Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Discipline and Mental Fortitude | Basketball Coach, Dawn Staley

Episode Date: July 21, 2021

This week’s conversation is with Dawn Staley, the University of South Carolina Women’s Basketball Head Coach and Team USA Olympic Head Basketball coach for the Tokyo Olympics.Catapulting South Carolina into the national spotlight, Dawn has made the Gamecocks a mainstay in the battle for SEC and national championships. Under her leadership, the Gamecocks have reached many firsts – National Championship, NCAA Final Fours, No. 1 rankings, SEC regular-season and tournament titles, SEC Player of the Year, National Player of the Year, WNBA No. 1 Draft pick and No. 1 recruiting classes – to name the most notable.While her coaching career is in full bloom, Dawn is still recognized for her body of work as a one of the most decorated participants in United States women’s basketball history. The Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame solidified that legacy with her enshrinement as part of the Class of 2013.I wanted to speak with Dawn to understand her leadership style and learn how we can all apply those same insights – inside and outside the world of sport. We discuss the qualities required to become resilient and agile when adversity strikes — and — why relationships are at the center of her coaching philosophy._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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I would not be a two-time assistant coach, gold medal Olympian. And I wouldn't be the head coach of an olympic team today so i chose to go the hardest route and not the easiest route and i got to the other side and it's been plentiful All right, welcome back or welcome to the Finding Mastery podcast. I'm Michael Gervais and by trade and training, I am a sport and performance psychologist and I am fortunate to work with some of the most extraordinary thinkers and doers across the planet.

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and Team USA Olympic head basketball coach for the Tokyo Olympic Games. Under her leadership, the South Carolina Gamecocks have received many firsts. National Championship, NCAA, Final Fours, number one rankings, SEC regular season and tournament titles SEC player of the year national player of the year WNBA number one draft pick and number one recruiting classes I mean it's unbelievable what she's done at this program and while her coaching

career is it's in full bloom Dawn is still recognized for her body of work as one of the most decorated participants in the United States women basketball history. The Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame solidified that legacy with her enshrinement as part of the class of 2013. And I wanted to speak with Dawn to understand her leadership style. How does she do it? How does she pull the best out of so many? And then I wanted to learn how we can all apply those same insights inside and outside the world of sport. We discussed the qualities required to become resilient, to be agile, especially when adversity strikes and why relationships are at the center of her coaching philosophy.

And with that, let's jump right into this week's conversation with the legend, Dawn Staley. Dawn, how are you? I'm doing great. Where are we living right now? Where are you? I'm in Columbia, South Carolina, where it's pretty hot pretty humid um but i'm in i'm in i'm enjoying being home yeah yeah so i know that the intro that i just read is gives a nod to how much you've done and so i just want to start off by saying congratulations on everything.

Like you, you, like you're one of the rare few that have really blazed the trail and the, the rest of the folks that get to look at what you've done to say, Ooh, how? And so that's what I want to focus on this conversation. Like you have created something that is hard to get my arms around because you've had so much success so often. And so I can't ask you the question how it just doesn't it's it just doesn't quite work like that. But if we could just set a little context up quickly, where'd you grow up? What was it like? Well, I grew up in Philadelphia, North Philly, specifically in a housing project called the Raymond Rosen Housing Projects. And the housing projects was when I big field where it was big enough for a softball field, a baseball field.

We created a track and then it was a base, I'm sorry, a basketball court. So it was huge field that, and it was just space. But there was a fence for a baseball field. Um, and then it was just in the basketball court and then it was just wide open space. Um, and then looking, looking out into the, the field where, where the start of some start of some high rises. And if you grew up in the projects and you lived in the row homes,

we thought we lived in suburban America because the high rises were filled with some of everything. You could smell the urine as you get on the elevator or walk through the halls or get on the elevator. You can encounter anything in the high rises. So in the row homes, we had three rooms, small kitchen, small living room, small dining area. But it was like your own home. And I thought we had a lawn, you know, our block was the fourth block and we had a block captain that, I mean, she never, she did not let anybody not mow their lawn or plant flower. I mean, it was beautifully done by everybody that lived in that house. Now,

her grandchildren used to live in a block, a neighboring block. Like we were the fourth block, her grandkids lived in the fifth block, and the fifth block did not look as nice as our block. So even her grandchildren were under her wrath when it comes to coming to our block and not treating it like they lived there so we we had that and the dynamics of living in the projects are so great because we did not know life outside of the projects and we felt like we had everything that we needed to arm ourselves to be survivors. We knew we were, you know, surrounded by a lot of negative, a lot of, you know, a lot of crime. But we also were protected by the people in our neighborhood that wouldn't allow us to stray off the, you know, straight to the wrong path.

And we were just a close-knit group that just really took care of each other. If, you know, during the summer hours, the long days, hot, we would get together at, and it was usually my house. All the parents went to work. We would kind of put our money together and we would go to the store and we would cook cheesesteaks for the entire neighborhood. And everybody really kind of took turns doing this.

So it was a cool environment to grow up in. And it was, you learn a great foundation of discipline because I grew up in a household where my mother, she didn't spare the ride. She's a faithful woman. She was a woman of great character and expected nothing else but that from her kids. And during those days, our parents allowed parents in the neighborhood to help us grow and learn and stay on the right path. So it was a beautiful environment where you learn how to grow up with great character, with being surrounded by 100%, 100% like Black people. Like I didn't really get a interaction with any white people until I,

in my later stages of playing AAU basketball. And then they would marvel, they would want to come in our neighborhood to kind of check it out. And then when they would take me to the suburbs, you know, these big homes and I mean, it was something made out of TV, but they also prepared me for what I was going to see at the University of Virginia, because it would have been an eye open experience had I not interacted with someone other than

my race. Okay. So you look back at your childhood with great fondness, with a gratitude. You look back as it was a place that you learned first principles, core values, community, togetherness, have your back, have my back. You learned that. Oftentimes the projects are associated with crime and gang and violence and poverty and not caring and struggle. And I could keep going, right? To describe some of the attributes. And you're saying saying if i get the picture right you're saying yeah okay some of that's in there right but let me tell you the other thing right so what was it was it gang involved was your uh would you say the fourth block was that gang involved or not getting involved the fourth block was not gang involved at all we, there was no crime on my block.

