Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Elevate Your Thinking, Elevate Your Life | 15x Best-Selling Author, Jon Gordon

Episode Date: August 16, 2023

When you talk to yourself, are you listening? What are the thoughts that dominate your thinking? Do they empower you? Elevate you? Connect you to something bigger than yourself? Jon Gordon believes that how you answer these questions is critical to how you show up as a leader, a teammate, a spouse or a friend. Simply put: your performance and your relationships move in the direction of your strongest thoughts. He’s best known as an author, but Jon doesn’t just write books. He lives his life making sure the principles he values most reach and inspire audiences of all kinds, all over the world. So it’s not a surprise that his 28 books – including 15 best sellers and 5 children’s books – hold universal truths that have been tested and embraced by Fortune 500 companies, hospitals, professional and college sports teams, school districts and individuals alike. In his new book, “The One Truth: Elevate Your Mind, Unlock Your Power, Heal Your Soul,” Jon extols the concept of oneness and its power to help you see life through a lens of confidence, clarity, unity and strength.   His passion and positivity are truly contagious and he has so many insights around how to transform our thinking in order to unlock the greatness in our teams, our organizations, our relationships and ourselves._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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look at all the medications. We spend billions. We don't like to feel pain, but you have to go through the pain process in order to actually heal. Okay, welcome back or welcome to the Finding Mastery Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Michael Gervais. By trade and training, a high-performance psychologist, and I am so thrilled to welcome back John Gordon to the podcast for this week's conversation. When you talk to yourself, are you listening? What are the thoughts that dominate your thinking? Do they build you? Do they support you? Do they

connect you to something bigger than yourself? And John believes that how you answer these questions is critical to how you show up in the world. Simply put, your performance and your relationships move in the direction of your strongest thoughts. Now, John is best known as an author, and he has an impactful new book that I want you to check out. It's called The One Truth. Elevate your mind, unlock your power, and heal your soul. It just came out, so I encourage you to go check it out

right after this conversation. But John just doesn't write books. He lives his life making sure the principles he values most reach and inspire audience of all kinds, like those that are running corporations and those that are in the trenches doing whatever it is that matters to them. And it's not a surprise that his 28 books, 28 books, including 15 bestsellers and five children's books, hold insights that have been braced by Fortune 500 companies and hospitals, professionals and college support teams, school districts, and of course, individuals alike.

His passion and positivity, they're contagious. He's focused now on how to transform our thinking, to unlock the greatness in our teams, organizations, our relationships, and ourselves. John was one of the original guests on Finding Mastery, once back in 2015 and then again in 2017. And I'm excited for you to listen to this one. It is special. Now, if you want more context on John's origin story, of course, go check out the first two

appearances. Now, with that, let's jump right into this week's conversation with John Gordon. John, it's great to see you and to have you back on. It's been, you know, it's since 2017 since we last did this. Like it's hard to believe time has flown by that fast and God, it is great to see you. Great to see you. I can't believe it's been that long. It's been like a lifetime. So many things have happened. The pandemic. I mean, just so many things have happened since the last time we talked. It's like we've gone through a lot. We've grown a lot. We've learned a lot. And yet it's great to come back and see an old friend. In what ways have you grown?

Like when you look back since the last time we met and I really hope that, you know, folks that are listening will go back and listen to those two conversations that we had because they're so rich and deep about, you know, how you've become a prolific writer and a deep thinker. And so, but like, how have you grown since 2017? If you're not growing, as you know, you're dying. And if I'm the same person I was in 2017, then that should be a big concern for me and everyone in my orbit, everyone in my life. But I really have grown so many ways as a father. I think as a husband, as a person. My son, during the pandemic, really struggled like a lot of young men.

And we had to bring him home from college. We had to bring him home during the quarantine. He took off of school for a year, didn't know if he was going to go back, struggled with his mental health. And it was during that time, Mike, that I wasn't traveling. I wasn't speaking a lot. And so for the first time, this young competitive tennis player who was always doing tournaments and I was always on the road speaking, now we're both at home. And my wife was spending more time in LA with my daughter who had just moved out there after college.

And then she's basically shut down. And so it was me and my son home a lot together. And I grew so much during that time. And in terms of just listening, not always pushing, not driving, just listen and being there for him and just knowing what he was going through and the experiences and the challenges that he had when he was younger and those things were coming up. And so I just feel like we healed a lot during that time.

And I learned to be someone who really listened to others. I had so much more empathy after that. I saw what people are going through when they have challenging times and you see it firsthand. And so just being there, listening, loving, and with no expectations, with no driving, because I was always like this dad was pushing my son, my kids to be the best they could be. Now I just wanted them to be happy and whole and healthy and to heal. And I would say that was a defining moment in my life. So I grew so much during that time.

You know, I'm glad that we're just reconnecting back on that front because, you know, the speed of life is, it's pretty ridiculous. And my experience has been like working across multinational, um, organizations and even, even private clients is that people are tired. There's there's there, there is a human energy crisis as, um, Kathleen Hogan, the CHRO of Microsoft, shares, that there's a draining. The way I think about it is the tide went out and we're left to see that many of us were swimming naked for a long time. Like we just didn't have the right protective covering. And, you know, and as a psychologist, that basically for me means like we didn't have the right internal resources

to navigate the dramatic changes that have been taking place. So are you seeing the same thing? That there's a struggle, there's an energy, there's a drained experience by people? As someone who speaks to a ton of corporations and big companies, also school districts, sports teams, you name it, I'm speaking there and everyone seems to be dealing with so

much anxiety, a lot of chronic stress, a feeling of overwhelm. And people just feel drained and tired, as you said. Everywhere I go, like, man, are people just so tired. They need a boost. They're emotionally drained. They're stressed all the time. And what I'm recognizing is when the pandemic hit, people blame the pandemic, but it's never the circumstance. It's never the event, as I'm sure we'll get into. It's always our state of mind. And so what the pandemic revealed was people's state of mind, the internal resources, their mental structures, how they were viewing the world, how they were approaching the world. And it revealed that a lot of people are feeling separated and not connected. And they're feeling more disconnected than ever, even though they're busier and connected in more ways than ever.

