Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Des Linden, 2018 Boston Marathon Winner

Episode Date: June 27, 2018

This week’s podcast is with Des Linden, a 2x Olympian, running the marathon for the U.S. in both the 2012 London Olympics and 2016 Rio de Janeiro Olympics.Her most significant achievement to date happened this year (2018) when she became the first American woman in 33 years to win the Boston Marathon.Prior to winning, she came in 4th last year (2017) and finished second by only two seconds in 2011 (a personal record at the time).Two seconds!Think about how crushing that could be. Everything you’ve worked so hard for is in striking distance only to miss by two seconds—if external outcomes are the primary measurement of success.Imagine the persistence and the mental fortitude required just to complete a marathon, then on top of that fight back and win the Boston Marathon seven years after having a PR but coming up just short of first place…That right there sets the tone for what this conversation is all about.We discuss everything from being comfortable with getting vulnerable, why she doesn’t get nervous before races, and how she manages her internal dialog.If there’s one thing I hope you take away from this conversation, it’s that Des is comfortable with who she is.In her words: “The thing I understand most is … myself”And having that understanding, that confidence is a very powerful thing._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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the marathon for the United States in both the 2012 Olympics in London and the 2016 Olympics in Rio de Janeiro. And I love learning from Olympians. There's just something about the way that they have organized and conducted their life and conducted their thinking that is extraordinary. And it's phenomenal. And the clarity is just so pure and crisp. And in this conversation, we talk about one of Des's more significant contributions to the sport and more significant achievements that she's experienced. And in 2018,

she became the first American woman in 33 years to win the Boston Marathon. And there's a story. There's always a story. There's a story leading up to that, which is she came in fourth place the year prior. And prior to that, in 2011, she came in second place by just two seconds. Just two seconds. Imagine that. Just two seconds and she PR'd. She had a personal record. So think about how crushing that could be. Everything you've worked for so hard is in striking distance only to miss it by two seconds. comes are the primary measurement of success. So that frames up this conversation about the real stuff underneath the straining and striving. And it is cool to talk about, no, I'm internally motivated. But what about when you're just two seconds away or you're just on the razor's edge of that external success as well? Like what really happens there? So imagine the mental fortitude and

persistence required just to complete a marathon. And then on top of that, fight back and win a Boston marathon seven years after having a PR. It's awesome. For me, this was a phenomenal conversation. I hope it was for you too, Des. And it just, the tone of this conversation is phenomenal. We discuss everything from being comfortable with getting vulnerable, the value in that. So not just saying it, but actually doing it and why she doesn't get nervous before races and how she manages her internal dialogue. And she's really clear about it. If there's one thing I hope you take away from this conversation is that Des is comfortable with who she is. And I think you just feel it.

Certainly it happened in the conversation, but I hope it jumps through the microphone here is that you just feel in the way that she responds, the care she took in her response, the way she chose her words and how she articulated them. She really does know who she is. And that's a phenomenal contribution to oneself really does know who she is. And that's a phenomenal contribution to oneself to really know who you are. And we're all on a journey. We're all trying to figure it out. And she just had a great way of explaining who she is. In her words, she says, the thing I understand most is myself. Imagine that. Imagine the thing you understand most. Imagine as being a highly tuned and finely tuned instrument and an instrument that cares about becoming better, but also being connected to others to do good for others. So that'll, that'll punch through this conversation

for sure. And having that understanding, you know, like where confidence comes from and how to build oneself. That's all threaded throughout this conversation. So with that, let's jump right into this conversation with Des Linden. How are you doing? I'm doing well. How are you? Yeah. Thanks for coming in. Yeah. Thank you for having me. This is, and I'm intrigued by what you do. Have you spent any time doing sport performance psychology? Did you, in your journey, have you spent time on the interior? I, um, that was actually what I wanted to go into before I got into running and realized I could do this as a profession. I, you know, I, I think there's so much value in the mind game and that makes the difference that bumps you to the next level.

We're all looking for the 1%, but we don't train our brain like we do the rest of our body. So I'm totally into it. Okay, now I'm going to get on the soapbox. All right, go for it. So there's three things as humans we can train. We can train our body, we can train our craft, and we can train our mind. And my experience has been that the best of the best of the best, either they're kind of born with ways where they have a natural inclination to deal with stress pretty well, maybe some sort of genetic coding,

or their environment was just extraordinary in the way that their parents raised them to deal with stress in a really good way, or they've conditioned their mind. And do you have a unique combination of those three? Or have you suffered from the first two and then trained your mind? Or what has been your experience on cultivating a strong, flexible, nimble mind? Yeah, I think I just learned at a really young age to be a student of my sport. And I had really great coaches and my parents always went out of their way to get us the best, put us in the best situation that they could afford to do. And then I learned from, you know, people who were spending so much time with us and it was study your craft. And then as I did that, I learned that it extended beyond just like practicing out in the yard. And so I have a lot of experience at it. At what?

At just studying sport. Okay. So early on, I want to get this right. Early on, your parents gave you access. Did you start running because your parents wanted you to run or did you start running because you liked the way it felt? I liked the sport. I was a soccer player first. Yes. And it was like, I'm really good at getting to the ball before everybody else. And like, like that's how I play soccer is being faster. Um, and being able to get to more spots on the field.

When you're five years old, you know, covering a lot of real estate just running around. Were you a good little athlete? Yes. At a young age? Always pretty athletic, yeah. When you think of genetic coding, and not to get technical on it, is your genetic coding wired in such a way that you have good eye-hand coordination? Or is it better that you have good eye hand coordination or is it better that you can you have a good cardio system is it better that you just have good fast twitch fibers or like when

you think about your genetic coding how do you think about the assets that you you didn't you didn't create them right right like you came into the world with them what do you think those yeah i mean i think i have the capacity to you know have a big engine um be cardiovascularly strong i do think i have good fast twitch but i also think starting sports so young um is i just started training at a young age. You're working on ball skills in soccer, and you're doing all these fast foot drills, and that builds that fast twitch. I started when I was five, and I did it all the way through high school. Did you get a lot of attention being young and being athletic for being a quote-unquote athlete? Not especially.