But if you go across the field, and I'm not trying to shame the high rises, but once you cross the big field, anything could happen. Like you could, you know, you could hear shots fired. You could, you could hear shots fired. You could see people running. How did mom keep you from being attracted? What was that scenario about?

Because I'll describe my childhood right now. When I saw something that was different and something that was a little risky or whatever, I was interested in it. And, you know, kids are supposed to kind of push up against boundaries and figure that whole thing out. It sounds like you went over to the high rises. You knew, but then you didn't stay there, if you will. And I don't know if this is coming off right, but I'm curious, like, what were the mechanisms in your family unit where they kept you from straying? Here's the biggest thing that a lot of times that, well, not a lot of times. Here's what's missing in homes today that I had in my home.

I was more scared of my mother than anybody on earth. So when you're, when you fear your, your parents, you're not going to stray out when you're out of their sight, you're not going to stray from the very things that they taught you in that high school, that our household, because you don't want to make them look bad. You don't want to beat him. You don't, you don't want to make them look bad. You don't want to beat them. You don't want to break the sanctity of what the Stanley family was all about. Would they use that? Like in the Stanley family, we fill in the blank. No, we don't.

No, it wasn't that prescriptive. There were, there were actions that, you know, my mother was a woman of few words. You look at her face, her facial expressions will tell it all. If you do something within her sight, anything that's within reach, a shoe, an iron, an extension cord. She used that. And we were well aware of when we knew we've crossed the line in any way. And I just utilized that by being observant and aware of my surroundings and the people. And we're not a very trusting family or neighborhood. We built that. We built that trust with how we grew up and how we treated each other. And it just wasn't because, you know, we lived in the same neighborhood. Okay. So you said, you said we were not trusting, but we built trust. So amongst each other, like, okay, I want to pause that or pin that for a minute because that's really powerful. But you're saying that two things.

Mom would use just about anything, except for words. And there was a clear line. You knew behavior that was acceptable and unacceptable to the principles of the family. And when you crossed it, be careful. Right. And then, so you knew that if you went out and did some stuff that was not okay, when you came home, it might be worse than what might've gotten, what might've taken place outside.

Yep. Okay. You grew up afraid of mom and mom loved you. Absolutely. Okay. afraid of mom and mom loved you absolutely okay so how did those two work together because i i know you as a coach of being like whoo like a disciplinary like an authoritarian like i listen if i played for you i'd be like you know like you know like you're gonna bring something out of me right you? You actually wouldn't. Okay. So tell me, this is the blend between the love, the acceptance, the getting, and then the discipline, the whatever.

Okay. So I want to understand that from mom first and then, and then I want to understand how you do it. My mom loved hard, loved hard. Like there was an incredible balance of discipline. And it was that other side of, you know, if you abide by her rules, you live clean. You're good. You live a happy life. You know, she'll love up on you. She'll kiss you. She'll hug you. She'll, you know, she'll take you for ice cream every Sunday. She will, she will give you the shirt off her back, all of that. If you just do what she tells you to do and abide by the rules of her house. And that's why I always say, you know, I do have

a reputation as being a very disciplined coach. Um, but people see game day. When you just look at game day and you and you and you just take game day as. That's who that person is, then you don't really understand the dynamics of team, of teacher, of nurturer, of forging a relationship with your players, that you can outwardly be who you are. And I've been very fortunate that my players allow me to be who I am because they know we've built a relationship to understanding that it is totally out of respect that I coach them the way I need to coach them to move them from where they are. They all aspire to be certain things. And I'll tell you this. I've had a lot of different coaches in my career. Coaches, one, who were just strictly positive, just all positive. They see positive

in everything. I've been coached by a coach who was methodical, low turnover, valued the ball. I've been coached by a coach who allowed me to make mistakes and be creative and taught me through those mistakes. I've been coached by someone who pretty much rolled the ball out and say, do what you need to do. Create your magic. You're a disciplined player. You're not going to damage the sanctity of a team. So do you. And then I, I took all of those. And I had coaches who just play head games, like had you thinking outside of, outside of the, you know, 94 feet. And I've taken all of those experiences. And, and for me, I just, I think I just take the good from them that works for me.

And I'm I'm a I'm a players coach because I coach like I'm their point guard versus being up here and they're down here. I'm a team. Yeah. You know what I have a sense of? Let me use a like a military analogy for a minute, is that if if we got to get into a foxhole, God, I'd love you to be in the foxhole. I'm your girl. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentous. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday. What you put in your body matters. And that's why I trust Momentous. From the moment I sat down with Jeff Byers, their co-founder and CEO, I could tell this

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And if you're ready to feel the difference for yourself, Felix Gray is offering all Finding Mastery listeners 20% off. Just head to FelixGray.com and use the code FindingMastery20 at checkout. Again, that's Felix Gray. You spell it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com and use the code FindingMastery20 at FelixGray.com for 20% off. What emotions have you felt while we've been talking? I mean, I enjoy reminiscing on the very thing that continues to ground me and the very thing that is my foundation because that's my rock.

