Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Dr. Tim Brown, IntelliSkin Founder/Creator

Episode Date: April 17, 2019

This week’s conversation is with Dr. Tim Brown, the inventor of IntelliSkin.Tim grew to understand his future creation while working as the medical director on the ASP (association of surfing professionals) and the AVP (association of volleyball professionals) during the 1980’s.As an early innovator in functional taping, he developed a hybrid kinesiology technique known as SPRT (Specific Proprioceptive Response Taping).Used on athletes from Olympians to NFL players, the technique quickly became a staple in the athletic world as it allowed athletes to function at a higher level.Tim’s instinctive techniques got athletes asking for taping remedies so often, that he needed something that could do the job when he wasn’t there.Many late nights of trial and error using remnants of old wetsuits and rash guards, he devised a wearable technology that mimicked his taping technique.Tim’s goal was to take what he had learned in designing and come up with a comfortable, Smart Compression shirt that would clinically improve posture and spinal alignment for everyone, whether you’re an elite athlete or a weekend warrior.I wanted to talk with Tim because not only does he have an incredible understanding of the proper function for the human body (both for professionals, as well as, for the rest of us), but also to get inside the mind of an disruptive product innovator.Tim believes the paradigm for fitness is broken and it starts with getting posture right._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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stay present and engaged with my thinking and writing. If you wanna slow down, if you wanna work smarter, I highly encourage you to check them out. Visit remarkable.com to learn more and grab your paper pro today. No position gives the body more energy and more potential than posture, whether you're an athlete or you're working at a computer. Our systems communicate better when we have posture. Everything works at its ideal level, right? Our breath works right. Our alignment's right. The body's under the least amount of stress. It works best in the field of gravity when we're in posture. And posture is not just a static thing. It's a movement thing too. So training people how to move in posture is

critical too. That's why we never learned that growing up. So these athletes that go out there and have all these great potentials genetically haven't even touched how good they can get if they were able to put all these systems together. Okay, welcome back or welcome to the Finding Mastery podcast. I'm Michael Gervais and by trade and training, a sports psychologist, as well as the co-founder of Compete to Create. And the whole idea behind these conversations is to learn from people who really understand stuff, who really understand their craft and how to articulate it. And we want to dig deeper to understand

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And if you're in the sport industry, you definitely know what IntelliSkin is. If you're not, no problems. Because this conversation is really about his craft, the body, your body, how to enhance your body for proper posture and energy management, as well as what does it take to develop a disruptive technology? And that's the IntelliSkin part of it. But before all that, let's give some context about Tim. So he grew to understand this creation, IntelliSkin, while working as the medical director on the ASP, that's the Association of Surfing Professionals, and the AVP, that's the Association of Volleyball Professionals, during the 1980s. And as an early innovator in functional taping, and that's where you've seen some athletes that have tape pulling their body into different postures and positions. It's part of the rehab and prehab that athletes go through. He developed a hybrid kinesiology technique known as

SPRT, specific proprioceptive response taping. And he used it on athletes from Olympians to NFL players, and the technique quickly became a staple in the athletic world as it allowed athletes to function at a higher level, even when they were beat up a little bit and they had some sort of compensation that they were dealing with, whether it was a tightness or a looseness in a joint or a slight strain. And so the technique became so popular that it got athletes asking for taping remedies so often that he needed something that could do the job when he wasn't there. And that's where he started to innovate. And as he puts it, many late nights of trial and error using remnants of old wetsuits and rash guards because he came from the surfing world. He devised a wearable technology that mimicked his taping technique. And Tim's goal was to take

what he'd learned in designing and coming up with a comfortable, smart compression shirt that would clinically improve posture and spinal alignment for everyone, whether you're an elite athlete or weekend warrior or somebody that sits a lot. You know, the importance of posture for us professional sitters is really important too. So with that, let's jump right into this week's conversation with Dr. Tim Brown. Tim, how are you? I'm great, Michael. Good to see you. Yeah, great to see you. So we've been fortunate enough to know each other for a long time. We've worked together with some athletes.

You have a way that you make your team, your tribe, your community, your athletes that you work with better. It's because what I've learned is that you really see things from a multidimensional perspective. That, I think, is part of your genius. Now, you've got a lot of genius in there. Okay. So arguably, yeah, arguably. So, but that is really special. And while people can say, you know, Oh, of course, like no one can do it alone. Check. Correct. And whatever, you know, in the medical field, in the, in the performance world, in health, even in business,

no one does it alone. But there's something special about people that actually go out of their way, make connections with other people, with humans, understand what their genius is, and then weave it in properly so that everybody benefits. And it all starts with the client. In this case, for you, it's athletes. So when you hear me say that about how I understand you, what happens for you? I think of word Machiavellian. You know, I have to be honest. Are you calling me? No, no, this is all on me.

But, you know, I think we all have to look at our life situation and say, why are we here? And how do we get into this situation? Why are we starting heavy? Why are we starting so heavy? That's for me to start heavy. Are you going to start heavy? It's so funny. No, it's just true. I'm down with the truth. Truth has no agenda. So I'll lay it out there for you. And you can certainly edit the heck out of this thing, as you said. There are no edits. so go back to Machiavelli yeah so you know I think that if we look at everything honestly in in our lives and what we surround ourselves with it's all about advantage and it's we're trying to get our own advantage in life so that we can elevate ourself for whatever reason whether it's selfish or for the good of the whole. And the reason I say Machiavellian is because I believe that when we

create a system and we recognize within that system that there are certain parts of that system that are very strong and certain parts that are not quite as strong and resilient. When we look to others that look at things in the same philosophy but approach it in a different way, we find ways to patch those areas that are weak or strengthen those areas that are weak. And when I look at somebody's health, I look at them as what you eat, think, and do. That's really my history. I'm looking at those things because the totality of those three things in different quantities and different people make up who you are. Eat, think, and do. And you spend your time with elite doers, right?

And when you think of, this is me trying to understand your framework a little bit. What is the value of each of those components to people performing at their best? You know, like this is an old game. Like, is it 20% here, 50% here? And I have a thought that I want to, it's already loaded that I want to share with you, but I don't want to bias yours. speak with a patient or speak with an athlete and understand based on their history, where their spots are, where their vulnerabilities lie and what they might need to do to get to their a hundred percent, whatever that might be. And the a hundred percent, frankly, is a journey, not a destination. We never get the a hundred percent. And if we do, it's probably like ships passing in the night, uh, like balance in the body. You know, I, for my first 30 years in

practice, it was all about balance. How can I make you Mike Gervais a more balanced human being? Is that what you're trying to do in essence? Well, it was, yeah, it was until I read this anthropological study about humans and how everything in the universe that is mobile is out of balance. And so then what do we do if balance isn't the key? Well, it is the key. Moving towards balance is the key, Mike. Getting there is not the key it won't happen you're right-handed or left-handed you're more bright brain than left brain etc our heart bigger on the left than the right our rib cage shaped asymmetrically to fit those organs

on the left hand side so it only makes sense that we take it a step further and we look at this thing called the Fibonacci sequence or the golden ratio. Hey, right. You know what? This is going to be the first time on the pod that anyone's talked about that. And it's been something really important to me in my life. Oh, wow. And, you know, that golden ratio is fricking beautiful. It's the answer.

And it's been important to you. It's been how I create, invent, and I run my life that way. Okay. So I can't wait to show you some, like, I want to have you over at the house and show you some art that we have. And it's Fibonacci based. Beautiful. Most of our art is Fibonacci based. Yeah. I've got some sculptures, some moving sculptures. I'm going to send you that. I do the same thing. It's fascinating. So for folks that don't know it, they haven't been exposed to the golden ratio Fib higher level by training it in a way that hadn't been done before, by actually interfacing with the central nervous system through our skin and having that tell a message to the brain to allow the body to then react to that particular message. Go deeper one level on that for me. So when we use tape, people are familiar with the colorful tape you see on

everyone. Well, back in the 80s, that tape was only in Japan. And back in the 80s, there was no internet. So I was a medical director for the AVP back then. And I wanted to create something that would be more functional for the athletes. And for those of us that are old enough to know what Zonus tape is, this white tape that trainers used to cover our bodies with, they used to wrap us up like mummies. And so that means they were wrapping the tape circumferentially around the body. And the whole goal for that tape was to stop movement. And unfortunately, or fortunately, it stopped the movement that was aggravating the injury, but it also stopped the movement that was critical for what we call the physiological pump.