No. So when did people, when did adults, this is a when question and maybe that's not fair, but let's start that way. When did adults treat you differently? Because when did they start to treat you differently because of your athleticism? Yeah. I, when I played soccer, I was average. And then when I started running track and field, I was like a natural. Um, and it, you know, it's years of soccer. Do you remember that moment? Um, it would probably be like, not, not a specific moment. I can't say no exact moment. Do you remember a moment where

you gained favor from an adult because of your talent? I remember being praised, but I don't know if I was treated differently. It was just like, wow, this, this is really good. You could do this in high school or you could get a college scholarship or it was praised. And like, this is a path that you could take. Okay. So people didn't treat you special, like as if you were a road to their success. And so they're going to bend corners and is that a phrase bend corners? They're going to bend rules and work around corners to help you be more successful because they had some sort of vested interest in it.

You didn't have that. I mean, there might like, there might've been a point in high school where it was like, you're going to get a track scholarship. So let's make sure, um, we set you up, but also, I mean, you run well, the coach looks good. Uh, so maybe little things like that. Okay. There's some athletes, not all. That's why I was asking the question. There's a point in time when all of a sudden they are treated differently because they are a meal ticket. They are so extraordinary that people just want to be around the glow of them. Right. And you didn't have that. No, I was never that good.

I mean, people don't look at me and go super talented. They look at me and go hard worker. Okay. So I I'd love to hear how you think about this phrase, which is overachiever. Oh, she's an overachiever. Can you, I don't want to bias it at all. When you hear that phrase, what do you think? Uh, not like a, I don't think that's a really great thing to me. I'm like, that's the person who does just do exactly what you're supposed to do. You don't have, don't shortcut it, but more isn't better.

You know, it's, it's, if you do what you're supposed to do well, really, really well, it should be enough for what enough for what, for your success or to maximize your ability. How do you, okay. Those are two different phrases, success and maximize your ability. Is that how you define success or is there a different way you think about success? That's how I would define success. Maximizing your ability. My personal ability. Yeah. Okay. So you're not trying to be the best. You're trying to be your best. Yes. Yeah. Okay. And then how, so there's traps on both philosophies trying to become the best. The trap is that the eye is not on your eyes is not on the ball, right? You're looking at other people's thing that they're doing. Right. And you're comparison, you're comparing yourself so much that you can lose track of the right way to condition and train yourself. Right. Okay.

Trying to become your personal best, the trap in that, well, let me not load it. What do you, what have you found to be the trap there? Personally, I haven't found one. Um, I think the outside world says, well, you're not engaging in this competition. You're not like for us, it's, you're not racing the field. You're just doing your own thing and you happen to be out there. Um, I think it's tapping into the competition when it pulls you to your maximum performance and it's backing off from that component. If it is detrimental to you to your maximum performance. And it's backing off from that

component. If it is detrimental to you being your best you. How do you think about competition? I love it. I mean, that's what I'm about, but I think there's, and for my race, especially it's 26.2 miles. You have to gauge your fuel and your energy And it's knowing when to have competitors pull you along, but also knowing when that's detrimental to your own race day. If you get sucked into something that's above where you're capable of competing, um, it can crush your last six, 10 miles of a race. Yeah. And so that's that little moment when you're on pace, you're feeling good about it. And then someone, one of your competitors pulls right up beside you, gives you a wink and then takes off, right?

You're like, wait, wait, not, not, not like takes off, but like a subtle stride length longer than yours. And the competitor in most of us want to keep up for sure. The discipline says, no, no, no, I'm running my race. I'm running same with swimmers. I'm swimming my lane. And how have you created, okay, let me back up because this is where I'm coming from. One of the great fears for most humans is the fear of what other people think of us. Oh, you're laughing. I don't have that. I just don't care. You don't. Okay. Were you born that way? I guess. I don't know.

When I say born that way, like maybe this is me trying to sort it out. Maybe there's a genetic coding. We'd have to do some study. Did your parents teach you that? Most people, and by the way, I think most people say, no, no, no, no. I'm not afraid of what other people think. I don't have a fear of that. I'm free. I'm independent. And then you say, no, no, no, no. I'm not afraid of what other people think. I don't have a fear of that. I'm free. I'm independent. And then you say, okay, let's do something really risky and dangerous publicly. And most people clam up. Yeah, I guess it would depend what it is.

Like if it's something I'm interested in and wanted, you know, to get done. Like last year at Boston, it was, I put it on front street. I was like, I'm here to win the Boston marathon. Like that's the only thing that, yeah, like that's success. Anything else is failure. And I finished fourth and it was like super hard, but I would rather do that than say, I want to have a good time. I hope this is a lot of fun. Okay. So then help me understand like success in that model is I'm here to win, which is to be the best, but your primary driver is to be your best. Yeah. But sometimes it come competition day. It's like, I'm going to, I'm going to do whatever it takes.

You engage, you engage in a different way. Yeah. I mean, I think I just felt that me being my best was like top tier. Like I'm ready. You know, I don't think there's anyone else. If I run my best race, I don't think there's anyone else that can beat me. So it's pretty arrogant.

Yeah. It's good though, isn't it? Yeah. How do you know that? Cause this lies back to that first thought about the trap is that if you're cooking up your own recipe in your garage and it's called chicken soup, it doesn't matter right

and you're like this is great my family loves it that you know the neighborhood block loves it you know and this is my best soup and then you bring it out to some i don't know state competition of chicken noodle soups yeah and no one likes it you've missed the mark on what is maybe the important ingredient that you didn't even know existed. And so then the quality, the product that you believed was excellent is actually substandard. So that's the, the trap of being, becoming one's best is, is naivete and, or an excessiveness because we're not sure of what we're really capable of. Those are two of the traps on, on that philosophy that I've experienced. And the excessiveness is I want to be my best, but I don't know where my limits are.

So we push too deeply into fatigue. Yeah. How have you managed fatigue? Well, I've been at this 13 years now as a pro. And so I've seen every side of it probably. Um, and before the London Olympics, um, 2012, it was the thing where I'm trying to win a medal and like, it was result, result, result. Like I, this is the goal. Just a medal is going to make me happy. Um, and you don't know what your competitors are doing, but I know it's got, I have to be this good and which is better than I've ever been before. And I totally misjudged it. And I, uh, didn't make it to the start. I had a femoral fresh stress fracture. Um, and so, you know, you, you go to the well trying to be something that maybe you're not ready for. Um, and that was obviously huge, uh huge learning curve for me.

