Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Executive John Nordstrom on Building Corporate Culture, Relationships, Authenticity

Episode Date: September 6, 2017

This conversation is with John Nordstrom -- of the Nordstrom high-quality fashion retailer in the US -- whose history has gone from a small shoe store, to having over 350 large luxury department stores -- to being publicly traded on the NYSE -- to being in the middle of a potential family buy back.This conversation is about a man who cares for his family and cares for his customers. It's authentic and it's one of the reasons the Nordstrom company has been successful.In this conversation, we talk about the steps Nordstrom took in growing the business. John takes us through the history of their expansion and how customer service came to be their number one priority.We also discuss how to create a culture of trust within a company and how to inspire others to be just a little bit better every day.We touch on the parallels between running Nordstrom and a professional sports team (he and his family brought the Seahawks to Seattle in the 1970s) and the factors that ultimately lead to running a successful organization._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash findingmastery. Now, this conversation is with John Nordstrom of the Nordstrom High Quality Fashion Retailer, primarily based in the United States, and whose history has gone from a small shoe store up in Seattle, Washington, to having over 350 large luxury department stores, to being publicly traded on the New York Stock Exchange, and to right now being in the middle of a potential family buyback. It's a phenomenal story of literally principle-based growth that they captured an opportunity and they did right by the way that they conducted their business. Now, this conversation is about a man who cares

about others, period. He cares for his family. He cares for his customers. He cares for business. And it's authentic. It just oozes out of John. And it's one of the reasons the Nordstrom family business, the Nordstrom company, has been so successful. Flat out, very clear, authentic caring. And through this conversation, it becomes super clear how both durable leadership and durable relationships between people require an alignment with consistency. And what that means is that when we're really clear about what we stand for, and then we build the mental skills to be able to weather the storms, whatever those storms might be, emotional storms mostly, that it's that consistency and that authenticity that allows people to be able to play the long game. And that ends up building an incredible amount

of trust for other people. And so again, this conversation for me really is about how durable leadership can be and how durable relationships can be when people are authentic and they do the work to be aligned with their authentic self for the long haul. And in this conversation, we talk about the steps that they, the family business, took in growing the business. And John takes us through the entire history of Nordstrom expansion and how customer service came to be their number one priority. And it makes sense when through this conversation, it'll just make sense how that's just not a slogan that was slapped on a wall. It sounds nice, but how that authenticity runs throughout every part of the Nordstrom experience for customers. And we also discuss how to create a culture of trust within a company

and how to inspire others to be just a little bit better each and every day. And we also touch on the parallels between running Nordstrom's, the business, and a professional sports franchise. And he and his family brought the Seattle Seahawks to Seattle. And Seattle Seahawks is one of the NFL franchises in America. And they were responsible to bring the franchise up to Seattle in the 1970s. And so he touches on the factors that ultimately led to them being able to run successful organizations more than just the one that many people are familiar with. So John, flat out, is a beacon for genuine caring of others. That's it. It's so

simple and it's so true. And I just hope this conversation does his very soft-shoed and principle-based character. I hope this conversation does it justice because it's a joy to know John. It's a joy to see other people have a genuine caring and respect for John and how it's just a wonderful man that has done incredible good for all the lives that he touches. So with that, let's jump right into this conversation with John Nordstrom. John, how are you? It was a great day today at practice. Wasn't it? So bring us into your history with the Seahawks as a former owner, but probably some sort of supporter or fan before that. So bring us into your history,

because you've got a storied history here. I couldn't do that without starting in our stores. Okay. Because as a retail executive, quote executive, I guess i was an executive my job as well as buying pretty merchandise and good merchandise quality merchandise was to manage a a large staff so that they would they would naturally respond to customers the way we wanted them to. And to do that, we decided, my brother and my cousin and myself, early on we were besieged by people that wanted to sell us a training program for salespeople because that's the way all the retailers did it. They had a set guidebook, and it was fairly thick. And, of course, we realized the employees never read it. We would operate our company strictly for the customer. And we wouldn't talk about profit.

