Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - External Validation Isn't The Answer | TOMS Founder, Blake Mycoskie

Episode Date: July 29, 2020

This week's conversation is with Blake Mycoskie, a social entrepreneur and the founder of TOMS.Blake started TOMS in 2006 and revolutionized the way companies give back by giving shoes to a child in need for every pair purchased.With all his focus going to TOMS, Blake realized he stopped taking care of himself and was diagnosed with mild depression.With this diagnoses, he began exploring how he could better show up for himself and others and that ultimately led to his newest venture, Madefor, where he’s helping people gain control of their lives.We cover so much in this conversation.Blake shares how he got started in entrepreneurship, what’s been key to his success, and why his initial concept of success proved to be offbase.The external factors, the money, the fame, the status all came with Blake’s business accomplishments but when he got everything he was chasing, he realized it wasn’t what he was actually interested in.My hope is that if you only take one thing from this conversation, it’s that none of us have it all figured out, no matter how successful we may appear on the outside._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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as a young man who's going out into the world, what would it be? And he pulled out a piece of paper and he wrote, the more you give, the more you live. And he handed me the piece of paper and he wrote, the more you give, the more you live. And he handed me the piece of paper.

What's so fascinating is I think had he not planted that seed, Tom's never would have happened. Like I just would have kept on starting businesses to make money. But at some thing, six years after he planted that seed and he had passed away, I just had this feeling of, yeah, the more you give, the more you live. And that event has shaped my career and now pretty much everything I spend my time on. Okay, welcome back or welcome to the Finding Mastery podcast. I'm Michael Gervais and by trade and training, I'm a sport and performance psychologist. So the whole idea behind these conversations, behind this podcast, is to learn from people

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He's a social entrepreneur and the founder of Tom's. Blake started Tom's back in 2006. He just flat out revolutionized the idea of giving back. And so the way that Tom's works is every time somebody buys a shoe, they give a shoe to a child in need. They were the originators of the one-to-one model. Now, with all of his focus going into Tom's and making it special, Blake realized that he wasn't taking care of himself the way that he needed to, and he was eventually diagnosed with mild depression. So with that diagnosis, it sprung up a new idea for him. And he began exploring how he could better show up for himself and others. And that ultimately led him to his newest venture called Made For, where he's helping

people gain control of their lives. And we cover so much in this conversation. Blake shares how he got started in entrepreneurship, what's been his key to success, and why his initial concept of success proved to be off-base. The external factors, the money, the fame, the status, all came with Blake's business accomplishments. But when he got everything he was chasing, he realized it wasn't what he actually was interested in. My hope is that if you only take one thing from this conversation, it's that none of us have it figured out. We're all trying to figure this thing out, no matter how successful on paper it may look to the outside world. We're

all trying to figure this thing out. So with that, let's jump right into this conversation with Blake McCoskey. Blake, how are you? I'm doing fantastic, considering everything that's going on in the world. Yeah, I mean, we are in intense, challenging times, but where in the planet are you? I'm in Baja, Mexico. I'm here with my two kids and my ex-wife, living under the same roof again, which has presented its own challenges, but also has been a beautiful experience. We're still really good friends,

and having everything come to a screeching halt has allowed us to really spend a lot of time with the kids and just going back to why we once got together in the first place. So it's actually, a lot of my friends have asked me, like, gosh, is that really challenging? And I'm like, no, it's actually been really beautiful. And we're lucky that being down in Baja, we're able to get outside and get to the beach and, um, get in the water and stuff like that. So even though we're on lockdown, we,

we have some ability to really connect with nature, which is always important for me. I can hear the nature in the background. Yeah. I got some birds in my little, I have this little tree house that I do my work. And there's a bunch of birds. So you'll hear that. And that's about it. Oh, that's awesome. Okay, cool. What I mean, talk about setting up like a challenge inside of a challenge being with your family in quarantine in a remote place with your ex, like, that's awesome. You know, so what is what's the big challenge that you're presented with right now? Wow, that's a good question. I think the big challenge is to be not living in the future. I think a lot of people and myself included, when you're faced with a challenging situation or something that's uncomfortable, then one way to escape the challenge is to live in the future. Like, oh, when this is