I mean, I learned a lot from that. And now it's like you can't just take the highest bar and shoot for that. You have to slowly build into things. But you learn. I mean, it's something that I am managing and learning from all the time. Would you agree that to become your very best, it's a requirement to push into the edges of your capacity? Yes. I think that's, you know, that's how we find boundaries and that's when we adjust accordingly. And then how do you do that? How do you do the, what boundaries are

you looking to push into? And then how do you do those? Yeah. For me, it's, you know, it's balancing speed and strength. And so for marathoners, it's a volume. I can get up to 130 miles a week. Um, but as you do that, you start getting a little bit slower. Like the turnover slows down, the fast Twitch stuff starts getting lost. And so then it's going back and working on that. And it's a balancing act between strength and speed and, um, using those to find your sweet spot of when you're your fastest. Do you have a coach? Yes. Do you keep track of what you're doing? I do. Yeah. Yeah. And then, okay. So that's on the physical side. That's more like some technical stuff, right? Um, power and speed. What are some of the other edges that you lean into that to find your razor's edge, your capacity? It's mostly physical. I mean, I'm not.

So I thought you were going to say that. So I'd like to learn a little bit about how you're maybe not purposely doing it, but leaning in emotionally or mentally. They're not the same, right? So emotionally, what is the toughest thing about being a marathoner from an emotional standpoint? You invest three, four months, um, and you get one day and then you have to figure out what it all means afterwards. And if you're doing it right, for me, what I do is I'm trying to win these races or maximize my ability. And so I believe I'm at the top level every time. Um, and I have to buy into that idea. I can be a champion. Um, this is what it's going to look like. This is what it's going to feel like. This is what it's going to smell and taste

like while I'm out there. And you live with that idea for three, four months till you get to the line. And then when you finish, you have to put reality to what you've been attached to for, you know, three, four months and make sense of it all. So the emotional risk is let down. Absolutely. The emotional risk is the feeling that comes with the imaginary images that you've had not matching the reality of what is right. So in some ways it's a loss of innocence. It's a good way to put it. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Like in your mind, you create this image of

how beauty could look. And then when you finally get faced with it, it's like, Oh boy, it was a lot uglier than I thought. Not what I thought it would be. Yeah. Okay. And so I think when I, when I think about the emotional stuff for me, when I think about world-class and multiple domains of business or arts or sport and my own life included is that it is vulnerability, right? The vulnerability to say say or do and to line those two things up, um, with the knowing that it might not work out, whether that's love life or the love of, you know, your passions running or otherwise. So how do you strengthen? Are you, do you have the ability to be vulnerable? Yeah. Do you think you're pretty good at better than many.

No, I mean, I think I've, I'm fair at it. I don't think I'm necessarily great. I wouldn't say it's a strong point, but I'm okay with it. You're okay with it. Yeah. How have you developed the ability to be okay with it? Um, probably, well, it's just experience having done it a few times and realizing like, I'm going to have to process some things afterwards, but I'm okay. Like I have great relationships and the people around me still love me whether or not I achieved and, um, you know, everything's fine. I'm still alive. Like, it's just a little bit of perspective about what I'm doing, um, and the result. And then like, I'm okay.

I really believe you. Like there's a lot of power behind that thought that I'm okay. I don't need to do something extraordinary to be extraordinary. What are you feeling right now? Pretty content. Yeah. Is this what contentment looks and sounds like for you? You're making me a little nervous. Yeah. No, no. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, I'm pretty content. Okay. So let's talk about the nervousness. What is the nervousness coming from?

Cause in my mind, you're the expert in you. Yeah. No, for sure. You just have this look like. Well, but this look, the awkward moment I just had was I was like trying to calibrate and feel like what is actually happening for you. And it was that piece. Yeah. Yeah. I'm pretty comfortable.

How have you developed the right to say I'm okay without having extraordinary results? Like I'm okay if I lose, if I whatever. And it sounds like your community is really important. Absolutely. I mean, I think it's just not being attached to things, you know, that's very Zen or whatever. But if everything were gone tomorrow, I could rebuild and it would be totally fine. And, you know, this is kind of a tangent, but my husband and it would be totally fine. And you know, we, this is kind of a tangent, but my husband and I always, it's like, if someone robbed our household,

we were gone. What's the one thing that you'd be super disappointed about? And I, there's nothing like it's fine. Like everything's replaceable. Everything's rebuildable. It's not stuff. Um, and it's the same thing with the results. If they happen, it's amazing, but I don't need them to feel satisfied with my life. I have a lot of amazing things going on. How do you answer the question? Who are you? I mean, I usually define myself as a runner. I'm not getting that actually. Really? Yeah.

Well, here's the list I would give you. I would say runner, dog lover, travel enthusiast, book nerd, music junkie. So I'm well-rounded. Okay. How many eggs are in the running basket? I mean, right now. If there's a dozen eggs. Yeah.

Right now, like nine. Nine. Yeah. So you're chipped in pretty well. Yeah. Okay. And you're saying that nine out of 12 are into running and if running doesn't pan out, you're okay. Yeah. I think I'm fine. I mean, I think I'm, and maybe it's overconfidence, but I think I'm pretty bright. And I think that if I didn't, if I brought those nine eggs back, I could put them somewhere else and they would do just as well or better. You know, like there's a lot of options for me.

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it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com and use the code Findingmastery20 at felixgray.com for 20% off. So I want to get to some philosophies that are guiding your life. And then I also want to understand what it's like to grow up with a sister who's a therapist. I'm into that. Yeah. What does that mean? Growing up with a sister? Yeah.

That's a therapist. She's looking at me. I want to say it's kind of funny because she's a family therapist. And I feel like the things that our parents were, and this is not a knock cause they were great parents, but the things that maybe they struggled with were communicating and like having really good, like family values. Um, the things that they weren't awesome at, we've gravitated towards to figure out why, you know, like my parents hate to travel. Um, my sister and I travel somewhere crazy off the charts every year, every time we can. And so it's like, oh, this was kind of missing.

And so we just gravitate towards that. And I feel like with her as a family therapist, I see the things that she maybe wishes were different in our life. And I can totally relate. And, um, so it makes a ton of sense. It's just, we're just learners. I feel like we're learners. What are you craving most? Just experiences. So as a learner coming from a family system of strong values, suspect communication, maybe, you know, obviously there's no real roadmap to parenting and it's hard. You know, it's, it's really tricky. And that being said, they had some core values in place and what you're craving most of all

is experiences. And what is, I don't want to lead you anywhere. I just really want to know what that means. Yeah. I think, um, it's seeing the world and understanding as much as possible, learning as much as possible about cultures, people, life. I don't want to feel sheltered or locked into one place or like this is right. This is how you should do things. This is the best.

