Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Embracing Challenge & Conquering ‘The Impossible’ | Insights from Legendary Climber, Tommy Caldwell

Episode Date: October 25, 2023

Imagine staring up at 3,000-foot vertical wall of rock—a wall that no one has climbed before—and taking that first grab, exploring uncharted territory, physically and psychologically.Tommy Caldwell did just that. Tommy is a legendary professional big wall rock climber who redefined the boundaries of human achievement by scaling the steepest, most barren face of Yosemite's El Capitan—the infamous Dawn Wall.And Tommy's story isn't just about climbing; it's about the power of the human mind. In 2000, he faced a different kind of challenge when he and his fellow climbers were taken hostage by rebel militants in Kyrgyzstan. Surviving on minimal food and water, they eventually made a daring escape that would forever change Tommy's perspective on human resilience. It was powerful to hear Tommy tell this story, and how it has impacted his life since. Tommy's journey is a testament to the extraordinary – what we can achieve when we dare to imagine what’s possible. While most of us may not be climbers, I think we all have our own “Dawn Walls”... seemingly impossible feats we can aspire to, achieve, and - in time - overcome. Tommy talks us through how he mechanically pushes his edges to discover what he – and what humanity – is capable of. It’s a beautiful story of becoming. In this extraordinary conversation, Tommy reflects on his unparalleled experiences, the power of “elective hardship”, and the pursuit of a life that energizes and invigorates. Discover the man behind the legend, the husband, and father who's learned to balance his own needs with those of his loved ones._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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stay present and engaged with my thinking and writing. If you wanna slow down, if you wanna work smarter, I highly encourage you to check them out. Visit remarkable.com to learn more and grab your paper pro today. About a week into our trip, we were up on a mountain sleeping in portal ledges, like these hanging cots,

a thousand feet up this wall, when we awoke on our second morning on the wall to gunshots and somebody was you know down on the ground shooting up at us with a long-range assault rifle and that's basically how we got taken hostage Okay, welcome back or welcome to the Finding Mastery podcast. I am your host, Dr. Michael Gervais by trade and training, a high-performance psychologist. Okay, I want you to use your imagination here for just a moment. Put yourself at the base of a 3,000-foot vertical wall of rock, a wall that nobody has climbed before.

I want you to imagine what it would take for you to take that first step, that first grab to explore the uncharted territory, both physically and psychologically. What does that take to be able to do something that nobody has done, that everybody thought was impossible. Well, Tommy Caldwell did just that. Tommy is a legendary professional big wall rock climber who his entire career is marked by redefining the boundaries of human achievement. And one of the ways he did it is by scaling the steepest, most barren faces on the planet. For example, Yosemite's El Capitan, the infamous Dawn Wall. His relentless seven-year pursuit culminated in this first free ascent,

capturing global attention and earning a nod from President Barack Obama, who noted, you remind us that anything is possible. Extreme determination of creativity and, of course, of pushing past perceived limits. From conquering El Capitan to the Fitzroy Traverse in Patagonia, and most recently, the Devil's Thumb in Alaska. We did that with climbing partner Alex Anold. He was on the podcast as well. And I'm sure our community is highly tuned to just how significant he is in the world of exploration. Tommy has consistently shattered records and expectations. Now his story isn't just about climbing. It's about the power of the human mind. In 2000, he faced a different kind of challenge when he and his fellow climbers were

taken hostage by rebel militants in Kyrgyzstan. Surviving on minimal food and water, they eventually made a daring escape that would forever change Tommy's perspective on resilience. It was powerful to hear Tommy tell the story, how emotional it was, how rich it was, and how it has impacted his life since. Tommy's life journey is a testament to the extraordinary, what we can achieve when we dare to imagine what's possible. While most of us will not be rock climbers or are not rock climbers, I think we all have our own dawn walls, the seemingly impossible feats that we can aspire to and potentially achieve and in time overcome. Tommy talks through how he mechanically pushes his edges to discover what he and what ultimately

humanity is capable of. It's a beautiful story and it's a story of becoming. In this extraordinary conversation, Tommy reflects on his unparalleled experiences, the power of elective hardship and the pursuit of a life that energizes and invigorates. I want you to discover the man behind the legend, the husband, the father who's learned to balance his own needs with those of his loved ones. So with that, let's jump right into this week's conversation with Tommy Caldwell. For our audience that isn't aware, you accomplished something that people thought was flat out impossible, free climbing the infamous Dawn Wall. And while not everyone in our community

are climbers for sure, I think that everybody has their own dawn walls, their seemingly impossible feats to achieve and overcome in their lives. And I'd like to start by better understanding, how did you come to believe that something that no one thought could be done might actually be possible for you? Oh man, it's interesting that we go straight to the Don Wall. I mean, the Don Wall to sort of the broader world outside of climbing was really high profile. But in my life, it was really just one of a lot of things that had happened.

I think everybody knows about it just because a great movie was made. You know, it kind of like went big in the New York Times. And I guess on some level, for me, it was like a culmination of a lot of years of being very obsessed in a very specific realm of climbing. And so I think when you're more obsessed and you're more focused on one specific thing than anybody else, it is going to seem unlikely or impossible to people outside of that sort of ethos or that way of thinking. environment, I think that you're also operating in kind of a life arc environment. And I'll explain that with this take on it is that you've pointed your nose towards something that you didn't think was possible. You had to become obsessed or you already were obsessed, I should say. But to push in, to push your chips into this thing that everyone thought was crazy, not doable, you had to give up chunks of years of

your life to be able to pursue something that most people thought was impossible. So that's where I see the risk. Yes, there's physical risk and there's this time risk where you're pursuing something that people thought was impossible. Did you believe it was possible? Like, how did you start with, I'm going to invest all of this time for this pursuit? I didn't know if it was possible. The risk in my mind was like financial risk, maybe more than time risk. Because I felt like it was going to be worth it no matter what in terms of time, because even if I didn't succeed in the end, I was going to have all these years of driving towards activity that I really love. And I was going to learn a lot through that. So it really I mean, it's cliche, but it was all about the process.

So it was all about the lifestyle that I got to live through the pursuit of the Dawn Wall. And the success was great that it happened in the end. And there were times throughout the climb that I was, you know, that I had a lot of anxiety over failing after working on something for so hard. But when I would really zoom out, I'd be like, you know what, this is, this is like an awesome way to live. I'm learning so much. It's worth it no matter what. And I think that's what kind of created the atmosphere and the perseverance that was necessary to do it. Okay. Let's stay here for a minute. Is that how, like, maybe we could put a fine point on it. Like, how do you think about success? Cause you're like, I'm winning no matter what is what I heard there. Even if I don't, you know, get to the top, even if I, I don't know, have some sort of physical

thing that takes place that's debilitating in some way. But like, how do you think about winning? I mean, for me, success is all about like living a life of pursuit that I, you know, that I feel invigorated by. I don't know if I if it feels right to me, if I'm energized, if I'm psyched, if it's, if it's, um, you know, facilitating relationships in my life and kind of like, if the life that I'm living is creating like energy, then I feel like I'm in the right place. Energized, psyched, creating energy. Like, so there's a vibe about the decisions that you make that is a capture of success. Do I have that right? Yeah. I've had to get really used to trusting how it feels, trusting my gut. If that feels right, then I'm probably doing the right thing. That is worth opening up because what you didn't say is actually, I think, more interesting