And so I think people are really feeling like they're searching for answers. They know they need healing. I called COVID the great separator because it really separated a lot of things in very negative ways. And so it separated you from loved ones. It separated you from friends

when you were disagreeing with different topics. It separated you from loved ones. It separated you from friends when you were disagreeing with different topics. It separated you, though, from yourself. Fear, anxiety, and worry separates you from yourself. When you feel connected, you feel more powerful. You feel one. When you feel separated, you feel divided, you feel weak. And so people are feeling really disconnected and separated and divided now more than ever. And that's leading to them feeling the way they feel from an anxiety standpoint,

from an overwhelmed standpoint. And they're looking at their circumstances in so many ways and they're seeing their circumstances as having power over them. And then they're feeling weaker and weaker. So that's what I'm sensing more and more of as I'm talking to everyone I'm talking to. So John, you, you know, you're a student of what we're talking about and you've been studying this a long time and you've been talking about it, you know, in locker rooms to, you know, corporate boardrooms. What, when you feel disconnected, when you feel separated, what do you personally do? Unless you say, Mike, I don't know. I don't know what you're talking about. I don't feel that way. Like I got it all buttoned up. That's for, that's for them over there, which I know is a, I'm just joking. Like we're all trying to figure

it out. Yeah. How do I overcome that? How do I rebound from that when I'm feeling that way? Mm-hmm. So what I do is what I remind myself that I am one, that I'm not separate. I am one and I am connected. And that's important to do that. I also will choose to have more positive thoughts, which is important because the negative thoughts will bring us down, whereas positive thoughts uplift us. And I know we're probably going to talk about positivity today. I also don't look outside because I'll find myself when I am feeling that way. I'm looking outside. I'm looking at social media.

I'm looking at the lives of others. I'm comparing myself. And in doing so, I feel more and more negative and I get to a lower and lower state of mind. And so for me, the key is I look inside to my own path, my own purpose, my own journey. So instead of looking outside the circumstance, I look within and say, what can I do to create my life? What can I do to help others? How can I get back to my vision and my purpose? And to be honest, as someone who struggled with a lot of depression and negativity and a lot of anxiety in the past, I don't feel that way a whole lot anymore because of all the work I've been doing, of what I'm teaching now, I literally have been practicing and

doing. But there are moments, like today is a day of like overwhelm and I'm going to Nashville. I just came back from LA. I spoke yesterday in Orlando, drove back, have three weeks worth of mail to go through and all of the stuff. And what that does is it creates a lot of clutter. And when you have a lot of clutter, that clutter lowers your state of mind. When you have a lot of clarity, you have a much higher state of mind. And the more clarity you have, the more you see things obviously more clearly. And the more energy you have, when you feel cluttered, you start to feel drained and tired. So many people are not drained because of what they're doing. They're

drained because of their mental state. And so I get myself back into a optimal, more positive mental state to take on whatever circumstance I'm facing in that moment. Okay. No one does it alone. And I want to share a couple of sponsors that are making this show possible. Finding Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Solutions. In any high-performing environment that I've been part of, from elite teams to executive boardrooms, one thing holds true. Meaningful relationships are at the center of sustained success. And building those relationships, it takes more than effort. It takes a real caring about your people. It takes the right tools, the right information at the right time. And that's

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making that easier. So if you're trying to hit your daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash finding mastery. And now back to the conversation. So it's easy to say like when I'm negative, you know, turn it into a positive. Like it's easy and it's easy to say it's not easy to do. And there's two predominant styles of that. One is more like karate and the other is more like Aikido.

And so karate is more cognitive behavioral training. And then Aikido is more of a mindfulness approach, right? Like hello and goodbye to a thought that is no longer serving you. And cognitive behavioral, the karate is like, nope, not going there. That doesn't serve me. You know, replace it with something positive. Are you more aligned with the Aikido or the karate approach, the CBT approach or the mindfulness approach? It's a mixture of both. Like, okay, one day you're in traffic and it bothers you. The next day you're in the same traffic and it doesn't

because you're in a good mood. Is the traffic making you feel a certain way? And the answer is no, it's not the traffic. Just as I said, it wasn't the pandemic that caused you to be a certain way. It's always our state of mind. When your state of mind is low, the circumstance happens and it bothers you. When your state of mind is high, same circumstance can happen and it doesn't. An athlete on the field, when they're in a low state of mind, they make a mistake. They're now thinking about that mistake and they're ruminating over it. When they're in a high state of mind, they can make the same mistake and they're like, all right, next play.

I got this. I still feel good. Let's go. And so it's understanding your state of mind, I think, is more like a keto in terms of awareness and understanding where you are, understanding the truth versus the lies. And so for me, going back to tonality and also just practicality, the way I look at it, there are five Ds that will sabotage your mindset. And it's doubt, distortions, which are negative thoughts and lies that will tell you things about yourself

and your future that just aren't true. So negative thoughts are coming in and we can talk about that. And then there's discouragement. And we don't give up because it's hard. We give up because we get discouraged. There's that fourth D of distraction. And the fifth D is division. And the root for the Greek word of anxious means to separate and divide. And so when you feel anxious, you actually feel separate and divided. So noticed earlier, I talked about separateness. Fear divides and separates on an individual level, a team level, a community, a country, fear divides. So my whole belief is that negative thoughts separate and divide us and weaken us. So when those negative thoughts are

coming in, the best practice obviously is to recognize that they're lies and they have no power over you. But at the same point, I also believe that there's a practical approach. There's a action step approach where you can actually start speaking truth to those lies and replace those lies. Like I'm a huge fan of, of talking to yourself instead of listening to yourself. And so when the negative thoughts come in, you start speaking truth and words of encouragement and words of life. Can you give me a concrete example? Because now we're drilling right into the Aikido versus karate approach.

