Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Everything You Know About Longevity is Wrong | Dr. Gabrielle Lyon

Episode Date: August 31, 2022

This week’s conversation is with Dr. Gabrielle Lyon, a functional medicine physician and the founder of the Institute for Muscle-Centric Medicine. Gabrielle received her doctorate in osteopathic medicine from the Arizona College of Osteopathic Medicine and is board-certified in family medicine. She earned her undergraduate degree in Human Nutrition where specialized in vitamin and mineral metabolism. Now, in her private medical practice, Gabrielle leverages evidence-based medicine with emerging cutting-edge science to restore metabolism, balance hormones, and optimize body composition with the goal of lifelong vitality. Her patients include world-class athletes, as well as elite military operators such as Navy SEALS, Green Berets, Army Rangers and US & Canadian Special Forces. In a world where vegetarianism and veganism have seemingly become the “gold standard” for health, Gabrielle has quite a different perspective, and it was fascinating to learn about some of Gabrielle’s unique approaches to health and longevity. We discuss nutrition, lifestyle, the importance of protein, and how - from her perspective - muscle health is the ultimate key to optimal aging._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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My name is Dr. Michael Gervais and by trade and training, I'm a sport and performance psychologist. I love this podcast. I love these conversations. The people we get to learn from, the insights that they share, the best practices. I mean, we really are at ground zero for some of the best in the world sharing how they've organized their inner life to be able to express their potential and at the same time to be able to help others do the same. Now in this week's conversation, it's with Dr. Gabrielle Lyon. So she's a functional medicine physician, and she's also the founder of

the Institute for Muscle Centric Medicine. So she received her doctorate in osteopathic medicine from the Arizona College of Osteopathic Medicine. She's also board certified in family medicine. So there's a unique combination between her osteopathic training and her undergraduate degree training in human nutrition, where she specialized in vitamin and mineral metabolism. So now in her private practice, she leverages evidence-based medicine with emerging cutting edge science to help restore metabolism, to help balance hormones, and then to optimize body composition with a goal of lifelong vitality. A world-class athlete that has been setting the standard for

her sport for a long time referred Gabrielle to me. And that's pretty much how her practice looks. CEOs, military operators like Navy SEALs, Green Berets, Army Rangers, people really pushing. She's also working with the Canadian special forces forces as well in a world where vegetarianism and veganism have seemingly become the gold standard for health gabrielle says wait hold on that's cool i'm not saying that that's not okay but she's putting a tall flag in the ground saying there's something that you must if you're choosing that way you must get right. And she's using evidence-based to be able to have this conversation. And I loved, I loved listening to how she put it together. She knows her stuff.

It's amazing. And she's deeply interested in both health and longevity. So we work to understand nutrition, lifestyle, and the importance of, this is the tall flagpole for her, protein and how from her perspective, muscle health is the ultimate key to extending and enhancing healthspan. And with that, let's jump right into this week's conversation with Dr. Gabrielle Lyon. Gabrielle, how are you? I'm doing great. I'm doing great.

So a mutual friend of ours, a legend in her own right puts us together. And so Kerry Walsh Jennings, one of the, I mean, one of the forces, the most winning forces in volleyball, you know, professional Olympic volleyball. She and I were talking and she says, I got someone I want you to meet. I said, great, tell me about it. And she said, you know what? I'm not going to do it service, but you guys need to know each other. And our first conversation that we had, I was like, oh, this is going to be great. Like, I can't wait to share your insights with our community. So can you maybe start with a quick high level overview of what you're doing as in professional terms right now?

Yeah. So really there's two major avenues that I would say I am approaching. Number one is for everybody listening, everything that they thought they knew about obesity and longevity is wrong. And I am on a mission to course correct that. And the other part of what I do is I have a concierge medical practice in which I take care of real change makers, individuals like Carrie, and a portion of my practice is dedicated to special operations in the military. Yeah. So you have a good understanding of those that are right at the tip of the arrow at the tip of the spear that are pushing to the edges, you know, those pioneers that are requiring much from their mind and their body. Very much so. Yeah. And then, you know,

I don't think folks have a, I don't, I don't know this enough of appreciation about the training that you come from. And so can you talk about that? Because it's not a traditional MD and there's probably pros and cons to that, that you run into, but can you talk about your training? Yeah, I would love to. So the training is very long and I've had some incredible mentors, real masters in their craft. And I started my undergraduate in human nutrition, vitamin mineral metabolism at the University of Illinois, Champaign-Urbana, under the mentorship who now mentors me still 20 years later under a professor, Professor Emeritus named Dr. Donald Lehman. And for your listener, he is one of the, he cringes when I say this, one of the godfathers of protein metabolism, really made some incredible contributions as it relates to muscle health and ultimately longevity. So I did my undergraduate with him. Then I went off to medical school and I went to medical school in Arizona, which it was called Midwestern. It was an osteopathic school. I was very interested in sports medicine at the time.

And for someone who doesn't know what osteopathic medicine is, it's actually the same licensure as an MD. But so prescriptions are the same. Capacity to do surgery is the same. Everything is the same except for additional training in the musculoskeletal system. Then I did two years at the University of Louisville and an MD residency in psychiatry, believe it or not. I was extraordinarily interested in the mind. And, you know, I really think that that helped me. If I were to think about all the things that helped me the most as it relates to integrating communication, I would

say that that was it. Then I did three years of traditional family medicine at North Shore LIJ, and then a postdoc in obesity medicine, geriatrics and nutritional sciences, which was also MD training at WashU, Washington University in St. Louis. So the reason I wanted to set that up is because, you know, we know what a PhD, MD, you know, is, but that track is actually that you've taken. There's a unique, special understanding that I think is required for most people. So this is why I wanted to talk to you is because you have deep traditional roots and also you've specialized in how the body works. And so all that being said, from a more of a functional standpoint. So all that being said is I know what we're going to get into is kind of a muscle centric conversation about wellbeing.