We would talk about sales because that's the way the stores like to compete, who had the best sales. And they like that. But frankly, a person working on the sales floor doesn't really understand profit, never will. And we didn't want them to. We started, this was quite a ways back, talking only about customer service. So when we talked to our salespeople, we never talked in a group, we never talked about anything negative. Okay, so what years are we talking about? Maybe I was, now I'm 80, so this was when I was mid-20s. Okay, and so you're running Nordstrom's, and how many stores are there at that point?

At that point, when I first started, we were only shoes. Okay. And we bought a ladies' apparel store. And when I was like 25, my dad and his two brothers decided that I would be the guy to add menswear to the company. Because you were fashionable? No. Actually, what I was, I was a men's shoe guy. Okay, uni shoes. Yeah, I ran the men's shoe division. So they said, well, you've also got

the menswear division, which of course would become quite a bit bigger than any of the shoe division. So I started from scratch. What did you do for training for that? Sold shoes. It's easy to laugh at that, but I worked on the sales floor. So you cut your teeth on the floor figuring out how to move merchandise. Figuring out how to make customers happy. See, look, you got me there. Yeah, okay. Moving merchandise was secondary. The main thing how to make customers happy. See, look, you got me there. Yeah, okay. Moving merchandise was secondary.

The main thing was keeping the customer happy. By a long way. Yeah, how did you approach that? I heard you say the positivity piece. Well, what a customer wants, they only care about if you have what they want. If you have the merchandise they want. It's not about selling them something else or padding the sale or selling them stuff they don't want. It's making sure that they get what they want. I walked into one of your stores, I don't know, maybe a couple months ago. I was in a pinch and your store was open relatively late.

I don't know, it's your store was open relatively late. Um, I don't know. It's 10, 10 o'clock. Yeah. Yeah. And so I was in a pinch. I needed a shirt and I know that you've got high quality shirts. And so I ran in and I felt like I was almost like I was almost breaking a sweat. I was in such a rush and a gal greeted me with a smile. She saw that I was in a rush and she said, what can I do for you?

I said, I need a shirt and I need it quickly. And she said, no problem. And so she said, what color do you want? I said, just plain white. I just need a plain white shirt. And she brought me out 14 different types of plain white shirts. She helped me fit it up in just the right way. She like, it was amazing, the customer service. So your legacy from early twenties now to eights that you've built as a model for your program was at Play two months ago. Well, thank you. And today I think we'd have like 60,000 employees. So to have salespeople feel like that sales lady felt with you is something that you can go to sleep at night and think, yeah, they're not trying to take advantage of the customer.

They only want to take care of the customer. And I had a sense that she was okay if I didn't buy anything. Oh, yeah. She worked hard. Oh, yeah. To find a shirt that fit right. The main thing she wanted you to be was happy. Okay.

So that's what you're teaching. Help them. Well, we don't actually teach it. See, that almost has to be a sixth sense. And the only way they get that is they've got to trust us. And if they trust that we're not going to change our direction, say this year we're going to do customer service, next year we're going to do selling more merchandise, Or we're going to do add-on sales next year. Or we're going to do something different next year. No. Every single year I would go to the first meeting in each of our stores and I'd say, can anybody out there, anybody, any of you,

there are two, three, four hundred of them, sales people and department managers, can you guess what our number one goal is going to be next, this coming year? Can anybody guess? And, of course, when we were way back, we'd get funny guesses. And then as time went on, and they knew it was coming. Now you say that, and you get 300 hands in the air. And the goal is only one thing. I said, you guys are really good at customer service now, today.

But I said, if we can get, and I hold up my fingers like this, so if you could just get just a little tiny bit better next year, just a, I said, do you think you can do that? All the hands go up. Yeah, all the hands go up. So we're not asking them to make big leaps and big changes and go from four wins to 12 wins or any of that. We want to get a little bit better next year. And they eat it up.

They just eat it up. So what is the phrase? It wasn't customer satisfaction. It is customer service. Only customer service. And the service is to help, is to make them. The main thing is to get the merchandise they want. Yeah, okay.