to me, which is you didn't say, look, it's about getting to the top and doing something no one's done before and having my name kind of etched in whatever. It's not about outcome. I didn't hear you say money. I didn't hear you say recognition. I didn't hear you say some of the traditional outcomes that people might find interesting. People, most people are sophisticated enough to know that saying that stuff feels unbecoming, but they really feel it and they mask it with, no, it's about the love of learning and, you know, getting better and

whatever. But I don't get any masking from you. Possibly the, the, the reason that I don't feel, um, as drawn to that is because like, I'm a privileged white dude. Like I've had those things. I don't, it's like, it's a place of privilege to not have to worry about those that much. And so I guess because I'm there, I'm able to focus on the internal a little bit, a little bit more. And that's what kind of means more to me. You use the term elective hardship as opposed to the typical, you know, suffer fast or grind terminology that we hear, you know, the hustle hard, get after it, you know, pay your dues. You're talking about elective hardship. Can you open that up just a little bit more? I mean, I think I choose to do hard things because I think it's going to make me live

a more high quality life. And I like to always be performing my best and progressing sort of like as quickly as I can. I'm going to pause the conversation here for just a few minutes to talk about our sponsors. Finding Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Solutions. In any high-performing environment that I've been part of, from elite teams to executive boardrooms, one thing holds true. Meaningful relationships are at the center of sustained success. And building those relationships, it takes more than effort.

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That squared with, you know, your intuition and this idea of like, you're not choosing the safe life. You're not choosing the safe route even. Literally, you're taking routes that have never been done before on walls that people didn't think could be done. So what do you say to people that are like, you got to hustle, the grind, you got to suffer, you've got to um, you got to kind of pour into the hard things to be your best. How do you, how do you square that? I mean, I think being your best is going to be different for everybody, like hustling and choosing elective hardship and, and picking difficult things is my path, but it's certainly not the path for everyone. So I just through experience and through the life that I've lived have made me think that that's something that I want to pursue. You know, the documentary on Don Wall was awesome as a as a viewer. Did you feel that way when you watched it back, if you did watch it back? Yeah, I mean, it was interesting. When they made that movie, I didn't see any early cuts.

I was obviously there for the filming of it, but I purposely was like, I don't want to weigh in on this thing until it's done, even though it was my very good friends making this. And so then when it premiered in the theaters, I was nervous. I hadn't seen it at all. And thousands, hundreds of thousands of people

were seeing it that day. And it felt very much watching it like it felt when it was happening. So I felt like the filmmakers did a great job. Yeah. So the reason I bring that up right now is because early in that doc, it was obvious that your dad does have a huge role in your life. And early on, if I have it right, you were kind of a scrawny kid and your dad was this massive human. And the idea that he designed purposeful hardship or suffering and put you through a gauntlet so that you could better deal with adversity and become more resilient.

It was very thoughtful how he went about doing it. At least that's how they portrayed it. And I'm wondering if your insight on elective hardship is a response to that early, quote unquote, suffering that your dad put you through to help you become more resilient. And can you just kind of counterbalance those two ideas as well? Yeah. I mean, my dad raising me in that way was, that's just who he is as a person. That's what he values. I don't think, I mean, it was thoughtful in a way because he's thoughtful about what makes him thrive and he's thoughtful about what he thought would make me thrive and it just happened to work out. And then that's how I

grew up. That's what I learned. And so that's how I view my life these days. Yeah. I guess that elective hardship was just kind of like a family motto. And that's what I, that's what I continued with as, as I've gotten older. Okay. So that was something that your dad offered. This isn't like in tone, your dad was like, look, we're going to select, we're going to choose to do hard things. And that's going to set you up to do hard things later. And if you want to have an amazing life, son, I'm going to love you. I'm also going to let you quote unquote suffer during hard times. Does that feel right as a dad's parenting perspective?

Maybe. I mean, I don't think that my dad thought that suffering was a negative thing. Like I think that word has a lot of negative connotations and somehow my dad thought that suffering was a negative thing. Like, I think that word has a lot of negative connotations. And somehow my dad flipped that. Like, suffering is a great thing. Suffering is what makes you who you are. Suffering is kind of the moment that you get the most excited in life. Like, when I was young and we were out doing something that was painful or scary or hard and had a lot of suffering in it, I'd look in my dad's eyes and they were like glowing and they're bright. And they're like,

this is what's going to make us who we are. And so I, I took that on. Like I learned that from a really young age and I still feel that way. Like when I'd go out climbing with Alex Arnold or a friend, you know, Kevin Jorgensen these days, like when it gets really hard, that's when, that's when we get the most excited. What are you excited about in those moments? Cause most people want to tighten up, shrivel up, escape, you know, that's what most brains are designed to do. What do you get excited about in those moments? I wonder if that's too big of a question, really. I mean, I think there's so many things that we get excited about. I mean, on one hand, it's like the story that we're going to be able to tell afterwards. We always talk about, okay, stop, stop there. Stop there. Like, I mean, on one hand, it's like the story that we're going to be able to tell afterwards. We always talk about. Okay.

Stop, stop, stop there. Stop there. Like, I just like, you're the first person who said that. And I've had that thought in my head for like, I think about that a lot too, but then I start to go, I start to second guess myself. Like, am I sorry, Tommy? Like, but I started to get in that vibe. Like, am I doing this for a story later? And I don't want my life designed that way.

But it's honest. I'm excited to share things later. And so, I don't know. Help me understand that for you. I mean, I think when you have a big experience, when you go on an adventure, the adventure in the moment changes you some, but it's sort of like the meditating on that adventure and the remembering it and the thinking about it afterwards that really changes you the most. So I mean, I think what I'm addicted to most is progression. And so when you're having a great adventure,

that's hard, that's going to create the biggest moments of progression in your life. So, and a lot of times you don't understand what that is going to be in the moment. Like when you're in the midst of it, you're up on a mountain, there's a big storm happening, you know, things are getting kind of real. You only understand a little bit of it. Yeah, that's really cool. Okay. I totally cut you off. I know you added to it. You added like the story later and then this addiction to progression, this drive for progression so that when you're in that, in that challenging moment, the suffering, whatever it is, like you're, there's some small acknowledgement that this is going to move me

forward. Whether the outcome is what I hoped it was or not, I'm getting reps at being in, um, make or break environments. I'm, I'm getting a rep at being in environments where most brains, my earlier brain would collapse under the stress, but I'm doing pretty well right now. Is that, is there any, is there another one, you know, when we think about, I mean, one thing that we always joke about is that as character building experiences, when you're, when you're, when you're having a really big adventure, you're like, this sure is character building, you know? And it's funny on my last trip, I had this big conversation with my partner. I was like, how much character do

we need to build? Like, we've been doing this for so long like is there any more character that we could build and we didn't really have a conclusion on that but um yeah I mean so yeah it's like the story you're going to be able to tell the character that you're building um there's sort of this idea that when you experience hardship like elective, it kind of makes all the other hardship in life seem more minor. So it makes you feel prepared if non-elective hardship comes along. Like I tend to blow off everyday stresses pretty easily. Like I just don't stress the minor things in ways that a lot of other people do. And that's probably because I've lived a life of kind of having these major elective stresses a lot. And it kind of makes things outside of that

feel pretty chill. What is the hard part? Is it, I wanted to open up suffering and pain. Maybe we'll pause that for a moment. But what is the hard part for you when you're in one of these challenging moments or conditions? What is it emotionally hard? Is it technically hard? Is it physically hard? Like what's the hardest part for you? Honestly, the hardest part for me is the selfishness of, of doing potentially life risking things with the family, like the pain and the suffering. Like that's kind of what I do. That's what I'm an expert at. And so that doesn't feel that hard to me in so many ways. But the thinking about home and family life is the hard part for me. Did that change once you had a more formal family with children? I think it changed somewhat.

