Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Dr. Stephen Rollnick, Motivational Interviewing Co-Founder

Episode Date: March 13, 2019

This week’s conversation is with Stephen Rollnick, the co-founder of Motivational Interviewing.The Motivational Interviewing style, strategies and skills have been used to address a wide range of challenges, including those very tough conversations in which there seems little hope of making progress in helping people.I doubt there’s many of us that enjoy having these difficult conversations, but what if there was a better approach to getting the outcome you wanted in these moments?Stephen has found that when conversations about change go poorly, it’s because the more you try to insert information and advice into others, the more they tend to back off and resist.Understanding optimal ways to communicate with one another is at the heart of this conversationMotivational Interviewing can be used to enhance your ability to listen with skill in any situation, and to help people, young and old, to adapt and to develop their potential.Its use has spread into health care, criminal justice, education and most recently into sport.I hope it makes a difference for you._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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it's far better to basically to create a conversation in which they do it for themselves. Okay. And in order to create a conversation in which they do it for themselves okay and in order to create that conversation you need to come alongside someone and you need to view them as a person who's got the motivation inside them and the strengths inside them all right welcome back or welcome to the Finding Mastery podcast. I'm Michael Gervais and by trade and training, I'm a sport and performance psychologist, as well as the co-founder of Compete to Create. And the whole idea behind these conversations is to learn from

people who are on the path of mastery to better understand how the extraordinaries think and do, how they organize their inner world, how they organize their outer life, to be able to experience and understand the nuances, both of mastery of self and mastery of craft. Finding Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Solutions. In any high-performing environment that I've been part of, from elite teams to executive boardrooms, one thing holds true. Meaningful relationships are at the center of sustained success. And building those relationships, it takes more than effort.

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He's the co-founder of Motivational Interviewing. Motivational Interviewing is a psychological construct that's designed to help people explore ways to create change. The main tenant is the client owns his or her solutions, but the motivational interviewing approach helps to decrease ambivalence within a person and at the same time, increase the drivers that sit underneath making change. And the strategy, of course, you're going to know that I love this. It's nonjudgmental, non-confrontational, non-adversarial. And at the same time, it's very hands-on about helping somebody move toward their desired goal of making change.

It's one way to really create space within very challenging and difficult conversations. And Stevens found that when conversations about change go poorly, it's typically because the more you try to insert information or advice into others, the more they tend to back off and resist. And I bet you can relate to that. Understanding optimal ways to communicate with one another is at the heart of this conversation. And the strategies underneath motivational interviewing can be used to enhance your ability to listen with skill in any situation. And that listening pays dividends in both relationships and change-making. And it's really designed to help people, young and old, to adapt and develop their potential. I hope this conversation makes

a difference for you. And with that, let's jump right into the conversation with Dr. Stephen Rolnick. Stephen, how are you? No, I'm doing fine, Mike. I'm speaking to you from Cardiff, Wales in the UK. So it's dark and wintry here and no doubt otherwise where you are, but it's really genuinely a delight to connect with you. I've been influenced by your work for a long time. And this is an absolute treat for me to be able to have this conversation with you.

Because, you know, from the most, I don't know, basic standpoint, your methodology to highlight the genius of others and the solutions that people hold, and the regard in your methods to help people explore their truth, if you will, and a set of practices that wrap around the relationship between two people to help amplify that genius within. It's been a game changer for me. I think I was first introduced to your approach in, it was like late nineties, early nineties, mid 90s, maybe somewhere in there in the 90s. And it was right on the heels of a deep dive with Carl Rogers. And some people don't know maybe who Carl Rogers is, Roger in therapy, and that the person holds their answers. And so we should have regard for the person's journey, who they are.

And so with that, I'd love to start this conversation by me just saying, hey, you've been a game changer in my life and craft. And I can't wait to understand where you came from. So help me understand what it was like early days for you. Yeah, and you're describing some early days in the early 90s. And it, you know, it was in, it was in this, actually, for me, it started in the 70s, Mike. And at that time, I was immersed in the world of clinical psychology and quite with quite a specialist focus, in that case, on addiction treatment, and really what the journey has been like for me has been one of realizing that what was going on in these conversations in addiction treatment were governed by the same principles and problems and challenges as what goes on in other conversations outside. So what started specialist has now become very broad and general. And it's funny, Mike, you know, the more the decades unroll, the simpler things seem to me. But in those days, we were enmeshed in this very difficult world of helping people change addictions. And it seemed very complicated at the time, and very troubling as well. And it was two experiences for me, I don't know if you want me to clarify or capture what they were,

but there were two experiences that changed everything for me. Oh, yeah. I mean, come on. And you know, so 1000%, I want to know what those are like, it's like a massive cliffhanger. But and I also want to, before you get to those, and I know that it's a little bit out of order, I want to get a picture of what, what it was like growing up, like, was it open hills? Was it desert lands? Was it middle socioeconomic status? Did you have everything you ever wanted? Was it lower, you know, means? Like, well, I want to get a picture of that context first, if you don't mind. That context is really important. No, this was in Cape Town, South Africa for me. So I was living in an environment fairly similar to California in that sense, in that it was very

privileged and very disturbed. In other words, I grew up in an environment in which my parents had a very strong moral compass in the years of apartheid pre-Mandela. And I was really brought up to leave the country as soon as possible, So disturbed were they by what was happening in South Africa. But the kind of topography was insanely beautiful. And I grew up surfing. I was a very keen surfer, mountain climbing. So I was a very active and positive individual, but in this very disturbed sociocultural context. You couldn't imagine

anything more toxic. And yeah, and Mike, you know, so this first experience for me was there I am, a young nurse in my first job, training to be a nurse in my first job. And I'm in a psychiatric hospital for people with addiction. And the treatment environment was such that the folk who worked in it believed they knew what was best for other people. And so the coffee room conversations were about this person's not motivated. In fact, most of the patients were judged as being poorly motivated. And what I noticed was that the harder I tried to persuade these alcoholics in this case to change, the more kickback I got. And in my young spirit, I had an experience that was truly devastating, which was that I was running a group for young alcoholics. And this young man who said nothing in the in the group meeting, but he was he was regarded as notoriously unmotivated. He

walked out and he shot his wife and then killed himself in front of two little kids. Now, okay, Mike, that's, I know, that's incredibly dramatic, and whatever I say now is with the benefits of hindsight. But when I then – I then had to flee South Africa in a hurry for political reasons. Why did you have to flee for political reasons? Oh, Mike, I was conscripted into the army and absconded. Oh. But that's not related to this incident. No.