That isn't by, and that's our job. And I say, if we don't do our thing is to get the merchandise they want yeah okay that isn't by and that's our job and i say if we don't do our job and get you the merchandise boy you get after us and you get it with a baseball bat you come after us and don't be shy you say that to the customers okay all right and then and then you're working on marginal gains so the message is clear well it turns out to be not marginal no yeah no no no sorry i don't mean in your profit structure and then you're working on marginal gains. So the message is clear and it's consistent. It turns out to be not marginal. No, no, no, sorry. I don't mean in your profit structure.

I mean in your approach to getting better. You just hold up your fingers in its lightest way. That's a joke because they think they can get a lot better. So I'm just asking them. Just to get a little bit better. Do you really think you can get a little? Oh, yeah, we can do that yeah you're not asking to do something that's that looks like oh that's going to be hard no we don't want you to do anything hard we just want you to get just a teeny tiny bit better very cool okay so you went from shoe division to men's clothing i kept i kept

kept the shoe division so now I'm running menswear. And we start from scratch. How did you know what to do next? I got on an airplane and I went all over the country to department stores, specialty stores, and menswear stores. And looked at them and I said, what do we want to look like? And I came home and I said, that's what we're gonna be and I never I never wavered and then I came home and I talked to my gang of buyers and merchandisers I said you guys agree this is the way we should look and of course the guys I'd hired all I think had had

that same feeling I did and we wanted to have a look and we never varied. I said, we don't want fashion in menswear. At that point, they didn't want fashion. They wanted aces, straights, and flushes. They wanted to look a certain way and they didn't want to look like they were dressing for fashion. When you went and traveled for your education right to to learn what it is that the vision or the style of of your division that you're building did you go with people no by myself you went by yourself are you an introvert i don't even know

yeah so introvert is i gather energy from listening from from reflecting i'm not sure about that i just an observer okay and you wanted to do it by yourself rather than your ideas i would i would talk to the owners of these places and i'd say don't tell me what you sell yeah okay tell me what your customers want what they want okay that was your number one question. Oh yeah. And what sells? What sells? What? Did you pick up at that point when you're traveling customer service or was that before?

Well, that was, that was really before. And where did that idea come from? Oh, that was in a smaller version. That's what we started out as a shoe store. Yeah. Okay. So grandpa and my dad and his brothers, they were really into customer service, but not like we were.

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Clean, clear, no funky color distortion. Just good design, great science. And if you're ready to feel the difference for yourself, Felix Gray is offering all Finding Mastery listeners 20% off. Just head to FelixGray.com and use the code FindingMastery20 at checkout. Again, that's Felix Gray. You spell it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com and use the code FindingMastery20 at FelixGray.com for 20% off. Okay. Brilliant. And then, so you came back, you modeled it. You said, this is how I want to do it. You rolled out the first store in men's clothing. Yep. Which was, was that up here in Seattle area? Yep. First one was, believe it or not, coma mall. Okay. Second one was Bellevue. Okay one was south center okay what is the flagship across

the world the nordstrom flagship probably downtown seattle that's the one yeah but bellevue is pretty close yeah it is it's yeah that's the one i ran into the other day well bellevue and downtown and michigan avenue and chicago vancouver. Okay. And then how many stores total? 134. 134 stores, 60,000 employees. Goodness. Okay. And internationally, obviously, you just mentioned. Canada is the only place we've been. Across the border, yeah. Was there a reason for that?

Yeah. We've been looking at it for years it's a difficult place to do the kind of business we do because several reasons uh i'm not sure i want to get into all that stuff they're mainly the way they they don't let you bring in employees to work on their sales floor. You can bring in a manager and two assistants, and everybody else has to be hired, has to be Canadian. Okay, so it's a different structure. So what you're doing, you're very careful who you hire in that new Canadian store.

We've been pretty darn successful in coming up with new hires. You want to hear about that? Yeah, for sure. This is development at home. Well, development is a little different. Okay. We interviewed salespeople. We'd never interview one-on-one.