I've never strayed from living in the in the projects in north philly never strayed from the discipline that's required to be successful and it's it's very simple you know discipline is being able to in the moment not do things that you want to do do things that created the habit for you to have the temptation not to and and I just it's it's a simple math life equation um that I just try to teach our players to if, if you have a certain level of discipline, and that's my favorite quote, and the quote that I live by is the disciplined person can do anything. And a lot of times people don't understand that you could, you can, you could be disciplined in something that's positive and that can help you in your life, you can also be disciplined in something that's negative and be as good that's having a negative impact on your life. So I do have to be

specific when I say those things, because there's a big difference that will take your life and your career one way or the other. Yeah. You hear the phrase like, if that person was half as creative on cheating and getting over and just do the work, they become president, CEO of whatever, whatever. Yeah. You know, okay. I would love to learn discipline from you.

I believe that that is the first principle that you own. You've got your arms around it. I don't know if I could learn. I don't know this yet. So maybe this is going to be fighting words. I don't know if I could learn coming from a place of abundance. And so these might be fighting words. And so I don't want to fight about it, but okay. I want to tell you a story here is if you're trying to shape an athlete from scarcity, desperation, or from abundance and, yeah, let's go abundance. Abundance or desperation, like one of those two. I think you came from scarcity.

Mom came from a place of fear. I don't know if you do or not. That's why I'm not sure if I would be able to learn that from you. Because you've experienced so much. You have abundance. I believe that you have love, deep love in your heart. When I look at your track record of the decisions you made to go back to be around mom, to go back to be around dad, right? To name your house after mom.

I believe love is big for you. So I don't know if I'm touching a nerve, but I would love to know if I could also learn the approach from abundance. It's a great question. It's a really great question. And I don't know the answer to that question because that really hasn't been my experience. And your experience is the very thing that shapes you. over the years, I have an abundance of things that have shaped me because of my successes. And I don't put the cart before the horse when it comes to thinking that I don't rely on my successes at all, at all. I get that. I totally get that for Yeah. Yeah. So every everything that I go into, I go into wanting it to be as simple as possible. As simple. Teach simple. I mean put in, I think I'm masterful when it comes to knowing certain things on the floor.

But that doesn't make me a great coach because I know more than other people. What makes me a great coach is I know how to meet people where they are, to take them where they need to go. So that means if a player, let's just say a player had a learning disability, but they're a great player. Like I'm watching our freshman class, trying to figure out all the newness of how we teach basketball. And we teach basketball. We start the simplest form. We go to a basketball stance. How elementary is that? How, how campish is that? But every single year from year one to year, I'm starting 22. We start the same exact way from a, from a defensive standpoint, the same way from a defensive standpoint. And by the time someone's a junior or senior, they're like, they're bored with it. And you get bored with being disciplined.

Like, it's a boring place to do something over and over and over. The same thing, the simplest thing, over and over and over again, I see the spectrum of the newbies who have no idea what we're talking about to the juniors who look like they've done it all their lives. And then the seniors who are just completely bored with it because this is their fourth or fifth year that they have to do this. And depending on how quickly the youngsters grasp it, we can move forward. Okay, so from discipline, if we're not careful, we become rigid, right? There's like over-discipline is like,

we just get, this is me speaking about me and my life. Like if there's too much discipline, there's a monotony to it. There's a boredom to it. There is a, I get kind of beat down and, and I get where I'm, what my teachers are trying to do is be disciplined to groove the behaviors and to become familiar with the best thoughts. Right. So we're eliminating variance by trying to, you know, stay true to one thing. So that thing becomes masterful and then we build on it.

How do you help people express the creative part? Because I heard it earlier where you're just like, hey, some coaches just rolled the ball out and said, do your thing because you've earned the right because you've been so disciplined that they trust you. This is the art of coaching now from discipline to creative. And maybe you say, Hey, listen, there's no space for creative. Just do, do, do the blueprint. No, there's always space for creative. I mean, and I'll take our freshman class. One of our players is super special. Like she can do things that no one else on our team as a freshman can do. Her

basketball IQ was, you know, off the roof. Her, her court vision is incredible. Her, her movements are, you know, are so natural. So when we slow her down and say, this is how we want to play for right now. She is half the athlete that she is. She's in full, she's thinking, she's slow, she's in thought, she stops. So you have to communicate. This is very new for you. You're going to go through thought process. And she's a perfectionist. So she's trying to get it right. So discipline is just keep her on that path. But just kind of explain to her that this is going to help you eventually. It doesn't feel like it right now, but it's going to help you. So here's what I need you to do. I need you to play through it because we need to get to your greatness. Because our greatness is on the other side of it, but she's trying to figure it out. And we need to take our minds through

figuring things out. Because if you just play off of what you do in your greatness, that's all you're going to rely on. If somebody else is greater in that, you don't have anything to fall back on. So it's teaching her mental strength. It's teaching her to train her thoughts and her body. Because once that becomes one, she's going to be able to do some more incredible things. I like to teach our players not to do these things because if you learn them, you can play for anybody.

Like you can play for not just for for us and our coaching staff but when it's time for you to get to the next level and the next level after that it's a matter of just semantics and if you have an understanding of it but the you know the the terminology is a little bit different you're going to fit in and you're going to have ultimately longevity in basketball. I asked a similar type question to a multiple world champion in wrestling. And it's definitely an alpha competitive sport. And I said, how? You know, like trying to oversimplify it.

Like, how are you so good? And he goes, you know, I don't want to sound arrogant, but I just know the alphabet. I know the full alphabet. So now I'm just putting words together that are fun to play with. And I think you know the alphabet. Is that right? You know the alphabet of basketball. Yes.

You know the alphabet. Okay. So you're playing now. Okay. So let's go back to this really eloquent thing that you just said, which is like helping them blend. Gosh, that's not how you said it put together their body and their their mind. How did you say that? Is something to that effect? to strengthen someone's mentality without failure. So when their minds and bodies match up, it will take them a lot further than just their bodies because everybody gets tired and fatigued.

