Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Erik Vendt, 3x USA Swimming Olympian

Episode Date: August 15, 2018

This week's conversation is with Erik Vendt - a 3x USA swimming Olympian.He won a silver medal at the 2000 Summer Olympics and the 2004 Summer Olympics in the 400-meter individual medley. At the 2008 Summer Olympics, Vendt won a gold medal as a member of the U.S. 4×200-meter freestyle relay team.This is a fantastic conversation that shines light on some of the core themes that have emerged from Finding Mastery.Erik grew up loving swimming - so much so that he pushed all his chips in - and was determined to become an Olympian.And while he did in fact achieve his "goal" there was a cost to it.When swimming was over he felt void of passion and purpose - something all too familiar for many athletes when they reach the end of their playing days.For anyone who's gone through difficult transitions in life - I'm sure you'll be able to relate and for those currently facing a transition in your life - this is definitely a conversation worth your time.Erik's quest to find a new passion and purpose in life ultimately led him to WHOOP.In his role as Director of Performance, Erik works predominantly with the special forces community, specifically within a program called PTOF (preservation of force and family) focused on building a more resilient and ready war fighter._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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stay present and engaged with my thinking and writing. If you wanna slow down, if you wanna work smarter, I highly encourage you to check them out. Visit remarkable.com to learn more and grab your paper pro today. I had an undying desire to reach the Olympics. It was for me, that was what it came down to is that I wanted to be an Olympian and I wanted to win a gold medal. And I was willing to do whatever it took to get there. And like I said, even from when I was a young, young kid, I found a lot of strength in pushing myself past the limits. So I think both of those combined gave me the ability to All right, welcome back or welcome to the Finding Mastery podcast. I'm Michael Gervais.

I'm still Michael Gervais. That hasn't changed. And by trade and training, I'm a sport and performance psychologist. But the whole idea behind these conversations, behind this podcast, is to learn from people who are on the path of mastery, to extend the learning for all of us about how the most extraordinary thinkers and doers, how they organize their life, how they think, how they condition their mind to better understand what they're searching for, how they make sense of things in life.

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slash finding mastery. Now this week's conversation is with Eric Vent, three-time Olympian. He's a swimmer and he's currently the director of performance for Whoop. He won a silver medal at the 2000 Summer Olympic Games and in 2004, he did the same thing, both in the 400 meter individual medley, two silvers across two Olympics. And then he came back in the 2008 games and Eric won a gold medal as a member of the U.S. 4x200 meter freestyle relay team. What a career. I mean, legitimate career. Three Olympics, three medals, unbelievable. And this is a fantastic conversation that shines light on many of the core themes that have emerged from the Finding Mastery conversations that we've been in. Now, a little context though, Eric grew up loving swimming

so much that he pushed all of his chips in. Literally, he was sitting at the table at a young age, not literally, figuratively, I guess I should say. He chipped in. He's like, before he even knew really what other options were in his life, he said, I want to become an Olympian. Now, that sounds extraordinary. Many of us did not have that experience. In this conversation, we get into the heart of that, the cost of that. And while he did in fact achieve his goal, the dark side and the costs can be enormous. And so Eric has the courage and the vulnerability and the insight to be able to talk about what that's like and what it was like when he felt that void of passion and purpose when swimming was finished. And that's familiar to many athletes when they reach the end of their playing days.

And for many of us who haven't figured out exactly what we want to do with our lives, that's where we can relate to this story as well. So pro athletes like have this lifetime before they're even 30 and they go through all four seasons of a human's life. And many of us are just kind of hitting our stride professionally in our 30s and 40s. And while they found their purpose early in life, many of us haven't done that even in mid stride. So this is about transitions. This is about purpose and meeting. This is about facing down the difficult challenges in life and how, how to do them, how he did them. So for anyone who's gone through transitions in life, I'm sure you're going to be able to relate to this.

And if you're currently facing that transition, you're definitely going to want to stay connected to this conversation. Get a pen out. Take some notes for sure. Eric's quest to find a new passion and purpose eventually led him to Whoop. And as the director of performance, he worked predominantly with special forces communities, specifically within a program called PTOF, Preservation of Force and Family. And it's focused on building a more resilient and ready warfighter. And the idea is to improve their mental health, their spiritual framework and

human performance. And that's where Whoop comes in. And I think most of you are aware that we have a partnership with Whoop. I love their product. So I just want to share again, my experience with Whoop has been great. I'm training for an event right now. And, you know, it's been this radical reminder and device to hold me accountable to the right equation between stress and strain and recovery. And I've been using it for months now. And it really is showing me how my body's responding to stress. Whether it's my diet or sleep or training or just general stress or purposeful stress that I'm putting myself under, it does break it down into a very personalized

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thinkers and doers organize their life and their thoughts. And we'd love the support to keep this rolling. And we're only endorsing products that we think are equally as extraordinary as the people on this podcast. So get with it. That's what I want to encourage you to do. Get with it. All that being said, they have a great program that they're rolling out for us. Your first month is now free when you sign up at whoop.com forward slash finding mastery and whoop is W H O O P. And, but you got to use the code finding mastery, all one word, all caps. Again, that's whoop.com forward slash FINDINGMASTERY and use the code FINDINGMASTERY.

And with that, let's jump right into this conversation with Eric Vent. Eric, how are you? I'm doing well. How are you? Thanks for spending the time for this conversation. Seriously, congratulations on your body work. You've had an incredible experience as an athlete and now transitioning into a businessman. Thank you. I appreciate that. It's been a path, that's for sure. I think most athletes that transition from the highest levels of their sport into the regular world probably go through a lot of the trials and tribulations that I went through. But I feel very lucky to have found a path that I'm passionate

about and one that suits my strengths very well. Okay. So walk us through the early phases for context, like the early phases of your life. What was it like growing up? What was the family dynamics? What were some of the storylines that you experienced as a youngster growing up? Walk us through the early days to give context to what you've been able to do later in life. Yeah, absolutely. When I was a kid, I was born here in Boston. But at a very early age, in infancy, me and my family went out to Saudi Arabia. My dad was working for the government at the time, Department of Defense.

And that's really where I learned how to swim. We lived in a Western compound. One of the few things to do there in the middle of the desert was swim because we had a pool. And I was a little bit of a hell raiser. I was always running around. My mom had a really hard time keeping track of me. And a couple of times I fell into the pool. And so for one of these water safety reasons, she just decided it's best to probably get these kids to learn how to swim. Both me and my sister really took to water. And both me and my sister were very competitive growing up. She was fantastic in the water as well. She got a scholarship to Notre Dame.

