Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Does Manifestation Really Work? Top Neuroscientist on the Power of Intention | Dr. James Doty

Episode Date: January 15, 2025

What if compassion isn’t just a nice to have—but a game-changer for high performance?Dr. James Doty is a world-renowned neurosurgeon, a clinical professor at Stanford, and the founder of the Center for Compassion and Altruism Research and Education (CCARE). He’s also the NYT bestselling author of Into The Magic Shop: A Neurosurgeon’s Quest to Discover the Mysteries of the Brain and the Secrets of the Heart—a book that has inspired millions to rethink what really drives success and fulfillment.In this episode, James shares his remarkable journey from a challenging childhood to becoming a leader in neurosurgery and compassion research. We dive deep into how kindness, vulnerability, and mindfulness can supercharge resilience, connection, and peak performance.We also unpack James’ latest book, Magic Mind, exploring the neuroscience of manifestation—what’s real, what’s hype, and how science can help us unlock our true potential.If you’re interested in understanding how compassion can be a catalyst for profound change in both your inner and outer world, then this conversation is for you. _________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Finding Mastery is brought to you by Remarkable. In a world that's full of distractions, focused thinking is becoming a rare skill and a massive competitive advantage. That's why I've been using the Remarkable Paper Pro, a digital notebook designed to help you think clearly and work deliberately. It's not another device filled with notifications or apps.

It's intentionally built for deep work. So there's no social media, no email, no noise. The writing experience, it feels just like pen on paper. I love it. And it has the intelligence of digital tools like converting your handwriting to text, organizing your notes, tagging files, and using productivity templates

to help you be more effective. It is sleek, minimal. It's incredibly lightweight. It feels really good. I take it with me anywhere from meetings to travel without missing a beat. What I love most is that it doesn't try to do everything. It just helps me do one very important thing really well,

stay present and engaged with my thinking and writing. If you wanna slow down, if you wanna work smarter, I highly encourage you to check them out. Visit remarkable.com to learn more and grab your paper pro today. How does compassion contribute to living a high-performing life? Welcome back, or welcome to the Finding Mastery podcast, where we dive into the minds of the world's greatest thinkers and doers. I am your host, Dr. Michael Gervais, by trade and training a high-performance psychologist. Today, we have Dr. James Doty, a leading neurosurgeon and founder of Stanford Center for Compassion and Altruism Research and Education. James's journey from a difficult

upbringing to his role as a top neurosurgeon and researcher reveals the transformative power of compassion, empathy, and mindfulness. In this episode, we explore how vulnerability and kindness can enhance resilience, well-being, and performance, three things I know we're all interested in. So with that, let's jump right into this enlightening conversation with Dr. James Doty. Dr. James, this is so great to be sitting with you. There are so many people in my community that have been on the podcast. When I ask them afterwards, like, hey, who do you think would be fun? Your name has come up a bunch.

Really? Yeah. That's because I use profanity probably. Great. And I kind of doubt that's the main reason. But before we jump into it, like, how are you? Good, good. Listen, I'm happy to be here. And I have to say, I don't mean to sound

inauthentically humble, but I feel great gratitude and privilege for people interested in the work that I'm doing. Well, you're making a dent. You're making a bit of a ripple across the world. And the fact that people that I trust have pointed to you, it's really quite incredible as a compliment. And your writings and what you're doing is really rich. And one more thing. I think we're going to say a lot of the same things, but I think there's something about this word manifestation that I need to understand

because I don't know the word. I don't really like the word. It makes my skin crawl a little bit and you love it. So I want to get into the science underneath of it. And I want to have fun understanding why a big horsepower like yourself, you know, chose to focus on manifesting? Well, there are a couple of reasons. As you know, I wrote a book called Into the Magic Shop, Neurosurgeon's Quest to Discover the Mysteries of the Brain and the Secrets of the Heart. Yes. And, you know, that book really took off and was a New York Times bestseller, bestseller in eight countries and 36 languages. But one of the key aspects of that was not only the memoir aspect and the story of my own life, but also lessons I learned. And some of

those lessons relate to actually walking into the magic shop. And I met a woman who really changed the trajectory of my life. And we can certainly go into that. But fundamentally, she taught me a mindfulness practice. Now, this was in the late 60s, so that term wasn't used. But just as importantly, and in the book, I called it a visualization practice. But in fact, it was a manifestation practice. And believe me, as you probably know, I am not into woo-woo or pseudoscience. Right.

I understand that. Yeah. You've been at Stanford since 1997. And as a neurosurgeon and a well-learned human, when I saw this subtitle, it totally caught me off guard. And so that's why really I wanted to have you on. So as a science-based practitioner that is deeply interested in the human potential and the human frontier, here we are talking about this word manifestation. Now, you and I can talk

for a long time about the power of mental imagery, performance imagery, visualization, as you called it. We can also talk about the science and the ancient traditions of mindfulness. I still don't use the word manifestation. So let's just go straight to it. What does manifestation mean to you? Well, let me just respond to your comment because fundamentally I have the same response you have. Oh, you do. But you have to understand also within the eyes of the lay public, they have been convinced it is something it's not. And what I mean by that is manifestation is not a get-rich-quick scheme. In fact, if you use it for that, you're lost.

And in fact, you're going to be unhappy. But there are certain fundamental principles outside of the woo-woo and pseudoscience that has been attached to it that actually are extraordinary. And so because so much or so many people in the lay public are connected to this because they want to have this belief that it's going to change their lives then they attach on to things as an example like the secret and the secret

of course promotes this narrative that I want this I want that I can get this through these techniques and the reality is on some level you can, but there's a difference between what you need and what you want. And I think that distinction is really critically important. Getting back to your initial question, what is manifestation? It is the ability to embed an intention or goal into your subconscious in such a way that it has the greatest likelihood to occur.

Period. Period. Okay. I can totally get down with that. And let me, from a science and an applied standpoint, so I think we get to the same place. I wasn't sure if that was going to exactly be the case. Let me make sure I hear what you're saying. I wanted to capture the language of a lay person, a non-scientist, a lay person, in the language that they're using, which is this

word of manifestation. And I wanted to understand the science to see what that was and convey it to a population that's already interested in the word. It's not so much the word, it's the practices is what I'm hearing from you. I think it's kind of dangerous, which that's why I respect that you're doing it. There's a TikTokification of the word, you know, manifestation. And let me just close my eyes and see a red Corvette, red Corvette. And then, you know, oh, it's not there. Okay, let me manifest harder. Close my eyes and, you know, red Corvette, red Corvette, me driving a red Corvette.

Yeah, that must be it. Driving a red, wait, red Corvette, be driving a red Corvette. Yeah, that must be it. Driving a red, wait, where is it? Man, I got to do whatever it takes now because I know I want to manifest a red Corvette. So I go kind of, I don't know, go on some path to just be about that. That's the dangerous part. And you're saying clearly that's not how this works. No, not at all. Okay. So let's pretend for a minute minute there's no baggage around the word. What would you point to the mechanics? You said imagery or visualization.

And what else did you point to as one of the pillars to get it down into the subconscious? Well, you have to do something called value tagging, right? You have to make that intention salient. But I think there are a couple points that are important to understand before we go there, if that's okay. Yeah, for sure. So I'm sure you know, of course, we're all quote unquote manifesting all the time, right? We have wish lists. We have things we want to do. For most people, though, it's simply that. I sort of want this.

But what also people don't understand is so many of us carry baggage from our childhood that we have been imprinted with habits and behaviors that we have no self-awareness of. And these habits and behaviors result oftentimes in how we interact with people, the jobs we choose, the partners we pick. And while on some level, if you have a quote-unquote good background where your caregivers were responsible, were thoughtful, were kind, were role models, you're probably okay. But unfortunately, and it took me a long time to appreciate this, that is not the case for the vast majority of people.