So I'll give you just to prime it a little bit. The Aikido approach is like if I say something like, oh shit, I don't know if I can get this done. Aikido would be like, oh, that's interesting. Look how I responded to that. Wait, hold on. And then it's just a redirection, maybe back to my breathing, maybe back to something in the environment, or maybe it's back to a thought that's more productive. Like, you know, I hear you and this is what makes it challenging and I love challenges. So that's more of an Aikido as opposed to, you know, thought stopping cognitive behavioral. So can you give an example how you,

how you internally do that gymnastics? So the Aikido approach would be when those negative thoughts are coming in, it would be like standing above the river and those thoughts are coming. And as I'm standing above the river on a bridge, I'm actually watching those thoughts come in and I'm recognizing those negative thoughts. But the belief, Mike, is that those negative thoughts, and I do believe this is the truth, is that those negative thoughts initially is not coming from you. Because who would ever choose to have a negative thought? Would you ever choose a negative thought? No. this blows people's mind when I share this and when I talk to athletes the thought is coming in initially and just like dreaming having a nightmare

are you choosing those thoughts no they're coming in and sometimes when we're awake thoughts are still coming like the thought that says you know I'm not gonna get this done like did that come from you initially maybe I don. I don't think we have the power of the first thought. I know we have the power of the second thought. Like I was on stage, Mike speaking, and a thought came in out of the blue. Remember that woman who didn't like your talk and wrote that negative comment in the survey? And we're talking five years before that thought came in. Where would that thought come from? And would I ever choose a thought like that initially? Now, when it came in,

I saw for what it was. And the power is to see the thought for what it is. And it's not coming from you. And it is a lie. Let me take you back. There's a 16-year-old young man I'm speaking to. He's suicidal. This is last year. He's suicidal. He's in the ER two nights before. I ask him, do you have a lot of thoughts in your head? He says, so many. I said, do they bombard you all the time? Yes. Do they accuse you? Yes. It makes me want to give up and just give up on life. Once I taught him this, and he understood his negative thoughts were not coming from him because he would never choose them and he had the power of the second thought, he stopped beating himself up

because he was blaming himself. He was beating himself up. He was feeling guilt and shame for the very negative thoughts that were in his head, thinking they were from him. Once he understood this, it was a game changer.

It changed everything. The next day, his parents said, what did you do? He's great. I reached out to him the other day over a year later. How you doing? Doing great, Mr. Gordon. High state of mind. I have now done this probably with 24 or more teenagers and college athletes in personal conversations. And literally every one of them has been able to reverse that mindset approach of when those negative thoughts come in on how to deal with the negative thoughts

that are coming in. Now, I don't teach actually do this, this, and this. I give frameworks and ideas. But I'm a big believer in, for some people, it's the Aikido approach. And mindfulness and meditation and breathing are so helpful because they lower the amount of thoughts in our head, creating the clutter.

They bring you back to center. They bring you back to truth. They bring you back to awareness, to the present moment, which are all very helpful instead of ruminating about the past and worrying about the future. And so they get you into the present moment. So I'm a big believer and I actually explain in my new book why that is helpful, why meditation and mindfulness is helpful. But I also believe like some people who I talk to, they benefit from that approach in terms of cognitive behavior therapy, where the negative thought comes in, like that negative

thought came in for me. And I knew right away it was a lie, but that I also did the, you know, did the karate approach where I was like, okay, it's a negative thought. It's a lie. But positive thought is, you know what? Just make a difference with the audience today. Just impact them. Just, just share something that's going to make a difference with that one person today. And if you do that, it's a success. Or like Pavarotti said, everybody wants the audience to love them, but I love the audience. So in that moment, I could just decide to love the audience and not worry about me or any thoughts in my head. So that's an approach that I would take. But I also encourage people on the left side of a piece of paper to write down their negative

thoughts. And by the way, I heard this from Jewel on your podcast. And it comes from Dr. James Gills as well. Because on the right side, you write down the words you will speak to those lies when they come in. And Dr. James Gills, only guy on the planet that completes six double Ironman triathlons. And the last time he did it, he was 59 years old. We're talking a double Ironman. And he was asked how he did it. And he said, I've learned to talk to myself instead of listen to myself. And so that's where that comes from.

So the negative thoughts come in. My wife will, for instance, say, stop. And then start speaking words of encouragement, words of life, and positive truths that she knows to be true. Super, super clear how you're working. And the one thing that I'm kind of attuning my antenna to is you say, we don't choose our thoughts. And I think, I think what I hear you saying is you choose your second thought, but the one you become aware of the first, that first thought that bubbles up, whether it's negative, positive, whatever you would frame it as I use

productive, unproductive, but I think, you know, you'll stay in your language, positive and negative, is that you're not choosing that. It's, I see it as bubbling from the surface, from non-conscious seeds, if you will. And this is very Buddhist in approach, that we've watered, we all have seeds, we water our seeds. Some seeds are of intolerance and some are of kindness and patience. But the way that we water seeds is by attending to them and thinking about them and acting on them and whatever you water grows. And so if you're practicing intolerance, that seed has been hydrated well, you know, it's a weed that's kind of pushing

through the surface. So an instant response or an instant thought to whatever the trigger might be would be of intolerance. And then with awareness, I go, oh, that's not serving me or serving my friend or whatever. And it's not who I want to be and it's not serving this moment well. So then I, I work with it to, to create something that is more aligned to the values that I want to live with. Okay. So I think we're on the same page here, except for the one thing you don't choose your thoughts. And so, um, tell me what that means. You don't choose your first initial thought a lot. time. A lot of time that thought is just coming in. It comes from a state of, and a place of consciousness.

