Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Dr. Daniel Chao, Halo Neuroscience Co-Founder

Episode Date: October 24, 2018

This week’s conversation is with Dr. Daniel Chao, co-founder of Halo Neuroscience.Dr. Chao’s whole life has been dedicated to understanding the brain and its function — specifically, how electrical stimulation can help the brain more rapidly improve performance, cognitive function, and overall happiness.As some of you are already probably aware, we recently partnered with Halo Neuroscience because I’m bullish on their technology, Halo Sport, which accelerates movement based learning through transcranial direct current stimulation (TDCS).I wanted to have an in-depth conversation with Daniel to learn more about how scientists are using brain stimulation to optimize neurological function and go deeper into what’s possible with this technology.I think this technology is right on the frontier, backed by about 15 years of research and currently used by the best athletes in the world – US Olympic teams, players in the NFL, MLB, NBA, PGA Tour, and more.In a previous Finding Mastery podcast (#045), psychologist Anders Ericsson argued that expert performers acquire their skill through deliberate practice.In deliberate practice, it's a full and deep, possibly nauseatingly deep focus, on whatever skill you are working on learning. This involves minimizing distractions and practicing just outside one's comfort zone.Well what if adding a layer of technology to deliberate practice could accelerate the rate of learning by up to 50%?That’s something we discuss in this conversation and Daniel believes we’re just scratching the surface of what’s possible.As someone who’s always been captivated by the power of the mind, this conversation was such a treat for me so I can’t wait for you to learn from Daniel._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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All right, welcome back or welcome to the Finding Mastery podcast. I am Michael Gervais, and by trade and training, I'm a sport and performance psychologist, as well as the current co-founder of Compete to Create. And the idea behind these conversations is to learn from people who are on the path of mastery. And what that really means is we want to better understand what they're searching for. We want to dig to understand their psychological framework and how they see the world themselves in it, how they explain events, and also understand the mental skills they've used to build and refine their craft. Finding Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Solutions. In any high-performing environment that I've been part of, from elite teams to executive boardrooms, one thing holds true. Meaningful relationships are at the center of sustained success.

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There's way more than that happening here. Don't tell. Okay. All right. Look, they're incredibly simple. They're effective. 28 grams of protein, just 150 calories and zero grams of sugar. It's rare to find something that fits so conveniently into a performance-based lifestyle and actually tastes good. Dr. Peter Attia, someone

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And I love that David is making that easier. So if you're trying to hit your daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash finding. Now, this week's conversation is with Dr. Daniel Chow, founder of Halo Neuroscience. And I've been watching this company for a long time, and it's exciting. So, quick history on Dr. Chow. His whole life has been dedicated to understanding the brain and its function, specifically how electrical stimulation can help the brain more rapidly improve performance, cognition, function, and overall happiness.

And as some of you already probably are aware, we recently partnered with Halo Neuroscience because I'm bullish on their technology, Halo Sport. And their aim is to accelerate movement-based learning through transcranial direct current stimulation, also known as TDCS, if you want to research it. And I have wanted to have an in-depth conversation with Daniel to learn more about how scientists are using brain stimulation to optimize neurological functioning and to go deeper into what's possible with this technology. For me, this technology is right on the frontier with about 15 years of research. And it's currently used by world-class athletes, US Olympic athletes, players in the NFL, Major League Baseball, NBA, PGA Tour, and many more. And in a previous Finding Mastery podcast, to be exact, number 45, psychologist Anders Ericsson outlined his research on how expert performers acquire

their skill through deliberate practice. So why is that important? In deliberate practice, it's a full and deep and possibly nauseatingly deep focus on whatever the skill is that you're working on learning, which obviously involves minimizing distractions and practicing just outside of one's comfort zone. And what if adding a layer of technology to Anders' research to that deliberate practice could accelerate the rate of learning by, let's say, up to 50%. And that's something we discuss in this conversation. And Daniel believes we're just scratching the surface of what's possible for accelerated and intelligent learning. And that's why this conversation to me and this partnership is really exciting. As someone who's always been captivated by the power of the mind. This conversation was such a treat for me. So I can't

wait to share with you what I learned with Daniel. So with that, let's jump right into this conversation with Dr. Daniel Chow. How are you? Feeling good. Yeah, thanks. How are you? I'm fantastic. You know, I'm excited to have this conversation with you. I've known about your product for some time. I've been watching it. I think it's maybe four years. Is that about right? Four or five years, somewhere in that month? Yeah. Founded the company in 2014. Yeah. So I was watching it from early days, super interested in what you're doing, appreciating the electrical signals in the brain and how that works and the targeting of product that you guys created. So I love it. You've disrupted the field. You've added something that is brand new, really in a consumer way. So I'm excited to have the conversation with you

about how you got here. Where should I start? How much time do we have? Yeah. So let's talk about like, what was it it like where did you grow up let's start early days just to get some yeah anaheim california so i'm imagining sublime was part of the music reference yeah i mean some pennywise maybe i i mean i'm like uh i'm in my mid-40s so there was like uh some really early rap that was happening at that time and then there was uh yeah i don't know there was like new wave that's like i don't know what you call it these days but like depeche mode was big and the cure and those kinds of bands yeah okay and then was it middle class upper class was it lower class? What was the economic structure?

I felt like I grew up upper middle. You say you felt like it. I felt like I had everything I needed. My dad went to Stanford, PhD, USC, worked in the aerospace industry. He was doing good. I mean, he did good. My mom didn't have to work, but she did. And so that was an extra source of income. And I felt like I had everything I needed growing up. Like, you know, food was never an issue. Going to college was never an issue. So I'm very, very thankful for the hard work that my parents put in to provide me with a stable upbringing. Okay, brothers and sisters?

Yeah, younger sister, three and a half years younger. Okay. And then what does she do? She's a college teacher. Okay. Yeah, marine biology college teacher. So education was important for your family? Very much so.

