Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - English Cricketer Alec Stewart on Authenticity, Work Ethic, and Vision

Episode Date: August 23, 2017

In these conversations, it's my intent to really dig, relentlessly dig, to work to understand the truth. The truth of the nature of the conversation, but also the truth of the person.And opening up is challenging - it's a really hard thing to do, as many of us can recognize, to be authentic and to be vulnerable. But in this conversation with Alec Stewart, it just worked and it was a pleasure.Alec is a former English cricketer, a right-handed batsman-wicketkeeper and former captain of the England cricket team.He is the second most capped English cricketer of all time in Test matches and 3rd most capped in One Day Internationals (ODIs), having played in 133 Tests and 170 ODIs.He's got a storied tradition and an incredible body of work.Alec now acts as an executive director of Surrey, one of eighteen first-class county clubs within the domestic cricket structure of England and Wales.This conversation is about enjoyment for relentless hard word and appreciation for the way it feels.It’s about setting a vision and having the confidence to pursue it.Alec gives it his best shot with anything he does whether it’s training for his sport or washing his car – it all matters to him.Some people have a hard time articulating their philosophy but Alec’s is quite clear – how can you be your best if you don’t do everything to the best of your ability.He’s got a knack for always wanting to achieve more and doesn’t believe it’s possible without the proper preparation for whatever the task is at hand.And so this is a human being that has excelled on the world stage, that is talking about how he loves the relentless work to get better and how important preparation is.You know we've heard this story before but it's so unique when it comes from one of the best in the world.It feels like lightning in a bottle -- he's authentically himself in so many moments and I think you just feel that in this conversation.Special thanks to Dean Riddle who made this conversation possible while I was overseas on a trip geared towards harvesting knowledge from world class performers, thinkers, and doers.“Whatever you do, make sure you do it to the best of your ability.”_________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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or disappointment or you've retired, if you stay pretty level-headed, then I like people like that. All right, welcome back or welcome to the Finding Mastery podcast. I'm Michael Gervais. And the idea behind these conversations is to learn. It's to learn from people who are on the path of mastery to better understand their psychological framework, which is how they understand how the world works, how they make sense of events, and how they think about their future and their past. And the second part is we want to dig to understand the mental skills that they've used to build and refine their craft.

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dig to work, to understand the truth, the truth of the nature of the conversation, but also the truth of the person. And it's hard. It's really hard to do as, as many of us can recognize to be authentic and to be vulnerable and to be open is really challenging. And in this conversation, it just worked and it was just a pleasure.

So this conversation is with Alec Stewart. Alec is a former English cricketer, a right-handed batsman wicketer, and a former captain of the England cricket team. He's the second most capped English cricketer of all time in test matches and the third most capped in one day internationals. Those are called ODIs for the cricket fans. And having played in 133 tests and 170 ODIs, I mean, he's got a storied tradition and an incredible body of work. And Alec now acts as the executive director of Surrey. And it's one of the first class country clubs within the domestic cricket structure of England and Wales. And when I had the chance to visit there, it is beautiful. I mean, it is stunning.

This conversation is about enjoyment for relentless hard work and appreciation for the way it feels to work hard, the way it feels to grow. And he's really clear about that. And for him, it's about setting a vision and having the confidence to pursue it. And he's got some great strategies and how he thinks about that. Alex gives it his best shot with everything that he does, whether it's training for his sport or washing his car, everything matters to him. And he's really switched on. And that definitely comes through in this conversation. And his philosophy is really clear as well. Some people, they have a hard time articulating their philosophy and he was crisp with how he articulated. And for him, it's how

can you be your best if you don't do everything to the best of your ability? That's really nice. Okay. And he's got a knack for always wanting to achieve more. And he doesn't believe it's possible without the proper preparation for whatever the task is at hand. And so this is a human being that has excelled on the world stage that is talking about how he loves the relentless work to get better and how important preparation is. You know, we've heard this story before, but it's so unique when

it comes from one of the best in the world. It feels like there's some sort of lightning in a bottle in this conversation. And he's just authentic. He's authentically himself in so many moments. And I think you just feel that in this conversation. And special thanks to Dean Riddle who made this conversation possible and super grateful for the connection to be able to spend time with Alec. So while I was overseas on a trip to really harvest knowledge and understandings from world-class performers and thinkers and doers, this was just a gem of a conversation. So with that, let's jump right into this conversation with Alec Stewart. How you doing? Very good. Thank you very much.

So we just had a, what I would call one of those stimulating conversations. And it was just like organic. It was real. And it was about kind of asking questions and sorting out answers about how things really work in elite sport. And you've been in this game for a long time, on the world stage for a long time. So I just want to say thank you in advance and thank you for the conversation we just had.

No, listen, it's been great. It's been easy chatting to you. I've just met you. But no, it's nice when conversations flow. There's obviously some common ground. It was a good topic and good subjects to speak on. Yeah, it is. And, you know, a mutual friend of ours put us together and you've known him for a long time as well.