And I was really always kind of chasing her. She was the one that was posting up some fantastic times at a really young age. I looked up to her and she had a credible amount of talent as well. She just unfortunately fell victim to quite a few injuries growing up and wasn't able to sustain. Whereas I felt I got really lucky in that regard. But that was really the beginning stages of really of my career was out in Saudi Arabia. When I was really young, at seven years old, we, back to the Boston area. And I joined a local club team and kept on swimming. But truth be told, I was doing everything else an American kid would be doing, right? I mean, I was playing soccer, I was playing baseball, I was playing football, and I was swimming and I was doing everything. But baseball and swimming is really what it came

down to. And at a very young age, I knew I wanted to do something, something incredibly well, I want to do something and I wanted to excel at it. And I knew that in order for me to do that, I was going to have to dedicate myself to that sport year round. And so I chose I chose swimming, much to the chagrin of my father, who was a baseball player growing up, and me and him had a lot of great bonding experiences playing baseball. He trained me in it. And leading up to every season, we had a lot of interaction doing it. But swimming wasn't something that my parents did. They didn't really know how to swim that well, to be perfectly honest. So when I chose it, it was one of those things that it was going to be my path. And my parents supported me fully. And I look back and I think to myself, wow, it's pretty amazing to see the way they actually supported myself and my sister.

I mean, waking up early in the morning, taking us to practice, the life of a swimming parent is tough. So tough that if I ever have kids, I'm not sure if I'm ever going to put them in the pool, because it really is that challenging and that much of a commitment on the parents' behalf. But that's kind of where it started for me. To take a couple steps back, when I was in Saudi Arabia, I learned pretty quickly that I had something that most kids didn't have, and that was a competitive spirit. My first race ever, actually, it was a 25-yard breaststroke. I wanted to win incredibly badly, not just because I wanted to win,

but because there was a handful of candy associated with that winning of the heat. I remember I was losing the race, and I reached under the lane line and I grabbed onto the kid's suit and I ripped his suit down to his ankles and I pulled back into my lane and I kept on swimming and I thought I won the race. Obviously I got disqualified, but I think I learned really quickly that I had something inside me that most other kids didn't. And I was able to channel that into a work ethic that I knew that most other people didn't have. I wasn't the biggest kid. I wasn't the strongest kid. And I never really considered myself, honestly, to have that much talent. But the talent that I did have was an ability to push myself a little bit farther, a little bit longer than most people would. And a lot of people look at swimming and they look at it as a very boring

sport that you have this black line uh for five hours a day and that black line and that that solidarity and looking at that and being alone causes a lot of people to leave the sport for me that's where i found a lot of my strength was staring at that black line five hours a day and it's kind of hard to you know type of, that type of, that, that, that, that strength that I felt by staring at it, but it was something that became home to me. And, uh, and I love that black line. And I think that's one of the strengths that I had that separated me from a lot of the other guys that I was competing against was for me, pushing myself farther, longer, harder,'t necessarily that big of a big deal because

I kind of loved it. I like that solo nature of it. Okay. All right. There's a lot there. This is really good. Okay. So let's see if we can work in some reverse order. One is how do you deal when it gets difficult? You're saying, I love it. I love the pull. I love the way it feels to stare at a black line. The longer, the further, the better it is for me. But how do you do that? How do you, when it obviously gets hard for you. So what do you do internally when it gets hard?

You know, it was a, one thing. So I talked about swimming and I talked about baseball and how it came down to those two sports. The reason why it was a no brainer for me to choose swimming was because of what swimming provided me on a day in, day out basis. I love the feeling of getting out of the pool every day, exhausted emotionally, physically, mentally exhausted. And it was a challenge for me every single day to say, all right, how far can you push yourself? Because, you know, the repeats of the repeats,

the times that you have to go or the times you have to go, but how far you push yourself is ultimately up to you. And I just found a lot of strength and an accomplishment in pushing yourself past the point of fatigue every single day. And it's something I absolutely loved. And I loved it ever since I was a kid. Since I was 10, 11, 12 years old, it's something that I loved. So when I compared that to baseball, you know, I didn't really have the opportunity to do that in baseball. You know, obviously baseball provided a lot of other things that swimming didn't.

You know, interaction with teammates, a team sport in baseball. You know, obviously baseball provided a lot of other things that swimming didn't, you know, interaction with teammates, a team sport in general, but it didn't, it didn't allow me to push myself past the limits that I knew were possible. And that's what I loved about swimming. It was just how far can I push myself today? What can I do today that I don't think is possible? And that is really where it started. And that and that to me is is everything in my career honestly is is that i wanted to jump in the pool every single day i wanted to challenge myself and i wanted to see what was possible and when you say i wanted to see what was possible at what age did you start thinking that way when i was 11 years old i um um is when i first started thinking that i it was the 92 olympics and I was listening to it on the radio.

That gives you a sense of how long ago that was. I remember thinking to myself, I want to go there someday, and I want to compete in the Olympics. And my coach at the time told me, he's like, well, yeah, Eric, you have a pretty good shot because the events that you like to do are the longer events.

And the longer events, most Americans, they don't want to train for that anymore. And that's where the light bulb went off. And I said, okay, wow, I like training hard for these things. I like swimming the longer races. If nobody else in America wants to do that, then great. And that's really where it began. And I was lucky enough to have the same coach, Josh Stern, really over the course of my late childhood and through my high school. And he challenged me every single day to do things that I didn't think were possible. And we did a lot of amazing things that were along those lines that gave me a lot of confidence mentally. I always knew, hey, look, I'm five foot nothing at the time, best case scenario, I might be able to reach six foot, but I'm going to be racing guys that are

six, four plus six, five, six, six. I knew that I knew I was never going to reach that height. And I knew that I had to find that. I knew, I knew I had to make up that ground somewhere else. And it was going to be day in, day out in the training. How would he set up the framework or the environment for you to be successful with the things that you didn't think you could be successful with, right? The impossible, so to speak. What did he do to set up that environment? Well, first and foremost, we had a really good core group of guys and these guys are still my best friends to this day. I mean, we grew up and we all,, breathed, and slept swimming.

And that was the core group of our team. And one of the major things that he did was instill a mindset, first and foremost, in us that we were going to train harder than everybody else. And two, it wasn't just going to be we think we're training harder. Well, we actually are. And even though we had to travel a long distance to get there day in, day out, we were going to make up that time that we couldn't get during the week on Saturdays. And so Saturdays throughout high school, we had five hour practices and we were swimming for five

hours in the pool on Saturdays from nine to two, every single Saturday. And I remember one Saturday or Friday night, actually, he calls me up and he says hey Eric I want you coming in an hour early for Saturday morning workout tomorrow I was like you want me coming in an hour early for a five-hour workout he's like yeah precisely so I did and and he gave me a set that um the hardest set that I've ever done in my life it was 31,000 and those 31,000 were done on a on a repeat that was challenging. And I was supposed to go, you know, below 10 minutes on each one. And which is, uh, you know, for one, two, three, four, five, isn't really that hard for 10 isn't even that hard. But once you get up to

the high teens and low twenties, it becomes incredibly challenging. And, you know, that's 30,000 yards in one day. And I failed. But even though I failed physically, mentally, I gained a lot. And that set is actually to this day, if I meet somebody in the sport of swimming, they always ask me about that set. And the reason why we did that set was because I'm not going to instill fear by my mere physical presence. People are going to look at me and probably think the opposite. But if they know that I was willing to do things like that day in and day out in practice, then they knew I was a force to be reckoned with.