So what happens when you get tired and fatigued? Something else has to kick in. And that's your habits and your mentality. Like you have to be mentally, I'm a firm believer in this. And a coach taught me this. And a coach taught her this, which is, and I think it's a Bobby Knight quote. And I believe Bobby Knight said, that mental is the physical as four is to one. And it took me a while to really understand that. Just as an adult, it took me to understand that because for so long growing up, I was better physically and skill-wise.

I was better than everybody else. But when it was time for me to try out for the 1992 Olympic team and some other more experienced players had something that I didn't have and I get cut, that's when you start realizing it's more than just the physical part of it. And you get cut, you can't be physical anymore. It's mental. It's mental to get over, you know, not being able to do something that you worked so hard for. How about that? Is that, yeah, if you really want to do something special, you're going to face challenges. Those challenges are not physical. At all. How about it? At all. Right? Yeah. And those challenges happen on the court.

They happen off the court. And the same internal strategies and skills will hopefully be available both on the court and off the court. So four to one. How do you go about this four to one ratio? I don't get a sense that this is going to hook back around trust. Right? get a sense that this is going to hook back around trust, right? Like I think, I think if you're going to bring somebody into your team, you're, you're probably going to start with like, well, let's see what you got, you know, like a professional, like another coach or whatever, or a sports psych and that, that you got to earn trust with you because that's a strong framework that you come from. So do you, do you bring anyone in onto your team to help with,

let's call it mental imagery, meditation, goal setting, self-talk, you know, do you do it? Do you bring anyone in or are you a couple of steps ahead and you are teaching your athletes?

I don't. In that regards, I do in team building life skills skills um i i i do believe that you you have to have different voices because your players can tire of your voice um and that's probably why i don't talk a whole lot like i don't i'm not a i'm not a talking coach like i talk when i i feel like uh what i say will penetrate our players i mean there's there's mom right what's up mom you know she's coming through like i the older i get the more the more mom i'm mom like and my hair stands up when i talk to you like it's just the truth of it like i believe you like you get right to the to the truth so how do you how do you this

is not related to this this conversation right now because that's not what i'm about to say is not happening right here but how did you develop from mom i I'm imagining, the ability to speak the truth and probably the truth to power? You know, like I believe that you would stand up for anybody. So how did you learn to speak the truth? I learned to speak the truth when you really start listening to your heart. Because it's heart driven. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. That's so big.

Yeah. Right? because it's heart driven. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. That's so big. That's right. Because it's not like, hey, these are the right thoughts to have. It's go and understand within what is true from your feeling, from your belief system, from and then the words will just happen. Is that?

That is so true. And I don't think I'm a great public speaker like me if I'm judging myself. But everybody I seem to talk to or or when I'm giving a public speech, they walk away with thinking I'm you know, I get a lot of standing ovations and I don't really get it. But in some ways I do because I am, I am speaking like me. I am unapologetic. I speak what I think my truth is. And I don't, I don't, I'm not judgmental. I just let people be who they are. And again, I meet them where they are, whether I'm giving a speech or not. And that's who my mother is.

Bless her soul, like, you know, in heaven. But let me, let me just give you a... Wait, wait, you can't run over these feelings that you're feeling right now. What just happened? Yeah, what just happened? Yeah. I mean, I don't know because I was shy, like uncomfortably shy when I went from the projects of North Philly to Virginia. I was good around my teammates, bad media. Like I would get one word answers. And as I reflect on it, it was because I didn't trust. Like I didn't trust the people who were asking me the questions.

I didn't know them. And I don't give myself. I wasn't back then. I don't I didn't give myself to people without having a certain level of trust. So. And I look at myself now and you really can't shut me up, but I don't say more than the words that are needed. That was a kind of a delicate balance, but I learned that from my mother. Like I truly learned all of it from my mother because I watched her. She was the person in my household that allowed me the range of emotions that taught me through her example. So it was a pretty cool dynamic, although there were some days where, you know, I felt her wrath. Yeah.

And she was just guiding, though. She was just guiding, guiding, guiding to where she knew when I left her household, I was going to be okay. Even when I, you know, sometimes I watch our students student my players come here and they get from under their parents and then they just do things they go and get tattoos you know on the first day that they're here because they're not under the guise of their parents um anymore but I was never that way I carried and I and my father had something to do with this too, but my mother was the strongest figure in my life because she was the one that was administering the discipline.

And my father was a quiet man and just allowed, everybody had a role. He was the provider. You know, she was the disciplinarian um and we just we just knew growing up in our household brothers and sisters yes three brothers yes yeah you've that's right you've had you've experienced quite a bit of let's call it death and disease in your family right and so i want to get to the grief part, like because you've got some experience here.

So I want to get to how, what insights you have going through the grief process before we go there. I'd like to know like great explorers. They're trying to figure something out. I see you as an explorer. What, what are you trying to figure out? For me, I'm trying to, I owe basketball a great deal. Like, I feel like I'm forever indebted to the game for all the things that it's given me. And I want to figure out each, each of my players. I want to figure out what,

what's inside of them, what, and I want to help them find their niche in life. And I hope it's basketball because I'm, I'm pretty good at it. I've dedicated my entire life to it, but also, I also know that there's more, there's more to life than basketball. I mean, it's a big part of it. And it's been a big part of my life. So I understand that part of it. But I know that there's only a certain percentage of women that's, that's going to be able to be pros. So I have to balance, you know, and I'm guilty of being a coach that coaches from the worst-case scenario. Worst case. I try to put our players in a worst-case scenario, whether it's life or whether it's on the court,

because anything outside of that creates advantages. So if they can fight their way out of being in the worst situation, everything else is going to be quite simple to navigate. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day. And Cozy Earth has become a new part of that. Their bedding, it's incredibly soft, like next level soft.