And as a result, they have a vision of themselves which they can't fully see, but that vision of themselves causes them to act in certain ways that for many people are negative or lead to bad consequences. And they sit there and they wonder, how did I get into this again? Right? Because they don't have any self-awareness. So one of the important things I think is to have metacognition or to use that term or an awareness of how this baggage you carry on an unconscious level affects you. Now, this may require therapy. It may require you really sitting down and going over your life and maybe journaling about how you're feeling or thoughts or bring up experiences that may have embedded certain types of, if you want to call it wrong thinking, because as an example,

if you have a caregiver, let's say a mother who on the one hand is abusive and physically or verbally abuses you and then sits there and tells you they love you, then you get screwed up between understanding what a relationship is all about. Yeah. And it keeps repeating itself. So until you have some awareness, it's hard to change. Finding Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Solutions. In any high-performing environment that I've been part of

from elite teams to executive boardrooms. One thing holds true. Meaningful relationships are at the center of sustained success and building those relationships. It takes more than effort. It takes a real caring about your people. It takes the right tools, the right information at the right time. And that's where LinkedIn Sales Navigator can come in. It's a tool designed specifically for thoughtful sales professionals, helping you find the right people that are ready to engage, track key account changes, and connect with key decision makers more effectively. It surfaces real-time signals, like when someone changes jobs or when an account becomes high priority, so that you can reach out at exactly the right moment with context and thoroughness that builds trust.

It also helps tap into your own network more strategically, showing you who you already know that can help you open doors or make a warm introduction. In other words, it's not about more outreach. It's about smarter, more human outreach. And that's something here at Finding Mastery that our team lives and breathes by. If you're ready to start building stronger relationships that actually convert, try LinkedIn Sales Navigator for free for 60 days at linkedin.com slash deal. That's linkedin.com slash deal for two full months for free. Terms and conditions apply. Fighting Mastery is brought to you by David Protein. I'm pretty intentional about what I eat and the majority of my nutrition comes from whole foods. And when I'm traveling or in between meals on a demanding day,

certainly, I need something quick that will support the way that I feel and think and perform. And that's why I've been leaning on David Protein Bars. And so has the team here at Finding Mastery. In fact, our GM, Stuart, he loves them so much. I just want to kind of quickly put him on the spot. Stuart, I know you're listening. I think you might be the reason that we're running out of these bars so quickly. They're incredible, Mike. I love them. One a day, one a day. What do you mean one a day? There's way more than that happening here. Don't tell. Okay. All right. Look, they're incredibly simple. They're effective. 28 grams of protein,

just 150 calories and zero grams of sugar. It's rare to find something that fits so conveniently into a performance-based lifestyle and actually tastes good. Dr. Peter Attia, someone who's been on the show, it's a great episode, by the way, is also their chief science officer. So I know they've done their due diligence in that category. My favorite flavor right now is the chocolate chip cookie dough. And a few of our teammates here at Finding Mastery have been loving the fudge brownie and peanut butter. I know, Stuart, you're still listening here.

So getting enough protein matters. And that can't be understated, not just for strength, but for energy and focus, recovery, for longevity. And I love that David is making that easier. So if you're trying to hit your daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David D-A-V-I-D protein P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash finding mastery.

So there's like gems per minute. You just hit like 15 of them. Okay. So let's go back to one of the first gems you shared, which is. Is that J-I-M or S or G? No, this is G, G-E-M, gems per minute. And so one of the first ones you just said was that we have an image of ourselves,

but we can't fully see it. Sometimes some people can't fully see it. I love that idea. That's a fresh and new idea. And the way that you just shared it was everything else that you shared after that was born on that first premise, which is we have an image and maybe it was piled on or co-created by some parents that were in their own fight in life, you know, and wanted to do their very best, but had a bunch of stuff under the

surface that they were working out. Sounds pretty familiar. And, and then this idea though, that we can't quite see the image of ourself. Can you spend a little bit more time there and open up your insights there? Sure. Well, part of the issue is we don't want to. Many of us have created an image of ourself that, frankly, is in part denial. As an example, if you were to say to people, do you lie? Many people go, no, I never lie. But if, in fact, you actually follow people, they lie all the time. Now, there's nothing wrong because the way we function in society, sometimes you have to be generous with compliments, not to be mean or anything, but not to be hurtful. But it's lying in a way. Or sometimes, as an example,

let's say you're in a store and something's mismarked on the price and go, wow, obviously they made a mistake. Well, but I want that. Well, so you go check it out at the price that it's at. And part of the point is most of us like to create an image though, that's quite complimentary to us. As an example, I mean, I'm sure you're familiar with the gazillion dictators that have existed in the world. Well, a dictator doesn't look in the mirror every morning and go, I'm a horrible person. I ordered these killings, right? And in fact, there's a book which you probably see that's called Mistakes Were Made, But Not By Me. And they interview these dictators, deposed dictators or former dictators.

And invariably, the person would say, I was only interested in the country. I'm a patriot. I did what had to be done. Yeah, either I did what had to be done or, yes, we had to change things, but I didn't realize these people did the things they did or I would never have approved X, Y, or Z. And the fact that I have all this wealth, it's because I earned it and I didn't steal anything. And of course, because how could you look in the mirror every day and say, I am a murderer. I am a killer. I have no kindness for anybody. I'm only interested in myself. So like all of us, we create a narrative that puts our behaviors and our actions in the best light. And very few of us have the disciplined

self-awareness to shine the light on the image we've created for ourselves because it's painful. This is where the value of sitting with a wise person, a trained psychologist, or somebody who will hold a mirror up to you. And it's not about them. It's about helping you be you and just really see you. The truth tellers and dragon, you know, and the fire breathers in my life that do that for me holds an invaluable position in my life. The process of introspection is real work. And when you're surrounded by people that value that for each other, there's an exponential return. And so I can't do it by myself. And I don't know any team or teammate that doesn't find that exceptional performance abilities or the exceptional way of living in a deep, rich way

that doesn't have those processes or people in place. The process of introspection, the process of mirror holding, to hold you up to what you actually say you want to be and actually how you're acting, that when that delta is noted, that dissonance is really uncomfortable. I don't know anyone that's a villain in their own story, to your point. Absolutely.

Yeah. So you're saying that, right, first and foremost, we've got this image that isn't necessarily clear, nor is it necessarily accurate. And so there's some internal work that needs to be done. And this isn't to say that on some level we need to have a slight difference because I think sometimes it would be hard to survive if the mirror was up to every second because then you're striving for perfection. And perfection is impossible. Yeah, that's a good nuance there. Yeah, and this is the problem with a lot of people. Either because of, unfortunately, parental expectation, they have a narrative that they have to be perfect. And in fact, I'll tell you a very sad story. I had a young lady who interned with me.

She was a straight-A student at Stanford, incredibly beautiful, super sweet, and everyone loved her. The problem was this was a created narrative to make others happy about her. The underbelly of this was that she was involved in all sorts of, you might call it kinky sexual things, and she was taking drugs. So she had this profound disparity between who everyone thought she was versus who she was. And I'm sure the sort of good person she was caused her so much pain because it was inauthentic that this led her to these other extreme behaviors. And sadly, she committed suicide. And it was extraordinarily painful for all the people who loved her because they did love her. And it wasn't because she was perfect in any way.