We want exchange, fluid exchange at a very efficient level when someone's healing or they won't heal as quickly as possible. We're talking about like the ankle tape or whatever. Yeah, that's a great. And you just wrap it to get the right. So it restricts mobility. Correct. It's the design of it so you don't re-injure or whatever, or even injure in the first place. But it doesn't get the right mechanism of the ankle to move, to pump blood through and back up and around through the heart to re-oxygenate, bring the good stuff back into it.

Exactly. Because when we have an injury, no matter what the injury is, it's literally like having a stroke in the body. Yeah. So I'm imagining you're not into ice. Is that right? Yeah. Well, that's a big, that's a, that's a quite a controversial topic. And so I, I, I'm not into ice and I haven't iced my athletes on a regular basis for almost five years now. And trust me as an athlete, myself growing up, I lived in ice.

Me too. And I don't use it now. I'm interested in cryo. We'll get to that in a minute, but like whole body cryo, I'm interested in it. The science is, you know, on the, on the edge. Yeah. There's a lot of back and forth on the science in there. And so, you know, we look at, you know, the psychological part of that too. That's where, yeah, that's a piece of it, right? Yeah, I know. Okay. Let's put a pin in that. We'll come back to it. So back to you, you stepped into this Kinesio tape world, early days, 1980, and you slipped in direct medical director of AVP. And so this is the professional volleyball tour on fire at that time. You got the legends playing, you got Karch Karai out there. Who are some of the big names?

Sinjin Smith, Randy Stokeless, Miked these are your buddies aren't there yeah tim hovland you know i mean yeah these guys were you know these guys were epic athletes i mean the top guys could have i think really done well in many different professional sports these are six foot four whatever 42 inch vertical guys in the sand nothing wasted nothing wasted efficiency lateral movements on point, like unbelievably skilled athletes that look like they're floating in sand and have great eye-hand coordination. Two man teams, two woman teams. Yeah. So they got great communication, no coaching. No, not back then. Self-motivated, self-driven, not a ton of money. So the heart

was right. The spirit of it's right. The intensity is right. And back then, let's not get lost that they were also ripping and running with some extracurricular, you know. They went hard, man. Yeah. They went hard. Because when I got into it, Mike, it was seriously for the soul of it.

In the 70s, you know, at Manhattan Pier, if you look back in some of the archives and look at those pictures. Manhattan Beach, California. Yeah, before it turned professional, guys were out there playing the whole weekend for a pair of trunks, maybe a dinner at the chart house. Maybe. And they'd play all day and they'd play eight to ten matches in a day. And it was two out of three to eleven back then. Yeah. So, okay.

So then this is part of your journey, right? We're backing into it.? We're backing into it and we're backing into it. And what I'm hearing is what I know you to be as a community minded professional that has the athlete at the center and you live that model. Now we're learning that you got there early, um, through this experimental tape, right? And then you came at some point in your journey and built a business and you built some product from, it sounds like the origins of the tape to get posture right. That's right. You pull people back in the right directions, the Kinesio tape model.

You pull them back and you start to go, wait a minute. This is me now kind of putting some pieces together for you. Wait a minute. We're not in balance. We're always out of balance let me see if i can correct some balances to get people into a more posturally aligned movement efficient efficient movement pattern and that's kind of maybe where the origins of your product came from yeah oh absolutely yeah it's just a natural genesis and and after a while the players are going hey man my skin's not digging this tape and i've got to wear it every day for two weeks can't you build something i can put on and take

off so this is where you came up with your first shirt design. Oh yeah. That very night, that was St. John Smith's comment. And that very night, St. John Smith is a legend as we just talked about. Big time winner in the ABP. Right. Yeah. Great, great coach as well. And so he said, well, why don't you create something for us that we can, you know, can wear traveling and do all this stuff? And I woke up at about 2.30 that night. I was on a road trip, had a wetsuit in my bag, and I'm 6 feet 180. These guys are a lot bigger. But I built basically the first idea behind the taping and turning the taping into something that wasn't a brace.

A product. Yeah, but a, yeah, but a support system that would do the same thing. But I was really down on braces, Mike, because, uh, there are certain needs for it for sure. And to this day, for sure. But what it does is it, it, it, it makes you dependent on the brace. It doesn't make you stronger. It literally makes you weaker. And that's not something I want with my athletes. Um, so I wanted them to understand that movement and healthy movement is one of the best things you can have, you know, so IntelliSkin, let me just describe the product now, the way I'm actually wearing it now. I wear it all the time. I wear it when I try, like there's a couple of compression that i wear yes and uh intelliskin is something i travel in it pulls my posture back and it's like it's like a lycra i don't polyester i don't know what the product materials are yeah yeah it's actually

um a lot of it's made out of jade stone uh i don't know what that means yeah yeah jade jade was what the ancient chinese warriors used to line their armor with. So it pulled the heat out of their body. It's even cooler than I thought. Isn't that wild? Yeah, that's even cooler. So it just does something about posture. Yes. Right?

And it pulls me into a more neutral, rested position. And what I know about that is that when I get my posture in the right way, what takes place for me is my central nervous system says, thank you. Yes. So you mean that we're not under duress right now? Your chin doesn't pop forward. You're not leaning forward, like to go to battle and I'm just sending a text message, you know, sitting on a plane. No. So I get to pull back a little bit. My central nervous system says, Hey, parasympathetic, let's go, which is the rest digest, you know, system in our, in our brain. And it says, says relax and so like

it is a game changer and yeah they call that a downregulation the nervous system yeah but but dude you this is you're you're smart because you seeded me with a couple products and i was like i love it but this but you the first product you gave me how long ago was that was that like gosh i don't know we've been we've been doing intelliskin for gosh almost 10 years yeah i was gonna say it was probably eight years about eight years ago and i was like look at this this is different watching your business grow and what you've done and the dent you've made in the field has been really cool oh thanks yeah thanks i appreciate that a lot we just uh you know we took what was out there which is basically what under armor did they found a

rash guard that we used in surfing forever and then started using it on football players because it's a slicker shirt and the compression is great. Anti-vibration with the muscles helps to save some endurance. We got some athletes on the team that really love IntelliSkin. Oh, that's great. Yeah, we just added some brains to it. We put that rash guard on steroids basically. And, and by interfacing with a nervous system, now we've created a system where you're getting stronger every time you wear it because you're actually having to do the work that the shirt cues you to

do. That's right. And then we've moved that down to the lower body now as well. It's not the most comfortable thing at first. It's like, Whoa, I feel restricted. But over time, my body craves it, you know? And, but, and then when I don't have it on is that I'm also reminded because it's like kind of always this little tug and I feel it. And when I don't have it on, I'm like, Oh yeah, get, get back into that position. Yeah. So perception, aware of your body parts in space and posture is one of the first things that we lose as students in school, being forward all the time and sitting. If I showed you a picture of a three or four-year-old moving versus a kid that's seven years old even, there's a tremendous difference. The three to

four-year-old moves perfectly, moves like we've trained them to move. When in fact, now what we're recognizing is that we're not teaching people how to move as movement specialists. We're actually allowing them to restore the movement that they had as kids. All right. So let's take, let's go right here right now. And I'm, I'm, I'm flowing from kind of how you got to this place, built a company, built a product. Actually, you're an innovator, you know, more than a businessman,

you're an innovator. Definitely. And now I'm a forced entrepreneur. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And you're a practitioner and you've got great diagnostic community minded skills to put the athlete at the center. And that's why I want to celebrate you today and learn, but this, I want to get to this piece right here on posture and movement. We're a wreck. Yeah. You agree? Yeah. We feed that wreck every day too. When I say we're a wreck, humans are a wreck right now when it comes to how we are feeding the sympathetic system, right? So our brain is incredibly powerful. And if we oversimplify it, we got the sympathetic, which is the on button and we got the parasympathetic, which is the recovery button rest digest is the parasympathetic. And then the, you know, gas go forward is a sympathetic way over grossly simplified. There's