Yeah. My son is 10 years old, and he came home the other day day and he says, Dad, where'd you go to college? I said, why do you ask? And he said, because I want to know where I'm going to get in. I said, son, what are you talking about? And he said, well, there's a word I can't quite remember, but some kids were talking about it. I said, was the word legacy? And he said, yeah.

I said, son, you're 10 years old. Forget about it. That's not what we're doing. But you had some legacy at Stanford, said, yeah. I said, son, you're 10 years old. Like, forget about it. Like, that's not what we're doing. But you had some legacy at Stanford. It sounds like. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, my, my dad always, I, he was very proud of going to Stanford and he always dreamed of me going to Stanford and, you know, luckily I, I was able to do that, but I think I should point out, cause you know, people will see, you know, by my name that I'm Chinese and I've got immigrant parents and suburban, upper middle class, immigrant Chinese parents focus on education. You might assume certain things. It does not sound like a stereotype yet. My parents were not the tiger parents that one would think.

They were hippies. So they came here to get away from a certain lifestyle. So they moved here in 68. From? From Taiwan. So they escaped the Chinese, the communists in China when they were very, very young, like four years old. What do you make about them? Like, how did they do that?

What was inside of them as an organic way of engaging in life for them? What do they represent to you? You know, they represented to me like, you know, I think they're – what they represented to me was freedom. So they worked hard and provided a foundation to give me freedom to pursue what I loved. And when you said that, what was the feeling attached to it? That of love. Yeah. Like you, I can see it. Right. So there's a deep gratitude. Like they really shared something special with you. For sure. And they never encouraged me to study medicine.

Okay. And then they taught you risk. They taught you living authentic and following your dream, their dream because they escaped if you will. Yeah. Right. And so do you know the stories about how they escaped? Uh, I mean, they were very young when they escaped. So it wasn't really they're doing it was their parents doing. I mean, they're like, yeah, two, four years old. Okay. So when they escaped China, barely. Yeah. Okay. Brilliant. What are the stories that they pass on to you that have are now infused in your approach to business and life? Yeah. I mean, my dad would tell me stories about when he landed here. I mean, it was literally with the shirt on his back. You know, he had a

acceptance letter to Stanford, but you know, beyond that he had to make things work. I mean, he said that he would literally, he scrubbed toilets. I mean, he literally scrubbed toilets to pay for tuition, pay for room and board. He would remind us of that. It's like, listen, you should be above nothing because this is what it takes. Rad. So dad was 20, 18? Yeah.

Yeah. He came for graduate school. He came for graduate school, cleaned toilets, did whatever it took. And he reminded you and your sister, it sounds like, that be above nothing. What does that mean? Be above nothing? Yeah. You are not entitled to a clean job. You have to do what it takes to achieve your goals.

Along the way, it might not be sexy. It might be, frankly, dirty. But you just have to do it. So, yeah, that still sticks with me. Is our mom and dad alive? Dad isn't. Dad passed? Yeah, dad passed.

How long ago? A while ago. 2003 2003 so he died when you were young yeah 30s yeah yeah what was that like if you don't mind me exploring here the most difficult thing of my life is that the most for sure okay and then was it a sudden death or did you have time under your belt to know? Six months. Cancer. Cancer. Yeah. Okay. And then how did you prep for those six months? Did you use the classic denial strategy? Did you use something else? How did I prep? How does one prep? I don't know. If someone told me that my dad had six months to live, I've got an idea of what I do, but I haven't been in those shoes.

Maybe two things. So I heard about him getting cancer just a few months after I graduated from medical school. So a big part of what I could offer the family is just to be close to him and make sure that like the whole medical side is taken care of. So there was a part of this whole process that I was just very occupied, right? Like doctor's appointments and figuring out bookings and this kind of thing. The other half is knowing that despite us doing everything, that the end was near and not really communicating that to everyone because you know you want you don't want to take away people's hope but in you know the reality of medicine i knew that this form of cancer that he had at the stage that we caught it the situation was dire from day one of diagnosis. It was dire. So just really cherishing every moment, try to like, try to find some thread of happiness in every day, having conversations that

you should have had 20 years ago, but why not today? Um, yeah, that's how we use the time. That's how I prepared. Did you have the conversation about becoming an adult? You know, there's, there's a rite of passage that we miss as modern day people that, you know, it's not crisp. So I'm wondering if you had that conversation about being an adult. I didn't, you know, I think the reason why we didn't is because my dad treated me as an adult from the time I was very young. That's a good image, right? Like, yeah, I mean, he just, I don't know. I just had this relationship, especially with my dad, less so with my mom, but to some extent with my mom, you know, I just, I just felt like since the time I was maybe a young teenager, we were cool. I mean, we would, we would talk to each other about substantial

things and he would be interested in my opinion and it would help shape his opinion. And we would have these conversations. I love that. Um, how has that informed you now? I mean, I hope I treat my employees the same way where, you know, I hire them to do a job, right? And I hire them with a level of expertise that to provide them the freedom to do their job to the best of their ability. Like, you know, I asked them, are you doing your best work? Are you the happiest you've ever been in your job? And are you doing your best work? And if the answers are yes for those two questions, then like I'm happy. How often do you ask those questions?

Once a week, once a day, once a month, once a year, once a month, once a month. Is this an, a formal sit down or is this like, Hey, let's have the conversation. Like, are you, and what are they, are you happy? And are you doing your best work? So, uh, we, we try to do feedback in real time. But if it doesn't happen because other meetings conflict and time doesn't allow, then we have a standing meeting once a month, 30 minutes. And the only thing we talk about is how you doing? How are you doing? Are you doing your best work? Who does that for you?

My co-founder. So you guys do that together? And we do that together for each other. And then how many direct reports do you have? Six. Six direct reports. And he has a different six or the same six? Yeah, he has a whole different set.