Yeah, Dean Riddle. First met him, I'll be mid-90s, 96, 97, somewhere around there when he became the first strength and conditioning coach of the England cricket team and got on really well with him. I sort of prided myself a reasonable amount on my fitness without having too much education. It was just I wanted to be fit. And then he took it to another level and I've learned a lot from him.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I haven't seen him for 10, 12 years. He was a big stickler of a timekeeping, which I am, and he should have been here two hours ago. See? And we've from him. So he'll be fine. I'll work on a hundred pound a minute. He owes us a lot of money. Perfect. Yeah, that's good. I'll take the tax out of him. No worries at all. Thank you. Okay, good. So I'm pulling up into the stadium here and we're at your stadium that you're coaching at and that you played for a long time and your name's on the outside so how does one

get their name on the outside of a stadium by luck you could say oh listen i played here at the oval for 23 years as a player and when i retired oh it's not called a stadium is it it's called the ground either or is that right it's a cricket ground grounds yeah sorry about that other people call it it is a stadium but generally they're called cricket grounds. It's just going back in time. I have no problems with it being a stadium because I actually think it is now. Yeah. And then I packed in in 2003, retired from England, retired from Surrey,

and they wanted to sort of mark the occasion or mark my contributions to the club. And it's a massive honour, I'll be honest, to have the gates. They're called the Alex Stewart gates because I've always believed that you only get gates named after you once you're dead. So each morning I wake up and I'm still breathing. That's a bonus. It feels good, doesn't it?

And I can walk through the gates. And more times than not, they let me in. On the odd occasion, they've asked to see some identification when they've had a new security guard on. And I sort of just say, well, that sign there actually is me. Try not to be too arrogant. But no, it's a massive honour, to be honest. Because the front gates are the Jack Hobbs gates.

And he is one of the greatest cricketers that's ever played the game. A real stalwart of Surrey County Cricket Club and England. So to think that the front gate, as I call it, the Jack Hobbs Gates, he's a wonderful cricketer. You know, one of the greatest ever. And down at the other end,

old little me, having a set of gates is pretty special. You're presenting as being humble at the same time. I've just bluffed you. Yeah, right. Okay, yeah. Is that not part of your personality, humility? Or like how do you describe your personality?

I always say it's better for other people to pass comments on that. I think that's right too. But in just short form, like how do you? Yeah, I think in the right situations, yes, I think it's important to be humble and be proud of what you've achieved and know if you're good or not. And if you're not, then do something about it and make yourself better. But it's almost if you've been decent, then people would be aware of that. So therefore, there's no real need to be big-headed, boastful about it.

And when you say decent, do you mean decent in your craft or decent as a man? All around, I think. All the way around. I think it should go hand in hand. What I don't like in people is that they change. You suddenly achieve success and those people then change for the worse because i was brought up and i was always told you meet the same people on the way up as you do on the way down so if you've been consistent as a person both when you're learning

and then when you become successful and then either in a little bit of failure or disappointment or you've retired if you stay pretty level-headed then i like people like that yeah knowing what you get exactly it's a it's a gift you're always going to fluctuate yeah but don't go from nought to 100 and then back down to nought just try and stay around that 50 mark so dad was an incredible cricketer as well yeah he'd say that if he was sat here, I might question it. But no. But he was coaching the national team when you were first selected.

Yeah, so he, and when I signed here. So he's played for Surrey in England at cricket and he was coach stroke manager of Surrey when I signed as a professional and also when I made my England debut. So people say that word nepotism is not bad. I don't understand the meaning of the words it doesn't affect me but he's had a massive influence you know people say who's had the

biggest influence on your career that's the question like people and events shape us when we're kids right and was it more people or events and i'm assuming it was your dad but i i don't i don't want to say no he played professional football as well. Oh, he did. Or professional soccer, as you may say in the States. So that's my first love. So given a choice of playing professional football or professional cricket, I'd have gone the football route. No kidding. And up until the age of 15, that's what I wanted to do.

But then, though I was decent at football, it was quite obvious I was going to be better at cricket. And I wouldn't swap anything I've achieved now for that. Can you go to that moment? Was there a moment in time that you made a decision? Yes. Because I want to ask, like, I don't want to load the question, but I think I'm just going to do it with you,

is that it's like letting go of a death, letting go of a dream. Yeah. Well, I'll tell you, so though i always wanted to play professional football because i that is this the real love i have a love of cricket but i have a real love of football as well um deep down i knew or thought i probably wouldn't be good enough but i still had that desire to drive me on and then i was associated with a football club called Wimbledon, AFC Wimbledon, as they are now. It's Wimbledon Football Club.

