Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Dr. Judson Brewer on Habits, Mindfulness, Addiction

Episode Date: March 1, 2017

Dr. Brewer is the Director of Research at the Center for Mindfulness and associate professor in Medicine and Psychiatry at UMass Medical School. He is also adjunct faculty at Yale University, and a research affiliate at MIT. He's at ground-zero when it comes to using science to explain how mindfulness is working -- For me, this was a fantastic conversation about his journey toward mastery -- and his very applied insights on applying good science to upgrade or enhance the habits that get you closer to the man or woman that you're working on becoming._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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And he literally is at ground zero when it comes to using science to explain how mindfulness is working. He is the director of research at the Center of Mindfulness and the associate professor in medicine and psychiatry at UMass Medical School. And he's also an adjunct faculty at Yale University and a research affiliate at MIT. So he's connected to significant universities that are taking a look at the science and the applied science for mindfulness habit change as well as addiction. His new book is The Craving Mind, From Cigarettes to Smartphones to Love, Why We Get Hooked and How We Can Break Bad Habits. For me, this was a fantastic conversation about his journey towards mastery. And we distill very applied insights using good science to upgrade or enhance the habits that will help you become closer to the man or woman that you're working on becoming.

With that, let's jump right into this conversation with Judson Brewer. Judson, how are you? Good. Yeah, cool. I've been looking forward to this conversation, and we have a mutual friend that put us together, Dan Harris. Yes. How long have you known Dan? Years now, maybe five or six years.

Was it mindfulness and meditation that put you guys together or was it some other current or some other relevant interest that you guys had? It was mindfulness, yes. Yeah. So he's on a tear right now. I mean he's on like a serious clip, you know, spreading the good word, if you will, about what he's found's on a tear right now i mean he's on like a serious clip you know spreading the good word if you will about what he's found and discovered in mindfulness yeah totally yeah and so you've you've been studying for a long time so much so that your early studies you shifted from a degree in psychiatric service or in psychiatry from molecular biology is that right yeah my

officially my phd was in immunology and i was so i was doing a md phd program and i shifted from doing mouse work you know conditional knockout mouse genetics into mindfulness research as i shifted and started training in psychiatry during residency. Where did you go to school? Which one? Yeah, let's start with undergrad. I was at Princeton. Okay, and then, so let's back up from there.

So it's a world-renowned school. How did you get to Princeton? I got there because I grew up in Indiana and my high school college counselor told me that I would never get into Princeton. So I applied early. Okay, so that speaks volumes about your motivation and kind of the way you see the world a little bit. So Indiana, small school, big school? I'm talking about high school. Yeah, relatively small to medium size. It was a Jesuit high school. My mom, who actually raised four kids by herself, thought that education was very important. So we went to a Jesuit high school.

Wow. Okay. So mom raised four kids. How did that happen? My parents got divorced when I was about six and my dad took off. And you have, so you say dad took off. There's a little bite when you said that. Is there still a bite about how that relationship ended for you?

Well, I'm sure nobody loves to have their dad take off. I'm glad you laughed about it. That's awesome. But there's, yeah. So, you know, I think that pretty much says it all. There you go. Do you, do you have a relationship with your dad or is that like, um, he left and he left for good? He basically left for good. I saw him a couple of times. Um, but about the time that he stopped spelling my little brother's name correctly, I think we kind of washed our hands of him. Okay. Well, how do you make sense of that and how that relationship ended? I was pretty young, so it didn't work out. Here we are.

And then so single mom, did she have family resources or did she have financial resources in some kind of way or did she put her nose to the grindstone and get to work? How did that work? She started out as an aerobics instructor. And if financial resources count as food stamps, we certainly had some financial resources. So we grew up not with a lot of money. But she worked really hard and even went to law school at night and became a patent attorney. And by the time I was in high school, we were doing pretty well, or middle class. And so it was a very interesting growing up time. We learned to be independent pretty quickly as kids. And I remember my mom even assigning each of us a day of the week to cook dinner while she was at school. And then on Friday, she would cook dinner for us. So it was really a quick growing up process. And then where are you in the order of the children of the, your three siblings?

I'm number two. There are three boys and my sister is third of four. Okay. So the oldest is a, is a brother and then, and then just above you is your sister. Yeah. Just below me. Just below you. Okay. Got it. Okay. All right. So then what was like, so then, okay. So I'm trying to bridge like the early life stuff with this chip on your shoulder that got you to one of the greatest universities in the world. And so like, how did you, how was the early stuff impacting that chip on your shoulder? Like, okay, you said I can't, well here, watch. So how do you link those two for us? I think I really – I just grew up loving a good challenge. And I think maybe this was the first roots of becoming a scientist. But I really – it's like when somebody says something, my mind says, well, is that true?

How do we know that's true? And so, you know, I'm sure that had played a role when my college counselor said, you know, there's no way you'd get in, you know, no way you'd get into Princeton. Wow. Okay. Do you think you learned that questioning because you're trying to sort stuff out from a younger age or is that something Jesuits instilled? Cause they, you? Because they have a way about themselves to really question everything. I was taught at Loyola Marymount University by Jesuits as well. So I've got a familiarity with the intensity of that rigor. So did you learn that early? Or was that something about just being a kid in Indiana? Or was that something

from high school? I think I learned it early, and then it was fostered in high school. My mom was all but dissertation, I think, in graduate school, so it has a very scientific mind as well. And so we grew up being really curious about everything and spending our days at the library and just learning and being really, you know, interested in learning about how the world works. So was that the kind of the central thing for your family was education learning, or was it sports or music or something else? I would say the key theme was education. But having said that, we, you know, we grew up very musical as well. I started playing the violin when I was six. My little brother went to the American Boy Choir School. So there was certainly a thread of education that threaded everything together.

But we were also very into music and sports as well. Can you give me a picture of what mom was like? Was she intense? Was she supportive? Was she a combination of both? What was that environment like from a single mom that was, you know, getting after it for four kids? I think it was a combination of both. So very supportive, very loving, but at the same time,

very pragmatic. You know, it's like, I got to put food on the table for four kids and go to law school. So let's figure out how we're going to do this. So that's amazing. I wish you could know all of the conversations I've had with so many of the guests on Finding Mastery. How many parents had just that right combination of ass-kicking, pragmaticism, at the same time, there was this message of support. I think the majority have had those. Now we've had some outliers where, you know, mom and dad both died by the age of 10. We've had some of those outliers as well, but it seems like that's a common thread. Do you have kids now? I've only been married about three years. Okay. Okay. So no kids. Are they of interest to you or how do you think about that?

