Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Dierdre Wolownick, Oldest Woman to Climb El Capitan and Mother of Free-Soloist Alex Honnold

Episode Date: June 26, 2019

This week’s conversation is with Dierdre Wolownick, the mother of legendary adventure rock climber Alex Honnold.You may recognize him from this year’s Academy Award Winning film, Free Solo, where he became the first person to ever free-solo El Capitan in Yosemite.Alex was a previous guest on this podcast, episode 108.I wanted to speak with his mother Dierdre for a couple of reasons.First, Alex was one of the more challenging interviews I’ve ever had on this podcast.Everything just seemed so matter of fact to him.One thing I hope you’re noticing from listening to these conversations is how much one’s upbringing (their parenting structure and environment) dictate who they become and why they do what they do so I thought who better to have a follow up conversation with then Alex’s mother.Second of all, Dierdre’s own story is quite incredible.Inspired by her daughter, Stasia, Dierdre began long-distance running at the age of fifty-five, and she has since completed several marathons, as well as numerous half-marathons and other races.At fifty-eight, she took up rock climbing with her son, Alex, and at the age of sixty-six, she became the oldest woman to climb El Capitan, the iconic 3,200-foot granite wall in Yosemite National Park.Dierdre’s award-winning writing has appeared in magazines, newspapers, and books worldwide, and she created a publishing company that sells internationally.aShe just published her first book, The Sharp End of Life: A Mother's Story, where she shares her intimate journey, revealing how her climbing achievement reflects a broader story of courage and persistence.I think you’ll be fascinated by this conversation._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash finding mastery. Okay, this week's conversation is with Deirdre Wallenick, the mother of legendary adventure rock climber, Alex Honnold. You may recognize him as being the principal of this year's Academy Award-winning film, Free Solo, where he became the first person to ever free solo El Capitan in Yosemite. He was a previous guest on the podcast, episode 108, and I wanted to speak with his mother for a couple reasons. First, Alex was one of the more challenging interviews on the podcast I've ever had. Everything just seemed so matter-of-fact, nonchalant to him, even though he operates in a highly consequential

environment. And one thing I hope you've noticed from listening to these conversations is how much one's upbringing, their parenting, their structure, their environment, influence who they become and why they do what they do. So I thought, who better to have follow up on this conversation with Alex than his mother. And second of all, her own life story, it's pretty incredible. So inspired by her daughter, she began long distance running at the age of 55. And since then, she's completed several marathons as well as numerous half marathons and other races as well. And at 58, she took up rock climbing with her son, Alex. And at the age of 66, she became the oldest woman to climb El Capitan, the iconic 3,200

foot granite sheer straight up and down wall in Yosemite's National Park. She just published her first book, The Sharp End of Life, A Mother's Story, where she shares her intimate journey, revealing how her climbing achievement reflects a broader story of courage and persistence for all of us, and that it's never too late to have that fire in your belly and to learn something new, literally to reinvent or co-create the next version of yourself. So I think you'll be fascinated by this conversation. So with that, let's jump right into the conversation with Deirdre.

How are you? Fine, thank you. Thanks for inviting me. This conversation first peaked, what was it, maybe a year ago? More than that. More than a year ago? Two or more. Yeah, two or more years ago. So I had the pleasure and the honor to meet you at an event we were doing, an interview with Alex, your son, Alex Anold. And afterwards, I definitely wanted to meet you. And event we were doing, an interview with Alex, your son, Alex Anold.

And afterwards, I definitely wanted to meet you. And when I learned that you were there, I was like, oh, I want to go to the source. Yeah, that's me, the source. And you said something intriguing right afterwards. You said, I'd love to share with you my perspective. And I said, I can't wait because I mean, my best capture of Alex is that he is somebody that I think is the most significant person in sport right now. And because of his mind, yes, because of the consequential environment he works in. And so I want to say thank you for spending the time to come here and to. You're more than welcome. To deconstruct.

Yeah. Like, how is it that you have. It's one of my favorite topics. You and Alex. Alex. Alex. Yeah. Alex and getting out there and doing stuff.

Yeah. Yeah. Because I want to talk about like how you created an environment for somebody to thrive. That's what we were talking about last night. Yeah, exactly that. And then you've got your unique journey. So I want to start there. So can we go way back?

Sure. Just to get some context. As far as you want. Yeah. Your book is phenomenal. So I was gripped by the first nine chapters or eight or nine chapters where you talked about your early life. It was different. Yeah. It was intense, right?

And it wasn't intense like big dramatic things happened. It was more like a slow decay. Decay? Yeah. I would not have used that word before but why decay yeah and i see your face change when i said that because i i had this image of you as this bright buoyant spiritually you know awake little human And then the way that your family structure was created and the challenge that your mom had physically, polio, where you became a, you slipped into the recesses of your being. I hid myself.

Yes. Basically. Yes. Right. By survival. Right. right yeah and so survival and duty there yes she was handicapped we had to do what we had to do yeah so it was this decay is maybe too strong of a word but it was this this pulling away or this um hiding hiding is the word that yeah okay so brilliant so can you talk through that what was that like growing up well how far back do we want to go whatever's important for you to share i mean when i was three and a half i realized i'll never forget that day i realized that this is the way it was she needed me me. I had to do these things for her.

I had to be her arms and legs more or less whenever she needed it. Couldn't do stairs or couldn't carry stuff, things like that. So I was there for that. And it was partially that and partially the Eastern European mindset of children are to be seen and not heard kind of thing. We were just expected to obey. Nothing more. A good child and their philosophy and their mindset was one that didn't cause problems for their parents. And if it caused problems of any kind for your parents, you were bad, you know.

And so that was a very clean line, very easy to understand, had very little to do with real life in my head. But in their heads, that was life, you know. So I just compromised and said, said okay that's what i'll be for as long as i need to and kept the peace i was the peacekeeper at home my brother didn't do that my brother didn't buy into that like that but he was the boy and in the eastern european mindset you know the boy is king boys can do whatever girls have to do the chores and the this and the that. So a different approach. And you accepted that.

It was just part of the role. I had to. There was no choice. Right. And we're talking about ages four, five, six. We're talking about early days. I came to this realization at three and a half, New Year's Eve party at our house. I'll never forget that.

And so from then on, I just hid who I was, whatever I might feel about anything or think about anything. That didn't matter to anybody. I just swallowed that and followed the rules. You say it, and when I read it, it was there's a lot of sadness in that for me. It's devastating. I had to give up who i was for many many years decades and did that i don't want to fast forward but that lasted maybe 30 years long time longer than that a long time i don't know i i never quantified it yeah so it's

definitely somewhere in mid-marriage where you started to change some of that a little bit so it was like certainly an adult yeah yeah okay and one of the things that i'm gripped by for you is knowing that that was and decay is too too hard okay so i i'll calibrate with you, but that inability for you to shine, the hiding to your words. Well, I did shine in the ways that were acceptable to my parents. Which is service, duty, music. Yeah, yeah. And I could do a lot of things, you know, like still, you know,

I could paint, I could play the piano beautifully, I could play the accordion, I could play anything, basically. And so they provided me with instruments. Saw that I had opportunities in the arts, in language, things like that. It was sort of, I was the show-off child. My brother was just a boy. I was the show-off. Yeah.

Not the princess, but the high-achiever. No, the doll. You take the doll off, show it off, and then put it back on the shelf, and she's just supposed to sit there and wait. At what point did you say, you know what? I matter. When did that happen? I'll have to think about that. Mm-hmm.

I'm not sure when that happened. It started happening probably in Japan when I was realizing that my husband had some issues. Yeah, it took a long time. It took a long time. I was in my 40s probably. And there wasn't like this moment where it's like, whoa, I'm done. No, that would have been devastating. Hiding in the shadows.

That would have been devastating shadows that would have been devastating it was many little glimpses that kind of wised me up a little oh that's cool because that is actually like when we look at catastrophes that's actually how they happen small little things that go wrong like a series of things yeah yeah and this is the exact opposite of small to come to that realization all of of a sudden, 100% would have been devastating. It would have been as devastating as that moment when I was three and a half, shut down. So I guess my mind was protecting me, just little by little, little steps. Our minds are extraordinary. Our minds are amazing.

Yeah. They take care of us. In cunning, slippery, private ways. For sure. And so I do want to talk about your private versus public life. Okay. And now that you've written a book and you've had incredible spotlight on you. Yeah.