Unrelated to this incident. Unrelated. Okay. So wind me back to what happened with you and your patient. I used to see him in the corridors in the inpatient unit, and he was quite a silent fellow. And he was regarded by the staff as very difficult and unmotivated and resistant to treatment. That was the sort of judgment that was heaped upon him routinely and regularly in his inpatient stay. But in the evenings, he used to come to these twice weekly group meetings that I ran. And I never had any problem with him, but he just didn't

say much. And in many senses, he looking back, he conformed to the stereotype of someone with a serious substance use problem. He didn't be Looking back, he was no different. But the shock was unimaginable. Oh, at the moment you heard that he did that, what happened for you? Can you take me back to that moment? I guess I panicked. There was part of me that thought I was going to get into trouble. I remember going home to my parents and telling them the story and they were horrified. And

I was scared and I was really shocked. There was a nun working in the treatment unit who befriended me. And funnily enough, 30 years later, I went back to Cape Town and bumped into her and I was able to thank her for being so supportive to me. And it was made clear to me that it wasn't my fault. I mean, I was just naive to think it was. It wasn't. But yeah, so that's what happened, Mike. And so racial tensions are at a global height at that point. And was there no racial tension. But I guess the whole incident occurred in a culture that was dangerous and violent anyway. This was 1977, at the peak of the Soweto riots and the resistance to apartheid. So it was a beautiful, beautiful city and country in quite a toxic state okay and then so you have a moment of panic and when you panic is that a physiological

description that you're talking about or is it more cognitive and and is that the impetus that changed you one of the One of the two stories that influenced your life? Mike, you know, I think I was emotionally really disturbed by this. I don't think it was cognitive. Along with the other dramas that were being played out in the society and in my life, this was just part of a sense of not feeling comfortable in my own skin. I think if you'd met me at the time, you would have probably said, he's a really nice, enthusiastic guy with a lot of energy and stuff, but he's kind of uptight and not comfortable in his own skin. And I was 23 at the time. And I knew I would have to leave the country. I got sucked into the military and

into preparation for a particular war. And I absconded on duty. So, you know, very rapidly, I found myself at London Heathrow Airport, exiled and unable to return. And so that was the context in which I eventually found a training job in clinical psychology. And in one sense, you would have thought, well, this guy's doing fine. He's managed to land on his feet here. He's managed to get residence in the country because I couldn't go back to my own country. So there you go, man. And then I started working in the addictions field. And one day, my boss at the time said to me, look, I'm an editor of a little journal. And here's a paper called Motivational Interview. Do you want to review it for me?

And that was an aha moment in which the author of this paper, William Miller, suggested that perhaps the resistance and lack of motivation in these people had something to do with the way they were spoken to. And that the more you push someone into change, the more you're going to generate kickback. Say that again. What's another way of saying that I should say? The harder you try and persuade someone to change, the more likely you are to get kickback. Does that make sense? Yeah. A thousand percent.

I mean, I've seen it over and over and over again. And I remember at a young, as a young psychologist, somebody said to me that was kind of old and salty and been around the block a long time, probably 40 years in the field, something like that. And says, and she says, you know, I'm so sick of this field. And you know, she's just having a day, right? She goes, I see people all day long and it's so obvious what they're doing. It is so obvious from a distance what they're doing. And they just don't listen. I tell them exactly what to do and they don't listen. And I'm exhausted by it. And I thought, oh my God. Okay. Well, telling people what to do doesn't sound like it works. And so, right. Part of the

same idea, I think it's your, the nature of your approach is exploratory. Now, what I want to know really is why did you find, because you've amplified this approach in a meaningful way for millions of people. Like why, why this approach? Because it's like one plus one happened and it was far greater than two, meaning you plus this approach and it's just not something that, I don't know, is small. Like it made something really big. So what was it about this approach that you were attracted by or two? I think it was this, Mike, that it's very important when someone's struggling to be with them and to empathize, which is the shoulders of Rogers that you and I have both stood on as practitioners. But there was something else to this. It wasn't just being with someone and empathizing with them. It was, if you like, empathy with a purpose and that it was possible to both be very focused on this person and their well-being on the one hand and also pointing them in the direction of change on the other. And it's that more directional and purpose feels that way to me, Mike,

that we don't want to live in a polarized world where you either tell someone what to do on the one hand, using a directing kind of style, or just empathize with them and use a following style. That this was a space in the middle. And probably the best word or metaphor I can use here is the word guide. And in one sense, I've realized that motivational interviewing is really very simply a form of guiding that is familiar to all of us through our work as coaches, as parents, as teachers. And it's based upon that style. And it specifies some additional skills, particularly the use of empathic listening, that appears to make all the difference. Gee, I don't know whether that 30 years of my life summarized in a few sentences,

and I don't know if that makes any sense to you. Yeah, and you've made it simple. To your point earlier that with the decades passing, you're seeing things more simply, and I think it's really important that we get into, you know, the kind of four tenets of motivational interviewing. But before we go there is this concept of empathy. Okay. It's not lost on me the connection between South Africa, the incredible injustice that was taking place for a long time, and your attraction to empathy as a solution. So in many ways, empathy was lost or it was not present in the institutional way of South Africa during that time. And then here you are standing on the shoulders of one of the most empathetic founders

in our field, and you're amplifying the importance for empathy. So can you talk about that connection? And I think that, I think I want to ask about mom and dad, but I don't want to really taint, you know, where you're going to naturally take the importance of empathy and how you learned it. Not at all. Not at all. Take me where you like, Mike. I mean, I'm enjoying this. No one's ever asked me such personal questions in public, and I'm delighted to explore them with you. Look, man, you're right. It's not difficult to look back at something like apartheid South Africa and realize that people weren't listening to each other. And indeed, after the transition with Mandela and the transition to democracy, there was the most wonderful illustration of the value of empathy in something called the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, where they basically forgave people who'd murdered other people as long as they came, if you like, and told their story. And they told their story in front of other people who tried to listen and empathize. But that process of reconciliation, you know, took place