And so we wanted to build this persona that I was willing and able to do anything day in and day out, that I was going to be the guy that outworked you. And by doing that, I was going to be the guy that won at the end of the season. And that was kind of the idea behind, behind that set and behind the whole approach to training that we took. Okay. What were you searching for? Like what was underneath this relentless, almost crazy endurance, um, approach that you had? What was underneath of it? Mentally or physiologically? No, mentally. Yeah, mentally first.

Yeah, I think about that all the time, actually. And I'm not entirely sure. I had an undying desire to reach the Olympics. For me, that was what it came down to, is that I wanted to be an Olympian and I wanted to win a gold medal. And I was willing to do whatever it took to get there. And like I said, even from when I was a young kid, I found a lot of strength in pushing myself past the limits. So I think both of those combined gave me the ability to kind of push day in and day out. Where did it come from that you wanted to be an Olympian and to medal in the Olympics? Where did that come from?

It came internally. I mean, it's just always something I wanted to do. And even to this day, I can't imagine doing something unless I'm excelling at it. And if I'm not, then I have a really hard time with it. And I'm cognizant enough and I'm aware enough and I'm mature enough now to know that that's not necessarily a strength. At the time, given the context, given the situation, that was absolutely what I needed to excel at the sport of swimming. That mindset isn't necessarily the correct mindset once you get later in life. However, that's exactly what I needed in order to succeed at swimming.

Who did you want to show the medal to the most? You know, it's not even necessarily someone. It was what fueled me when I was a kid. And it gave me a lot of fuel. I'm not going to lie. Were the people who doubted me or when I when I had the courage to say that I wanted to be an Olympian when I was 11 or 12 years old and they would laugh at me, those are the people that I wanted to show. And I don't really blame them for laughing at me, right? I mean I was barely cracking five feet at the time and it felt like I was crushing it in terms of winning a bunch of New England championships where I grew up. I just wanted to show everybody who ever doubted me that I could do it. And I almost built up this, you know, this mentality, if it's me against the world, there was only a few people that believed in me. It was myself, my family, my coach, and that core group of friends

that, that I spoke about earlier. And so for me, it was, that's who I wanted to show it to almost in a spiteful way. Yeah. Well, it sounds like you were flirting and dancing with anger, basically. You're pissed at people that didn't believe in you. You put a big chip on your shoulder and you did things that no one else would do to be able to show that one day, to prove to them one day. But that question I asked is a little bit of a trap. Who did you want to show it to? And I loved how you answered it.

Now I'm also wondering if, let's say that you didn't get a medal and let's say that you had the knowing of what it takes to push boundaries and you had the experience of what it's like to be in the trenches. Okay. So you can't buy the second two, the knowing and the experience. You can't buy the second two the knowing and the experience you can't buy those you can't buy a medal really but you can have lots of i don't know external rewards or fancy things that you can adore yourself with that you know look wonderful but but the olympic medal is something that's pretty different at this stage in your life, which one would you choose?

And there's no right or wrong answer, right? Like what is your answer in that? Well, I guess it's hard because I feel like, I guess it's hard for me to answer that question because I, I do know what it's like to be in the trenches, but I also have the Olympic medal to come along with it. And so for me, and I'm not trying to cop out, but I would say both, you know, I love having the, the reason why I love the sport of swimming so much. And, and, and, and this can be for, for any athlete in any sport that reaches the pinnacle and actually has something tangible that they can hold onto that for me, that medal was a symbol of the culmination of a lifetime of work that I put

together at that time at a very young age that I could look at and I could hold in my hand and I could say wow this is what came of utter dedication and an incredible amount of hard work and I get goosebumps when I think of it so for me I feel so lucky to have something like that, where, look, I know something, I know that really, the sky is the limit. If you put your heart and your soul and you utter and just complete amount of drive into achieving that goal, I know that I can achieve it. And so for me, there's a lot of confidence in that. And there's a lot of strength in that. And that's why I love sport because it's black and white in that, in that, in that regard that, you know, either you do it or you don't. And I was lucky enough to do it. And, and because I was, I now have something tangible that, that symbolizes the,

the lifetime of work that I put in building up to that. And then, yeah, really cool. I mean, that's the, yeah, let's have it all. Why not? That's the answer you said, right the future is there and I'm seeing him and my mother live it, it's, you know, I understand why he did exactly what he did. He was a, he was a man with a plan. He stuck to it. And, you know, now he's got his government pension, he's got his retirement and, you know, they're living a very good life. You know, growing up, it wasn't always like that in the sense that, you know, money was tight in a lot of times. And, um, but my mom and my dad, they, they sacrificed together. And with the idea that, you know, they were going to save money for college for, for myself and my sister, we gave them the gift back of getting scholarships. And, you know, I think that was one of the things I felt best about through this whole process was it's like, Hey, you know, I, you And, you know, I think that was one of the things I felt best about this whole process

was it's like, hey, you know, you get you sacrifice a lot for me. And now it's you don't have to worry about college, you know, but to see the way they're living now in retirement is fantastic. And so my dad, you know, like I said, looking in hindsight, he very much had a plan and he stuck to it. And that plan is is working in, you know, is working great. Now, my mom was always working as well, really, from when we got back from Saudi Arabia on, she she was working. And, you know, so I had two working, two working parents, my sister was a little bit older. And she was the one who kind of, you know, took after me after school. And, you know, by by hell or high water, they figured out a way to get us to practice, whether it be, you know, through some neighbors in the neighboring town that would bring

us in that were also on the same club team, or they would do it and they would alternate days, but they always figured out a way. And so that was kind of the dynamic growing up. What did you miss? What was the cost of your pursuit of your high work ethic of your sacrifice of time? I missed making mistakes when I was younger and learning from those. And, you know, as a result, I made mistakes growing up a little bit later in life that most kids made when they were younger. I lived a very sheltered life, not by my parents. I mean, even growing up, I would get home from these five-hour practices, and my parents would be like,

Hey, Eric, a lot of kids your age are going out and having fun. That was in high school, right? I mean, I was, well, no, I'm going to bed. I had a hard practice. I'm going to watch a movie. And that was really my life. And it revolved around that. And my parents weren't pushing that.