She was just in any way. She was just a nice person. But the baggage she carried from this feeling that she had to make everyone happy was just overwhelming for her. we all carry is, it's something that is not, we don't know, we're not equipped properly to deal with it in the Western world. We're propped up in a different value proposition than the authenticity of what's really happening. And thank you for sharing that. I lost an uncle. It was my favorite uncle to suicide. And his burden was too big and he couldn't figure it out. So those are the extreme examples. And we all have something we're carrying. I'm in awe of the weight of the baggage that people do carry and how well that they are trying to figure out how to be okay.

And when somebody is like, look, I just dropped my, my bags and my, my dirty laundry's all over the place. I'm a mess. I'm in awe of that too. Cause that's like, Hey, I'm not trying to pretend. And so I think if you could speak to the person who sees themselves in the intern that you just described, what would you say to them? Well, it's something I've tried to practice, but I'm certainly not perfect. And in fact, it goes back to two Japanese aesthetics,

which I'm sure you're familiar with. One is Kintsugi, and the other is Wabi Sabi. These are brilliant, brilliant philosophies. Please open them up. Yeah, so Kintsugi, of course, relates, I should say of course. I didn't learn this in fifth grade or 10th grade or college or med school, but I have learned it. And it's this concept that, or reality that in the 15th century in Japan, pottery was very valuable and it would break and it would typically be

repaired with the goal of not showing that it had been broken. And over time, though, this aesthetic appeared, and it resulted in an acceptance of the brokenness of the piece, and that in and of itself had value. So they started repairing the pottery with golden glue. Yeah, it's so cool. Yeah. And so the idea is that all of us are broken in some way, but we pulled it together. We've been repaired, but we should not be ashamed that we were broken at some point or multiple times, because this is the nature of the human condition. And so when you accept that you're not perfect, you cannot be

perfect, or wabi-sabi, the nature of impermanence. Wait, wait, before we go to wabi-sabi, we use the Kintsugi process without calling it that in elite sport. When we say, hey, we're going to go through this process where we're all going to share our scars with each other. And we purposely do that. We'll break into small groups. And this is, imagine a football team, 63 athletes, and you're breaking up. And these are alpha competitors who have a bravado of being tough. And they are in so many ways. And then you break up into a small group of, let's say, six or nine folks. Smaller is better. And when you have an elder in that small room that talks about their scars, it creates air cover for others to say,

yeah, me too. Mine's a little different though. And then they do. And then someone else goes, you know, the funny one will say, those are not my scars. I'm glad I don't have yours. You know, right? Like, I don't want to trade mine for yours now, but I'm going to share mine. And then there's this idea that from sharing of our scars, we can learn from each other. And then it does another thing. It bonds us at a richer way so that when somebody really needs our help, that we know the deeper part of them as well. Well, it creates this concept of psychological safety and that it's okay to be authentic. You know, it's funny, I give a lot of talks and there's this notion, I think, especially among men, that if you show your feelings, if you cry,

right, that somehow you're weaker. Now... Hold on, hold on. On that point, 90 seconds ago, when you were talking about your intern, I felt the emotions that you were feeling. And you didn't let them flood you. You were managing your emotions. I don't know if... I don't always do that, believe me. Yeah. So I was curious why you were containing your emotions in this conversation. Well, because I can cry really easy. Like my wife says, I cry over Lassie movies. But what I was going to share with you, though, is I get on stage and speak to hundreds or thousands of people. And I have no problem telling a story that's personally meaningful, like with my parents or growing up or whatever.

And oftentimes, I will get emotional. My voice will crack. I'll shed a tear. And as you pointed out with the example with these athletes, the very nature of doing that gives the other people in the audience the permission to feel those feelings without holding back. But what's interesting is after one of these talks, a woman comes up to me and she says, I felt so sorry for you. And I said, why? And she says, well, all these people were looking at you and it was clear that you became emotional and you must have been so embarrassed. Now, the rest of the story is she goes on and she says, you know, I'm a psychotherapist and a hypnotist. And if you come to me for three sessions, I'll get rid of that.

What is wrong with you? Because, you know, on some level, frankly, the superpower is to be able to stand up in front of people, be your authentic self, show your emotions, and people appreciate that. I agree. And there's an interesting line to navigate in a public way that's different than a private way. If you fall to a thousand pieces and can't access your thoughts while on stage, that's like crossing the line, right? Like you've gone, I have, or you have gone too far that we're no longer delivering something or giving something to somebody. In a private room or a small room, when you fall into a thousand pieces and you can't get your words out, like that's totally different. And so again, I agree with

you with what she was saying, but there is this interesting line with public and private and having the ability to get right to the edges, let all of the emotions do their thing and still maintain a posture of dignity and strength and wisdom is rad. Well, and I think that is the reality of being able to hold it that way. Yes. You're not losing it, but you're giving to people, frankly, what people so desperately need, which is being authentic and showing them that it's okay to be authentic. You know, you'll appreciate this. I didn't know we were going to talk about this.

Obviously, we're... Yeah, no, this is cool. This is, so the metacognition, go back to that point you made earlier, is a meta moment for me is that there's two men that have been doing this for a long time and are pointing to the value of being deeply connected to emotions and not undoing, but working with the scars, working with the early traumas that were passed on from our parents, having a process to open up the possibilities of who you can become. And that really is the power of this internal work. We're both agreeing. And I can, just a meta of us talking about, I don't know if you see yourself as an elder or if you see yourself as part of the wisdom council of the world, or you see yourself, I kind

of see myself like I'm still, you know, hucking something out of my trunk, trying to sell it as a 17-year-old. Like I've got both kind of parts of me together. Well, that's interesting because, you know, I still think of that 12-year-old. You do. Of course. Yeah. And it's interesting because I think no matter what age you are, you're still stuck between 25 and 35.

That's interesting. as if you will, or at least I don't generally, as sort of an elder. Because at least for me, I feel that I'm still learning. I certainly don't have the answers to everything. I have the answers to some things. I have my own experience. But I don't have the hubris to feel that I'm particularly that important. And I think one of the challenges, and I'm sure you probably experienced this, is there are people who see themselves as quote unquote elders or wise and who feel compelled to tell you how wise and how smart they are.

I mean, you get kicked off the council pretty quickly when you do that. Yes. The Dunning-Kruger effect. Exactly. Is alive and well. Yeah. So, I mean, I try to, I appreciate the knowledge I have. I feel comfortable with the knowledge I have, but I'm not lost, hopefully, in thinking that I'm either special or have all the answers. And I think sort of being grounded in that reality is important. As you know, I mean, there's a subset of people whose egos get so involved in their self-import.

And then they start having people around them who constantly agree with them. And I think this is one of the most detrimental aspects of being in this position of having some sort of authority and power. So I always try to see myself, and this may sound strange, as a frail, fragile human being who's trying to understand themselves in the world and who hopefully can offer people who need that knowledge, that information and help them. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentus. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday, what you put in your body matters. And that's why I trust Momentus. From the moment I sat down with Jeff Byers, their co-founder and CEO, I could tell this

was not your average supplement company. And I was immediately drawn to their mission, helping people achieve performance for life. And to do that, they developed what they call the Momentus Standard. Every product is formulated with top experts and every batch is third-party tested, NSF certified for sport or informed sport. So you know exactly what you're getting. Personally, I'm anchored by what they call the Momentus 3. Protein, creatine, and omega-3. And together, these foundational nutrients support muscle recovery, brain function, and long-term energy.

They're part of my daily routine. And if you're ready to fuel your brain and body with the best, Momentous has a great new offer just for our community right here. Use the code FindingMastery for 35% off your first subscription order at LiveMomentous.com. Again, that's L-I-V-E Momentous, M-O-M-E-N-T-O-U-S, LiveMomentous.com, and use the code FindingMastery for 35% off your first subscription order. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Felix Grey. I spend a lot of time thinking about how we can create the conditions for high performance.