Like even when I was young, though, if I was doing something dangerous, I would think about my parents. Like my dad never wanted me to go ice climbing like even though he introduced me to climbing he never wanted me to risk my life per se he taught me to do it in a way that we thought was well below that line of like life risking things and I tend to push that on occasion as I've gotten older and so when I would do things that would, when I would go ice climbing or do things that seemed risky in a way that I know my parents wouldn't approve of, that was hard when I was young. And now when I do things that I think could jeopardize, you know, my life and therefore the future of my wife and kids, that's, that's the most difficult part. And

honestly, I don't feel like I do that that much. I don't go into big adventures and big climbing experiences thinking that I'm going to risk my life, but occasionally it does happen just because it's an adverse environment. Can you bring us into a hard moment that sticks out in your mind right now or comes to the surface? Maybe it's a dawn wall. Maybe it's, I don't know, deciding to go back and get Kevin and we'll introduce who Kevin is maybe during this narrative. But can you bring us into a hard moment that comes to the surface for you? It doesn't have to be those two. Let's see here. I mean, if we're going to talk about the life-risking stuff, I can point to a climb that I did in 2015 with Alex Honnold, which was a

traverse of a mountain range, the Fitz of this magnificent mountain range. And the Fitz Traverse in Patagonia, where we did this five, we had very little gear with us. We were really kind of reliant on, you know, we had to climb, you know, 12,000 feet of vertical climbing over 12 miles and incredibly technical terrain. And then as I got out of the waterfall, all of my clothes and my ropes and everything just like froze, like became encrusted in ice. And I got kind of hypothermic. And I knew that if I didn't stop moving, I might succumb to hypothermia. And so I had to like figure out ways to just like keep moving and keep making progress, even though you're really cold. And it's one of those things that if I were to fall and sprain an ankle and I couldn't keep moving in that sort of situation, that would be bad. That's when, you know, that's when your life would truly be in danger. And so in the moment, you're just dealing, right?

You're just climbing. You're doing everything you can. In some ways, it feels kind of scary and hard, but in other ways, it feels kind of exciting because you're kind of performing at your best because you have to in moments like that. And I don't think too much about my family. It's not like my family's life is flashing in front of my eyes because I'm fully involved in what I'm doing in that moment. But then afterwards, you know, after the climb is all done, you're sitting back and you're like, man, I put myself in that situation that was a little bit too close to the edge. And what would have happened if, if I did die up there, that

would be very tragic. And so, yeah, that's one of those moments. I guess I'm surprised, but, you know, maybe not by you, but you didn't, when I asked about a hard moment, you didn't bring up accidentally cutting off your finger. And like, as a climber, you know, like it's a really important instrument. So like, how come that doesn't come to the surface for you? I mean, that was certainly a hard moment. But it was. I mean, it was long enough ago and ultimately it really kind of equipped me with these tools that I wouldn't have had otherwise.

So in the long run, it, it like, you know, I think of the hard moments as things that I still don't know how to resolve. Um, cutting off my finger, like just made me better in a lot of weird ways. So that's why I don't mention it, I guess. Oh, that's interesting. And does that mean that, that because you lost your finger, you had to, um, and again, we should explain for climbers, your it's your point finger, which is an important finger for climbing. Not that one is less important than others, but is it because it then forced you to like have different angles and create something that new that others weren't able to to rely on or develop because they no one thought of it.

Like, help me understand that piece of it. That's cool. I mean, so there's a couple of reasons. First of all, I was sort of a hot. I wasn't like a hugely passionate climber. and when I chopped off my finger kind of pretty shortly after I got kidnapped in Kyrgyzstan, which I don't know if you want to go into that, but those two things together. Yeah, we're going to get there. Yeah, so those two things together made me understand how much climbing meant to me

because I felt like I could lose it. And I came out of those experiences like with this incredible zest to thrive and keep a hold of this activity that was that meant so much to me. The other side of it is, on one hand, I knew that the style of climbing that I was mostly focused on, which was like competition climbing and sport climbing and bouldering, which is very finger strength intense. Once I lost that finger, I knew that I was never going to be the best at that kind of thing. I was never going to reach my full potential in that way. And so it pushed me in this direction of adventure climbing, which I actually was way better at naturally in the first place. Okay. That's interesting. So it costs you a finger or half a finger, I guess, but you got

to look at what it might be like to lose that. And you said, it's almost like a love relationship. And I had something similar, Tommy, is that I was seven years married and we dated for eight years before that. So it was a love of my life. And she was like, yeah, I don't think this is working. And she was honest and she says, you're a good man, but I just don't think this is working. And it, and she was honest and she says, you're a good man, but I just don't feel like I can stay in this relationship anymore. And I know you had one of these moments as well. So that one for me though, like I dropped my hips, like, Oh, okay. I got to figure this thing out. I got to figure out how to be in the relationship, be better.

And so I became a much better person. And it sounds like it's a similar analogy. The way I think about it is like, you don't realize what you really love until you're at risk of losing it, like real risk of losing it. Is that a similar insight that you had? Yeah, I think that's really similar. And then it was a little more complicated for me because Kyrgyzstan was probably the bigger thing that changed me and it was all kind of around the same time. Okay, no one does it alone. And I want to share a couple sponsors that are making this show possible. performance. Whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday, what you put in your body matters. And that's why I trust Momentus. From the moment I sat down with Jeff Byers, their co-founder and

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You said it like it altered you that you couldn't be your best. I'm sorry, you couldn't be the best and your best. And I got confused about maybe what your prime driver is. Is it to be your best at that time? Maybe. Yeah. At sport bouldering and sport climbing specifically, like the real gymnastic pursuits of climbing, I've never been quite the best.

And I think I had anxiety over that when I was young. And so, you know, I think my youthful, um, kind of teenage self did want to be the best, but as I've gotten older, I'm way more concerned about, yeah, I don't know if I said my best, but reaching my potential is sort of the way that I view it. I want to be able to reach my full potential. How do you do that? How do you think about your potential? For me, it becomes- I don't know. I feel like that's a very elastic thing and it's hard to ever know. I mean, there's so much of the time that you have these perceived barriers and you totally break through them.