You know, and so. Which is totally new to me. Right. Yeah. Is it something you enjoy or? Well, it's, enjoy or well it's enjoy is not right really the word okay it's i don't know i'll keep thinking about that too we're exploring here yeah it definitely will be are you a pensive thinker like you or oh yes i

overthink everything oh yeah yeah you do so and is it because you want to find and articulate it in just the right, perfect way? Or is it because you operate better that way? Both. Both. What would happen if you said something that wasn't right? Wasn't right? Yeah. Right factually, you mean?

No, tonally. Like if I asked you, I'd say, you have to answer this question now. What would happen to you? I would probably just not answer it. I would probably just wait until I... Where did you learn that? Because many people get caught up in social pressures and they feel like they have to... I know.

And I have been guilty of that here and there where you say things that you shouldn't. But, you know, I don't know. I'm just a thoughtful person, I guess. Maybe from genetics. Who knows where that comes from? Yeah. Okay. So if we go back to, it's an interesting word, hiding.

The hiding years. Yeah. It's a really interesting word. And that lasted longer for you than maybe many. I think we all have experiences of hiding not to that extent yeah well how come you didn't fall into a deep depression into a deep depression i've wondered about that myself and i i don't know i guess i'm just stronger than that. Some people are more prone to being overwhelmed, and I have never been. I think it's just genetics, just lucky.

Yeah, so you would say that you had some of the same conditions that others could have, but genetically you didn't have that chemical change. I didn't allow it to destroy me. I didn't allow it to take over my life. What are those types of thoughts that would support you being in a unflourishing environment? I don't know if that's a word. That's a pretty good word for it. Yeah.

Well, in certain areas. It was very flourishing in the arts. But that's the performance side of you. Yes. We're talking about the essence. Okay, so you're talking about personality. Yeah. Okay.

Yeah. So what's your question? Oh, yeah. What would be some of the inner dialogue, some of the stories or words or phrases you would use to help you figure it out? That's a deep question. Yeah. I'll have to mull that one over. Oh, here we go.

Here we go. I've asked three questions. You're like, I got to think. Yeah. Making a list over question. Yeah. I'll have to mull that one over. Oh, here we go. Here we go. I've asked three questions. You're like, I got to think. Making a list over here. Okay. I'm not sure I understand exactly what you mean. You mean what I used to tell myself in my own head? Yeah, that's exactly it.

Yeah. What would you say to yourself when you didn't feel well, when you felt like you wanted more, but you weren't quite sure how to be it? What would you say to yourself about being... Well, I never allowed any of those thoughts until I was an adult. I couldn't. My mind was probably just protecting me, wouldn't allow them in. I just hid who I was and that was that. End of story. I was her daughter her daughter I was the helper I was the peacekeeper that was my role and that's that was it in my head I had all these other things going on you know I

I've been a writer all my life since I was like five you know and a and piano was my lifesaver you know that piano was my only I mean growing up that way in that kind of environment piano was my lifesaver. The piano was my only, I mean, growing up that way in that kind of environment, piano was my only emotional outlet. And so other things become important. And so if I had any of those thoughts you're talking about, I would just send them that way. I would pound it out on the piano or write a story or something. When you say that right now, where do you feel it?

Well, I've gotten over all that. Where did I feel it? I never really allowed it to take root until I was able to handle it. Okay. And even now, like not even now, but now when you talk about it, you don't, you're not animated with feeling. It's like there's been healing. No, I've gotten over all that.

I was for a long time. You know, it was interesting because I just watched you do that. And this unique experience that when I interviewed Alex, your son, you guys have a very similar approach to emotional challenges. Yes. So you both are conditioned. I think that's the Wallenick approach. Alex is a Wallenick through and through. Which is the Polish side. That's my side of the family. Yeah. The Polish side. He looks at, looks like my father. He's built like my father. He's, and we share a lot of this stuff yeah so internal hold it together yeah refusal to entertain thoughts that could hurt or kill right right or create or be damaging right yeah and i

had to be like that to survive that kind of a childhood successfully do you think you taught alex that or do you think that that is something? No, I think it's just genetic. I think we're just that way. It was born that way. We wouldn't know what that genetic code is yet, you know? So wouldn't it be nice if we could just say, I want some of that. Yeah, right. Or I want, I want to dial this and that, you know, and create a little equal, uh, equal. Or we may never be up to that task of making those decisions. What would you call it? What would you call that chromosome, that unique? Coping, the coping chromosome? Yeah. Okay. So high coping?

Yeah, maybe. I don't know. That's probably close. Yeah. Okay. All right. Coping and not letting it undo you. I don't know what the word is for that. But yeah, Alex has that in spades, and he has worked hard at it. To develop it. To hone it, to fine-tune it. That's why his amygdala doesn't fire. He has worked hard at making, at at what's the word i'm looking for not letting it take over yeah so the amygdala is the part of the brain that is primarily responsible for fight flight freeze survival mechanisms yeah and so he um there's a famous

study where they checked out his brain put an fmri on his brain and electrical activity and took a look at what was happening when you share scary images yeah to the alex yeah they came to some shaky conclusions about that in the movie but i mean basically he just trained himself out of responding if you will yeah findingy is brought to you by Momentus. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday, what you put in your body matters. And that's why I trust Momentus. From the moment I sat down with Jeff Byers, their co-founder and CEO, I could tell this was not your average supplement company. And I was immediately drawn to their mission, helping people achieve performance for life. And to do that, they developed what they call the Momentus Standard.

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for 35 off your first subscription order at live momentous.com again that's l-i-v-e momentous m-o-m-e-n-t-o-u- livemomentous.com, and use the code Finding Mastery for 35% off your first subscription order. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Felix Gray. I spent a lot of time thinking about how we can create the conditions for high performance. How do we protect our ability to focus, to recover, to be present? And one of the biggest challenges we face today is our sheer amount of screen time. It messes with our sleep, our clarity, even our mood. And that's why I've been using Felix Gray glasses. What I appreciate most about Felix Gray is that they're just not another wellness product. They're rooted in real science. Developed alongside leading researchers

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Just good design, great science. And if you're ready to feel the difference for yourself, Felix Gray is offering all Finding Mastery listeners 20% off. Just head to FelixGray.com and use the code FINDINGMASTERY20 at checkout. Again, that's Felix Gray. You spell it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com. And use the code FINDINGMASTERY20 at felixgray.com for 20% off. How would you, knowing your son intimately, knowing yourself as well as you know yourself through this adventure of life, how would you help somebody else cultivate

that inability to be overrun by emotional response well to a certain extent I don't think it can be taught some of it not all of it but I do believe it's genetic largely genetic and you're born that way and you know but but you can help it along and help it along. And there are a lot of things you can do to help that along that, that coping mechanism. Cool. So it's a little bit like slow, uh, marathon runners, slow, slow twitch fibers, and then sprinters with, they have muscle fibers of fast switch, right? You're saying, okay, you're born with one or the other, and you can help.

You can grow it. How would you grow it, though, for somebody that, wherever they are on the spectrum, if you say, okay, you want to cope more? You want to be able to not respond in, I don't know, potentially dangerous or catastrophic ways. Where would you suggest people start with that? Well, I don't know. A good place to start if you're old enough is

journaling. You smile and smirk at that. You do that as well? Journaling is such a wonderful tool. You can survive a lot of stuff by writing about it and that forces you to

evaluate and think about it. Evaluating is a large part of this process. Is this really dangerous? Is this really, can I really live and do this? I don't mean live physically, but, you know, have a life. You know, I probably went through some process like that when I was three and a half. And I just kind of came to the conclusion that, well, yeah, this is the way she is. She's, you know, I can't change her. Mom.

My mother, yeah. I can't change her, but I'll just put me aside until I can let it out. I mean, three and a half to make that kind of decision. I know. I knew I was and a half to make that kind of decision. I know. I knew I was the peacekeeper from then on. Yeah, that's the role you adopted. So in dysfunctional families, and I'm not calling yours dysfunctional, but we know this, there's a handful.

When people come from alcoholic or addiction or severe mental disorder, or just some challenges, real deep, rich, obvious, sometimes cunning challenges in the family. Yeah. What ends up taking place is children, there's a handful of roles. The joker, the straight-A student, the doll in your case. And straight-A student. Yeah.