But when we think about kind of the big frameworks that you're working from. You want to go from two, if we use that as a framework, you want to go from conversations about obesity to, you know, can you walk us through a couple from twos for you? Yeah. Yeah. I, I really love that. And I think that this conversation about obesity touches everybody, whether, you know, if it doesn't touch the individual, we know for a fact it's touched someone in their life, whether it's a parent, whether it's a brother, sister, a coworker. And this idea and conversation around obesity is very limiting. It's a problem we've been trying to correct for decades. And when I think about a problem and then a solution, if we are asking the appropriate

question, there is a subsequent solution, right? The answer comes and we are effective and efficient at treating it. And this really goes back to during my training when I was, I did clinical research and then saw patients. So we worked with not rat models, but actual human subjects. And there was a moment in my research where I really felt like we were failing everybody. We were failing, the medical society was failing this idea of health, wellness, and longevity. And, you know, if you permit me, I will tell you very quickly, an abbreviated version of this story. I, we were doing a weight loss study and this was an amazing woman. And she was a mother of three in her late forties, early fifties. And she always struggled with 10, 15 pounds. And I went to

image her brain and this struggle of not just obesity, but really the fact that she had very little muscle. I imaged her brain and her brain looked like an Alzheimer's brain. And I realized at this moment that here, this woman had tried all of these things, had put a tremendous amount of effort. And we as a community, as a medical society had failed her. And probably the failure wasn't just us, but it was overtly this messaging. And it was at that moment that this concept of muscle-centric medicine was born. And this idea that, you know, we must shift from a fat focused perspective to

muscle centric when we think about empowerment. And that goes far beyond athletics. It really ends up being the foundation for health and wellness that arguably is completely misinterpreted and totally missed. So that's, that's kind of what happened. Okay. So if you were to have like this guiding hope that you, that people would take away from this conversation, what would you hope that they say? Oh, I, okay. I get, cause we're going to get into some weeds here, but what would be before we kind of set that nuance conversation up? What would be the guiding hope that you have for people? That they understand muscle is the organ of longevity, that your trajectory of

capacity is all based on muscle. And again, separate from performance, but truly as this organ system that really needs to be leveraged for health and wellness. Okay. It's really important for two things. One is you, most people refer to muscle as tissue, but we know it's not tissue. It's an organ. So can you double click there for just a minute and just illuminate the science underneath what, well, you don't need to take it too far. I was going to say, what's the difference between tissue and organ, but most people think about muscle as tissue. So, and it's well accepted that it's, it is, and it's also an organ. So can you talk about the, the organ structure? Yeah, of course. Um, you're absolutely correct

when we think about skeletal muscle and obviously the people that you interface with, you know, there's, they're very high achieving individuals and muscle for them. And the majority of individuals right now is fitness focused. And when I say fitness, I mean, it's about cardiovascular health or it's about, you know, being strong and capable and it's all those things. And it is an endocrine organ. In fact, it is the largest endocrine organ in the entire body based on weight. It makes up 40% of our body weight. And when you contract skeletal muscle, it secretes these things called myokines, which are proteins that actually interface inter organ systems. It interfaces with

the immune system. It interfaces with the brain. It interfaces with the bone. It interfaces with every tissue in our body based on these myokines. It's above it. So we do leverage fitness to stimulate skeletal muscle, but skeletal muscle in and of itself is an endocrine organ that, you know, it's really interesting as a society, whether we use it or not is totally up to us. You could probably go an entire day and not get up and move around. You could probably not train hard. And, you know, for other individuals who have trained their whole life, perhaps they always look fit, but it's really understanding that it is this critical pinnacle of health and wellness above and beyond fitness and it's interfaced with all tissues in our body as a broad overview. Perfect. And then

if we double click on this just really quickly, like it's just an applied framework, everybody's going to be different is the easy answer that you would say to this question. But general recommendations for doing something with weights, resistance, where you're stressing that organ in the appropriate ways. In fact, it's a non-negotiable. And when you think about general recommendations for everybody, I want to set the framework for what actually happens to that tissue if it is not very much focused on and managed. And that is over time, skeletal muscle becomes what we call anabolically resistant. And I'm going to kind of lay the framework and the foundation for

understanding so that the recommendations I give make a ton of sense to everybody. And they can get off this podcast or YouTube and immediately implement something that will help them with longevity and aging and wellness, right? And that can start at any age. One thing that happens that we know, skeletal muscle, that tissue changes over time. Now, cognitively and visually, we see that. We see older individuals get sarcopenic. We even see elite athletes change in their structure. Their muscles get smaller. I'm sure you deal with that all the time. And, and certainly as they transition from say a peak of

a physical career, there's kind of a slow decline. Skeletal muscle. Are you ready for this? Is actually a nutrient sensing organ, skeletal muscle. Sure. Yeah. I've never heard it said, and it works. Finding Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn sales solutions in any high-performing environment that I've been part of from elite teams to executive boardrooms, one thing holds true. Meaningful relationships are at the center of sustained success. And building those relationships, it takes more than effort. It takes a real caring about your people.

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relationships that actually convert, try LinkedIn Sales Navigator for free for 60 days at linkedin.com slash deal. That's linkedin.com slash deal. For two full months for free, terms and conditions apply. Finding Mastery is brought to you by David Protein. I'm pretty intentional about what I eat, and the majority of my nutrition comes from whole foods. And when I'm traveling or in between meals, on a demanding day certainly, I need something quick that will support the way that I feel and think and perform. And that's why I've been leaning on David Protein Bars. And so has the team here at Finding Mastery. In fact, our GM, Stuart, he loves them so much. I just want to kind of quickly put

him on the spot. Stuart, I know you're listening. I think you might be the reason that we're running out of these bars so quickly. They're incredible, Mike. I love them. One a day, one a day. What do you mean one a day? There's way more than that happening here. Don't tell. Okay. All right. Look, they're incredibly simple. They're effective. 28 grams of protein, just 150 calories and zero grams of sugar. It's rare to find something that fits so conveniently into a performance-based lifestyle and actually tastes good. Dr. Peter Attia, someone who's been on the show, it's a great episode by the way, is also their chief science officer. So I know they've done their due diligence in that

category. My favorite flavor right now is the chocolate chip cookie dough. And a few of our teammates here at Finding Mastery have been loving the fudge brownie and peanut butter. I know, Stuart, you're still listening here. So getting enough protein matters, and that can't be understated, not just for strength, but for energy and focus, recovery, for longevity. And I love that David is making that easier.