over, I'm going to go on this trip. So I'm going to spend all my days planning this trip. Or I'm going to, you know, think about all the great things I'm going to do this summer. Or, you know, I think that the challenge is actually to sit with where I am right now and realize that this is a really beautiful experience, even though many people are suffering and this is definitely not how I would have chosen to spend, you know, the spring and maybe the summer I'm here now. And there's incredible benefits to being here. I get to spend so much time with my kids. So my, you know, ex-wife and I do kind of week on week off. So now there's no week on week off. I get to see him every day. Um, and I get to take them on adventures and there's no distractions with school or their friends or whatever. Um,

and I also get to like, I think, you know, I'm recently divorced. And so I think one of the things that's really beautiful is that like my ex and I, we went through a really great conscious uncoupling program when we came to the decision to get divorced, but we, we didn't really get to test, like, did it work? Like, can we really be friends? Can we really support each other? You know, because it's so new, but now we have to support each other. We have to be friends. Like, she's watching the kids now, so I can do this podcast. And, you know, I'm going to go, you know, take them this afternoon so she can do a live stream yoga class. And so we're really partners. And so we're kind of testing all the

things that we thought we could do as co-parents and friends, no longer being husband and wife. And we're testing it, you know, for an undefined amount of time. And so it's really, it's been, it's been good. Yeah. So that's actually one of the, you're touching on in an ancillary way. One of the reasons I wanted to talk to you is because you have this ability. You've built a bunch of businesses. Some have worked. Some have worked really well. And you've built these businesses based on an idea and then you execute against it.

And so what you just shared is you had an idea of unconsciously decoupling. Consciously. I'm sorry. You had this idea of consciously decoupling and then now you're testing it. But it's the golden thread, which is you have an idea of how you want to do something or maybe what you want to do. And then you built an ecosystem for that success. Is that fair to say? Yeah, it's interesting. One thing that, you know, some people, you know, might or might not know about my entrepreneur career, I've started six companies, and every single one of them, I had no experience in before I started. So I've been in the laundry business, I've been in the

TV network business, I've obviously been in the shoe business with Tom's. Now I'm in, you know, the business of helping people increase their well-being through learning new habits and practices was made for. And every single one of those things has been I had an idea of something that I thought could be better in the world or better in my life or better for my friends. And I then create a business to make that idea come true and in a sense manifest it. And, you know, with Tom's, it was, you know, I think that, you know, it's really tough that children can't afford shoes and every child deserves a pair of shoes. So my idea was, you know, people who can afford shoes, it would be really nice if they buy a pair. And then at the same time, they help someone who really needs a pair. And that manifested into now over 100 million children getting a pair of

shoes. And with the uncoupling, it's interesting you brought that up because it's not that different than my entrepreneurial things of the past. Like Heather and I realized after, you know, five, six years of lots of couples therapy, lots of retreats, lots of different things to try to find a real harmony in our relationship that we were really good friends, but we just weren't that great of romantic partners or husband and wife. And we, the thing that we cared the most about wasn't necessarily our relationship, but our kids. And we both were deeply committed parents. And so we had this idea that like, let's let's approach divorce very differently. Let's approach it in a way that is very conscious and that really is an uncoupling and a celebration of our marriage, even though it only lasted seven years and not look at it any other way.