Just want to keep an open mind and allow different experiences to shape how I think and how I believe. Okay. Global citizen open. Yeah. One experiences want to push your capacity. You sound like this, like perfect human. Prove me wrong. That's good. I have a feeling that's where we're going. No, I'm not. Again, it's water. Right. Gather yourself.

What was the candy bar? Like just shove a twix. Was it twix? Like shove a twix in your mouth. Was it twix or was it something else? Kit Kat or something. Yeah. All right. So I have a thought that it's through pain is why we change and uncomfortableness is how we grow.

So I'd like to understand. Tell me if I'm wrong on that, like if you don't agree with that and you don't have to agree with it by any means. But you've hit on a couple of philosophies for me that have been central for me is that there's an operating philosophy for many people that I need to do more to be more. I need to do extraordinary things to be extraordinary. And what I've been talking about lately is that best in the world are undoing that philosophy. And they say, no, no, no, no, no. I need to be me. I need to be grounded, be authentic, be present, be here now, and let the doing flow from there.

And that's where capacity is expressed. That's where wisdom is revealed. That's where high performance happens, like the being first. And unfortunately people don't teach us about that, how to be authentic, be yourself, be present in rugged environments. Okay. So you didn't know, but when you were speaking, I was like, Oh yeah, yeah, there it is. There it is. That's really good. Okay. So then how about the pain and uncomfortableness? What has been the pain sources in your life? I mean, falling short isn't easy. That's always hard. I guess anytime someone betrays trust, that's painful. Yeah, I think that's probably the most painful thing is when you buy into someone and you believe. And then I don't want to say you find out maybe it was a lie

or it doesn't look like what you thought it was. Maybe. Yeah. No, you didn't have to say maybe like I'm not in my head. I'm thinking, yeah, I'm just kind of working through it. There's some, there's someone or something in your mind right now. You don't have to talk about it, but like, do you want to talk about it? We can see where it goes. I don't, I mean, I don't want to name names. No, I wouldn't expect that. Yeah. Maybe. Yeah. Right. I don't know anyone that you know, but okay. Was it an intimate relationship or was it a work relationship? Was it a friendship? Um, work and friendship. Yeah. And how did you manage that? I'm imagining that they said and sold something to you as a concept or idea in a relationship that could be.

You bought into it and you found out that that wasn't what it actually was. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think it was all on the same page for a very long time. And then business trumped values and that was disappointing. How'd you manage it? Still working on it.

Are you? Yeah. When you talk about it, where does it live in your body? Right here-ish. In your chest and throat? Yeah, tight chest, tight throat, yeah. Did you feel it pop up into that space as we're talking? Yeah, for sure.

And then how did you manage that as we were speaking? What did you do with the emotional sense of vulnerability that is housed in your body, in your chest? Yeah, I mean, I just take a deep breath through it and then I try to go to what I do have, you know? Um, is that what you did in your mind? So your body, I saw you take a breath, but then you're, and you use laughter as well. Yeah. And then, and then, but you did something with your mind. You went to, you use almost like an optimistic framework to say, well, hold on now. That is true. And I've been hurt, but, or, and I also have these other things that are really good. Right. Does that minimize the pain or does that provide a pathway for you to deal with it? I think it's a pathway. It's a pathway. How do you minimize pain? And I'm asking you this really tough question because as a elite

runner at distance, you have to deal with physical pain. But right now we're talking about emotional pain. So I think you do know how to deal with pain pretty well. Yeah. Do you agree with that? Yes. Physical pain? Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. So then emotionally, how do you, what was my question? How do you minimize it? But I'm not. No, no, no, no. I don't want to know how you minimize it. Like how, how do you deal with pain? I think you just know it's going to be there and you sort through it as

you, as you need to. And you, it's okay. Like it's okay to, to be hurt and, um, to be confused and not have the answer. Like you have to just be okay. Like this could take a while. I love that from a, from a distance runner, like this could take a while. Story of my life. Yeah. What does that mean? Story of my life? Well, I'm a distance runner. I was wondering if like, did you get results right out of the gate? No, no, you did not. Everything's been long term, the long game. Um, I'm, I know patients, I know patients very well. In modern times, people have 24 access Insta to everything, right? Global rhythms and the new currency is attention. Yeah. And so how have you, how can you teach about patients? How can

you, I don't want to grab you by your ankles and turn you upside down and shake out like these insights, but what you've authentically learned is rare for many. So can you help us understand patience? I guess if I was trying to get someone to be interested in it or want to learn about it, I would point to the results first and say, this is the reward, which is amazing. And that's how you get people's attention. What is the reward? For me, I mean, that's, that's winning Boston. You know, that's the pinnacle of the sport. And then you look back. Is that a world championship?

Is that like a world? How do you classify Boston? Yeah, there's Abbott World Majors, Marathon Majors, and there's the six biggest marathons in the world. And Boston is one of them. But it's probably the most prestigious. It is. What are the other five? London, Tokyo, Chicago, New York, Berlin, and Boston. Cool.

And why is that one so prestigious? It's 122 years old. It's the first ski marathon. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. So you say, listen, patience got me to have this amazing outcome. Sure. I think it's part of my recipe, if you will. Okay. So you say, listen, patience got me to have this amazing outcome. I think it's part of my recipe, if you will. Okay. And then how, how do you, how do we develop patience?

Yeah. I mean, you have to want the reward and know that it's not happening overnight. In fact, it's not happening for, for me, it was 13 years, 13 years, and there's no guarantee, but if you love, if you can learn to love what you're doing, if you learn to love the process, um, then it's super easy to be patient. Speak on it because I, okay. Do you ever get nervous? Yes. Do you get nervous? Do you get nervous before a marathon, whether it's the Olympics or Boston or London or whatever? Is there nervousness there? It's nervous, excited, but it's that 98% excited,

2% nervous. Yeah. So I want to run this by it. This is a thought I have about nervousness is that let's use a clinical lens for a minute. Anxiety is an excessive worry about what could go wrong, a disorganized way of relating to the present because we're over consumed with all the things that could go awry. And 15% report it to have a mental disorder called anxiety. I think the number is probably 30% or higher underreported. So three out of 10 people potentially have a disorder, a mental disorder called anxiety. And then when you add high stress environments on top of most people, they spill over, right? They're like internal arousal system spill over and they become a shell of themselves or they abandon their body of work.

Okay. Because of an anxious mind, they abandoned. My experience has been people that are, love what they do. Like what you said, love what they do. They're not trying to get it over with. Exactly. So I don't, but you're in a unique situation. Like, are you trying to get the race over with? Are you trying to get training over with, or are you, do you just love it? Like, listen, this is what I do. Yeah. I mean, it would be a lie to say that there are times where I don't want it to just be done.