And I was in their youth section, youth teams. And one of the coaches, we'd finished a training session and he's given me a lift home. And he just said, look, what are you looking to do when you leave school? And I said, either play professional football or professional cricket. He just drove on a little bit. and then he just looked at me,

turned left and looked at me and just said, Alec, I understand you're a good cricketer, which is fine. So I thought, right, I've interpreted that as though I might not be a great footballer here, and that's where I really then set my sights on being a cricketer. So I worked at both sports sports but then though I continued to play football I was focused as a 15 16 year old to then make sure that if I made it at cricket great but if I didn't make it as a professional at cricket at least I knew I'd given it my all

in trying to be that do you remember what that felt like at that moment or how you responded to it? No, it was, he probably just confirmed perhaps what I had been thinking. Yeah, because whenever I played cricket, I'm going to sound arrogant or big-headed here, playing in age group cricket, I was one of the standout players in performances, et cetera. At a young age?

Yeah, yeah. And at football, I wasn't the standout head and shoulders above the rest. So that tells a story. And another time, again, through Dad, his way of educating, I've got an elder brother and a younger sister who enjoyed sport, didn't play it professionally, but were involved in and around this various sports dad took me to watch a game of football professional game of football uh there were 24 000 people in the ground anyway talking he just said look you'd love to be out there i said i would love to be out there one day

he said well just so you know there might be just one person in this ground of 24 000 people that may end up doing that and i evidently said as an eight-year-old i was eight at the time said well that would be me wow um now i didn't go on the plane in front of 24 000 people early on yeah okay so god you said three things i want to come back to and okay so let's stay with this and see if i can go to reverse order how did you know at that age at eight that that's something you wanted to do i have a brilliant relationship with my dad you know which i don't know if everyone can say that about their parents or whatever, but he had a massive influence on me. One is I wanted to follow in his footsteps.

I saw what was growing up. He was playing professional cricket here at the Oval. So you did have an intimate model that that could happen. It's not like it's some foreign land that those people over there become professionals. He was in your home. Yeah. And he was on a world stage.

Yeah, he finished playing for England by the time I was at an age where I was understanding what he was doing for a living. Okay. But I just loved coming up here, just being in and around that profession. I was in a fortunate position that as an 8-, 9-, 10-year-old or whatever, I was in a professional dressing room. Right. Most people never get that opportunity. What did you like about it? I've always loved sport.

That is the thing. I've loved being competitive. Evidently, it was obvious when I was 3, 4, 5, I was a competitive little so-and-so at that age, evidently. You were. But I was never going to be a scholar. I was never certainly not going to be a rocket scientist or anything like so. And I just had a real love, real passion for sport.

And it was never forced on me. You know, that's the good thing. A lot of people say, oh, you must have been pushed into it. We were never, to talk from a brother and sister, we were never pushed into anything. All Dad ever said to me was that if you want to play professional cricket or professional sport, I will support you all the way, but no way will I ever force you to go to a training session, force you to play in a game, force you to do this,

force you to do that, unless you want to. Because if I force you, you you'll do it but eventually you'll rebel and give it away so the reason you've taken this sport up or you enjoy is the enjoyment the day you you stop enjoying something is the day probably you want to stop doing it and is it a message that he gave you that he said over and over and over again or was there like this particular one experience that it was no it wouldn't just be a one-off it was it was a consistent theme in the house yeah but again it wasn't uh being forced into we said upstairs there you know he just said whatever you do make sure you do it the best of your ability and he actually said you know you

might want to be a dustman you might want to be a professional sportsman you might want to be a professional sportsman. You might want to be something else. But whatever you do, be the best you can possibly be. Not the best someone else can be, but the best you can be at that thing that you decide to go into. A lot of people will say that, right? And they'll say, I just want to be the best I can be. And I think it's really, really hard. It's an easy phrase to say.

And I think it's really really hard it's an easy phrase to say and i think it's really really hard and one of the reasons it's really hard at least for me to think about that is like what is that what is my best where where's the edge of my potential and so have you done that have you become the best you have you pushed on the edge on such a relentless way i so i've finished my career back in 2003 and i was a steamed career i mean like you yeah no so yeah so i will look back and say and they will cliche but i actually use them that leave nothing to chance where that is if you you prepared well if you've gone through every scenario that you believe may happen in real-time match match

situation then you won't have too many reasons to look back and say if only so have you taken out that if only or that but excuse and take out excuse culture i reckon you're on a pretty decent path okay um and that's what i did so you know you heard me say it before i wasn't the most talented ever i had talent but wasn't the most talented but i believe that i made the most use of the talent that I had. So I didn't waste an ounce of talent and my attention to detail and my dedication to my profession and my desire to be as good as I could be. And you never know how good you can be, even the greatest ever in any sport.

Could they have been better? I'm sure they could have done. But I can look back proud in what I've achieved because I know what I put myself through, but loved every minute of it as well. The ups, the downs, the wins or losses, the uncertainties at times. But I wouldn't swap it for anything. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentus. When it comes to high performance,

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and use the code findingmastery20 at checkout. Again, that's felixgray. You spell it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com and use the code findingmastery20 at felixgray.com for 20% off. What does work look like for you? So there's joy in work, right? You've got to love it. Do you love the work or do you love what the work brings you?