We're still living that as a question, actually. Both my wife and I are academics and are very dedicated to our craft. exploring what it would be like to dedicate our lives just in a continued way, the way that we're going, or whether there are other plans in store for us. How do you guys work through that? It's one of those big questions. Carefully. Oh, that's so good. Yeah, it's been a really interesting discussion. You know, we dated a number of years before we got married, I think six or seven. And that was, you know, at one point we broke up because I was like, I'm going to become a monk. She's like, well, monks don't have children. Therefore, I guess we're done. So there were many shifts and many turns in the road as we started the discussion around this and many other things,

and then have continued it. But I have to say, I feel like it's opened up more and more into where we're kind of both resting in the not knowing. At one point, I was very anti-children, and I think just almost instinctively, she would start playing the devil's advocate, and so that we'd have a kind of a tug about ourselves as we discussed it. And then we've both really just relaxed into it more and more in terms of how can we both be most helpful for the world? How can we live our lives most fully and happily? And right now, we're living the question. We don't know. We're trying. Yeah, that's a really cool phrase. I've never heard anyone say it, living that question. And it gives a depth to the heart of trying to figure something out.

Yeah, I love – I think Rainer Maria Rilke talked about in this book that he wrote or that was published, those letters between him and a young poet. Something about live the questions themselves and then someday we'll live into the answers. And that really, really resonates with me. Do. What's the title? Do you remember the title of the book offhand? I think it's called letters to a young poet. Oh gosh. It sounds like a good read. It is, especially cause it's short. That's my reading right now too. Yeah. Are you doing much academic reading or is it, do you find time for, you know, leisure reading or related reading to your passions? You know, I, I do a lot of academic reading, mostly journal articles and things like that. I also try to keep up with the mindfulness literature in terms of, um, you know, a lot of my friends are now putting out mindfulness books.

And a lot of my teachers, you know, have put out books as well. So it's even, it's helpful to keep, try to keep current on how people are relating these practices to the world. And then occasionally, I get to read something that's kind of for leisure and, you know, kind of related. Like I just, what did I just read? I just read a book by Gretchen Rubin. I think it's called Better Than Before. But it was kind of work related because it was, you know, it's about habit change. But at the same time, she was kind of unpacking some really interesting ideas about personality and how that can help, you know, just kind of knowing some of our tendencies can help us change habits. And that was super fascinating to me.

Okay. So we're going to, I think what we're going to talk about is mindfulness. We're going to talk about habits. We're going to talk about the psychology and the anatomy that lead us to strong habits, your point of view on that with some research, as well as ways to build, optimize and optimize habits. Along with maybe we can get into some conversations around flow state. Does that sound about right? Or are there other areas of interest that you hope we explore? Game on.

Let's do it. There we go. Okay. So as we're doing that, let's finish this educational path. Is that so Princeton? a chip on your shoulder, you get into Princeton, early admission? Yes. Okay, early admission to Princeton. And then what was your Princeton experience like? It was wonderful. I never even visited before I went. I just jumped in. And it was great. It know, it was really wonderful. I got, you know, I started

on the crew team, which I think a quarter of the freshman class tends to do. And then realized that, boy, that, you know, to row a varsity, you know, to try to get onto a varsity team at a Div 1 school and to do everything else that I wanted to do is going to be impossible. So, you know, I eventually moved to like the, um, club cycling team and joined the orchestra. And, and I spent quite a bit of time in the outdoors with our outdoor action program. Uh, it was a very, very active outdoor program at Princeton. Okay. All right. And then you were studying biology at that time, or was it psychology? I was studying chemistry, actually. At the time, I was like, oh, the molecules of life. Okay.

All right. And that didn't last long for you? You know, I thought I was going to be a chemist and I was going to apply to grad school. And then I saw a lot of my professors kind of pigeonholing themselves into studying literally these tiny molecules for their entire lives. And I was like, oh, no, what am I about to do? So my girlfriend at the time was, you know, she said, well, why don't you do this MD-PhD thing where you can actually help people and at the same time do research? And so, you know, I thought that was a great idea, especially because if you get into one of these programs, it's paid for.

So I could go to school, get my MD and my PhD for free, and really combine this interest in helping people with learning how the world works. Okay. Oh, so you moved from chem to underlying interests of wanting to help people learn how the world works. Is that how you said it? Yeah, I think so. Okay, and then where did you do your training for your MD-PhD? I went to Washington University in St. Louis, where they had a great MD-PhD program, a very well-known biomedical school there. Okay, and then did you – so that's where you were interested in

psychiatry? You know, not yet. Interestingly, I started meditating my first day of medical school because said girlfriend and I broke up. We were actually engaged to be married. And so that, and I was having trouble sleeping for the first time in my life. And I jumped into studying immunology because I was moving from molecules to moving into humans. Like how do we know that this stuff that we're learning in mice actually applies I shifted into psychiatry because I could see really clear connections between mindfulness and psychiatry, but I was waiting only thing I really know well from experience at this point is mindfulness. And I started getting really interested in addictions because people with this addictive process, I think I could relate to them being underdogs in society. And so that was something that really interested me where, you know, these folks were really suffering and I could, you know, and they were downtrodden and they were beating themselves up and society was beating them up. So I wanted to see how I could help. I could see a clear link between that and mindfulness. And then so started doing clinical research around them. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentus.

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subscription order. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Felix Gray. I spent a lot of time thinking about how we can create the conditions for high performance. How do we protect our ability to focus, to recover, to be present? And one of the biggest challenges we face today is our sheer amount of screen time. It messes with our sleep, our clarity, even our mood. And that's why I've been using Felix Grey glasses. What I appreciate most about Felix Grey is that they're just not another wellness product. They're rooted in real science. Developed alongside leading researchers and ophthalmologists, they've demonstrated these types of glasses boost melatonin, help you fall asleep faster, and hit deeper stages of rest.

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Mastery listeners 20% off. Just head to FelixGray.com and use the code FINDINGMASTERY20 at checkout. Again, that's Felix Gray. You spell it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com. And use the code FindingMastery20 at FelixGray.com for 20% off. Okay. So my question is, do you consider yourself a researcher of mindfulness, a practitioner, a teacher? How do you capture your professional, personal experience as a man? And I think it has to do a lot with mindfulness, but I just want to

make sure that it's open for whatever you're about to say. Yeah. Do I have to box myself in? No, not at all. Yeah. And there's not one molecule that we're going to explore for the rest of this conversation. So professionally, is it about mindfulness or is it about addiction? Is it about habits? Is it about meaning in life? What is the professional interest? Yeah. So I think the underlying professional interest for all of this is suffering. How do we reduce suffering and improve human well-being? How can we help you maximize their potential? And related to that is, well, how do we learn? And related to that is, how do we get in our own way?