There's a lot of days where you're like, it's, it's actually work. Um, but when I'm performing optimally is when I'm enjoying what I'm doing. And if things are going well in training, I'm super excited to get to the start line. Some people do, they're like, I hope I'm just not going to think about the race. And then, you know, when it gets here, I'll be ready. Or like, I'm so nervous. I don't want to like, you know, look at any news about the race. That's not you.

No, I'm like, this is the, this is Christmas morning. Am I getting socks and underwear or a new bike? You know, like, well, and I get to choose, I get to go out and make it happen. So I'm, I'm excited on race morning. Okay. I can't, I can't, I can't agree with you more that that's the way it feels in my life. Yeah. Yes. There's hard things to do. Like there's mechanical things I don't want to do. You don't have to ask me to read another research article. I love it to, to spend time with a world-class person trying to solve something difficult, especially at stakes where if things go wrong, we all suffer. Right.

Well, period. Everyone involved and loved ones when things go wrong. So how do you help people understand how to create more of that love in their life? That's a good question. I mean, for me, it's just, it sounds like a cop-out, but it's a lead by example. Like I'm super comfortable in how I do things and with myself. And I've found this love for running and, um, hasn't always made sense. Like, you know, I'm not the superstar, but I took a chance and decided to make it something I was going to do

every day. It doesn't have to be your career. It can just be something that you find joy in and just go do it, make time for it. Yeah. You, You really do have an authentic way about you. The way that you choose words, the way that you're being contemplative and thinking, you're not rushed. You're not trying to say just something to be trendy or popular or liked. And earlier you started the conversation saying, I really don't care what people think. I really believe that for you right now. How? How have you created?

What have been one, two, three important parts in your life that have helped you just not give a shit about what binds so many of us? Yeah. I think the biggest thing is by being me, I've found the people who appreciate me. You know, it's like it's easy to be around the people I want to be around that appreciate me and the people that don't like what I'm putting out. Well, that's easy, too. Like, we don't have to be friends. Like, it's okay.

It's okay for someone to not like you or to not get somebody. And, you know, by being yourself, you draw in the people that can appreciate it. And so I have these really great relationships, um, with people around me because I don't ever have to play a part. This person, I have to act like this and this person, I have to put on that mask. Um, it's just, I'm me and they know what it is. And every relationship is authentic and genuine and it's not, um, you know, chit chat about the weather. It's like you catch up and then you talk about something meaningful, uh, for the most part. So I can't tell you how much I think the world needs what you just described. And that being said, the journey of self-discovery to really understand who your authentic self is and to have clarity of that.

So I have got a model that I like to think about from clarity to conviction. So clarity first, who am I? And then to lead a life of conviction that is principle-based i need to develop my mind because to do that i need to be that person in hostile rugged high consequence environments which is why i spent so much time trying to understand because you know what happens for most people i don't know if you know this but most people they haven't done the lonely work the alone based work to figure out who they are. Right. So they're operating from a model of approval and then come the times when that they're, they get tested,

they don't know what to do. And so they resort back to some weird behavior strategy. Right. That's not you. I don't think so. I think that, you know, I think the approval comes from me, right? Like how did you do this? Like, I'd love to know an experience in your life that led you to this. It's really powerful. I don't, do you know, do you, so I'm on the other side of this conversation going, Oh my God, this is like the gold dust from where the gold is coming from. And I want to get to the gold. No, I appreciate your approval.

That was funny. Yeah, that's good. Carol Day. Yeah. I'm laughing way too hard at my own joke. But they're silent laughs. They're really silent laughs.

Okay. So give me a, give me a, a moment in your life that helped shape that for you. I think I've seen people do it wrong. Like, you know, I've watched people try to impress or try to be something that they're not, or try to, you know, where even like for me, like clothes that I don't feel comfortable in, I just feel like it's the worst. Like, um, I'm a jeans and t-shirt girl. And so when I have to put on like something other than that, I'm like, I feel like so fake and makeup. And it's not, I'm not saying

it's, you can't dress up, you can't do that. Um, but if I'm not, if there's not a reason for it, it's not what I'm gravitating towards. It's just like, I'm going to put on my best, most comfortable. So I just, I value comfort. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day. And Cozy Earth has become a new part of that. Their bedding, it's incredibly soft, like next level soft.

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you'll be interested in. A shampoo, conditioner, and a hair serum. With Caldera Lab, it's not about adding more. It's about choosing better. And when your day demands clarity and energy and presence, the way you prepare for it matters. If you're looking for high-quality personal care products that elevate your routine without complicating it, I'd love for you to check them out. Head to calderalab.com slash findingmastery and use the code code finding mastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash finding mastery. Okay. How do you answer the question? Who am I? Because earlier when we were talking about it, you talked about the things you enjoy doing and then at your center, who are you? I think I'm an introvert who has a very tight-knit group of friends who wants to learn a lot from those people and just kind of be the best I can be with my own values.

When you are your best, what comes next? Let's say it was a magic wand. You got it. Then what? Haven't thought that far. I don't know if it ever happens. Like, I don't know if that, that, that condition we just talked about, but there's an interesting theory in psychology.

And there's a question called the miracle question. If a miracle happened tonight and everything that you ever wanted for took place while you're sleeping, but your bank account didn't change. It's not like you have more money in a bigger house or whatever, but potentially everything you ever wanted for changed overnight. How would you notice it? This, this happened. This happened to me. This, that's, um, for me, that's Boston, you know, that's the one. And I, I wanted to win that race to, and maybe this is a contradiction, but to validate my career, like I didn't, I wasn't wasting my time, um, believing in myself that I could do this was, you know, worth it. So on and so forth. And maybe that's the one, like not one, I'm sure there's

many, but that maybe that's the vain thing where like I needed that moment to feel content. Um, and so that, that's, maybe that's my miracle moment. And, you know, where did that come from? Cause that doesn't fit your model. Yeah. You know, so like if we pulled on that thread just a little bit, the, and the thread that I'm pulling on right now, cause I, I love that you're aware of the contradiction and, and the authentic authenticity in that is like, okay, we all got chinks, but I really needed a win to feel good about. I really needed this win. And, and then I want to ask you about the win in a minute, but where do you think that comes from? Yeah. So another contradiction for sure is that I've always been this underdog, but I've always believed in myself. And I guess for, to a degree, I wanted people to know what I thought I was capable of all along. Um,

so it was, I didn't need it, but it was super rewarding to have it. You know, I want to share this moment with you. So part of the Seattle Seahawks organization, and we got to the Superbowl back to back. Yeah. And the first one we won the second one, we won in different ways, but we didn't get the outcome we wanted. And, and so at the end, coach Carol, there was this, a moment where he brings everyone together and just a great little experience in the locker room. And he says, and I won't share things in the locker room, but this is one that is so significant and it fundamentally changed my life. And so I want to share about this.