15, 20 years after I was there. But yes, there was, you know, toxic environments lack empathy. And I guess we can witness this in many parts of the world right now, where people are shouting at each other, solving problems for other people, and basically not listening. Now, I grew up in a family that was with sensitive souls in it. My mother lost half of her family in Eastern Europe and Russia and was in exile from Russia herself. And here I grew up in an environment where my parents could could see quite clearly in front of them the most toxic, oppressive, bitter and violent oppression of other people. of the importance of crossing boundaries, of meeting black people, which was forbidden when I was a kid, of meeting black people, of trying to treat them the same as us and trying to cross barriers. So I suppose the seeds for capacity to empathize were there, but I wouldn't like to set

myself up as some kind of incredibly wise, empathic being, because it was a struggle. It really was a struggle. It sounds to me like mom had somehow, maybe it was mom and dad together, but the early days, you watched risk-takers. You watched people that came from suffering and pain and said, no, no, no, we're not repeating that. We're going to do things differently, even though it's counterculture, even though it's against the law um and so yeah so you learned and your parents modeled risk taking and courage for moral moral reasons right not necessarily for financial reasons but more ethical and moral

reasons is that yeah okay and then so what what was that like growing up? Do you have brothers and sisters? I've got a brother, slightly older brother, but it was both a wonderful childhood. We had the wonderful mountain and forests all around us. And Cape Town is a stunningly beautiful city on the one hand. And on the other hand, there was the heat of toxic political atmosphere. And my mother was quite involved in resisting apartheid and was friends with people who went to jail. And I would say both my parents managed to stay just the safe line of jail. They just managed. And I had experience as a child of them nearly getting into some very serious trouble. So risk-taking with a strong moral compass was

there for me. And indeed, when I absconded on duty in the military, I couldn't have taken a bigger risk. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentus. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday, what you put in your body matters. And that's why I trust Momentus. From the moment I sat down with Jeff Byers, their co-founder and CEO, I could tell this was not your average supplement company. And I was immediately drawn to their mission, helping people achieve performance for

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Felix Gray is offering all Finding Mastery listeners 20% off. Just head to felixgray.com and use the code findingmastery20 at checkout. Again, that's Felix Gray. You spell it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com and use the code FindingMastery20 at FelixGray.com for 20% off. So was there something that you remember mom saying to you? Obviously there's lots of probably actions, but was there an experience or a memory that really shaped your understanding of congruence, of courage, of risk-taking, of vulnerability? Was there something in that vein, if you will, that you can remember? Look, I failed my way right through school.

I was a hopeless student. And she was a writer. And she wrote short stories for the New Yorker magazine in the 50s and 60s. So she became quite a she was quite a talented writer. But she always used to say to me, be creative, stupid. And that stayed with me ever since. What does that mean? Be creative, stupid.

In other words, it was a way way of saying don't be a stupid ass be creative right wait does that mean she was calling you stupid or is she saying a way of speaking in her culture you know she was russian with a way of speaking right be creative stupid idiot you know this is not about just absorbing facts. Life and traveling through life is about being creative. And that has stayed with me ever since. How about your relationship with your mom? Did she model empathy? And did you have that?

Because what I just heard was like hard and it conjures up that that russian care you know and i don't know if that's a stereotype that i'm jumping off of from way back but like i'm wondering if mom provided empathy and that's another entryway into why empathy is so important to you and or maybe you didn't get it you got something very different it wasn't um the tradition She was a wonderfully warm and gentle and generous person. And she just had this way of speaking. And so I was a very lucky guy. I grew up with a wonderfully warm mother and kind father. So in that sense, I had a reasonably stable foundation.

How do your closest friends or how do your students or how does your brother describe you? They'd probably say I was an energetic and creative guy who's got a sort of creative restlessness about him

and who's very warm and establishes I establish very close friendships with people um but I've got a restless spirit and uh it has been channeled I guess into as far as my work goes and motivational interviewing goes it gets channeled into looking for new new boundaries to to break through and new ways of thinking about things. And in a sense, I feel a bit like an anthropologist or a psychoanthropologist in the sense that motivational interviewing came from within the world of practice, not from theory or expert-driven theory. It came from within practice. And in a sense, I feel a bit like a

psychoanthropologist in that out there, despite the toxic lack of empathy in so many settings at the moment, out there are the most wonderful examples of human beings finding better ways to help each other change, much more effective ways to help each other change, much more effective ways to help each other change. So in that sense, I feel like I'm just translating what is already out there. I'm trying to merge what I've learned through motivational interviewing with the natural healing processes that I observe around me. And I've had some wonderful experiences with this, with that idea. do you have a fundamental belief and this is like a pretty much a closed-ended question but I don't mean it to be but do you have a fundamental

belief that humans are trying to do good and trying to help and grow and or do you see it like I want to know the nature of how you understand the human experience? No, I don't I Either you could say sit on the fence or see it both ways. I see this most incredible Energy for healing and goodness in people and I also see their terrible vulnerability to dysfunction and toxic Relationships and they that's it side by side So that is in Pakistan three

weeks ago, because a woman offered a drink apparently to somebody else, a peasant in a field, and this was considered blasphemous because she was Christian and the other person was Muslim, she was sentenced to death. Now, I don't want to talk about the regime or anything like that in Pakistan, but what I do want to say is that in response to her being taken off death row after about eight years, the country came to a standstill with protests about this. And roads were closed, schools were closed for quite a few days in outrage about this woman not being put to death. So I think there's human beings have this incredible vulnerability to getting sucked into these vortices of hate. So, no, I can't say I genuinely believe that all human beings are basically good.

I think we're very vulnerable. Okay, so are you taking the philosophical position about tabula rasa, the blank slate and then messages shape the actions of humans? I guess so, yeah. Yeah, so inherently good, inherently evil, or blank slate. It sounds like you're saying, no, I think we're blank slate. And because the word vulnerable is not lost on me, that we're vulnerable to, you didn't use the word evil, but hate, let's say. So, yeah, okay, super interesting.

Do you have a spiritual framework that you work from? Not really, no. No, I can't say as you've you were influenced at some point in your life you know you've you've heard of the the religion and spiritual practices and did you just decide like no i want to be a scientist or or maybe you didn't have early introductions to it so it didn't form in some of the basic brain structures where it feels like that is the story of life. Like, I'm curious, because I know you're a deep thinker. And so I'm wondering where you've landed on spirit, religion, the difference between the two.

Yeah, I was brought up, my father was a champion of agnosticism. And I guess I grew up skeptical and agnostic with a very strong sense of, and still have a very strong sense of my own culture and religion, which happens to be Jewish. So I've got, I feel a very strong connection to that. But I am agnostic about whether there's a God or not. And so I have a sensitivity and deep respect for religion and for people who are spiritually orientated. And I'm uncertain myself and I've never changed. And you've been, the reason I'm asking the heavy questions here is because you've been studying humans for a long time. And you've been studying, you know, that restless nature from that perspective. And when I hear that, I hear like you've got this inner, well, I don't want to use the word agitation. We'll use restlessness. about humans and that you want to understand it to, to go further in inside of the nuances of how people work together and how

change takes place, how behavior changes. And inside of that, I want to ask one more, what I think is a relatively big question that is not asked often enough is what from your lenses from your history and deep mind what are what are humans doing what are we doing here you know i think i do think we are born the most wonderful beautiful creatures and i we're doing what we're doing here is trying to reach our potential and use the natural goodness and love that's inside us. And I believe we're born with the most wonderful capacity to express ourselves and to empathize with other people. And then I unfortunately fear that socialization in all its forms, education, parenting, gets in the way, all too often gets in the way. And so human development becomes a struggle to realize these wonderful potentials that are in us.