Yes, I get paid. So you therefore can call it work or a job but because it was you have to when you're playing sport or whatever it starts off as i don't know the term hobby but it's almost a hobby yeah but it was more than a hobby you know from a young age i just wanted to be good at what i was doing you know but i'll be like that with anything you know so if i'm giving this talking to you now i would hope that by the end of it i felt as though i've come across and given it my best shot in trying to either answer your questions i'm going to be honest in what i say to you um because why why we're going to sit here for half an hour or whatever and then at the end I'll say can we do it again or I wish we could have done that differently there you go so that's

how you maximize your time yeah is to be authentically you in as many moments as you possibly can now if some people say that's dull um that's boring yeah and I say to me it's not because I'm achieving you know while I'm achieving that's anything And I say, to me, it's not because I'm achieving. And while I'm achieving, that's anything but dull or boring to me because you're almost achieving things in every moment of your life, really, or you should be. When you sit back and go, I've achieved a lot, get in a little wooden box and go six foot underground. Right, yeah.

But what's the point of living if you're not going to try and achieve anymore and so this is what you call this moment achieving or do you call this moment is it closer to being authentically you or is it i'm going to be open and honest with you and as i said we only met and because we've spoken i've spoken easily to you i've been very open and how i've spoken to you because one is through the person who's introduced us i trust that's one of us yeah well there you are though he hasn't turned up yet dean um still hasn't turned up so one the profession you'll see through falseness i'd have thought yeah um and therefore why do i want to be false why do i want to be present wherever

you're going to be playing this or what type of person is going to be listening to this? What is the point of me coming across as something I'm not? That's a great question. Well, for most people, for me, for a long time of my life, it was so that the person across from me would find favor and they would say, yeah, you're all right. And then that became exhausting. Right. And just flat out like, well, then who am I? And then, so that, that led on the journey to say, okay, well, then if I got to, if I, if I can figure out who I want to be and who I, what that looks like and feels like, well, I should just do that as often as I freaking can. Exactly. So to me, there's a saying, you probably heard it. If you're a liar,

you have to have a great memory. Right. Okay? Whereas if you're authentic, you're just being honest. Yeah. Okay. So then how much growing up and having great influence from your dad and how much was that a spotlight or was that a shadow? Growing up, it will be, and hopefully I'm interpreting this right from your question it was a spotlight

in that so whenever I played age group cricket or was growing up as a youngster whatever I did because they

generally the people I was playing against or schools would know that I was the son of Mickey Stewart so though he would laugh about this, me and him,

because he's now father of Alec. So that's an achievement in itself. For him. I'm just saying that. Well, another thing, in test caps, between the two of us, we represented England 141 times. Wow. Of which he got eight of those caps.

So that's why I'm able to say i'll beat him 133 eight um but anyway i'm digressing there so about the spotlight so yes i would turn up and there would be an expectation because anyone who's a son of a successful sports person there's an expectation that that son or that young lad or daughter should be good no one has a divine right to be good my son has no interest in cricket has very little interest in the sport which is no worries at all he has other interests and he's happy in what he's doing whereas i had that interest at the in the sport that dad had worked in and played in and therefore i guess if i've answered the question correctly there was that spotlight on me yeah to from others expecting me to be good and how did you manage that because expectations from others can be really tricky yeah it, it is. But again, because sport back in the day, because I'm old, wasn't so high profile.

Certainly cricket wasn't so high profile. It wasn't. We didn't have the internet. Then we didn't have so much media intrusion or media coverage. He was just my dad. He was, you know, he's my dad. Yeah, he played cricket, but he's my dad. He was, you know, he's my dad. Yeah, he played cricket, but he's my dad. So though he educated me, well, in all walks of life,

but very much in the sporting world, he's just my dad. And he's also, you know, I said to people, again, others I'm sure will be able to say it, but he's my best mate too. So they can have the father-son relationship, but through working under him effectively when he was manager, I was a player, etc. There's that respect, but he's also a mate, which I think he's always a mate. I think he's pretty lucky too. How have you managed your relationship with your son? Are you doing the same that your dad passed on to you or have you tweaked it in some kind of way um no i've said to both my i've got a son and a daughter i've said to them both i said whatever you do

exactly message right the best that you can be it and then how do you tell them to do that no you just give them you know so it's like well i'm sorry like i want to say that more clearly like what is the how to become your very best and And maybe that's too big of a question, really. Yeah, I just think, say you're doing a piece of homework, okay? And one will have taken an hour over a piece of work and another takes five minutes. And after five minutes, that person is either wants to be out playing or out with their mates or on a bike or whatever.

All I say is, are you finished? Is it the best that you could possibly do? It's all right. I say, but is all right the best you can possibly do? And leave it at that, and then it's for them to learn. They can make that choice. I won't tell them. It's educating.

I'm showing what. And I say, well, that's fine. If that's five minutes, I'm going back in. I'm going to exaggerate here, but just saying they're colouring something in back in the day. And a couple of crayon marks had gone over the borderline. I said, that's the best you can do, is it? Just leave it out there.