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them out. Head to calderalab.com slash finding mastery and use the code finding mastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash finding mastery. What is a compromise worst case scenario situation that you create in practice? So in practice, if we're going over a press breaker, right? I'll put them in the corner, the corner furthest away from the basket, right? And they're double teamed, right? You get out of the corner, you're going to create a transitional advantage but getting out of that corner is hard to navigate whether it's you know

pass fakes whether it's pivoting whether it's whether it's uh jump passing. There is a lot of skill set and thought that goes into how do I get myself out of this situation? And once they do, they'll appreciate getting out because the reward is at the other end of the back, the other end of the court where we're scoring with these. There's an app metaphor for life there, which is to put yourself mentally in scenarios that you know are going to be difficult and work through those, you know, first, maybe it's on paper, maybe it's role playing, maybe it's practice in a boardroom or whatever, you know, but to at least have an idea about how things could go wrong and not just stay there, but have the idea of what could go wrong or what could be hard. And then to practice inside of that, to sort it out. There's an apt metaphor for life there. Yeah, but for me, I'm my very best when things aren't going well.

I don't like when everything's comfortable. I don't like being in that place because you tend to let your guard down. So how do you let go of control? That's where I was going to go with you. Because I see that you've got a command of yourself. And what you're just describing here is like, when it's unfolding and unpredictable and it's a bit chaotic, I'm at my best.

But you keep your guard up. Tell me about that, because there's a vulnerability required to take risk. So how do you, and listen, your track record speaks for itself like you go for it so how do you do that and not like lose control if you will because i think that's what people are afraid of is that if they take a shot they take a risk they do something that is kind of breaking the rules or whatever to sort it out and it doesn't go right that they won't be able to handle the downstream effects from it. I think my approach is, I'm in the space of operating. What would you do

if you knew you wouldn't fail? It's really powerful. I get confused with it. So help me. I understand it. I understand it, but I get caught. I get caught in a loop there. I don't get rattled. Like, Oh, that's where you take that. Okay. Yes. I don't flinch. I don't, I don't flinch. I don't engage someone go. If our opponent goes on a 10-0 run, you know, most coaches are like, quick, quick, quick, quick. Right. But you have to assess because a 10-0 run doesn't mean that you're not taking good shots.

It doesn't mean that you aren't defending the 10-0 run. It's just they made a better play. You made it hard for them, but they just made a play. And if you're taking good shots, they're going to eventually fall. It's going to balance itself out. All right. So you're looking below a level. You're not getting caught up in the scoreboard.

You're like, are we taking good shots? Are we in our right defensive posture? Are we making good decisions? If we are, it's going to work out because what else can we do right is that where you come from like yeah what else can so i've seen that you really like the concept the the framework control what you can yeah like so you focus most of your efforts on controllables is that fair to say yes yeah i think you've mastered them i go a step further than just for you like when i when i listen and i watch that you're not just trying to control them you're actually trying to

master the things that are in your control and i think you're probably trying to teach that to the athletes you're coaching so what are the things let's be super academic here what are the things that you focus on that are in your control that you're helping others master? Attitude. That's one. A hundred percent is, is huge. Like top of my list is to be able to communicate. And for me, communication is, is, is that some, some young people really

don't know how to communicate appropriately in different situations. I don't care about that. You're talking about like a, like a frown cut with an eye, you know, the cut, yeah, the cut with the eye, you know, it it says so much i was talking to an athlete this was up at the seahawks and um he suffers no fools this is an alpha okay suffers no fools i said um i said how do you how do you sort out who you trust he goes i just watch if they can cut somebody with their eyes and do it to their face i'm gonna trust them and so you know what i mean by cut with the eyes right like you just, it's just like a little look like, Hey, we're going to drop our shoulders and we're going to look at each other. And like, if I give you that nod, like,

are you real? And the other person flinches. So yeah, that is so good. Okay. So that's what you're talking about too. Sometimes it's just, it's a way you carry yourself, not necessarily the words that you choose. It is nice when they both line up, though. Yeah, it's good. I like for people to express themselves and not hold back. You know, I would say I do. I do. The caveat is you really can't do it in front of a team.

I don't do it in front of a team. I don't do it in front of a team. If you really have something to say, you know, come speak to me one on one. Curse, scream, cry, do whatever you need to do. We can work out appropriate delivery. We can work that out. We can. That's not an issue. We can't always get to the young person expressing themselves and saying what's on their minds and hearts. So I I have an open mouth policy to say what you need to say, even sometimes in a in a in a team setting, because. Well, you use it as a lesson. We'll use it. Like I was big on, I don't, I haven't had to deal with this in quite a long time in that when we had, I made them stay in the gym and maybe get on a bike or get on a treadmill so they can be in this environment so they can learn. Leaving them and letting them go, that's what they want to do. Be on their own terms and go back and get on FaceTime. No, let's stay here. Let's learn. Let's see what other people are doing so you can see what the appropriate behavior is and how we need to act in a team setting.

So I just I really think that's a just a evolution in coaching, because sometimes you just you want to just separate yourself from the bad behavior but son that's not even that's not helping the person they need examples of what how to do it the right way that's cool because sometimes when if i reach that place and it's that type of thing like okay get out of here that's actually a relief for me which is not that's not what I'm trying to sort out either. You know? So yeah, I love that insight. That's a powerful insight. What, how do you speak to yourself? Like, I'd love to know the language that you use inside. How do you speak to yourself when you are, it's good to be you now, when it's real good

in there? How do you speak to yourself? I don't know if I do speak to myself. Oh, my God. Of course you do. You've got a whole narrative in there. You've got a whole. Well, I don't know if I'm speaking to myself

or if I'm just assessing situations. Maybe I do. Let me just give you this example. Because I do speak to myself. I interviewed for the Portland Trailblazers, right? Yes. It was a, it was like when they first expressed that they had interest. And before they expressed that I really had no interest in coaching NBA, WNBA, anything.