I was the one kind of setting in those rigid lifestyle choices. And so once I kind of took myself out of the sport and all of a sudden that purpose, that path that was so straight and so narrow that kept me along and kept me true and honest, once that was gone, well, then, then that's when I made my mistakes. And so I look back and I, and I think that that was one of the things that I missed out on, you know, is, was making those mistakes at a young age and learning from them and growing from them. And, um, like every other normal kid, but instead I made them as an adult and, you know, that's not the good time to make them, you know, but unfortunately that that's life. Okay. So what, what kind of mistakes are we talking about? Well, you know, I unfortunately that that's life. Okay. So what, what kind of mistakes are we talking about? Well, you know, I mean, um, I haven't really spoken about this publicly, but you know, when I get out of the sport of swimming and I took those blinders off,

it was a really rough time because I lost my, my passion. I lost my compass. Um, I lost my purpose. And most importantly, during my last few years of swimming, I didn't necessarily give myself much chance because I didn't even think about, even though I knew the end was coming, I didn't think about what was next on the horizon. And so every decision I made instantly out of swimming was very naive. It was very reactionary and it was very quick. And once I took myself off that narrow path, I fell into, um, I fell into traps of drugs and alcohol and, and I paid the price for that. And it was a rocky road for a while. I'm a sober man today because of it. And I'm in recovery because of it. And like I said, it's not something I've

ever spoken about publicly, but it's, um, it's something that I feel I'm not the only one that's an athlete that goes through these types of struggles once they leave their sport. And so I think it's important for me to kind of put myself out there on a limb and speak about it. Yeah, you're not alone. That's for sure. Think the courage that you have and the courage of other men and women to talk about the darker side and the challenging side and the, that experience of not knowing who I am, and being lost in the pursuit. And then that pursuit being gone is really challenging. And so did you find yourself more on the anxious side or more the depression side? How dark did it get for you? I'm not asking for details, but how bad was bad?

You say, no, it wasn't that. I was just covering it up with alcohol and other drugs. I was just chasing being sick and tired, and I got tired of that. I think it was a combination of all the above. I mean, I think I realized for the first time in my life that, wow, you actually are a pretty anxious person, you know, and I, and actually, uh, Nicole, a mutual friend of ours, I think we, one of the things she said to me last time I saw her was that I think most athletes at a very high level are very anxious people and they can channel that pretty easily when they're training, when they pull themselves out of the sport, they realize, wow, I'm incredibly anxious. They don't really know

necessarily how to deal with it. And that certainly rang true with me. And that was one. I think the second was a little bit of depression because for the first time in my life, I lost my compass. I lost my path and I didn't know what my purpose was. And that right there, after having such a strong purpose to get you out of bed each morning, not having that, that definitely brings you into a dark spot. There's no doubt about it. But then there's a third component, which you mentioned, which is you're chasing that thrill, that excitement. And that was something that, to this day, the best drug I've ever done was standing at the blocks, the Olympics without a doubt, you know, and that, that, that, that, that feeling right before you jump into the water, that knowing that everything that you've done over these past four

years or your entire life leading up to that one moment in time rests on this race is an incredible feeling that I will never be able to replicate. And it's one that I, I think about a lot and it's one, it's a, it's a, it's a high that you certainly chase when you don't really know how to find it again. So I think it was a combination of all three of those. And then to add, to add kind of fuel to this fire, I chose a path that in career wise, that wasn't a path for me, right? It was against the strengths. It was against the grain of my strengths. I chose it naively. I chose it quickly. It was in the world of finance. I got a job at a hedge fund. And, you know, I chose my major at school because it didn't have math and it didn't have science. And here I was all of a sudden trading in a very volatile

market. And because I'm a stubborn person that wants to see things through, I stayed in that career field for roughly four years. And through the course of that, there was ups and there was downs. But that was my path out of the sport, was figuring out exactly what I didn't want to do and doing it in a very, very challenging way. Okay. So that underlying anxiety fueled you and it was fine while you're inside the sport, but then became crazy making when you were done with the sport. Let's go back into the sport for a minute. Every sport has that dominant athlete. For a long time, it was Tiger Woods in golf and in basketball, Michael Jordan or Kobe Bryant or LeBron James, right? There's that athlete. And you were in the same era as Michael Phelps. What was that like? Is he going to go down as the

most dominant swimmer ever? Oh, without a doubt. I mean, in my opinion, I, I, uh, I personally think he's, he's top three greatest athletes of all time. And, you know, I, I look at a fan, I personally think he's top three greatest athletes of all time. I look at a great athlete not just as one who can put up these ridiculous numbers or these ridiculous times, but one that gets it done when it matters. One that has the championships, one that has the rings, one that has the gold medals. And I don't think I've ever met anybody or seen anybody that can perform at the highest level as good as Michael can. And we've all seen it, right? If there's a close race, Michael's winning it. I think what he did in 2008 is the greatest athletic, because I know what it takes at that level. So I'm a little bit biased, of course, but I think that's the greatest athletic achievement in history. To know that guy

swam, I think, 27 races over the course of eight days against the world's best. And he won eight gold medals. And to me, that is absolutely unbelievable, because I know how hard it is and what happens to my body after one of those races at that level and how long it takes for my body to recover. He was able to recover within 15 minutes, 10 minutes, five minutes sometimes, get back on the blocks and win a gold medal. So in my opinion, he's the greatest athlete of all time to be straight up. And I won my silver medal behind Michael Phelps in 2004. And people always look at me and say, man, imagine if Michael wasn't there. It's like, man, I feel sorry that you had to race against Michael. I don't look at it like that. I look at it as that's exactly who I would want to race against. I would want to race against him.

And I'm thankful that I get to race in the Michael Phelps era. I'm thankful that I get to train with him. I'm thankful that I get to be a part of history in 2008. And I look at myself as, you know, somebody who doesn't have that type of talent, but you know what? I'm not afraid to race a guy who does. And even though I wasn't able to do it, we were able to go one, two as an, as a country. And that's something that, you know, I'll always hold true. And I look at that picture of me and Michael after going one, two in 2004, that's a, it's a great memory for me. And I know it's a good memory for him too. You know, and out of all the ones he's won, I know that's one of the more memorable ones. And we speak about it quite often. When you're on the blocks and you're competing, you look to the left or right. I can't remember

where you guys were stacked on the lanes and you're looking at the greatest of all time. What is your mindset at that point? So right before the race, you're not really thinking about anything. You're just thinking about what, what can you do within your own, within your own lane? I visualized that 400 IM, um, so many different times, so many different ways that there really wasn't anything that could have happened that wasn't already played out a hundred times in my head. I was in that race specifically in 2004. I was in lane one. He was in lane four. I had a terrible, terrible morning swim. I clearly missed my taper. My lactate, which they take after each race, USA Swimming does, was the highest it's ever been by a multitude. I'm talking like four or five times higher than

it's ever been in a prelim race. And I'm thinking to myself, wow. And I wasn't even sure if I was going to make finals. I made finals by a hundredth of a second in a 400 IM and which is unheard of. And so really what I did from that morning race until that night race was convince myself that, that I could do it. And I just looked at the split sheets. I looked at what was going on. And I was just going to say, hey, look, you know, one thing I know that I've always been really good at is race. And even though I wasn't in a very good lane to race, I was out there in the very end.