So, yes, I do believe that human beings are born with the most wonderful qualities in them and observing my own children and and what they've been doing naturally has amplified that conviction how many children do you have i've got four yeah big family yeah i've got four of them man and uh um can i tell you a story one of them he was my youngest he's actually seven i was driving with him in a car quite recently last year so he would have been six and he emitted the most perfect empathic listening statements and this was for me confirmation of the fact that children not only have the ability to experience empathy but in this kid's case at that point in time they have a natural ability to express it now I I've spent my professional life trying to teach practitioners to practice empathy with their patients and clients. And they struggle, Mike.

So how come a six-year-old can do this naturally? Because he's your son. No. Okay. Keep going. I want to hear it. No, I worked it out. he can do it because his mind is uncluttered and he's curious okay he's curious and kids are all born with curiosity and curiosity

is the foundation for empathizing you are wondering about what's going on outside you so it's possible for you to imagine and experience what other people are experiencing. So that curiosity is there. And what then his mind is completely uncluttered. He's like naked, his curiosity is naked. And that kind of naked curiosity, actually, is the foundation for what Rogers was talking about and for motivational interview. The problem that I now realize, this is looking back with the benefit of hindsight, is that the reason why I struggle to teach practitioners and sports coaches and you name the professional group to empathize is because their minds are

too cluttered. And so that smothers their curiosity. You see what I'm saying? Yeah, for sure. Including cleverness. Because a lot of people I come across are pretty clever people. And cleverness in both myself, 100% certain, I've realized that, and in other people i wonder smothers curiosity so cleverness is not really all that valuable when it comes to helping other people to change in in my world of motivational

interviewing but the foundation skill of empathizing um is something that's there in all of us. Okay. Yeah. I love it. What did he say or do? What did your son say or do that struck you? Do you remember that? Yeah. He said to me, we were driving through pouring rain, and I said, I better put these windscreen wipers on fast because I can't see a damn thing. And he said, Dad, that must make driving quite difficult for you.

Okay. And that's him doing two things. Okay. Internally, he's experiencing this empathy with my situation. But externally, if you like, he's making a statement that shows me that he understands my world. Because it's one thing to experience empathy, but it's another skill. It's a skill when you try and translate that experience you have into something that you say to somebody that makes them feel that you're connected to them. And so there are these two aspects of empathic listening. The second one has been largely ignored. And so empathy is described as an experience you have of standing in someone else's shoes. And what we've learned in motivational interviewing is that there's a second stage, which I mean, really is in debt

to Rogers, which is that you can make an empathic listening statement that cements the empathic connection between you and the person you're speaking with. I don't know if that's helpful, Mike. Oh, no, no, no, no. And so I think that there's, what I've noticed is that when people are working and they're trying to figure something out and they get me, I'll use me, and I get stuck in my head and I'm anxious about something or I'm frustrated or I can't see, I can't feel it. I'm stuck in some way. And it's easy to get caught in this loop. And then as soon as I start to share that with somebody else, I feel, you know, the courage or I feel like I really want to connect with somebody. And then on the other side, so now there's the moment I'm sharing something I'm confused by

or anxious by or sad with. And then I share it with another person. And at the moment that there's a moment. And in that moment, when they, it's a look, it's a reflective statement, it's a question. And in that moment between what I've said and waiting to see the response back, right? It's that space in between that makes the relationship. And when that person, when they say something back that is about them or their story, and it's not really about attuning to what's happening that I'm trying to sort out or whatever, that we're lost. We're just lost, right? And then so then I try to say it a different way.

And then they're trying to say it a different way. And we're just doing this frustrating, disconnected dance. It's like we're off time. And then so that's the off example. Then the on example is when someone just looks and, or they say something, and there's a vibration that is matched. And when that vibration is matched, and I don't want to be woo-woo by any means, right? And I think we can do this from a brain state. We can do this from a neurochemical. We can take a look at oxytocin exchange. Like we can do this from lots of different scientific

lenses. But when that vibration, to use that word as a placeholder for lots of other exchanges, when that takes place, now I'm no longer stuck. And it's not just my experience, but I'm sharing it with another person. And in that creates a whole vehicle for a new experience in life. And when we do that, when we go from individual suffering or confusion or anxiousness or whatever, and we share that with another person, now it's shared suffering, that something happens. And I can look and say, okay, oxytocin, I can say, okay, we've got alpha brain state that's connected or whatever, like we can look at that, but something far greater than that takes place. And so we call it empathy. And this is what I'm really, I've got this burn for this conversation is, so when we start with a curiousness about another person's experience or the state or whatever that somebody's going

through, when we start with an authentic curiosity and we're not marred by anxiety or narcissism or intolerance or agitation housed by a whole type of either social events or physiological events that are taking place within the person. Because, you know, if you don't get good sleep, it's hard to be curious, right? If you're not getting in the right foods in the morning or the afternoon and you just can't afford the choices of luxury of having organic foods, whatever, it's easy to get agitated quickly. So let's say all of that is in place, right? And somebody has authentic curiosity, they're in it, and they're with you. How can we use that as a structured way to help amplify human genius, to help amplify, you know, the good, the brilliance, the skills that we have within us that we've spent our whole life maybe working to develop? And this is where, you know, elite performers come into play is that they've spent their whole life working to have these skills that they can do on stage in training,

but maybe can't do on stage when 10,000 people are watching. How can we use your understanding and insights to help unlock the genius of others? And why I'm interested in genius, just to be really clear, is because when we can create a rising tide, all float, all boats float. That's what I'm imagining for the wellness of the human race is that when we feel seen and we feel understood and we feel whole because our good stuff inside of us, whatever that good stuff means is being shared.

Now we're snapping into purpose and meaning. And when people have purpose and meaning, it's harder to do destructive things. Anyways, unless, you know, let's say Hitler had purpose and meaning, right? And he was pretty destructive. So I get caught in that chink in logic. But anyways, back to the structural piece that I'm hoping you can shine light on. Yeah. And so you're wondering how people can gain mastery, if you like, over this capacity to reach out and empathize with others, because you and I share this idea that it can fire people up to be brave enough to change. Look at you with your positive affirmation. You're refirming affirmation.