He's the CTO. So all the engineers and manufacturing report to Brett. Okay. All right. And then how many total in the company? Employees? About 40. About 40? Yeah. Okay. All right. And then how many total in the company employees? About 40. About 40. Yeah. Okay. And then you, the six that you're managing, you have that once a month conversation. Yeah. Okay. Let's, let's go, let's keep going back. High school was like, yeah, high school was in Anaheim public high school, big public high school. What was it like for you?

High school was fun. Fun. Yeah. Good social group. Good social group. Same group of guys that I met when I was six years old were my best friends through high school. Okay. So you had a community. Yeah. Yeah. So it was, I mean, it was literally the same group of people when we met were, you know, knee high and we grew up together. They're still some of my best friends. So it was literally the same group of people when we met. We're knee high and we grew up together. They're still some of my best friends. Did many of them go to top universities? None of them. None of them.

So you were different there. I was many. Most of those guys didn't even graduate. High school? Yeah. Okay. So I don't know. It's interesting how it all worked out.

But, you know, those guys are like brothers to me. What was different for you? Like what was different in your – it sounds like it was your family structure. Your dad laid some groundwork there. Yeah. I just – I tried more in school. You know, school wasn't a priority for my buds. And why was it for you?

Yeah, you know, I saw school as a necessary stepping stone to my next steps in life. Which were? Doing something great for the world. When did you have that idea? Very, very young. Like how young? Very, I mean? Very, very young. Like how young? Very, I mean, very, very young. I mean, my dad was very important in shaping that in me.

I mean, he was in aerospace, and he's like, listen, there's other places in aerospace that I could work, but I'm specifically choosing this because I feel like I can do something good for the world. Like he wasn't into launching missiles. He worked for the space shuttle program, right? Space shuttle was about putting satellites in space and science and this kind of thing. So he's like, I want you to think about doing something,

something like that for the world. Are we talking about eight, eight years old, younger, younger, six. Yeah. Like since you can remember that was a guiding

principle in your family yes do something good for the world yes hot damn what were conversations at dinner like you know he was my parents were both, they were as interested in how well I treated my teachers as I did academically. So, you know, there was two grades. You got your grade grade, A, B, C, D. And then there was another grade for your citizenship score. Do you remember that yeah so yeah it was interesting that you know they'd be like hey you know you didn't like what did you learn are you doing okay do you need help blah blah but are you getting along with your teachers

this kind of thing so you know i think uh maybe that's something that's traditionally chinese is like respect for your teacher that's cool right did Did you have, do you have kids? Yeah. Yeah. And is there something that you're hoping that you pass on to them that was passed down from your parents? Yeah. Maybe it was just that. Just try to leave the world a better place. Okay. So that's like a family tradition. I hope so. Yeah. Really cool. Okay. How are you doing on it? I think I'm chipping away at it little by little. So it makes like, when I think about your product and the business that you're running right now, it's like, okay, I believe you, right? Like I believe that about you. And I believe that that

was the gift that your father gave you. And I also believe that you're going to, that's going to be in the forefront of your conscious when you make decisions about how to cut corners, where to cut corners. It sounds cheesy when I say it that way. But you can't have a medical grade product at a consumer price. Oh, you're looking at me like I'm wrong. Can you? So we do. That's great. Okay. So I'm flat out wrong. But so let's, you know, what we sell right now is this neurostimulator, Halo Sport for accelerating movement learning. And, you know, it is in many ways medical grade, but for us to actually sell that as a proper medical device, there's additional steps that we would need to take. So, you know, it's of a certain medical grade, but is it at an absolute medical grade where, you know, if it were cleared for the treatment of X, Y, or Z, could we sell the current product as a medical device? We couldn't. We would have to level up a little bit, but you know, so Mike, it would be incremental. It wouldn't be substantially different from the product that we sell today.

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and use the code FINDINGMASTERY20 at checkout. Again, that's Felix Gray. You spell it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com and use the code FindingMastery20 at FelixGray.com for 20% off. Let's go back to the origin. So we talked about a couple of transitions so far in your life, like the transition of your dad, the transition your dad to here and some of the gifts that he's passed on. And then what was that transitional moment when you had an idea to use transcranial neurostimulation to create a business around it? Yeah. So, you know, there's a couple of things that led to the founding of Halo. So,

you know, for folks that don't know, this is actually my second neurostimulation company. My co-founder and I both come from a company called NeuroPace, where together we developed a medical device, so a neurostimulator used to treat epilepsy. And that was a big chunk of our life. That was 10 years of our life. But, you know, we're very proud to have been a part of this team to develop this neurostimulator that is helping people with epilepsy achieve relief from their disease in a way that drugs could never achieve. So that was wonderful. FDA approved in 2013 and out there helping thousands of people with epilepsy. So awesome. But one thing that we thought we could do better was could we develop a similar technology, a neurostimulation technology that didn't require surgery. So, you know, with the NeuroPace device, it was three hours of surgery

with electrodes going into the brain and a pulse generator implanted in the skull. Yeah, it's not something that most people would want, this level of brain surgery. So, you know, we took a step back and we said, listen, you know, this idea of using electricity as medicine for the brain has real legs. Like we saw it with our own two eyes through the lens of Neuropace. Now, what if we can take this technology and build it into a package such that to benefit from it, it didn't require surgery, right? So, you know, so-called non-invasive brain stimulation is this field that we were became really really interested in and we started scanning the literature and we like at the time it

was kind of fortuitous timing just as that as we were thinking about this field this group in germany started publishing papers looking at the technology that is now in Halo Sport. It's called transcranial direct current stimulation, TDCS. So that was back in 2005, 2006. And then over the years, we continued to follow the field. And what started off as a few papers led to dozens and hundreds of papers. And that started to get us really excited because we started seeing physiologists connecting the dots with empirical results, getting results in otherwise healthy people for enhancement purposes. Originally, it was for depression, anxiety. It was for medical disorders.