None, like no answer to me. And maybe it's because nobody really had interest in me. But the moment they had interest in me, I had interest in it. And I think mainly because of the challenge, because it was something different, something new, something that not very many college coaches have had success right away anyway. So leading up to the, and it was probably five or six days between, you know, when I talked to them and when the interview was. So it occupied my mind a lot like I visualized me being in the locker room there were NBA playoff games going on so I would just kind of put myself in those situations what would you do how would you react you know I'm a Sixers fan so I'm looking at the Sixers and I'm watching Ben Simmons, you know, just lose confidence. He's one of the focal points of our team and he just lost confidence. I'm like, what would I say to him? What would I do to him?

All while, you know, looking at the looking at this interview that I'll have in a few days and saying, you know, how do I prepare for this? And I'm asking myself, like, how do you prepare? Like what? I really don't know anything about coaching in the NBA, but here's what I do know. I know people. I know my separation and coaching has a lot to do with my interaction and me forging relationships with people. So that's what I'm going to expound on. The X and an O-ing is X and an O-ing. You can learn that. I think I have things that coaches can't learn at this point of their careers because it is the very thing that I've built my career on, which is the person and figuring out how to deal with them and all the things that they're thinking about and all the things that they want to achieve

while not compromising the sanctity of the team. And I think that's what's missing in the NBA. I think you're right. And I want to go two ways on this. One is the way you speak to yourself is that you create images about what something in the future could look like, and then you're working your way through it. How could I? How would I?

What would be a solution? And then underneath that, I think you've got this fundamental belief that probably isn't evident to you, but this fundamental belief that I can do hard things. I know people put me in a situation. I can do hard things. And I know people, people, those two combined. And yes, I can learn all the X's and O's. And I listen, I know a lot of them. I can learn all that. It's the foxhole. That's the foxhole.

Yeah, it's a foxhole thing. But it's your two kind of crown jewels right now that seems to me are you know people and you know virtues and values and how to bring those out of people, but you understand humanness. And then the other is that you can do hard things. You've been through hard times. The most hard times is losing loved ones, but you've been through hard times and you understand that you had to stay intact during them. Are those your two of your crown jewels and discipline is the way that you bring that out? Well said. I couldn't say that. I couldn't, I couldn't eloquently say that. We got there together. We got there together. Yeah, yeah. We got there together on it. Thank you.

Okay. So, all right. Here's what I think you and the NBA, the only thing I get tripped up on is that the reputation of like the coaches don't have as much power as players. I don't know if you can manage that. You know, like you're going to have a command. You're like, they'd be in it for a shocker. How about that? Here's what I think about NBA players. I think they want to, they want something they can believe in when they can look good in it and they have an impact on it. Like the stars are the stars.

And there's a pecking order when it comes to NBA teams. Where I think I'm really good at is I certainly will let the stars be the stars but as the other people, the people that sit at the end of the bench, you have to bring value to them. You have to allow them to see value in themselves and the team without playing as many minutes as they want to play, but still bring value to them. And and that's a role that, you know, from the outside looking in and in talking to the Portland Trailblazers is a big part of how do you how do you discipline the superstars? How do you keep the culture of a team while holding them accountable to behaviors that are detrimental to the team?

Yeah, I'm right there with you. And what practices do you have? It's pretty simple. It's you have to forge that relationship with each and every player. And you have to manage that. Whether it's, and again, I go back to my point guard skills. I know I'm the coach. I know I'm the coach. They know they're the superstars. They know they're the role players. So what I would do is I would, it's, it's just communicating. It's frank conversations.

You'll figure out how they like to take an information because ultimately you want them to, to be who they are while respecting the whole sanctity of the team. And you, if you look at the, the whole evolution of a basketball season, the more you win, the tighter you get. It is. Like, look at the Phoenix Suns.

They're tight. They're playing for a purpose, and that purpose is their coach. And the tragedy that he went through, they're playing for a point guard who's never been to an NBA finals and never won a championship. And they got a young star who is having the best playoff series of his career and comparable to other ones, the best in probably a long time being a young player. So you look at that dynamic and then everybody else, you see all the players who don't even play. They're in it. They're in it. How do you create that? In the preseason and then during this and hold on to it during the season and create the momentum you need to win a championship, you do it by communicating and creating a togetherness and addressing when

things occur. I believe that success has a certain look, a certain sound, and a certain feel. And if something doesn't look, sound, or feel right, you got to address it. You can't not address it because you're just allowing it to grow. And when you allow it to grow, it starts seeping in. It becomes a bigger problem to overcome in a season. And you'll go through things that would take a five-minute conversation. But yet it's grown to a month, to two months. And now you're not only just trying to win basketball games, you're trying to dig yourself out of what's happening with your team.

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because quality sleep is just too important to leave to chance. Sometimes people will sell a virtue or a principle for a short-term win, or they'll sell it for avoidance of uncomfortableness, right? It's, it's those two things yeah and i'm like i'm on the record saying that um values and virtues and all character traits whatever you want to call them are um they're cheap until you have to pay for them and then they get really expensive and they're not yours until you pay for them they're not yours you know so i you know They're not yours. You know, so I, you know, you are relationship based, developmentally minded and completely authentic. I think you go into any room, any coaching environment, um, and be an absolute agent for mastery, for brilliance. And you had

said that you, one of your missions in life, that's my word, not yours is to help unlock the greatness in others. I think you do it by having a true, authentic commitment to development and relationships. Those two, how do you help people see what's possible or do they show it to you and you just play it back to them? I just have a, a, a real insatiable desire to, to, for the, for the process, desire to help people do their process. So do I see it? Um, I don't see it in all of them. They don't show me.