We'd interview groups of 6, 8, 9, 10, 11 people that wanted to go to work for us. And here, this sounds crazy, but we'd have one of our top managers kind of sit on a table like this, and they'd be kind of gathered around, and they'd start talking about customer service. And then we had one of our personnel people sit behind that manager and watch the faces. and when they start talking about customer service if someone looks like if someone is a candidate they their eyes light up yeah they can hardly wait they wanted to they want to say something the ones that don't get it stone face no reaction roll their eyes i mean just sit there yeah and the ones that sit there so you're looking for literally non-conscious responses to

the word customer service oh yeah and they come they're they don't come in age. They don't come with work background. They don't come with sex. They don't come with color. They don't come. You just don't know. You're sitting there with 12 people, and they're all. And some of the ones you never thought would respond, I think they just can hardly wait to take care of customers.

What do you think about this phrase? People will tell you who they are all the time. You just need to pay attention. Well, no question about that. A couple times, I would actually sit where they couldn't see me and watch. It was so easy. What would the manager say? Was there a phrase that they would... We just talk about, you know, this company were built on customer service and we just, you just can't believe the kind of stuff our people do. And we don't tell them, we don't train them. We want the lights to work, the cash registers to work. We want the displays to be, everything work. So all they have to, that's all in good shape. All they have to think about is

customers, customers. And they keep a record of their customers and what they sell to them and what they like. This customer likes gray suits and they don't like pleats on their pants. They like pleats on their pants and they like suspenders and no belt and da-da-da-da-da-da. And then when the merchandise would come in that was kind of in that category, they'd call them up. Bang! They'd get about a 50% response or more from the customer. You were doing basically like handheld machine learning. Oh, yeah. It's essentially what all the digital.

Initially, they did all this manually. Oh, my God. With a notebook. Okay, so where did that idea come from? From them. It did. Our idea was whatever you want to do, you do it. Don't worry about us. If you want a notebook, we'll get you a notebook. If you want

this, we'll get it. But you guys come up with it. Don't depend on us for anything. Got it. Okay. Alright, so then, what's been the secret sauce to the growth that you've had? So the base and the philosophy was customer service. The organizational philosophy was let's make sure that everything is intact, cash register, merchandise, everything is there so that customer service can shine. So they're not distracted. Yeah. And then what was the success of the amplification?

We had no growth strategy. You didn't? No. So how did you amplification? We had no growth strategy. You didn't? No. So how would you do it? We were lucky. We were very, very lucky. We got started at the beginning of the, I'll go back a little further, the freeway interstate freeway system was starting to be completed in the early 50s. And every as the freeway went

tearing through and there'd be a highway cutting across and of course these smart developers would go in there and buy these huge pieces of flat land and that's where the shopping centers all started north gates 110th and I-5. That was pasture land when I was a kid, and there was cows on it. Where Northgate is. That was the second shopping center in the United States. Something like that. You guys didn't buy real estate.

Oh, no. You weren't on that part of the equation. I'll make it simple for you. Sure. I'll make it simple for you. Sure. I need that. Because we ran the business the way we did, we were in demand from developers. They would do four corners in a shopping center. They'd do a Macy's in one end. They'd do a Penny over here. They'd do a Sears over here. And then we would be on the other end. Well, customers didn't go to the center for Macy's or Sears or Penny's usually. They came to the center because of us. And the minute they had us, they could lease all those mall

shops to high rent tenants. They all wanted to be up near our store because that's where the foot traffic was. So the first few years we actually were tenants. They'd build the building and we'd rent it and operate the store. Then after a while, as they started coming after us, I thought, this isn't working well. So we would have the landlords compete against each other for us how much money they were going to give us to come into their center. And then very quickly. Is that a signing bonus? how much money they were going to give us to come into their center. Okay.

And then very quickly. Is that a signing bonus? Much more than a signing bonus. The stores, the investment in the store was, I'm going to say, between $30 and $40 million early on, and they would give us between 30 and 40 million cash john i love this i'll tell you why i love this job is because you started humble beginnings one store selling shoes now i don't know the resources of your family like if they had if you had uh wealth that could support the growth no wealth wealth. No wealth. Okay, so one store, family business.

You traveled the world out of curiosity of what good looked like. You intuitively found it. It resonated in your body. And then you went and shared that vision with others. And then you were so simple with the idea, let's take care of the customers. Let's do good and do right by them.