And those are kind of the best moments when you outperform your own best expectations. That's amazing. But then you have other expectations that you never reach. And so I actually don't know how to answer that question. Like, what is your best? As long as you're like really vigorously trying to get somewhere new, I think that's kind

of the best that I can do. Oh, my God. I love that answer because that's that strings right back to progression, like a fundamental commitment to progress. And that's really what the action sports I grew up in. That was kind of center of the culture. It's this fundamental, not this words on a wall, make it up like someone had to convince any of us. It's a fundamental commitment to progress at the fastest clip, the most honest clip possible. And so I see how you're squaring those two. I was talking to a gentleman asking that same question and he said, he was an

astronaut, and he said, it's about making the small micro decisions that are lining up with me being my best in that moment. And that's how he squares what his potential is. Does that seem right to you if you drill it all the way down to like the moment? The series of small micro decisions that you make in the moment is so influenced by your life experience and kind of everything that's led up to that moment and who you are as a person that the combination of that, I guess, does make you become what you perceive is your best at that moment. But I don't know. I mean, your best, like when, when people say things like your best, or even, you know, the title of this

podcast, finding mastery, I'm, I'm like, what is mastery? What is your best? I don't, I don't really know. It's such a fluid thing in my mind. Me too. That's why it's finding it. Like, I love the word fluid and elastic and progression. And they have contour to them, which I'm appreciating in your language even. And so, like, I see you as a master of craft. And as I'm listening to you, I think that you've got real deep insight of mastery of self. But do you not see yourself that way? I mean, I understand how I've learned more about my pursuit than most. And I suppose that is a definition of mastery. But I feel like I have endless curiosity, like there's always going to be a ton of room to improve. And so as long as I'm embracing that curiosity and trying to improve, I'm

in a good spot. Oh man. It's like, there's a refreshing nature about that because I think we'd all agree, or both of us would agree, like the path and the pursuit and, um, is, is really what defines mastery. It's not like, look at my shiny, you know, outcome. It's, it is a fundamental commitment on the path to being curious and getting better. So I'm, I'm refreshed to hear your take. How have you invested in understanding how you work, how your mind works, how the human experience works? How have you invested in that rich understanding? I think that it's hard to understand yourself within yourself. Like you have to look to your friends and your peers and you have to take time to deeply meditate. I mean,

I think that my investments in myself come in two ways. They come with spending time with friends and people that I respect, people that challenge me through conversation. And then it also comes with just taking the time to cut out the clutter. Like this summer, I did an expedition where I rode my bike all the way to Alaska. And part of the reason for doing that is because I knew that eight hours a day on a bicycle was going to give me a ton of time to just think and learn. And yeah, that's how I invested myself. So I've talked, I talk about the process of becoming more aware and there's like three main buckets. It's some sort of contemplative mindfulness,

internal process that you're trying to understand how you work better. There's conversations with people of wisdom. So I think that's your friend group that challenge you and better. There's conversations with people of wisdom. So I think that's your friend group that challenge you and that you respect. And then the other is journaling. And again, that's like a forcing function to be honest. You could bullshit yourself in the journaling, but if you're really approaching it, I'm super interested in not honest, like tell the truth, but like an honest human approach to getting better and to being a global citizen, like the honesty in that. And it shows up in journaling. It shows up in just about everything you do. And so you've indexed on the friends and you've indexed on alone time on a bike, you know, suffering in some cases to help you be more attuned to what's real

inside. It sounds like at least. Yeah. And I've indexed on the journaling too, I suppose, when I wrote a memoir. I mean, that's what that is. Like that was a personal therapy experiment. That was, you know, I wrote a book and it was more about trying to understand my own self and my own experiences more than it was for other people to read. I was just going to say the interesting thing about writing a book is that I felt like after writing it, I understood myself and my experiences a lot more, but I was uncertain whether I was any better off for it. Like in interesting ways, it made me darker and a little bit more angstful to really dig in and honestly look at my past. And so for the most part, I'm very glad that I did that. But sometimes I wonder if there's

a little bit of wisdom in blind optimism, at least in some realms of life. I think that there is not wisdom in blind optimism. There is, there's an ease in it. There's a naivete that can have some ease, but there's a dark side to me. There's a dark side to every person that I know in an honest way. And having the courage to examine those dark places is important. And it's important to find like this freedom on the other side that wisdom can, can provide. Like there's a buoyancy and a freedom when you deeply understand the true nature of yourself or the true nature of something that you've had to spend enough time to get to the essence of it. So I don't, I can't square those two.

And I feel like I can say that to you because I hear as like, I'll say something, you're like, ah, I don't get that. And I think that that's probably because your friendships of people you respect, they challenge you. And it's not just like a nodding my head. Yes. I just want to be liked by somebody. I feel like you are committed to that honest introspection.

I mean, one thing you just said that there's a freedom. Forget how you said it, but something like there's a freedom on the other side of that introspection. And I'm like, is there always a freedom on the other side of introspection? Like, does it always create freedom or the other side of introspection? Like, does it always create freedom? Or does it sometimes create just like difficulty? Like, I guess what I'm thinking of is like, when I've dug into the darker parts of my life, especially with interpersonal relationships, where you inevitably end up thinking about the darker parts of those people as well.

Maybe it's not always good to dig, dig there, you know? I guess it depends on what, like what the, the aim is, you know, like I, there is a ignorance is bliss. That phrase probably came from somewhere, you know? Um, I, I feel like I want to know, I feel like I, I, I, I do want to know as a, and I hear what you're saying as well. Like when you do some of this deep work, you're challenged to face some things that maybe it's left. It's better. It's easier left unsaid or easier left unexamined. Would you make a case to not doing the internal work?

Like take it in the other direction? I mean, one thing I wanted to say is like 98% of me agrees with you completely. Like it's good to do the work. Like you should understand yourself and dig as deeply as you can. 98% of me thinks that. But there is 2% of me that is like, just occasionally it's better not to. I don't know. Are you a contrarian?

I don't think you're a pessimist. I don't think you're a critic of self or others. I do want to understand that. Are you a contrarian in some respect? Like when the world says zig, maybe I should zag. The world says introspection, maybe I should. Do you have a contrarian nature? Generally not.

But I just did a two month trip with an incredible contrarian. And so maybe some of that rubbed off on me. I spent two months with somebody where we just debated everything for like two months. And so maybe that's my headspace right now, which I actually really enjoyed. Oh, God. Biked all the way to Alaska with Alex Honnold, which some people – I mean if you've seen the movie Free Solo, you probably get a little bit of his contrarian side. But basically his favorite hobby is like taking people's life work and like cutting it down to size. He does that to me, he does that

to everybody, you know? His nickname, no big deal, an old, like, you know, he was on the, he was on the podcast earlier and I, I had that feeling that he, you know, just be blasé about it. Like, it's not that big a deal. Yeah. Some things are like when you're scaling, you know, 3000 feet and you've got no support mechanisms like it's it's a pretty fucking big deal. So maybe he's earned that position. I don't know. Yeah, he talked about intuition, like listening to your intuition. Is there a process that you could point to that helps to do that. I mean, I think it takes a lot of time to get to a place where you trust what's inside of you. And so that's something you can look forward to as you get older. And then if you were to help somebody have deeper trust of self, what would you point to or what would be some guidance? I think people stop trusting themselves when they listen to the naysayers who they shouldn't listen to. Like there are certain naysayers you should listen to, right?

Like people that really love you. But there's a lot of naysayers out there that you should just kind of blow off. And I think that I learned that from a pretty young age and that's been really useful to me. How did you learn that? This goes back to Kyrgyzstan again. Maybe we should go there. Let's get to, let's get to Kyrgyzstan. Yeah, no, let's, let's jump right into it because I wanted to get some of these framings before we dive into Kyrgyzstan because it's such a, as a, as a observer of it, like it's a heavy experience.