at least two other systems that are always involved to the endocrine endocrine endocrine system. Um, and what's the other one? The cardiovascular system. Okay. So why are we a wreck? Why are we so beat up? And then what insights do you have to help us turn our body back into a functional tool rather than a distraction? Kind of started a long time ago with commercials. How do you spell relief? You know, and we grew up with that, right? R-O-L-E-I-D-S, right? Yeah. We've been a country that looks to treat the quickest and the fastest way possible without looking at, you know, if we have to stop in our day, it's one of the worst things we can do. So we're looking for that quick

relief and, and marketing has done a great job of putting that in our head. And I think that that's kind of probably the main thing. And, um, uh, how, how can we take your insights to help us? So we've been looking for symptom relief. That's a problem. Your field actually ch chiropractic services and skills, I don't know, for a long time felt like a relief mechanism. And I don't want to be a jerk about it, but like, you know, go in 15 minute adjustment and I feel better. That's not good. That's not good best practice anymore. That's not where it is. I know. No, it's selling a lie. Yeah. You're saying that's a lie. Yeah. That's a lie. You have to participate in your own healthcare. No one's more important for your healthcare than you. And you have to be, you have to be a warrior. Finding mastery is brought to you by momentous.

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the evening, it's a simple way to cue my body just to wind down. And when I'm locked into deep work, they also help me stay focused for longer without digital fatigue creeping in. Plus, they look great. Clean, clear, no funky color distortion. Just good design, great science. And if you're ready to feel the difference for yourself, Felix Gray is offering all Finding Mastery listeners 20% off. Just head to felixgray.com and use the code FINDINGMASTERY20 at checkout. Again, that's felixgray. You spell it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com and use the code FINDINGMASTERY20 at felixgray.com for 20% off. So that's why I want to teach us how right now to do that based on some postural alignment stuff. Like how can we be better? Cause posture is a wreck. Yeah. Right. Our sympathetic nervous system is on fire because of stress, because the environment

for so much and our posture is making it, I don't know, worse. Yeah. We're crushing it. And it's sure, you know, it, it, uh, your posture is basically, uh, screams volumes without words. And so you can really tell what's going on in a person's life just by their posture, just by their demeanor, how they hold themselves, how they, how they carry themselves. And the paradigm for fitness is broken. So I'm going to kind of start there because posture is about fitness. Can you teach them some of the cues of like how, when you see a posture, like how you know about

somebody before we get to the paradigm? Sure. I mean, I mean, if the, if the, if the shoulders are forward, the chest is down, uh, their oxygen level is low, uh, because they're compressing their, their lungs. They're not using their lungs properly. Yeah. Look, there's the, the, the quick paradigm that I'm pushing today. It's not mobility, stability, and strength because that's the paradigm that's out there right now in all of performance sports. I think we miss the boat if we miss the first piece. And the first piece is alignment. If your body, if your joints are not centrated.

What does that word mean? Joint centration is different for everybody. It doesn't necessarily mean right in the middle. It means right in your middle. Cool. Like when I'm trying to get somebody to balance where they're at today and perfect balance are the two end points. Your balance is somewhere in between. It's not fully 90, 90 balance that we're looking at right right or left side balance, never going to happen, not healthy. But your balance is somewhere between where you're at today and perfect balance. And finding that is your mission. And me being able to build a plan for you,

I may not be able to build out the whole plan, but I'm going to build out a plan that's going to last you probably a two, three years. And oftentimes that people that I work with don't even get to the strength portion of their paradigm for a couple of years. They have to do maintenance work on all the imbalances that they've already created. An elite athlete cannot go without lifting something heavy for two years. Yeah. Yeah. Right.

So that's the paradigm that's in our heads right now. So you're saying, Mike, you're wrong. I'm saying we have to investigate. Okay. We, because in my experience. I can't imagine though. Okay. Well, let's do this.

Let's do this. Let's take a Ferrari that just crashed into the wall and an athlete is the Ferrari. Okay. Cause we crash all the time. Yeah. So he crashed into the wall and an athlete is the Ferrari. Okay. Cause we crash all the time. So he crashes into the wall and the frame actually gets bent, but they got a race coming up the next week. And instead of getting the frame back into center, they paint it, they put on new tires, looks bigger, looks more like a monster. They put in a bigger engine, Mike. And then they go out and the car blows up. You cannot put load on something that's imbalanced or you will break it. And that is all I have really to say about

that. And as far as philosophically, why I do this and why I push this. I think in over time, my words will become a little more common in the athletic training space, but that's exactly why I won't load an athlete that's out of balance. It's really ethically against what I'm trying to accomplish. I really do understand the problems when you load an athlete over dysfunction. Okay. So throw on some, put some weight on the bar, whatever, whatever it is, and you load them and it's all torqued underneath. And so loading dysfunction is problematic. And at the same time, if you can't perform in a small little window, even close to consistent towards your potential, you're not asked to come back. So there's the inner crisis that's happening right now, not only for the teams, for the coaches, because people think that coaches are like the aggressive security.

Like they've got all the security in their life and then they can kind of beat up the athletes and kind of push them harder and whatever. That's not true. Right. Athletes, athletes and coaches, you know, support staff, we're all in this together, you know, meaning that there's a short window, especially for the athlete, there's a short window. And if you can't get it done, you're asked not to come back. Yeah. So how would you, how do you manage? Cause you know that you deal with this right now. Yeah. It's tough. I mean, you're on the surf tour right now. And so like, it's even more aggressive, right? Easier to get those guys get out of the weight room

than it is a football player. But yeah, but, uh, I've got a great example for you here. And I haven't done the research and I am a science-based guy, but here's a story that I'll share with you from Peter Park, who you know well, legend performance trainer on an earlier podcast that like seriously was one of the top performers ever. You have high shoes to fill right now that you brought him up. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. One of the top producers. Watch me dodge right back out of here real quick. But, uh, Peter did, uh, Peter had a, uh, has a system called, um, foundation training along with Dr. Eric Goodman and what they did with the USA water polo team and unbelievable faith by Terry Schroeder, the coach to do this. Terry Schroeder agreed to allow his water polo team not to lift for 60 days.

But before they got out of the gym, they took a PR on everybody. So they did the Olympic lifts and everybody got a personal best for that particular day. They recorded that. And then when they went off weights for 60 days huge i mean that's huge in any sport peter took these guys and eric took these guys and they did foundation training foundation training is very simply a system that strengthens the posterior chain or the back of your body from your it looks like a lot of hip movement stuff yeah a lot of he trained me for the um quote-unquote ultra i did that stand-up paddle from catalina island yes so hip hinge was huge for you big time yeah and he

was unbelievable yeah yeah like yeah i would not have been able to do it without him what's up peter thank you yeah yeah yeah well they uh um you know he he took care of lance armstrong for many many years and i he introduced me to lance i ended up taking care of lance for a while too and lance used to call peter half wheel because Cause Peter would always be a half wheel out in front of him, looking behind and telling me, get his butt in gear and move. Peter's motor is incredible. Peter's grinder is incredible. Yeah. Those stories that he shared about Lance and whatever. Right. So I think at some point, you know, I'm segwaying a little bit. I want to get to the good stuff with you, but Lance, Peter, and i are going to try to get together for a pod oh that's

going to be blast that's great yeah yeah yeah lance is quite quite a quite a manimal manimal okay back into it back into it your stuff yeah yeah so anyway 60 days 60 days off and then they did foundation training and again foundation training is about strengthening the back of the body and in the body there's a physiological rule called reciprocal inhibition. And simply what that means is if I'm going to strengthen my back, the front has to open. And so from a postural perspective and from a perspective for a swimmer who's got very tight chest muscles and has big shoulder problems. Every swimmer that I know of at elite level has gone through shoulder problems. And so Peter, you know, created this program, put everybody on it. And in 60 days, of course they measured everybody's posture much,