So the addiction piece is really central to this because it relates to how we learn and how habits are formed. So I think all of these kind of link together because my practice led to me doing research and then leading to me starting to teach and then develop treatments around mindfulness. So they're all kind of packaged together. Okay. So I've got this model in my head. That's very helpful, Judson. So I've got this model in my head. If you drew a line and it was below the line and above the line, and it's way too simple,

but I just want, I'd love for you to bounce off of this. So below the line is mental disorders or conditions or like way below the line might be severe schizophrenia or severe borderline personality disorder, right? And then close to the line, but we're still below, is maybe some garden variety, anxiety, depression, you know, some of that type of stuff. And then above the line, there might be some anxiety and depression, but it's not debilitating. And as we move even further above that line, it becomes optimal human performance. So way below is like suffering, if there was just one unit dimension, and way above

the line would be, you know, world changing performance or deep insight meaning. Do you have, can you bounce off that in any kind of way? As a very simplistic model? Well, I like very simplistic. Because, you know, I think as humans, we probably a lot of what the way we act and the way we learn is, is kind of a, you know, it's probably based on very simple principles. And so bouncing off that, I would say if we took, okay, so let's, let's take your model. And let's put it, let's put an experiential dimension to that. So I think along that spectrum, if you take that far end, you know, where we're suffering, and actually let's calibrate our system to make sure we're on the same page here. So for example, fear, if you had to say fear was on one end of a

spectrum and the two sides were either contraction or expansion, which side would you say it's on? For fear, for me, it, well, now we're getting back to like a fight or flight experience, right? So contraction, meaning a freeze and expansion, meaning an aggression. For me, I have different experiences that trigger different responses to fear. So I don't have just one, but for most of the time, it's expansion. Like as soon as I feel some fear, I have the compulsion to want to go. To go. Okay, so let's anchor this a little bit more.

Because the actual experience of fear itself, so that moment where there's fear in your own experience, would you say that that's more of a contracted quality to your personal – to your experience or is it more of an expanded quality? And let's calibrate the expanded too. So fight or flight, I wouldn't say expanded falls on this continuum. This is going to be orthogonal where expanded is not contracted basically. So forget about wanting to get out of here. That's how I think of the flight part. That's right.

Yeah. So fight and flight I think fall into the same continuum in my experience actually of a contraction. I'm going to fight. I'm going to hunker down. I'm going to ball my fists and get ready to jack somebody. Or the flight is I'm going to contract as I get ready to spring out the door. Fair enough? Yeah, completely.

So you're seeing both of those on contraction. Yes. And then what are the characteristics of expansion? So expansion would be joy, where I'm just feeling joy or wonder or curiosity. Does that make sense? Where there's a natural kind of unballing, let's say, of that contracted state. And I really see these on a spectrum where there's a – So are we calibrating so far?

Totally. So we could take your model and layer it right over the model that I was talking about as well. That's what I think we could do. Yeah. And so contraction would be disease, like the deepest disease or conditions of psychiatry, psychology, whatever, the human suffering that we're talking about. And you're saying joint expansion or expansion a la joy would be like the optimization of the human experience.

Yes. Yeah, yeah. Okay. So if you take contraction, that even creates this boundary between us and the rest of the world, right? This contraction says to me, this is me, and I'm being threatened by something else. Whereas if you expand that and you take that expansion to infinity, well, what was Chikson Mahai's definition of flow? No sense of self. Yeah. The most optimal state a human can be in.

Yeah. So we break down that barrier between self and other, and suddenly we're, you know, the hokey saying we're one with the universe, right? So there's no boundary between ourselves and what's happening, and that's flow. Okay, so let's go back to the fear as the emotion for the scale that we're talking about. So fear is oftentimes the thought of fear, not actually fear, but the thought of experiencing fear in the future is often such a debilitating experience that people retract before they actually feel the fear. Yes, I love the way you say that the thought of fear in the future. I know, it gets complicated. No, no, it's good because there's actually good neuroscience underlying that very thing, the way you describe that. So I think you've described something that we now have neuroscientific evidence for. So keep going.

Okay, well, I will keep going. But first, if you tell me first, the neuroscience research around it, what are some as self-referential thinking, right? Something's going to happen to me in the future, okay? There's a network of brain regions called the default mode network, and we'll unpack, when we feel a craving, basically when we are not happy with what's going on right now and we're worried or trying to change something that's based on past or future. Does that make sense? A thousand percent. Okay, great. So that self-referential network called the default mode is called that because we spend about 50% of waking life doing things like that. So I don't want this to sound like a downer, but how much of the time each day do we spend thinking about ourselves? Well, there's research showing

that it's about 47% of the day that we're, you know, we're lost in the past. We're thinking about the future. It's unbelievable. I mean, I didn't know that that number was, um, researched. So I've heard that from the 1440 folks, like, uh, 1440, meaning, uh, 1,440 minutes a day. Right. So that idea that 50% of those moments, less the ones that were asleep are spent through self-observation. Yes. Or I would say getting caught up in a sense, you know, in something relating to us. Yeah. Better said because self-observation could be a non-attachment to observing oneself. Yeah. Okay. So you're saying caught up in the, well, what if, or how would that be? Or that's the default mode network that we're talking about?

Yes. Yeah. Beautiful. Okay. So now let's, let's see how well our short-term memory goes. We were talking about fear, like the thought of the fear being the contractor for many people. And so fear is a central part of the conversations that I love being in because the people that I've learned the most from are the ones that have pushed the boundaries of human potential because they have faced fear and they stay in it and they keep pushing. And that can be a spiritual leader or somebody in the back country doing things that have never been done before in action or adventure-based sports. And so when people constrict around the thought of being scared in the future, how do you help them?

Is this where mindfulness comes in for you? It is, exactly. And paradoxically, I would start with saying, okay, let's dive into it. So our reaction, the way our brains are set up is when something's unpleasant is to try to make it go away as quickly as possible. So you're talking about fight or flight, right? So if something's uncomfortable, we tend to flee. Well, what if we instead just totally get curious about what that sensation of fear feels like in the moment so that we can learn to see what is exactly driving us? us. And it's, and then do you take them more through worst case scenario? Okay. Stay with that. Now, what, what, what, what is next? What would happen next? Do you walk them all the way, like an elevator down into the worst case scenario and have them feel that? I would, so it depends on the person, but I would say making sure that we stay very,

very close to the actual experience of fear itself, and then use that elevator down cognitively or even from a thinking perspective to help bring up the memory and that felt sensation. But the critical piece here is the experiential component rather than the mental or the thinking component. Yeah. And are you using flooding or systematic desensitization as a model here or are you using something else? I think mindfulness is very much related to these things where there's an essential element of paying attention. But the piece that may be a little bit, well, you tell me if these are similar because I

haven't studied those that carefully. The key here is the attitudinal quality of the mind. So that's really what we're trying that contracted, unpleasant feeling of fear, for example, to a more expanded, even if it's expanding and not fully expanded, but an expanding quality where we naturally are drawn in more out of curiosity. Oh, what does fear actually feel like right now? So if you and I explored that together and well, how, how do we know what it feels like? We have to dive in. Okay. Okay. So, okay. So sorry, I'm, I'm, I'm getting excited too. Is that, so when you, so curiosity is your entry point into decreasing the responses,