And so can you start from the beginning of how you found yourself in Kyrgyzstan? And I just want to absorb how you understand that experience. And can you just open this whole thing up and walk me through your experience? Yeah, definitely. Before I do that, I'll say this is an interesting conversation because generally I don't talk about it tons, but your approach to interviewing and your view on life is so introspective and it's in a way that I've realized that Kyrgyzstan did affect all those things that we talk about tremendously.

And so I think that's why I keep referring back to it. So I mean, Kyrgyzstan was the biggest life-changing event that's why i keep referring back to it so i mean kyrgyzstan was the biggest life-changing event that's ever happened to me you know i was 21 years old i turned 21 in kyrgyzstan and uh it was my first big international expedition before this i was a sport climber i was you know a competition climber i I wasn't traveling internationally, but this was my first big, like real adventure trip. I went to the country of Kyrgyzstan, um, with the, with a group of three other friends of four of us total is funded by the North face. It was also my first like sponsored trip that I've ever done. I was not a sponsored climber. I just came along as like the rigger. I was, I was still getting going in what i do now um but on

this trip we you know we flew into this remote mountain valley in a helicopter that was like you know 50 or 60 miles from the nearest town there was a few local villagers up there in the mountains but um it was on the border of uzbekistan and tajikistan and Kyrgyzstan. There's like these fingers that are kind of intertwined, these really remote mountain borders and these high mountain passes. And about a week into our trip, we were up on a mountain sleeping in portal edges, like these hanging cots a thousand feet up this wall.

When we awoke on our second morning on the wall to gunshots and somebody was, you know, down on the ground shooting up at us with a long-range, like, you know, assault rifle. And that's basically how we got taken hostage. So we were up on this mountain. We were getting shot at. We had a big camera lens. We could look down, see these heavily armed men and, you know,

kind of waving for us to come down. And so we had to come down and we got taken hostage. And we found ourselves in the middle of this like little war that broke out between the Islam movement of Uzbekistan and the Kyrgyz military in this very remote valley. It seemed like the most bizarre thing in the world that this would happen so far from anything. But sort of the mechanics of that is these rebel groups use these remote high mountain passes as ways to get over borders. And so we kind of just found ourselves in the middle of that. You know, we got taken hostage right as the Kyrgyz military was showing up in the same valley. We're like at the point of collision between these two forces. And the

Islamic movement of Uzbekistan got to us first. We got taken hostage, a full war broke out around us. We had to ditch all of our, all of our food and clothing. You know, we just had the clothing on our backs and run from the Kyrgyz military as hostages. Our captors had to, had to abandon everything as well. And then we spent six days like hiding from the kirghiz military in these you know like very unlikely hiding places we were like on the verge of hypothermia we would like tuck ourselves under boulders by rivers and places that you never

think people could spend 12 hours during the daylight hours and then at night we'd get up and we'd walk around. Like I said, we didn't have any food. We would occasionally find water, but we all lost about 20 pounds in weight in the six day period. And it was, I don't know, scary in a way that still feels like I'm looking through a mirror when I think about it. It was like, I'm kind of used to experiencing fear and pain, but this was a whole new level. And after six days, we found ourselves climbing up a really steep mountainside with just one of our remaining captors, the other three.

We were originally kidnapped by four rebels, and they kind of disappeared one by one. And on this last night, this sort of leader of the group instructed the three of us with just one young member of the Islam movement. It was back to stand to like climb up this steep hillside. And he was going to try and circle around to our base camp, find some more food and meet us on top.

And as we were climbing this mountainside, it was really obvious that this one captor who was like a 19 year old hired mercenary, he was, you know, is scared by the whole situation as we were, it became obvious that he was super uncomfortable. And we were climbing this really steep mountainside. He had these sort of cheap army boots on and this big gun. We were rock climbers. We were very used to this terrain and we were all kind of on the verge of, um, you know, we were, we were in bad shape. Like we had lost 20 pounds. A storm was rolling in. You could, you could smell rain in the air for the first time in a long time. And we knew that if we didn't find a way to escape, we just weren't going to last much longer. And so on this mountainside, I took it upon myself to push this guy off this particularly exposed spot.

Like I pushed him off a cliff and then we ran down valley for like 10 miles to a military outpost and eventually escaped. Yeah, it was a pretty heavy experience for a 21 year old. What is it like sharing that story with you right now? I mean, it's still slightly uncomfortable. I think I've talked about it enough over the years that I'm kind of used to it, but it hits me differently at different times in my life. I mean, I think that occasionally I'll share the story and I'll feel uneasy in a way that surprises me. And it makes me understand that there's probably still more to unpack there. There's still things lingering that I don't fully understand about it. I actually haven't told this,

I haven't told the story for probably a couple of years though. I don't think I tell it much these days just because it was so long ago at this point. What is the thing that you find during the crosshairs? So would you call this trauma and traumatic as an experience? Yeah, absolutely. And then so oftentimes what happens with trauma is that we're squared with a new way of thinking or we're overwhelmed with a particular sensation that we reorganize our life to avoid that trauma in the future. So the actual insult is not the experience in and of itself. It's the new way of thinking about oneself and the world. And that becomes so overwhelming that like,

let's say we witnessed something super heavy on the freeway around this particular type of bend with tall trees. It's like, no, no, no, I don't go near those bends on a freeway with tall trees anymore. Or actually I don't like tall trees anymore, or I don't like curves on freeways. There's this reorganization of one's life. And oftentimes what happens, Tommy, is that there's like a squaring or a bit of a crisis on how we think and experience the world. And so did any of that come up as you're talking like, oh shit, the thing that's there for me is like, I don't know, let me, let me just muse a little bit. Like, am I a hero or am I a murderer? Am I a, you know, am, am, am I somebody who is like deeply aligned with the values of taking care of others?

Or did some like, is there, what is the thing that squares with you in the process? I think actually sort of what you mentioned, like the hero versus a murderer side of it. That is something that's been, I mean, especially right after it happened, I felt very conflicted about that. I feel like there was a lot of years where I felt less so, you know, I kind of came to a place of peace with it. But, you know, I don't know. I think each time I tell it, it kind of strikes me a little bit differently. And now one final word from our sponsors.

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mastery. And with that, let's jump right back into this conversation. The reason I brought that up is because I think that would be my dilemma. And I, you know, everyone's got a different kind of way of thinking about it. And I think over through work, I'd want to get to the place that like I live by values that I was taking care of loved ones and I was taking, I did the hard thing that, but I understand that. How have you worked through it? You know, there's certain things like there are certain abilities that that whole circumstance brought to my life that really sort of facilitated a really awesome life since then. And I guess I've focused on those and I've been able to, you know, find the positives in a way that feels really genuine and true to me for the most part.