much better. But what was truly the measurement that made the most change was, or the kind of the most sense to me was that they went back into the gym and they were able to at least hit their PR and many of them hit over their PR. So the lesson is strength and length. Okay. If you get longer, you're going to get stronger. And if you get longer, you're also going to coordinate your brain to your nervous system, to your muscle with better communication, better synapses, better able to flow one movement or from one muscle to the next without interruption, which is like, you know, the difference between seeing a guy that can dance really, really good. And then maybe a white guy drunk at a wedding dancing. Okay. So, so give it, give me like three movements that you would hope everyone would do. Oh, great. Okay. Three. Because here's where I run into some challenges. I go to this world-class thinker

about whatever that world-class thinker. And if I'm not careful, I've got an hour and a half of stuff that I'm doing before I even get my heart rate. Like, you know if I'm not careful, I've got an hour and a half of stuff that I'm doing before I even get my heart rate. Like, you know what I mean? Like, so before I've touched a weight or done it before I've jumped on the surfboard. So, so what would you say are the essential three? Um, great question. Thank you for that. It's almost like we loaded this one up because, um, there's really only three areas in your body that you have to keep mobile to keep healthy. Come on. Yeah. Unbelievable. Right. So because, you know, look, I was a guy that didn't want to do my mobility training because it's what I needed the most. Okay. So

let me guess. Yeah. It's gotta be something in the hips. Yes. Something in the mid back. Yes. And then I'm going to go ankles. Jeez, you read my script. Yeah. It's ankle dorsiflexion. So the ability to flex forward on your ankle, we found to be a really critical measurement and predictability of injury in athletes. And it's the same thing with hips. Your hips have to be able to move forward, backwards, across your body, and then outside your body. And they all have to be able to move forward, backwards, across your body, and then outside your body. And they all have to be loose and mobile there. The next area is the mid-back, as you mentioned, right? You've got ribs attached. You've got all this stuff. It's armor there to protect your organs. Critical to keep that mobile. Now, if you keep your hips mobile,

well, again, there's this thing called joint stacking. And what that states is there are certain joints in their body that are built to be mobile, certain joints that are built to be stable. The ankle joint, that forward flexion, is built to be mobile. The knee joint, built to be stable. You don't want to stretch your knee, Mike. You want to stretch your ankle. You want to stretch your knee, Mike. You want to stretch your ankle. You want to stretch your hip. If the hips are loose, the ankle, or excuse me, the knee stays stable and the low back, even perhaps more importantly, also is stabilized. If you don't have hip mobility, the knee has to become more mobile.

Okay. So, okay so okay so look i got a left knee issue that i've struggled with yeah i got a right ankle thing yes that i've struggled with makes sense so far my mid back way too tight and my hips i can't sit indian style by any chance of the imagination yeah so i've got the reason i knew those three because those are the three where um surfing is a bad sport for all of those you sit in this really bad posture you know right and then when you actually are trying to get ready to paddle for a wave they got this flared thing our ribs pop out our mid back and low back are compromised like so i i know those three just by beating the three of them up and so so okay okay, go, go, teach. Let me hear where your solutions are here. And thank you, by the way. Yeah, it's my pleasure. Sure.

So those areas, if you're not mobile in those areas, you do have problems today, or you will have problems tomorrow. And the critical point is when you do have problems and you do have an injury to your knee, how many people work on the ankle and the critical point is when you do have problems and you do have an injury to your knee, how many people work on the ankle and the hip? Not that many. Those are the forward thinkers. If you go to a therapist and you go into that therapist with a knee problem or a rotator cuff problem, and the first thing that they do is focus on the knee or on the shoulder. Other than to get a diagnosis, you may not be in the right place. You have to look at what's happening above and below the injury to actually treat that injury effectively. I can cover up pain with an analgesic. We can do a surgery on a meniscus and repair that surgery, but it's going to come back

and it'll probably come back with a worse injury because you're really not dealing with the lack of mobility in the ankle and the lack of mobility in the hips. And if you don't do that, you're just going to be the walking wounded the rest of your life. I guarantee that. And I lived probably half of my life already that way. I was the guy that was pretty athletic, but I wasn't flexible. I wasn't mobile. And just for your listeners, there's a difference between flexibility and mobility. Flexibility is defined as the length of a muscle, whereas mobility is defined as the ability for that joint to move in all of its ranges of motion. Should the average healthy person be able to touch their toes? Well, I think it's a good measure and it's a measure of your hamstrings and your hamstrings are attached to your hips. So I think it's a good thing. Indian style. Yes. And yes to both of those,

but let me throw a caveat out. Most people don't stretch their hamstrings properly. They don't hip hinge when they stretch their hamstrings. They actually are curving forward from their low back. Your low back's not built to stretch that way. In fact, you can put many pounds of stress on your discs. Your discs are not joints. So when you stretch your hamstrings you want to push your hips back yes push slightly back knee yes right push your hips back yeah straight proper posture when you're doing it right and then slowly tilt forward and then what peter has us doing or me doing is like the arms up at like a 45 yes like in front like i'm squeezing like a like a little

red rubber ball you know, from grade school. And then just seeing how far we can just hold that. And I feel my whole body open up and lengthen. Is that what you're talking about? That's exactly what I'm talking about. And I'll tell you what, after, what is it, like 15, 20 seconds, like the whole body shaking. That's right. If you're doing it right.

Yeah. That's right. So I'm not just weak. No, no. It's really, I mean, you take the best athletes in the world and they're shaking all over the place if they're doing it right. Yeah, it's a really good one. And what's cool about that is Peter and Eric utilize and the foundation, you know, family at large utilize these things to warm athletes up before they compete. That's right.

I was blown away going out and watching the Supercross guys working with Peter and Peter training these guys. And before they go out to ride their 20 minute heat, these guys are so wet that they absolutely have to shower and then get into their leathers to go out there and compete. But what's so cool about this thing, and again, it speaks to, is it about weights? Is it about getting that bulk on you get more energized after doing a foundation uh workout than you did you would do in just about any other workout it actually provides energy because your breath is so important in it and that's another thing we should talk about is diaphragmatic yes we're gonna get you're not escaping that one with me for sure now but let but let's go back to the three, the three exercises. Okay. So like mechanically, what would they be? Yeah. So ankle dorsiflexion, you're going to get

on stairs. You're going to drop that ankle down below their heel, down below that stair level. You're going to do it first holding on, and then you're going to do it to the point where you can balance yourself and not, you have to hold onto the sides, which would be and then you're going to do it to the point where you can balance yourself and not have to hold on to the sides. Which would be – and we're going up and down? Yes, going up and down. Right. Yeah. So that's one way to do it.

There's also ways where you can put a strap around the lower leg, an elastic strap, and step forward and move into a lunged position. And what that does is it forces the tibia backwards and the ankle forward. So rubber band around both ankles? Rubber band around one ankle at a time, do a lunge forward with that. What's it attached to? Attached to the lower tibia. So just above the ankle. And then attached to a pole? Yeah, something stable behind you. And then step forward to put tension on that into a low

into a lunge into a lunge position and then knees are at 90 degrees right drop your drop your hips a little bit yeah and you can actually tap the other knee on the ground as you rock forward and that will actually help to your back to storsy flexion yeah got it okay so you're trying to open up the ankle the purpose of that is not to activate anything really other than the ankle yeah you're really just trying to open up that ankle. The purpose of that is not to activate anything really other than the ankle. Yeah. You're really just trying to open up that ankle and create separation, joint separation. How long does it take to open that up? That's a long one. That's probably going to take six to eight weeks to really get a really nice response on that. And then per exercise, is this like 10 seconds, 20 seconds? I do. I'm a guy that promotes little bits often. So seven times a day for a

minute or so would be great. You know, if you're really serious about this stuff, you have to provide the body with a new environment. Your body molds to everything that you do. It's doing exactly what you want it to do. When you have poor posture and you come in to see me, it's not because you had a bad day. It's because you've had bad years.