Yes. You're a student of your approach. I'm with you. Yes. I feel heard. You're wondering how people can achieve mastery in this. And I think you and I are agreeing that, you know, one way of putting it is I've mentioned like an uncluttered mind. And I think if you're in an uncluttered state,

you will hopefully accept the way you feel. In other words, you'll feel comfortable in your own skin. And that was what the kid in the back of the car was feeling he was comfortable in his own skin he's in an uncluttered state of mind and he's curious and he he empathizes with me now i guess what i want to say is that um this is something that can be nurtured and taught to people. It's a skill. Okay. Where it's possible to, within a relationship, if both parties can get to feel comfortable in their own skin, it can fire the most incredible creative energy. And that's what I've seen with motivational interviewing and with my own children. But the point is, it is a skill and it can be taught to people. And I have observed the most wonderful examples of this and dramatic examples of the impact of this. And so we, it requires clarity about the experience, the internal experience that you might have, or I might have of empathizing with you on the one hand, but with my capacity to convey this to you on the other. And when you sense that you will be brave enough to face change, if that's what we're talking about.

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a question that Albert Bandora asked me that I want to ask to you. That'll be fun. Yeah. Okay, so what... Yeah, please. Go ahead, man. Go ahead. me that I want to I want to I want to ask to you that'll be fun yeah okay so yeah please go ahead man go ahead no no no no go for it you can see you fired me up here man look um I don't want you to take the stories in any way um um amplifying my skills or anything. These skills are simple, as I've illustrated with my child. The problem is when people do everything but use that skill. So you're sitting there and you're feeling something and you're talking to someone and you feel they're not with you. What they

often try and do also is solve the problem for you and tell you what to do or suggest this and that. That's where it all started for me was this, what I call the writing reflex, using the writing reflex instead of listening, so to speak. Now, honestly, just it was a couple of months ago, I was walking over a crowded bridge in the student area of town, a railway bridge, and it was super crowded. And I was on a bike and I noticed a young person

climbing over the bridge about to throw herself off. And people were sort of rushing by, and I dropped the bike and ran over to the bridge. And from what I've learned from colleagues like Jonathan Fader and others who worked with first responders, indeed, I've got a son who's a police officer, is that the worst thing you can do is solve the problem for the person. That is really, or suggest solutions. And I knew that. So what I did was I made five or six empathic listening statements in a row. That's all I did. And it was a skill that I've got. Nothing incredible, but as I've said, my kids got it. But I made five or six empathic listening statements in a row. She climbed down off the bridge. We had a cup of tea and we are now text friends and she's fine. And I never got a chance to deconstruct the experience with her because I

had a cup of tea and tried to help her find counseling. And we now text each other. And I never got a chance to deconstruct the experience with her because I had a cup of tea and tried to help her find counseling. And we now text each other. And I don't even know her name, but we text each other. And for me, that experience was of the power of this technique of reflective or empathic listening. So it is a skill and it's possible to teach it to people. And some of the research on motivational interviewing and indeed outside of that field demonstrates that when people are struggling with things, the use of the skill is incredibly powerful and produces better outcomes. What I imagine you and I get immersed in if we're working in the field of sport is this question, how can you help a coach develop better connections with the players so that they feel comfortable and safe? Because when the sports people feel comfortable and safe, they will say what they think and feel. And if they do that,

they will be able to connect better with their teammates and outcomes will be better. So I think from that sort of beginning, if we can teach sports coaches and school teachers and parents the skill, I guess maybe I'm in dreamland, Michael, but like, I feel it really could transform both the process and the outcome. I think you're right. And you know what I love about your story is that you clearly had an opportunity. And I think I, I'm imagining that this is, this was an important moment for you because you had this opportunity. And in that opportunity, you could run over and say, don't jump.

Don't jump. You could say, it's not worth it. These are all kind of standard lines for movies, right? But you walked over, you ran over, and you used all of your skills. You used your insights. Maybe you had a flashback of, hey, my six-year-old son can do this. I can do this. I don't know what that run over, if you will, to the edge of the

bridge was. But it feels like in that moment, you knew that you had a way to connect with somebody. You did it under duress. And that is, of all the stories you could share, you just shared that one. And it's life, it's a life and death issue and you used your methodologies to connect with the person and it obviously impacted their life for good and then you trans and which i i mean come on that's like at the highest level right like you're using yourself um yeah in a difficult environment for the benefit of someone else that's it's beautiful right and then

and then you get you you you migrate that into a question about like how can we use that same strategy in sport because what you just described was a performance in some ways and then so in sport there's two things i want to share a story with you and i was in what i would call a state of mortal fatigue it's the most exhausted I've ever been. It was an ultra-type endurance event. And it was on the ocean. And there was a captain of a boat who was trailing me and he was supporting me in case something went wrong. And I did the most unthinkable thing.

I was caught in a current. It was 3.1 miles an hour. I had to face it down straight into it. And I ran to face it down straight into it. And I couldn't, I ran out of it. I ran out of the internal stuff, the strength, the, the physio, it was a physiological thing. I was going as fast as I possibly can. And I was just matching the current at 3.1 miles an hour. And this was now at mile 21 of a 26, um, which ended up being 30 mile event out in the ocean. And I couldn't break it.

And it was physical at this point. And then I did the unthinkable. I went on my hands and knees. It was stand up paddling. I went to my hands and knees. And that means I just started drifting into the current. Okay. So, right.

So you get that state. Yeah. And then, okay, now let's go back to kind of your question. He says to me, he screams from about three, four football fields away, and he screams, stand up. Yes. That was it. That was it.

He didn't ask me how I was doing. He didn't say, you're okay. I would have wanted to punch him in the face. I was so agitated and broken and he didn'taring, if you will. So I shared that story with you because it's not what people think. talking about empathy, I think most people go, okay, oh God, oh God, where's the couch? You guys are kidding me, right? We're going to talk about empathy. We're going to talk about reflective listening. We don't got time for that. We've got to do fill in the blanks, whatever tough thing that athletes need to do. And what I'm suggesting to maybe possibly answer your question is that there are, when you really understand, when you build the internal skill to really understand what it's like for another person, stop there. If we just stopped right there, that coach, that fill in the blanks person of

important relationship for another person's growth would be significantly better. And they don't even need to say much because I think that so much happens from body language, micro expressions and body language. And when they do say something, if they can convey that understanding of what it's like to be in the amphitheater, the person in the amphitheater will be significantly better as well. That's great to see. Yeah.