And then it will work. That made us that made us much more attractive to the to the to the shopping center developers well is were they attracted because you were an attractive business from a profit center they didn't care if you were going to sell no they knew here's the deal uh see if i can make this simple. They would invest probably in the land, all the roads, the improvements, the sewers, everything. They might invest like in the center, like a south center, they'd invest. Now remember, the dollar was a little different. They'd probably invest $140 to $150 million in it. They'd give us $40, so then they got $200 in it.

My goodness. They would open the center, and it would be worth $300 million because we were there. When they did it without us, they weren't worth that because the mall shops would generate so much more volume. Okay. Phenomenal model, right, is that the landowner is going to pick up 100% or near 100% of what it would cost to open a store. And then you would pay monthly rent.

No, we didn't pay any rent. Come on, John. No. Seriously. We would pay some common area charges you were so good that they would pay you to come and they pay you to stay there part of their investment was getting us and then they we had we had to agree to operate for 15 years as a huge stay so that they could maybe sell one day well they would and they would trade these shopping centers around oh they would okay oh. Okay. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Okay.

That is great. So you called that lucky. I call it skill. Oh, it's total luck. I call it skill. Because it was the beginning of the shop. Oh, it's total luck. All over the country, these developers were building shopping centers.

And they had to have people. They would either have sacks, demons, or ourselves. That was about it. Have you heard the definition of success that um when preparation meets opportunity sort of something like that yeah it sounds like you were prepared well we weren't prepared we were just we're just we're just trying to have increases every day and these shopping center guys would drive us nuts every single monday they'd they'd come in and we'd meet with them every single Monday. So then you would have to spin up this new division on how to drop stores into places all over the country. Well, we had a store planning department, but we did all the planning.

We put all the departments in and set the store up and made sure it worked. Okay. I love that. Okay. And is that how big retail shops are still run today, the successful ones, yours or others? Ours is. I'm sure the others are very centrally located and very financially oriented. We're not financially oriented. We never were.

Yeah. Okay, brilliant. Now, so then, how does that migrate into your interest in the Seattle Seahawks? Well, you know that we kind of bought it by accident because of the baseball. Yeah, yeah. The baseball team, we wanted to buy the, my uncle and his five partners wanted to buy the baseball team. And then, of course course Danny Kaye and his guys came in and got ahead of them. So they said, we're all together, let's go ahead and see if we, we know the NFL's coming, let's see if we can get it.

So we did and there were five or six really pretty good groups that were interested in the Seahawks. But Dan Rooney was the head of the committee and he definitely wanted us. Is there a reason? He kind of liked the family aspect of it rather than the big business aspect of it. So there's two really successful organizations that you've been part of. Seahawks, obviously one of them, and Nordstrom's the first. So what you just described is that other people wanted to do business with you, whether it was Rooney or the real estate developers.

Yes, they, yep. They wanted to. Well, I think what they were afraid of is that if you buy an NFL team and the value starts to go north pretty fast, it's tempting to unload it. And they wanted a group that would have, because we were from here, hang on to it. Not to be the least bit interested in selling it. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day. And Cozy Earth has become a new part of that. Their bedding, it's incredibly soft, like next level soft. And what surprised me the most

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the way you prepare for it matters. If you're looking for high-quality personal care products that elevate your routine without complicating it, I'd love for you to check them out. Head to calderalab.com slash finding mastery and use the code finding mastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash finding mastery. Okay. What is most important to you as a man? That people think that I'm trying to be supportive and not take advantage of anybody. Okay. So being there as a support mechanism, where's the take advantage piece where's that

come from um to not want to take not want to be perceived as being it's just it's terrible to say but i've always had a negative response to the uh in, you're probably one of these Ivy League, NBA doctorate type. Not even close. No, no, no. And all they want to do is be important. Wait a minute. Is this like an embedded jab at me?

No, it isn't. You're a smart guy. Thank you, thank you. I've really never wanted to be important. Wow, that's wild. Because on the sidelines I watch, you're such a magnet to people to want to come to you, even on the sidelines, and say, Mr. Nordstrom, how are you? What I try to do with these players is anything I say to them, I want to make sure it makes them feel better about Seahawks and better mainly about themselves.