Your body is conforming to what you do. We're like a jello mold every day. And so look at your activities of daily living. When I treat an athlete, Mike, I treat them 24-7, 365. I've got to look at, like I said, what are they eating and thinking and doing? That's going to have major ramifications on our either having success or not. Eat, think, and do. Which one comes first? Well, you know, we're here with you. So think it's pretty darn important. No, it's really important. You've got to have the mindset to have all these other systems work. And because the mind

affects our physiology so greatly. And our physiology affects our mind. Yeah, absolutely. There's a system that goes back. I don't know that i could literally divide them up but i do know at least in my case in my history the mindset is so critical for me to be able to activate the rest of the stuff yeah i think it's upstream i really do yeah you know i think downstream is pain yeah you know and so but then pain sends signals back up to the brain and then when we feel that we think something you know so, so pain creates change. Yeah. And if it doesn't, then thank you for saying that for years, that thought is that why do people change is because of pain. Yeah. We're wired that way. And unfortunately, I think for some, uh, especially the generation that, that maybe perhaps we grew up in, I grew up in,

it's, uh, you know, it's, it's no pain, no gain. Uh, you know, get your ass back out there. You're big wuss. If you, if you can't pay, play through some of this pain, it's really critical to understand that, uh, that the pain is a signal for your body that it's calling out for you to make a change. So. Yeah. Brilliant. All right. Give me two more exercises. So, uh, the hip, yeah, yeah. The hip hinge. So, uh, the founder would be probably the best thing to start with for those that have tight hips, which is kind of what I just described. Yeah. The founder is, is learning how to, to actually hinge from the hips, actually use the hips in all our bending. When we squat, we squat a lot during the day. So learning how to hinge from the hips

creates a mechanism that protects the body, especially when you add the breath to it. And then the third area is the T-spine. So, you know, probably the simplest thing for everybody to do is to get a roller, you know, and mobilize the T-spine, just laying it between your shoulder blades, getting on your back. Laying it lengthwise. Yeah. Laying it lengthwise. And then opening. And opening that chest. Do you know Dr. Mike Clark? it lengthwise. Yeah. Laying it lengthwise. And then opening. And then opening that chest. Do you know Dr. Mike Clark? I don't. Okay.

Fusionetics, founder of NASM, did a business with Oprah in between. Like, I mean, he is a brilliant man. Okay. Dr. Mike Clark. What's up, Mike? And so he and I were talking the other day about a project and he's done a deep dive in the value of vibration and foam rolling. So he said, hey, listen, it's really clear. I'm going to pass on some insights that he has.

I don't know if you, you might go, oh yeah, that's old hat. But to me, it was new. This idea, foam rolling as you'll see people in the gym or whatever, just kind of rolling up and down on their IT band or their hamstrings or whatever. And he's like, it's, we did the research. That's, that's, it's a waste of time. So you want to go find the spot, sit on the spot, get some compression on the spot. You know, the thing that where you go, Ooh, I should get off that, but stay on it. And then gently roll after that and then move. So he goes upstream to say, you know, get on something where you're compressing, disinhibiting. I think I got it right. The compression disinhibits for a minute, right?

Inhibits, disinhibits. I don't know. Anyways. Probably inhibits initially. And then, and that causes the release of the inhibition after that. That's it. And yes. And then, then roll it just a little bit, but it's the, it's the staying on it that matters. So I'm thinking right now, like to take your, your gems and then Mike's, which is like foam roll or a little ball, do that before you want to open up your calves for a minute, just get on a spot, hold it. Sure. Maybe even mid back as well. Yes. You know, but you're saying, but you're, and but you're saying but you're and what you're saying is not necessarily rolling you're just saying get on something that is long to open you

up yeah and you can roll on it i'm all about rolling and i like the technique of compression on an area it's janet trevell's trigger point work is where all that information came from localized ischemia or compression on that area will stop blood flow initially that's right and then it'll flood and engorge the area once you release it. And another thing, is that why humans for thousands and thousands of years, like like to push on little pain points? Like we're stuck, like it's not that it makes it feel better, but we're stopping the blood flow and then the blood flows back in with all the good oxygen. Stimulate, don't irritate. Stimulate what? Stimulate, don't irritate. Meaning that we get on it long enough to create some type of stimulation, but if we stay on there too long, you're going to irritate it.

Yeah. I've walked off a therapy table. Like it was too hard, too long. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, anybody with a low back pain that's gone in for a massage and can't get off the table can relate to that. Yeah. Yes. But, you know, what's wrong with me that I don't like to tell somebody that's too hard? You know, I don't know. Because you're gauging everybody else as part of your reality. And that's not who you are.

You know, everybody has a different sensory system. You see this a lot though so i'm not necessarily asking for me a great a great analogy is that look when you put on that compression shirt that i created yeah uh it might be too much for you so i've created different levels of compression because everybody's wired differently i mean look at the autistic kids you want to give them a big hug they love that that. That's wonderful for them. That's how they're wired. Really? But you give some people, even some people don't like to be touched.

Where'd you learn that? I mean, you can look at the physiology of what happens with autistic kids. It's, it's in there. I mean, I read it because, uh, they, I read it. Um, uh, when I, when I was looking at materials that, that kids with cerebral palsy and autism used to help them communicate better with, with their environment, with kids with CP, they would put them in these vests and strap them up so that they could actually sit up and relate to the other kids. And they love that.

They love that feeling of that compression on there. And so that's where this information comes from. That's where I've kind of gleaned it from. And a lot of this is kind of on the edge. So I'm very, like I said, science-based guy, but sometimes it's hard to wait for science to catch up. So you take physiology and you take the rules of physiology, and then you can read into certain things and kind of create not your own paradigms, but add one and one to create

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That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash finding mastery. When athletes work with you, what do you hope they say? I hope they say that, look, I'm committed to making this work. You, Tim, are committed. That Dr. Brown is committed or that the athlete is committed? Yeah, I'm looking to them and I'm hoping they're committed because this is not going to be a party. You know, if you're going to work with me, we're going to accomplish something. And to accomplish something, it requires work.

And work is defined as moving something from one place to the other. And if they're not ready to do that, if they think I'm going to deliver them health, man, they read the wrong book. You know, it's not going to happen. It doesn't happen. I can lead you to that water, but again, you know, proverbial can't make you drink. And that's what healthcare is about. You can give people great ideas and great tools to work with, but unless they implement them into their life on a regular and frequent basis, it changes, not going to happen. Why do you think chiropractic services

have had such a bad rap? Well, I mean, you know, you got a couple of different camps to look at. You got the medical camp to look at and they're protecting their field. And that was kind of the, you know, kind of the setup when I was in school. MDs you're talking about? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. In the medical paradigm, everybody's kind of protecting themselves and they're also, you know, science-based, but then when you look at, you know, what's going on in the drugs, uh, the, the, the drug industry and everything else, is that really science-based? Uh, it's arguable. So, uh, I think that was big. And I think all the claims that chiropractors made were not scientific oftentimes. And they think that they can see somebody 60 times to fix their spine. That doesn't happen all the time. And if you can't

do a double blind study to prove that you shouldn't be saying that. And I think that that's probably what happens is that, you know, it's a business thing. So economics plays into it. Uh, biopsychosocial certainly plays into it. Um, and, and again, that's, uh, if you can't explain your way through something, if you're saying that your spine is sitting on top of a nerve, for instance, which is when I was in school, what we were taught, dude, if the spine sitting on top of the nerve, you're not going to come to see me. Yeah. That's like a different, that's a's that's a really serious problem i'm laughing because that's crazy right we know that now but then when you when we flash back i don't know 80 years ago i don't know when the exact for it no it's longer than that there was a thought that people that

were hysteric women had a condition called hysteria this is way back now okay so i'm making sure that i'm putting the proper little caveat here it was way back it was not me i'm not endorsing this this is where this is like legitimately nuts what i'm about to say is that they thought that their uterus was wandering around in their body and it was creating a state of hysteria. They didn't know what to do. They couldn't look inside with the right diagnostic tools and they know that every 20, 30 days a woman actually bleeds. And so why would there be blood? Well, we didn't understand the mechanisms. So this is a physiological medical, not medical. This is a physical condition that's taking place. The people that were responsible for this drives me nuts. What I'm

about to say, the people that were responsible for physical insights and science when they didn't understand it, you know what they said? Well, it must be psychological. Right. Come on. I mean, you know, we can't, we can't do this. We cannot do it. We have to stand back and say it is medical. It is, I'm sorry. It is physical. It is a psychological. It is it's all of them. Like we are ecosystems. We're not even a system. We're an ecosystem where there's living biological dynamic systems at play that we can't see. And just cause we can't see them doesn't mean it's not real. It doesn't mean it doesn't have real impact on the other two systems. Yeah. I think that there's a, uh, a pretty good answer for why we think that way. And that is that we learn,

we learn medicine or chiropractic or whatever specialty that you're involved in. We learn it in a reductionist way. We learn it in pieces. And I think that that's why it's so difficult for everyone to get on the same page and recognize that, Hey, we're all in this battle together. You know, and I had a stomach problem. I got in Nicaragua about five years ago, Mike, and this was what really set this in stone for me. Surf trip, yeah. Pop oil? Something like that. I was in Colorado, I was down there in Nicaragua. It's one of my favorite spots to surf in the world.