Like, as I said, when you're dreaming, having a nightmare, you're not choosing those thoughts. I've asked neuroscientists. No one has ever found a thought inside of a brain. I believe your thoughts come from your mind, you know, and your soul in the field of consciousness. And you have a soul that is Mike Gervais. This is your soul. This is your unique expression of who you are. I have a unique soul to me. We're both spirit as well, with spirit and soul. Our body, when we die, it turns to dust. Think about that. Literally, it turns to dust. So what are we? What are we? We're more light beings

and energetic beings and thought beings than we are any physical being. And then scientifically, I can prove that how you make sense of this world through vibrations and frequencies and wavelengths and the auditory nerve and the optic nerve sending signals to the brain that actually creates meaning and makes sense of this world. And so I believe that thoughts activate the brain. The brain is the hardware. It's where the activation happens. And the mind soul is the software. It's the internet cloud of software. And there are dysfunctional parts of our soul that eventually have energetic patterns where the more those negative thoughts take hold and we believe them when they come in, they then do become a part of us. But at the same time, we can choose a more positive pattern. We can choose more productive thoughts. We can choose more healthy thoughts to heal the part of our soul where those negative thoughts are coming from, the mind and the soul. And Romans 8.5.6 says, a mind governed by the flesh leads to death.

A mind governed by the spirit leads to life and peace. Now, I'm not here to get religious, but I think it's the most perfect analogy of what's happening. There are thoughts being driven by the flesh of us that weakens us, that separates us, that divides us. And negative thoughts are lies. And I don't spend time with liars. So I'm not going to spend time with the lies that are in my head. The more I can spot the lies that are keeping me from being me, from my destiny, from my purpose, from the best version of me and the healthiest version of me, the more I can spot them, I'm going to respond with the truth. Why do negative thoughts even exist in the first place? And you would say, well,

it's an evolutionary purpose. So you may not say that, but people do in this world. It's an evolutionary purpose and it's a survival mechanism. But anyone who's ever actually experienced a flight fight response, that's actually a go or a no. That's actually, you have such clarity in that moment that you're going for survival. It's not a negative thought. It's actually a positive thought of survival. And the other form of negative thoughts are negative thoughts that make you question your identity and who you are and your self-worth

and those really don't have, those are not evolutionary in nature, those are identity in nature and very spiritual in nature, going to the core of that, again, you have a soul, you have a purpose, you have a destiny and there are negative thoughts

trying to keep you, again, from your destiny. And there are positive thoughts that will move you towards your destiny. And people are a hero, right, in an epic story. And they have a purpose and a journey that they're meant to go on. And every major movie, every major epic movie is a story between the battle of the hero overcoming the resistance and the negativity to ultimately get to where they're meant to be. Star Wars, Black Panther, Superman, every great movie, Harry Potter is that battle. And once you understand this, this helps you understand where negative thoughts are coming

from. And you can call it the force. Star Wars, it's the force. But negative thoughts are coming from. And you can call it the force. Star Wars, it's the force. But negative thoughts are always coming in. And when they do, you do have the power, I believe, of the second thought to speak truth to the lies, to take every thought captive and speak words of encouragement, words of life. Hopefully that's clarifying and making more sense.

Who decides what's positive and negative? Like does each individual decide and if so, based on what criteria? That's such a great question. And it's hard to determine what is positive and negative. And does negative also serve a purpose at times? Because it does. You know, when we have battles in life and we have challenges in life and we have resistance, it also helps us grow and makes us become who we're meant to be. There ultimately is the duality of our nature. And that's the thing. At one level, there's oneness.

In the duality world we live in, there's going to be some separation. And once there's separation, there's duality. You're always going to have two opposing forces. You're going to have light and dark. You're going to have love and hate. You're going to have up and down. You're going to have good and evil. And so I would say a negative thought is something that is keeping you from being who you're meant to be. It's also something that's holding you back and telling you that you're less than, that you're not enough, that your future is hopeless, that you'll never get through this. I would identify that as a negative thought. On the positive level, a positive thought calls you

to more, calls you to who you're meant to be, calls you to your best self, calls you to the positive attributes in you. It calls you to optimism and belief and courage and confidence. I truly believe there are two main frequencies that we are all tuning into. And the brain literally is an antenna. And you're tuning into either a positive frequency or a negative frequency. Those are the main frequencies. And that's why everything ultimately often comes down between positive and negative, positive thoughts and negative thoughts. And the old Cherokee story of the two wolves,

what is that a story of? We have two wolves inside of us, one positive, one negative, and they fight all the time. And the one who wins is the one you feed the most. So feed the positive wolf. That's an old ancient Cherokee story. Well, in the garden, the Garden of Eden,

a biblical story, but it's a Jewish story. It's an ancient Jewish story of Adam and Eve. There were two voices in the garden. There was the voice of the serpent calling them to less and lying to them. And there was the voice of God calling them to more and calling them to a life of abundance. Two frequencies, positive and negative. Pop culture. If we go to pop culture, we see all the TV shows and the movies where you got the angel on one side

and the devil on the other, and both voices are speaking. Those are the two main frequencies that the brain is literally tuning into. And the more we tune into the positive frequency, the positive thought that uplifts us, that encourages us, that moves us towards healing and wholeness, the more we move towards those negative frequencies, the negative thoughts that separates, divides, and leads to weakness, anxiety, despair, and all mental health disorders. Okay. Quick pause here to share some of the sponsors of this conversation.

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down. And when I'm locked into deep work, they also help me stay focused for longer without digital fatigue creeping in. Plus, they look great. Clean, clear, no funky color distortion, just good design, great science. And if you're ready to feel the difference for yourself, Felix Gray is offering all Finding Mastery listeners 20% off. Just head to FelixGray.com and use the code FindingMastery20 at checkout. Again, that's Felix Gray. You spell it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com and use the code FindingMastery20 at FelixGray.com for 20% off. And with that, let's jump right back into this conversation. Is your approach and your insights, are they based on religious doctrine and ideas, or is it more philosophical

that is not related to the structure of religion and or is it mostly science-based? Because I just want to get a backstop for you to ask a follow-on question. Yep. I'm so glad you asked that too, because we haven't talked in a while and obviously I've grown a lot since then and have really thought a lot about this. Here's the interesting thing. I've been a truth seeker, seeking truth, and you'll be able to and should be able to find truth everywhere. It should exist everywhere, just like in these ancient stories as I'm sharing from different traditions. So to me, it's not religion that has guided me. It's not that structure. It's really more philosophical and science. But here's the

wild thing. As I wrote The One Truth, as I started to write this and understand this, because these ideas were coming to me and now I'm sharing them, separation, oneness, everything ultimately comes down to that. The word integrity comes from the word integer, which means whole and complete. So a leader with integrity has wholeness and completeness. They have oneness. They have a lot of power as a complete. So a leader with integrity has wholeness and completeness. They have oneness. They have a lot of power as a leader. Whereas that leader who's a narcissist, you know at the neurological level, they cut off certain parts of the brain to protect themselves because of some trauma that they've experienced. The narcissist actually feels separate.