So you are the performance. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. And so there's a handful of roles that children take on to try to figure out and solve the family dynamic and so okay got yours now now how about this when you were trying to figure out how to play the piano you were highly skilled at listening to adults listening to language, listening to tone,

because that was a survival mechanism. And how about that that influenced your ability to perform well? So let's talk about last night. Yeah, I grew up surrounded by many, many languages. In New York City after the World War II, you know, it was a haven for what they called displaced persons back then. Nowadays they would probably call them refugees, war refugees, all kinds of refugees. But they called them displaced persons. So our neighborhood, Jackson Heights, still to this day, Jackson Heights is considered by the New York Times to be the most international neighborhood in the whole country.

And it was then, too. The demographics come in waves. They change in waves. When I was little, it was mostly European, some North Africans, a lot of the islands, the Caribbean, South America. A little bit of Asian, but not much. Nothing really noticeable Asian. But so, like, on our little block, every house, in every house, they spoke a different language.

They had different food. They had different religion, different mindset, everything, you know. And so I grew up listening. Listening was what I did the most because if I'd go to Teresa's house, I had to be sociable with Grandma and Grandpa in Slovak. I had to go to Paul's house. I had Greek Grandma in Italian. And in our family, there was a dichotomy, a very clear cut dichotomy in our, in my world. Old people spoke whatever. In our

family, it was Polish. All of my grandparents are from Poland. So old, I, this, this, well, I'm not confused, but this surprised my husband when I, you know, later, years later when I met my husband. And I mentioned something about, I had moved out to California, and California is remarkably monolingual, uniform. All the other cultures, it is very diverse, but all the other cultures are sort of a subculture, and that's not true in New York. In New York, everybody's equal. Everybody's out there in your face equal. And when I came here, I moved here, there was more culture shock for me moving to California than there had been to move to France for a year. And one of the things I said to him, I said, I had never, I met one of his great aunts or something, adopted grandmother they used to call her,

a white-haired old lady. And she was American. She only spoke English. And I mentioned to him, I had never met a white-haired person who spoke English without an accent. Never. And so I grew up listening. This thing was what I did best. I mean, my grandmother on

my father's side, she was, she died, I guess I was between three and four somewhere. And we used to hang out and play cards together in Polish, you know, and, um, take walks and stuff. And we'd hang out with her friend who was Ukrainian, and they would all chat. And I would chat with them, and I was two and three. So I grew up listening. And that helps. We were talking about this coping mechanism. You have to really be able to listen well to A,

to learn languages, B, to play music, and C, to really deal with people on any successful level, you have to be a good listener. And I grew up listening, and that's how I started learning languages. They didn't want us to know what they were talking about the kids. All the adults in the gatherings, they would all talk Polish. And kids after the war, none of the parents after the war wanted their kids to speak anything but English. So all the little kids, you know, this is baby boom generation.

All the piles of little kids on our block, you know, only spoke English. All their parents spoke something else. All their grandparents only spoke that something else, whatever it was. So you had this dichotomy, but I wasn't satisfied with that. I was a listener, you know, from the beginning. And so I would listen and listen and eavesdrop on their conversations. And little by little, I started understanding what they were talking about. I wanted to know what they were saying about me. When are we talking about age six? Uh, well, no, I started listening, you know, from early two onwards. Cause I, I hung out with my grandmother when I was two and three. Okay. So if you could go back to a living room or wherever you were in your, in your home, and let's go back to age six seven in that

range and you're listening trying to sort it out you didn't realize that you're creating a skill and an attunement no well it was a skill it was something i wanted to be able to do yeah okay at a deeper level what do you wish if there was somebody in that room speaking Polish at the time and looked over at you, looked down towards you, and what do you wish, if you could do it in your native tongue right now, what do you wish they could have said or would have said to you? I longed for just one of them to talk directly to me. Okay, so do you speak still speak polish yeah you have command of that yeah yeah um could you say it in your native tongue what you hope they would have said to you oh anything i didn't care what it was no but go to that place like if they if they could go right into you and change you in a way that would have impacted for

the better or whatever like it would have impacted your the better or whatever, like it would have impacted your life at a rich level. And that was a watershed moment. What would that have been? I haven't the foggiest. I'm not sure I understand what you mean. If we flipped it and we said, if you had the opportunity to speak in Polish to a young six-year-old girl,

just these bright eyes looking and watching and knowing what you know now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you see that girl that's, you know, she's trying to figure it out. She's only six. What would you say to her? Well, I think you're confusing language with communication. No, I was just giving you, what I wanted to hear is your native tongue,

because I don't know what Polish sounds like. Oh, move some, move, move, move, but, you know, they never talk to us. Adults talk to adults. Children were seen, you know, go play somewhere quiet, you know. So yeah, I would have loved to say that, but I couldn't because if I had said anything to them in Polish, see, I couldn't let on that I understood. Because if I had said anything to them,

they would have stopped talking about us in front of us. And I wanted to know what was going on. You know, I want to know what they were saying about me and my brother and what we're going to do next year. You're trying to sort it out. You're trying to figure it out. Yeah. Every advantage you could.

They were filled with information that we didn't have as kids. Yeah. And I wanted some of that. Yeah. So if I had said anything, if I had let on that I understood, that would have ended. So it was part of my coping mechanism. I knew I was picking it up, the language.

I was picking up what they were talking about. But that would have all ended if I had said anything to them. It did happen. I was probably about 12 or 13 by the time it happened. I said, I was in, I don't remember, I guess it was at home, and they were talking, adults were all talking, and somebody said something about us with kids or me or something, and I answered.

You know, it was so normal to me by then. I just followed all their conversations. I never took part because I was a kid. Kids had nothing to do with that. But somebody said something and I answered in Polish. I don't know if I answered in Polish but I answered them who had been speaking Polish. That was the end. They were like, oh, she understood. So they said, oh, onarouzumi. Onarouzumi.

That was the end. But after that, I was old enough for it didn't matter anymore. I was already a teenager. But that would have happened had I been six or seven. They would have stopped talking about us, and that would have been the end of my language training. You know, I enjoy learning languages. I always did. And I enjoyed learning, you know, Italian across the street and Greek across the street

next door. And, you know, that would have been the end of my Polish lessons, if you want to call it that, if I had led on that I knew. Although I did, I used to ask my mother, you know, how do you say this or that in Polish? But I guess they never put it together that I could actually understand them. You were clever. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Exactly.

And what is it that you, I get that what you were craving or longing for was just acknowledgement that you mattered. Yeah, just personhood. It wasn't like... Just personhood. They didn't treat us like people. And that's cultural. Yes.

More so than individual, your mom's style. A little bit of both. A little bit of both. Okay. And then, so if you take that insight and, you know, when you had your son and daughter at a young age, how did you speak to them? Actually, I had them at quite an old age. Oh, did you?

When did you have them? I was 30 when I started having kids. Okay. That's considered young. I was an old maid. I didn't get married until I was 27. Yeah, times have changed. The pain of my mother's existence.

My mother was always talking about that. She had despaired that I would ever get married. What was it like when your mother passed away? Oh, goodness. That's a big question. Let's see. Where was I living then? I can't remember where I was living then.

I bounced around quite a bit. It's not really a question of what it was like when she passed away because I mourned her for years before she passed away. I knew that I had not had a normal childhood. I knew that I had not had a real mother, you know, my mother, children took to my parents, children were a different breed altogether. They had no clue how to talk to children. And so I had mourned her for years prior to her death. So the death was kind of anticlimactic. Yeah, I was living in Northern California.

It's all coming back now, now that you say that. I was living in Northern California, uh they were in pennsylvania my parents lived in pennsylvania at that time my mother was from there you shared a story in your book about um when you got married that on the car ride from the ceremony that i think if i have this right i might have some of the details from pennsylvania to new york city yeah that you just cried the whole way yeah you grieved it was a beautiful ride the whole way I grieved for what was never said yeah yeah parents don't realize how what's the word powerful an impact they have in their kids lives yeah there we go okay

can you teach from that insight can you teach what parents that are living, are raising their children now, not living, but parents that are raising their children now, what would you hope? The key? Yeah. Talk to them. Yeah.

Talk to them. That's the main key. Talk to them like normal people. Don't baby talk. Don't speak Polish around them so that they don't understand. Especially baby talk. That drives me crazy. Would you like a little cookie maybe?

Just talk to them like normal people. Kids are just adults in small packaging, basically. They have all the same tools. They don't call things the same words and stuff, obviously. They don't have the same vocabulary. They have all the same tools or beginnings of tools, and that can all be fostered, you know, or killed, as in my case. But yeah, that's key right there. Talk to them. Acknowledge them.