either neurochemically or physiologically, decreasing the contraction responses that people have? Yes. Okay, so curiosity is like your key way in. And so as soon as they're feeling a flood of neurochemicals or physiology that is constricting them in some kind of way and impacting their psychology, that you, and psychology, a fancy word for their thinking that you're saying, Hey, stay, Hey, stay curious now. What is this like? And that curiosity

is almost like the anecdote. Yep. It takes us by the hand and pulls us in as we're trying to flee the scene. Okay. All right. Cool. Great. I love that thought. And then now let me, let me add a layer of complication is that for, for me, if I help people with, I think that that is an incredible process in a office setting or living room or like in a non-hostile environment. Now, when we take them into a rugged environment and they have to, or they die or they're injured or they let somebody else, they put somebody else in jeopardy by them not taking action, right? Or not acting swiftly enough or accurately enough. Curiosity gets in the way for me. And maybe you can, you can rattle my thought on this, but curiosity slows down the flight response or the freeze response,

but it doesn't necessarily keep them in command with that resolve to stay in it. And I'd love for you to rattle that thought a little bit. Yeah, I'm totally with you here. So this is about training the mind. And when we train our minds, there are several levels of speed with which the mind works. I knew you were going to go there. That's exactly – yeah. All right. Cool. So in training, for example, so a mood, let's take the glacial from a time perspective. Mood is really slow, right? I'm in a bad mood and it sticks around for a while. As compared to emotion. Right. So emotions faster. And then even faster than that is attention, right? We can direct our attention. So let's say I'm going to look to the left. I'm

going to look to the right. There's still about, you know, it takes a little bit of processing to say, I'm going to look, right? because we have to direct the awareness in that sense. Now, the fastest – so far, so good? Oh, I love where you're going. Okay. The fastest of them all is awareness itself. court and they're just seeing everything all at once and it just clicks, that's at the level of awareness. That's orders of magnitude. Don't take me literally here, but it's like orders of magnitude faster than attention itself because we have to direct our attention or our attention has

to get directed somewhere. So we're talking about awareness here. And these fight or flight responses happen more on that timeframe of awareness than, you know, they're somewhere between awareness and attention, but certainly much faster than these other things like emotion or things like that. So what we do with curiosity is train ourselves to not get bunched up in the emotion or anything that gets in the way of attentional deployment and even faster awareness itself. So that when we're in that, you know, if we're on that ski slope and there's an avalanche coming, we're not sitting there going, oh, isn't that interesting? Boy, I'm really curious what it's going to feel like to drown in a sea of snow.

No, we're out of the way. We're skiing our butt off to get down the mountain. Yeah, that's exactly it. So I think for a long time – I'm so glad we're speaking for the first time here because for a long time, mindfulness for me – and I've been studying – I don't think as long as you. It's been about 20 years that I've been studying. But for a long time, it was about stillness. It was about presence. It was about awareness, deep meaning, searching for insight. All of that is wonderful, but had very little to do with doing exceptionally well and to being maybe even world-class at performance. And then there was this click for me. And this is not just me alone. I'm sure there's hundreds of people or thousands of people that have the same research

or applied research thought is that it awareness is the entry point into being able to impact anything as a human being without awareness. We're, we're dead in the water, literally in some cases. So, and so is that where your fascination has started with awareness or is it with something else? Because you talked about relieving suffering. Yeah. Yeah. As one of your central tenants, you know, as a, as a interest. Well, those two go hand in hand. So awareness, I think of awareness in terms of not being biased by how we view the world. So in psychology, you know, positive and negative reinforcement, right? So we, we, that's, those are the basic tenets of associative learning or operant conditioning.

And that drives so much of our behavior throughout our lives, right? Because we see triggers, we're cued to act some way, and then we get rewarded, whether it's as simple as, you know, eating some chocolate and it tasting good to, you know, somebody cutting us off in traffic. And then, you know, we go ballistic and then learn to get rewarded by, you know, feeling good when we give them the universal sign of displeasure or something like that. So if we can see those processes in action, this is where awareness comes in, we can learn to change them. If we can't see them, like you say, we're dead in the water.

So I think awareness is the basis for both learning good habits, or quote-unquote good habits, but also letting go of habits that don't help us. And a lot of habits, a lot of these habits are self related in terms of like self doubt or fear or worry, whether it's, you know, performance in the, in the executive room or performance on the field. So did you, interesting that I think I heard you say that you let go of habits, not replace them with new habits, but let go of them. And you said something else that now I'm forgetting, I thought was striking. So maybe it'll come to me in a minute, but do you, for habit formation, it's not habit formation, it's letting go of habits is your approach.

Well, the approach is to see the habit, the reward from the habit very clearly. So let's use a concrete example. So in our Eat Right Now program, we specifically start with, it's basically like rubbing somebody's face in their behavior, in a kind way, obviously. But we're basically like, go ahead and eat those 12 cupcakes, right? And they're, you know, they're trying to change their relationship to stress eating. And they're looking at us saying, what? You know, I thought this, I thought this is about like not eating so much, but it's like the, so we bring in and say, just pay attention as you eat, just go for it. And what people discover is, you know, first cupcake tastes pretty good. Second cupcake, still pretty good. Third, not as good, and on and on and on. And by the sixth, if they're paying attention, they realize, oh, I'm not only oh, if you feel sad or bad or depressed, eat some cupcakes and you'll feel And when we pack all that together and ask ourselves,

what do I get from this? We more clearly see the reward. We take off those subjectively biased glasses. So awareness helps us see all of this, see what we're actually getting from the bad habits so that we naturally let go of them. Because we can't trust our brain to do it ourselves. Otherwise, we would. You know, it'd be simple, you know, like stop eating cupcakes. Okay, I'm done. Next. It doesn't work that way. And so early on, that's kind of what parents will do for us. If our parents are, have a model, let's say, of helping the child increase their awareness of their decision-making or their sensations. That would

be a great parent model in my mind. And then somehow, okay, so we move away from that model and then we're in the real world where, I don't know, as an adult and we're trying to monitor ourselves. How do you help people become more aware? Like, what is your tactical approach to applying the practices of mindfulness? How do you help people? Or what is yours? Yeah, I would say one thing that I've learned over the years is to find a specific pain point. I think that's really, really helpful. And by that, I mean something that's causing us suffering, okay? So, you know, there are tons of people that come in and they're like, oh, yeah, I was told that meditation is good for me or it's going to help my brain or this or that. And they try meditation for a little bit and then they get distracted or get busy with other things and they never stick with it. But if somebody is like, man, my life sucks, and this is the reason.