But I kind of wonder if you were to talk to other people on the experience who didn't sort of like find the post-traumatic growth through it, if they would think that how I talk about it, it's kind of BSs you know sometimes sometimes I wonder like I like I can like I can point to the um the fact that it changed my perspective for things like pain and suffering like I don't feel those in the same way that I used to like um what we are physically capable of completely changed through that experience and I talk about those and it really has made me much more successful in my climbing life since then. Like I can endure a lot because just nothing really seems that scary or painful. But if you didn't come out of that

experience, having felt that you might just think that I'm, that I'm trying to only focus through the focus on the good stuff and being blind to the real trauma that happened there. I hear post-traumatic growth in your language. I'm like, that's a cool opportunity to get to that place where you're like, yeah, I'm different in a better way for it. What do you think would have been harder? What you did or what you would not have done? And we can only imagine what would have happened if you didn't take that action. But sometimes the, the guilt of not taking action or the, the complication in feelings and emotions of not taking action can be equally, if not more overwhelming than somebody who took action. I think taking action probably in the long run

really helped me get through it. Like the fact that I gained sort of the knowledge that I can, like when things really are on the line, I know, you know, you always wonder how you're gonna, how you're gonna perform when you really have to. And I learned that. And that's been, that's been great for my life in a lot of ways. And I oftentimes, or I sometimes think about Jason Singer, who was technically the head of our expedition. He's the guy that put it together. He was on the trip with us. And the whole time we were held captive, he was scheming and planning in a really brilliant way of how we were going to escape. And then at the end of the day, he just couldn't make it happen. And he's, I would say, struggled mightily since then.

And I sometimes wonder if I hadn't taken action, would I have struggled in the same way that he does? Yeah. I mean, what a heavy condition for, I think you said 20 something, 21? Yeah, 21 years old. 21 year old. Like what a heavy position. And has part of your process been

therapy or has it been like, like you said, you know, friends that have been holding you accountable, loving you, seeing you, giving you space. What has been your path forward to work through that part of that trauma? Early on, I tried therapy. Um, and it didn't really work out. Like it was just such an out there experience that I felt like my therapists, and this was maybe my own ego getting in the way of it, but they just didn't have anything to like compare it to or relate it to. They would try and like compare it to things. And I'd just be like, that sounds not right. And so I tried, it doesn't sound right. Yeah. Yeah. I tried that a little bit. And so I ended up kind of relying more on my friends and on the act of

just climbing, like doing what I love. And that seemed, that seemed good for me, but maybe that's just because I, I couldn't hear the therapist back then. Like maybe if I were to go to therapy now, it would be, it would seem more, more useful to me. Yeah. I get that too. Like, man, I really appreciate your sensitivities, your honesty. I hope that I've got a narrative in my head. Like I hope that the questions I'm asking are not insensitive. No, no, no. Your way of asking questions is just so intellectual. I find it a little bit challenging, but I don't find it insensitive. Um, and so your, your way of asking questions is just so intellectual. I find it a little bit challenging, but I don't find it insensitive at all. I think it's great. It's like, yeah, it's awesome. Yeah. I don't want to over-intellectualize this as I guess, part of my point. Like I, the felt experience is, um, I don't, let me just pause for a minute because my, my experience hearing you say this is like, I, I see you as an amazing human that is a work in progress.

And this was an, um, a radical experience. And I just want to understand how you've used your progress, your progression, your, your philosophy of life to, to move through it. I'm not trying to compare it at all. I just want to say that I feel you and I appreciate you is the short of what I want to say. And I just want to say thank you for going to a place that's hard to go to. Yeah, no worries. Thank you. Yeah. Okay, cool. Maybe we can even make it more applied and like, can you share how you use this experience in your love life with your family and maybe even double click on how you use this these insights that you've

gathered from this experience with your most recent ascent of devil's thumb like can you go two ways on relationships and your your recent ascent How I used Kyrgyzstan. Yeah, how you use the insights from that experience in your love life now. And also on the technical part of like doing something, again, that no one's ever done before, like devil's thumb. Yeah, we'll hit on the love life side first. Okay, cool. I think after Kyrgyzstan i for a time went very

internal you know i just had to process things myself but i pretty quickly after that turned towards the friends and family that were really close to me and i got way closer with them not my parents but like my close friends and And then, and then my girlfriend, Beth, at the time, at the time of Kyrgyzstan, who was there with us, who I eventually married, like I became very, very close to them and probably reliant on them in ways that I wasn't before. And then with my love life, specifically with Beth, probably pretty codependent. Like we were, we had experienced this thing that nobody else could really understand. And we were the only ones that we could talk to each other about it or really be in the presence

of somebody who kind of understood life post that. And that was great for a time and then maybe less great as it went forward. And so I think I've thought a lot about like dependence, then codependence, and maybe independence now with my current love life with my wife, Rebecca, and my children now. Like I think I spent a period of time post-Kyrgyzstan with Beth where we really just focused on each other and we didn't take the time to understand who we were as individuals. And now with my current life, I really value that time as individuals. Like we have to have this closer relationship together, but we really have to take the time to understand who we are just as ourselves. Understand who we are just as ourselves. Understand who we are just as ourselves. God bless it. That is one of the most loving things that I think a person could do is to really embrace the other person for exactly

who they are. And maybe value figuring that out for yourself too. You know, like I think with, with Beth, I was so focused on like trying to help her like function in life and not focused on myself. And now I'm kind of in ways like more selfish, but in, but that allows me to, you know, like since I take that time to be more selfish, it allows me to then give myself to others better outside of that time. I don't know if that makes sense. Yeah, it does. So a lot of people call you crazy, call your lifestyle crazy, you know, maybe not you directly, but people call your lifestyle crazy. You know, when you think of a crazy lifestyle, what do you think of? Like over-materialism, like people who just fill their lives with so much stuff because they can and it makes them feel better.

That's what seems crazy to me. Why is that? I mean, I'm a bit of an environmentalist these days and it's like destroying the world. We're trying to consume so much and we just have access to so much and we're buying so much and everything's so cheaply made. And I'm like, this is actually killing the planet. And that is insanity. It's like, I mean, if we were even more concrete and we're trying to navigate, let's go 1500s and we're trying to figure out if the world's flat or not, right? Like Magellan is one of my heroes. And I'll tell you why just quickly is that he got kicked out of his first country, went

to his country that he was at war with, convinced the queen and the king to give him five of their elite ships on this idea that I'm going to go figure this thing out. And along the way, if it is true that the world is round and we're going to go figure this thing out. And along the way, if it is true that, you know, the world is round and we're going to grab some land now and, you know, like you're going to benefit from that. And they're like, yes, let's go for it. And so like he was pushing up against what everybody thought was crazy and impossible. Now, he didn't come back alive. You know, I don't know if that's well known about

the story of Magellan. But it would be like if we were on that ship with Magellan and we're fully committed to go to the frontier, to live well, to figure out potential, da-da-da-da. And then we start grabbing weapons and shooting the boat that we're on. That's what it feels like to be an excessive spender of gasoline and oil and plastic. And I think to your point, and like nobody would think that shooting our own ship, shooting a hole in mother nature is a good way to go. And so when you say crazy, I go, yeah, I get that. I totally get that. When people say that you're crazy, not your lifestyle, but that what you, they don't say you're nuts, you're crazy.

They don't do it like that, but they're like, man, I don't get you. And like, how can you do that? How selfish are you that you put your loved ones at risk? How do you respond to that? I mean, I don't know if I totally know how to respond. Like, you know, there's certain things in my life that I completely understand when people say that. Like, I'm like, you're right. I probably shouldn't do that. Like, that is a little crazy. But I don't really ever go into these experiences being like, I'm going to willingly risk my life.