So if you're trying to hit your daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value and 10% off for life. When you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David D A V I D protein P R O T E I N.com slash finding mastery. It makes perfect sense. You know, like amino acids, fill in the blank, right? Exactly. And its capacity to sense and its efficiency decreases the older we get.

So meaning, so the application of that is that- If you eat the way that you did in your 20 twenties or even at the prime of your physical fitness, then you are not necessarily going to be leverage, leveraging the amino acid dosing necessary to protect that skeletal muscle. Simply said, skeletal muscle requires a meal threshold, a bolus amount of protein as individuals age, dietary protein becomes more important to protect skeletal muscle. The older we are not less important and it needs to be ingested in a meal threshold. So for the listener, that would be between 30 and 50, 55 grams of protein.

Whoa. Listen, you're, you're, you're the expert here. And I'm, but I'm going to tell you what I've been thinking for a long time. This is why I love these conversations because you're going to of course, correct me. I've always been under the assumption. Um, and this is maybe old data that I, I'm not processing more than 30 grams per three hours of protein somewhere in that somewhere like plus or minus five, you know, like somewhere in that range. So most of my meals are around that. And I know like if I'm getting a 40 to 50, it feels like, um, I just can't get enough, uh, complex carbs in the meal to like, I'm too full and it's like oversaturated on protein as opposed to healthy fat and carbs. But of course, just stay on the protein. I'm sorry to introduce all of those variables.

Just stay on the protein, 30 to 50. And wait, that's got to be size dependent at some level or efficiency dependent. It's not sex dependent or size dependent, which is really important. You can tell that you've kind of been in this game for a long time because you're bringing up a really good points.

Really, first of all, the 30 grams of protein, you can absorb all the protein that you ingest, right? Whether you're ingesting 30 to 80, you absorb all of that protein from a muscle perspective. Once you hit 50, 55 grams, you do no benefit for skeletal muscle. There it is. Okay. Right. So it's plus 50, 55 grams, you do no benefit for skeletal muscle. There it is. Okay. Right. So it's plus 50, 55. Yeah.

So after that, you absorb all of it. You can use it for tissue turnover, but from a skeletal muscle perspective, totally unnecessary. Got it. Okay. The other part of that, that I think is really astute is- Oh, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Before we go on, give a visual, like a chicken breast is 30, right? So like a US based- Four ounces would be a minimum. That's a minimum. Four ounces, but that would sit in your hand in a reasonable way, right? Yes. And that's actually a minimum amount. Now you said something really astute, which goes back

to the 30 grams. When you are younger, then you get the same muscle effect at 30 grams. So your youthful tissue would likely be optimized at 30 grams. That's what's happening. In your 20s. Right. But as you become more mature, the ability to sense those amino acids decreases. And if your listener is, say they put on weight during the pandemic, or they are struggling with some chronic health issue, or they're in a highly catabolic state where they're really burning through nutrients, the tissue really requires

that bolus amount of protein to stimulate that muscle protein synthesis. Wait, what is the words you're using bolus? Yeah. So a meal threshold, a meal threshold. Okay. Protein or I should say, so there's 20 amino acids, 20 amino acids that the human interfaces with dietary amino acids, nine of which are essential. Nine are okay. Nine are nine are essential things like histidine, we don't necessarily need past the growth phase. Of those nine essential, the branch chain amino acids, which simply relates to

the structure of the amino acid, of those nine essential leucine of the branch chains. There's leucine, isoleucine, and valine. And leucine is the amino acid that is necessary for stimulating muscle tissue, no matter what. Let's go back up just for one level is that the reason, because you hit on something I want to take us down a path, but I want to go back up really quickly is that the reason we want to maintain, um, that organ and that tissue to be healthy is because it is direct, directly linked to overall vitality, wellness, wellbeing, let alone performance. We are not talking about performance other than the performance of, um, when you get into your 60s, 70s, 80s, and not falling down because like you lack mobility or strength and or bone density, which must lifting, lifting heavy things does

two things, right? It sends signals to your brain, like, Oh, you need to be strong. That's good. The tissue needs to respond in a particular way to that. And then also it, it helps with bone density. Both of those take place. So, but let's go back up. Do I have that framing, right? That that's why you are one of the main reasons why you're saying let it let's over-rotate on muscle health and get that as a first principle for overall vitality. Yeah, that's absolutely right. And another level to that is when we think about the diseases that we're seeing in our society, everybody talks about insulin resistance, right? Insulin resistance, obesity, diabetes, cardiovascular disease, Alzheimer's. Do you know where that one of the primary defects is in the body? a decade before this even manifests are you ready you ready to have your

mind blown skeletal muscle insulin resistance can begin a decade before and there's a study out of yale his name is gerald shulman he is a really great researcher and he's been working on this data for a very long time he has shown that individuals that are healthy sedentary, which by the way, I don't believe that healthy and sedentary can go in the same sentence, but a healthy sedentary 20 year old shows signs of skeletal muscle insulin resistance before you see any changes on their blood work. So what I'm saying- If you dropped healthy from that and just said a sedentary 20-year-old- Insulin resistant. Insulin resistant. Okay. And for folks that aren't familiar with why that insulin resistance is such an important

framing, can you explain that just quickly? Insulin resistance is, we've all heard about carbohydrates and, or many people have heard carbohydrates and insulin is a peptide hormone that is released from the pancreas and moves glucose out. So glucose in general is cytotoxic. It's a toxic molecule to tissues. We need it, but it needs to be out of the bloodstream. It needs to be utilized. The way in which your body utilizes it is it can be moved through exercise, movement and insulin. So insulin is what moves