Unreal spot, right? Yeah. So unfortunately, there were some bugs down there that found their way into my system. And so I ended up having what they call SIBO. And SIBO is small intestinal bacterial overgrowth. Had never heard of it before, you know. How'd you know you had it? I couldn't get out of bed for about three weeks and I'd never had that happen to me in my life. And what it is, is there's a bug that lays into your small intestine and it off gases methane

and methane paralyzes the nerves in your stomach lining and doesn't allow for the cleansing wave to happen. So the bacteria take over, and the small intestine is where all your nutrients are really absorbed. You know, your vitamins, your minerals, carbohydrates, all that stuff's absorbed there. So all these guys were having a party down there, and I was getting none of the energy and none of the benefits from the food I was eating. And so I went through, you know, at some point you got to go, okay, well, this natural medicine stuff needs a booster for sure. I need to go see, you know, somebody at GI or somebody that could help me. And so what I recognized through all that, long story short, was that

the ear, nose, eyes, throat person doesn't talk to the internist, and the internist doesn't talk to the GI specialist, and the GI specialist doesn't talk to the urologist ever. They are not in the same camp. They don't communicate the same studies. They don't recognize that everything has to work together. Or if they do, they don't want to put their economics into peril by exposing all this information that could really help these other guys do their job better. You know, it's all about the patient for you and I, Mike, but apparently not for the rest, much of the community.

So I found that, again, the reductionist thing, right? Everybody learned their piece, they did their piece, but they never, ever intercommunicated with the other parts. Well, that's what happens in our body sometimes, is that we see somebody that knows something about something, but doesn't know everything enough to really get you into a place that's going to get to the cause and really allow the systems to work together. And so because of that, I think that's why our system is really a big part of why our system is broken and why chiropractic is so foreign to an internist and vice versa. What is your training? My training is… What's the formal training to be a chiro? Yeah. So you do like a pre-med to get in. You've got all the requirements.

Undergrad, pre-med? Undergrad a pre-med, you know, to get in, you got all the undergrad pre-med undergrad pre-med. And then, uh, and then you go to three and a half years chiropractic college straight through no breaks. And, um, and you come out with a doctor chiropractic degree. And then what is the training after the degree? Well, you do your internship at that point. No, you're not what your license, once you get your degree, but you have to pass a national board and a state board. And it's a bear. It's a monster.

So was there a point where Kairos would have like a non-college two-year degree and get licensed? Was that something that was never the case? No, not that I'm ever aware of. No, certainly. So I went to the wrong Cairo. Yeah. You know, I, you know, I was influenced by, and I think he's phenomenal and he was big time in my, uh, in my life was Dr. Joe Horgan. Yeah. And I think that's kind of how we met was through Joe talking about you so much. And, and Joe is, I was on his table a lot. Joe's a hero of mine because

when I was, uh, I was going to go to medical school. Okay. That was my deal. I was going to be a medical doctor, but I was going to get into natural care. And then I met Dane Selznick on the pro beach volleyball tour. He was world champion back in the day. And, um, he'd always talk about this guy he'd be going to see see and he's a chiropractor but he didn't adjust bones he just did work did muscle work and it just intrigued me because he was first on the scene yeah with that oh yeah for sure he created he created this system along with a couple other docs and um you know and part of his system went into art right and then there was another guy dr levy that did another system of neuromuscular reeducation.

And what it was was just phenomenal soft tissue work. And Joe is probably the most ethical guy that I know of in our profession and probably in any profession. He's just an incredible guy. A full-on cosign that. Yeah, he created a system, a four-year post-doctorate system. If you wanted to become skilled in the art and science of what he did in soft tissue, then it's going to take you four years. Four years after the post-doctorate.

Post-doctorate. He'd pay you 50 grand a year, but you're going to work 60 hours a week and you're going to learn this system. You're going to learn his system of examination. And I'll tell you, Michael, he might be, sorry, go ahead. We're probably going to say the same thing. One of the best diagnosticians. Yeah. Yeah. His exam is an hour and a half, maybe two hours. And who does that these days? And when I say one of the best diagnosticians, I mean, across medicine, across medicine. Yeah. He's my litmus. You know, if I've got a real

question on an athlete, uh, I sent him to Joe. Okay. So the point of this part of the conversation, we're reminiscing about how wonderful a friend of ours is, but the point of this part of the conversation for me is the importance of having game shifting, big thinking people in our community that are smarter, are deeper, are longer into the craft that we can bounce ideas off of, you know, we can be influenced by and hopefully add that same level of influence because we're taking the craft with that same delicate intensity. And so, you know, that's what this part of the conversation for me is like, that is essential in the becoming to have that community. And I know how, obviously how important community is for you. Okay. Let's, there's so much I want to do.

How did you, can we rewind for a minute? How did you get, tell me about like early life? Early life, grew up in Newport beach,port Beach, the rough streets of Newport Beach. It was hell, Mike, I'm telling you. So far, you know, how many Mercedes were in the parking lot? Yeah, it was pretty funny in that sense. What did mom and dad do? My dad was a dental technician. So back in the day, they used to hand build dentures and crowns and all that stuff.

And so that's what my dad did. My uncle was a, a dentist for celebrities, you know, Johnny Carson, Joey Bishop, all those guys. So my dad made their teeth and all that stuff. Okay. So you were around professionals, right? And you grew up with like an appreciation for craft. And then you were also, your uncle was also in the world of people influence. Right. So you probably felt familiar when you were comfortable, at least when you met your first world champion. Cause you, yeah, it was more of a curiosity than it was, uh, you know, oh my gosh, you know, I'm vapor locked right now. What was high school like? Uh, high school was my, my parents were religious.

So it was, it was a, it was kind of a difficult time for me because it wasn't something that I was into. I was with all the due respect for my parents. Um, I had a big problem with religion early on and it's bias and it's, and it's seeking power and all those things. Why did you see that? I have no idea. What were your friends like? My friends were very diverse. I realized early on that everybody had something to offer, no matter what they looked like or what they did. I don't know. I really don't know. Maybe my grandmother.

My grandmother is arguably the nicest person that has ever been hatched on this earth. And she'd give a stranger her house if they asked for it. So you saw compassion? I saw compassion. Empathy? You saw that from your grandmother? Yeah. I mean, and growing up in Newport, that's not what you see a lot. But whenever I was around my grandmother, it radiated off her. It was such a strong contrast to everything else around me that I was envious and wanted a piece of that when did you can you recall a moment in your life when you said when you're looking back when you say you know if it wasn't for that I wouldn't be the man I am today now you could take this one or two ways I'm gonna watch which way you take it but like you can take this in a

lot of different directions you know for sure but there's one or two basic camps. But if you answer that question, where do you go? Ah, shoot. You know, I've, I've just got this, you know, a lot of flashbacks going in front of my eyes right now. And, uh, uh, maybe ask that question one more time, if you would, Mike. Yeah. What's happening for you? I will you would mike yeah what's happening for you i will ask it but what's happening for you what's that what's happening for you right now oh yeah just there's so much stuff going so are you a thinker or a feeler do they integrate right now uh yeah i feel first you feel first and then what are you feeling right now when you're searching for the thinking part of it? I think that there's so many little things that come to mind that kind of create the answer. And where do you feel it?