He brings everyone together and he says, and everyone's like staring at each other. There's all that testosterone that you can imagine in celebration and he says okay now we have we just won the super bowl now we have what everybody wants and i was staring like a doe-eyed like oh no oh no is he gonna say like we have the trophy that's not whatever that I want. And he says, he pauses and he says, the knowing of what it takes for us to be our collective best. Freaking awesome. Isn't that great? It's great. The knowing of what, so you

is, is it, that's why I was asking the question to pull on that thread a little bit. Cause now you have the knowing where before it was just imagination. Is that right? Go back to our first part of the conversation. So now you have the knowing of what it takes to be your very best on the day that you were being tested. Right. Okay.

What goes into you being your very best? Um, yeah, a ton of hard work miles and miles it's um 130 miles a week hard workouts eating right sleeping right mile one is harder than mile 130 120 what'd you say 120 130 miles 130 miles what's harder mile one or mile 130 different on different weeks. Sometimes it's mile one. Um, yeah, I mean, there's, there's a lot that goes into it, but also, um, again, committing to that, believing in yourself for X amount of time and knowing that there's no guarantee. It's not, it's not about justice. You can do everything right and not get the reward. Um, and in fact, that's more often what happens. You know, every, everyone has worked hard. Everyone's done everything they

could to be their best on the day. So, um, it's not about justice. You use imagery, right? And are you disciplined with your performance imagery? No, no. So is it haphazard? Like when you're walking down the street and you think about what running mile, whatever would feel like and look like, and the start of the race, what it looks like and feels like, or is it more disciplined? Like you do it before you go to bed, you do it quiet moments throughout the day. No, it just happens. It's not planned. And a lot of it's during training for sure. During the hard times during training. Could I offer you a thought?

Yeah. What if you were disciplined about that? I have been. You have been disciplined? In the past, I have. Like 10 minutes at a time, 15, 20 minutes at a time, you lock in for... Yeah. Do the meditation. Well, not necessarily meditation, but just performance imagery, just seeing and feeling it.

Yeah. And you don't like it? It didn't get you the results you wanted. It did. I just have been a little more lax on it as of late. I mean, I go through phases with it, just like training. I know I should eat my vegetables and fresh. I know it works. I absolutely a hundred percent buy into it. Are you skilled at it? Am I skilled at it? Yeah. Imagery. That's a skill for sure. I don't think so. I mean, I just do it cause it helps me. What is your internal narrative?

Like your conversation with yourself? With the imagery? No, just like with you and you. Yeah. Self-talk is what we're talking about. Yeah. If we could write, if we could see your thoughts, this is technology.

Yeah. If I could download in two buckets, positive, negative, something cheesy like that, you know, productive and destructive or whatever it might be, which column are you winning in? Conflicted. There's just a mixed bag. It's probably 50, 50 split and it's recognizing what needs to be thrown away and saying this stuff matters and this stuff doesn't. What is the, so thoughts lead to thought patterns, thought patterns eventually turn into habits of mind, right? Like the things that aren't what we call slip into the non-conscious. What is the, what are some thought patterns

that really work for you and some thought patterns that don't work? Yeah. I mean, I think it's kind of cheesy, but my whole mantra this last 10 months has been keep showing up. And that just kind of opens the conversation of like, well, like why, you know, um, why am I showing up today? And it can go two ways where you're like, I'm just tired. I don't, not going to get anything out of this. And you have to start, you have to start and try. And so it makes me get in that habit. But it also makes me really think about what the intent of the day is. Like what's the purpose of today? And how can I get the best out of what I need to do today?

And maybe it is taking a day off. Maybe it's actually what I need to do is take a day off. And showing up today means sitting on the couch, taking a nap, so on and so forth. So it's creating that conversation. How do you know that? How do you know that's back to the fatigue thing and the under recovery over straining? How do you know when you're supposed to take a day off or you're just being mentally lazy? Yeah. Is it, is it physical feedback that you're getting? I think that's the hardest the hardest thing to figure out.

Especially for people who care. Yeah. I think when I'm absolutely exhausted to the point where I don't want to go out for a run, I have to really look at that and say I'm driven. I know this goal matters. There's a reason why. And usually it's a couple of days in a row where you're like, I might, I just don't want to do this today. And if I get into that rhythm, it's, you know, then it's like, well, maybe there's a reason I should just take a day off. Cause

I love my job and yeah, it's hard sometimes, but if I don't come back from a run thinking, wow, that was good. I feel better. Like you should almost always come back and be like, Ooh, I'm glad I did that. You know, that's the thing. Like you should almost always come back and be like, Ooh, I'm glad I did that. You know, that's the thing. Like no one comes back from a run and goes, man, I wish I hadn't done that. And if I have a couple of days, like that sucked, that wasn't even worth it. Then there might be something else. I want to know your negative thought patterns that don't work. I don't know if we talked about that. We talked about the positive ones, which was, um, you know, that would drive you back to purpose and intent.

And then do you have any thoughts that fall into that negative bucket, if you will, that you know, don't work for you? I would imagine if you have it, many people have these types of thoughts. I think it's getting too locked in on maybe just not going in with an open mind. Like I got to hit this workout. And if the first splits, not where it needs to be, then the day is just like, well, this is done. And you kind of just pack it in. Um, so like all or nothing black and white type of thought patterns that, and maybe even thinking too far ahead, you know, like, uh, have six more miles left and they're all going to suck because this first one did, and this is already hard and it's only going to get

worse. So taking a small piece of information and generalizing it to like for the future. And then do you, what is your critical voice? Like self, there's two types of criticalness, critical of the behavior and then critical of like you self-critical versus critiquing i mean i think both at times you can i can look at how loud is it how loud is self-critique and maybe it's a volume of one to ten it's like like a two, a one, an eight. I think it can be eight, but for a very short time. Is that how it works for you? It's like, hey, this is a disaster.