I was going to race this one. You talked to a lot of people that were in the stands for that. And if you look at that video, it's me looking, you know, which is they teach you at a very young age not to look. But I was looking every single stroke in my breaststroke, because I had to get myself back in that race. And that's exactly what brought me back in. I mean, Michael was so far ahead that at that point, it was all right, who can I catch? And, you know, it was pretty much the rest of the world is Hungarian kid and Italian kid. And I was able to touch them out at the very end.

So you did everything the books told you not to do. All the mentors told you not to do and you did it anyway. But you had this model though that you were able to legitimately say to yourself, I'm a racer, which is like, I'm a gamer. I get things done and I'm going to do whatever it takes. I'm going to scrap. I know myself. I know my talent.

But you were able to say that to yourself to put you in the right frame of mind because literally your body was exhausted. Yeah. It was breaking down with the lactates. Okay. Okay. So that's, that's why when we talk about self-talk, it's got to be credible. You didn't just make it up and you weren't saying something to yourself that you fundamentally didn't believe could happen based on what you believe or who you believed you were. Precisely. And that, and that brings me back to doing those 31,000s, building that mindset that there wasn't anything I couldn't do. And, and I, and honestly, that, that, that set, that 31,000 set that I did physically, that put me under and that put me under literally like

probably the rest of the season. I mean, I had a very bad season that year, but what it did was is it created a mindset that there wasn't anything I couldn't do. And that mindset is what helped me. Actually, it is what got me on the podium in 2004. It wasn't, it wasn't that I hit my tape. It wasn't that I was swimming extremely well. It was a mindset that, that self-talk, but I believed in myself because that, that mindset was so strong and that belief in myself was so strong. Okay. It was credible. Basically it was credible. Okay. So, so let me ask you like more in the weeds question, one more in the weeds, and then I want to talk about imagery and then I want to go to transitions in a minute. Okay. So those three things hopefully in order. So in the weeds here

is that I'm training for a project that I'm doing. I'm going to stand up paddle from Catalina Island, which I know you know where that is, to Redondo Beach. It's somewhere between, I don't know, 24 and 30 some miles, depending on currents in the Pacific Ocean. So I've done about half that distance in my training that I'm training for right now. And everyone's saying that, no, you would never train for stand-up paddling the full distance, right? That's ridiculous. That's not how you do it. So there's going to be some uncharted territory for me. There's going to be some deep waters, some thin herd.

There's going to be a place where I don't know if I can do it. And I'll be tired and exhausted. And this is the first endurance project I've ever done in my life. Everything else has been like high adrenaline. And this is the exact opposite system that I'm trying to understand better. So what guidance could you give me in those moments where I'm in deep waters, everything about me is firing, lactic thresholds are screaming, and I've still got another two hours to go. I think it's going to be about somewhere between seven and eight hours is how long it'll take. One thing that always worked for me, I like the power of thought in a lot of different ways.

But I visualize not just the good, but the bad. And when I visualize the bad, I also want to feel what I'm feeling because of that, right? So when I was doing those 31,000s and I'd never done it before and I'm hitting 17, 18, and I'm like, man, I barely just crossed the threshold of halfway. And everything inside of me was telling me to stop because I'm thinking to myself, nobody has done this before. Why am I continuing to go? This is good enough. I just thought to myself how bad I would feel and how quickly I would feel good physically after stopping. And so for me, I visualize the bad and the feelings I get because of it. So I don't know if that is helpful for you, but just think if,

you know, halfway through when you still have two hours to go and you have that choice to get on a boat and head back or to keep on slogging through it and feeling the pain and just understanding that two hours in the grand scheme of things is absolutely nothing. And the feeling that you're going to get by completing it is going to be immensely positive versus stopping and hopping on a boat and heading back. And that feeling that you have initially, when you get on the boat, you're probably going to feel a little bit of relief and your body's going to relax. And then about five minutes into that boat ride, that feeling that you're going to get because you stopped, I think is enough for me to continue going. Really cool. So that's setting up a framework

prior to even getting in the water. Absolutely. Okay. And then, all right. And then when I'm actually in that, you're suggesting that just be, be aware of that framework that, okay, I could pull onto the side of the boat and get some relief. But after a few minutes, that relief is going to be torturous because I'll never know. Exactly. Okay. So you're saying like mentally torture yourself so that you don't actually experience the torture. Okay. Interesting model, Eric.

Okay, good. All right. No, I'm with you. No, there's actually some science that supports it, you know, and so I'm intrigued by that for sure. I haven't thought about it that way yet. Okay. Shifting gears is how do you teach imagery to kids? And then how do you teach it? Do you teach it any differently to advanced performers? You know, that's a really good question. And so for me, I've never really taught imagery. What I've said is I've always visualized my races and I've always encouraged kids to do it. I've always been lucky enough that I've been able to visualize my races as crystal clear at 11 as I was heading into my first Olympic trials and anything post. But the power of imagery is, as you know, is incredibly real. The more you picture something,

the more likely it is to manifest into reality. And so for me, picturing what I wanted to do over and over and over again, I didn't know that at the time. All I knew was that it did something inside of me. It was almost like I was doing it. And that's, to me as a young kid, I just wanted to do it over and over again. So literally every night I went to bed, I was picturing myself doing something that no American had ever done in the 1500 from when I was 11 years old, all the way up until 19 when I actually did it. So for eight years I was picturing this and the reason why I did it at the beginning was because it made me feel incredibly good.

The reason why I did it later in the build up too was because I knew how important it actually was and how close I was to obtaining it. So for me, again, I haven't taught it, but what I say is that I encourage kids to visualize their races and not just visualize it once or twice or 10 times, but to visualize it hundreds of times in, in, in, in a variety of different fashions. So if it's a 400, I am, sometimes your butterfly is good. Sometimes your back's great. Sometimes your breast sucks. Sometimes you're free. Sometimes your back half in it. Sometimes your front half in it, but you're going to, you're going to do this 400. I am thousands of times over by the time you actually do it. So for me, that's that that's

how I overlay or I pass along what I've done to these kids. And maybe I should be doing it differently. But that's, that's kind of how I go about it. Yeah, cool. Do you see it in color? I do. And I don't see it in first person. Like I'm not breathing and I'm not seeing the water. I'm actually watching from the stands. And that's how I've always visualized it. It's been easier for me to visualize that way. And then can you feel it? I can. Absolutely. Can you hear it? Yes.