How do we protect our ability to focus, to recover, to be present? And one of the biggest challenges we face today is our sheer amount of screen time. It messes with our sleep, our clarity, even our mood. And that's why I've been using Felix Grey glasses. What I appreciate most about Felix Grey is that they're just not another wellness product. They're rooted in real science. Developed alongside leading researchers and ophthalmologists, they've demonstrated these types of glasses boost melatonin, help you asleep faster and hit deeper stages of rest when i'm on the road and bouncing around between time zones

slipping on my felix grays in the evening it's a simple way to cue my body just to wind down and when i'm locked into deep work they also help me stay focused for longer without digital fatigue creeping in plus they look great clear, no funky color distortion. Just good design, great science. And if you're ready to feel the difference for yourself, Felix Gray is offering all Finding Mastery listeners 20% off. Just head to FelixGray.com and use the code FINDINGMASTERY20 at checkout.

Again, that's Felix Gray. You spell it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com and use the code FindingMastery20 at FelixGray.com for 20% off. So that's how you're creating space in a relationship for another person to be big, right? Like if you can hold that posture, you're amplifying space for another person to step into it. And yeah, that's really cool. Well, I think that's our job. You know, it's interesting. And I'm sure you've met people like this. They cannot help talking about themselves and talking about how important they are. There was actually a very famous psychologist who worked with emotions. I did an event at Stanford with him. And, you know, world famous name, but everything was,

I did this, I did that. Every time I mentioned someone else, he'd go, no, no, they didn't really contribute. And you're sitting there going, what is wrong? Dude, you're 81, right? And the thing is, our job is to elevate others, to acknowledge the contribution of others, to make them feel inspired, to make them feel that they have a contribution or the potential to contribute that will help others. That's what we're here for. Look, I don't need any more accolades. I've done enough. So much so that I think Jon Hamm from Admin is wanting to do a movie about your life, right?

Indeed. Yeah. So like, yeah, you've had a, we haven't even got to your life. We're here on some meta insights about like how to live well with other people. And the thing that I wanted to also point in this meta awareness of what's happening in this moment is that you are able to live with emotions inside of you and not apologize for them. This is something that it's a small little thing. When somebody is in a private setting and I'm afforded space to work with them,

and let's say there's tears are flooding and there's lots going on and they say, I'm so sorry, as they're wiping their tears away. I look for the right moment to say, I hear you, and this is rad. I'm not sure what you're sorry for. I'm not sure what you're embarrassed about in this moment. This is the work. And so maybe somebody can hear that. The listener can hear it and be like, next time you're crying, if you can just hold your posture and your dignity and let the tears roll and take the pauses where you need to be able to find the contour of the right words, let your body speak. You don't always have to have the right words. And then never apologize. Well, you shouldn't have to apologize. Look,

we're human beings. None of us are perfect. We make mistakes. We have feelings. Do you remember your last mistake? Just driving over, I kind of find a fucking parking place and I was irritated. So I shouldn't have been irritated, right? Probably at the same time, I was having a conversation with my wife. We're in some construction. And the contractor was – the contractor and Marina, the gal that's kind of pulling it all together and my wife were standing there. And I said, hey, I think we should like make a shift on this type of material.

My wife looked at me and I said, oh, okay. Right? So it was like, I want to be more like a panda. I don't know if I've shared this with you, but in my life, I need more play. I'm so intense and so serious. I need more play. And so as often as I can take kind of the piss out of it and laugh a little bit more,

pandas don't have any predators. So just roll around in the fun of it. I'm better. And so, yeah. Well, no, I think that's right. And again, not take yourself too seriously. I mean, look, I do neurosurgery. I can't cry while I'm operating on somebody's brain.

You know, I have to. And it's not a matter of, quote, unquote, turning it on and off in an inauthentic way, but there are places where it's okay to deeply share your emotions. That's right. And there are places where you, it is not possible if you're going to do your job. And, you know, being in the middle of somebody's brain, you're not crying, right? That's right. Yeah. Although, and this was in the first book, I mentioned this incident where there was an opera singer who became a friend of mine.

And she came to me because she had been having headaches and got a MRI scan that showed an aneurysm or an outpouching of a blood vessel adjacent to her speech area. And we had several long conversations. To be bluntly honest, I was hoping she would see somebody else because she'd become a friend of mine. But at the end of the day, she asked me to operate on her. And so I opened her head up, if you will, and I was spreading the frontal and the temporal lobes. And this aneurysm was there and it had enlarged so much that you could literally see the blood swirling. Oh, wow. So it was going to rupture very soon. Meaning the membrane was so thin.

Yes. It was stressed so much that you could see the heartbeat in it. Yes, you could see the blood swirling in it. And so I asked for an aneurysm clip. And as I started approaching it after I dissected the neck out, I started thinking of her. Oh, my God. And my head started shaking. And this is the danger, right?

Because this was no longer a technical exercise. This is a person whose life is in my hands who's a friend of mine. And so I had to sit back and literally go into a meditative state to get back into the mode of it being a technical exercise. And fortunately, she did fine and it all worked out well. But there is the danger. There is the danger. And let's just talk about meditation for a minute. How long have you been meditating? Well, since I was 12. And what is your practice? Well, you know, it's interesting you say that. Have you ever seen these people who'll come out up to you and they'll go, you know, I want you to know I've been in three Vipassana silent retreats in the last three months.

And you're like, fuck you. It's like what the righteousness. Yeah. It's like if you actually feel a need to tell me that, you did not learn a fucking thing. Right? And so I learned my practice actually with Ruth. And in many ways, it's a mindfulness practice. Ruth from the magic shop.

Yeah. Yeah. At 12, because she would give me exercises. Let's share the story. You walk into a magic shop and? Yeah. So oftentimes, and to give the audience a little bit more back, my background, which they may not know, is I grew up in poverty. My father was an alcoholic. My mother had had a stroke when I was a child, was partially paralyzed, had a seizure disorder. Unfortunately, he was chronically depressed, attempted suicide multiple times. We were on public assistance essentially my entire childhood, evicted from various residences. Obviously, this is not the background that is generally associated with somebody who has quote-unquote success in the Western world. What happened to me though was that frequently I would leave my house if there was arguments or trauma or whatever going on. And one time I ended up at a strip mall and in the strip mall was a magic shop. And I used to do magic as a kid and I used to have a plastic thumb and which is a technique for hiding things or revealing things.

Long story short, though, I went into the magic shop, and the lady who was there, who was probably in her mid-50s, she greeted me. And now it turned out she was the owner's mother. She knew nothing about magic. But we began a conversation, and she was one of these people, I'm sure you've met them, who their very presence is calming. They have a kindness about them. You don't feel you're being judged. You know, here I was 12. I was insecure. I was ashamed. But she made me feel like we were equals, that she was my friend. There's the emotions.

Fuck you. What a gift that four decades, five decades, however old you are later, you can still feel the warmth. Of course, because it was profound. So after we talked for about 20 minutes, she said to me, Wait, hold on. How do you keep that warmth? It's like sometimes when I tell stories, I get a little bit more removed from it

and a little bit more numb to the warmth. How do you do this? Well, who knows how we do anything, frankly. But yeah, for me, these are important and they're right under the surface because they changed my life. They had a profound influence. From what to what? Well, from actually, what would I have been if I hadn't met her? Now, we can never answer that question. So that's, what's under the surface. Like each time you think of that moment, it's being seen

and it's also everything it represents of the success you've had in life. Absolutely. And so I'm profoundly grateful. Um, so after we were talking for about 15 or 20 minutes, she said to me, she said, I really like you. I'm here for another six weeks. If you show up every day, I think I can show you something that could really help you. Now, I had no clue what that meant exactly. And certainly, I was not self-aware or insightful. But what I did know was, one, she was nice. Two, I had absolutely nothing else to do. And three, she was feeding me cookies. So those were the fundamental decision points here. But I did show up. And- These are the people I tell my son to be careful of.