I stress eat all the time, and I'm gaining weight, and I'm getting diabetes. Then we can come to them and say, oh, it sounds like you've really got a pain point here. Maybe we can help with that. And they're super motivated to listen because something's causing them pain, which is the overeating, for example, or smoking or anxiety. There are many ways that we can approach this, but the suffering underlies all of these. simply pay attention to what they're doing in that moment. Like, what do you get from this? So having something very concrete is very helpful as a way to start. And then we can use that to help them train, I think of it as short moments many times. So if we can have a moment where we wake up to what just happened, right? Oh, I just ate three cupcakes. Oh, what did I get from that?

Well, my stomach hurts. Okay, now I've just learned something. Oh, eating three cupcakes, not that helpful. Okay? So that then fosters more awareness. Oh, well, I'm going to look out for this more often because now I've got the stomach ache of a pain point helps me get motivated to look. And this then can just start building on itself where we can see the habit loops more clearly. We can see these rewards more clearly. And then we get motivated to use mindfulness training and we can give them specific tools to do this, to ride out those urges to act when we're living or about to get sucked into an unhealthy habit. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down.

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that elevate your routine without complicating it, I'd love for you to check them out. Head to calderalab.com slash finding mastery and use the code finding mastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash finding mastery. Okay, so you challenge people to do a thousand seconds spread out throughout the day, as opposed to, hey, listen, sit for two minutes. Yeah, I think you've described this even when I've heard you describe your practice. Is that true? Yeah, yeah. But I'm having this flashback or flashbulb like, wait a minute, is he doing the same thing? Which is, I love that. Is that how you're doing it? Or are you saying, okay, let's just start with two minutes and then anchor up? And I feel the person out and I go one of two ways, either a thousand nanoseconds throughout the day or say, let's just start with one minute? Yeah, I think there are. I agree. I think there are, depending on the person, there are a thousand different ways, or it could be a thousand times in one day, but there are many, many different ways that we can specifically personalize just the simple act

of waking up for somebody, whether it's a thousand times a day or, you know, let's do it for a minute. And then with these short practices or short moments, we can then start to bring in longer practices that help people really start to see the more subtle aspects of experience that they might not have been able to see before. So this is where longer practice comes in. And, you know, I myself have, you know, And I myself, there were times going month-long retreat or even sit for several hours at a time to really dive into my actual experience at a very, very subtle level. But that's not something I'd recommend that somebody start with right off the bat. Okay. Do you have people pay attention to their

thoughts or pay attention to their sensations in their body? Like if you had to pick one, if we had to force you to pick one, which I know it's not really fair, but would you have them attend to their physiology or attend to their thoughts? Yeah, that is not fair. But I'll answer it anyway. I think we can draw a cue from, you know, there are these four foundations of mindfulness and the first foundation is actually the body. So I would say, and I, this isn't how I started, but now I'm a little bit wiser, a long way to go, but a little bit wiser. If we bring it back to this thing, you know, this continuum that you talked about this

contraction versus expansion that's a felt sensation in the body right and i would say body mind because they're really not separable but that contraction is something that we can notice in our experience that is often triggered by thoughts now thoughts can trigger this contraction or expansion but they are not required for this to happen. There can just be a felt experience of contraction that we haven't noticed that a thought necessarily triggers. Oh, whoa, whoa. Okay. I like it. I like it. So, do thoughts precede emotions? Well, I think of it as they're kind of cyclical or reciprocal. So thoughts can trigger emotions, which can trigger this contraction or expansion. And then that can trigger a somatic memory even, which then leads back and triggers another thought. So eventually it becomes automatic? Like if I smell a perfume, I'm not even aware of the thought because I didn't have a thought. I went straight to the contraction.

Yes. Is that right? Okay. If that perfume was associated with pain. Right. I don't want to let you off the hook. Is it thoughts or is it physiological sensations that you would direct people to to pay more attention to get a greater output? Yeah. So if I had to pick one, because I think both can be very helpful, but if I had to pick one, I would say the physical sensations. And then how do you get in your way? Like as a man, what is it? You've been on the path for a long time. You've been studying deeply. You've been working to have insight and wisdom through great awareness by staying curious. What is it that you as a person, how do you get in your own way?

Oh, man, how much time do we have? I would say, so in particular, one thing that I'm working with now is judgment. So kind of getting contracted around when somebody does something or says something and seeing, kind of getting, oh, I don't like that. So that, gets in my way and, you know, I get my own way through that contraction where I can't see all the possibilities or even see the, you know, the conditions that led to them doing that behavior. Or, you know, this can also be self judgment as well. I've got this challenge that I want to run by you. Okay. Okay, so we're moving down this path to be more grounded as humans, to be able to explore in the expansive whatever, in whatever domain that we're in, whether it's a loving relationship or operating in dangerous environments.

And sometimes loving relationships are dangerous. But in this journey that we're on, when was the last time as a grown man that you cried, that you were so moved either by pain or joy that you cried? I was a couple of days ago. Come on. Don't say that. Oh, sorry. What was I supposed to say? I was hoping you were going to make me normal and say, yeah, it's been a while. So I'll tell you why I'm asking the question is because like there's – am I getting cold or am I getting – or am I developing a greater perspective? And with that greater perspective, staying grounded more often.

And so, okay. So let's talk about what you cried about a couple of days ago? I was flying home. I was actually at a USA archery conference where we were talking to the coaches about mindfulness. And there was a movie. I don't remember what movie I was watching per se, but I noticed that I'm much more moved by human suffering. And so there was this, you know, just seeing, oh, there was, it was something about like the Holocaust or something like that. And it's like, wow, I was just really touched. And so just, you know, tears welled up

and, you know, I'm trying not to be obvious next to the person sitting next to me on the plane. Like, oh, nothing to see here. Just me crying. I did that on a flight with Fly Eddie. There was an Eddie movie where there was a young kid that was going for it and trying to do ski jumping. Oh, yeah. Yeah, that was a good one for me.

Okay, so that's an interesting point. You're trying to not be noticed. When was the last time you cried or let go with another person? With another person, I would say probably with my wife, I don't know, within the last month where there was something that really moved both of us. Okay. So you're, you're becoming more sensitive. That's what I would say more. I would say I feel more connected with the world. Yeah. And I didn't mean sensitive, like soft, but sensitive as an instrument, like more you're, you're calibrated more easily. Yeah. Okay. It doesn't help me, but thank you. I'm joking. I've been struggling with this a little bit lately. there's a single word.

Dive in. There's some like live, go for it. Yeah, I would say if I had to pick something, there was a – one of my PhD mentors used to say this phrase that I later found on a McDonald's bag for one of the Olympics, you know, the Olympian sayings, and it's go big or go home. That to me is a metaphor for life. Like we can either live it or we can live as zombies. And the go big or go home, I would, you know, I would totally ascribe to that. How are you going big right now in your life? Honestly, in every moment that I can. Because going big means getting out of my own way and going for it with everything.