And there's always that thought around labs that I was in. It was always a thought like, yeah, we think we could use this for performance enhancement. We're not quite sure. It's not approved for it. Like that was when you were like, oh, it sounds like there could be a business here. Yeah. I mean, so yeah, you're, you're right. There was a lot of early data looking in disease models showing that you can, you know, you can help these people with a relief of symptom X, Y, and Z if you use neurostimulations. Okay. So then you're watching the science, you're watching the research come through. There's that hum and buzz in the air that we could possibly use it for healthy people. And then what happens next for you? So, uh, we're in a good spot to leave our last company.

We achieved FDA approval and selling devices commercially. You know, Brett and I felt pretty good that this was a good time for, for us to leave that company and to start Halo. So that did you sell? Uh, no, it's still a private company. Okay. Nice. So our, our shares are ill liquid still. Um, so we, you know, still today our, our, our shares are, you know, our shares are our shares. Great. But that's fine. So we leave that company, start Halo. And we're talking about the early days. We raised $2 million to get started.

And for our early investors, we told them, we'll accept your check on one condition, that you are not allowed to ask us for a business plan for a year. So we didn't know how we were going to make money. We said we first need to characterize the science. So that first year was just a small scientific team, myself and Brett. We rolled up our sleeves, running subjects. We tested about 1,000 people that first year. And the first thing we did was we replicated other people's research. So there's a handful of studies that we really admired, but we didn't know if they were embellishing the results.

There's nothing like reproducing someone else's data to make sure that their data was correct. So we did that. And at that point, we started to think like, boy, there's some real legs under this technology. Now we need to cross the chasm. It's fine to show that we can improve motor learning in these like very laboratory based tasks. Now we have to take the technology on the road to actual real athletes with real coaches to show that we could accelerate movement based learning in athletic movements that actually matter, like vertical leap and this kind of thing. So for folks that might not be

familiar is that this is electricity going from the device through the skull and into particular parts of the brain, the motor cortex. And so it's intrusive in that way as opposed to neurofeedback which is more i don't want to say passive but it is but it is passive yeah right and so there's a difference and the fundamental difference i think when you think about a user's experience is like wait a minute you're going to fire electricity into my brain what are you turning on and what is turning off right and so that's i think i want to talk to you about what's being turned off i know what's being turned on well we think we know what's being turned on at least you probably have a better sense than i do of course but okay so what is

actually happening from the neurostimulation standpoint like what is actually happening for people's brains yeah yeah yeah so the so there's a couple things and they um they require uh the user to um to tell the device what to do so the first thing the user needs to do is tell the device which parts of the body that they plan on focusing for this neck for this workout. So it could be legs, corn arms. It could be your left hand if you're a violinist. So you pick the part of the body that you plan on working out and that tells the device which electrodes to turn on and off. Okay. So it's like a three little kit, three little sponge conductors.

That's right. And each one of them has maybe i'm guessing 24 that's right yep so 24 electrodes that are coming out and then so if we just do the back row we're we're touching or the front row we're more we're more prefrontal and touching the the prefrontal part of the motor cortex uh yes so the the three electrodes that you see we call them primers electrically they're divided into two um so not to get too technical here but you know what you see as three is actually six different electrical contacts sure left and right or forward and back um it's left and right so yeah ear cup to ear cup okay you know depending on what you pick, we'll turn on a different array or montage of, you know, what's on and off, what serves as a cathode, what serves as an anode. Um, and you know, like the neuroanatomy is highly stereotyped

between individuals. Um, so we use that to our advantage in such like you know when you pick legs core and arms chances are between 99.9 percent of humans on earth like it's going to be the electrode sitting right on top so we turn that one on and then we have the return electrode be the other ones and when you say return is that the neg the negative uh where are you grounding yeah so it's the returns the returns is the ground yeah okay all right yeah that's clever that you did that because one of the other companies i was part of we had to have a ground on the earlobe and you figured out a way to not have that be the case yeah yeah so that's a nice job there i was wondering how you solved that. All right. How do you know, I've read your research and how do you, well, I tried, you know, like you've got some, you've got some research, the, the ones on the, on the website, the ones that you guys sent,

sent over as well. And then just looking at other transcranial stimulation research, how do you know that what you've built is working? Yeah. So there's two ways. I mean, the way that I always like to go back to is just randomized controlled trials. You know, when you take a group of people and you randomly split them up into two and half of them get the real thing and the other half get sham, what we call fake neurostimulation, it feels like the real thing, but it actually does nothing. That's right. And you treat them all the same and you train them all the same and you do before and after testing and you compare the two groups and sure the sham group gets better because they did some training, but the stimulated group gets better yet. You can take credit for that Delta. You know what I loved in one of the research articles is that the sham

group they there was no no transcranial stimulation taking place no current going into their brain and they reported and one of the side effects i think you had like headaches and something whatever whatever and the sham group reported a higher incident of headaches post sham yeah Yeah. Like I, that's classic. It is. It is. Yeah. That was classic. Okay. So you, you're saying, but I didn't see, I think it's, that's how important the control group is flat out. But I didn't like when I was looking at the control groups that you had, are you, are you at a place where you're like, okay, we feel really strongly. Are you in early days? Because the control groups from the research that I read, it wasn't like it was double blind, you know, studies with like a large N. There were a number of subjects. It looked like there were moderate subject numbers, you know, and not double blind.

But maybe I missed something on the double blind. Yeah, so they were double blind. So, but maybe I missed something on the double blind. Yeah. So they were double blind, but they were, but, um, but yeah, I mean, to your point, you know, we're talking about 20 some odd, 30 some odd subjects. Yeah. So we're looking at, you know, in the teens in each group, um, when you do, when, when you do, uh, you know, a randomized trial. Yeah. I didn't know. I didn't realize they were double blind. I thought they were just blind to the subject, not the researcher, but they're double blind to both. Yeah. I mean, arguably even triple blind because the statistician is blinded too. Okay. All right. Okay. So are, do you guys feel like your early days on research or you feel pretty

strong about where you are? I'm happy where we are, but I think we're in the really early days. I mean, I think in the entire field we're pretty early. I mean, I like to think back to where Henry Ford was back in the automotive industry. It's like, okay, he had something that worked, figured out how to do mass production and have the line running and the car can take you to point A to point B, but there was a lot.