I feel it in my heart. And then what is that predominant feeling? It's warmth and love for people that have given me the opportunity to learn. Okay. Cause you got quiet. You kind of, you, you pulled back in a little bit and that's warmth and love for you. Probably retrospect. Is that how much of that is you not wanting to say person a or event B because you don't want to exclude others. A lot of that, a lot of that. So is knowing you, I'm imagine that you don't want to just highlight one or two things at the exclusion of others. That's correct. So is this more of a, like fear of abandoning others that

have been important as opposed to like, I want to celebrate the one or two. How does your model internal model work? Yeah. I just think that, uh, you know, I want to celebrate everybody, you know, and I, I, I, and that's why this question is like really cool because it's not so much what it was, the mechanics of what you're about to say is cool. Right. But actually the process of you figuring it out is to me is the thing where I start to go. So that's how he works. Right. So, okay. So that's why I'm going to take a leap of faith here. That's why you're such a community minded professional is because everybody's important. You see the good in others and you have such regard for other people in the helping you become you

that even asking that simple question, what's the time or place or person? And you're like, oh my God, it's everybody. I don't want to let anyone off the hook. You're like, it's everybody. So you are, that's where the community I think comes from for you. I think I just got shrunk. Yeah. Yeah. No, I think you got expanded. Yeah. Okay. Is that, is it uh close to right or yeah i feels really right it does feel right and then so let's let's talk about fibonacci for a minute all right yeah so can we jump over to that like how that why that's a value to you and where you're going with that so the body is made up of all these different numbers and fibonacci's sequence is part of that makeup.

And Fibonacci's sequence, if you look it up, it's 0 plus 1 is 1, 1 plus 1 is 2, 1 plus 2 is 3. And that's how it works out. 3 plus 2 is 5 and so forth. And what that number ends up becoming is pi. And so, you know, and Pi's circumference of the circle, um, but what's wild and fascinating about this and where I really took a big leap is, is that the body parts are measured in Fibonacci, like your finger, your, you know, your phalange has all these parts. It goes three, five, seven, 13, you know, et cetera. So, or three, five, eight, 13, um, which is the smallest digit on your finger correct is three whatever units centimeters the next one is five the next one in length is eight if you have a

normal right you know some of the elite athletes we work with if you got marfan syndrome you got yeah right okay so those units uh there's a a balance there and then it's the same, like with our, uh, hand to forearm to, uh, upper limb. Right. Right. All those ratios. Right. Yeah. And it's the same with, uh, what is it? Foot to, to, um, lower leg to upper leg. Right. Right. Right. And then, and then the same applies to the face. The face. And the face is really interesting. It's been used in architecture. Fibonacci is in architecture art. And Leonardo da Vinci used Fibonacci a lot.

And that's how he defined beauty. That's exactly right. In fact, how one side of the face lined up versus the other. But he would askew it just a little bit, which was interesting. Right. So that's where i was like like when we think about masters da vinci's like is he is he the one he might be you know like so i've done such a deep dive on like this stuff like it's crazy yeah it's really crazy so fibonacci is in

beauty it's in the natural order of things yes and it's also when we find it in um not only nature but we find in architecture and structures it's's really interesting. But how do you apply it? organizes its energy is in its posture. No position gives the body more energy, more potential than posture, whether you're an athlete or you're working at a computer. Our systems communicate better when we have posture. Everything works at its ideal level, right? Our breath works right. Our alignment's right. The body's under the least amount of stress. It works best in the field of gravity when we're in posture. And posture is not just a static thing. It's a movement thing too. So training people how to move in posture is critical too. That's why we never learned that growing up. So these athletes that go out there and have all these great potentials genetically

haven't even touched how good they can get if they were able to put all these systems together. Okay. So you're saying Fibonacci is this natural order of things to express energy. Yes. Whether it be a snail ratio, like a snail is a Fibonacci expression. How a flower unfolds is Fibonacci. You cannot have a wave break unless the formula for Fibonacci hits the sand, the wind, the swell, and all that at the right time. Same with our ears, right? The inner part of our ears, the Fibonacci ratio the sand, the wind, the swell, and all that at the right time. Same with our ears, right? The inner part of our ears, the Fibonacci ratio. Yeah.

So, okay. So you're saying yes, yes. There's one more thing that I want to, especially for our audience that may have a lot of athletes in them. The body is set up in Fibonacci. If you look at how muscles are formed around a joint, purely Fibonacci, the muscles are formed in a spiral to allow a spiral motion as doctors why is that a um why is that ratio how is that ratio i this isn't brand new to me how is that muscular

expression also fibonacci the angles of the muscles around every joint are in a spiral. We measure as physicians, we measure movement in three planes, coronal, sagittal, frontal. But if we take it a step further, Mike, and we get a little bit out there, those three movements allow for the spiral to take place. Those three planes, excuse me. And so for me, if we're we're looking at you know if it walks like a duck quacks like a duck i mean this is built into our system have you measured that or has there been measurements that that is the yeah that is a golden ratio so i mean there's there's one part how your shoulder one part posterior one tart lateral or whatever those and you know you can look at them as an anatomist and look at, oh God, they're linear

or they're going horizontal. But they're not. They are, but if you keep looking deeper, there's ones that are deeper levels that have these different angles at them. But it's the ratio between those three planes that is the Fibonacci ratio? It is the spiral that's created in the end game

that is the Fibonacci spiral. Okay. How Bruce Lee punches somebody is with torque. Yes. It's not straight. Torque gives you power. But there's a ratio? There's a ratio.

What's the ratio between the three? Well, that's where I'm stuck on. What is the ratio? Yeah. All I can tell you is that if you look at the anatomy of the body and you look at how the muscles set up around a joint in almost every joint you're going to see that it's set up so that it can work on a spiral like oh you're saying that that's what it is you're saying it's the end spiral has the relation has the ratio relationship between the three

planes got it okay yeah much like about that yeah no no that's me trying to figure it out here with relationship between the three planes. Got it. Okay. Yeah. Much like that. Yeah. No, no, no. It's me trying to figure it out here with you. And much like a snail shell is a spiral. That's how we got to that. That's correct. Okay. All right. And then you took a leap from, well, if that's the natural order of things that we can't even understand, how does it relate to posture? And you're saying it's energy expression. And if we get, is there a ratio in posture or are you just saying I put posture as like a kingpin? Like I have a high value. Your posture is going to be different than mine. We're just built differently. You're, you're, you know, when I, that's why I say balance is a joke because nobody's joints are built

perfectly symmetrically. If I looked at how your hip joint joins into the acetabulum and I look at somebody else's, it's going to be different. And so therefore your hip potential movement in that hip is going to be different. And so if I look at that on an x-ray and I see that, I see you try to cross your legs and you can't cross your legs, nine out of 10 times I'm going to say it's a mobility problem. But that 10th time is probably because the shape of your bone won't allow for that to happen. So we have to be aware when we're examining people that nobody is built in this perfect little shape. Can you talk about the impact on technology to posture, to breathing, to the way that we engage in life? Yeah, I think it's taken us downhill. It's taken us in the wrong direction. Movement is life. Life

is movement. Wherever we're on our devices, we're not doing that. And the postures that we put ourselves in to be able to operate these devices absolutely should be illegal. It's a crime, the injuries that are being created over time by us being on these devices. You know, we sit 9.4 hours a day on average in the United States, and most of that time is spent on devices. We only sleep a little over seven hours on average in the United States. So there's not a whole lot of time to be active, but we have to stay away from the devices and put them in a place where the majority of your hours are not spent on those things during the day. Limit yourself as much as you can. Do intense work on those things, but do short work. We had a great chance to meet with the gal that ran NASA's, let's see, what was it? Jan Verkanos was the head scientist at NASA for