glucose out of the bloodstream. One of the major defects, one of the major issues that we are seeing is insulin resistance, meaning the body is overproducing insulin because it is no longer as sensitive to it. And we're really overworking the body. Our levels of glucose are much too high and we're aging much earlier and we're becoming frail much earlier. And we're dealing with diseases like heart disease, which kills a tremendous amount of people. Alzheimer's again, cardio, you know, all of these diseases of aging can, many of them can be linked back to skeletal muscle health. Okay. And you would say that more importantly than like the high fructose corn syrup, obviously that's going to impact. Exactly. Yes. So this is what's so

important is people are saying, well, you know, we're getting fatty liver, you know, high fructose corn syrup. Yes. All that's a problem. You cannot exercise your liver, but what you can do is you can improve your muscle health to then as a, as a focal point to then deal with all other aspects. And that in a crazy way, if somebody has really healthy muscular organ system and tissue and strong, nimble, flexible, you know, highly mobile, all those things that we would consider, would you say that they would have a higher tolerance to shitty food like fruit, corn syrup?

Yes. Yes. And obviously we're not trying to like play some silly game there. We're trying to say like, drop that, drop those toxins, you know, that are loaded up in sugary drinks and, and, and, and then, and then, but listen, first lever, first primary mover is get your muscle system in place. Right. Right. Okay. Keep going. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and also if you can hear my baby screaming, I'll have the NANI, the NANI to hear the baby screaming. No, no, it's good. I'm like texting the nanny.

Is the nanny screaming or the baby screaming? It's a, it's a difference. Yeah. Leonidas is 18 months. Um, Oh, so wait, you're an eight. You have an 18 month old. I have a two and a half. I have almost three and an 18 month old. Yeah. Okay. Hold on. Hold on. Good segue here. What are you doing for sleep? A fan and earplugs. Okay. So is your sleep compromised at 18 months? No, no.

It's not compromised. No. My kid kicks me in the head, you know, cause we're, Shane gets up at four 30 in the morning. So she's been up with me, but no, absolutely not. Wow. So you figured out sleep with a new. Oh yes. We're a military family., absolutely not. Wow. So you figured out sleep with a new mom? Yes. We're a military family. No. Okay. Yes. So did you change any of your nutrition by being a new mom? Did I change any of my nutrition by being a new mom? When I was breastfeeding, my diet was higher in carbohydrates and higher in fat, I would say, but otherwise, no. Okay. Yeah. Interesting. Okay, good. Yep. And then while we're here on

motherhood, can you talk a little about nutrition and perimenopause, menopause, menstruation? Can you talk to the women in our community about, you know, anything here that we would normally miss because we just don't have this conversation enough? I would love to. Number one, so skeletal muscle is key here. And so this is, I work with a ton of women in and around these age groups. And when you think about what skeletal muscle does is it's the primary site for glucose disposal. So you were talking earlier about complex carbs. Muscle is the primary site for that disposal. When women are going through hormonal changes, they are primed to lose skeletal muscle mass at that time. Hormones dip, whether it's

estrogen, testosterone, these hormones dip, their spontaneous activity decreases. We don't exactly know why, but when women, and again, when women are going through menopause, we see a redistribution of body weight centrally. And this actually can be avoided. And I'm going to give you a couple tips as to how that happens. Number one, really getting a good sense of what the calories are that you are ingesting. And people will argue that calories don't matter as long as it's coming from high quality food. That is absolutely not true. At the end of the day, you have to understand how many calories that you're ingesting. So number one, based on that, you have to prioritize dietary protein.

Here's why. And I'll give you my recommendation. One gram per pound, ideal body weight. This is extremely important for women who are going through menopause, perimenopause, or even trying to lose that extra baby weight. Really, really important information. One gram per pound, ideal body weight. So somebody wanted to be 125. I have no idea what the numbers are. I know what my wife weighs, but I don't know what the other one was. I would recommend 125 grams of dietary protein. Yeah, but that's not what she weighs, but just to be clear. Right. Like 110 pounds, 110 pounds, 110 grams of dietary protein.

She should prioritize per day, per day, which is most important that 24 hour period, the 24 hour protein hierarchy is most important. Again, you can do all sorts of things like meal distribution, which we talked about earlier, that leucine amino acid level, all very important, but for women who really want body recomposition and who are up against hormonal changes and, or not getting sleep, you know, post baby, um, one gram per pound, ideal body weight. Number one, number two, um, choosing the sources of protein. So I actually recommend choosing lean sources of protein, and that just means really leaner cuts. So there's a big push for, you know, ketogenic diets, adding fats. I don't think that you have to do any of that.

I think that you really need to choose low fat dairies. If you're having dairy, low fat dairy and low fat meats, then you can build on carbohydrates. Now, carbohydrates are interesting because you have to earn your carbs. And I typically start individuals at between 90 and a hundred grams of carbs. They can titrate up or titrate down depending on activity level. The next layer for that and the studies that actually I worked on. So I ran a weight management clinic and the studies that I worked on were for women in this age group, quite frankly.

So I did this in Dr. Donald Lehman's lab. And then I did this in my postdoc at WashU. And one of the things that is really important to understand is that while we think about protein in a 24-hour period, we often think about carbohydrates in a 24-hour period. You shouldn't do that. There is a meal threshold for carbohydrates. And I see this especially important for women. And you're like, okay, well, what is a meal threshold for carbohydrates. And I see this especially important for women. And you're like, okay, well, what is the meal threshold?