Okay. So here's the – it's obvious. It's jumping out in this conversation that the threat is you regard for other people's experience has carried you through wild successes both in business, in sports, and relationships. It's actually selfish. Because it feels good. Because it works. I don't have to do anything. Except care about others.

When I was working in the store, I didn't have to do anything because these salespeople and managers did the whole thing. Okay. Are you able to see what doesn't work? Oh, sure. Okay. And then do you ignore that or do you try? Oh, I make sure we don't let that happen. Okay.

And then when something's not going well and you've instructed somebody or given them them advice advice or whatever it is i don't give advice okay good because i i don't either i don't think that that's yeah i know it's a no-no yeah i love that i don't give my kids advice no i i haven't heard anyone else say that i i'm people assume that i give advice because of my training and i think it's the most condescending um abrasive thing that we can do for another person. Oh, it's so counterproductive. Where does that come from for you? My dad.

He used to give you advice or not give you advice. He never gave me any advice, ever. And how did he think about advice giving? Oh, I'm sure he thought it was ridiculous. Yeah, because we haven't lived in another person's shoes. So how could we begin to know what's right for them? Oh, it's even worse than that. Oh.

It takes them away from what they're naturally good at and gets them doing stuff that they're, oh, I just, it really turns me off. I love that. I really love that. That isn't celebrated enough. That is really wonderful. And this is, so the reaction you're having, that cringing reaction you're having, I have with particular folks in the field of psychology or mental wellness or even physical development that are constantly shouting advice at other people or encouraging them to do this or do that. Gosh, it doesn't work.

Short-term, maybe. No, it never worked short-term. Not even short-term, you'd say? Never gave my kids advice, ever. So how would you parent? Like, what was your parenting style or approach? You can do anything. No limit.

But I'm not going to decide that i'm not gonna i'm not even i'm not even going to venture there that's strictly up to you but but boy don't put limits on yourself so how about this how about your son nine years old just happens to be that i have a nine-year-old, and so I'm looking for some parenting advice, wink wink, is that spinning in a chair, and the inclination is to say, Grayson, you're going to fall. And I kind of want him to fall to figure it out, but I also don't want him to bust open his cheekbone. Yeah, so how would you do something like that? Well, you know, if you keep doing that, you might take a tumble and you might get a cut in your head or you might get a

cut down here, but let's, let's just see what happens. Just keep doing it and let's just see if you get the cut. Yeah, there you go. And that's how you go through life with them. Yeah. I love it. Okay. All right. So this is getting super clear for me. And then what was it like for you when you had wild success? Let's say you're at store 90 and it is humming, it's working. I'm assuming it was, maybe it was, that was the worst phase. I don't really know. But when you really felt this professional, unbelievable success, both

financially as well as a sense of reward from the personal relationships you were building, what was that like for you? It was, um, I felt so happy for the people in that store because they were just eating it up. I mean, it was just one right after another, big smiles. You can't help but to talk about other people's joy, right? You can't help it. Your whole model is that. Yeah, but don't give me any credit. You're doing the whole thing.

Yeah. Just give me the credit for getting out of the way. Is there a word or phrase that has guided your life in addition to the idea of caring about others? I'm a huge family man. Okay. I mean, that's everything. And how many people are in your family, your immediate family? My own family, I have three grown children and 11 grandchildren. What was your married life like? 58 years with the same lady. I don't know how she puts up with me, but she does. And how is the relationship now?

Fantastic. How has it changed over the 58 years? It's changed quite a bit because we both had lots to do. I don't know how she raised the kids. It's hard work raising kids. She raised a great family, and then she did a lot of stuff with Children's Orthopedic Hospital and all that kind of stuff. We're not big. We don't want to take a lot of

credit for philanthropy. That also turns me off. People that give all this money and then they want to get up and hear about how great they are for giving all this money. I hate that. How do you finish this phrase? It all comes down to... My family. Is there a habit that you've developed to be a better family man a better service oriented you know caring man well i just listen to him and don't give him advice so that's how you play that's how you play i'm a good listener i think i hope i'm a good listener do you pay attention to the storyline and try to follow that? Do you listen to the emotions? Oh yeah, I think I'm pretty good at picking up

on what their emotion is when they're telling me something. I'm pretty good at that. The feel, I just think I'm okay on that. And then where in your life from all of the success that you've had and the experiences that you've had, how have you created a structure in your life to manage that success? Has it just been easy? Like, I don't think about the money and the stores and the growth like it has anything to do with me.