I always go into it being like, I'm going to do this thing that I know so much about, and that's going to allow me to push the envelope maybe more than other people do. But it's always going to be within reason. Like, I'm going to be safe. I'm not going to be risking my life that much. And I think almost all the time that works out to be true like that's how that's how it happens but there are there are occasions where i push it too far and then i kind of regret it or question it afterwards yeah i have a different experience is that i um like i'm maybe unhealthily obsessed with the the my life purpose and this the mission that i'm on. And, you know, like there's a time commitment to do that. And it pulls me away from my time commitment with my family. That's the part that I have a hard time squaring. And I feel like you might be at home with me there, but I don't, I don't know how to really square that. And so, I mean, do you have any best practices there for people that

spend a lot of time at quote unquote work, whatever that work life is? I don't know if I am a great person to ask about that. Cause although I do, like I do leave for long periods of time on occasion when I'm home, I'm like really home. Like I actually spend a tremendous amount of time with my family and I feel like I've got a pretty good balance in that way. And I think my wife would agree. I think my kids would agree. Like even when I left for two months this summer, they were like, man, you haven't really left on a big expedition for 10 years. Like this is checking so many boxes. This is like definitely what you need to be doing right now. And so like if anything I spend, I probably spend more time with my family than basically any

other driven person that I know. And so I'm pretty happy with that. Was that the devil's thumb? Was that the expedition? Yeah. Can you just open that up quickly? Like what goes into it? Like actually maybe describe what it is, but it might be a nice moment to say like, how

do you prepare? And there's this process of the world thinks that that can't be done. I think maybe. And then how do I actually materially go in and plan, then prepare to do something that the world thinks is out of bounds? So I would like to understand your process there. In the case of the devil's thumb, I don't know if it's something that the world thought couldn't be done. Like every element of that climb seemed relatively doable. But the overall magnitude of the trip seems absurd in a way that I really love. So in terms of planning a trip like that, I don't know.

In some ways, trips like that are always years in the making. I have an idea of something that I really want to do and it morphs over time until it becomes the truest version of what it needs to be and that's when I press go and actually do the trip. So for the Devil's Thumb, it started because of, I do this work through my main employer, Patagonia, to protect nature. You know, they're a great company in terms of environmental initiatives, and they're always getting involved in protecting big swaths of land. And Tongass National Forest, which is where the Devil's Th is in southeast alaska um you know is a chunk of land that has been exploited throughout history quite a lot and there's various political maneuvers that make it easier to exploit and harder to exploit and um you know a couple years ago it came down to this rule called the roadless rule where they were trying to prohibit road building in southeast Alaska and Tongass National Forest to make it so that the logging companies couldn't get in there and extract the trees.

That was sort of the way they were protecting the land. Anyways, I got like all involved in this process and I was like, I want to advocate to to like protect this nature. And there's one of the most kind of like mythical you know badass mountain ranges around and so it kind of was like i'm gonna go climb this mountain that i think is really awesome to climb and i'm gonna tell a story about it and use that as a mechanism to you know like raise awareness so that for this place so that people care about and therefore want to protect it. And the mountain itself was like just a tool to do that. But then as I started to research the mountain, I was like, oh man, this is actually one of the harder mountains to climb anywhere. It's right in the middle of a rainforest, which means the weather is terrible. It's actually been

historically incredibly dangerous. Like I think by the numbers, it might be the most dangerous mountain in the world. I'm telling this climate change story. And as I research it more, I find out that that is bad in certain ways. Like climate change is a big part of the story. And climate change has made this mountain harder to get to, but actually maybe way safer. And so I get curious about how that could change. Like there's this face on the mountain that is the, people call it the last great unclimbed face in North American mountaineering because it's, you know, covered in ice and snow and has avalanches. And because of the receding glaciers, the glaciers have like receded off the mountain. It's just dry rock now. And that's

really happened in the last decade. I'm like, are we going to be able to go and climb this mountain easily that historically you can't really climb because of climate change? It's kind of an interesting story. And so I get wrapped up in all that stuff. But then as I'm thinking about it more, I'm thinking about these friends in Europe who have got this theory of getting, you know, they're trying to figure out ways to tell great stories of being lower impact in life. And so they've stopped flying on airplanes and they've stopped riding in cars and they call it green pointing. They go and try and do a climbing objective

without using internal combustion engines. And I was like, well, that makes sense in Europe. And it actually adds to the adventure. You have to figure out how to take public transportation and then ride your bike. But I'm like, does that make sense in North America? And I started to think to myself, man, if I could do that on a North American scale,

actually go to Alaska by bike, climb this crazy mountain, that would be, you know, what an adventure, you know? And then, and then. What an adventure. Yeah. And then, and then, so I type, I type into just like Google my home and then the devil's thumb. And then I hit the bike directions thing and I realized it takes me right by these other two places I wanted to climb. And so this summer, and so I'm

like, man, this just turns into this like epic huge trip where I'm going to spend all summer on my bike and I'm going to climb at these different places. I'm going to climb this mountain that's very interesting. And so that's a very long-winded way of telling you how it came together, I guess. Finding Mastery is brought to you by iRestore. When it comes to my health, I try to approach things with a proactive mindset. It's not about avoiding poor health. This is about creating the conditions for growth. Now, hair health is one of those areas that often gets overlooked until your hair starts to change. That's when people pay attention. That's why I've been loving iRestore Elite.

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Plus an extra $50 off when you use the code FINDINGMASTERY at checkout. That's Lisa, L-E- L E E S a.com. The promo code is finding mastery for 25% off and then plus an extra $50 on us because quality sleep is just too important to leave to chance. When you look back at this adventure, this first of 10 year, um, you know, project that you've been on, when you kind of push, I think you're just a couple of weeks out of it. Like when you push your chair back, how do you think about what you've learned and what you achieved? There are two different things, I think. First of all, it was like one of the best trips ever. Like it was purely positive. I've had some

experiences that went awry in various ways. This trip was just awesome. You know, so fun. I was with a great partner. Everything went, you know, basically as planned. And it was an epic adventure. In terms of what I've learned, I guess I'll go back to the time on the bike was really kind of incredible, especially in a world. Like I climbed the Dawn Wall, you know, what was it? 14 years ago now. And my life has been crazy ever since. And this was the first time where I actually had like a lot of time to just like, just be on my bike for hours every day and just sort of think about life. And it built a ton of gratitude, you know, taking that time to step back just made me feel incredibly gracious and then I also learned a lot about the forest itself like

we rode all the way through central British Columbia and you know when you travel all summer by bike you understand how ecosystems are linked and you go from one place to the next and you're so much more a part of the landscape than you are when you fly or even drive like now flying or driving feels like teleportation like you just skip what's in between whereas when you fly or even drive. Like now flying or driving feels like teleportation. Like you just skip what's in between. Whereas when you bike, you feel it all and you see it all. And that was really, really beautiful. And then on this trip, we went and we spent three days

with this incredible indigenous activist on Prince of Wales Island who has, like her community, really understands the forest and thinks about it deeply in a way that we learned a lot from them and so it really became this trip of on one hand connecting with nature but also connecting with myself and connecting with the few friends that I was with like I was with Alex Honnold and then our photographer friend Taylor for almost just the three of us for like seven weeks, you know? And when you're just with three people, basically only those three people for that much time,

you get to know them really well and you bond in this incredible way. So it was like a trip that was largely about friendship with those, with those two. It's one of our kind of deep insights here at Finding Mastery is that through relationships, we become. And it's through your relationship with yourself, with others, with mother nature, with experience, with machines, that we become who we are working on becoming. And so I really appreciate how you just squared that as well. There's another first principle at Finding Mastery, which is nobody does it alone. The extraordinary is too big. It's too complicated. It's too multifaceted. Can you talk about relationships in that way, like relying on other people? And

can you talk about how you think about relationships? Because you've talked about them as a thread throughout this entire experience, even so much so that, go back to the Don Wall for a minute, is that you were about ready to be quote unquote on paper successful, to climb the Don Wall, be the first person to do the first ascent. But you had a partner who you were doing it with and he was stuck. And that moment for me is like, you're a person who really values relationships. Success that is not shared is not success. It's still failure.