Everyone doesn't show me it, but everybody has something inside of them. So I don't go in with preconceiveds. Again, I meet people where they are. That's something that a lot of people don't do. If I think somebody can be great, I don't expect greatness like today. It's a journey. You got to lead them to the greatness. You tell them how good they are and how good they can be. But where are you today? Okay. And then you have to stop.

Where are you tomorrow? Where are you the next day? And how does it measure up to where you're trying to go? Yeah. You got to be real. I was going the same place about honesty is that I think you're creating honest humans. They don't always like it though. No, I understand. is that I think you're creating honest humans. They don't always like it though. They know,

I understand. They learn to like it and respect it because they see the growth. That's hard when they don't see growth. It's really hard when a young person doesn't see themselves getting better. But then you have to act, you have to show them, I sit down with them. Hey,

this is what you were doing like two weeks ago. You're not doing that anymore. Even a little bit. Or you're not doing it. You're doing the same thing. You're getting worse. So let's figure out how we just skin better. And, and they, there's buy-in to that. There's buy-in, there's huge buy-in. And I also think that creating an environment where, where others are on that same mission to, to be great, because if they're not, the synergy's off. Somebody is going to pull somebody away from their from their growth and their path to be great.

And for you, is greatness measured externally or internally? Or is there some sort of hybrid between the two? Because you have all of the accolades, three-time Olympian, gold medalist. Like you've got fill in the blanks. It keeps going. But when you think about greatness and then a togetherness of greatness, I don't want to sound Pollyannish when I say this because I've experienced this. And we won everything at the Super Bowl through this method at the Seahawks, which was it was a full commitment for people to operate at their upper limits on a consistent basis. And we thought we might win, but it was almost like an afterthought. It was really the commitment was to work at our very best collectively together towards our upper reaches day in and day out,

recover as if it was the thing that mattered most so you could go do the other thing that mattered most which is work your ass off the next day together so it really when i say this and not be pollyannish is are you committed to people working towards their very best or are you committed is greatness building a dynasty where you win over and over and over again? For me, it's the people. It really is. Shocker. Yeah, shocker. Yeah.

Yeah, it's like you have to build a culture first. Culture of? You have to build a culture of players having the synergy to be great every day and to compete every day. And I say this because we're in a position that not a whole lot of programs have been in. Like, we've got 16 players. I believe 11 of them are, like, All-American high school players. I believe 11 of them are like all American high school players, 11, 11. And then the other players are great in their own right. So I'm thinking, how are we going to how are they going to differentiate?

How are they going to edge each other out when it when it comes to playing time and divvying up the playing time? It's an incredible competitive environment that some of them are going to sing or swim. But we're going to arm them with whatever they need to be successful. And we're not going to let them off the hook because this is what they signed up for and it is it's much like a WNBA team and I'm so happy because these players have they believed in this environment they want this now I know we're we're we're you know we're six months removed from being in the middle of the season, but right now they have a, there's a cool innocence and purity about where they are at this stage of our season. uh naming the starting lineup and and getting substitution patterns we know we know and we hope there isn't issues there's going to be some issues but it's cool for me as a coach to to work through them during the process so when it happens to them if they don't get the plan time

that they want they've already been through it. So they already know how to, how to react to it, even though they don't like it, even though it's something that, you know, they didn't envision in their minds, them sitting for 20 minutes of a game or 30 minutes of a game. We're playing only 10 minutes. So it's, it's, it's, it's such a cool dynamic that I'm so looking forward to because, again, it's a challenge. It's a huge challenge for us to get them to believe in each other and still believe in themselves, even though they're not getting what they want. So, I mean, I'm looking forward to it because it's much different than I've ever coached in 22 years. It really is like an all-star team that you're pulling together. It is.

Yeah, not just for one weekend, but for months. Okay. Is there a decision or an experience that changed everything for you? I have to go back to when I got cut from the 1992 Olympic team. It was a huge lesson, life lesson for me because I had never failed that bad. Meaning, I mean, the only thing growing up, the only thing I wanted to do, being in that house, that row home and the housing projects, I didn't see women play. But but twice on TV, that was Olympic Games and National Championship. So when I got cut in 1992, that was just like me.

You know, there was a goal. There was a goal. And I reached the crossroad of, do I think because I got cut, it's a political thing, so I'm not going to go back? Or I'm going to put myself in a position where I'm going to be an asset the next time that I try off on the Olympic team. They're not going to leave me off the roster. So I chose the latter and worked my butt off. They said when I got cut, there were two reasons. I was too short and I didn't have enough international experience. So I couldn't do anything about my height, but I surely can arm myself with international experience. So I packed up and played for three years. And when that rolled around in 1995, you know, three, three Olympic gold medals later, if I didn't, if I, if I chose to go the other route and not hurdle that, I would not be a two-time assistant coach, gold medal Olympian, and I wouldn't be the head coach of an Olympic team today. So I chose to go the hardest route and not the easiest route.

And I got to the other side and it's been plentiful. Where were you when you got the information or the news that you didn't make the team? We were there at the Olympic Training Center. You were there. And so were you with others or did you walk up by yourself to a board and see who was on the cut line? No, they brought you in one by one. One by one? One by one. The committee members and they tell you whether you made it or not. And how old were you i was 20

22 years old 1992 i was college player of the year that's right um the best player in american basketball you know for college and so when you were walking in did you have a sense that you didn't make it or did you think like oh, oh, yeah, I'm a winner. No, I thought I played well enough to make it. Right. Okay. And then so they brought you in. And how did that, do you remember what you were wearing?