Just talk to them like people, not like a child or a whatever. Just talk to them like people. Do you feel like you get your son? Excuse me? Do you get your son? Do I get him? Yeah. Most people, I think, have a really difficult time trying to understand how he operates

and how he works in such a consequential environment and is done so well at it. Yeah, they do. I think most people don't get him. It's dangerous to ever say you get anybody completely, you know, because there are so many layers of peoplehood inside us. But to a large extent, yes, I do. And I believe that I'm the only, back when he was a kid, I knew this in my heart of hearts that I was the only parent I knew. And, you know, we had a lot of preschool parent groups and school, you know, and family. And I was the only parent I knew who would have been capable of raising Alex to be successful Alex. Everybody wanted to shut him down. He was, in their eyes, either hyperactive, which he was not, or just hyper, hyper this or hyper that. hyper that they just you know put him on drugs

to take him to the doctor get him get him diagnosed you know so you can get some rest to other parents this is very important and and i never did get any rest when he was a kid i really i i didn't get any rest for like 14 years i I mean, I never had a moment off. Because of his intensity? Because, well, when he was very small, he didn't sleep. He didn't need sleep. He would push, push, push. He just had to go, go, go until 10 o'clock, 11 o'clock at night. He was just not hyperactive, but he had this reservoir. He still has it. He can go way physically, go, go, go beyond most people's limits. And he was like that as a kid. You, in many ways, your early life, the challenges that you faced from your unique ecosystem were perfectly matched to deal with the exact other side. But you

did something. You didn't use the model that you learned and repeated it. No. I knew when I was three and a half that this was not a good way to raise kids, how they were raising us.

My God, three and a half? Yes, yes, I did. What was, I mean, three and a half was an important year. It fundamentally changed your life. Those two thoughts. Totally, totally. Right?

I'm going to hide and this is not right. Yeah. If I get a chance to do it, this isn't how I'm going to do it. Well, I knew that, you know, this is the way they were. I couldn't change them. This is the way they were. And I was small and inconsequential. Didn't matter, you know, in their eyes. I did, of course. I mean, they would have died for us. I know that, but they didn't know what to do about it. You know, And I knew that. And I knew that if I ever had kids, if I ever had babies,

I wasn't going to ever let them feel like I felt. Wow. I knew that at three and a half. And so that's why you became tired. That's why you relentlessly created the ecosystem for your children to figure out how to be themselves. Right. You can learn far more, probably far more from a bad example than you can from a good example.

So in no way would you, based on that thought, would you want to change your childhood? Change my childhood? Probably not. It made me a very strong person. But there was a cost. There was a high cost. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Which was identity. Paid was a high cost. Oh, yeah. Yeah, which was identity.

Paid the price for decades. Yeah. Yeah. But it kind of paid off. You have to have a long view. If you're raised like that, you have to have a long view. And I did.

Did you develop a long view as a kid? Well, when I made all these decisions that night, New Year's Eve, when I was three and a half, I knew. I mean, not in these terms. I didn't have this vocabulary. But I knew that I had to do these things to get along with them peaceably. And peace is very important to me. And harmony and whatever you want to call it.

Was there violence in the family? No, no. No, it wasn't that. And so at three and a half, there wasn't. Occasional spanking, but that's the European way. No, no, there was no violence.

No, no, there were. And there wasn't a demonstrative moment that New Year's Eve. Excuse me? There wasn't like this massive moment New Year's Eve. It was just like you had an aha. It all happened in my head.

It all happened in my head. And I hid it all from everybody forever. Till right now. And no, it all happened in my head. They never had a clue. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down.

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parent my job as a parent yeah like what were the objectives beginning you mean yeah like what were the objectives yes the objectives are yeah i've talked a lot about it the objectives of all parenting should be, are, whatever, to allow, that's the word, allow, foster, whatever, allow your child to discover what their passions are, what drives them, what makes them the happiest, and to create an environment where that can happen, where they can explore that. And the job of every parent, 100%, is to make yourself obsolete so that your kids don't need you, you know, physically and to live and, you know. It's the exact opposite of what you were raised in. Yeah.

It's the exact opposite. Okay. So how do you create, how does one create that environment? Talk to them. It all comes down to that. You're going to come back to it. Talk to them. You can't find, you can't know what's important to a kid if you don't talk to them.

You can't. You can watch and you can observe and you can try to come to some conclusions adult you know based conclusions but you can't know what motivates a kid or what's important to a kid or what they desire most if you don't talk to them and then okay go to the environment piece so you talked about helping them you realizing or helping them understand what their passions are what how they're why they're driven whatever you know okay that was an unusual voyage with alex yeah it sounds like very unique and then the other is to create the environment to help them flourish okay let's just talk about that how how do you go about shaping environments or recommend that

other people shape those environments well it depends on the child of course depends on what's important to that little person in front of you uh you what do you mean like designing the home you mean or i don't know i don't know how you think about it but that's a cool thought you know like okay i mean i mean the parents create the physical environment yeah you know like if the kid wants to be a pianist well if you don't have a piano you're going to make it real hard on them you know so that so to a large extent you drive the desires of your kids you know or fall short or whatever so physically you can help you know um there's oh so many ways every day okay so let's before we go further on those what if let's say let's use piano because it's near and dear to you and let's say that you see your kid's got that an interest in piano it's like an it's like whoa okay he likes it she likes it

and they sign up for some piano classes this is a common thing and the parent sends um a kid to the first six classes that has bought 12 and the kid comes home and says i'm over now it just got hard is all that happened that's all that happened it just got hard and they're a little busy you know with other stuff and well that's a fine line it's a fine line i'd love to hear how you walk okay this That's a fine line for a parent to walk. I'd love to hear how you walk that. This is a very fine line for a parent to walk between laziness on the kid's part and real distaste, you know. I'm not sure how to approach this, but everybody's basically kind of lazy.

But if a kid really wants to be a piano player, the harder lessons are not going to deter them. It's as simple as that. If your kid wants to be a gymnast, buying them a piano is not going to help, and keeping them out of gymnastics class is not going to stop them you know very cool yeah the kids know what they want okay so then go back to that fine line when the kid yeah that's a fine line you have to you have to be gentle about that. I mean, my kid, case in point, when they were little, a lot of the other parents around in the preschool, we'd stand around and chat waiting for our kids.

A lot of them suggested, quite strongly sometimes, they'd watch Alex and they'd see how haggard I was because I was always exhausted, always tired. I never got enough sleep. Alex resisted sleep until 10 or 11. He was up at 4.30 every morning, every day for I don't know how many years. Go, go, go. Go play.

4.30 in the morning. It was pitch dark out. Alex was ready to roll. He has this boundless energy. And it's not hyperactivity. That's a diagnosable thing. Alex was born with this boundless font of energy. And my husband was largely gone most of the time, either gone teaching or gone at conferences or traveling somewhere. And he had very little to do with us at home. It was me and the kids.

And so I was always exhausted. So I couldn't dig very deep because I was so tired all the time. But I loved my little kids. They were wonderful little people, and they were fascinating. And so instead of following all their parental advice and having them diagnosed and putting them on Ritalin or whatever would slow them down so I could get some sleep, I tried all kinds of things. We went on long walks and we'd climb things together, whatever I could. And I talked with them all the time. And I put both of them in.

I asked them, you know, gymnastics. There was a performance gymnastics group in our town in Sacramento. And it was, you know, not school affiliated. It was just for performance. They performed all over the region. And they were very good. And so I approached the coach and he said, yeah, sure, sure. So I brought the kids there and I asked them if they want to try it.

Yeah, sure. So, you know, gymnastics, this sounds like the perfect outlet for my son who's always climbing on stuff. All he ever wanted to do since birth, since the day he was born, was climb higher. Doesn't that fit for Alex? Yeah, yeah. That's all he ever wanted to do since birth, since the day he was born, was climb higher. Doesn't that fit for Alex? Yeah, yeah. That's all he ever wanted to do was go higher. You know, Stacia and I were always content to walk to the park, but Alex was, you know, he always found a wall to, what do you call that,

traverse on or a building or a tree or hop from tree to tree or whatever. So this is the perfect outlook. Okay. Gymnastics. Well, it didn't work out too well because Alex, there were all these things there. They had bars. They had ropes hanging down. They had things to climb on and they wouldn't let him use them.