They feel divided. So what happens? They're focused only on self. They're not focused on others. They don't care about others because they're trying to protect self and focus on self. As a result, they're actually a weak leader because they're not really connected to others. They're separate from others. So I started to recognize this and see this. And then I started looking through the lens of this one truth lens of oneness and separateness. And it started to make a lot of sense. But like Namaste says, the spirit in me recognizes the spirit in you. And so there's this understanding that we are spirits. So there's a spiritual element to it. For me, I would say it's spiritual. So there's a spiritual element in terms

of understanding that at the spiritual level, we really are one. And that's why we seek connection with others. It's why when we are connected to others, we do feel more healthy. It's why relational psychology says you heal in a loving relationship with someone. But here's the interesting thing. It's a loving relationship. Can you heal with a stranger? Not if they're a stranger. It's a loving relationship. So from that standpoint, then I am a person of faith. So I will, you know, I will obviously own that and admit that. So, but that's not what has guided me in this search and this understanding.

The wild thing is, as I've been studying this and now understanding this and then teaching this and helping people with this. Then recently, as I'm writing this book, I started to talk to friends who were pastors and some theologians and they're like, oh yeah, this is right here in scripture. Oh, this is here. Oh, this is Romans. Check it out. And then I started to see it also in biblical texts. But here's my thinking. The truth doesn't need the Bible to exist. The truth just exists. So I'm about sharing the truth to help people heal and find wholeness. And everybody has a hole in their soul, a wound from their past that needs healing to become whole. And so it's not about a religious tradition that's going to help you with that the truth

doesn't need that everyone understands that ultimately there's something going on within us that we're searching we're seeking we're wanting more we're not feeling quite right you just said we're overwhelmed we're stressed what's really going on at a deeper level and so it doesn't need any of that to exist it It exists. But what's cool is as I started to look at the Bible and then all these ancient stories and so forth, I realized it actually explains the truth that does exist. And my good friend who is not a Christian, who's a non-duality teacher, more of a consciousness guy goes, what I love about the New Testament is there's a lot of prescriptions in there and how to have a better and higher state of mind and how to renew your mind.

And so if you understand that we're a soul and a spirit, we need to renew our mind, which is our mind and our soul. And when our soul is bathing in the spirit, a connection of oneness, what happens is that then heals the mind and soul and then starts to heal the brain in the process. If the flesh is guiding it and not a spiritual connection, then what happens is it leads to demise and ultimately, it says death, that's a strong word. But then if you look at people who are just practicing mindfulness and meditation, say they're not religious, they're still connecting to something beyond themselves. They're connecting in a transcendental way. And that's moving them away from separateness, more towards oneness. And there's a lot of research showing that psychedelics

is now in some capacity doing the same as I'm diving into that and learning that. There's a sense of people report a feeling of a greater connection. And that starts to heal them as they move away from separateness towards oneness. So the one truth is? That everything comes down to oneness and separateness. And there's a force that's always trying to divide you and separate you in this universe. This is the narrative of the universe. And there's a power of love that's always trying to unite you back to oneness and connection. And as we move towards that oneness

and connection, that's where we find wholeness and healing and power and courage and strength. And as we move towards separateness, we move towards fear and worry, chronic stress and anxiety that actually then weakens us. So the choice of going through life is, okay, I can choose. I can literally, and we do have a choice. Even when we're feeling down and separate, we can actually start to choose. Given that, we're healthy enough to choose. And I want to state this because I think it's important. Some of us at a certain state, we can't even make that choice. And that's why we have trouble healing because we can't make that choice.

So to the extreme and to the part of where you can make that choice, Yes, we can actually choose and become more positive. Mike, I have like a tune framework, T-U-N-E, I share in the book and it's trust in truth, unite with love, neutralize the negativity and elevate your thinking. And the more we do that, whichever framework you use, whichever modalities you use as you do that, you start tuning into the positive and do

that day in and day out, you're going to start to find a higher state of mind and more wholeness and healing in that process. So the idea is that we're all connected, you know, and biologically, there's pretty solid evidence that we are wired for that. Yes. And also like pragmatically, I feel that, right? I feel a deep want to be connected to other people. And there's also, so biologically and neurologically, there's this wiring predisposition for connection. We can also make the survival argument that if you're kicked out of the tribe long ago, it was like, I mean,

it's pretty surefire way that you might not be around much longer if you had to hunt and gather and build your fire and whatever. So that narrative is pretty clear. And then we do know from psychological interventions is that upwards to 80 percent or maybe even more in some research that the healing that takes place inside of psychology is the rapport of the relationship the connection that the person feels so you're on to like something really important in fact schizophrenia the the root of schizophrenia, schizo meaning separate and frenium, you know, meaning mind, like where the mind is pulled apart, that it's one of the more severe disorders.

So I see where you're going. Okay. And there is this idea that the further you are away, this is philosophical now, this is not research-based. But the further you are away from your true self is evidenced by the level of suffering that you experience. So there's some really interesting things there. But how do you help people? So there's this, I feel this. I am a, by choice, I am a optimist. And by training, I've become consistent with optimism. Now, optimism and positivity are different. So we can separate those out. Optimism is a

fundamental belief that something good is about to take place, that the future is going to work out. And then I back into grounded optimism in two ways. I need to have the right internal resources and the right agency, a fancy word for like this ability to be able to navigate what I think is a hostile and dangerous world. I feel relatively safe in it, but I think the world is dangerous. And I know I'm tuning a lot of people right now going, why would you say that? Because my experience has been there's some heavy actors in this world that do not have your or my best interests at heart, and they have lots of power. So I think the world is dangerous.