And so, like you just said, that was an idea. We very intentionally we read a book by Catherine Woodward. We worked with a coach that took us through the whole process. And then it happened and we did it. And then Corona came. And all of a sudden, we're living separately, like, you know, sharing the kids. Life is good. And then now it's like, nope, we're going to put you together for who knows how many months in a very small house, you know, without any friends,

anyone around and just your kids. And we'll see, did you really uncouple consciously and can, you know, can you thrive the way you want to as co-parents? And we absolutely are thriving. I mean, we have had very few big fights or blowouts. There's no resentment, total support. Like it really is a beautiful execution on an idea as you put it. Yeah. Okay. So I think that what you're capturing right now in this conversation is rare for this reason is that most people, you know, the divorce is heavy and it's, and it's the breaking of the, the future that has not yet happened. I mean, that's the hard part about a divorce is that there's plans and ideas and images about the future. And then we're breaking

that, um, that dream, you know? And so, and it's, it's obviously emotionally, uh, detangling is really hard. So how did you guys go about that? Because you make it sound compassionately sterile, but I don't get it. You know, I but I know it's not sterile. Yeah, no, I mean, I think we just we did. I mean, I really can't, you know, commend the woman that wrote this book conscious uncoupling enough. I mean, she this book is fascinating and the program and she's created because it really makes you focus on yourself through the program first. And so you do a lot of self-reflection and work and really understanding what part in the, you know, in the lack of expectations being met and other things that happened in the relationship that led to the uncoupling that it was, you know, you're responsible for. And so when you come together, you're much, you know, your, your

temperature is very, you know, it's not, it's not high and you're very, I don't know, you're much more conscious, you're much more aware, you're much more compassionate to the other person. And so you're able to talk about the hard things, you know, money, kids, living, future relationships, all the things that can, you know, cause people to get really tense. And you can do it with openness because you've worked on yourself and you've gotten yourself to a state of full acceptance and empathy for the other person and how the relationship was hard on them as well. And so you're not just looking at your own challenges. And so I think in life, that's one of the keys, though, like if we could, you know,

expand the conversation beyond, you know, just uncoupling is like, any situation where you're faced with dealing with someone in a in a confrontational way, or a challenging way, or a difference of opinions, whether it's religion, politics, whatever, the more you can open and really like really soften your belly and your and your and your chest and really open to that that person's experience, then you can really they say, you know, walk a day in someone else's shoes. You know, I think that's really good advice is like really try to feel like it's what to feel them to believe what they believe and to see what they see. You don't have to agree with it.

But if you can feel it, then you can approach any kind of challenging situation, I think, in a state that is much more manageable and to keep much more ease. So one of your superpowers is going to be empathy. One of your crown jewels, right, is going to be empathy. And that's why you eventually started the business that you're most known for, Tom's, right? Because you saw kids walking without shoes. You had an empathetic response. You could feel what it was like. And you said, well, let me use this other thing, which is I know how to start businesses. So let me see if I could figure out a model. And you were disruptive in that nature.

Yeah. I mean, nine years ago. No, sorry. 13 years ago now. What am I thinking? I mean, it was so radical, right? Did you sell it nine years? Is that why you did that? Yeah, I thought it was nice.

It was 13 years ago. But did you sell at nine years? No, I sold four years ago. So I sold on the, yeah, on the ninth year. Yeah, at ninth year. So that's an interesting little thing that you kind of stopped at stopped at the nine year mark but it's actually been 13 right because that's when you sold yeah yeah yeah yeah exactly so in my mind it's that but it's the company's 13 years old um you know it's interesting because i think about you know empathy is, is such an important craft, I think, or skill to hone. It's,

I don't think it's something you're just totally built, you're, you're, you're born with. And I think under being able to, you know, look and see that in the capital structure, you know, capitalism can be great, but it also, uh, can be, you know, not so great. And when I, this was in 2007 and we were having, you know, the big recession and Lehman brothers just crashed and like people were losing their savings. And, and I was just like, I don't know if traditional business really is the answer anymore. Like I had a, and, and, and, and I thought, you know, if, if, if we could build a business differently where we were not only focused on making it profitable, but really having a huge impact on people who need, have real