So puzzle that, isn't it? Isn't that? Yeah. Yeah, because sometimes it works. Sometimes telling someone what to do works. Sadly, it's become a default position all too often. And most of the time it doesn't work. This is exceptional what you describe and very interesting. And I would hazard a guess that you probably sensed that this guy

really cared. He wouldn't have bothered to shout. It was there. It was there. Yeah. And you know, Stephen, let me take it a step further because there's a second part of the story I think is really important for you to hear. And so in the second part, so yes. Okay. Because now we're at about seven hours. He's been sitting on the boat, a support guide, you know, captaining this boat, just watching for seven hours, watching someone struggle. So you got to care. You got to really care to do that. Okay. So the answer is yes. But then the second part of the story is that I stood up and then he, he screams now paddle. I was like, Oh, okay. Now I wasn't in, in, um, mild to moderate delirium. So I wasn't thinking clearly. And so he was making it super simple. So, so I put my board in the water and I paddle. Now here's the brilliance. I got to about five paddles in and I hear from the boat this just radical, enthusiastic clapping. He was just clapping because he was seeing like, yes, yes, yes. That's it. That's it.

That's it. Holy shit. This is so good. And he's just clapping. But he didn't do it on the first one. He didn't do it on the second one. He didn't do it on the second one. It was like four or five in. Yes. Okay. So there, that's the attunement. That's that connection. And it wasn't for his good and glory.

And it wasn't so we, he could get off the ocean, hurry, hurry up, Mike. Right. So it's a, it's that deep, deep, deep connection that I think is only found on the frontier of capacity. Yes, it's very interesting because the very same behavior can have a negative impact on people if there's an absence of that caring and quality timing. So hearing a story about exceptions is very interesting. And I wouldn't like to be dogmatic and say, look, the best way to encourage someone to change, like that young student off the bridge, is always to do X or Y. But I think in critical situations like that one on the bridge, there's quite a lot of experience in the field among first responders that telling someone what to do, like don't jump, is the worst thing you can say. But for some reason, they're in the water for you in your desperately vulnerable state.

You've got a sense that somebody really cared and you probably, and it helped you. And so it's a little bit paradoxical that, and that's the richness of human communication. But you know, Mike, there's something else that you pointed to there that I thought I would touch on when it comes to answering your question about skills, which is the use of praise. And I wonder if you're interested in briefly touching on that.

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And I also want to go through the methodology, the motivational interviewing methodology, so that people have a sense of, you know, what are the two guys talking about here? You know, I want to make sure we do that as well. Yeah, yeah. Okay, let's go. Why don't I try in a couple of sentences to say what motivational interviewing is, and then we can drop into some of the skills.

Let me try. Let me get 30 years into a couple of sentences. We have discovered that instead of trying to persuade people why or how they should change, it's far better to basically to create a conversation in which they do it for themselves. Okay. And in order to create that conversation, you need to come alongside someone and you need to view them as a person who's got the motivation inside them and the strengths inside them. And you need to use communication skills in order to help them face change and to answer the question about why and how they might change for themselves. So that's it in a sentence or two. I could put it in more flowery language,

but that's basically what happens in a lovely motivational interviewing session. So if you like, it's a bit like me trying to describe a dance form in that there is a style to the communication, and I've described that as being most like the behavior of a skillful guide or coach. And there are techniques that are used in order to maximize that person's freedom and comfort to face change and to answer for themselves why or how they might change. And, you know, Mike, I noticed the comments you made. I listened to your podcast with Brene Brown. And here I quote, Gervais says, confidence comes from what you say to yourself, not from what others say or think about you. And so this wisdom that people are better persuaded by what they themselves think is the wise and right thing to do rather than what other people say is not unique to motivational interviewing. All we've done is clarified the skill sets involved when you want to help someone be brave enough to face change. I love it. Yeah, no, it's so good. And, you know, and there's so many

questions I have from that, like drug related questions, a motivation, a motivational behavior. Like there's so many questions I have about it, because the dance is poetic when you describe it. And maybe I want to hold the questions and then ask you to walk through kind of the four key pillars, if you will, open affirmations, and just walk through those four pillars, if you will. Yeah. So we've pointed to probably the most powerful skill, which is the use of reflective listening or empathic listening. And it actually saves time. I don't believe we've got the time not to listen. I really don't. I really feel that in most human exchanges where you're trying to help someone, if you don't listen, you're going to hit trouble. So,

but this skill can be used very efficiently and can save you time. And I can give you some wonderful examples of how it saves time. Listening saves time. It doesn't take time. So that's an interesting one. But the other skills are, you can imagine if you want to help somebody say for themselves why and how they might change, you ask them a question. And it'll be an open question like, how do you think next time you go on that paddleboard, you can get through a current like that? OK, so there's a simple question. It's an open question. It's because I believe that the next time you, Mike, hit that current, you probably got inside you the motivation and wisdom to find a solution.

So I would ask an open question But when I ask that open question the worst thing I can do is clutter your mind clutter my mind with more and more questioning and That's where the beauty of reflective listening comes up comes in because if I make a reflective listening statement in Response to your ideas about how you might do it, which we call change talk. If I respond with reflective listening, you get to say more about how and why this might come about. And we're starting to now enter the world of language. You're starting to use language about change that we have found in the research predicts change. So to put it bluntly, the more Michael says why and how he might get over that current the next time, the more likely he will be.

And I've got to create a conversation with you that is free of any impediments and allows you to formulate that for yourself. And reflective listening is a very powerful way of doing that. Now, then there's two other skills, right? One is a summary, which allows me to bring together what you've said about change and your strengths and your aspirations and convictions for handling that challenge better and hand it to you. And it helps you feel that I've listened to you. It allows me to shift the direction of the conversation. And critically, you might respond to that by saying, yeah, you've got it. And this is what I'm going to do. And if you like, that's motivational interviewing made simple. But there's one skill I haven't mentioned, right, which goes back to what I was suggesting we chat about, which is affirmation.

OK, you know, Mike, I could view your story about that paddleboard as riddled with problems. Here's a guy who's overambitious and I could start labeling you. He's overambitious. He's macho. He's I could pass any judgments under the sun. He's got a problem and we'll call his problem stamina in the face of occurrence. And next thing, it's my job to solve your problem. And that is that kind of those lenses are widespread in health care and education and sport. And so if you like, the sports coach or teacher becomes the deficit detective whose job it is to identify deficits. And then that carries the danger of using the writing reflex to rectify them. Parents, we know that all the time. The side of a sports field where you see kids playing, the behavior of adults is appalling. Now, what I'm suggesting here is that if I was

going to be really helpful to you, I would flick over another set of lenses across my deficit lenses, which look for strength. And here we have the influence of positive psychology. But in the case of motivational interviewing, we've identified an actual skill that allows you to do that so that when you flick those strength lenses over i will use skill of affirmation quite naturally okay and an affirmation here would be um you clearly very much wanted to make your way through that current and there wasn't a lot that was going to stop you easily now if i said that to you which is an affirmation it's quite different to praise mike because i could say hey mike well done you had the guts to stand up on that board and try again the impact of those two ways of speaking to you i I think is quite profound. The difference. Okay. Yeah. Like if you, if you