I don't. I was probably wearing some USA basketball gear. Okay. And then when you came in, you sat down, I would imagine. One coach or two coaches were in there? There were two people not coaches committee members committee members and however they delivered it what was your experience when you heard the news and they said you i'm unfortunate i'm sorry or whatever they said um i mean when i i reacted

like most young people which was it's bullshit and it's political. You said that right away? No, I mean my bubble. Your bubble. See, you do talk to yourself. Look at you. Okay. So you said bullshit and political.

And then interesting that you blamed the circumstances. You didn't. But then you changed your internal approach. So you didn't just get stuck blaming. Yeah, it was something that I wanted. And I like to prove people wrong. I do. I like to prove them wrong. I like to be an odds beater because it's the very thing that fuels me.

Do you have a chip still? Yes, I coach with a chip. Yes. You do? Okay. So look, how do you do that? Because you've won everything. What else is there to win? I mean, there are haters and detractors out there i know i was i was hoping you'd go there i was being silly with that because you've got lots of press on you like favor amazingly favorable press but then you've got like press that is i would imagine hard to read but maybe you don't read it maybe you don't read some of that stuff i read it all okay so how do you deal with which what is one of the ones i

don't want to give any power to any particular writer but give me a theme that shows up that you go well it it may not be a theme that's directed to it's indirect it's indirectly impacting me and our team. So go back to 2020, okay? Women's basketball, the decision makers of women's basketball decided that they were going to push Sabrina Unescu the whole season, which, don't get me wrong, probably one of the greatest college players ever to play the game and deserving of the spotlight beginning of the year she's coming in they went to the final four the previous year she's got triple doubles on triple doubles on triple doubles um there's room for her to be to be celebrated right same year um we we lose a game in november and then we never lost the game since and we ended up somehow they they lost and and and it it was kind of swept under the rug, but we were winning, and we kept getting this momentum to compete for a national championship.

Now, at this time, you have to understand that we're a predominantly Black team coached by a Black coach, and the narrative never shifted. They never pivoted. They continued on with this narrative. And I'm, I'm wondering why. And I didn't, I didn't really say a whole lot during that time because I didn't want to be a distraction to our team, but I'm reading,

I'm looking, I'm, you know, I'm keeping notes and then looking, I'm, you know, I'm keeping notes. And then the bottom falls out. Right. Yeah. So, and I, when the bottom fell out, they continue with the narrative of Sabrina, which I know was her last year and all, all of that room for her to be reveled in that. But then you don't speak on who was the number one team for

the past nine weeks of the season you never really give us the pub publicity because you're sticking with that narrative now i don't know if it's a race thing or what but i did have a few choice words to some to a decision maker and was I wrong no I don't think I was wrong but I told them how I felt and I told them how it looked not not just for South Carolina but for the rest of women's basketball because there were there were a lot of great stories that weren't covered and we missed the mark and the bottom fell out so the only thing that people are going to hear about is the one narrative when when maybe maybe they said they were going to do do these stories during the NCAA tournament but we never had an NCAA tournament because the bottom fell out pandemic pandemic hit, and now we're left with not these untold stories. I mean, they ended up

doing a feature, an hour feature on us during that time, but I'm still, I was still talking about the other stories that we missed, and I don't think it will change. I think they're going to go to the hottest thing. in our game because that's what our game has been built on is the stories, the great athletes, the great teams. Let's not lose sight of that. I just feel like that's a chip. That's a huge chip that I coach with. Who are some of the... If you could sit with a master of craft somebody that is alive or not with us anymore and you could you know sit at their knee for a little bit what who would you

want to learn from who'd you want to have that conversation with just any craft yeah for sure you know i i would you know this this is a this is a weird one and not out of left field. But this is one person that I grew up watching from afar. It's Princess Diana. I've always had a. Yeah. Yeah. I always had it. I always had something hearing about what she does, what she what she did for young people and underprivileged. I just really found her fascinating. And if you had one question, I don had one question, I would ask her. What she would do differently.

To impact a mass of people, because one person, one person can really change how a mass of people think and operate. And when you can impact lots and lots of people, I think that's the most powerful thing in a positive way now, because we've got somebody that can impact a mass of people in a negative way and find ourselves where we are today. Not to be political. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. How do you,

how do you finish this thought? It all comes down to. Beating the odds. My vision is. Is to help as many people as possible. I believe that. There is a God. Mastery is.

Mastery is? Mastery is having an understanding of the good, the bad, the ugly of a craft and being able to explain it to anyone. I am. My mother's child. Love is. Exceptional. You feel all that, don't you? I do. Yeah.

Don, I've loved this conversation. Same here. Very different than the podcast I've been on. I've learned a whole lot. And I appreciate you just sharing your expertise and helping me realize really the power of me. Because sometimes I just don't stop. I don't stop to figure things out.

I just continue to go and try to, you know, try to help people as much as possible. Well, you know, thank you. This has been fun and meaningful and a joy. And it's everything I hope for, you know, in this this conversation and i don't know what this is worth but so i spent about a decade in inside the nfl working with the team the seahawks as i mentioned earlier you could run that team you could run a team coach carol's doing a great job i'm not saying it like that you you and and i think about like that alpha male environment, you know? And like, how tall are you?

Five, six. Yeah, you're running that team. Like, so I'd love to do that with you. Like, can you imagine? And I bet you don't know much about football, but that is so secondary because you get a great offensive coordinator, you get a great defensive coordinator on the X's and O's

and you pick it up quickly. It's not, you know, you understand the language of humans and you understand the language of high performance. Like what a thought experiment that is for me right now to imagine you doing that. Hey, listen, thank you. If there's anything I can do to ever help you along your path, I'm honored to have this brief time that we've shared. So I'm grateful for it. And honestly, thank you very much.

Thank you. Appreciate it. Appreciate it. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no-cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're

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