needs, that would be a more beautiful way to use my entrepreneurial gifts. You know, at that time, I was 29 years old and I started my first company when I was 18. So I'd been doing this for 11 years, even though I was still quite young. And so I knew I had the ability to take an idea, bring it to market, and create some level of success. But that wasn't going to satisfy me anymore just doing it traditionally. And so it was totally radical. I mean, no businesses were giving back in that way back then, 13 years ago. There was no other company doing anything close to a one-for-one model. And I just thought, you know, I want to do this because I think it's a way to challenge, and I've always been someone who likes to challenge conventional

thinking, challenge thinking about what the purpose of business is. Is it really just to maximize profits or is it to create benefit for all the stakeholders, the people who work at the company, the people who can benefit from the company and the people who enjoy the products? And so, you know, it was I always laugh because the name Tom's comes from the word tomorrow because the original name of the company was Tomorrow Shoes. And it was a project for a better tomorrow and we'd even call it a business we called it a project um because we thought you know when you buy a pair and give a pair that will create a better tomorrow and then tomorrow's shoes is too

long for the name on the tag of the shoe so tomorrow's got shortened to tom's and of course people have called me tom in the airport ever since. But but yeah, like that's that really is what motivates me in life is like seeing some, you know, one that is struggling. And in that case, it was children without shoes and needing shoes to go to school and then trying to use my gifts and my resources now to help people. And that's what's very much been a huge part of why I spent the last two years working on my newest company, Made For, because I've seen so many people suffering, unnecessarily so, right here in the US. And I figured I could do something to help them. Yeah, okay. I want to get into your new venture and I also want to understand your early life because there's something unique about a young entrepreneurial spirit that is grounded in empathy and generosity and also knows how to build a big business around it. Like that's super unique.

But if you went – like mom was a writer. Is that right? Yeah, my mom wrote a cookbook. My dad was a writer. Is that right? Yeah, my mom wrote a cookbook. My dad was a doctor. And I think I can try to kind of break it apart in a way that might make sense because I've thought a lot about this myself. I mean first off, the only way I had the ability to kind of take Tom's and make it a half a billion dollar business was I'd been doing it for 11 years. I started a laundry business.

I started an outdoor advertising company. I started an online driver's ed company. I started a television network. The youngest person besides Ted Turner to ever start a television network. I'd been doing this for a while. And so I don't think when the opportunity think, you know, when when the opportunity came around and Tom started to take off, I had some skill sets that I learned over those 11 years of some successes and failures. But in terms of like the makeup of what what creates this combination of entrepreneur with empathy, I think the entrepreneur part really was my mom.

I mean, she, you know, didn't go to college, was an amazing housewife. My dad was the doctor, the provider, all that. And she, you know, had a high cholesterol and she realized through talking to some doctors, she could lower her cholesterol by changing her diet. And when she changed her diet, she inadvertently lost a bunch of weight. And she's like, wow, that was amazing. By cutting these things out of my diet, I lost this weight. I feel better. My cholesterol is down. And then she wanted to share that. And she wasn't doing it to make money. She was doing it to help people. Because I think that's

just who she is. And I think also my dad is very much that's who he is as a doctor. And so she wrote a cookbook and it became, you know, the best selling cookbook for like four years and she made millions of dollars and it was incredible. And so I saw that you can not have experience in something. She didn't have any experience in health and nutrition, no college degree, apply an idea that you've discovered that works and it can help a lot of people and make a lot of money. And so that was very interesting because I was 15 years old when that was happening. And so that was one part of the impression. And the other part of impression is here's my dad who spends all day every day

helping people feel better as a doctor. And what a great, you know, vocation to have and the joy that he has. And I would run into people in town like, oh, your dad, you know, fixed my knee and I can play golf again. And I'd see the joy in their face. And so those having those two parents and those two experiences in their careers, I think is what really, you know, kind of kind of created a a blend for me of wanting to be an entrepreneur and liking the idea of starting something from nothing. And then also always having this idea of like, how is my life helping others?