I'm an optimist, and I've trained to become an optimist. Now this is, this is all framing for, and the psychology, the research on optimism is remarkable. High optimists outperform and outsell in business context, pessimists and low optimists. Okay. So there's a business case to maybe before it, and I can go on and on and on. But I have this, I have this response that I'm hearing often right now in a world that is divided. Let's call it not the world, but the United States. Turkey, by the way, as well, has a political landscape that is much like ours in the United States, where there's a really interesting close divide. Is that like almost a a nearly equal split so we're not alone in it in the united states is what i'm saying there's other regions of the world that have a

similar makeup okay so the response that i hear often right now is um and i'll be dramatic for a moment to prove a point okay i don't want to hear about this positive bullshit. Like we got to get to the truth now. Like I don't want to hear about this toxic, you know, optimism or this toxic positivity. They, people for right reason, they conflate positivity and optimism, which they are different. Okay. So when, so how do you, you've, you've got a positive university, like you've been studying positivity. Your framing here is about being positive and having the awareness to be able, by the way, we, you and I differ on where we think thoughts come from. That's fine.

We can leave that. Yeah. We can leave that to another conversation. But once you're aware of your thought, we're in agreement, like work with it, you know, like choose, choose well. So here's the question. What is the line between toxic positivity and productive, valued positivity?

And part two is how do you help people touch their suffering to know their pain, to be honest with themselves, to be able to be grounded in what is a real side of the human experience that we suffer. So I want the line between toxic positivity and positivity. And then also, how do you help people in your approach, your frameworks, to help people touch suffering? First and foremost, going back to connection. Yeah, we do feel stronger when we're connected to others and we do seek out connection and we are wired that way.

And like, I want to be connected to you. You know, I have a genuine like love for you and care for you and think you're awesome and want to spend time with you in that way. And so that's very real. Do you you mean that that's very sweet yeah no i do i know i know i i'm playing because i feel that with you like you've got you just you you know what every time we're around each other like and i'm thinking about this breakfast that we had um like you just see the good and i feel that you see the good in me and in that, and it doesn't feel toxic and it doesn't feel weak and it doesn't feel like it's full of shit.

So like it's grounded. That's why I'm asking about that. Yeah. I love that. I love that. I love the question. And we could disagree. Like, again, we disagree on thoughts and you know what, that's okay. Cause that's going to create for a conversation because when people disagree with you it actually should make you better and stronger as you have to be sharpened to answer or think about your own thoughts and yeah what like you talked about schizophrenia i love the way you just talked about that because i knew that i've done a lot of research on that but the way you said it like a separated brain i'm like oh that. See, we can always learn and grow from each other. I'm not a big fan of the term toxic positivity. And here's why. Not because my work is positivity.

Because if it's toxic, it's not positive. I don't like the term. I believe toxic positivity is now being used by anybody who doesn't like positivity or people who want to stay in their pain and their situation or stay in their negativity and attack those who are genuinely trying to be positive. Because I'm experiencing this now more than ever as someone who does this work and people are like, oh, you're trying to help people be positive. Oh, that's a bunch of crap. And the same thing I've gotten, this is positive bullshit. But let me tell you, Evan Spiegel, one of my clients with Snapchat, I went in 2018. He read my book, The Power of Positive Leadership, asked me to come speak to his leadership team.

I went and spoke and taught them positive leadership. He said they had so much pessimism, so much negativity around Instagram coming after their business, Wall Street beating them down. The marketplace was crushing them. He goes, it's literally seeping into our pores. Help us stay positive. I gave my talk. I gave principles, practices, research, you name it, right? Talked about the Duke University study on optimists. They work harder, get paid more, more likely to succeed in business and sports. Really made my case. He said, when I was done, some people literally loved it. A few were

like, yeah, what's this positivity crap? Those people left. Replace them with other optimists and other positive people. They turned around the company going forward. He said it was a defining moment in his leadership style. So to me, toxic positivity, let's call what it really is, a lack of empathy. Wait, wait, wait. Give an example of what you, toxic positivity, let's call it what it really is, a lack of empathy. Wait, wait, wait. Give an example of what you think toxic positivity is before we go to like- What it really is. So what it really-

No, what- Yeah, I'm going to give you an example. What it sounds like. What it really is a lack of empathy, a lack of care, a lack of concern. It's not meeting people where they are and not meeting yourself where you are. It's glossing over things. And it's fake in many ways, like, oh, just be positive, where you really ignore, as you said, the suffering or the hole in your soul and the pain that you're really dealing with. And sometimes you may cover it. Some cover it with anger.

Others cover it with toxic positivity. Again, I don't like the term. They'll cover it with fake positivity. And now, one final word from our sponsors. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day. And Cozy Earth has become a new part of that. Their bedding, it's incredibly soft, like next level soft. And what surprised me the most is how much it actually helps regulate temperature. I tend to run warm at night and these sheets have helped me sleep cooler and more consistently, which has made

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That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash finding mastery. Let's jump right back into the conversation. Let's say that there is a thing called toxic positivity. I know that you don't agree with that, but just for the conversation, for just a moment here, is that I think it stems from a deep contempt. It's a deep anger. And it's like, hey, how you doing, John? And you say, yeah, good. I'm really good. Everything's really, you know, it's good. It's really good. But inside you're like, fuck, dude, like I'm a disaster and I'm pissed off for being here and I don't want to be at the – so there's like this anger that's underneath a resentment or contempt for oneself.