Oh, women in a magic shop? You know, like, I wasn't going with the woman in the magic shop, but like, the cynic in me is like, this also could go the other way. It could, absolutely. And it didn't? No. Yeah. Would you, do you have kids? I have three.

Do they, do they have mentors in this way in their life? Well, they're parents. Yeah. And I think that's really an important aspect because, look. You channel that part of Ruth? Oh, yeah. Yeah, of course. That's really cool.

Because who we become as people are, frankly, most associated with your parents or your caregivers or those who love you. Plus, my wife's parents live with us. Now? Or did it now? Now they do. Yeah, I think it's what your parents install, create, imprint, whatever fancy word you might say. And plus it's what you do with that, right? There's an agency piece to this

that is part of the rite of passage for adulthood. It's like, well, what are you going to do with it? What are you going to do with your raw clay? Yeah. And the thing is, I mean, my children have been fortunate in that, and we haven't talked about, but I've been blessed to become friends with the Dalai Lama. Come on. Come on. Right back at you, yourself. And from that, I ended up becoming the chairman of the Dalai Lama Foundation. And then from that, I became friends with Desmond Tutu, Thich Nhat Hanh, Amma, Sri Sri Ravi Shankar, Sadguru, Eckhart Tolle, Byron Katie, Warner Earhart, and Radhanath Swami, Chenanand, Sri M, Daji. Anyway, you get the point. And your proceeds from your lab are directly linked to a nonprofit arm, I think.

Do I have that linking correctly? Well, our center is a nonprofit because it's within Stanford. Yeah. But that link is somewhere to the wisdoms, supporting the wisdoms that you just shared. Not directly. Okay. But that being said, I have done a lot with these individuals. Yeah. And that's why, you know, it's not just meeting somebody and get a photo op. It's actually becoming friends, having relationships. But the point I was making is my children have met many of these people. And so, you know, for me, and I'm sure you probably experienced this with someone like that, is you have this

sense of unconditional love, acceptance, and non-judgment, generosity. And when your children see you or they themselves are in that situation, it's usually profound and seldom do people get an opportunity to connect with somebody and see how you connect with them. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day.

And Cozy Earth has become a new part of that. Their bedding, it's incredibly soft, like next level soft. And what surprised me the most is how much it actually helps regulate temperature. I tend to run warm at night and these sheets have helped me sleep cooler and more consistently, which has made a meaningful difference in how I show up the next day for myself, my family, and our team here at Finding Mastery. It's become part of my nightly routine. Throw on their lounge pants or pajamas, crawl into bed under their sheets, and my nervous system starts to settle. They also offer a 100-night sleep trial and a 10-year warranty on all of their bedding, which tells me, tells you, that they believe in the long-term value of what they're creating. If you're ready to upgrade your rest and turn your bed into a better recovery zone,

use the code FINDINGMASTERY for 40% off at CozyEarth.com. That's a great discount for our community. Again, the code is FINDINGMASTERY for 40% off at CozyEarth.com. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Caldera Lab. I believe that the way we do small things in life is how we do all things. And for me, that includes how I take care of my body. I've been using Caldera Lab for years now. And what keeps me coming back, it's really simple. Their products are simple

and they reflect the kind of intentional living that I want to build into every part of my day. And they make my morning routine really easy. They've got some great new products I think you'll be interested in. A shampoo, conditioner, and a hair serum. With Caldera Lab, it's not about adding more. It's about choosing better. And when your day demands clarity and energy and presence, the way you prepare for it matters. If you're looking for high-quality personal care products that elevate your routine without complicating it,

I'd love for you to check them out. Head to calderalab.com slash findingmastery and use the code findingmastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's Caldera Lab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash FINDINGMASTERY. If we come all the way back to two things, I want to go back to your practice of mindfulness. I want to go back to the state that you found yourself in from that surgical moment where you're overwhelmed with emotions and you took a moment to gather yourself or to go within. And then how you came out of that.

And the third thing I want to do is I want to go back to Ruth, okay? And I want to understand from that moment what path it set you on. So where would you like to start of those? Well, let's start with the first question, which was? Go all the way back to your practice of mindfulness. So I initially did probably, I won't say traditional, but a practice that's common in mindfulness, relaxing the body, focus. And she also added an understanding of self-compassion because, especially from my background, I was very hypercritical because I had a lot of shame and embarrassment and I would beat myself up. You

know, I don't deserve this. That's why I'm in this position. And sadly, this is a common narrative that children create for themselves that, oh, they're responsible for the divorce. They're responsible for their parents drinking. People like me, it doesn't work out for people like me from places like that I came from. Exactly. So she helped me change that narrative to one of self-affirmation and a recognition that these statements were not true. They were created. So how did she know your

statements? She asked you, what would she say? Like, what do you say to yourself about? Exactly. Yeah. I mean, pretty much. Yeah. And then as a 12 year old, you would say, I don't know. No, maybe I was a little more self-aware than I thought. No, I would say, I don't think I can do this. Or, you know, as you said, people from my background don't do this. And, you know, it's really sad that you create these narratives. And so she made me understand it wasn't truth and gave me the ability to give myself positive affirmations. But it did more than that because what it also did was to make me understand that I was suffering. But oftentimes when we're hypercritical of ourselves, we're really hypercritical also of others. It's the same lenses. Yeah. So she changed the lens through which I saw the world. So no longer did I have anger and hostility towards my parents, as an example. I recognized that they were doing the best they could. They did not have

the tools to help themselves. I'll tell you a real quick story. So I gave that talk to the medical students. So about three months later, I get an email from a woman and she says, I am the spiritual director at the largest homeless shelter in the United States. I'm a person of faith and I resigned. So she goes on and she says, on that day, someone shared with me that talk you gave. And that gave me the strength to return to work. So then a few months later, she sends me another email and it says, you know, I've shared your story with a lot of people. And I shared it with my best friend. And she has a daughter named Jenny. And I was telling Jenny about this.

And Jenny makes beads. And on her own, Jenny made a set of 10 wooden beads, each representing a letter. And she added a golden bead to represent the golden rule. Would you mind if we sold these beads for the homeless shelter and a peace center that I run? Well, I mean, what could I say? So I said, of course. So then a few months later, she sends me another email and she says, you know, this is so moving. I can't help myself. I did a video with Jennifer or Jenny, and it shows actually this girl's hands on a golden cloth stringing these beads. And this woman, she is actually narrating it and narrates the story.

And she said, do you mind if I post this? So I said, sure. And if your listeners want to, you can find it under Compassion Beach, San Antonio on YouTube. So anyway, what happens is her and I become friends. So I actually end up flying to San Antonio to tour the homeless shelter. And I ended up giving a sermon in the church, which is crazy, right?

So then what happens is, you know, and this is very profound for me. I was hosting the Dalai Lama at Stanford. And I said to her, I said, listen, because she has two heroes. One is the Dalai Lama and one is Desmond Tutu. And I said, and she shares a birthday with Desmond Tutu. So I said to her, I said, listen, why don't you come to Stanford and I want you to meet the Dalai Lama.

And she sends me this note. She says, you know, I'd love to, but really I have very limited resources. I'm not able to do that. So I said to her, I said, listen, I'm hiring you as a consultant. Yes, yes. So I hired her, flew her out, and I said, listen, when you come, bring a bunch of these beads, compassion beads we call them, and we'll have his holiness bless them.