Or, you know, I can be really upset or angry or pissed at myself for X amount of time. And then it's like, all right, that's not helping. And then how do you recognize that so clearly and or adjust eloquently? Yeah, I think it's just having perspective, you know, like whatever is bringing you down is fixable and just finding the lesson in it and trying to make it productive. Is there a moment in time that comes up for you that you were racing, you were in your event and you're really struggling with your narrative, your dialogue, your relationship with yourself. I feel like last year's Boston mid race where I had it pictured as going like, I'm going to win this year.

I'm going to win. And, um, it was Edna Kiplegott took off at mile 17 and was just absolutely dominating. And it was like the last four months of like just shattered. And you still have a lot of miles to go to process this, to really think about what's going on. And, um, I tried to be as positive as possible. Maybe they'll come back, maybe they'll come back. But ultimately I was like running my ass off and I'm just getting lit up. Like this is, I'm wasting my time. Like I shouldn't be doing this. I'm wasting my time. Like I'm never going to win one of these. How loud was it? Pretty loud. Pretty loud. And it lasted a while. That's the, I mean, I think that's,

I don't know if we talked about this, but after that race, you're really hard time bouncing back. And I basically took a big chunk of time off from running where I was like, I don't love this anymore. You know? And if I don't want to run, I'm not going to, you know, if I do, maybe I will. And is this the race you won prior year, prior the year. So the year before mile 17, you're getting your ass handed to you and you're beating yourself up. Yeah. And you said, okay. And they never came back. You never closed the gap. I finished fourth. I mean, and I was just like, this sucks.

But I was fourth at the Boston Marathon, which many people would just be really thrilled about. Why did it suck? Because I wanted to win and I viewed it as a failure. Okay. So that's complicated. Yeah. Was it your best that day? Yes. And your best was not good

enough. Exactly. So you reached your first level of your goal, but, but not the comparative goal. Right. So the comparative gold matters more to you. It sounds like on race day, how you stack up against others. Yeah, it did that day. I mean, and usually I would be pretty content, but I felt like I really felt like that was the best I was going to be like ever. Like I'm so ready. This is, this is what you try to do. Like how I'm here to find out how good I can be. And like, I think that's enough to be the best. And it was all there. And then I just got my ass handed to me. Why'd you finish? Why didn't you pull out? I think you always hope that someone will come back. And honestly, I want him at paycheck.

I mean, I'm a business person too, man. Do you get paid for finishing? Yes. And then if you have to pull out for an injury, do you get paid? Some. But not everything? Yeah, some. Yeah.

I think that's most competition competition sure yeah okay i want i i want to know what you did to stay in it did you just suffer or did you say god no no better thoughts better thinking one one one one foot at a time here we go listen to the birds what what did you do to stay with that? It was a bit of a wrestling match. I mean, it's like maybe they'll come back. And having a good race there and knowing I'm still trying to get the best out of myself, that was the whole thing. Like just do the smile and see how it goes. And like I'm looking at my watch, like I'm not having a

bad day. Like this is a good day. It's just, they're way better. Um, but I think I would have been absolutely, it would have been a huge mistake to step off. Like I never even considered that. And it was just like, this is not what I saw happening today. You sound like you've got an optimistic framework. Like part of your psychological framework is optimism. That's kind of surprising to me. Yeah, no, that's true. I think I'm a realist, but what does that mean?

It's a touch of hope. Yeah, I think I just am very practical. So you can be, I love this conversation. As soon as I say the word optimism, I think optimism, by the way, no punches pulled here is at the center of mental toughness, which is like, no, no, no, it's going to get better. No, no, I'm staying in it. Let's go. And so that allows you to keep enduring the difficult because of this framework that no, I got hope it's going to work. I just got to stay in it and stick in it. And when that happens over time, stuff ends

up working out. But pessimism, I don't know a world changer that is pessimistic. Yeah. Pessimism is like the future is going to suck. Right. I don't know. Do you? I think hopeful was like having hope was the right word. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And yeah, it's just to me, it's always like, maybe, maybe. Maybe. It could. It could. So that's optimism though. Right. That really is the belief that the future is going to work out in some way. Yeah. Like something good is right around the corner. Who taught you that? How'd you develop that? Gosh, probably had to be playing sports as a kid. Just like could be your game, you know?

Can you think of one of the most difficult moments in your life? And you don't have to go into deep weeds, but can you think about one of those moments and what is the concept around it? Give me, give me an example. So what do you mean about the concept? Well, was it like a health thing? I don't know. Like, what is the heart? Where's what's the hardest thing you've been through? Some health stuff. Say it again.

Health. Health. Yeah. Which is what does that mean? Oh, for me, it was not being able to do my job. The thing that defines me running because I was hurt. At a really critical time. What do you mean critical time for finances or for reputation? Um, no, I mean, I would say probably a really good example was

going into the London Olympics and knowing I had like this pain, which I didn't know what it was. And it was like, it's tendonitis. And it's like, I can run through that. That's fine. Like it's not tendonitis, but not knowing until afterwards, it was a stress fracture. And so just feeling like I can't do what I'm supposed to do, but it's like the biggest day of my career and not having hope, not, not going and thinking, I could get this done, or it might go that way. Or, you know, just that feeling that I love about competing and getting to the start line, all of that was gone. And it was just sort of miserable. How'd you change from that pain? Took a long time.

I mean, I think I learned a lot about patience after that. That was a big part of it. Were you over-training? Yeah, for sure. Out of anxiety? No, I think I was excited. I mean, I think I wanted to be the best I could be and just didn't respect the limits. How about shifting gears just quickly?

What the thing I understand most is. Myself. Yourself. Yeah. Is there a word that cuts to the center of who you are? I would say simple. Is there a word that cuts to the center of what you're craving for most experience? Yeah. And learning was something else you said earlier. Yeah. Pressure comes from myself. The crossroad of my life was?

Deciding what career I wanted. It all comes down to? Sounds cheesy, but now. Now. It's just this moment. How do you train and condition yourself to be in this moment more often? I think meditation helps. I mean, I do that to a tiny degree, but I read a lot of sports psychology books and try to create tactics. And I think there's a flow state and it happens.

You know, that's that's when you perform optimally. So it's finding how to be between two breaths, between two thoughts that still point. The space between. Yeah. Completely trainable. Meditation is great. It's, I'd say, necessary but not sufficient. I think it's really important to do to become more aware, but it's not enough alone.