He had to wait his turn. He had to use it only the way that the coach deemed safe. And, you know, in all these things were there taunting him and he couldn't do what his body was telling him to do. And so he knew better how to use all these things and what he could do, what his body was capable of. He knew better than the coach. He did. I didn't know that then, but he clearly knew, in retrospect, he knew better than the coach what he was capable of and what he could do with all these tools, these amazing looking things hanging all over the walls. But he wasn't allowed.

And it was a source of great frustration. And so he asked, I don't want to go back anymore. I don't want to go anymore. So I kept talking to them. Stacia enjoyed it. His sister enjoyed it. But Alex was totally frustrated. And I didn't understand why then.

To me, this was heaven. If you like to be up higher and doing stuff, moving your body, this is heaven. But it wasn't for him. And so I talked to them all the time. And eventually he was so adamant that now this is terrible. And of course he couldn't put it in adult terms. I, you know, I wasn't getting all of his reasoning, but I could see it was making him miserable. So I just let them stop. You have to know when to pull back. You have to know which battles to fight. And I,

and I fought that for a long time. I figured he was lazy. I mean, he is lazy. If it's not something he wants to do, he's as lazy as in, you know, picking up his socks, huh? Never, never going to happen. But if you need somebody to save your life, he's your guy. You know, he's, he's focused, totally focused. So, and so I, I, I argued it a little bit, little bit, little bit, and I could see that it was making a mistake. You have to know when to pull back from that fight. Your daughter tired of practicing the piano for her lessons? Well, maybe it's not the right kind of music for her.

Maybe she has a physical problem in her hand that she can't tell you about. She doesn't know enough. There's all kinds of things that get in the way between what the kids say and what we hear. And that's a fine line you have to, the only way to work your way down that fine line is to talk to them. I love it. What you're describing is a very Western approach to skill development, which is called formal instruction, as opposed to right in front of you, you know, push off of your feet and then roll. And then, or we could put them at the top of the hill and say, hey, why don't you roll down? Don't you think it would be fun to roll down the hill? Yeah. Let's see how. So you were more of the guide discovery, when Alex found himself and your daughter found Stacia, when Stacia found herself in a structured formal environment, they didn't quite vibrate with it. At least Alex didn't.

Would you recommend? To a certain extent. Physically. Physically. Physically. Because he excelled in school he was a wonderful wonderful little student in school you know mentally yeah i was just talking about the gymnastics environment but physically that's true yeah yeah okay okay so how about another scenario

how about my child is struggling in school and they're more interested. He or she is more interested in something else. And they've got a real capacity for this other thing, whether it's sport or it's some sort of creative thing or modern times, it's like video gaming or something there, you know, but they're struggling in school, not taking care of the first priority, but certainly enthralled with the other thing. How do you manage?

How would you suggest? Yeah, I have a friend who's struggling with this right now. We just had a long talk about this very thing because she knows that about Alex. Her son wants to do nothing but ski to the detriment of his studies and everything else, social life, nothing else is important. That's another one of those fine lines. I mean, sometimes with some children you can negotiate compromises, you know.

Okay, you finish your homework before Sunday night, and yeah, you can go skiing on next weekend. You know, sometimes some kids are more open to compromise. And some kids like Alex will not compromise, period, end of story, on anything. And so that's part of what I meant when I said I was probably the only parent capable of raising Alex, because I'm probably the only adult on this planet who's more stubborn than my son. Alex could out-argue everybody in the Honnold family. We lived in California, so it was only Honolds and me, a Wallinick. All the Wallinicks were back east.

So Alex could out-argue everybody around him, except me. Where did he get that contrarian view? From my father. My father was like that. People used to refer to my father as a Philadelphia lawyer. Do you know that term? No. In the East, a Philadelphia lawyer.

Anybody who could argue either side of any argument equally well. And so Alex has that same skill. And Alex has that, but he always stays on his own side. Yeah, that's another one of those fine lines. And sometimes you can negotiate that fine line with compromises. My daughter was open to compromise. Alex never was. Are you more interested in an environment that cultivates principle or skill?

Principles meaning, you know, high character, excellence, you know, enthusiasm for life. I would say definitely principle. More principles than the mechanical part of the skill. And the skill comes with that. Yeah. Skill is an out, what do you call it? What's the word I'm looking for? Side effect.

Side effect. Side effect. That's cool. Side effect of principles. Okay. So what are some of the guiding principles that matter to you as a parent, as a woman? Holy cow. Big question.

Yeah. Yeah. Truthfulness is way up there. Truthfulness in all things. Truthfulness in dealing with your children. Don't lie to them and tell them stories about why you did this or why you did that. Tell them the truth.

What did you do with Santa Claus? What did you do with Santa Claus? Oh, Santa Claus. he just kind of disappeared by himself i mean nobody had to really talk about santa claus in our family he just they just knew i don't know is there money did you do kind of the traditional stuff there same deal i mean they were very wise when they were very young you know know, and they had it all figured out. Kids are a lot smarter than you give them credit for, generally across the board, and some of them even more so. And, yeah, they just figured things out on their own, and we didn't really have to deal with any of that.

They just knew. I'm sure the answer is yes, but I don't want this to be like, I'm not trying to get to something juicy here. When you argued with your husband. Never argued with my husband. Oh, so I guess the answer is. He wouldn't respond. Did you ever try to get him to respond?

Constantly. Every day. Okay, so you would. You can't argue with someone who doesn't answer you back. It's like one hand clapping. Yeah. So you were looking, you would try to create some stress or stimulus to at least get a response. Not stress or stimulus, just questions. Plain old questions. Wouldn't answer. Nothing would come back? Nothing. Okay. So what do you think Alex and Stacia learned from watching you try to engage with your husband? I shudder to think.

I don't know. When they're older, maybe I'll find out. Or maybe it just won't be important anymore. But I don't know. Yeah, I really appreciate the tone of that because i think about the same thing with in my family you know when my son watches us engage in less than optimized ways and when you know we're arguing or we're trying to figure something out or whatever i mean i know he switched on watching well i think a lot of what they think depends on how they've been raised, whether they've been raised to evaluate,

you know, in a thinking fashion. You know, because my parents talked all the time. My parents were madly in love with each other. I mean, they argued, but still they talked about everything, mostly in Polish. And, you know, everywhere we went, from the backseat of the car, they talked, talked, talked, talked all the time. But not to kids, you know, we went and from the back seat of the car they talked talk talk talk all the time so but not to kids you know adult to adult you know but um so kids learn to evaluate you know they talked all the time and yet i knew they didn't know how to talk to kids even when i was little i knew this you know plainly obvious And so I learned to evaluate levels or qualities,

what do you call it, of conversation, you know. And I just hope that, you know, our kids had the same level of, I don't know what the word is, understanding that there are different levels of conversation and different things are important in conversation. And you can ignore this and this may not be as important as you think. So that would be a second principle. The first is truthfulness or truth.

And the second principle is discernment. Discernment. That's a good word for it. Yeah, discernment. What are some other principles that are really important i'll think about that one number four on our list that's good okay yeah truthfulness discernment would you say that that is your philosophy in life is to discern well and be truthful?

Well, certainly it drove most of my life, yeah. Yeah, those would be the two big principles. Those would be two of the biggest principles. Yeah, cool. Okay. And then how do you, so I get how you teach truthfulness, conversations, you don't hide, you live it yourself. Well, most of parenting, I mean, you can't really tell a child what to think you can't teach children by telling them what to do you can only teach children by

your example really okay that's well that's a guy and so if you are truthful they will i mean i mean the outdoor stuff is is a very clear example this. When our kids were teeny tiny, you know, from birth on, basically we used to take them camping and they would see us picking up litter and talking about, oh, that animal of theirs is endangered and, you know, don't do this. And don't step on that because, you know, we taught them something that I was never taught as a kid, the concept of cause and effect. A lot of life comes down to this concept of cause and effect. This is how you train dogs or horses or children or anybody.

This is how you do a lot of things in life, cause and effect. And if you teach that to children, like we tried to do, both of us, you know, out in the outdoors. And I hope that we tried to, or at least I tried to teach them that indoors as well, you know, people and living. If you teach that to children, then they reason that way as they grow older and you don't need to keep teaching them you just you've given them the tools cause and effect it's one of the great gifts that our natural environment naturally curates yes which are natural consequences right exactly it's one of the i think one of the reasons that mother nature is so powerful because right when you're out in the wild yes you've got to figure it out. There is only cause and effect.