Then they answer it themselves. They either start rubbing it out or they've left it. Next time, I'll have a look oh everything's within the area so i'm not it sounds like i'm running it's pretty intense what you're saying but i'm not but that's what i'm saying so it isn't but it's not like that it's probably people going what horrible daddy is um but it's not like that really intense yeah but it's almost i want – I hate seeing people waste talent and doing things for the sake of it. If you're going to do it, do it properly. Do it full on, yeah.

But do you – because is there not a better self-feeling in achievement if you've done it well? You know, it's – I don't know. You're cleaning the inside of your – you're cleaning the inside of you you're cleaning the outside of your car on a sunday morning and you're doing the inside and you're halfway through i can't do it so you've cleaned all the windows nicely bar one window which is smeared and still got fingerprints on it well you're happy with that or is it a job undone that's a really cool analogy yeah so that's all it is and there's some people don't worry because those windows will have fingerprints on it in in half an hour's time

when i take the family out or well why not get it immaculate and it's been immaculate and then yep there will be fingerprints on it but you can make it immaculate again okay so do you enjoy the cleaning of the car as much as you enjoy the looking at the cleanliness once you're done? The end product is the cleanliness. I don't think too many people say they enjoy doing it, but it's a process that you get towards achieving or accomplishing the outcome. So the outcome has greater enjoyment or reward? When it comes to washing a car, yeah. Right.

But I'm just saying in sport, I enjoy training. You do? Yeah. But give me match situation every time. So I'll give it my full in training. So I'll put my match head on in training. You do? Yeah. Okay. And what is that focus? Are we talking about like intense focus? Yeah. So I just want to be as best prepared I can be so that when I go into battle, I know I'm ready. How do you prepare yourself for practice then? So practice is the preparation for competition. Yeah.

And you're using intensity at practice? Intensity and situational. Okay. So I will put myself, even if it's not directed by the coach back in the day i would still put myself in in situations where i would try and replicate mentally uh the conditions i might find myself in in match condition so you would create a use your imagination to create a scenario yeah and then you would try to feel that thing that it would be as close to the thing that you're going to feel later whether it's some tension or tightness or whatever you try to amplify that in some way yeah yeah i mean there's that there is isn't it that easy thing of the again sayings and cliches

but you know that train hard play easy yeah which all it basically means that you've trained your whatever's off yeah right to be ready to to then go when it really matters and i imagine just kind of listening and getting to know you that you are internally driven. Like you want, you're like, no one has to tell you to work hard. Yeah. So you kind of put that on naturally. 100%. Are you a perfectionist?

Are you so detail? Oh, you're grinning. Are you so detail oriented that. People will tell you that. They would? Yeah. And you disagree? No, no.

But it was second nature. Okay. So I was renowned. I'm just looking up there where I've just slung a few things. So we're just now in a dressing room, right? Right, right. So above the locker area, you put your shoes. So I used to initial all my my shoes and it'd always be a

maclet so a lot of people would that's not all my stuff by the way that's right but it's not that's not a great actual how it should be um but no it was easy it's easier for me to put a pair of shoes together than it is to have one facing one way one the other so the lads in the dressing room would do that so they knew i wanted to be orderly and everything else um and they'd find it funny turning the shoe around the other way or putting one shoe on the shelf and that's because they'd then watch me and i'd come in okay yeah yeah i wouldn't react straight away and then they but they knew within half an hour the shoes would be back as they should be so it's whether that is um so you're not ocd ocCD or whatever they call it.

But for me, it's just a habit. If it's not straight, do you lose your mind? That's kind of what OCD is. I just think if you're going to make the effort, again, it comes back. If you're going out for an evening or going out or whatever, why do you want to go out looking scruffy? So I look at it. Is your tie straight or is your tie slightly off center

some people leave their tie slightly off center they feel it doesn't matter whereas i wouldn't did this help you become great at your craft or did it get in the way because it came natural to me that's an interesting yeah you said that twice now so it came natural well i believe it came you know so i'm telling you everything here, I shared a room growing up with my brother, bedroom. My half was immaculate and his was scruffy, but I just couldn't live like that. You know, my opening partner in cricket, my captain, Mark Lafton, fine player, but I couldn't be like him. He was scruffy, whereas I wasn't. We used to change in the dressing rooms next week,

so I'd have a fair bit. And I could tell you where my stuff is in my bag. I could tell you where my gloves were, where my boots were, whatever. Some would be there. Some would almost end up in my bag. Some would end up in the other part of the dressing room. But that was natural for him,

and he was comfortable with that. So there's no right way or wrong way. Okay, yeah. There is the right way for you, but not the right way for everyone else. And when you see scruffiness or messiness, when you see that, are you critical or judging them or are you observing? I find it strange. You find it strange.