So no fear, just really whatever it is, going for it. Whether it's professional, personal, on the mountain bike, whatever it is, going for it, whether it's professional, personal, on the mountain bike, whatever. For me, the going for it is really saying the things that are difficult to say. For me, that is usually what it comes down to as a social animal. And for many of the athletes, I think it sounds like you're spending time with some athletes as well, but the athletes, it's about doing the thing that's difficult to do. And I don't know if you can relate to that at all, the saying. Totally.

Because there's this very strong human element there. And honestly, I've found that it is difficult, yet it is more difficult not to do it. So the anti-reward of sugarcoating something or putting it off or kind of beating around the bush, I've just given up on that for better or for worse. But generally, it's for better. The reward in being straightforward, being transparent, being honest, but at the same time being kind as part of this. I find that it is so much more helpful for both sides than anything else. So you're wanting to get after it in life, to go big or go home, which requires immense stress, which also requires incredible recovery. And we're all trying to sort out that stress recovery model so that we can wake up the next day and rinse and repeat and have vibrance again. Can you

recall a specific time or an event when you felt you didn't have what it took? I didn't feel like I had what it took. That breaking moment, if you will. There's nothing specific that comes to mind like that's this, you know, gigantic thing, but there are many times, you know, where I notice it because, you know, the old habits die hard. You know, it's like, oh, you know, are we going to get this? Am I going to be able to write this grant proposal? Or am I going to be able to nail it on this, you know, on the single track? And, you know, but there's, yeah, there's nothing, you know, like, oh, that, that was

a quintessential failure moment. I can't think of one immediately. Okay. Do you think that that is, does that make sense to you that you can't think about your failures very easily? I'll call them failures, but like when you didn't have enough. And is that evidence it is I've learned that, you know, really what counts is failure. You know, I've really been questioning what failure is because everything we do, it's happened, right? So we can beat ourself up over it. We can review and regret, or we can, we can bow to as a teacher and say, oh, that, wow, that was crazy. What happened? What can I learn from this? And when I, you know, when I bow to it that way and say, oh, that, wow, that was crazy. What happened? What can I learn from this?

And when I, you know, when I bow to it that way and learn from it, it's harder to remember because it doesn't get laid down as this awful, terrible, horrible thing. Yeah, there you go. And then when you think about mistakes or when something didn't go according to plan or whatever it might've been, and you had some play in it, right? And I'm trying to get to an explanatory model that you use. Do you tend to internalize or externalize that thing? I would probably internalize it if I'm guessing what you mean by that. Yeah. So meaning that, let's say, I don't know, there's a car crash, right? And would you, do you tend to, and you're in it, do you tend to explain it that you were having a lapse of attention or that driver over there did something stupid? And if I don't really know what actually happened?

Yeah. It could be either. So if I had a lapse of attention, it would be like, oh man, I totally bonked this one. Wow. Okay. Don't do that again. Yeah. More introspective that way.

Okay. All right. And then when you have challenges inside of your inner dialogue and you're struggling with that inner judgmental piece that you mentioned earlier, how do you get rid of it? How do you free yourself from it? How do you move through it or pass it? What is your tactic or your technique? Yeah, you know, this has been an interesting process for me. And it doesn't come up that much anymore as a, I'm much better, for better or worse, at judging others than myself now. And I think some of it is because I've seen how painful it is to judge myself and how it doesn't help anything.

It's like I'm wallowing there, crying over spilled milk, when in reality I could be looking and learning from what happened. And so a lot of the self-judgment has shifted because it just, my brain sees so clearly that it's wasted energy and it shifts that energy right into, oh, wow, let's take some notes and not do that again. And so that, I'm trying to remember what that process was because it was probably relatively gradual. I don't, you know, it's not like I woke up one day and I was like, okay, I'm done with self-judgment. And not to say that the thoughts don't come up, but they don't stick around very long. And I think some of it comes back to the curiosity piece where it's like, oh, wow, that was crazy. Boy, that was stupid. Wow, I can't believe I did that. And then I'm already smiling because it's like, wow, that's what my crazy brain just thought was a good idea.

But at that moment, there's an openness. There's an expansive quality, which makes it available for me to learn from it. When we're contracted, we don't learn. When we're expansive, we do. Here's an example. My wife was teaching me how to skate ski a couple of years ago. And I was noticing that I'd learned to classically ski. And so I could, you know, do classical cross country skiing pretty well, but skate skiing was a whole new beast

for me. And I was starting, you know, she was teaching me and I was noticing that I was getting contracted. I was kind of getting caught up in like, Oh, I'm not doing this. And she's kicking my butt. And then I noticed it and I was like, Oh, well, what if I divert that energy into really focusing on what it is that's causing me to not catch my edges so that I can push off well? And then suddenly it was a fascinating game to just watch my brain at work as it was just learning, learn, learn, learn, learn, learn, learn, learn. And it was just this rapid process of, oh, wow, oh, wow, oh to oh you suck oh you suck oh you suck oh you suck yeah yeah yeah i think that that so and again it was curiosity so it was awareness first and then your entry into that is curiosity like what let me watch what i'm doing instead of what the hell am i doing yeah let me watch what i'm doing yeah yeah and even the way you say that, like, what the hell am I doing feels contracted, right?

As compared to, oh, wow. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And then what is your ideal – do you compete? Are you competitive at all? I try not to anymore. Yeah. Interesting.

Yeah. Keep going. Well, I played sports all through high school and then did a little bit of competitive sport in college, but then basically started learning that all the extra that came from the competition, like the nervousness and the, Oh, am I going to win was it's like, well, why do I care if I win? Cause I can, like, I just love to do this and it's, and the friendly competition is so much more fun than the, Oh yeah, I just schooled that guy competition. It becomes more of a, you know, collaborative thing, even with competitors than a, you know, I got to kick this guy's butt thing. So I was talking to an athlete in the locker room the other day, and we're having this conversation about winning and losing.

And he says, and he looks at me matter-of-factly, and he's a large human being. And he says, listen, it's all about winning. I don't, that's it. It's just about winning. I hate losing. I don't like how it feels. And if I don't win, I'm in trouble. And he wasn't saying like suicidal or anything, but like that, that's what it's about for me. And so how would you have responded to that question or that statement? So I would start by unpacking what the – like what does it feel like to win? What does it feel like to lose? And what are the – so where are our boundaries here?