Women should really not go over 40 grams of carbohydrates per meal if they are not being active because it generates, you know, we talked about that insulin, a more robust insulin response. So if you, yeah, go ahead. What does 40 grams of a complex carb look like? So complex carb, gosh, well, let's see in a half a, I don't know, maybe a half a cup of oatmeal is like what 27 grams of carbs or, um, you know, they could just calculate it out, but you know, not above, it gets tricky for me when I think about when I try to sort out like how many asparagus and how many, you know, that's, you're not going to hit that. Right. So now you're talking about vegetables. You're good. Yeah. High fiber, even fruits, you know, fruits are, they're great. And, you know, I typically look at the carbohydrate to fiber ratio, which you can, you know, there's

plenty of PubMed studies where it actually shows carbohydrate to fiber ratio and, or, you know, really choosing those high fiber fruits like berries. And then of course, vegetables, they're full of fiber, but this is really important for understanding that the nutrition, as it relates to perimenopause women, you know, typically are less active and the hormones are changing. If they prioritize protein, it improves satiation. And it also pushes the needle for that thermic effect of food, meaning for the energy it takes to utilize the dietary protein. And we're not talking about structurally denaturing it, but actually because of its impact on muscle health, you utilize these processes. So you end up, how do I say this? Storing less dietary protein is

very difficult to store as body fat. It's nearly impossible. It's very difficult to overeat. Okay. So the last thing here, and then I want to go to something a little bit controversial that your community definitely lit up about. I'll get to that in a second. My community lights up about a lot of things. Yeah. It was fun doing the research seeing like- I apologize in advance for that. The kind of lightning bolt moments are. So Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentus. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday. What you put in your body matters. And that's why I trust Momentus. From the moment I sat down with Jeff Byers, their co-founder and CEO, I could tell this was not your average supplement company.

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Let's just talk about that. So let's say that you're trying to get 125 grams and you said something really important. Ideal body weight. So first that means that your understanding of ideal is healthy. So there's some variants in there that we need to make sure that is accurate, if you will.

Is that the same for men? When I was doing a bunch of sport and lifting, it was like somewhere near like 2.2 pounds per kilogram of lean tissue is what I was doing. It was, I think it was too much, but what do you do for men? So for men, I definitely start with that recommendation for protein.

Men see, you know, it really depends on one, one pound, one gram per pound. I do the body weight because nobody knows their lean muscle mass. And also, um, it's very difficult to overeat dietary protein. Um, it's just, I mean, there's like a chicken breast threshold. You're not, you know, here's your chicken breasts. You're not hungry. You are not, I mean, you're not going to eat that. If you see a, you know, here's your chicken breast. You're not hungry. You are not. I mean, you're not going to eat that. If you see a, you know, like I just got a surprise for my husband, um, some paleo, I don't know, carrot cupcakes. If I'm like, honey, are you hungry? Here's your chicken breast. He's like, no. And then I'll show him the carrot cupcake. He's like, oh yeah, no, I'm totally hungry. There is a threshold. Um, The way protein stimulates gut hormones, individuals are much

less likely to overeat it. There is somewhat of a threshold, just a natural response in the body. So for men, you know, really prioritizing protein too, because again, it really ultimately comes down to two things, health of skeletal muscle, which that changes as we age, we must account for the dietary protein and really account for, you know, we don't want our muscle to look like a marbled steak, which ultimately will happen. If you do not prioritize protein and train to create that flux that marbleized fat, that kind of marbleized fat connective tissue, that's what happens. And it changes metabolism. So when people say my metabolism slowed down, really what they're saying is my muscle mass health decreased, my muscle health decreased.

I totally get that because the, the old understanding that, um that however many pounds of muscle and fat ratio, I can't remember the conversion. That's probably the tip of your tongue. But X number of pounds of fat versus X number of pounds of muscle. Muscle is heavier and it's also way more efficient for metabolism and other areas of the body. And you can leverage it. And you actually can cognitively come beyond the resistance. So one of the things, you know, just mentioned this with perimenopausal menopausal women weight gain, definitely recommend high intensity interval

training improves insulin sensitivity, even a cardiovascular base, which a lot of people will say, well, you know, I'm done with cardio. No, do it. The more activity, the better. Obviously you need a well-designed program, but you know, we are actually largely domesticated and this domestication, you know, if you just separate all the noise, the, the issues with it really come down to skeletal muscle as an organ system. And as that begins to degrade, then you have these subsequent issues like menopausal weight gain, like sarcopenic obesity, like these major changes in body composition that happen, which we chalk up to being normal

part of aging, which I do not feel that it is. Okay. And then before we go to intermittent conversation, there's an easy thing that happens for many people where they say lifting weights, like, I don't want to bulk up. I want to, I want to, I don't want to feel bulky. I want to look good in my clothes. And like, I don't want to have traps pushing up into my ears. And, you know, it's an easy, it's easy for us to respond and say, that's not how it works, but that's not the perception for many people. By the way, I wish that if I could just do a little bit of training, my, you know, I'd be popping up in my clothes, like I've got to work way damn too hard for it. But so how do you address that concern or that

fear that is obviously not valid? You know, right. So that is one big fear that people have that they don't want to bulk up. And the reality is like you pointed out before is as you change body composition, you don't really get bigger, you get smaller, you get tighter. And the amount of effort that it actually takes to put on muscle in a perfect world is exponentially more difficult, you know, and I will say women typically. So if a man, an untrained young man could put on 24 pounds of muscle in a year, which would be like incredibly difficult, incredibly difficult. Um, a woman would be able to put on half that, you know, you've got hormones

and just the musculature. It's very difficult. It's very, very difficult. Okay. Good to know. And then, so let's do intermittent fasting. So if I've got to get in, like, what am I weighing right now? Like 180. So if I've got to get 180 grams a day in and I'm restricting my feeding window, you know, and I'm, I'm, I'm fasting for 16 hours. Like I'm, I don't know how to do that. I honestly, like I've got to get four meals of like 50 grams, you know, or 40 grams to, to get close. So like, how do I, how do I do that? For you? Um, I would, you definitely want to front load that first meal optimizing for 50 grams and you want to actually backload that last meal at 50 grams. Okay. I would be very,

and then this way I know you're going to protect your tissue. So we've optimized for that first meal at 50. We've optimized for that last meal at 50, as you go into an overnight fast, I feel very confident that, you know, we're optimizing for protein, protecting your muscle. Then if you, it's going to be very hard to hit that 180. So then if you had another meal where it was maybe 30 grams, I would be okay with it. So now you're at 130 grams, you're on somewhat of a calorie restriction, but you and I've decided that we're going to add in your branch chain amino acids. We're going to add in a branch chain amino acid in that middle meal. I'm okay with as long as your first and your last meal are really optimized. I feel comfortable. And then again,

our goal is we're not looking for hypertrophy right now. You are interested in probably maintaining body weight, maintaining body composition. This is a way I would do it. That's how I would do it. Nothing wrong with hypertrophy, but you're saying I would need more. That would not be an ideal strategy for hypertrophy. If your goal is hypertrophy, then I would say we push you out to four meals, three or four meals. And then you would say drop that window from 16 hour restriction to 12.