So, yeah, observing and going, well, did you look in a mirror before you went out? Is that how you want to look um or whatever so you've turned up casually dressed but smart i would call that that's smart i like that too no but i don't know what you think right yeah yeah so i'd suggest you made an effort thoughtful yeah that's all it is yeah whereas other people you know you've turned up well i might tell everyone what you're wearing but and it all matches or whatever tones in others will just but i'll give you i can't understand some people might wear a nike sock on their left foot and an adidas sock on their other foot and that doesn't drive you nuts but you just don't i just i just don't understand it yeah it doesn't

i just think so on that on that are you, when you speak to yourself, I'm trying to sort out like the self-critical, your relationship with yourself, are you positive or are you critical? I introduce myself. You do what? I introduce myself to each day. Each day? How many versions are there in there?

Well, that's a problem, yeah. Yeah. So are you, do you speak to yourself in a critical way or positive way like good job alec or or is it more like what have you what are you doing uh positive it's it is positive well yeah because i want a positive outcome there you go i don't want to be go you've made that effort and that's all all that you come up with i love how so okay if we're not careful when we listen to pop psychology it'll say be positive be positive but what you've just done is you've anchored it because you want

something you want a positive outcome well then i need to i need to get ahead of that and speak positively to myself preparation there you go now that and that's so if you're going to have a be successful for a period of time i believe you have to prepare if you're going to be successful for a period of time, I believe you have to prepare. If you're always off the cuff, you'll have some success and then you'll have some horror days. And then if that's how people want to be, absolutely fine. But that's not my way. I would much rather have success for a period of time, which you know you've built up to, and then maintained and improved on okay so that arc is what you're looking for yeah yeah what is the hardest thing you've been through and that maybe

that's not it maybe again maybe that's too big but how do you i want to understand the challenges that we go so yeah so just saying in top level sport media plays a massive part is that the hardest stuff in life no i'm just so people say, do you read the papers? Do you read the internet? Right. A lot of sports people, certainly in England and what it's like in the States, will say, no, don't read it. Don't know what's going on.

So I don't always believe that. In fact, I very rarely believe that because one is if you've done well i reckon you'll be having to read if you've done badly you might not read it you'll sort of want to know but i'm guarantee a member of your family or your mate will ring you up or saying wherever you are have you seen what so-and-so has written or said about you okay so i went firsthand i'd read it i out of my way to read good and bad. Yep. So if it's good, yeah, that's nice.

But I know if I have a bad day, then they'll hammer me. But then when I got hammered in the media, criticized the media, I used that to spur me on because I would also want to try and prove people wrong. So then if at times you were close to being dropped from the side in the media's eyes and reporting then you go and put in a good performance you then go and give it go into the press conference because you're the player of the day or whatever and quite often someone would say you must be happy with the way you played today

i said yeah now it happy with my performance, but I'm also really looking forward to reading your piece. I'm going to point to a journalist in the room. I'm looking forward to reading your piece tomorrow because you're now going to have to contradict yourself on what you've written about me for the last week or so. You're never going to beat the media, but it was just me having a little... A little go at them.

It was almost saying, listen, you can have a go at me. That's fine because the newspapers always win because they're always right in hindsight. But I use some of your negativity to help drive me to find a positive outcome. Yeah. So is this a chip? Do you have a chip? Is that something like a chip on your shoulder? Is that how you?

No, I have no problems with criticism at all. But it's as long as it's constructive. So it doesn't go to your core? No, if it's constructive criticism, I'm going to raise my finger at you here. If it's constructive criticism, then take that on board and it's deserved constructive. It's easy to say you're useless.

Well, why is he useless? What can he do better? So it's cheap journalism, I think, when people, the public just say, you shouldn't do it. Okay, but explain more. Come up with solutions. So if someone has written, Alex Stewart shouldn't have been playing or should be dropped from the side because he hasn't done this, he hasn't done that, and there's another player who has done this and done that then that's a well thought through article in my opinion and an opinion where if it's just he shouldn't be playing because he hasn't scored any runs well that's fine but you can't leave me out

because you're only playing 10 so you've got to find a solution to bring someone in who's going to do a better job and that's just how i i am. And others let the media get on top of them. And I try and talk to my players now in the position I am. It's an opinion. That's all it is. And you might think it's massive because it's affecting you, but try and spin it and turn that perceived negativity into a positive so that when you do perform,

you know that bloke's going to have to, say, contradict himself. So you've won that little battle with him. Yeah, there you go. Okay. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day. And Cozy Earth has become a new part of that.

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and use the code finding mastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash finding mastery. So this is what I'm mapping in my head. Enjoyment, a relentless hard work and appreciation for the way that feels. So we're looking for that, right? For you, like to understand that that's what it looks like, as well as when it doesn't go your way, you adjust to things so you're not stuck because you've got this arc or this progressive model. And then the last part that you're just saying is that even though you're internally driven, when you read the media, you're okay with criticism. But when it doesn't seem thoughtful, you want to give it back to them in some kind of way.