Where are our edges? And what is it about that mindset that says I have to – I must or I want to win? And then start to unpack, well, what's it like when you just play sport for fun? Right. So that he could, he or she could, I'm guessing this is a guy, right? So he could see much more clearly the difference between the, I must, which is, has a contracted quality to it to, oh, wow, you know, let me just have fun and play. And then I would, so I would start there and make sure you could see the clear difference between those. And then I would say, well, when do you play better? Is it when you're the, Oh God, I have to

win or I'm just out there having fun. Right? Yeah, that's cool. So you would get, let me see if I get the model, right? You would say, okay. And then you would act on your curiosity and you would get some edges. What is it like in both, in both scenarios? And then you would dive one layer underneath of that and ask about the, like what it feels like when, when they're approaching either one of those failure or winning or whatever? Did I get that step right? Yeah, because wanting to win and not wanting to lose both share the word wanting. Got it.

Okay. So then you hone in on that want or the must, if you will. Yeah. Okay. And then you flip it on its head and say, when are you at your best? And then that leads somebody down the path to say, well, duh, it is more expansive, to use the language here. And it is more a curious approach and a freed expression as opposed to this tense and tight expression. Exactly.

Yeah, there you go. Okay, cool. Okay, so can we spend just a few minutes on habits? And man, I think habits are so important. And I'd love some takeaways, some insights, either science and or applied on how to help people, myself first, if you don't mind, to increase the process or efficiency of developing new habits. Happy to. Okay. So I don't know where to start with you because it feels like it's this large conversation. So if you could guide me in a starting place, I would love it.

Sure. So we've already talked a little bit about how bad habits, for example, or unhealthy habits are formed, right? So you need to know the basic building blocks, trigger, behavior, reward, okay? So if we eat cupcakes or we see cupcakes, that's the trigger. We eat cupcakes, that's the behavior. And the reward is we feel a little bit better when we're feeling down. That's how the bad habit gets formed. So the first step is really being able to see that clearly, right? So that's a bad habit. Let's use the example or an unhealthy habit. Let's use the example of learning a new good habit. So I talked about learning to skate were, right? So the reward is I get a nice glide from it and I glide farther as compared to falling on my butt, which happened plenty when I was starting out. So good habit, you know, healthy habit, bad habit. Okay. So understanding the process is the first

step. And then the second step would be really unpacking, you know, the rewards. What do I get from this? And we talked about that a little bit already as well. Oh, three cupcakes, stomachache. So that's the clear reward. Or a nice plant and shift as I rotate my hip in. Nice push-off, good glide. There's the reward for learning to skate ski. Okay?

So seeing how the habit's formed, seeing the rewards clearly, because the reward feeds back in guides behavior. That's the really critical piece of it, which we often ignore. We often focus on the behavior. We say, just don't do that. Okay? don't do that. Okay. Now we, we can only say, just don't do that until our prefrontal cortex, which is the part of the brain that's, that's involved here, you know, gets tired. You've probably heard the phrase halt. Have you heard that one? Hang hungry, angry, lonely, tired. So those are the just exemplars of when our prefrontal cortex goes offline.

So basically when we're stressed out, the prefrontal cortex doesn't work. So anytime we're telling ourselves, don't do this behavior, it's not going to work because that part of the brain has gone to sleep. So we can't really focus on the behavior. It's more important to focus on the reward. And this is even what B.F. Skinner talked about when he was doing his animal research on operant conditioning. It's really the reward that guides behavior. So that's the first piece. And then the second piece is to dive in. And so if we're trying to change an unhealthy behavior, we just keep going with the eating example or pick an example, if there's a better one. So with eating, we can... Oh, you know what, Judsonson what if we did building mindfulness as a building yeah building the healthy habit of mindfulness great so let's let's finish with the eating one as a bad or

unhealthy habit and then we'll move into the healthy one of building mindfulness okay so we can learn to well this actually trips right into that so if the trigger is stress let's say the behavior is eat cupcakes and the reward is feel a little bit better, we can take that same trigger, stress. The behavior, we get curious, we turn toward it, we get really interested in what the sensations in our body feel like when we are reaching for a cupcake. What does that urge feel like? You know, tightness, tension, restlessness, mouthwatering. Suddenly we're diving in and that reward shifts. It flips on its head from getting some excited, even contracted dopaminergic feeling of, oh, you know, oh, I just ate a cupcake.

There's this joy that comes literally with letting go, because we're not caught up in that feeling of stress or that craving by observing it. So you're moving from pleasure to be the reward to joy or happiness, right? Yeah, I would say a different type of pleasure. Yeah, okay. Okay, so it's still temporary. Is that right? In that moment. In that moment, okay. And we're not trying to hold on to the joy. That's really critical as well. Okay. So trigger, behavior, and reward. So become aware of the trigger. This is for the building of the healthy mindfulness or whatever. Be aware of the trigger of stress. So it's still a negative trigger. There's nothing you wouldn't associate it with.

After I brush my teeth, which is a neutral event, then I sit and take three breaths. Yeah. I think there are many ways to build the habit of mindfulness. And we can take, this is just an example of a negative trigger, but we can certainly find neutral triggers as well. Okay, okay. Like every time I go to brush my teeth, I could try to remember, oh, let's pay attention as I brush my teeth. But importantly, if we can see the reward that comes from paying attention, that reward will feed back and drive the behavior more so that we'll remember, oh, when I brush my teeth and I pay attention, it's more interesting and exciting than trying to check my emails on my cell phone or watch something or something like that. Got it. Okay. Totally got it. And then on that reward trigger habits or reward, I'm sorry, trigger behavior. How long, how long does it take? And I've

read some research that's like, you know, or not even research, but based on research that it's 40 some days, I've read other stuff that says, no, it takes one intense cycle, one intense trigger. This is PTSD, one behavior, and then this incredible response and you have a habit. And where, where are you going to land on that conversation? Yeah, I think it's a continuum. So really, the way you're describing the PTSD is single trial learning. But the critical piece there is that every time that memory is relived with PTSD, it gets layered upon as like, oh, that's really bad. So PTSD can, it can form in a single instant where there's a single event, but that event, how we relate to it in the future, how we relate to that

memory is really critical for whether it gets perpetuated and kind of solidified or whether we let go of it. So there can be a single trial that can lead, you know, lead to a quote unquote, the beginning of a habit, but it's like wet cement at that point. Okay. Okay. And that's why it's so hard. That's why those are so difficult. Yeah. Yeah. But there are other ones where it depends on, basically it depends on the reward, how strong the reward is, how quickly we learn things and also how quickly we can unlearn them. Do you think that it would be important to give people – that they could actually create a trigger like brushing your teeth? Like that becomes the trigger for the new behavior? Yes.

I think having – finding triggers that we can rely on throughout the day can be helpful. There's a caveat to that, that we become habituated to triggers. So I think of it as if we can tap into the reward, whenever we happen to drop in and we're really, truly present, right? So if you and I are truly present in this conversation, we can reflect on that afterwards. What did that feel like, right? There's this joy that comes with being totally locked into a conversation. Anytime we're totally present and we look at that reward itself, that can trigger the mind to say, oh, we should do that again. Not necessarily looking for a specific trigger, but also we could be linking that to a specific trigger as well.