amplify the resourcefulness that I had or the whatever, then it feels very different than nice job. And the nice job is like, is speaking to the accomplishment and the affirmation is speaking to the internal skill. And where I think something that I've noticed a lot is that when people think about having positive conversations, they just stay on the affirmation. That's not what it is, right? That's only in your model. That's one of four levers. And just using that one lever just really feels very hollow. context of all of the other exploratory curious empathetic high regard for the human's puzzle solving meaning making machine to be able to say oh i get you oh so is this what's happening

and then fill in the blanks and people go yeah yeah or they'll course correct right this is what i this has been my experience is that like oftentimes'll say, okay, oh, oh. So you started off talking about being pissed, but it sounds like you really feel lonely. And they'll either say, yep, or they'll say, not even close. I'm not lonely. I'm not lonely at all. They'll help us in the navigation, right? Yeah, that's right. And, you know, I think the difference between praise and affirmation is worth

reflecting about. Notice the absence of I in affirmation. Praise is something I hand down to you, effectively a judgment, okay? And it leaves you in a position of possible dependence on my approval or judgment. And it also carries the implication that you might not get it sometimes. And I think this is what psychologists are suggesting when they talk about the dangers of praise. Affirmation is a learnable, is a teachable and learnable skill that combined with the others really fires people up and helps them to feel like they can do things. And I've got a soccer coach who knows nothing about motivational interviewing here in the UK, who writes to me about using affirmation from the side of a soccer field instead of praise. Now, if you and I think about how praise is used like confetti in sports and education, here is the possibility of training teachers and coaches to really use something that's much more effective. And this soccer coach tells me that he notices the other girls in the team

notice when he's affirming a player and they try and copy her. And so I think that this is huge potential and doesn't take any time at all. I love it because, you know, part of, you just unlock something for me is that I have this, I don't, I could never explain it until right now. This really deep agitation to the phrase, I'm so proud of him. I'm so proud of you. And it's because it's about the person saying that rather than the experience of the, yeah. And so you just unlock something massive and oh it usually comes from a loving place not a manipulative place but it really is about the sayer of that phrase rather than the doer of the deed and so i love what you've

just done there and then you something else that i'm picking up that you said in your insights here is that there's a difference. And maybe this ties back to the story I was sharing or maybe why I even wanted to share it is because it feels like there's two different, at least two different types of environments for help. One is the luxury of exploring and setting that relationship up from a high regard, high empathy, curious standpoint. And then there are other moments in context where there is not the luxury of exploring. There is on time, critical life slash death, sometimes perceived, sometimes real in your earlier story moments. And in those moments, I think you would say, no, no, no, we still need to be curious. You know, like that's what saved the woman from jumping. And then I'm trying to figure out, I've seen such a sharp sword in high, almost command moments where people run out of resources. Like I ran out of the

resource and if he would have pulled alongside me and said, how you doing? As I'm drifting 3.1 miles an hour away from a place where I'm barely like it would have been wrong. Yeah. Yeah. Right. And it would, it just would have been so wrong. It would have been empathetic, but I didn't need in that moment empathy. So I'm wondering if the context, like there's some sort of diagram about context as well that is really curious for me. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. I think that guy in the boat, I said this earlier, that guy in the boat really cared and he just came out with the right thing at the right time. to use these skills which we possess naturally. And our upbringing and education has sadly clouded a lot of the use of these skills so that as grown-ups we end up becoming deficit detectives using the writing reflex as a default. And that's not what that skipper of the vote did.

And so my feeling about motivational interviewing is that we've simply uncovered what's out there naturally. And we've certainly kind of, we can describe what a motivational interviewing session is like. And if I put my kind of therapist hat on, I can tell you that it produces better outcomes and I can teach people to use it. But I think it's the broader lessons for how we conduct ourselves in our everyday lives where there's the most potential. And a few carefully chosen words are worth more than many mouthfuls of busy talk, if you like. And often an empathic listening statement or an affirmation in particular can make a huge difference to someone. And I could tell you stories about that if you're interested, but really, I'm going to respond to what you're interested in here, Mike.

Well, you know what I'm curious about is what would you say to a parent of a, you know, go back to six or seven year olds, and I know that you are exactly that person, but you've spent your life working to understand the right methodology to amplify, to understand, to connect with other people by using regard and empathy and curiosity. What would you suggest to somebody who's going, ooh, ooh, ooh, there's something here. What can I do? What can I do with my kid? Where would you start them? I would say, and this is very personal, I would say, try to take the deficit detective lenses off. Try not to view your children as having problems or having behavior problems and try and put those affirming strength lenses on and view them as as people who's struggling to grow and change in a complex world and use 80 percent of your energy expressing that in a helpful way for the child and 20% focused on behavior. I mean, I'm just making the figures up, but it's usually the reverse. It's usually the reverse

when parents are struggling. And so they focus, zoom in on the problem and scratch their heads and tear their hair out about how to solve a problem. And motivational interviewing was designed to solve problems, but I think its potential is far greater to help people grow and change. And so that would be my advice to parents. Spend your energy on connecting with your kids, on helping them to recognizing their strengths, affirming them rather than praising them, listening to them, and you're going to get better outcomes. You're going to get fewer behavioral problems.

So that's where you want to invest your energy. Now, boy, oh, boy, some of my kids would snigger with laughter if they could hear me now because they know the mistakes that I've made with them, you know? But, you know, that's definitely what I've made with them, you know? Yeah, no kidding. That's definitely what I've learned about parenting. I'm not saying ignore problems. I'm saying don't get sucked into them as being the only thing you want to pay attention to.

Stephen, who are you fascinated by? Who am I fascinated by? You know, right now I'm working in sport. And so it's something that I look up to you as being somebody who's lived in this world for a long time. I'm really fascinated by high performance sport right now. Oh, this is getting good now last friday night i met doug scott last friday night night who's the guy who opened up the north face of the or the west face of of everest and he gave a talk about his life in climbing um and so i'm i i i'm fascinated by big wave riders having been a surfer, by sports people.