Can you smell? Yep. Because the chlorine smell is one of these, yeah, I can smell it. And then do you ever see like pre-performance stuff or do you see in the belly of it or the starts or do you go through different phases? And how much time do you spend at each phase? I do a lot of different parts. Where I spend a lot of time is in the build-up too. So in the ready room, walking out, seeing the crowd, hearing the crowd, hearing the crowd get silent before the start and then the dive in.

And then I spent a lot of time at the front half and then I spent a lot of time at the back half. And specifically, I spent as much time as I spent up front in the build up to the race, I spend in that last part and looking up at the clock at the scoreboard and seeing the time that I went because that right there is, is everything is okay. All this stuff, this is the race, but now what am I actually going? And I might see a lot of different times up there. They're all something pretty amazing that I think would be incredible to achieve, but that's really where I'm spending most of my time is on the front half and then on the back half, but specifically on the front half, hearing the crowd, seeing the crowd, understanding who's in the race and that feeling right before,

because at the Olympics, what I've noticed is that where people can kind of fall short is not channeling that energy correctly. So for me, it was about harnessing all those different emotions of fear, anxiety, stress, excitement, all these different things, good and bad, that are just going, just channeling through inside of you. And oftentimes it causes people to go out too fast or to go out too cautiously. For me, it was understanding that, okay, I'm feeling this, but so is this guy to my right and so is this guy to my left. If I can learn how to simply channel all that crazy amount of energy a little bit better, just a little bit better than the guys next to me, then I stand a much better chance of

performing well at this race than those guys. I focused a lot at the beginning part of the race and the feelings that I was getting, and then also at the very end of the race where, I mean, oftentimes the majority of these times, at least for me, it was coming down to that last 15 meters about who can you touch out to win that medal. And every medal I won at the Olympics in 2000, 2004, it all came down to the last 50 meters and, and being able to kind of dig deep and, and, and, and get your hand on the wall first. So I spent a lot of time at the very end and looking up at the clock and seeing those results.

Okay. And so you are also using it for obviously neurological patterning, um, is happens when you do rehearsal. Like that's a interesting concept in sports psychology, but you're also using it for arousal regulation, like managing the emotional intensity that comes with, you know, something that's important. So it sounds like you had a couple of things that you were using it for. Yeah, absolutely. All right. So let's talk about transitions. You're at the end, you're gutted, the end of your career, sorry, let me be more specific specific you're gutted emotionally um your psychological framework is upside down you turn to some alcohol and other drugs like how do you get out of that

and then how do you how do you get into your new career uh that that i know you from because we met through the partnership that we've built here uh with whoop finding mastery and whoop so how like how does that transition happen and what what is your title? Director of? Director of military performance. So I deal predominantly within the special forces community. And, you know, specifically within a program that is called POTIF, which is preservation of the force and family. The idea behind that is, is to help build a more resilient and ready warfighter. I mean, these guys are, have been on the forefront of what is a very bloody war, unbeknownst to the public oftentimes.

These guys are so good at what they do, they get used to the core. And the commander of SOCOM about eight years ago was very forward thinking and understanding that a lot of the guys that he was using were being stretched thin to the point that mental health was becoming an issue, PTSD was becoming an issue, suicide. And he understood that he may not have a force in 10 years' time if he didn't take action. And so that really built the framework of mental health component to these guys' lives, a spiritual component to these guys' lives, and a human performance component, and to help build the resiliency and the readiness of the warfighter. And so WHOOP, as a really good gauge of performance physically, but also one mental and psychological as well,

we fall under a couple different programs of record there. And dealing with these guys has been one of the best things I've done, actually the best thing I've done professionally. That purpose that I spoke about, it's returned. I mean, WHOOP has returned that purpose just in general, but specifically this role with the military and dealing with these guys has brought back a lot of purpose to my life. And it feels fantastic doing it. But to take a couple of steps back you know, you asked, you know, what that transition was like, and kind of how I ended up at whoop. Well, you know, I, I was getting to the world of finance. And, you know, and it brought me a lot of cool places,

you know, initially, San Francisco, and then over to Asia, I was working in Singapore, and then up to Hong Kong. But the industry in general is very loose in that regard, right? I mean, they're bringing clients out, you're, you them. And then you're up early the next morning, and you're doing a very high stress job. And it was really hard for me to, to one, stay focused and manage that stress, especially when it wasn't something I was passionate about. And when you live overseas, even though I met fantastic people, and some of these people are still my best friends to this day, you lose your identity. And a lot of times, you know, I was no longer a Trojan, right? I was no longer, you know, a swimmer, I was an expat. And that expat lifestyle can get kind of crazy. And it just kind of took hold of me. And losing that,

that path and that that compass that I spoke about earlier, and also kind of losing hold of me. And losing that path and that compass that I spoke about earlier, and also kind of losing your identity in a lot of regards when you're over there, it just left me empty. And I remember I was looking around the trading floor when I was in Hong Kong. And I mean, I was at a low point physically, mentally, psychologically. I wasn't happy. And this happens quite a bit over there. I mean, there's unfortunately a lot of cases of suicide with expats. And not to say that I was thinking that because I wasn't. But I knew that I had to make a change and I knew that I internship, truth be told, at a venture capital firm in Los Angeles. And the idea there was to find a startup that I was passionate about. And I've made a lot of naive choices along the way. And this, truth be told, too, was another one of them. I said, I just have to find a startup. That's what I have to do. Luckily, that actually

worked out. And that's where I became familiar with Will Ahmed. At the time, we were called Bobo Analytics. That's since been called Whoop. They were very early stage at the time, but I kept in touch with them. And when they needed business development, it was time for me to join. That was about three and a half years ago. And I've been with them ever since. And then did you know, like you wanted to do something in the field of whether it be military or sport or analytics or technology, did you have that set up before, like when you're looking for the startup or did you just naturally organically like, Oh my God, this feels like wonderful. Like I'm trying to get a sense of what came first,

the thought of where you want to work in or the actual product exposure and analytics. Yeah, no, initially it was the product. It was product exposure to the wearable technology industry. I knew that that was kind of the future. And it was also a door reopening to the athletic world. And I knew I wanted to be a part of that again. I knew I wanted to be around those people again. I knew I wanted to be around that mindset again. And that was something that was just really missing, right? It was that the mindset of excellence was missing in my day-to-day life. Interactions with those type of people was missing in my day-to-day life. And so I dove in deep to wearable technology because I knew that athletes were going to be using it. And at the time, this was probably five years ago,

wearable tech hadn't really necessarily reached the, you know, I mean, you had your Fitbits, you had your Jawbones, you were counting steps. It was for the couch potato. It wasn't for the athlete. But I kept on digging because I knew that the demographic that would be most suited for something like I wanted to stick around and stay close to. And, you know, it was very early stages and what they needed was engineers. It wasn't business development guys, but I wanted to keep close enough contact with him that when that time arose that I was able to make that jump. Okay. And then, all right. So you've, this is unfolding in front of you. And then did you have training in business or is, is this like you're figuring out as you go? I'm figuring out as I go. Okay.