So, in fact, we did. And she got to meet the Dalai Lama, and we shared the beads. And I still have a bunch of them. My wrist is like a medium size, if you will. Actually, they're not that big. Yeah. Let's see's see in fact they barely fit on your finger as you're digging into your pocket so here are some beads for you oh my no way yes so those are blessed by the dalai lama oh gorgeous Oh, gorgeous. So anyway. Wait, hold on, hold on. Thank you. You're welcome.

Yeah. There's so much of what you just shared. So the whole story, thank you. And the gift is incredibly meaningful. Thank you so much. You're welcome. But the rest of the story is, so I was at Tutu's 80th birthday party. So I was invited to his 85th birthday party, and I was in Oslo. I think my invite got confused. Exactly. So what happened is— Wait, hold on. So are we getting back to manifestation here in some way?

Because how have you done this jim how have you lived the life that you've lived one is i have no attachment or expectation you don't and and two elevated spiritual beings and people in general understand or resonate with someone who isn't out for something. Yeah. You know, I have no need to chase after spiritual and religious leaders. And don't get me wrong, it's not that I don't appreciate them, but it's just not where my head is at. But it doesn't mean I don't appreciate being with them. Did you now I have to finish my damn story before I keep doing this. Okay. But I, okay. I need to say it out loud. So we don't forget is that, was that a true statement when you lost $80 million? Was that absolutely well, 78 million, but yes. Okay. So it's like i read somewhere like rags to riches to rags to riches i

don't really know kind of what the arc there is but um so let's just let's come back i want to hear your story but i want to come back to like did this did this whole thing stay true when you were facing down a huge loss so let me finish my damn story and I'll answer your goddamn question. Let's go. Okay. Jesus. Now that I got my beads. The purpose of it was for you to have some metacognition and get your shit together. Awesome. Anyway, so what happened is I was in Oslo lecturing and Tutu's 85th birthday is coming up. So I call her up and I say, listen, you need to do me a favor. I need you to go represent me at Tutu's birthday. So I paid her

way to Cape Town. So again, obviously it cost me some money, but the impact for her was incredibly profound. And this isn't necessarily to give accolades to me, but the reality is all of us have the ability to change someone's life. Now, it could be by me doing these acts for this woman, but fundamentally it doesn't matter about pain to go for her to go somewhere. It matters, did you appreciate their struggles? Do you know who they are? Can you do something that can have a profound effect on their lives? And most of us don't appreciate the power each of us has to do that.

That doesn't mean you have to be wealthy. All it means is that you have an open heart because sometimes people just need a hug. They need a smile. They need you to acknowledge them. And so I think sometimes people forget that. Anyway, back to the question you feel so intent on forcing me to ask. Go ahead. See, I've got you now. Now I'm not sure it's worth it. You know, I've got this whole – no. So the two things I want to come back to is like I think we need to set up clearly that you are really on a amazing financial run

at one point in your life and look as a neurosurgeon you make a good living as long as you don't spend more than you make you're making a lot of money that can be a problem that can be a problem yeah never assume right um but you are on this exponential growth from a financial arc and then something happened. You were potentially buying an island, right? Yeah, New Zealand. How about that? You had all of these wonderful material opportunities.

And then there was a stock market crash. And you got caught up in it. Well, it was a dot-com crash. But yeah, fundamentally the same thing. Yeah, absolutely. So I had bet big on different startups and things. And within six weeks, at least on paper, I lost everything. Now, the key was that at that time, if you had stock in a company, even though you

could not, because there's a holding period if you're an insider or whatever. You had to hold it for six months before you could sell it. But if you were in that position, actually the banks would give you a loan of up to 25% of the value of that stock. So I had borrowed $15 million, thus my penthouse, thus in San Francisco, my villa in Florence, buying the island and having a nice house overlooking the bay in Newport Beach and having a Ferrari and a Porsche and a Range Rover and a Mercedes and a BMW. Yeah. And so when that happened, you know, in six weeks, I watched the valley go to essentially nothing. I was six, or excuse me was $3 million in the hole. And, of course, the bank wanted their money.

So I had to deal with this. And, of course, this required me to deal with my attorneys who had set up all these charitable trusts and stuff like that. And so I ended up selling almost everything because I had to pay the loan back. And also the interesting thing was that I spoke to my lawyers and it turned out that they had actually not filed paperwork that should have been done actually even a few years before to set up this charitable trust. Oh, boy.

So it turned out that there was stock that I had in a company that hadn't gone public, which I put into this trust. And they said, you have no obligation to do that. You have no obligation to do what? To give that stock away. I could keep it. Oh. Oh. Yeah.

So here I am, $3 million in the hole. I'm selling everything. And I went through this period of reflection because I wanted to understand what went wrong. And what happened was, as I reflected on this, one, I really wasn't honoring. And remember, this was years and years after I'd been with Ruth. I really hadn't honored what I told Ruth I would do. But the other problem was that all the things I had wished for were about me, right? And in some ways, this is a narrative between fear and love. And I'll explain that in a second because I have no question you'll ask that. Of course that's coming. Of course that's common. So what I did not appreciate when I was younger, and not surprisingly, I had no self-awareness. I was poor.

So when Ruth asked me to make a list of things I wanted, it was from that lens. So what did I want? I wanted to be a doctor. And don't get me wrong, it wasn't about not caring for people because I cared very much. But it was also about I wanted people to see me as important. Yeah, of course. I wanted a mansion. I wanted a Porsche.

I'd seen this silver Porsche Targa drive by me one day and I go, I want that. I had a friend of mine who was from a fairly wealthy family and I would be over at his house and his dad had this big gold Rolex. I go, I want a gold Rolex, right? And so I made this list of 10 things. And one was an island, actually. And so ultimately I got every one of those. The problem was, though, that I was looking through the wrong lens. I was looking through the things of I want, I want, I want, but it was out of fear and insecurity and shame.

I wanted external affirmation that said I was okay. And in some ways, this is a problem in our modern society, which we can talk about, but that narrative is out of fear, right? I'm insecure. I'm afraid people are going to judge me. I need them to look at me and say, you're successful. Unfortunately, this is actually the narrative of hedonic happiness, right? It's pleasure, avoiding pain, but it's about things. I want this. I need this. I have to have this. That fundamentally is a fear narrative. Conversely, a love narrative is who am I really and who are we meant to be?

The engagement of our sympathetic nervous system or this fear mode, that's an ancient part of us that's been with us, but it was never meant to be turned on all the time. An event was supposed to happen that threatened you. You responded by the release of different neurotransmitters, which made you get up and run or whatever. And then you came back to normal. But you live primarily with engagement of your parasympathetic nervous system. Rest and digest. Yes. But this is the love narrative.

You're generous. You're open. Right? You see yourself as part of a family. You want to help others. because that's how we evolve, right? Our species doesn't run off into the jungle or the forest. We have a genetic imperative to care. If we don't care for our offspring, they die. And it's an immense requirement in terms of resources and time. And why do we do it? Because we're rewarded when we care. We release

oxytocin and other neurotransmitters that stimulate our pleasure and reward centers. We feel good when we care. That's how we're supposed to live. So when I say I recognize that, and then after this period of reflection, I realized that was my purpose, right? So then I switched. How can I be of service? How can I switched. How can I be of service? How can I care? How can I benefit others?