So that happens to be what I'm involved in at the moment. But I'm also really fascinated by what is it in a teacher that really grips children and helps them to grow. And I've been immersed in that world for a few years, both professionally and personally. And I've watched with some pleasure and a lot of pain how my 16-year-old daughters, you know, attaching herself to an inspiring teacher on the positive side and then having the curiosity and creativity in her flattened by mindless teaching, on the other hand. So, you know, I look up to talented coaches and skillful teachers with incredible admiration and awe. And I feel like a junior anthropologist who's trying to uncover what it is that they're doing when they're doing it well. And the listening and the affirmations have rung seriously familiar bells to me as you've no doubt heard in this conversation yeah okay if you were to sit across from somebody who is a a master of craft and somebody that has um you know gone the depths of the nuances to

really understand self and um and craft what would the, and this is a reductionist question, but what would be the one question you'd want to ask them, him or her? I would want to ask them when you're doing well, what's happening to you? And I'd want to follow it up with, if somebody is speaking to you about it, it's exactly like your paddleboard story. What's helpful and not helpful? And they linked questions, but that first one is what I asked Doug Scott. humbling to hear to hear his answer because what he was describing I mean in literally hanging off close to the summit of Everest hanging off a rock without oxygen you know what I mean it's it's difficult to imagine what he is

describing is very similar to what I've experienced in a very mild form when a motivational interviewing session is going well or when I observe a high quality teacher or a sports coach, which is a mind that is uncluttered and very focused in the present and I guess I'm looking repeatedly to have this confirmed and affirmed I don't know why because sounds so obvious but and to be at 28,000 feet hanging off a rock and not be distracted by fear is is something I hold in such all you know I want to comment on. And I also want to ask another question. The comment, though, is that maybe it's an insight that I found to be pretty evident, is that mindfulness has been around for 2600 years, right? The practice of without judgment critique, you know, acluttered approach to just observation. And so I'm curious if you have that practice. But before we get there, what you just described about being on the edge of the cliff and not having fear is that there is no space for it. And so if truly your death depends on you getting the next foothold right, there's no space for it. And those that have lived in that world long enough, it's like not that they don't feel fear, but it is a methodology to amplify the necessary focus to do the thing. So it's like another counterintuitive off-access approach to mindfulness because your mind has to be right when you're on the edge of the cliff.

It just has to be right. And if it's not, you don't get to keep going. Right? And so, yeah. But do you practice mindfulness? I mean, mindfulness is something that's happened mostly in North America in the last 20 years. OK, it's been an adventure to laugh at myself i was facing a high pressure situation two days ago and I left my room in this hotel and I said

to myself right guy now right you know so I walked very slowly down this car this hotel corridor right and I gathered myself and we can use different words to explain what I did mindfulness is one self-hypnosis might be another I was doing a few deep breaths. And really, I was in such a beautiful zone when I got to the end of that corridor. I did it very slowly. So, yeah, you could say I practiced mindfulness. And I was in a wonderful zone. And I pressed the lift button, no problem. And I walked into the lift.

And I was in such a wonderful zone. And I pressed the alarm instead of the ground button. Like, yeah, I woke up pretty quickly. This incredible alarm went off and a phone started ringing. And I just ran up and ran down the stairs. You know, you better just go and face the music because I was about to, you know. So there you go. You know, I managed to laugh at myself there, but yes.

I think there's different roots to that state of mind. And practicing mindfulness is one that I've used, and there are other roots. Practicing curiosity is that. Correct. a solution, all of that is a mindfulness approach. So it's in a very applied approach to living that you've created or that you've lived by that has certainly supported the curious mind, which if you've studied some of the traditions of mindfulness is the ultimate state, right? A child's mind is

the ultimate state. It's uncluttered, unfettered, if you will, by knowing and knowledge. Okay. Do you ever struggle with the fear that you don't maybe have what it takes, like you're going to be found out one day, the imposter syndrome type of thinking? Did you ever have that? Do you still have that? Was it not, you know, tell me about that. Yeah, definitely. What happened was I was in this expert world of psychology and we developed something called motivational interviewing and it got bigger than it needed to be

and um i always felt um that people were placing me on a inappropriately on a pedestal because all i was really doing was chance trying to translate what works from the world of psychology and psychotherapy into a form that people can use in everyday life. So I actually experienced myself as a translator, not as an inventor, and yet people treat me that way. And so that's given rise to precisely what you've just described. And over the decades, I've learned to handle it more maturely. I can't say two decades ago I was particularly mature in the face of this kind of overvaluation from other people, which led me to feel like I was an imposter. And I was much more immature about it. I would make jokes.

I would undermine myself. But I guess with the benefit of decades, I've got a little bit more humble about it. And, you know, I try and remind people that, really, we're just trying to translate good practice that's out there already. And that's really what we've been trying to do in Motivational Interview. We did say right at the beginning, William Miller and I, that we wouldn't try and control this. So I'm very glad we didn't do that because we could have put a fence around it and charged people a lot of money to be trained in it and so on we you know I said right from the beginning let's just

give this stuff away and if it's a value it'll last if it's not a value it won't and I think it's lasted because of a hunger out there for alternatives to toxic efforts to persuade people I think that's why it's lasted but you know really if it wasn't necessary I'd that's why it's lasted. But you know, really, if it wasn't necessary, I'd be delighted because it would mean there aren't these toxic processes going on there. But we haven't tried to control people's use of motivational interviewing. And I don't think motivational interviewing is as important as people finding constructive ways to have conversations with folk about change and improve practice. That's what matters. So with that

knowledge inside me, I don't feel like an imposter because that's where my focus is. And I'm not interested in defending motivational interviewing or promoting it at all. I'm passionately keen to promote what good practice looks like. And you can call it what you like, as you can tell from some of the stories that happen outside the therapy world. And yeah, so there you go, Mike. Steven, I just want to thank you for your time. I want to celebrate what it feels like to me to have this conversation with a deep thinker, a game changer in the field, an authentically curious person who feels good in his skin. And it's just as evident by the way that you choose words, by the way that you express

what you've come to understand and how you go about conducting your life, even in this conversation. So I want to say thank you for your time, your influence in change at scale for so many people. And I really would love to have a second part two of this conversation to go more into the mechanics of like optimism and pessimism and, you know, passion and how you deal with setbacks. Like, I really would love to get into that space with you, but I just want to say thank you. Mike, it's a huge pleasure, my man, and I look forward to that. Let's do it. Okay, so where can people find you? Where's a good place for people to connect with

you? You can check my website. It's stephenrolnick.com. Okay. Just one word, Stephen Rolnick, P-H-E-N Rolnick, R-O-L-L-N-I-C-K.com. You can also, if you're interested in motivational interviewing, there's a website called motivationalinterviewing.org. And I reckon that should be enough. Brilliant. And you've got some serious books on it. And so I want to encourage people that want to make change in themselves and with others to check out Stephen, check out his work, understand motivational interviewing and practice it daily within your loved ones and within yourself. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Stephen, for the time. Michael, it's a pleasure, man. And I look forward to catching up again. Brilliant. Okay, take care. All the best. Bye. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us.

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