Yes. So yes, time restricted. So intermittent fasting is not ideal for hypertrophy, right? Because you're forcing yourself. Now it's great for a lot of things as it relates to calorie control, as it relates to bowel rest, as it relates to circadian entrainment, right? We always think about light, but food is one of the bigger drive, you know, one of the biggest drivers of circadian entrainment from a body composition maintenance standpoint, time-restricted feeding is fine for a hypertrophy standpoint. It's not up. It's not optimal.

Lastly on that is, can you still like at a 12 hour restriction, can you still get into an autophagy phase where you're, you're cleansing some of that? Yeah, I think that there are many ways to, you know, so when we think about autophagy, to set the stage for that, we're really thinking about getting rid of old tissue, old cells, and allowing for house cleaning. And in and of itself, it's a very complex process, and there's multiple ways to do it. Whether it's fasted training, whether it's time-restricted feeding, whether it's protein restriction, whether it's 24 you know, 24 hour fast, I think that there's multiple ways to do it, including even calorie restriction. Do I believe that you can still do it in that way? Yes. And I would say if autophagy is kind of a goal, What are ways to do it that you could implement strategically? And I would say

a better target, a way to think about it, or an optional way to think about it would be every month for three days, you're going to do a restricted type feeding scenario. Or every three months, you're going to do a protocol that is very specific and implementable for autophagy. Okay. And so you would, okay. So then the suggestion would be like once a month doing a 72 hour fast. Is that, is that the first thing? Yeah, or 24 hours. Yes. And I think that there's no way to determine, you know, again, I think it's a very complex topic. I think that autophagy is one piece of it. There's something else called the integrated stress response. You know, so there's all different layers to autophagy. And the question is how, what is the baseline? Like, what is the outcome? What is the health outcome we're looking for? And how do we take that health health outcome and implement a strategy that is appropriate for

that? Is autophagy important to you? It is, it is, is it my primary focus? I would say I'm very obsessed with muscle health. I'm very obsessed with muscle health based on my training. And I, frankly, I think autophagy is really easy to get into. Like it's really easy to do. I'll give you an example. On my podcast, my first episode, I had a woman of a PhD, world-renowned protein restriction expert on to have this conversation about autophagy. And what, what shocked me is that actually autophagy is very easy to implement, whether it's, you know, you could implement it in a day, right. And it doesn't need to be thought of as this daily thing. Oh, see, like I, maybe I had this backwards because my thought was always like,

oh, I want, okay. So as a, as part of the conversation of longevity, meaning health lifespan, that I want, I want to be great at this. I want to clean out the toxins, right? Like on a regular basis and not do it just once a month house cleaning. So did I have that wrong? Um, I think you bring up a really good point and And I would say the best thing would be really keeping calories in check. And the next thing to that is what is longevity defined as? So is longevity defined as six hours longer, six months longer? What are we thinking about? And in my mind, when we talk about longevity- I'm actually not interested in longer. Yeah, I'm more interested in like vitality for as long as I possibly can.

But what do you, okay, are you ready? What does that mean to you? And I'm gonna put a word in here. I'm gonna just like insert myself into this. To me, that means being functionally capable, strong, activities of daily living, able to balance, able to lift things up, able to be cognitively fit. We're on it. You and I are on it.

Do you know what that, and do you know what is a direct correlation to that? Wait, hold on. Hold on. Could it be? It is, isn't it? Muscle, tissue, organ health so do you see what's happening right now is that we have these conversations about longevity and the driver of longevity that people are talking about is protein restriction now with everything that we are talking about can you see where that is doing a tremendous amount of harm to the the people in middle. So the way and the time that you protect your muscle is now, right? 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s. Doesn't get easier. That tissue is, you know, listen, it's not easier to get jacked and tan. It becomes more difficult. So if the message midlife is we are doing these practices for longevity, then those practices need to be about optimizing skeletal

muscle, not living six months longer, frail in a nursing home. Yeah, there you go. Okay. So, so then of course, correct me on this. Let's say I've got 35, 40 grams, 30 grams of protein on a meal and I'm, and I'm adding amino acids to it. Does that take it up to plus 10? Like, well, it takes it up. Yes. In a way that it really is about leucine and at 30 grams of meal, you're getting about two and a half grams of leucine. What a bot, and that's the minimum amount you probably would do better at three, three and a half grams of leucine. So by adding in another, you know, five grams total of branched chain amino acids, you raise that, that protein threshold.

Okay. Simple as that. Simple as that. Okay. All right. This is awesome. And so then, so it's the clear takeaway, again, is invest in your muscle organ tissue. And then one way to do that is protein optimization. And it feels like there's some competing principles about autophagy, muscle health, protein, and intermittent fasting. It feels like there's some competing interests here. And what you're saying is like first order business. Yeah.