And it was revolutionary for its time. But, you know, look, look where we are now, right? I mean, we've got, you know, gas cars, electric cars, hybrid cars, trucks. Who are your competitors? The status quo. Where are you going to spend the money and what you're going to do for warmup, right? Like those. Yeah. Maybe another way as, uh, our biggest competitor is, um, I think something that you brought up is, is people's natural instinctive first reaction to when you say brain stimulation, or when you say electricity in the brain, it usually triggers one of two things. electroconvulsive shock therapy for deeply

depressed humans so that's fear yeah that's right um and the other is snake oil okay so how do you so you can address the fear one saying we're not going to hurt you now do they are you believable do i think I'm believable? Right. Well, and again, one of your pieces of research was that your product is safe. Yeah, I believe the product is extremely safe. And every day we're just learning more about how safe it is. You know, I think we've collected a quarter million successful neurostimulation sessions. It's probably more than anyone else. Walk me through why I should not,

why we should not be afraid of having electricity stimulated, going through our skull, you know, into our brain. Why should we not be afraid of that? Yeah. So, you know, electricity is the currency by which the brain communicates with itself, right? Neurons talk to each other through electricity. Neurons actually create, by doing their normal business, like all of us sitting here right now, our brain is creating its own electric field.

Could light up a light bulb if we had the right apparatus on our head. Correct. And the electric field that we are imparting onto the brain is actually a fraction of the strength of the electric field that the brain creates itself. So, you know, in many ways, what the brain sees in the neurostimulation that we provided is far more natural than the things that we use today that we're not afraid of. Cell phones. or like all these drugs that people take psychiatric medications neurologic medications which are general not specifically targeted very much though i mean these are these little chemicals and we take them by mouth and hope that it gets through the gut into our blood runs a lap across all of our internal organs kidney liver spleen like you

know before it touches our brain and then in the brain it goes all over the place yeah an incredibly messy way to derive therapy what is the hertz that you're using zero zero hertz that's right and the frequency is that the same? Yeah, the frequency is zero. Zero. Zero hertz. And then how does that work? Like, why is it zero? Yeah, so it's one big long pulse.

Oh, it is? Yeah, yeah. It doesn't feel that way. Oh, you feel a frequency. Yeah, right. But what do I know? Like, you know, really, it just feels like there's stimulation there. But you're saying it's one long pulse for the 12 minutes, 20 minutes or whatever. Correct. And

okay. How come? Yeah. So that's, uh, you know, the, the original research, like, um, that that's where it has led us. Um, you know, there was a theory, I guess what started as theory is like, listen, can we change the resting memory potential by using a direct current, by using like a consistent electric field for a certain length of time? Can we change the resting memory potential? Resting memory potential. So related to action potential? Correct. Okay. And so the folks that have forgotten about action potential is that once you stimulate a neuron, am I saying this correctly, that at a particular rate, it fires.

And that's the action potential. So there's the resting membrane potential, and that's just a neuron at rest. When that resting membrane potential drifts towards this potential called the threshold potential. That's right. That's when something magical happens. If it drifts to the threshold potential, enough things happen to that neuron that convince it to fire an action potential. There you go. So neuropriming is to impact the resting memory.

Such that it's a little bit closer to the threshold potential. There you go. So then if the, if the wires that fire together, you know, this is where learning takes place. And so you're saying we're going to prime, literally prime the resting, the resting memory potential to get closer. Did I say it right? Yeah. To get closer to turn on and when you do that then there's something like to use your word the magic happens but you get

these neurons to fire together wire together learning takes place and then you're closer to learn uh being more optimized exactly yeah there you go yeah so it all makes sense like great got it how do we know it's actually working? Right. So this was my challenge. Right. And that's why I'm asking because if you take heroin, you know it works. Right. If you take a sleep aid, you know it works. And I'm not advocating either of those. I'm saying like if you do any drug, that's the thing. It's like it works right away. That's why people like them because it happens like whatever, even benign stuff. You do a bench press, you know, something's taking place. You meditate. Yeah. You're not quite sure. It takes time. You might feel a little bit of a, I don't know, some sort of relaxation

response, which is the gold dust of meditation, right? The primary reason to meditate is to do refocus training awareness training so how do i know it's working so i'd love to convince you with data because i'm a data guy okay but there's no control group for you that's right that was my that was my challenge when we were sorting out like you know is this a product that i want to endorse right and and partner up with you on that way how do i know it was working because i'm right right so there's a so there's a couple ways um so how do you do an experiment with n of one right and of just you if you're the type of person who is highly trained and basically plateaued. Oh, highly trained, highly trained. No, I'm joking. This was for standup paddling. So it's

like I'm relatively new at it. Okay. So maybe not a great example here for you, but let's say you're an Olympic athlete or something like that. And you know, your times and you plateaued whether you're like maybe deep deep down inside you realized you plateaued and the only thing that you do different in terms of your training is that this one intervention right and then you see a little step function yeah easy that's great yeah like um and for placebo or not that's great but you're saying that it's not a placebo based on your research well that's right that's right i mean and you know out out in the wild if we get a result we get a result now now you sound like a coach i'm joking it's good right but it's true like there's sometimes like we'll look at each other in the back room like the coaches will look at each other and we're

like you think you think that was evidence-based it like, no, but it seemed like it's working, you know? So like, like innovation happens on the spot often. And so anyways, I'm joking with you, but you want to point to data. I respect this. Or results are results. And you know, sometimes you, like, you don't have to ask too many questions as to who gets the credit. Okay, so there's that. Now, if you're relatively new to an activity or a skill that you want to learn, you're on this juicy part of the learning curve. And experimentally, that's a source of noise for us. So your natural learning, it's wonderful and it's going to happen. But experimentally, it's a source of

noise because you're going to learn a lot anyways. How can we convince you that without this, you wouldn't have gotten quite to where you are today now that you did use it, right? So it's a challenge, Mike. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day. And Cozy Earth has become a new part of that. Their bedding, it's incredibly soft, like next level soft. And what surprised me the most is how much it actually helps regulate temperature. I tend to run warm at night and these sheets have helped me sleep cooler and more consistently,