Or pain. Or pain. But that comes from suffering. Right. That's a response to suffering. Yeah. And so it's – that's – okay. That – my skin crawls when I feel when there's a dissonance between what is said and what is felt by the

person. And probably by trade as a psychologist, I notice it. And then I can imagine what happens for people that aren't trained to understand barely detectable psychological tells or honest signals about what's happening for a person that they must be like, that's what the fuck? Like, this makes no sense. What? I just got to get away from that. So I think I do think it exists. I know you say it doesn't. It exists. I don't like the term. Okay. I believe it exists. I don't like the term. I believe it exists. I don't like the term, but you and I both believe it exists. And then you asked me like, okay, so what do you do about it in that situation? And I tell people it's about meeting people where they are, listening to them, listening to yourself, understanding that it's okay to not be okay. And it's okay to go within and really uncover the hurt and the pain that you're dealing with.

But as you know, so often when we have these wounds of the past, we hide because we don't want to address them because it's painful to address the wounds in your soul. It requires the ability to experience the pain. And we spend billions of dollars avoiding any sorts of pain. Just look at drinking, look at drugs, look at all the medications. We spend billions. We don't like to feel pain, but you have to go through the pain process in order to actually heal. And in writing this one truth, this is not a surface level book. This is a book about, I'm going to give you ways to elevate your state of mind. And in writing this one truth, this is not a surface level book. This is a book about, I'm going to give you ways to elevate your state of mind. And most importantly, one of the

subtitles is heal the hole in your soul. It's to heal your soul. And the way we do that is to recognize that there's healing that needs to take place. And only through love and forgiveness can you heal something. Love and forgiveness is what heals it. And it's about finding that love and forgiveness to heal what you're going through and what you're dealing with. So my approach is the separation and the wound in your soul is leading to a lot of the negative thoughts that you're having. And as you find wholeness and healing, you will start to, in oneness, start to tune into, connect to more positive thoughts in your life.

And then for folks that don't know you or don't have a relationship with you, or they're listening and they're like, okay, but I don't have someone like that in my life. Yeah. You know, and, and you might say, go to a therapist. And they're like, listen, I don't have that money. Say, okay. And so they're kind of putting up some blockades here. But like, how would you guide them?

So I'm not trying to be self-promotional, but I... I love the but. No, I'm not trying to, you knowpromotional, but I love the button. No, I'm not trying to, you know, wait, hold on. Don't worry. I want to laugh with you a little bit because I want them. I do want you to share resources and you've, you've spent 30 years amassing resources. So I want you to share your resources, but it's like, we used to have a person on our team that would say, okay, I don't want to be an asshole.

And then all of a sudden it's like vitriol coming out. You know, it's like we would all just like laugh, you know, like if you say the thing before, it's like a permission to like, but it's so I'm laughing here, but no offense. But I would be promotional. No, but in the one truth, I created a free action plan for people to use. And then also in the back of the book, I also put in several acronym actions that they can take. One is TUNA, another is WHOLE, and then W-H-O-L-A to find more wholeness.

So it's to help people move in that direction. But I do believe a lot of times- Okay, plug it. Where can people go? They can go to getonetruth.com, getonetruth.com for that book, for those solutions. But at the same time,

I know people can't always afford it, but I do know finding someone to talk to, a friend, a relationship. If you can go to a church or a temple, a lot of times there's counselors in the churches and temples that can talk to and guide you. I would go there, find someone to talk to and someone to share and someone who will listen and begin that process. And then if it's caused by an addiction, there's all these addiction clubs, AA and so forth, 12-step programs that you can join that are very supportive and be there for you. So there are a lot of resources.

But again, you've got to seek it out. You've got to look for it. And that's where optimism comes in. Do you believe that healing can take place? Do you believe that you can become more whole? Do you believe that healing can take place? Do you believe that you can become more whole? Do you believe that there's a better future for you? And do you have hope? And so many people say hope is not a strategy, but I believe hope gives you the ability and the belief to take action one more day that moves you closer to being the better you. So I often ask people, you know, do you want to slide into the end of

your life, you know, and have life be rainbows and sunshines and everything is positive and good in your life? Or do you want to slide into home base, the proverbial home base, if you will, you know, and show your scars, your bruises that you've, you've rolled up your sleeves and you've, you've, you've gone for it. And, you know, it's been, it's been hard and you've in, in that hardness, there's been some wisdom, you know, and it's like, which way do you want to go preserved or dirty? Do you want to go, um, you know, on the, only above the line, or do you want to understand the below the line experience? And so what do you think most people say? I think most people probably take the dirty

route. I w I want to go the dirty route. I want to, I want to get better. I want to get stronger. I think people might say the dirty route when they really don't want any adversity. They don't really want struggle. So this is, so this is what the next follow-on question is, is like, okay, well, you know that that takes some risk, right? Like to really go for it takes risk. And they're like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Good, good, good. And then I give them an opportunity to go for it. And most people don't actually go for it in that moment. And so it's more talk than walk. It's more theoretical than applied. It's more aspirational than action oriented. So, and there's a moment of conflict for people when they're faced with this challenge that I give them and they, and they don't go for it because

it's overwhelming. Why do you think people, why, why don't you, let's not be theoretical. Like what happens for you when you don't go for it? You say you want to, but what in the, in the most honest, raw form, what happens to you when you don't and you play it safe? It's, it's protection of self image. It's, it's fear that if I mess up, that if I don't perform well, that I'm not enough as a former athlete. Okay. Hold on. Hold on. This is exactly like, God, you and I haven't, you and I have not talked about this. So this is for like, this is like a reality check. We have not talked about this. This is exactly what the book that I've spent the last two years writing. I know you write books in

like a weekend, but for me, it took me two years. Okay. So yeah, it took me two years to, to, to work through this manuscript about the greatest constrictor of human potential is FOPO, fear of people's opinions. And it's the thing that just binds us up that I'm not enough without like an, an approved performance. My identity alone needs to have some performative shine to it. And so can you speak to FOPO? I love that you're writing that book. I love that it's coming out. I can't wait to read it. It really does address the major issue today with social media and people always looking outside and comparing themselves. They're really seeking validation. In the gap between oneness and separateness, when we feel separate, we try to fill the gap. And so often we try to fill it with validation and things that will get us recognized and fame and wealth and power and

success. So guess what? If you don't perform well, then you aren't getting closer to oneness. You're feeling more and more separate. And unworthiness and perfectionist, I often say are two sides of the same coin. Because you feel unworthy, you have to now be perfect to actually compensate for your unworthiness, to show that you are worthy. I have to perform well.