Restricted, restricted feeding time or eating time is cool. As long as you can get in a pound per body weight, ideal body weight. And you, one way to do that is to have consistency over protein and then potentially add aminos. So let's talk about some of the things that are controversial. Like what are the most controversial things that you say about nutrition that just get people lit up? I'll give you the first pass at it. Okay. This is really funny. So I've been doing this 20 years. And again, I was, and I'm currently trained and mentored by one of the world-leading protein experts a decade ago, it was not controversial. So this is this huge push between the anti-animal narrative and animal-based proteins that you have to understand that never existed, right? This was

not a conversation, um, quality of protein. These are hard, fast biological values. Nobody argued about this. Um, and the reason I started being so vocal is because I was so taken it back by the scapegoat of animal-based proteins when, you know, I'm a trained geriatrician, which means I'm trained in taking care of individuals later on in life. And I was just looking at all this information that is being fed to our youth, that is being fed to kind of the people in the middle trying to do the right thing about how they should restrict protein and go plant-based. And I felt like it was really that there are unintended consequences for this advice. So, you know, you know, in my family, if you have a capacity to change something or you have the

ability to do it, it's your responsibility. I mean, frankly, I would love to be doing other things, right? Maybe you want to, who knows, talk about something else. But again, I feel very much a responsibility to humanity to at least open the eyes to the conversation. Okay. And right underneath that is when you start talking about you need to eat animal-based protein, your community starts to get lit up. They could not, right? They could eat plant-based proteins. But again, if we're talking about whole foods, which I believe in a whole food diet, I think it becomes very difficult to eat enough tofu to meet your protein needs. Can you

do it? Totally. Do I think that that's probably the best strategy? If we're talking about whole foods, I think you're going to have a really hard time getting iron. I think you're going to have a really hard time getting creatine for muscle health, taurine and serine. I think that things are going to be difficult. Okay. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day. And Cozy Earth has become a new part of that.

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They've got some great new products I think you'll be interested in. A shampoo, conditioner, and a hair serum. With Caldera Lab, it's not about adding more. It's about choosing better. And when your day demands clarity and energy and presence, the way you prepare for it matters. If you're looking for high quality personal care products that elevate your routine without complicating it, I'd love for you to check them out. Head to calderalab.com slash finding mastery and use the code finding mastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash finding mastery. So help me, help me navigate this path a bit. I'm, I don't know, six years I was a vegan. I was not healthy. This was in 1989 and there was no

whole foods. There was none of that. It was really hard. And so I did it for compassion. I did it for philosophical reasons and I was lifting a lot. Fitness was important and it, it just, I don't think I was healthy. Okay. So I figured out a different path. And then two years ago, maybe four years ago, Dr. Melanie Joy came on the podcast and she's like, she made a point. She's like, you have a dog? I was like, yeah. You pet your dog? Yeah.

Would you pet a cow? I was like, yeah, they're cute. Why don't you eat your dog then? I'm oversimplifying a very smart woman's approach. And I was like, oh, yeah. What am I doing? So it re-triggered an examination for me to go back and I'm no longer eating since then. It was like four years.

I'm not eating four legged animals. And I think there's something about that that's important to me right now. And I really don't want to eat chicken. You know, like there's something about it that I'm not vibing, but I am eating it right now and I'm definitely eating fish. And so there's some compromises that I now and I'm definitely eating fish. And so I, there's some compromises that I'm sure I'm missing. And so how would you help thread that? So I think one of the, the, the first things is to appreciate what you're saying. And I think if someone feels that way,

then they are absolutely, you know, entitled to feel that way. And that should be respected first and foremost. Um, and for those philosophical reasons, you know, it's now about how do we navigate a nutrition plan that provides you with everything that you need, right. As opposed to someone saying animal-based products are not good for me. They're not good for the planet, like all these other things, which perhaps I don't agree with. But for someone who is having these philosophical experiences, making sure you're like, I would supplement you with creatine. You're not getting creatine.

So I was, and I popped on a blood test with like high creatinine. Is that how I said it? But if you have high muscle mass, then you'll have a high creatinine is that how I see but if you have high muscle mass then you'll have a high yeah yeah right creatinine yeah so um at first pass the the medical providers were like oh God you shouldn't and then when I started when I talked to a few folks like yourself that understand that they're like yeah it's not a big deal of course you're gonna of course that's gonna pop so I should probably get back on that I haven't made that connection or haven't kind of gone back and then the other thing is i i never look at uh creatinine um i mean i look at it we get a cystatin c to actually look at a corrected

kidney function so yeah you have to get a corrected gfr um okay and and that's really important for an astute provider if you have any physicians listening to just look at the, the creatinine ratio is not, you know, you have to look at cystatin C. Um, so omegas, omega threes are very important. You are eating fish. So obviously I supplement that as well. I, I, on my, like I do every six months to a year, a full kind of performance panel, if you will. Perfect. And yeah, for some reason I don't quite metabolize properly. So I do need to supplement that. Perfect. And then iron, you know, making sure your iron and ferritin stores are good. I think it's very important, you know, and the, you know, the other thing that I recommend is

vitamin D, which is, you know, just, and again, checking levels. So those were the things that I would do. And then for you specifically, um, you know, a good multivitamin, making sure you're getting enough choline for brain function, B vitamins are also really important. All of which you can assess, right. You can take a look at that in blood work. Um, and then if you are not training a lot, you know, you just want to make sure that your carbohydrates are in check. So how do you recommend, I'm not eating chicken breast for breakfast. How would you stack if somebody has, you know, some limited animal proteins and I'm not eating salmon for breakfast either, you know, or I don't, yeah, too many eggs probably. So, so I do, I definitely eat eggs. What else do you suggest are good? So, I mean, it, again,

it depends on your activity level, but the plant-based protein, well, I mean, so then you have a great flexibility for your carbohydrate ingestion. So with some of the, you know, tofu and soy. Wait, we agreed. I got to get like 50 pounds in or 50, 50 grams in. So how am I going to get 50 grams in a breakfast? I mean, quite frankly, eggs and a protein shake. Will you debunk that myth that egg whites are not as good as whole eggs? No. I mean, just, if we think about this logically,

you need things in its entirety. Entirety. Right? So each egg is six grams, right? Yolk plus six grams. So I need 10. You could get away with two or three eggs, which would put you two or three eggs in a protein shake. It'd be great. Yeah. That's what I'm doing actually. Easy. Throw a scoop of cream in there. You're good. I've been craving interestingly enough, um, Greek yogurt. I used to think it's the grossest thing that anyone would ever like eat. And then for some odd reason, um, and I think I mean, you've got to get your calcium. Where are you getting your calcium? Yeah. I mean, I guess you could get it through the, you know, process, you know,