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checkout for 20% off your first order. That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B-b.com slash finding mastery okay so then where do you guys get concerned where are your concerns about the product whether from a business standpoint or from a fidelity standpoint yeah i mean i feel really confident with the product and the science i worry about our timing so one thing that i really i think about a lot is the Apple Newton. Nobody remembers the Apple Newton because it was ahead of its time. It was a wonderful product. It was this thing that lived in your pocket and it was like this little computer in your pocket. You take notes on it.

Yeah. Take notes on it. You got your list of contacts. Early adopters only. Mm-hmm. And then two years later, the Palm Pilot came out. And it was just that two years that people came around to it. And the Palm Pilot did very well.

Where do you want to take the company? Do you want to stay in sport? Do you want to move out of sport? Yeah, we'll stay in sport. Yeah, we love the product. We love our users. And we think there's a lot more we can do there. Um, but you know, we're, we see ourselves as a human performance company, not just a sports performance company.

So you could expect neurostimulators to target different parts of your brain for different functional benefits, right? You're going to get back into hippocampus. Hippocampus is pretty deep i don't think we'll ever be able to hit the hippocampus right so is it the first i don't know what millimeters like is that the target zone yeah yeah it's just a couple millimeters in there that's right it'd be nice to get the hippocampus because we need some stimulation for memory as we get above whatever there's age. So one way you can do that is you hit neurons that tie directly to the hippocampus. So it might not be the hippocampus directly,

but you basically stimulate its neighbor, and the neighbor talks directly to the hippocampus, and you can reach the hippocampus. So, yeah, there's definitely some applications. Like, you know, we're really interested on the cognitive side. We're really interested on the medical side. You know, as a doc, you know, that's a big part of where my heart still is. So for every consumer product that we ship, there will be a medical version of those products.

Like, you know, for example, with Halo Sport, we're doing medical testing and stroke rehab. Yeah. So, you know, instead of sports training, what if you did physical therapy with neurostimulation? It's the same kind of thing. What do you say to people that say snake oil? Like what, like smart people that don't know or have, they read some research or whatever. What do you, what do you say to them what do you want to say to them you know i i don't mind that they say that i just want to have a conversation uh you know as long as they have an open mind while they say that let's just have a conversation around it and i just want to talk about data i don't want to

get emotional about it i just want to let's just talk about the data and then what research would you point to the most i mean there's 4 000 papers right now it's like overwhelming now those papers are about the the technology not the product uh correct right and so there's a difference in there and you need to have a little bit of a black box, right? As for IP protection or, and have you guys, I don't know how to break open to look exactly what you're, what you're doing. Like I don't have that sophistication. Are you a black box or are, is it open source for people that are much brighter and neuro,

neuro electrical stuff? We are. I mean, I guess part of the system is a black box because of safety reasons but uh yeah we encourage scientists to use halo sport as a medical device in fact we give them a special portal where we open up like a set of research tools that they uniquely have access to so you know the hardware is actually capable of doing a lot more than we give consumers access to that's what I'm talking about.

Like what? So, yeah, like under the hood, we can do alternating current. You talked about frequency. So instead of frequency being zero, you can alter the frequency to almost, you know, within reason to a variety of different frequencies if you wanted. Or you can even vary the frequency. You could set up pulsatile stem. So we give researchers, you know, those you can even vary the frequency. You could set up pulsatile stem. Um, so we give

researchers, you know, those tools to run their, um, to run their studies. And, you know, we're really happy to help power, um, you know, scientific research and to be partners with these people. Very cool. Yeah. So we, I'd like to, we can do that. We can have this conversation later, but coach Carol, head coach of the Seattle Seahaw, and I are co-creators, I think is the technical term, co-creators of the Performance Science Institute out of this business school at USC, University of Southern California. And so the whole purpose of that is to figure out best in class, best practices that we've learned from the world of elite athletics, and to bring them into the, those practices into the next generation of business leaders. So we, we, we'd like to

design something. We'd like to figure, like break it open, take a look at what are some of those best practices, you know, and we'd like to do that with you. That, that would be, I think a great partnership that we could explore at a deeper level. We'd love that. Yeah, good. That'll be fun. I don't know what that means yet, but that could be fun. Okay. Let's talk about learning while we're talking about the next generation of leaders. There is a butchering of the original research by Erickson that 10,000 hours is the magic number, right? So 10,000 hours, that's not what he originally said. That's what Gladwell said. That's what an author said that never contacted him.

Do you know that? No. Yeah. I had Erickson, Anders, Dr. Erickson on the podcast and he's like, yeah, oddly enough. And he was the original researcher, right? And he says, yeah, it's a good book. He never contacted me though to talk about it. So it was a great podcast. It was a really good one. He's super smart. But so I want to talk about it. So it was a great coffee still. Yeah, a lot of coffee. It was a great podcast.

It was a really good one. He's super smart. But so I want to talk about that concept for a minute. Let's say that there is some sort of range of deliberate practice. Right. And so you guys are in the business of enhancing the neuro priming that precedes deliberate practice. If somebody has great deliberate practice capabilities and they put on your product and they're primed, so it's more efficient. What do you think about shortening

the life or the arc to become masterful at said expertise? So the data shows that we could accelerate the rate of learning by about 50%. In half? Yeah. So let's say you learn to an arbitrary number of one, you would have gotten to 1.5 in the same amount of time with the same amount of practice. Okay. Say it again. Okay. So let's say you're learning to shoot free throws.