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for 20% off. Let's go back to early, early stuff. When you spilt the milk on the table and it's across all the food and everybody just sat down and you were just being a little rambunctious and you spilt the milk, so to speak. What did the discipline, what did the response look like in your family? I don't have the best memory of those types of things. I mean, like meaning, like I don't have a good or bad memory. Um, but you know, the first thing that like instinctively comes out is that you know is like my parents never um really uh like like i don't know what the right word is but they didn't really like worry too much about

little mistakes like you know there was it was always like oh you spilled the milk let's clean it up like let's move on like you know like oh you wrecked your car like that sucks like you're not gonna have a car for a while you're gonna have to you know work this, oh, you wrecked your car. Like, that sucks. Like, you're not going to have a car for a while. You're going to have to, you know, work this summer job to pay for it. But you'll eventually get a car again. Like, it was always a there was nothing that happened that, like, really knocked anyone off their kind of their calm state in the house. I mean, I definitely remember my dad being concerned about money before my mom wrote the book, because I think, you know, doctors at that time made a lot of money and then they started making less money and with insurance companies and all the things

are happening in like the early 90s. And so I saw him concerned about finances, which also probably was a driver for me to like take control of my own financial destiny by being an entrepreneur, but there was no like dramatic responses to things like spilled milk. Okay. So then risk is a big part of entrepreneurship as well and building, um, you know, sometimes from scratch, sometimes from much, right. But there's a risk play involved in it. How did you learn about risk? And how do you risk now? Yeah, like, you know, interestingly enough, I feel like I've never felt like I've taken a risk with a business, even though people externally be like, you take massive risk. Like, to me, and this is what I talk about when I get to speak to university students and people is like, I didn't choose to be an entrepreneur and take a calculated risk.

Like I saw my initial business was I broke my leg. I couldn't carry my laundry down to the facility. I looked for somewhere in the yellow pages that would pick up and deliver laundry. It didn't exist. I thought that should exist. I'm going to start one. You know, I mean, that's the type of thinking my driver's ed company was, you know, a woman that worked for me at my, uh, my television network, like her son at a barbecue was telling me how

boring his driver's ed was. And that like, he never paid attention in class. And that scared me as a driver, because I was like, if this is so boring and you're not even paying attention, like, that's not good if I'm on the road with you. And so I had an idea of like, hey, what do teenage boys care about? Well, they care about beautiful girls. So I'm going to hire hot models and actresses to teach driver's ed. And it became the fastest growing driver's ed company in California. Like, I mean, it's just there's like, just simple ideas like that, where, but I never felt like when I invested money to start the driver's ed, I was taking a risk because I was like, this is just going to work. I mean, teenage boys and teenage girls. I hired a bunch of guy Abercrombie models for the girls.

And I had the teenagers' total attention because this is what they care about. And they learned to become great drivers. So all my businesses, you know, I mean, Tom's, yeah, like it probably looked really risky, but I wasn't really doing it to make money in the first place. I was like, this is a cool project. I get to go to Argentina twice a year, give kids shoes, have fun. And, you know, if we make some money in the process, great. And then it, you know, exploded. And then there were times, I will say, I don't want to, there were times where Tom's did start to feel very risky when millions of dollars were at play. I had no investors,

like huge orders coming in, things like that. But at the impetus of all my ideas and all my entrepreneurial starts, they didn't feel risky because they felt like I was just responding to something that seemed like an obvious need. Okay. If before we zoom too fast forward, if there was, let's call it maybe three cornerstone events that just come up right now in this conversation as being important to shape you. And this is prior to, um, prior to building businesses. Okay. So, and maybe just even just one, like what's an event that helps shape your approach to life? I mean, I have this great, I have goosebumps now. It's so great because I love this. This man has passed away years ago, but I truly feel like he was a messenger from the divine, from the source.

When I went to tennis, I went on the tennis scholarship at SMU. And when I was at SMU in Dallas, Texas, there was a huge benefactor of the school named Bob Dedman. And Bob Dedman was a self-made multibillionaire, literally grew up in a trailer park in Arkansas, became multibillionaire, started many companies, one called Club Corp, which owned more golf courses than anywhere in the world. And he was a huge benefactor. He'd given millions and millions of dollars to SMU, University of Texas, et cetera. And he loved watching tennis. And so he would come out and watch us practice tennis. And one day, my tennis coach knew that I liked to play golf.