It's about other people. Or has it ever gotten complicated? It only gets complicated because when I develop a certain, I guess you could say net worth, I just want to make sure that I am, that I handle it well and not, you know, I'm sure I spend a small fraction of what I could, but that's all I want to spend. I don't want to spend anymore. What will you do with whatever money you have left over? It's all going to the kids. Did you say four?

Three kids. Three kids. Will you split it up equally? No, it's going equally. And then? They know that. It's all set. It's all set.

No restrictions? No, no restrictions. No. Yeah. It's all set. No restrictions. No, no restrictions. No. Yeah. I hate the restrictions. No. Yeah. So that's like handing them a baton at full speed.

Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Okay. And they know that. My kids got, we started talking about that when they were 12. And when they were 18, I gave them all their stock. They were all millionaires when they were 18. Did you give all your stock or you gave them a bunch of stock?

Because I'd been giving them stock over the years. Oh, how cool is that? And so when they were 18, they said, here's your stock. It's going to pay this dividend. You do what you want with it. It's all yours. But I coached them all the way up. So when they were 18, they got it.

Is their relationship with money healthy? Oh, yeah. Yeah. And your relationship with money? Real tight. Real tight. So that's a healthy relationship. Oh, yeah.

They're very tight. Yeah. And they don't want to waste any. How do you think about money? Like, what is the purpose? What's the reason? What's the, like, what is your relationship with money? That's a good question.

I frankly don't give it much thought. Okay. I just want to make sure I don't do something stupid. So, okay, when you find challenges in your life, what have you learned about how to be successful in challenging times? Just stay with what I believe. And how would you get more connected to what you believe? That's a good question.

I don't know that. It just happened. Is it a feeling in your body? Is it a thought? Oh, yeah. Is it a combination? Oh, yeah. My brother and my cousin called me kind of a bulldog.

I was a, still am, detail guy. In the stores, I was very, very concerned about details. I wanted all the lights to be, I didn't want any burnt out light bulbs. I didn't want the receiving department to be crowded. I wanted the stock rooms to be organized. You know, I was very detail oriented. Did you ever cross over to the idea that you're a control freak? No, but I knew that the store worked so much better when it wasn't a mess.

Yeah, okay. It's pretty simple. And when was the last time you saw mastery? Somebody doing something or at a masterful level? That was really good. Oh, Pete Carroll. That's slam dunk. It's easy for you. Yeah. Okay. And then, so last kind of heavy question, if you will, is how do you think about or define or articulate the word

mastery? How do you define it? Doing something seamlessly. Keep going. I love it. So it's just... And if you watch Pete, it's just seamless. John, thank you for sharing insights and wisdoms

and being able, wisdoms and wisdom to be able to make the complicated simple and to share how you've organized your thinking and your life efforts to build a story that cares about others. So thank you. Well, you're

certainly welcome. And those were fun questions. I enjoyed getting back to you. I hope it worked. Oh, yeah, it was great. Yeah, for sure. Okay, everyone, thank you for staying tuned. Thank you for being part of this.

You can go and find us on www.findingmastery.net. And there is also a community that I know are going to have lots of questions for John, which is our Finding Mastery tribe. And you can find that on our community page as well. So it was awesome to be with John today. And if you've got questions, send them our way. I'll pass them on to him. And you can also find us on social media at finding mastery for Instagram and at

Michael Gervais for Twitter. And thank you again. If you haven't punched over to iTunes, find minutes on mastery and write a review. It helps us out tremendously. Take care. Bye. all right thank you so much for diving into another episode of finding mastery with us our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you we really appreciate you being part of this community and if you're enjoying the show the easiest no-cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're listening. Also, if you haven't already, please consider dropping us a review

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