That's right. There is nothing else. Yeah, there's some variance in what those effects can be. And Alex has mastered this concept. Without a doubt. Yeah, up on the rock. I mean, it's cause and effect. I'm not sure you can master it without being in the natural environment.

I don't know that. Right, exactly. That don't know that. Right. Right. Exactly. That's a guiding thought. That's why we've lost sight of it because we live in these monstrous cities where you don't have this concept anymore. It's one of the reasons I didn't like traditional stick and ball sports because the- Traditional what?

Stick and ball. Oh, okay. Like basketball or whatever. I mean, I play it on my enjoy i'm still now but i was more drawn to action and adventure stuff because it was like i had to sort out the cause and effect and the wild is the rules are clear gives no quarter yeah that's right and the rules are clear right you hesitate in a dangerous condition you made a significant mistake right as opposed to like kids playing soccer and all of a sudden there's an adult this was me as You hesitate in a dangerous condition, you made a significant mistake.

As opposed to like kids playing soccer and all of a sudden there's an adult. This was me as a kid. Like, right. What is he saying? The referee. Yeah. Right. There's no referee in nature.

Yeah. I love it. Yeah. Okay. So the wild, the nature was part of your ecosystem that you would create. And then inside, you would talk to them and make, I'm imagining based on our conversation right now, eye contact is important to you. Yes. And you would eat, right? Okay.

Now, let's shift gears just a little bit to two concepts of parenting. And you know what? I just want to ask you this question before I get to these two concepts. What is it like to be one of the, in my mind, one of the most interesting parents in the world right now? Oh, really? Yeah. Well, thank you. Never thought about that.

And I'll tell you, I'll tell you. What is it like? Yeah. But I wanted to, before you answer that, the reason being is because we're living in an off-terrain world. Off what? Off-terrain. There are no rules. There's no real clear map for success. And your son and you have created a way of living that is masterful in the off-terrain world and the uncharted ways. And so risk-taking is part of it, operating in consequential environments, trusting oneself, refining of skills, building a community of support and challenge, they're in place.

And you created an ecosystem, not a guide, right, but an ecosystem for this adventure. And we need it. We need people to figure out who they are and to go boldly. We are in sore need of that. So that's why I think that, you know, you've got this really powerful position in the world of parenting. And so I want to ask what that's like. And then I want to get to two models of parenting. Helicopter parenting, which you've heard of, I'm sure.

And then Zamboni parenting, which is like smoothing things out ahead of the kids. Okay, so what is it like for you to hold this position of parenting? I didn't know I held that position. So this is the first I heard about that. Yeah, good. So all the way home, I'll think about it. Yeah, and so you've earned it by the artifact of your life. Yeah. Right?

And you've also created a beacon for people that reach a certain age in life that feel like they haven't lived exactly the way that they've wanted. And here you are climbing El Cap at age 66. Come on. And so it's like you have reinvented yourself at least twice many times right probably four based on the book that you know yeah right so that's and i'm not talking about just a little upgrade it's like a complete reinvention makeover yep yeah so okay anybody can do that by the way but so before we get to that yeah before we get to that thought which is i think one of the big thoughts that you're a beacon for. Helicopter parenting, Zamboni parenting, smoothing things out so kids can have... Both of those are the antithesis of cause and effect. It all comes down to that. If they taught that in school, the concept of cause and effect, life would be a lot easier, a lot more predictable, a lot easier, a lot richer.

Cause and effect. If you are a helicopter parent, you are ignoring cause and effect completely. Do you remember a time when Alex broke a bone? When you broke a bone? Yeah, or something happened when you could have stopped it, but you chose not to, or you missed it. But the predisposition by your approach is to have him explore. Yeah.

Not so much broken a bone, because all of his broken bones happened when his dad had him. When Charlie was in charge for the day. So we won't go there. That's a pretty funny thought, though. Yeah. But, yes, when Alex almost died up on Mount Tillak, Christmas, it was Christmas holiday. Everybody was home. The kids were home. Alex's father had just

died in July. And it was Christmas after that. And Alex wanted to try out Charlie's brand new snowshoes. Did you read that part in the book yet? He wanted to try out brand new snowshoes. And it

was Christmas. Everything was snowed under up in the Sierra Nevada, where he was going to go. We live an hour from Lake Tahoe, basically. He wanted to go snowshoe up Mount

Tlac. Tlac is the almost 10,000 foot peak that looms over Lake Tahoe. It's the middle of winter. Crazy. Tahoe. It's the middle of winter. Crazy. Nobody goes up there in the middle of winter. You got to be crazy or driven or something. But Alex really wanted to try out these snowshoes. And when Alex is driven, there is no stopping him. I knew what some of the effects of this could be, and he knew too. And I knew that he knew, but he was willing to give it a shot. And so you never know. I let him go. I let him take my van because it was safer. It was bigger and heavier than my little car. So I let him take my big heavy van and sleep in it that night,

you know, Christmas Day night. And then he was going to start snowshoeing the next morning. So, yeah, I knew probably a stupid thing to do, but not in his eyes. You know, he wanted to do this, so I let him go.

Almost lost him up there, but let him go. I'm him up there, but let him go. How old was he? I'm sorry? How old was he? He was 19, I believe. Yeah. 19 or 20.

19 and a half. So, yeah, he had this horrible storm blew in from Alaska that night when he was sleeping out in the van in the woods. He didn't know about it. Nobody knew about it. He went up and blew him off the peak. He went tumbling down, wound up pretty beat up, but he did survive. That was one of those moments when I could have put my foot down and said,

No, don't you dare take either of the cars and, you know, made him stay home. But he was driven. He just, he wanted to go do this. And just, I had learned by then to stay out of Alex's way when he's driven to do something. You know, he knows what he can do. He knows what he's capable of. By that time, I knew this. You know, they were already writing articles about

him in magazines, the climate magazines. And, you know, I knew he was different. I knew he could probably handle whatever. As it turned out, the storm was stronger than he was, but he did survive. And to this day, he still says, Mom, you should never have called 911. I could have made my way down just fine, you know. And he probably, knowing what I know now, he probably could have. But he was dying of hypothermia up there. I mean, he was covered in blood. And he was, it was this horrible storm still going on up there. Winds such that the helicopter couldn't land to pick him up. And he was covered in blood. And it was just a horrible scene. But he probably, knowing now what I know about him,

he probably could have found his way down. He had a concussion. He had a broken arm. He had all kinds of injuries. And he was covered in blood. But still, he probably could have found his way down. How did you manage it because so he was managing it in his element and then as a parent how did you manage it in your element

what do you mean emotionally well well my daughter you know station was home they were both home she was still sleeping this happened i got a phone call from him shall i give the whole story away oh it's in the book you have to read it in the book it's a hair-raising story but so so it was a four-way conversation i gave the phone hit the you know he called me on his cell phone which was one day old i had just given him the cell phone there were a lot of uh coincidences that day that all combined to save his life, you know, whatever you want to call that. I, that's kind of a twilight zone moment that day. I haven't figured that one out myself yet. But so I gave that the phone to Stacia. I said,

keep him talking. Don't let him fall asleep. And then I called 911 and 911 patched me through to search and rescue up there. And so I had to keep it together. We had this four-way thing going on. And I had to monitor with Stacia that he's not asleep, is he? He's still talking. I'm listening to her. And on the other ear, I was listening to the search and rescue people. And so I didn't dare let it all collapse.

I had to listen to everybody. And then we finally hung up with them. They found him. They were going to go get him. And so then I had to organize station. We had to pack a bag for him. We were going to go up to it. They took him to the Reno Trauma Center, which is several hours from our house,

on the other side of Lake Tahoe, on the other side of the Sierra Nevada. And it was like 10 o'clock at night by the time we were, it was a horrible day. So I didn't dare lose it. I had to, you know, then I had to drive up there. And it was the day after Christmas. Everybody was on the road returning their gifts. Every exit from I-80, we'd go, we were going 85 miles. And then all of a sudden we were going 20 miles at the exits off to these malls and shopping. It was horrible. And so I had to keep it together. And then when we got there, I had to keep, I just had it. It was like, like my childhood. I just had to keep it together for everybody else around me. And then they drove home. We finally got the van

out of the woods and got Alex out of the hospital, got the van out of the woods. And Stacia drove the two of them home in the van and I followed in the car. And just in case I had to keep it together, it's a windy, twisty, windy, treacherous road down from Tahoe. And we just had to keep it together. Then we just all fell into bed and I went unconscious and my mind just saved me next day was just a new day new start so you're in your sixth decade and you look up at El Cap 3000 feet and you yeah. Who in his right mind? Yeah, let's go ahead and do that. Yeah. Well, I had been looking up at it and saying, wow, I wonder what they see from up there.