All right. So what, what, what gives you the idea that you could figure out business as you go? It's pretty complicated. It's not easy. But where does that come from? And I'm not trying to be a jerk. I'm just really trying to understand. Some people, they've got advanced degrees in business.

And you're like, no, no, no, I'm going to figure it out. Yeah, no, I think that goes back to the core belief in myself. I've been able, let's put it this way. In a world of finance, index futures, stock loan, things that I didn't care about, things that were very hard concepts to understand and then package and bring down into a form that was sellable to the opposite side, I was able to do. And those were things that I didn't necessarily care about. The stuff I did in finance fell very much in line with the stuff

I did in swimming in the sense that if I set a goal and I stick to it, I can accomplish it. And that was with something that, you know, the first part was swimming. I was incredibly passionate about and I was able to reach the pinnacle of the sport within the world of finance, even though I found success. And it was against, you know, it was against the grain of my strengths. I was, you know, still able to find success in the, in these really exotic and incredibly difficult concepts. So for me, being able to jump back into a world that was familiar with me or familiar to me, it didn't seem like that far of a leap of faith for me to think that I could do this. Okay. And then this is going to sound like a plug, you know, but why whoop? And I don't,

I don't mean to sound like a plug, you know, but why this technology, by the way, just so everyone's really clear and you're really clear. Like, I love it. I think what you're doing is great. I think that, um, the inner, you crack the interface that is super user-friendly. And, um, I think that that's a really important part of changing thinking and behaviors is to have data that we can use. And so you've got that part right. But at least from my lenses, why whoop for you? For me, it was a no-brainer. I mean, we're the only people doing what we do.

And what we're doing is incredibly valuable, not just for the athlete, but for the special forces community and for the population at large that wants to be the best version of themselves. We're offering you a product to go do that. And so I'm at the forefront of a movement, I really feel, and it's growing day by day. People like yourself, your community, your people, the people that the community of whoop that's growing day by day of people that are understanding the decisions that they're making and how it's affecting their body on a deeper level. And that's what we're providing feedback on. And the result is a more knowledgeable individual who's taking more ownership over their lives to become better versions of themselves. And to me, that is one of the more compelling reasons I could ever think about to wake up in the morning, whether

you're a special forces guy, whether you're a NBA or NFL athlete, or, you know, a kick-ass NCAA athlete who's hoping to get to the Olympics, or if you're just some guy or some lady who's looking to better themselves. We're offering you a product to do that. And we're, we're offering, and we're offering you a product to do that and we're we're offering and we're and we're showing you objective insights and and like you said we cracked the the interface code well for whatever reason it's sticky and people are using us at a much higher degree than any other wearable in history and so the impact that we're having on these people's lives is real and it's huge and it's and and it's something that like i said is is compelling beyond belief for me to get up in the morning and actually want to be a part of it. Eric, when it comes to HRV, how are you guys measuring it as it relates to being a sensitive piece of information relative to overall readiness? When and how are you guys measuring that? So we have a patent on how and when we calculate HRV.

And I'll kind of touch up on the importance of that patent here in a second. But the nuts and bolts of it are is that we calculate HRV over the last five minutes of your last slow-wave sleep cycle. And so it's a five-minute reading. You get it upon waking up. And it's a snapshot of your autonom slow-wave sleep cycle. And so it's a five-minute reading. You get it upon waking up, and it's a snapshot of your autonomic nervous system. And so it's a couple things. One, it's an indication of how well prepared your body is on that given day to perform and take on strain or stress.

And on the flip side of the token, it's a good indication of how your body is adapting and responding to various external stressors. So that's how we calculate HRV. Now, the important part and the reason why we have a patent protecting how and when we calculate it is because every other HRV monitor on the market requires the individual first and foremost to wake up. Now, upon waking up, there is a variety of external variables from psychological to mental

to behavioral that are going to affect the accuracy and the reliability of that score. Things as simple as having a cup of water or going to the bathroom, even the alarm clock going off, or listening to something on the radio that might upset you or get you excited. And that right there is literally just the tip of the iceberg of things that will affect the consistency of that score upon waking up. So that's number one. Number two, you have to think about the longitudinal side of this, right? So if you're an individual and you're required to take your HRV upon waking up each day, the chances of you doing that 365 days a year, it's going to be few and far between.

That's why I moved away from HRV for that very reason, is that you've got to do it first thing in the morning. You've got to have the experience just right. And it's really hard. There's a lot of friction to get that information in. That is the reason why I moved away from five years ago, I guess it was, maybe even longer, HRV. It was just really hard.

Exactly. And this is the most important part of, of, of our IP and that patent. It's that we, our IP allows for the most reproducible metrics of HRV. So you can track longitudinally as an individual, as a team, as a coach, you can really begin to understand the day to day and the month to month, the training, the training cycles and, and how each individual is adapting to it because we're allowing for the most reproducible metrics of HRV. And that's really the core of it is our system. One, because we erase all those external variables, we have the least noisy and the most actionable

HRV metric out there on a day-to-day basis. And two, probably more importantly, we allow for the most reproducible metrics of HRV. As a result, you're going to get a view that has otherwise not been seen before. It's really good. I wish that my HRV was higher. I look at it and it's like ridiculously low sometimes. And I know why, you know, it's not hard to deduce. But so I do struggle with that part of recovery.

And I don't know. Do you hear that often from people? Or is that not alarming? No, no, I think we hear that quite a bit. One of the things we hear all the time is how can we get this HRV higher? How can I what what can I do to get this HRV higher? And, and oftentimes, it's very simple, right? It's live holistically. It's go to bed roughly the same time each night, wake up roughly the same time each morning. It's drink a lot of water. It's work out. It's meditate.