And it's not to negate the materialistic side of things. It's to understand, though, that the most important thing that makes us human, that allows us to flourish, that makes our physiology, whether it's our brain physiology or peripheral physiology, work its best best is when we care. And there's every bit of evidence. And whether you look at Dan Buettner's work with the blue zones or you look at Robert Waldinger and the 85-year-old Harvard, I guess it's called the Longevity and Happiness Study, although it's actually the Adult Development Study. But regardless, there's every bit of evidence that when you care,

you are happier, you live longer. And so that is what I finally understood. So once I understood what my real purpose was, which is to have purpose and meaning, which translates into eudaimonic happiness, then I switched. So when the attorney said to me, you can keep all of that money, I ended up giving it all away. Wow. So it was 29 million. It wasn't 30. So what did that do? Who'd you give it to? Well, I set up health clinics around the world, blood banks. I created a program for adolescents affected by AIDS, H-I-D, because I had my older brother had AIDS. I set up programs

for the disabled. I endowed chairs at different universities, Stanford, my medical school, Tulane. I set up scholarships, research projects. Very cool. Yeah. And so the narrative of rags to riches, which you alluded to, initially that was entirely true. I had nothing and I had great success, but I wasn't happy. Finding Mastery is brought to you by iRestore. When it comes to my health, I try to approach things with a proactive mindset. It's not about avoiding poor health. This is about creating the conditions for growth.

Now, hair health is one of those areas that often gets overlooked until your hair starts to change. That's when people pay attention. Now, that's why I've been loving iRestore Elite. It's a hands-free red light therapy device that helps stimulate dormant hair follicles, helps to support regrowth. It's a clinical grade device. It's simple to use. It fits right into the rhythm of my day, whether I'm meditating, reading, prepping for one of our clients here at Finding Mastery. It's really simple.

Now, red light therapy has some pretty amazing research behind it when it comes to cellular energy, tissue repair, inflammation control, as well as healing. iRestore is using those same principles to help your hair thrive. I really like this product. I used it last night. I use it on a regular basis. They also offer a 12-month money-back guarantee. So if you don't see results, they'll refund you. No questions. I love that. They have real confidence in their product. And because you're a member of the Finding Mastery community right now, they're offering our listeners huge savings on the iRestore Elite. When you use the code FindingMastery at iRestore.com slash Finding Mastery. Again, that code is FindingMastery at iRestore.com slash findingmastery for exclusive savings. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Lisa.

Sleep is one of the foundational pillars of high performance. There's no arguing that. And when we have great sleep consistently and deeply, we give ourselves the best chance to operate at our best physically, cognitively, emotionally. Sleep affects it all. That's why I care about the environment that I sleep in so much. And of course, a great mattress, it matters. One of our teammates here at Finding Mastery has been sleeping on a Lisa mattress for over a year now, and it's made a noticeable difference. They specifically chose one from their chill collection

because they sleep hot, something I know many of us can relate to, myself included. What are they reporting back? Fewer wake-ups, deeper rest, and feeling more recovered when they jump into their work here at Finding Mastery. Lisa has several models to choose from. So whether you're a side sleeper, a stomach sleeper, or somewhere in between, there's a fit designed specifically for you. And what I appreciate most is their purpose. They've donated over 41,000 mattresses to people in need. I love that. So right now you can get 25% off all mattresses at lisa.com plus an extra $50 off when you use the code finding mastery at checkout. That's lisa l e e s a.com. The promo code is finding mastery for 25% off and then plus an extra $50 on

us because quality sleep is just too important to leave to chance. It was a hollow. I would climb a mountain and be standing there alone and people saying how great I was, but it didn't make me fugue. Yeah. I, I, that you're, you're more connected. Um, Yeah. You're more connected in that narrative. Connected is not the right word. The listener, I think, sees themselves in that narrative more than you might imagine.

Yeah. And I think it's true of so many people. They don't understand what they need. They understand what they want. This is where this conversation started. Exactly. And this is unfortunately the Western capitalist narrative, unfortunately. But as I was saying, I literally went from rags to riches. But when I lost all that money, I did go from rags to riches but in a different way. I was still a neurosurgeon, so I still made 99.9. Yeah, right. You did well. Yeah. I was not going to starve. And I recognized that. But what ultimately happened was that I became extraordinarily rich, but I became rich with connections with some of the most profound spiritual and religious leaders in the world. And that's the real riches. That changed my life. It gave me a different worldview.

It made me appreciate these elevated spiritual beings, but it also made me see what our purpose is in this world. So Waldinger was on the podcast, and he was amazing. I don't know if you've had a chance to know him. I have a podcast, and he was on the podcast and he was amazing. I don't know if you've had a chance to know him. I have a podcast and he was on my podcast. He was amazing, wasn't he? Yes, very nice fellow. So when you say purpose, what is your purpose?

And can you answer, you know, what you think the grand purpose is for humans? But like first just start with you. Like what is your purpose? So I have no belief in a higher power. But that being said, as I mentioned in the book, the universe doesn't give a fuck about you. But at the end of the book, you probably also see that at the end of the day, I say the universe is within each of us. And so I certainly believe we are connected. We're interdependent. And our purpose is to be of service.

You don't need a god. You don't need a religion to believe that. And so that's where I start at. And, I mean, look, what makes me feel good is helping people way I can and understand that we can learn something from everybody and not to have arrogance about either what I know or how smart I am, but to understand that there are certain gifts that I have and that by sharing them, they can help people. And potentially that's for the good or the bad because as I've said, none of us are perfect. I make mistakes. I'm sure I will continue to make mistakes. But the other side of the coin is I accept myself for who I am. Hopefully, at least for most things, I can admit my mistakes or try to.

But the other important thing, which I think all of us should learn, is not to give a fuck what other people think about us if we have our own moral compass. I'm so aligned. So aligned. And I think part of the deep work is to get to the signal of the moral compass, the values and the first principles that you want to operate from. And sometimes religions can provide them and sometimes other books of wisdom can and sometimes inspired people or you never know. Maybe it's a lyric in a poem or a lyric in a song or a stanza in a poem that can also help. And so, James, what a fun conversation. You're full of fire. You've got stories for days and you've got rich insights.

And the book is full of very applied practices. And I want to thank you for sharing your wisdom and bringing your full self into this where you were porous with emotions the entire time. And so it's noted and appreciated. And I just want to say thank you for how you showed up as much as the stories and the insights that you shared. Well, listen, it's a pleasure being with you. And thank you for your questions,

even fucking interrupting me. But no, it's been a joy. I love the interruptions. It takes us down paths that I couldn't have planned for. And I hope you had fun with them. No, of course, Yeah, it was fun. And one more, one more, why not? Is that I wanted to get back to the state, your ideal performance state, that when you're overwhelmed with emotions with your friend that you're doing surgery with, you took a moment and paused and did something internal. What was the

state you were looking for to be ideal to be able to perform neurosurgery? Yeah, well, if you recall in my first book, it opens with an introductory chapter called Beautiful Things, which is about operating on a four-year-old who has a brain tumor. And unfortunately, the resident who was helping me tore a significant blood vessel and the kid almost died on the table. And the same thing that allowed me to not – because when things like that happen, of course, your immediate response is to become fearful. Because, you know, I mean having a kid bleeding to death in front of you and not being able to deal with it because you're emotional. And, you know, once your sympathetic nervous system kicks in, your body or your brain shuts down because it's looking for a quick solution, but you need

all the information and data points you can to figure out how to solve the problem. And so being able to calm the mind and sit with that and, if you will, push the fear away and then rely. And in some ways, this is the nature of intuition. You've done something so much, you have a sense about it, and you let yourself go and be there for that. And that was the state that I got into. Very cool. Yeah. When you know the bullseye or it's a felt sense or a feeling that you're looking for, I think it's our responsibility to be able to know a set of practices to help us get closer to that, if not right on the bullseye as often as we possibly can. And there is, there's a fluidness to this, but when you're operating in

your arena or operating in any arena, there's a, there's a, there's a tuning fork that, you know, you uniquely know what your state is to meet the demands of the moment. Cause the moments, they change, of course. Each moment is uniquely different. But they don't change that much in the operating room. And so I think it's a sophisticated understanding when you look at an athlete to say, what do they do that I don't see on how they ready themselves and how they prepare themselves to find or be at their ideal competitive mindset. That's what I was looking for, for what you said. And thank you for sharing your process. Yeah. Well, I think it's how to get to the flow state, right? And it doesn't happen overnight. It's mastery, right? As you know, how do you prepare yourself and what does it have to do with? It has to do with intention and repetition, which is manifestation.