I wonder what it feels like to be up there. I've been looking up and saying that for decades because we've been going there for decades. Well, you can hike up another way. But you wanted to be on the wall. And you can. Yeah. And you can, but it's not the same. No, no, no. You wanted to be on the wall. And you can. Yeah. And you can, but it's not the same. No, no, no. You wanted to be on the wall. And so for folks who think that, you know, I'm just too old. I missed my thing early days. Such a sad attitude. You know, and I'm suffering

because I should have been filling the blank. I should have been feeling the blank. I could have been feeling the blank. Shoulda, woulda, coulda. And I didn't make that decision. Yeah. Right? Like for whatever reasons. Other people got in the way or whatever. What do you say to them?

What do you say to her? What do you say to him? That's a long question. A very beefy question it's it's never too late unless you are willing to accept that it is um life is completely open to you unless you buy into the limits that other people put on you well i can't do that because i've got two kids and i've got a mortgage and i've got and i've got and i've got and i can't do that because i've got two kids and i've got a mortgage and i've got and i've got and i've got and i can't just accept those limits if you accept those limits and buy

into them they become yours well my my wife or my husband has a stable job and so i could play the fantasy that you know i want to go be a ballerina but i'm just too old right and i can't do that so how do you i grew up surrounded by people like that everything was too hard and oh we couldn't do that oh no i'm too old no no i'm no i'm a girl i can't you know you know and when i was little i realized how futile and ridiculous that is but all the adults around me were old in their heads. You know, my parents were old when they were 40. You know, they were, and that's what makes you old. You don't get old because you wear out. You wear out because you think old. You just have to recognize, acknowledge and recognize, you know, is a certain limit true? Is it really true that I cannot XYZ? And how do I know this? And if you can't know it unless you try it, really, you know, I grew up in

a house that was filled with smoke all the time. They didn't know back then that smoke, you know, secondhand smoke, they didn't know about that. Both my parents smoked all the time. And so our house was this thick gray cloud. It was horrible. And I never realized it until I was grown. You know, it was just the way the house was, the way things were. And so I knew that all my life growing up, anything more strenuous than pedaling a little bicycle or getting up out of my chair and I would huff and puff. My lungs were shot and I knew this. I quote unquote knew that I could never be an athlete or run or do anything that sustained. Well, it turns out it's not true at all. But you can't know until you push the limit.

You know, you're a girl. You're not supposed to go do that, whatever that is, you know? I wasn't supposed to. I was a climber when I was a little kid, but I was not supposed to. I loved to go, you know, adventuring with the little boys and climb on the garage roofs, climb the trees, climb the lampposts. But they're always yelling at me, get down from there. The boys are going to see your underpants. You're supposed to wear a dress.

You're not supposed to, you know. So you have to decide which of those supposed to's you approve of and which you don't discernment discernment exactly exactly okay so let's say we're not raised to be discerning in this society i think we're raised to follow it's a skill follow advertisements we're raised to be a certain way and if you're not you need to take a drug. That's basically what our society is all about. I was astounded. We didn't have television when our kids were growing up.

We didn't have a TV. And they thank me for that now, both of them. So we were not part of that culture. We didn't know the actors. We didn't know the advertisements, all that culture. We didn't know the actors, we didn't know the advertisements, you know, all that stuff. And so I never got back, you know, after the kids grew up and left, I just never changed that. I still don't have television at home and I don't miss it one iota. How do you speak to the 40 to 50 year old woman who has done a marvelous job raising children, has sacrificed something? Oh yeah, there's a lot of sacrifice marvelous job raising children, has sacrificed something. Oh yeah, there's a lot of sacrifice involved in raising children.

Yeah, and have a calling. They don't know what it is, but they know that there's more. They're not sure exactly what to do next, but they have a sense that there's something inside them. It's either the expression of that sacrifice or it's something new. Like, what do you say to them? Another big question. Yeah.

You're full of big questions. Well, but I think you... A good way to start figuring that out is journaling. Journaling. I cannot emphasize that enough. Journaling is the key to just about everything. Wait a minute. You want me to write down?

Yes. What? Yes. What do you want me to write down? Sit down with a pen in your hand, not dictating, just a pen. Where do I start? Turn on some quiet classical music. No voices, no words.

Some quiet music. Instrumental music. I don't want to be no words, some quiet music, instrumental music, then it'd be classical, but some quiet music, shut out everything else, and just sit there with the pen in your hand, and you will be amazed at what happens. Cool. So you do an open journaling process. Anything you want. Your mind will direct you. You will be amazed at what happens.

And when I have nothing to say, when i have nothing to say when i have nothing to write nobody has nothing to say when everyone has a voice when i don't know what to write everyone has a voice but it's hammered out of us it's hammered out of us in school it's hammered out of us on the television it's hammered out of us by every advertisement i was astounded i started to say before i never watched television for like 20, 30 years, whatever it was. And then I went to a friend's house and she had cable television on. Nothing but ads for drugs. I was astounded that they allow that. That should be illegal. Drugs are not our natural state. That's the antithesis of our natural state.

And nothing but ads for drugs. We are, it is hammered into us to, you know, the nail that sticks up gets beaten down, whatever, however. Oh, yes. Right. We are just to follow the rules that, and the rules come from television and nowadays online. Okay. I don't have i i hear you i just don't have enough i'm playing along i just don't have the time and i don't know what that's going to do anyways because turn off your devices everybody has the time i'm not on my device that

much i see my kids are but i'm not yeah yeah different. Yeah. Like everybody thinks they're an above average driver. Yeah. Everybody's different. Yeah. You have the time. If your mental state, emotional state, mind, whatever you want to call it, is important to you, you'll have the time. I can't tell you how happy I am right now. Cause and effect. It comes down to cause and effect. Yeah. I love your position. It's very simple, but we make it so complex. It's not complex at all to figure yourself out. It's not. It's cause and effect. Sit down with your pen and your paper and see what happens. It's better than any shrink in my book. Do you do any sort of mindfulness practice? It's all mindfulness. When I was three and a half, I became very mindful. And it's never stopped. So no formal training, sitting on a pillow and breathing in open source,

but more just paying attention and feeling and listening and watching. So mindfulness and meditation is the practice of discernment in many ways. Exactly. Mindfulness just means being aware. Yeah. Do you have an aversion to psychologists or shrinks? No. Yeah, but you think that there's a better process,

which is being alone with your thoughts? Well, they can complement each other yeah I mean yeah yeah I mean I think that there's obviously I'm trained in that field but there is well there are skilled professionals and there's unskilled professionals yes spending time with an unlike any like any profession there are good teachers and they're bad teachers there are good shrinks and there are bad shrinks there are good shrinks bad there are there are professionals who try to guide their patients towards mindfulness and there are those who try to guide them towards drugs you you know yeah it's true of any profession there are good lawyers bad lawyers good whatever's you know yeah that's right yeah okay if journaling will, can help you avoid that decision.

Do I have a good shrink or a bad shrink? Well, if your journal is your shrink, it doesn't matter. Cool. Really cool. Journal is the best head doctor around. Yeah. It's you and you. Exactly.

Right. And, you know, getting honest in that. Exactly. And if you can be honest on paper, you can find out who you are. It's really cool because there's a forcing function that takes place for people that might be new to journaling. It's different than thinking. When you have a pen and a blank sheet of paper, your native tongue, you have to choose the words to express. And that choosing of all the words that you could choose which ones do

you choose to write and express right and when you do that that forcing function creates some clarity and that clarity over time right becomes even more clear and then so i go i've got this thought from clarity to conviction right okay so living a life first you got to get clear about some stuff and then if you want to live a life of conviction, the stitching in between those two is mental, are mental skills. Right. So physical and mental skills are the linking between the two. And I'm more interested in the mental skills. Like I can see you've thought about this a lot. Yeah. Right. Like if I've got great clarity about who I want to be and the principles I want to live and then all of a sudden I go into an environment that is stressful or has pressure or consequence. And I abandoned that to survive only.