through greens, cooking greens, but how much are you going to be getting you know so this you know what happened i like i said i thought it was really gross and then i had a um i had a staph infection i went to the i went to have my annual checkup for my i grew up surfing so make sure like no moles are out of place right and do my annual checkup and i had this little cut on my arm and i didn't pay attention to it and i came back and it was just really stingy and itchy that night. And I looked at it the next morning and it was like, Oh God, I got staph infection. And so I had, I had to take a course at antibiotics, which I'm not a fan of. And so this is, this is a long way to get to like antibiotics will save your life, life maybe at some point because there's some stuff that we need to do but it's it wreaks havoc wreaks havoc on um the body gut biome in

particular so what do you do for folks that need to post surgery post something where they're on an antibiotic and that's where this craving for greek yogurt came from you know so i didn't know if i should supplement probiotics while I was taking the antibiotics. So I didn't, I just waited until I was done with the antibiotics. But can you, can you sharpen up what to do if folks have to get on the course of antibiotics? So I was, I had a really, really, I have a really great friend and she actually runs the Cedars-Sinai Microbiome Institute. And we were having a conversation.

And one of the things that we were talking about is this whole probiotic prebiotic kind of conversation. And one of the things that we were talking about is it's really in the prebiotic, the fermentation that can be very beneficial. And it's not just the prebiotics, but it's what the bacteria utilizes to actually create a healthy milieu, a healthy gut milieu. So for me, we supplement it in my clinic, prebiotic, whether it's prebiotic fibers, kombucha, fermented foods to actually help the gut microbiome generate what it needs. Okay. Talk about wine for a minute.

Actually, if you are a post-menopausal woman, you are on the wine diet. You need to stop. If you are worried about your weight, the alcohol consumption is something that I see so much of in that perimenopausal space where women are struggling to sleep. Don't do it. So anyway. Yeah. Certainly on sleep, but other health factors as well. Alcohol in general. Do you have thoughts? Yeah. I don't recommend it. Again, I feel like it affects cognitive reserve and that's the brain capacity I come from. The side of geriatrics where people will say, okay, one of the things that we looked at for brain aging and brain health was if individuals were drinking. And typically we would have them

very much limit alcohol consumption. Okay. Very cool. One kind of last little interesting question from Carrie Walsh Jennings, who we mentioned at the top of the podcast, is she knows that you work with some of the most extraordinary folks in the world, special operators being included. Obviously, you're married to one as well. Just some thoughts of your observations about how they organize their life, like the spirit behind those that sacrifice everything for a purpose? Well, there's two things there. Number one, there is a focus and commitment on like

anything I've ever seen. And that, you know, I take care of CEOs and people that are really moving the needle in the world. And there is a commitment and focus and self-reflection that I've never seen. I mean, it's tremendous, number one. Number two, actually, I'll give you three things. Their capacity for suffering is very, very, very high, yet not internalized as suffering. And then the third thing is they're all incredibly aware of their weaknesses. Those are really cool takeaways. Those are really cool takeaways. Would you substitute pain for suffering in the first part of the middle insight is that they can handle high volumes of pain, but they don't internalize it to make it suffering?

So I think that the pain doesn't needs to be accomplished and this individual is driving forward, you know, working, you know, all hours of the day, highly focused, four hours of sleep and going, you know, no complaints going after suffering, but for that individual, the, the mission and the, uh, why behind the execution is so strong that it diminishes that, uh, internal suffering. It's not even, it's so tightly controlled, right? There is no narrative about what is happening. And that's profound. So you have a deeper connection to the special teams and operators. That insight was shared to me by an operator. And the way that I internalized it was when purpose is bigger than pain, purpose wins. But when pain is bigger than purpose, pain wins. And so it's up to us to figure out a large purpose. Then by default, we will be able to manage, deal with, tolerate, even embrace great levels of pain. And then

just in just a recent episode, we had Dr. Rachel Zoffness on and she hit on exactly what you just talked about, which is her insight was that there is no such thing as a separation between physical and emotional pain. All pain is physical and emotional, which is a really cool insight. Yeah, Interesting. Okay. So if I wanted to spend time with you professionally and, or any of our community members wanted to be able to do that, it feels like it would be a hundred thousand dollars to get in your door, you know? And I think, yeah, of course not. But like, but that would be because of your expertise and your fluidity here. How would somebody be able to work with you? Like, what are the steps to be able to do that? So they would apply. So if you know them personally, you could always vet them for me and make the recommendation, or they can always apply to be a patient on my website. That's obviously

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon, very active on Instagram. Again, Dr. Gabrielle Lyon, I have a new show, which is shocking, the Dr. Gabrielle Lyon. I have a new show, which is shocking. The Dr. Gabrielle Lyon show. I only did that so people could find me, uh, where we have very transparent conversations and the show is the podcast, the video based podcast. It's both, sorry. It's YouTube and, um, you know, Spotify, Apple it's audio and video doc. Thank you. Um, uh, it's audio and video. Doc, thank you. I'm grateful for Carrie putting us together. And I am going to challenge our community to get engaged with your insights, your practices, and maybe potentially become a patient. Is there a last takeaway?

One or two, three things, even just one to sum it up, tie it up like takeaways that you would hope people could pay attention to and do more frequently. Yeah. So number one, muscle is the organ of longevity and we can move the needle in a positive manner by having a muscle centric approach is really having a capable approach to all domains of life. Number one, we talked about resistance training. We talked about physical activity, talk about dietary protein, regardless of whatever camp you are into, whether it's animal based or whether it is plant based, the concept of protein should not be divisive. So that's that, that is the muscle centric approach. The second part to that is if you care about your business, your health, family, you must be aware of your weaknesses.

The most successful people that I take care of, which they are incredible. They are all aware of their weaknesses. They leverage those weaknesses to become strengths. Yeah. Okay. Beautiful. What a testament to your approach to life, your philosophy, your love for helping others and your intimate loved ones. So doc, thank you. And I hope that our paths cross. Me too. Thank you so much for your time. All the best. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're listening. Also, if you haven't

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