And instead of being a 50% or you, you got to 75%. Okay. So 50% increase in the rate at which you learned like that success rate would have gotten you to what? 87.5. So 50% increase. Yeah. We're talking about percentages. So, you know, half of 25% is 12 and a half. So, I got it. I see where you went. Okay. So is the position that you're taking that if you prime properly prior to movement, you'll decrease the amount of time to become skilled at whatever, whatever craft that you're interested in? Correct. Yeah. So why would somebody not want to prime them?

That's what I'm talking about. Yeah. I mean, I think, uh, I mean, if you think about anybody who's a serious athlete, they need to think about their longevity. Um, and like what really, like what limits their longevity? Like, you know, why do people, why do athletes get old and why do athletes slow down? I mean, a big part of that is just, um, is load on the body, like physical load on the body. And the vast majority of physical load on the body comes from practice, not from performance. It comes from practice. So what if you can make practice more efficient, right? Like what if we can get, what if we can, you know, accelerate the rate at which we learn? And, you know, at the end of the day,

all of our, all of us on earth, like we have an athletic window of opportunity and at some point that window starts to close. And, you know, if we were all super learners like Steph Curry or LeBron. And, you know, if we were all super learners like Steph Curry or LeBron James and, you know, people that are just incredibly skilled and incredibly fast at learning their craft, you know, maybe we can all become professional athletes. Right. But, you know, the door slams on us at some point and like our opportunity, like we still might be learning, but the physical side of us starts to shut down. So, you know, I think elite athletics or any athletics, I mean, everybody, like everybody has their, their vision of elite and everybody can feel good about being an athlete, no matter

what level they are. So, you know, whatever someone's athletic goals are, it's really a race against movement learning. It's really a race against time and the rate at which you can learn. Really cool thought. So can you give some examples of where that accelerated learning is taking place or where you've seen it? Yeah. So I, you know, some of the partners that we've worked with, uh, you know, we've seen in basketball players that we can get them to jump higher. We've seen with our work with the military that we can get them to do these shooting exercises in less time. Which branches are you working with? Yeah, so a big part of our work is with Navy special, Naval special warfare, and to some extent with Army special operations as well.

Nice work. And what are you finding there with that group? I understand deeply why neuro priming would be of interest. And what are you finding there? One of the challenges of their training is shooting aptitude. Many people don't grow up around guns, and so they're naturally behind their peers who do grow up around guns. And, you know, because of that, you know, someone who could have been a perfectly good soldier, if they had more time, they don't pass the shooting exam, and so they fail out, and, you know, they are not minted, you know, a special operator like they always dreamed. And from the military's perspective, that's also a loss. So, you know, they, they are not minted, you know, a special operator, like they always dreamed.

And from the military's perspective, that's also a loss. So, you know, what can we do for these folks that need a little bit more training? Could we, you know, take them aside and give them an extra week, but this time you're training with neurostimulation, like, could we save that recruit and have them keep going forward? So, you know, that's, that's the, that's the use case. That's the idea. You know, the early results are promising. So let's see where this thing goes. Yeah. That's really cool. Okay. And then what is happening from an imaging standpoint? Have you tested that where you're looking at actually blood flow and electrical currents from an image standpoint? Yeah. So there's a lot of published literature around this now such that, you know, what, you know, so I guess maybe the reason why you're asking this question is, is like, you know,

what we're talking about is a really low level, like a very mild level of neurostimulation. And so some have asked the question, like, well, what's happening in the brain? And some have asked the question, is anything happening in the brain and it's an appropriate question because it is a very mild neurostimulation so you know the data shows of all the different types of scanning that uh that something is happening like unequivocally we are able to influence neurophysiology with this type of neurostimulation. So not only in the parts of the brain that are immediately below the electrode, so that we would predict, but also downstream, like downstream secondary and tertiary connections of these different brain centers that we're stimulating, we're also seeing activation. So not only are we seeing stimulation at the primary site, but also push deeper within the brain through connectivity.

Talk to me about chronic fatigue in your product. Yeah, so chronic fatigue, that's a proper medical diagnosis. And I honestly haven't seen any studies that combine neurostimulation and chronic fatigue that have really caught my eye. Okay. How about depression and what we're working on? Depression is a very interesting application for TDCS. So there's a study called the SELECT study published a few years ago where they looked at 120 subjects. So decent N.

We've been talking about N. So decent N. And it was a two-by-two factorial study. You either got Zoloft, which is a popular antidepressant, or a sugar pill, combined with neurostimulation or fake neurostimulation. So 30 people got neither. 30 people got both. 30 people only got Zoloft. 30 people got TDCS.

So how well did they do? So if you got neither, you did very poorly. Depression did not change. Depression did not change. If you got Zoloft, you got a little bit better, as you would expect. If you got just neurostimulation, you did about as well as the group that got Zoloft. That's really interesting to me because now you can start thinking, all right, instead of offering a drug to everybody on earth, if you're depressed, maybe you can offer a neurostimulator with virtually no side effects and no dependencies and this kind of thing. But not across the motor strip. They were targeting different parts of the brain. Different part of the brain. So it's called the so-called DLPFC.

I'm sorry, this is like medical acronym. So dorsolateral prefrontal cortex. So stimulating this special part of the brain gave people with depression a decent amount of relief, like equivalent to the relief that they would have received if they got Zoloft. And then, um, I'll just for completeness, the group that got both. So Zoloft and neurostimulation, there was actually an additive effect for the two combined. Very cool. And okay. So then let's pivot over to anxiety. Any research on anxiety that's interesting to you?