Well, it's because I don't have the mental tools. Yeah. So when we talk about mental tools, there's lots of them, but the big five, and I'd love to hear your take on them, which one you're most interested in right now or have been most interested in.

So confidence. What was that? Confidence. Confidence. Being confident. interested in right now or have been most interested in so confidence was that confidence confidence and being confident generally this is a result okay yeah okay so I want to let's go and go into that in a sec so calm confidence being calm so having a sense of manager internal yeah clear goals or visions or ideas about you know what the future could look like. Having routines. So something to prime your mind and behaviors. Imagery. And I'm blanking on.

That's five. That's five, yeah. And so of those skills, which ones are you most interested in? Skills. I don't know if I'd call those skills yeah those are like the results of the skills yeah so though you're right that a state of confidence is the output yeah we're short-handing work hard yeah we're short-handing the skill part self-talk is the skill mm-hmm to master if you will to be confident breathing is the skill to master to be calm in any condition right but as a right

we'll call it we can call them skills and states or whatever yeah out of those which ones are you most interested in if you could install let me get again confidence, calmness. Right. Imagery, pre-performance routines, and some sort of goals. Well, I would say they're all equally important. Yeah, that's what most people say too. Yeah. I couldn't single one out to be more. When you said confidence was a result, you're saying that the skill of it... Well, to a certain extent you know

some people are born with more than others and you know it's interesting because i'm not sure i think that people are born with a predisposition for being calm but not confidence and when people are calm in stress-based environments and they look around and other people are falling apart because they're breathing and they're your heart rate is pounding out of their chest and they look around and other people are falling apart because they're breathing and your heart rate is pounding out of their chest. And they look around, they're like, oh, well, I'm actually doing pretty good. And they become confident. Yeah. That little dialogue, like, I'm actually okay here.

That self-talk is actually an accelerant. You know? And because they've got low CNS, low central nervous system activation, you know? Okay. Do you come into this world with high activation or lower activation and i'm curious about alex too but i think i asked him that question on the podcast but alex came into this world completely confident he knew from the get-go when he was one half two that he knew better than everybody around him

about everything. And that never changed. And he knew that, I believe now, because of the physicality of him, of his whole being. He knew what he could do. But he also knew how to do math better than his two aunts.

And he also knew how... He knew that he knew better. But he also knew how to do math better than his two aunts. And he also knew how, he knew that he knew better than everybody around him when he was two, three, four. And it's hard to raise a kid like that. It's really a challenge to raise a kid who knows better than everybody. And he didn't do, not, I don't mean that in the way like, you know, out of little kids, oh, I know better than you do. You know, I don't mean it that way. He, he was convinced that he knew better about whatever we were doing or thinking about or talking about or doing, you know, he, he, and he was usually right. I hate to put that out there. He was usually right. Um, and so some people are born with more of one or one of those five things yeah or more but there's there are more but those are the big yeah yeah yeah you know i i but it'd be

hard to separate those five and say which one is more important i think they're pretty much equally important yeah it is a bit like a hand and glove they work together right right okay you've dedicated your life in a truthful discerning way to figure out how to help others flourish, namely your children and yourself. You've become a beacon. Your students and your guides is a way that you reference them in your intro, that your kids are your guides. It's a really cool thought. So that being said, a beacon for being able to rediscover your potential, a beacon for adventurous life,

a beacon for transforming into the woman that you're wanting to become and meant to be maybe is another poetic way of thinking about it, and a beacon for parenting to helping kids flourish even in a consequential environment a la a consequential world that we live in and the greatest consequence is not living a path that matters right not living so many of us are not actually living it's the greatest risk it's kind of existing and waiting to die. So how do you think about mastery? How do you think about that concept?

I don't equate mastery with skill at all. I don't know if that goes counter to everybody. I don't know. I don't have that time to look anything up or do any research, but in my own head, Mastery to me is being sure. Sure of what you want, sure of how to get there, how to achieve it, and sure of what it will do for your life. That's mastery. My son always knew from birth, even though he had no idea what other people thought of any of this stuff, he always knew what he wanted. He always knew what he wanted.

People wanted to drug him, put him on medicines, take him to the doctor. He always knew what he wanted. He knew what he needed to do to achieve it. And he did that every day. To my great chagrin. It's hard to raise a kid who's so driven like that. But he knew what he wanted. He was sure about how to get there. And he worked hard at how to get there every day. He was in training every day of his life. When all the, you know, we'd be sitting around and kids, toys on the floor and Stacia and her friends would have their little legs wrapped around that little thing on the floor and they're laughing and falling. Alex would stand up on the thing instead and get up higher and grab something. And all the adults would yell, watch out. He wasn't just being

wild. He was training. I didn't know this back then, but, you know, perspective is wonderful. Hindsight is, you know, so clarifying. So he knew what he wanted. He knew how to get there. He knew that he needed to work on these skills, this skill set, every day. And he knew, like deep down where you really know these things, he knew that it would make his life better. It would be his life. He didn't know if it would be allowed, if he could make money at it. He didn't know if other people would laugh at him for it. He knew, you know, he knew all these things always. He went to Berkeley because his parents were teachers and his grandparents were teachers and education was very valued in our home. They were both phenomenally bright.

Not because they're my kids or anything, but they were very, very bright. They could do anything, like 4.8 averages across the board, both of them. And so he knew that he had to go to college. That was expected. But he also had this mastery going on, and he knew what he needed to do. So while he was at Berkeley, he didn't go to class. He went out to the, what's it called, Indian Rock in Berkeley, and he would train. He would master his skills out there every day.

Finally, eventually, he became honest enough to ask me if it would be okay if he just dropped out of Berkeley just for a year. You know, and I could always go back. And I suspected he was never going to go back. In my heart of hearts, I knew that was not for him. His mastery was elsewhere. And I didn't know these terms back then. I didn't know. It was not nearly this clear to me way back then.

But I knew something was going on. I knew it was pointing this way. And what could I say? You want to quit Berkeley? How many kids would just turn their back on, you want to quit Berkeley and go be a dirt bagger and climb? Sure, go ahead. What could I say?

It was his path. And it had been his path from the day he was born. He could stand up. He could stand up the day he was born. He had huge, powerful hands, and he had huge powerful thighs and the day he was born he could just you know he couldn't stay standing but he could stand up he'd push himself vertical so it was inevitable and that is mastery mastery is being sure basically no one's ever described it that way. Really? Yeah. No, it's refreshing. It just seems kind of obvious when you take it apart.

I mean, that's what mastery is, the being sure. Mastery and skill are very, very different. Skill is what allows mastery to occur. It can push us towards mastery. But it's the sureness that makes it become mastery. Without that sureness, it cannot become mastery. You could be the best piano player in your neighborhood and play beautiful Chopin and whatever Mendelssohn

and play for your neighborhood. But if you yourself waver about, I'm not really that good, and oh, I could never do that competition, or I could never, you know, then you're never going to achieve mastery. You'll never be a master at it. You'll be very, very good.

You'll be skillful, but you will never achieve mastery. You won't have that sureness. It's the sureness. And Alex was born with that. Well, thank you. Thank you for your time. It's the sureness. And Alex was born with that. Well, thank you. Thank you for your time. Thank you for your insight.

Thank you for being a beacon of transformation and change and hope and ecosystems that help people thrive. So where can we find you? Where can folks that are enthralled and interested, where can they find you? Okay. There are lots of ways. First of all, for the book, anywhere you can buy books on Amazon or any bookstore, Barnes and Nobles, any bookstore can order it. It's called The Sharp End of Life. And that's a climbing term, by the way, The Sharp End. So The Sharp End of Life is out there. You can get it anywhere. Perfect. And then how about social media?

Social media, you just type in my name, at Deirdre Wallenick. Go ahead and spell that for us. For Facebook and Instagram. Go ahead and spell that for us. Okay. D-I-E-R-D-R-E. That's Deirdre. And then Wallenick, W-O-L-O-W-N-I-C-K.

I'm sorry. It's a toughie. It is a tough one. D-I-E-R-D-R-E. W-O-L-O-W-N-I-C-K. It's Polish. I'm sorry. It's hard to spell, hard to remember. But once you do, it'll be worth the trip.

Thank you. Thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure. Yeah. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of finding mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're

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one of the best things you can do is to talk to a licensed professional so seek assistance from your health care providers again a sincere thank you for listening until next episode be well think well keep exploring