Yeah. There's some other stuff that's got to be involved in it. And how many minutes are you talking about doing a day or what's your practice look like of meditation? It's not very structured and just maybe 15 minutes here, 30 minutes there. Just, you know, is it more single point focus or more contemplative? Probably contemplative. Just watching thoughts. Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. Last kind of handful of questions here is, I want to know how the best me in a specific moment. And that doesn't mean it's getting the best result or, you know, being the best in the world. It's on that day and in that moment I'm performing optimally. And, you know, I feel like it's just happening. It's not forced. It's just I've mastered the craft for that day. How are you doing in this conversation relative to your definition of mastery?

In this conversation? Okay. I mean, no, I think it's been insightful. I've learned a lot about myself here today. Have you? Yeah. I've learned a lot about you too. That's easier, isn't it? What did you learn about yourself? I think that they're just the things that shaped me, you know, kind of digging into past stuff and talking about family stuff is always interesting. So I think that that's an area that I could spend more time on myself if I wanted to be a better me, um,

really hashing through that. It's complicated being in a child. That's an adult. It's, it's, are your parents alive? Yes. Yeah.

My parents are alive as well. It's, it's complicated. I think it's really hard for most people. Yeah. And so I can relate. Yeah. I wish it weren't that way, but it's, it can be tricky and very hard. Cool. All right. Uh, where can we find you? Where can we follow you? I know, you know,

tell us about your book and tell us about social media and tell us about all of that. Yeah. I'm on Twitter. Des Linden, Des underscore Linden, and Instagram. I put some great pictures up, I think. Of you? Yes, the selfies. I'm really into those. Are you into selfies? Please approve.

I need the likes. This has all been a lie. I've been waiting for this plug. That's really, yeah. No, I try to put nature shots, but pictures of my dogs. That's it. No book yet, but if I get a book, man, we'll have to come here and plug it. What are you, what are you caring for it as a message as an ambassador for being great? Yeah.

I think my rally cry the last couple months has been keep showing up and it's not a running thing. It's an everyday thing and everything in life. Um, give yourself a chance, you know, and that's, you just keep showing up and when it's hard, show up, give yourself a chance when it's going great, keep showing up and see how far you can push it. And that's just kind of been for me, what I've been telling myself and along the way it started to resonate with other people. And I realized, yeah, this is actually a great message. Just kind of put out there and remind people keep showing up. So I've been studying psychology for a long time and I know you've been reading a lot of books and I don't, I want this, I don't want this to come off wrong, but do you have any questions

that you might want to ping off of me that, um, are, I don't know, hard questions or confusing or whatever that, uh, I might have a resource or a reference for you. That's like a good question. Cause I'm sure I have a ton that as soon as I leave, I'm going to be like, dang, I wish. So let's do this. We'll do it on social. Come into the Finding Mastery Tribe. Okay. We can have some conversations there. There'll be thousands of people listening and watching. But we can do it that way as well.

Okay. And they'll have questions for you too now. Yeah. But it's a strong community that they are building. Finding Mastery Tribe has been a lot of fun. That's the best way to do it, to tease through it with other people. And we're all kind of going through something. Use it.

Forget. I want to share on that thought. Like we are. No one does this alone. We are relational. We are connected. We are vulnerable in so many ways. And it's hard.

And when we try to protect our ass rather than take care of others, it goes sideways pretty quickly, pretty, you know, very often. So the fact that you're saying like that, and I just want to add a thought and hear you bounce off of it is that my wife says to me all the time, she says, you know, we're just trying to figure it out. It just gives me so much peace, you know? So for me, like when you hear that, what do you hear? We're just trying to figure it out. I love that people have questions. I mean, I love that we can come here and have this conversation and it's not like I'm going to lecture you or this is how you should think. We're all sorting it out. There's no one path to mastery. It's a million and it's find yours and let's help each other get there because everyone gets a boost when someone's doing really good things.

That's gold. Okay, good. All right. So thank you for your time. Thank you for lending your voice and your words and your ways and being able to share where you've been and where you're going and what is next for you. Well, thank you for having me. And, and I gotta get back in shape, get back in shape. I've been, I've been busy at a work off a beer get that's okay. Um, and then maybe a marathon this fall. So that'll be fun. It's in the works.

Is it? Yeah. Beautiful. I got one question before we jump. Okay. Maybe, and maybe, gosh, I can't believe I've wasted this long. So I'm going to, there's an island, Catalina, right? So, okay. So I'm going to do a standup paddle from Catalina. I think it's like 36 depending on the currents. And do you have any guiding thoughts about, from your perspective about what happens at mile 30 when I'm fried? Yeah. I mean, nutrition will be huge, obviously. So stay on top of that. But we say this all the time and I'm looking at Josh Cox, my agent, but it's a, remember your why, you know, when things get hard, you have the decision to bail or you can tap into your why.

And it could be a million different things. Maybe it's your family. You know, maybe it's the time you spent training and you skipped out on a birthday or whatever. But think about the things you've sacrificed to get there and remember why you signed up. Why did I sign up for this? And use that to fuel you. Love it. And if it's say it's 36 without current, what, what distance should I look for some evidence that I could actually make the 36? Um, I have no idea on a, on a paddling, but

I know it is different, but how do you do it on foot? I don't, I mean, I don't think about what's left, but that for me is key. Cause I think, Oh no, I meant in training. In training. Yeah. Um, yeah. Paddling's. It is different. I know, I know that, but just for your model. Yeah. You're not running a full marathon the day before a marathon to know that you can run a marathon.

No, I think it's a total volume thing. Like if you've done a week where you feel like you've accumulated 36 miles of work, then once you taper down, you'll be fresh and ready to go the distance. How about just showing up, like stretching, eating a donut, a couple of pop tarts. No, don't do that. Pack that stuff for an emergency bag. No, I'm saying don't train. Just show up with a pop tart and have my why very clear. Good luck, man. Okay. Everyone. Thank you for listening. Thank you for paying attention. Thank

you for being part of this community that we're building together. Uh, if you enjoyed this conversation, do a couple of things for us. Go check out the, what your, your Twitter page again, which is Des underscore Linden like some stuff because she really needs it. Yeah. Yeah. Joking. And then also check us out on social media. Finding mastery is Instagram. I'm also on Instagram, Michael Gervais and Twitter is finding mastery as well. Got a partnership with coach Carol and you can find out about the business stuff on compete to create.net compete to create.net. And if you enjoyed the conversation,

punch over to finding mastery.net and there's lots of other conversations that hopefully you enjoy as well. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no-cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're listening. Also, if you haven't already, please consider dropping us a review on Apple or Spotify. We are incredibly grateful for the support and feedback. If you're looking for even more insights, we have a newsletter we send out every Wednesday. Punch over to findingmastery.com

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