Limited. Okay. And then we talked about chronic fatigue. What about chronic pain? Chronic pain. Two different places you can stimulate. Motor cortex or DLPFC. Some really interesting work looking at, so I'm going to think back to the study where

they took folks in the hospital who just had surgery. And folks in this situation are often given opioids for pain relief. And they often get a little button and they can push the button a certain number of times per hour. And when you get kicked out of the hospital, you get OxyContin for pain relief, and this could often lead to trouble. And we know that there's a public health crisis in the United States around opioid use. after surgery? And if you combine, if you, let's say you gave someone neurostimulation or sham neurostimulation, could you reduce the amount of opioid that they used with the button in their stay, in their one week stay after their surgery? And it turned out it dramatically reduced the amount of opioids that they needed. So if they needed less opioids in the hospital, that means they need maybe no opioids as a prescription when they go

home. If they had what type of dosage of electrical stem? Yeah. So I, like Mike, I can't remember the exact details, but I think it was pretty bread and butter, like 20 minutes of TDCS too. Why 20 minutes? So that harkens back to the old neurophysiology studies like 10 years ago, where they tried three minutes. They tried 30 seconds. They tried three hours. And it turns out like the sweet spot is 20 minutes, where the sweet spot buys you an hour of like cortical. Yeah, that's really that's really important. So let's talk about that. So you do 20 minutes and it buys you an hour.

Yep. So the effects wear off. The benefits wear off after an hour. So if you put it on in the morning and then you're going to exercise in the afternoon, waste of time. Yep. And then so is the right idea? Do it while so is the, is the right idea do it while doing some sort of dynamic warmup or do it while you're riding the bike or like do it before you're going to play the piano for, you know, do you have to be moving while you're wearing the device?

You don't have to be moving while you're wearing the device, but you should be moving and doing this deliberate practice right after you're wearing, you wear the device. You know what I was doing is I was like a standard paddling is early, like get on the water early. Surfing is just an early sport most of the time. And like I need my extra six minutes of sleep. Yeah. So I wake up, come downstairs,

I pop on the headset as I'm getting ready for, I'm getting some food in me. I'm getting, I'm getting packed. I'm getting things ready to go out the door. And then by the time I hit, and then I do some warmups like in, in, uh, uh, at home, just a quick little thing. And I jump in the car and head to the beach, which is just a couple of minute ride. And I felt like, okay, I'm getting it in. So that's how I get my 20 minutes in.

I don't know. That's perfect. Yeah. There you go. Okay, cool. And then you get into your deliberate training. That's right. And then you're like, you're solidly in that one hour, that afterglow of one hour. Yeah. There you go. Okay, cool. And then you get into your deliberate training. That's right. And you're solidly in that one hour.

In that one hour window. That afterglow of one hour. Yeah. Yeah, brilliant. Okay, quick little pivot here. Pressure comes from? Pressure comes from the investors that we have to, to do what we do.

And there might not be another company that gets this level of funding to give this thing of real shot. Like we do, if we fail. Really cool. You got some responsibility on your shoulders there. I think so. Yeah. Okay. It all comes down to, how do you finish that thought? I think our principles and execution.

What would be three things that you would like to leave people with to help them be better? So one, I would think, um, it's gotta be brain related to, you know, to take care of your brain, to think about how your brain is performing as much as your body, to do the boring things like sleep. Um, so that's one, you know, two is more personal. And that is to think about your purpose in the world, your purpose for this time in the history of the world. And if there's an opportunity to make it a better place, then seize that opportunity. And the third, I don't know. I just, I just feel like, you know, especially in this country, there's so much we should be thankful for the opportunity that we've, we've afforded. And I know it's not an equal level playing field. There's a lot we can do there, but boy, uh, you know, is this an amazing time to be alive and i i guess i worry about the deck that

we're handing the next generation and so you know with all of us doing our our part to um you know to be better people um you know to make your life's work you know something more than yourself like that you know you know i i hope that's one that, you know, I, you know, I, I hope that's one of the takeaways they get from, from being with me. And then how do you do gratitude training? How do you condition yourself to be grateful? That's, that's what I'm hearing in that last one. Yeah.

So there's, uh, you know, we've got a couple of company principals, um, you know, some of the, like, like the tenants of the company and, you know, one of them is to, to deflect the credit. Um, you know, it's just, it's, it's amazing when you see a leader in the company or just like a project lead could be an individual contributor, but they really shepherded a project and they're getting showered with, Oh, congrats, high fives, and this kind of thing. And, you know, within the company, it's something that we really try to celebrate. It's like, listen, thank you. But I got to give a shout out to this person.

Shout out to that person. And so it's almost like, listen, let's let's share the credit. Right. You know, really, it really breeds team when you don't bask in the glory of success, when you share the glory of success. So yeah, I don't know if that gets at your question, but yeah, that's one thing that I think is really important at Halo. The last kind of heavier question is how do you articulate, think about the fine mastery? And I got a part two of that I want to ask you. Yeah, I think mastery is a skill that you know so well that you can perform it at an ultra high level without thinking about it. And what are the main characteristics of mastery?

An effortlessness. Very cool. Yeah. Brilliant. So, yeah, brilliant. Thank you for your time, your expertise, your commitment to your business. But the business is built on the back, I think, as almost an excuse to do good in the world. So I don't mean that to sound callous. Like, I really believe that you would find a way to do good in the world, whether it wasn't this product or service or it was something else. So thank you for sharing difficult things to share. Thank you for sharing and celebrating your dad

and the gifts that he passed on to you. And hopefully you're passing on to the next generation and really taking a deep dive in the technology and answering some difficult questions about how it works, what's actually happening, where you guys are in the arc of change. And so thank you for your time. Thank you for building the product as well. Thank you for your interest, Michael. And not just in the company, but in the story of how I got here and the rest of the company. So it was really an amazing conversation. Thank you. And I also want to thank you for the way that you're taking care of our community and the discount that you're offering folks that want to check out your product.

And so anyone who's interested in a product or interested in been stimulated, pun intended, from this conversation to trying it out, you're offering $100 off per purchase. And so gethalosport.com forward slash finding mastery. And, um, again, thank you for that. That's rad. No, thank you. It's my pleasure. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're

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