Full circle. There you go. Do you practice intentions daily? Sure. Yeah. And how do you do intention work? Well, again, I don't necessarily write it down because again, once you practice something over and over again, it's a process of just centering yourself and putting that in your mind's eye. And of course it sits there. And again, manifestation doesn't work on your or my schedule, right? And this is where I think people get confused because they go, I want this and it's supposed to be there tomorrow like your red Corvette, right? Yeah, right. It has to do with embedding that intention through value tagging to activate these brain networks. But on a subconscious level, once you've done that, that intention is always sitting there.

And this is the nature of coincidences or synchronicities. Because when you're awake and this is embedded, your subconscious is always looking for opportunities. And I've been fortunate, and probably because at this point it becomes second nature to have that mindset and be attuned to that. And, you know, it happens frequently. But again, there are a couple of caveats to that. One is it doesn't happen on your time frame. Two is it may not happen exactly the way you wished. Three is that sometimes your subconscious has knowledge which prevents something from happening because it's neither the time nor something that you should have.

Based on early programming. Yes. And the other is that you cannot have attachment to outcome. It's there. It's an intention, it's a goal, it's a desire. But when you're too focused on the outcome, that actually can have negative consequences. I think it actually works directly against what you're trying to do because it's not in your control. It's not something that is, in my mind, very valuable on where attention needs to be placed to be masterful. When I do like a mental imagery session or something with people, I'll do, let's call it 85-15 for just shorthand. 85% of the time is seeing yourself being amazing. It's a movie that you're playing in your mind as lifelike as possible. 15% of the time is putting yourself in complicated, compromised, hard, difficult

situations and working yourself through that. So it's not just all this glory moments of being great. It's also seeing yourself behind, if you will, or in a compromised situation. And then the last little finishing touches and it's like seconds to the minutes that i'm talking about is why not for a few moments see yourself top of the podium why not but that that is almost like a throwaway for me it's more about um laying the familiarity and the myelinization or the neural grooving of mastery. And if you have, why not just at the very end, just see yourself kind of top of podium type of thing. So that's how I structure it. Well, I think that's good. I think that's important. The important other aspect, I think, is to appreciate the cost of that.

The cost of which part? Of being at the podium. Because if you've sacrificed everything to be at the podium, what was your purpose? And what I mean by that is if somebody has a goal that's so powerful, so deep that they're willing to sacrifice relationships, friendships. That's right. There's a dark side to goals. Yes. So there's nothing wrong with goals, nor is there anything wrong with material things.

The difference is, though, that at least for me, the material things, well, I'm appreciative or accomplishing goals. I'm appreciative. Those don't define who I am. And if it's all gone tomorrow, it's irrelevant in terms of my own happiness. And this is where I think people, especially in Western society, society get confused because they confuse these types of things with their identity. And when that becomes your identity, when you lose them, that's a horrible thing. Who am I without the red Corvette? Exactly. The force, the island, the plane, whatever it might be. Yeah.

And I think that's really an important differentiator. Now, again, I've had people say sometimes, I'll go, well, I just want to have that red Corvette and just see what it's like. Yeah, of course. Why not? Yeah, I could certainly appreciate that. There's one more thing I just want to ask you, which is, I wonder how you would upgrade this. There's this practice that I have that sits outside of my regular meditation practice. It's a morning mindset routine. It takes 60 seconds, maybe six minutes, like there's ranges here. And it's got four components.

And it was designed for very specific reasons. So the first, again, this could be 60 seconds, but there's four parts to it. And for the listener who's not clear with this, if you send an email to us, we'll send it to you. Or it's on our website, findingmastery.com slash morningmindset. Something like, I think that's it.

They'll find it. They'll find it, yeah. So there's a free kind of description there. But so the first is just one deep breath. So take control first. Before you check into all the noise of the world, send a signal to your brain that, hey, I'm doing this thing here. You know, like, I got you. Long exhale. Okay, if you need 10 of them, great. But just one is just the priming. That opens up a specific circuitry in the brain that is useful for the rest digest, the more present.

Then the second is at least one thought of gratitude. Now, if you want to do more, cool. But it's really about an embedded feeling of what you're grateful for. My eyes, my heart. Being with you. Thank you. Whatever it might be. Okay.

And then the next is one clear intention. So the intention is using my imagination to see how I want to be today. And if I can niche it down and narrow it down to see how I want to be with you today, then it's just a little bit more specific. So that becomes a bit of a target for me. That's quite thin sliced. It's narrowed, if you will. And the last is I take my sheets off, I swing my body over, and I just take a moment to be where my body is.

So it's a beat to be present, if you will. Now there's related but different circuitry that I'm interested in activating for those four things. Would you add anything to it? Would you pull something down because it doesn't seem relevant i can't imagine you would but tell me your your as a neurosurgeon neuroscientist your your take on this no i i think uh in many ways it sort of overlaps or relates to my own practice uh you know i think sitting at the side of your bed, at least for me, but you can lie down and do it, doing a breathing exercise, probably more than one, but regardless. Because again, the nature of that shifts you into your rest and digest or your parasympathetic mode,

which makes you look at the world through a different lens, right? And having gratitude is really important. Now, it's interesting. Having gratitude and intention is actually something I do at night. You do those at night. Right, because one is I'm trying to set my mood for the day by that morning practice. At night, I sit there and I reflect on what I'm grateful for for that day. Life is incredibly personal, and so is business. The more personal we can be, I think the better off we are. Well, thank you. And again, a joy being with you. Hopefully, we can have another conversation.

I love it. I would love it. And thank you for the very special, thoughtful gift as well. And where can people get the Compassion Beads? Yes. There is a website. And if you look up Compassion Beads, San Antonio, you'll find the website. I don't remember the exact- We'll provide the link. And the thing is, actually, I get no benefit from this whatsoever. This supports this peace center and this homeless shelter. That's right. I'm all about it. I'm all about it.

And we're going to send people to definitely get your new book, Mind Magic, The Neuroscience of Manifestation and How It Changes Everything. And, of course, your website. Those links will be in the, in the show notes. And again, thank you. Thank you. I appreciate it. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of finding mastery with us.

Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no cost way to support is to hit the subscribe community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no-cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're listening. Also, if you haven't already, please consider dropping us a review on Apple or Spotify. We are incredibly grateful for the support and feedback.

If you're looking for even more insights, we have a newsletter we send out every Wednesday. Punch over to findingmastery.com slash newsletter to sign up. The show wouldn't be possible without our sponsors. And we take our recommendations seriously. And the team is very thoughtful about making sure we love and endorse every product you hear on the show. If you want to check out any of our sponsor offers you heard about in this episode, you can find those deals at findingmastery.com slash sponsors.

And remember, no one does it alone. The door here at Finding Mastery is always open to those looking to explore the edges and the reaches of their potential so that they can help others do the same. So join our community, share your favorite episode with a friend and let us know how we can continue to show up for you. Lastly, as a quick reminder,

information in this podcast and from any material on the Finding Mastery website and social channels is for information purposes only. If you're looking for meaningful support, which we all need, one of the best things you can do is to talk to a licensed professional.

So seek assistance from your healthcare providers. Again, a sincere thank you for listening. Until next episode, be well, think well, keep exploring.