And obviously, Bob Dedman played a lot of golf. He said, you know, I think Bob Dedman Bob Dedman, uh, would, you know, I could set up a, uh, a golf meet. Now this was after I started my laundry business. So he was like, you're an entrepreneur. You're like starting something. I think Bob Dedman would love your story. He's an entrepreneur. I arranged for him to take you to play golf. And so here at this time, Bob Dedman, this time is like 78 years old.

I'm 20, 22, 23. And Bob Dedman takes me and plays golf, tells me all these jokes. We have a great time. He gives me some advice about my business. And then thankfully I had the idea to do this, but we sat down for lunch and I said, Mr. Dedman, I had a great day, but if there's one piece of advice that you could give me as an entrepreneur, as a young man who's going out into the world, what would it be? And he pulled out a piece of paper and he wrote, the more you give, the more you live. And he handed me the piece of paper. And here's the most successful person I've ever met financially in my life. And, uh, and that was his advice. So I literally put that piece of paper at 23 years old into my wallet. It was in my wallet for like four years. And then I lost the wallet. So I don't have the piece of paper anymore. But what's so fascinating is I think had he not planted that

seed, Tom's never would have happened. Like I just would have kept on starting businesses to make money. But at some thing, six years after he planted that seed and he had passed away, I just had this feeling of, yeah, the more you give, the more you live. And that event has shaped, you know, my career and now pretty much everything I spend my time on. Okay. I mean, serendipity, you know, that's pretty amazing. Like the whole thing. Yeah. What did you do when you lost your wallet? When you had that note in there? Oh, I don't, you know, it's one of those things where it was probably I lost the wallet and then it was six months later, I realized, fuck, that was where that note was. Yeah. Right. You know, it was like, yeah, it was tucked away in there, but it was in there for a long time. Yeah. Okay. Okay. So we've got, um, this is part of the beginnings of the

generosity, right? And the, and empathy came from dad more than mom. Is that right? I think my mom wrote a book to help people as well. Yeah. I think that was something that maybe, you know, I love the, I love the conversations about nature and nurture. And now I have two kids and they're both so different. And I'm like, okay, like, and I see so many people who come from the same parents ended up so different. And so I think there is some, you know, both. And so maybe on the nature part, I got empathy from both of my parents' own DNA when they made me. Is that, okay. So is that part of your philosophy? The more you give, the better you live? Is that,

was that the quote? 100%. Yeah. I mean, that's like, that is, I mean, I think I have several mantras I live by, but that is definitely one of them. What do you understand most? Like if there's a thing that you understand most of the 30 some, 40, I don't know how old you are, 40 years, 43, 43, the 40 years that you've been alive. What have what have you come to understand the most? Man, that's a good question. I think a couple of things.

One is I've been an active journaler since I was 15. Here's my journal right here. It's quite unique. It's this metal-bound thing, and then I have to change out the pages as I go through them. But I have literally a fire safe with hundreds and hundreds of journals since I was 15. And from time to time, I go back and randomly pick one out. Like, what was I doing when I was 22? What was I doing at 35?

And I pull it out and I read it. And what I've realized is, and there's all kinds of books and spiritual teachers and things about this, but I really do believe that you can manifest anything in your life. Now, you might use the word manifest, you might use the law of attraction, you might use the power of prayer. I think it's a little bit of all for me. But I've seen almost everything that I fully committed to in my journals unfold in some version of that in my life. And so I think there's something really powerful that we are co-creating our life with God and with the thoughts that I think and specifically what I write down. And I'm not surprised when things fall into place perfectly for me. I have a really good friend who is a very spiritual guy and I think a really wise guy. And when anything happens that would just be so serendipitous so crazy like just like it would blow your mind