Okay. How about this phrase? After I blank, I will blank. So after I trigger, I will behavior. And then the reward will be the reward, hopefully. And then we can back that reward up, intensify the experience of that reward by contemplating about it later in the afternoon. But what about that phrase, after I blank trigger, fill in the word trigger, I will blank fill in the word behavior. Does that sound mechanically correct to you? I think so. So if we play that out, let's just take something very simple. After I yell at somebody, then I will – the behavior would be I'll reflect on what I got from that. Did it help the situation? And then the reward there would be even that retrospective awareness of, oh, that was painful.

But let me reevaluate that next time I'm about to yell at that person. But let's take something even more in the moment example. I'm just trying to think of something. So after I am stressed – or let's say – can you think of one? Because I'm also – I can think of a couple, but about like, uh, after I get to my desk at work, I will take three breaths. I know I used that earlier, but yeah, yeah, I will, I will, um, have one thought of gratitude. Yeah. I will have one thought of gratitude. Yeah. Great. So after I sit down on my desk, I'll have a thought of gratitude and importantly, I'll notice what that feels gratitude. And importantly, I'll notice what

that feels like. And that is the reward? Or is that the behavior? Is the awareness of the feeling the behavior? The behavior, I would say, is that thought of gratitude. Okay. And then the reward is notice the sensation of that trigger and behavior. Well, you tell me, when you have a thought of gratitude, what does it feel like in your experience, contracted or expanding? Well, you know the answer. That's the reward to tap into. That's the reward. Okay. What if, now I don't want to complicate things, but now I'm thinking about internal reward and external reward. What if the external reward was, I don't know, you kept a log or somebody,

you told somebody and they kept a log and there was, you know, like a competitive chart. Would that be sending people down the wrong path? Or is external reward a way to get to the internal reward? It can be a way to point us in the right direction, but eventually it has to shift over to internal. So we're moving from extrinsic motivation. If I do this, then this happens. It's an if X, then Y. Moving into if X, the Y has to be internal. And the expanded quality of experience isn't something that we get externally. Okay. So when I'm helping people create new habits, whatever it might be, many people that are primarily externally motivated,

then I kind of pull on that lever first and then slide in, like, how'd that feel? What was that like? And then is that, would you say, okay, Mike? That is very skillful because you got to use what you got and that's your raw material. Yeah. So what I was trying to, yes, thank you. And what I'm trying to figure out is like, am I doing a disservice by starting with the external to get to the internal? Or should I just, am I wasting time? Should I just go straight to the internal? Well, you've probably played with this already. And so you may already know the answer. But for some people, having that external is tapping into their worldview. And you've got to start, you know, if somebody speaks French and you don't speak French, you're not going to do a good job of communicating. But so if you learn French,

you can communicate. And the same thing is true. If they speak external reward, then you go to external reward language and, or, you know what I mean? The analogy there is, and then you can say, okay, we're speaking the same language. Now try this. I love it. You know, on that note, this is a kind of a, well, it's a second cousin to what we're talking about is some, some performers, whether they're business or athletes or whatever, you can't pay them. Isn't that crazy? Cause as soon as you pay them, they stop working and it screws up their whole model. Like you've got to always have more external out there for them. And it's painful.

It's painful to watch. But you've got to keep the carrot out there of more money or fame or attention. And it's this awful cycle that people will catch themselves into. Yep. That's in the early Buddhist psychology. They call this samsara or endless wandering because our minds become habituated to, you know, if it's $10, then it's got to be 12 and then 50 and then 100. Whereas intrinsic motivation, that joie de vivre, that's priceless, dude. I love that. Okay.

Judson, let's you and I do this again more often. I loved it. Thank you for the time today. And then one last question. How do you articulate or define or think about mastery? Flow. Keep going. Keep going. I thought you were going to let me get away with one word. Keep going. I love the one word. Yeah. So master, and that's too simplistic anyway. So thank you for pushing me on this. Really, you know, again, I think Jigsaw Mahe was really brilliant in the way that he talked about the conditions that create flow, where you have to find something that you're very

good at, but you're not super, you know, you're not so good at it that you become, your mind starts wandering when you're doing it. So there's this sweet spot of, of having, you know, you're not so good at it that you become, your mind starts wandering when you're doing it. So there's this sweet spot of, of having, you know, having your edge. And with that, I think mastery comes where we've gone over, where we've gone over the edge, where we've totally, we don't have to mentally train to do something. So we were talking about the slow speed of training, right? Moods, emotions, curiosity even is slow, right? That's the training phase. But when we're at the level of awareness where we're not consciously doing something, but we're just part of the whole process, that's when we know we've mastered something because we're not doing anything.

It's just doing itself and doing us in the process. God, I've so enjoyed this conversation. Like seriously, like it's, it's so nuanced. I hope, I hope that people listening are appreciating how nuanced and how deep and what a sophisticated and curious approach you have to your craft. So Judson, thank you. Oh, my pleasure. Thank you. It's been a real joy. Yeah, for sure. Okay. So where can we find out more about what you're doing? I've written about a lot of this stuff and even the neuroscience behind what it's like to get caught up versus letting go in a book called The Craving Mind. So that's something where people

can really dive in more deeply. We've developed some digital therapeutic programs where people can get, you know, really dive in more deeply. We've developed some digital therapeutic programs where people can learn using the pain points of, you know, stress and emotional eating, for example. There's a website, goeatrightnow.com for the Eat Right Now program. And there's even one for smoking called Craving to Quit. So people can really see and play with those therapeutic modalities there. I have a website, judsonbrewer.com, that kind of links both to our, you know, all these things as well as to my educational site at the Center for Mindfulness at UMass Medical School. So that's kind of a central clearinghouse for all of these as well. And then one habit that you would hope people would build or you would want to encourage people to build in their life? Kindness.

Love that. Okay, so thank you again. And for everyone listening, we appreciate you. We appreciate you being part of the Finding Mastery community. If you're not on it yet, punch over to findingmastery.net forward slash community. You can find this website or this post there as well as on iTunes under Finding Mastery. And then Judson, do you have any social media handles that we can talk about? Well, I don't use it very much, but my Twitter handle is Judson at Judson Brewer. And people can find me on

Facebook as well. But I don't use social media as much. So they can certainly find me, but I'm not very active. Perfect. So you can hit me at Michael Gervais, G-E-R-V-A-I-S. And then our Instagram is at Finding Mastery. Okay. Thank you, everyone. Punch over to iTunes. Appreciate all the work and on to continued success for everyone. Judson, thank you again. Thank you. All right.

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