And can you just talk about that idea that no one does it alone and tee off on it if you don't think it's right or double down on how you make sense of that idea? I mean, I definitely think it's right. I think when I was young, I was so objective focused. I was so goal oriented and those goals didn't have like another person's name in the byline. It was just like me accomplishing this thing. And I learned through the years that that's not right at all. Like the goal is really just a mechanism to facilitate relationships with friends and sort of like progression in myself and the adventure. The actual goal means a lot less to me than it used to. And it's so easy to tell. I mean, people talk about the Dawn Wall as like, you know,

doing this thing that nobody I thought was possible. And like in saying that, that's emphasizing that goal, you know, it's emphasizing success on the Dawn wall. And, and it never was that for me. I mean, or I mean, there was an element of that, but that was not, and then people always ask, like, how did you, how did you persevere for seven years to make that happen? And I'm like, it really was. I mean, it's always everybody's question is about like accomplishing that thing, but it's not really about accomplishing that thing. It's just like, it's about finding a tool to have these great experiences with other people. That is so cool. Yeah. Like, like the wall was an instrument to have a relationship with,

with yourself, with mother nature and with Kevin, your partner, your climbing partner at that point. Yeah, exactly. And even the devil's thumb in a way was just, it was the exact same thing. What scares you? I mean, as I think almost any father would say this, but like once you have kids, like the idea of something happening to them is what scares's a special comb for, I don't know, stimulating hair follicles or whatever. And it's a little bit of a, I don't know, it's some sort of rock. And so it doesn't look like a normal cone. It looks like a piece of rock

that is designed to decide who knows what it is, okay? But my son walks in and it's green. So he just picked the name Jade. He says, wow, you've really made it. And he's got this big grin on his face. You've really made it if you buy a Jade comb for your hair, mom. And he's dying of laughing. And we all laughed and he walked away. And it's not an expensive thing. So he walked away and I had this like almost like pit my stomach which was like oh how is that's right like he's 15 you're like he's going to be facing quote unquote

making it and in life on his own at some point and like I can't wait to see how he defines making it and I hope it's not buying a jade cone and you comb in his mind, you know, like, I just can't wait. Like, do you, do you, I get like, there was a pit in my stomach, like it is excitement and a bit of nervousness, um, all at the same time. At least that's how I interpret that feeling. When you think about making it, I know we talked about success earlier, but when you think about your kids making it, how do you think about that? Oh man, I don't know. I think that I want them to define it for themselves. Like, I don't know. I think me putting a definition on what making it is,

I don't know. It just doesn't feel right to me. Like I want them to discover it. Like the cliche thing to say is like, oh, as long as they're happy. I mean, maybe happiness isn't what fulfills you. I mean, is it fulfillment? I don't know. I think it's different for everyone. And so, um, I mean, on one hand, there's, I have a lot of anxiety over like my kids getting hurt or like, you know, whether I'm going to ruin them as, as these little human beings and totally screw up parenting. But on the other hand, it's like, I, you know, like, I don't have a whole lot of say in it in the long run. Like they're going to end up who, who they are, who they're going to be. And I'm really excited to see them discover that and see

them go through that process. Tommy, you can't be a helicopter parent. I cannot imagine you being a helicopter. Are you, are you a helicopter parent? No, no, I'm't be a helicopter parent. I cannot imagine you being a helicopter. Are you, are you a helicopter parent? No, no, I'm definitely not a helicopter parent. I mean, like I have anxiety around my kids, but I'm like very good at, um, at letting them, you know, discover who they are. Actually. I, I remember when my kids were really young, we'd be, you know, we're flying all over the world, going on cool trips and with my family. And I would just like, let my kids just like wander off in the airport. And I'd always kind of like keep an eye on them. But, you know, a two-year-old like toddling around in the air power without their parents

right there is not something that you ever see. And so people would always be like, where's this kid's parents, you know? And I was always like, I'm just trying not to be a helicopter parent. Tommy, what's one thing you used to value that you don't value anymore? I used to value what strangers thought of me. And I would say now I value what the people I love think of me more. That is so good. Okay. And then, you know, as I said, these big goals that facilitate relationships. And right now I don't know what my next goal is. Like, I don't, I don't think I ever truly pursue something until it becomes something I absolutely can't not do. And so I'll be searching for that. And in the meantime,

you know, enjoying my time with my family and friends and just trying to live every day to its fullest. Tommy, I just want to say thank you. And, um, uh, you know, I try to have very, um, I try not to have expectations about how things will go, but I do have hopes. And, um, I hoped that you and I would find a bit of a vibe. I felt it. And so I appreciate this conversation and just how you share and search for words. And I feel like you're committed to being honest in the conversation. It's just refreshing. And I just want to say, I really appreciate you and this conversation. And I'm wondering if you could just maybe send us off with a few things that you think would be really important for people to work on getting better at. And that's coming from somebody who has pushed edges, been dedicated to nature, been dedicated to relationships. And if you could hope for others

based on what you've learned and experienced through your trauma and your growth experiences, what would you hope people would invest in to be just a little bit better version of themselves or just to be a little bit happier, more fulfilled? I mean, I think I would answer this question so differently at different times in my life. But right now, at this time in my life, I think that valuing the other people in your and understand how, or at least be curious about how they view the world so differently than I do and learn a little bit about that. Like endless curiosity about the people around you. Dude, that is an awesome daily practice. Like that's something that I could think about.

Like even as you say it, I'm going to do that today, you know, with a handful of folks that I probably haven't celebrated how much I appreciate their difference, you know, like how they're different and what a great compliment is to know that they've got that part of our relationship buttoned up, you know, like, and I can almost like trust that they'll hold me accountable in these ways or whatever. Like I, that is a great daily practice that I'm going to deploy. Um, thank you. I'm in, I'm in on that. Right on. Love it. All right. I'm wishing you the best. Please thank your family for the time that you've shared with us. And, um, I hope our paths cross in

person at some point. Yeah. I just like, awesome. Thank you, Tommy. Yeah, absolutely. I really love your gratitude. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. All right.

I appreciate you and all the best. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're listening. Also, if you haven't already, please consider dropping us a review on Apple or Spotify. We are incredibly grateful for the support and feedback. If you're looking for even more insights, we have a newsletter we send out every Wednesday.

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