ergonomics. So when guys landed from coming off of the moon or from outer space, she studied the effects of, of gravity coming back into gravity. And she wrote a great book about, um, sitting is killing us. And what she wrote was that for every time, every hour you spend in a chair, um, excuse me, let me take that back. For every 20 minutes you spend in a chair, you can't get your health back after what it's done to you. So every 30 seconds, or the first 30 seconds that after you sat down, electricity turns off in your lower body. It's immeasurable. And what happens with that is over a period of time, it creates a degeneration that our bodies can't regenerate. And so every time we go sit for eight hours, even if you go run a 10 K after that eight hours, you can't make up for the, the, um, the negative effects on health it's made. So bottom line on that is if you're working an eight hour day, she says to get up 32 times and move around. So move around for at least a minute. If you don't do that,

you're going backwards. And that's why they call it death by chair. Yeah. It's a new smoking. It is a new smoking. Yeah. Sadly. Okay. Let's jump into breathing. Yeah. So I'd love to hear your insights on breathing. Yeah. Well, a lot of it, especially recently comes from brian mckenzie's camp and i know you guys have spoken and he's just an an icon for me and in the ability to

link a lot of these training mechanisms definitely systems thinker yeah yeah and so you know breath thought you know the 1999 uh nobel prize for medicine was won by three guys that figured out what happens when you nose breathe. And that was a super fascinating hole to dive into. And what happens real briefly is that when we breathe in through the nose, we have this gas stored in our sinuses called nitrogen oxide. And the only way to access that gas is to breathe through your nose. And what that gas does is multifold. First thing it does is it sterilizes your air. So breathing through the mouth, we look at the mouth like an incubator. We look at the nose like a filter.

And so when we sterilize that air, the next thing that happens is because it has nitrogen oxide, it allows us to vasodilate down deep into lobes of our lungs. So we're able to absorb more oxygen and so that's critical right the other thing that it does is when we breathe through our nose is it puts pressure against the back of our throat and that's where the vagus vagal nerve or vagus nerve lies and when we compress wondering nerve right when we compress that nerve that's what signals our body to go into parasympathetic that the tone of the of that nerve is really important oh baby yeah you know and it's and there's ways to get at it you can get at it by

thinking you can get at it by breathing you can get at it by movement and you can also get at it from the gut so we get all our systems are involved in the in the that vagal tone and you know getting that thing right is really important yeah and so i don't know of the tool where we can measure the tone i don't know i don't know that tool and i know that you can measure it i haven't ever been able to to do it yet and But home device, if there's someone out there that wants to talk about cracking open a home device, you know, for tone, that'd be, that'd be helpful. Next generation. Yeah. Okay. So, so tongue in the back. And the reason tongue in the back is really important as well is because it is a rest digest position. Right. And so that's a big deal. You know,

when it's forward, there's an aggressiveness and so breathing, um, opening up. So when you get your chin back over your chest, if you will, or how do you say it? You're not, no, your chin back over your spine, if you will, that it, it can help push the tongue toward the back of your interesting. Yeah. Yeah. And those that breathe out through their mouth with the tip of their tongue on the roof of their mouth, which many yoga practitioners do, that also creates that pressure against that vagus nerve there. Yeah. And so you know who I learned a bunch of that from is our friend from the WSL. Which one is that? John? No, no. Medical director.

Oh, yeah, yeah yeah yeah chris yeah you know dr prosser's done some really cool stuff on that breathing work as well yeah yeah with his dns and and so forth and then you know fortunately had the the great uh well have had the great fortune to know mike rentala as well who's a master teacher in dns and just one the nicest, most humble guys. Both of those dudes are legends. And they're great, right? Yeah, for sure. Okay, good. So then what are you doing for practice on breathing or recommendation practices?

Yeah, so there's lots of different types of breaths you can take to create different physiological reactions and responses. And so I've been really into a system called Gymnastica Natural over the last few years. And I'm going to take a certification course, the first one for movement and health practitioners, movement specialists and health practitioners with Alvaro Romano, the guy that created it. And I feel super blessed with that. But he taught me a breath called a recovery breath that when you're really tired or out of breath, where you can get your breath back and normalized within 30 seconds. And so that's a different type of breath, though it's a nose breath. When you breathe out, you compress in with the abs. And within 30 seconds, I mean, and it was real interesting. Through your nose?

In through your nose, right. So you're getting all the gas out. Yeah. He's working to get all. So what happens is, you know, when we were in school, when I was in school, carbon dioxide was the enemy. And what we've learned with Brian's work, McKenzie's work, et cetera, is that carbon dioxide is critical. And what carbon dioxide does is actually is a key to open the muscle to allow the oxygen in. So what we learned in school was get rid of that stuff. But what Wim Hof and McKinsey and others like them have taught us that it's kind of an asset if you learn how to use it properly.

Brilliant. Can you talk about the impact on technology to posture, to breathing, to the way that we engage in life? Yeah, I think it's taken us downhill. It's taken us in the wrong direction. Movement is life. Life is movement. Wherever we're on our devices, we're not doing that. And the postures that we put ourselves in to be able to operate these devices are absolutely should be illegal. It's a crime, the injuries that are being created over time

by us being on these devices. You know, we sit 9.4 hours a day on average in the United States, and most of that time is spent on devices. We only sleep a little over seven hours on average in the United States. So there's not a whole lot of time to be active, but we have to stay away from the devices and put them in a place where the majority of your hours are not spent on those things during the day. Limit yourself as much as you can. Do intense work on those things, but do short work. We had a great chance to meet with the gal that ran NASA's, let's see, what was it? Jan Verkanos was the head scientist at NASA for ergonomics. So

when guys landed from coming off of the moon or from outer space, she studied the effects of gravity, coming back into gravity. And she wrote a great book about sitting is killing us. And what she wrote was that for every time, every hour you spend in a chair, excuse me, let me take that back. For every 20 minutes you spend in a chair, you can't get your health back after what it's done to you. So every 30 seconds or the first 30 seconds that after you sat down, electricity turns off in your lower body. It's immeasurable. And what happens with that is over a period of time, it creates a degeneration that our bodies can't regenerate. And so every time we go sit for eight hours, even if you go run a 10K after that eight hours, you can't make up for the negative effects on health it's made. So bottom line on that is if you're working an eight-hour day, she says to get up 32 times and move around.

So move around for at least a minute. If you don't do that, you're going backwards. And that's why they call it death by chair. Tim, I want to thank you for being a stakeholder in the value of connection and empathy and compassion and community and a person who takes their craft and way of living and integrates the two all to for the the service of others so i want to thank you for taking the time to spend um on this conversation but also just what you've done in the industry. Oh, thanks. I feel like we just got the conversation going and I want to keep it

going. Hopefully we'll have a round two. Yeah. I'd love to do that with you. What are some things that you want to talk about that we didn't get to today? Oh, shoots. God, there's such a world, you know, that, that, that needs to be expressed out there. And I think it's about participation and, and it's about responsibility. And I think everyone has to really kind of put their, their big girl, big boy pants on and take responsibility for their own health. And to, if you're not in the right healthcare system, you know, you've got to do the research. You've got to look out there. There's a system out there that's for you. There are genuine people out there that truly want to help you that are in this for the right reason. I think trusting your gut and listening to your gut when you meet these professionals is a great way to go.

But recognizing that posture is under your power, learning how to breathe is under your power, and those are the first two things on the list. If I never did anything for anybody, but helped them with those two things, Michael, I think that we can make the world a little safer, a little better place, a little happier place. It just makes you feel better when you're healthier. And that's something that I think that you've dedicated your life to. And certainly I have as well. And there's so many others out there that have, it just, if you want it bad enough, you'll find it. And, uh, if there's any ever anything I can do to help anybody out there, um, you know,

please feel free to email me or text. And I'm happy to at least, uh, uh, point you to the right road. All's we need out there most of the time is a map. You know, a lot of you out there have the desire, but you don't have the map and we're here to provide that for you. Where can people find you? Don't give your home phone number or cell phone number. Don't do it that way.

Where can people find you? Yeah, you can find me at tbrown at intelliskin.net. Spell Intelliskin. Yeah, that's a challenge. I-N-T-E-L-I-S-K-I-N. Say it again. I-N-T-E-L-I-S-K-I-N. Say it again. I-N-T-E-L-L-I-S-K-I-N.net. Yeah.

T Brown. T Brown. Appreciate you, brother. Appreciate you more, man. Thanks. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're listening. Also, if you haven't

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