And that's that competitiveness maybe. Competitive nature. So are you competing against people or are you competing with yourself? How do you orientate? Listen, when I'm out there playing or when I was out there, I wasn't thinking of any journalist who'd written. Yeah. What about the opposing team? Are you competing against them or are you competing with yourself?

Probably a combination of both. Okay. So one so one is yeah you're obviously competing against the opposition okay um because if you're not going to compete with them who are you going to compete with um and then you're my competing with myself i wouldn't say i'm challenging myself i'm not competing against myself which one takes up more space trying to be better than them if i challenge myself to be the best i can be out there i know that's having a an effect on the outcome okay and the outcome is therefore beating the opposition okay so you so that takes up more space me trying to be my best challenging and within cricket because again we spoke off air uh that cricket is a, we use baseball,

is probably the only two sports, and I suppose other people who are listening can come in and say otherwise, where it's very much an individual team sport. Whereas I say in other sports, rugby, football, whatever it may be. The ultimate, those are like the ultimate team games that you're interconnected.

They're team games, but you can almost, you can pick out the man of the match, but you can't always pick out the worst person. Whereas in baseball, certainly in cricket, because it's quite a stat-driven sport, you can see. It almost is success or failure or it's okay. So my big thing was, yeah, coming back to, if i do my job to the best of my ability i know that i'm having an impact on the outcome of the overall result which is why you're playing in the

first place okay okay i want to i want to try to understand what you're searching for most like what is the thing that's really inside you that you're the most hungry to understand what you're searching for most like what is the thing that's really inside you that you're the most hungry to understand or to do like what is that that essence part of you is to win i've a massive desire to win your face lights up when you say it because i what does winning mean yeah okay so let's. Well, winning, you can break it down. So winning, the ultimate is obviously winning the contest that you've been in against the opposition. It's also winning the challenges that have been thrown at you

either by the match situation, by the coach, by going back to the media, all those types of things. What you've addressed on the training field so going through a run of poor form you've had to at times break your game down to the basics going back to build it back up again and then when you've done that and that's pretty low you're talking about low points is losing games being dropped from the team about to be dropped from the team it's how you're going to bounce back and when you bounce back that's that's a win okay i love it i mean you're really simple in your thought there like it's simple you should just left it out i'm quite simple but no because sport generally is a

simple game that we all try and over complicate i think you know in cricket it's a bat in the ball like say baseball is a bat in the ball yet there are so many people who will make it hard it's hard enough as it is but why try and make it any harder than it really needs to be and that's both the actual skill levels then the mental side of it then the outside things and there's again yet another cliche you can the controller controllables you know which you know we've all heard but when you really think about that if you can do that i reckon you're on the right road because why why try and control something you've got no bearing on and you've got no chance of controlling at all why worry yourself with that be aware of it but don't worry about it brilliant how do you finish this thought

it all comes down to how would you finish that thought it all comes down to desire because with then that's and i again hope they'll answer it not correctly because there's probably no right or wrong answer but what you're trying to get at is if you have a desire to be successful, that desire can mean so much. Where does pressure come from? See, that's what we've spoken about again. Is it pressure or is it expectation? So pressure, when you talk about sport,

I think it comes from expectation, either from within, again, the controllable. So you might have a club where your chairman or chief exec or the directors say you have to win. And if you don't win, then you might be out of a job. Well, that's what happens. Yeah. So are you looking at that? Well, that's what happens. So are you looking at that? Well, that's their expectation.

And with expectation, I think that's a positive. If you treat that as pressure, then I think that can shrink you. And does it come from outside or inside or does it come? Well, it depends on, one, are you in in control of that so if you're part of a team so as a manager coach if you have prepared your team the best that you can do and you've been you've got a fully fit side and everything else and then they go out and don't perform for whatever reason you can only control that so much. And therefore, you may say pressure then grows because you're expecting your team to do well.

But then the control of control, because you can't control what the board members, the chairman, whatever, are thinking. They won't know all the ins and outs, but they're the ultimate decision makers. So that's why you've got to try. Again, I've always said you try and be that almost level-headed person. When you win, enjoy it. Whatever you do, always enjoy success. But

when you lose, analyze it, both good and bad, why you won, why you lost. But don't get too down. Because if you get too down, you're too far away then from what your level, your norm is. The optimal. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. All right. And then and then okay when i say this word love what comes up my wife yeah and then how important is love because we talk about joy hard work and i know that love is like no but i love i love achieving yeah if that's what you're talking about no i don't know i just want to hear how you bounce off that no i love i love achieving, if that's what you're talking about. No, I don't know. I just want to hear how you bounce off that word.