I have to be a perfectionist. I have to have success and accomplishments to now have a sense of worthiness. So they're actually the same in many ways. So often people feel unworthy, they might retreat and do nothing and become a total lazy loser, whereas others now work really hard, but they both stem from the same original source and that's a feeling of unworthiness. So from our identity, we're not enough, as you just said, without our accomplishments,

without success. And we need that to be something. So we're defining ourselves by our performance, by our social media status, by our business status, by our job title, whatever it may be, by our car, you know? And we're always now tying our self-worth to our outcome and to our outer world instead of our inner world. And so I always tell people, I've been doing this with college kids,

I'll say, hey, when Superman took off his Superman outfit, who was he? And like, he was Clark Kent. I say, no, he was still Superman. He was who he was on the inside. The uniform didn't change who he was and it doesn't change who you are. You are enough. There is greatness within you.

You are here to do something amazing and something great. And guess what? You want to do something great. Why? Because deep down, you know there's greatness within you. Everyone I ask, no one ever says, I want to be average. They all say, yes, I do want to be great. Why is that?

Because we know within us we have greatness. But we have these voices, I say, that tell us we're not great. We're not enough. And that's the battle of our world and the narrative. And your book addresses exactly the heart of the battle. And it's the inner world of identity. That's really cool. I can't wait to get it over to you.

And so, look, John, I'm stoked for folks to go check out your book. You know, we're talking about books right now, but like what number book is this for you? This is my 28th book, but I feel like it's my most, but I feel like it's my most important book. It's my most revolutionary book. It's my, it's my most, you know, I never said this about other books. Like I feel like energy bus really put me on the map and I feel like I'm just beginning with this, with this one right now. I mean, I'm just for folks that are watching, you'll, you're watching the same thing I'm watching, which is what, what is that behind you? What are those books? Oh, those are books

that I've written. Those are paintings that my wife makes when I write a book. And so those are all the different books I've written. 15 bestsellers, which I'm proud of out of the- Come on. Out of the 28. Someone said the other day, I did a podcast, he goes, what happened to the other books? Well, five were children's books. And so now that gets me to 20. I mean, I'm so happy for you, John. like for, for the simple reason that like, there's things that we disagree about, like on how psychology goes, but it's a complicated world. And, you know, um, there's plenty of room for us to try to figure it. We're all just trying to figure it out.

I channel my wife when she says that to me and my son. And, you know, when somebody outside of, outside of our house has made a mistake or inside the house, and she's like, listen, we're all just trying to figure it out. And I'm like, God bless it. It just brings me right down to like, yeah. You know, and so what I appreciate about you is that you are doing your very best to make sense of a world that is important and complicated and invisible. And you think deeply about it.

And you take the courage and the risk to put it out on paper for it to be scrutinized and celebrated. And I appreciate what that takes. It is to write that many books and to have that many bestsellers, you're resonating with people. And so I want to say thank you for seeing me in a way that I feel seen and understood. And I'm so happy to celebrate your ideas here. Hey, Mike, I appreciate it so much. And thanks for having me.

I can't wait. I think we should have a separate pod. We put it on both of our podcasts and we actually talk about where thoughts come from. And we really do a deep dive into just thoughts and all right let's do it we can have some fun doing that and just talk about like where they come from where do you think they originate we can get into the science the essence of a thought quantum mechanics quantum physics it would be really cool i love that that would be and you know it'd be fun is to have a couple of folks on there, you know, to, to, to harden it from separate disciplines. Yeah. That'd be cool too. Cause

I've talked to, I've been talking to a bunch of neuroscientists and I've had them on my podcast and I did it cause I wanted to know, okay, where do I stand with this? Like, what are your thoughts? And I ran by my antenna theory by some of them, you know, Chris Palmer, Harvard psychiatrist, wrote Brain Energy. I'm sure you've seen of them, you know, uh, Chris Palmer, Howard, Harvard psychiatrist, wrote brain energy. I'm sure you've seen that book, you know, talk with him, talk to a professor Newberg, who's the top researcher in neurotheology, you know, was having conversations about him, which is pretty cool. Like how meditation, mindfulness and spiritual practices, how it affects the brain. So I've been really thinking a lot about that. Yeah. So I think we'd have a blast having this kind of conversation. It'd be

cool. I want to learn from you. I want to know where you think thoughts come from. So I can actually think through that process of where you think they come from. All right. Great challenge. I love more. John, thank you. Where can we drive people to check out your current book and all the other resources that you've amassed? Hey, go to getonetruth.com and then just visit me at johngordon.com, J-O-N, Gordon.com. Also Twitter, Instagram, at J-O-N, Gordon11. And just know, even though we had this deep conversation about this, a lot of my work is mostly on teaching positive leadership to companies and organizations and helping teams become stronger teams. So I do

a lot of work in the area of teamwork and leadership. This is just the essence of the deepness. But Mike, what's cool is Alan Mulally, who turned around Ford and Boeing, I'm sure you know who he is. He recently gave a quote for The One Truth. He said The One Truth was behind his literally teamwork working enabling system that got teams to work together to become more one as a team, which is pretty cool. What I was sharing in there is the essence he pretty much said of what he tried to do as a leader. So anyway, it does have a lot of practical applications as well, but nothing more fun than talking about my brilliant friend, Mike, with my brilliant friend, Mike, on how, you know, how this all works. So it was a lot of fun. Thank you, Mike.

Appreciate you, John. All the best. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no-cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're listening. Also, if you haven't already, please consider dropping us a review on Apple or Spotify. We are incredibly grateful for the support and feedback. If you're looking for even more insights, we have a newsletter we send out every Wednesday. Punch over to findingmastery.com slash newsletter to sign up. The show wouldn't be possible without our sponsors and we take our recommendations seriously. And the team is very thoughtful

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