It's practice mindfulness throughout the day, mitigating those stress levels throughout the day and ultimately once you start tying in all those different things, I mean there is no magic bullet, right? You can't biohack HRV. You can't take, you know, certain supplements and see a spike in HRV and have that be sustained. Really what it is, is it's going to be a reflection of your lifestyle. And that's why whoop, I think is so compelling getting a back on why whoop, right? And you know, well, why whoop is because, you know, a lot of people get fixated on that HRV and,

and, and how they're going to change it is a holistic way and a holistic approach towards, towards changing their lifestyle. And as a result, they begin to see rises in HRV and, and, and they see rises in HRV because they're choosing the right things. And with that, you have a healthier, higher performing population. And so that to me is what's really exciting about the platform. hotel rooms. And so there's something that happens in our brain where it is harder to have deep sleep when we're in a new environment, at least for me. But I don't think that that's not an uncommon experience. Even though we say, oh, we had a great night's sleep, it's not as good. It's just flat out not as good when you're in a new bed for the first time. And so I noticed that like, it's just, it crushes me. Now, one other thing about HRV and let's call it

the readiness score. So one of the first things, so myself and people in my community, we'll take screenshots in the morning and send it to each other, competing with each other to see who has the highest HRV. I know we're nerds and who has the best recovery scores. And then, because what that means is who's ever got the best recovery scores has the opportunity to train the hardest that day to get after it the hardest and so two days ago i sent a it was like a 22 it's like a big red dial and i was like what god so i had to send that out and so everyone's holding me accountable like okay you're falling behind dude and so you know we love it we're flipping on its head and we're competing with each other to see who can work the hardest because we know what it takes to be successful at whatever we're

doing. And then you said something in one of our previous conversations is that when you're down in those twenties and thirties, like hang it up, don't even bother trying to train, maybe do some light, light something, but don't even bother trying to get after it. And can you go a little bit further on that thought? Yeah. Well, it's really what that recovery score is meant to show you is it's an indication of really what your body can take on in terms of strain or stress. So when you're thinking about it in that regard, you're almost training, right? So if you do – let's just take a couple of steps back. So if you're doing the same exact workout when you're 98% recovered versus when you're 2%

recovered, your strain is going to be incredibly a lot, a lot higher when it's 2%, because for you to go through those motions, when you're 2% recovered, it's going to be incredibly difficult versus when you're 98%. It's almost like you're in the flow. You're in the zone when you're 98%. You can do no wrong. And those are the days that you really want to get out there and tack it because those are the days that your body is actually making the physical gains. So if your body isn't able or willing to take on that strain of stress, it's not able or willing to turn those into physical gains. So you're almost training for training's sake at that point. What would you say if I'm going to do this project, right? From Catalina to Redondo,

and I wake up the morning of the event, winds are right, everything is right and primed, but I wake up first thing out of the gates, out of bed, and I look at, and I'm at 28% recovered. What would you say? Um, I wouldn't necessarily think that on, on race day, that that was necessarily a sign of your physical ability. And, and, and this right here is where you, you, you need to be wearing the, uh, the device long enough for you to kind of dive in and understand this, but that low HRV, and we see this with our swimmers as they head into Rio, for example, they start tapering, their HRV starts soaring. But interestingly enough, two, three days before their race, their HRV starts to drop.

And that's because the psychological impact of that impending race, right? So psychologically speaking, you could have put a lot of stress on your system because of it is race day. So it's not on those days, on those days of big events, it's not necessarily a lot of stress on your system because it is race day. So it's not on those days, on those days of big events, it's not necessarily a sign of what you're physically capable of doing, more a sign of, hey, you know what, you're psychologically stressed and that requires a different intervention than taking the day off physically. So for me, what I would recommend is that you wake up, you have your morning meditation and before the race, you're doing moments of breathing and relaxation. So you can bring that, psychologically speaking, that stress levels back up to where they need or back down to where they need to be rather. Physically,

chances are you're tapering, I would imagine, as you're heading into that race. Physically, you're ready to go. You know that. Psychologically, by looking at that low score, you know that you're stressed and that requires a far different intervention than taking the day off from you know that. Psychologically, by looking at that low score, you know that you're stressed and that requires a far different intervention than taking the day off from paddleboarding. Perfect. I love it. Eric, I really appreciate partnering up with you guys. I've enjoyed your product. I think it's a game changer for people who want to understand the balance between recovery and stress and the modalities and the practices that help increase recovery so they can deal with stress better. And so I want to thank you for

the support. I want to thank you for everything that you guys have done for us. And in return, that's why I'm so stoked to do whatever I can on our side to be able to support you guys. So well done. I love it. And, um, yeah, I just want to say thank you. Yeah. Thank you. I really appreciate it. Um, and it's good to be, uh, it's going to be talking with you again. Yeah, for sure. Okay. So where can people find you? Where can they, whether it's, I know we've got a code, which is whoop.com forward slash finding mastery, but then people that want to connect with you, is there any way, do you have any social media? Do you have anything, uh, as a way to connect? Yeah. Um, so I, I'm a little bit, uh, behind the

times in terms of, uh, having no, uh, no Snapchat, no Instagram, no Facebook, but I do have, I do have LinkedIn and I'm very active on LinkedIn and, uh, that would be the best way to connect with me. Okay. Brilliant. And it's your name. Is that right? Yeah. And I, you know, to this day, I'm the only Eric Vent with a K out there. I have found another Eric Vent with a C, but I'm the only Eric Vent with a K. So I'm pretty easy to find on LinkedIn. There you go. Okay, a couple quick hits really quickly. How do you answer this thought? Success is? Success is knowing you gave it everything you possibly had to give and leaving no stone unturned.

It all comes down to? It all comes down to whether you think you can or think you can't. And how do you articulate or define mastery? Being able to obtain flow state on a regular basis. And to me, flow state is the zone. So good. Do you have any practices that increase your frequency of flow? Certainly, we spoke a lot about it, but imagery is one of them.

And I think at the core of it is that 10,000 hour rule that Malcolm Gladwell talks about. So the more hours you put in towards that, you know, towards mastering your craft, that is going to be your foundation. And then imagery, confidence levels, mental mindset, that type of approach towards it, I think is all just kind of cherries on top of the sundae. But the core has to be, you know, you have to put in the work. Boy, it makes sense why you've been able to do what you've done. So Eric, congratulations on your body of work. Thank you for the support. I love what you guys are doing. Thank you for the time in this conversation. And if you haven't tried

out their technology yet, they just created an amazing offer for Finding Mastery listeners. I want to encourage you to check it out. Your first month is now free when you sign up at whoop.com forward slash Finding Mastery. So you've got to use the code Finding Mastery, all one word, all caps. And if you haven't signed up for our Finding Mastery tribe, it's a great resource. Thousands and thousands of people that are supporting and challenging each other on the path of mastery. And so that's, you can find that on our website as well, which is finding mastery.net. You can find me at at Michael Gervais on Twitter and the same on Instagram. So I wish everyone their very best and hopefully the we've celebrated Eric's life in a way that it's inspired you to take

action to do differently is often requires to think differently. And Eric has shared with us all the reasons to think differently. So Eric, again, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much. I into another episode of finding mastery with us our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you we really appreciate you being part of this community and if you're enjoying the show the easiest no-cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're listening. Also,

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