I love achieving. I love success. I love feeling as though I may have had an influence in the outcome, especially now the position I'm in. No longer a player, but perhaps have helped shape the way our team is moving forward. And though it's the players that always do it, win and lose, but if they win, they're the ones who need the biggest pats on the back but i love one is seeing people achieve things now and knowing what they've gone

through good and bad and then looking and loving the joy in their face when they've succeeded did you have a different mindset when you would catch and when you would is it called batting yeah batting and keeping wicket keeping yeah, yeah. They're two different skill sets. You did both. Yeah, I did. By choice, I'd have just batted. I was, but again, what the team, the England team needed was for me to keep wicket,

which is like being backstop at baseball. So I did both and enjoyed doing both. Is there a different mindset? No, they're just different skill sets. I wouldn't say there's a different mindset. So what's unique about your sport, though, is it goes for like six hours. Yeah, and five days. Five days.

Yeah. And would you be on the mound or not the mound, the pitch? Yeah, yeah. So when I'm keeping Wicket backstop, talking about – you call it backstop, don't you? Catcher. Catcher, make your point. So there's catcher. So you could be out there for all day

and sometimes two days. Then you could have a 10-minute break and then you go out and bat. Oh my goodness. And what's the level of intense concentration that you need? Well, you've got to learn when to concentrate, when to say switch on, switch off. You do, yeah. And that's something that you learn the more you play the more you do your job

how do you switch off it's well i say it's like switching a switch on it in effect is but you have to learn learn ways of doing that so you can't concentrate with six hours straight impossible right can't well you might tell me differently i don't think you can concentrate for an hour straight because your mind will just waver a little bit an undisciplined mind yeah an undisciplined mind would struggle so in cricket uh so the person runs up the bowl like the pitcher am i right or right to talk about baseball yeah so as the as the pitcher has the ball in his hand, as a batter, you've got to be switched on.

That's right. Yep. Then when you are stood on second base, as a batter on second base. That's right. When the ball is dead as such or not in play, you don't have to concentrate. You have to be aware, but you don't have to concentrate.

That's a nice little nuance. Aware and not concentrating yeah and so what are you aware of are you looking at stands are you looking at the dirt i might be drawn to the fielder next to me yeah uh i'll be aware that the bowler i the pitcher is about to okay start the process and then that's that's a trigger for you to be back on yeah okay and then how do you how do you become is it more focused or calm or confidence those three things like which are most important they're all important but which ones were most important to you say them again which calm calm confidence or concentration i'd almost say it's a really difficult... You've got to concentrate because I think without concentration,

error is creeping. Okay. And then would errors come in from lack of confidence or would errors creep in? No, I think it's through lack of concentration. Concentration. I believe that. Okay.

If you don't concentrate, then that's when your error is creeping. So fitness, the fitter you you are the longer you can concentrate and then if you do not concentrate yeah i'm pretty certain well so that's i would say concentration and then how would you practice or train concentration or how well again it goes back to replicating what we're saying repl replicating what you do. Doing something over and over again. On the training ground. Where you've got to be in it. Yeah.

Whatever that it is. Yeah. Brilliant. It's almost don't play at it, work at it. Say that again. Don't play at something, work at something. Okay. That's how you think about getting in.

So, and again, it's apologies because your knowledge or the knowledge of listeners of cricket may not be what it is. It's complicated. So when you go on the training ground, why do people go and train? Why do they practice? That's what I was trying to sort out. Do you train and practice just to train and practice? No. No.

Okay. So you train and practice to make sure you know when you go on that training ground what you're going on there for what are you trying to achieve and then when you walk off it have you achieved what you do you write that down or say it to yourself or is it more conceptual like what i'm working on is i didn't write it i wrote bits down i wasn't a big writer but you were really clear on your intent like this is what i'm going out to work on yeah yeah and then and at times i wouldn't come off the field training ground until i had achieved it through you know if i was first on and last off that

wasn't uncommon okay um and other times then it's not it's not always your day so but again if you committed and hadn't achieved what you went out to, you walk off, I didn't achieve it just because time has then kicked in. Next day, you want to try and achieve it. Okay. Last question. How do you think about mastery? The concept of mastery? Maybe a definition if you...

Of mastery? Yeah. Well, you never master it. It's almost easy, straightforward, without being rude, obvious answer. Because if you think you've mastered it, I guarantee you, you haven't. And that's why the challenge of continually wanting

to be the best you can be is so important. And once you lose that desire, I believe you're better off finding something else to do. If not, you're cheating yourself and you should never cheat yourself. I know I said the last question. If there's one habit that you can install in the next generation of kids, what would that habit or that thought or belief take it either way you want a habit of thought or belief well my mantra is to be the best you can possibly be and without hard work you don't achieve too much brilliant i mean alec yeah it feels like an honor that was really easy to be around oh listen i've, I've enjoyed it. Yeah.

We can thank Dean for introducing us. One of us can. I'm joking. Dean is brilliant. Well, he might be, but I can't tell him. He's turned up. So at £100 a minute, he's out of pocket. But no, honestly, you've made it easy.

I've enjoyed the topic. Yeah. Thank you for your time. Yeah, thank you for being a great guest and including me into your very special place here. 100%. It's been good to see you. Brilliant. Thank you. Thank you for being a great guest and including me into your very special place here. 100%. It's been good to see you. Brilliant. Thank you.

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