he just says of course and i'm like what ian what do you mean of course it's like of course you're the flow like that's you know and it's like and he really lives that way and so i've started to live that way too now but i think that's one of the things that i really can say with just total certainty is that if you can think it it it can happen. And there's in every spiritual text, there's verses in the Bible and in the Koran and everything is, you know, that you really can't all things are possible to those who believe. And I think that's one of the things that I just absolutely feel like I know. And then the second thing, going back to the give you live is, you know, the more that we focus on others, just the more open we

become and the more open we become, the more we experience love and the more love we experience, the lack of fear we experience. And then all of these things like stress and fear and pain and jealousy and depression just dissipate. So it really is like, how do we, and we'll get into this maybe with Made For, how do we every day have practices in our life that help open us and help us get our vision focused on others so that we can really bring in all the goodness that is available to us

and really, in a sense, self-heal in real time. And then on the writing side, what are you calibrating against? So are you asking questions? Is it exploratory? And then do you have like a set of principles that you're trying to understand or reflect against? And I'm not looking for like the exact tactic, but like, what does the spirit of it look like? Yeah, it's a little bit of everything. I mean, I think some of it is, is like, you know, writing, you know, just my feelings and what I'm experiencing and, and what my hopes and dreams are. Then other times, it's, you know, these are the 10 goals I have for the year, and then checking in on how I'm working to accomplish them.

I think some of it, you know, can be, you know, poetic, like little poems and little, you know, things that, you know, make me smile and cause me to get out of my intellect and into my spirit. You know, when I was younger, it was probably mainly goal oriented, you know, starting with the tennis days and then the entrepreneur days and very tactical of like, my goal is in the next 30 days to sell 500 pairs of shoes, you know, like, here's how I'm doing. Or, you know, I'm really frustrated with this girlfriend right now. And I don't think she's the one and I'm checking in 30 days. And if I'm still writing this, I'm breaking up, you know, things like that. So it was a little bit of everything, but more is

just having that, that constant companionship and dialogue dialogue so it's not stuck in your head. And then something magical happens, especially with the goals and the intentions and the desires. They just start coming true. And then was that influenced by mom and dad or was that influenced by your friends? I don't know. No, I was weird. I remember now like 15, 16, like being on the side of the tennis court practice and like everyone else is like done and like joking around. I'm sitting there scribbling in my journal. It was just a weird thing that who knows cosmically why that spiritual discipline I was so attracted to because I didn't know anyone else that journaled like I did.

Yeah. So on that note, what is it that you are searching for? Like to go back up to the, to the big picture for a minute, like we're down in the weeds about writing and then toggle back up, you know, what, what are you searching for in life? What was I searching for? What am I searching for now? We could do the whole very different. Yeah. Let's do the whole arc. You know, I think that that's the story will unfold. Yeah, I mean, I think

as I've done a lot of inner work, I mean, I think a lot of what I was searching for was approval and acceptance, which ultimately is love. Like there's this great Jesuit priest named Anthony DeMello and he's passed away now, but he was an amazing, I don't

know if you've read any of his work, but okay. So you, you might've heard this, but if people listening haven't, I mean, he says the greatest lie we were ever told was that the most important thing to ever feel in life is to feel loved. And when you read that, you're like, lie, that sounds about right. Like to feel love, that seems like a really important emotion. And he says, no, the problem with that is, is that we're taught that at a young age and that feeling love is so important. But then really what that means is to feel loved, you need to feel successful. And to feel loved, you need to feel accepted. And to feel loved, you need to feel, you know, you know, attention. And those things cause you to feel

suffering. But the greatest need in life is to give love. And if you're giving love, then you will naturally be love. And you won't have any needs. And so I think I spent, I really think I spent the first 40 years. I think it's just in the last three years that I really, and maybe even the last 18 months, to be honest, that I really understood that I spent 40 years looking to feel love, feel acceptance, feel applause, feel these things. But and that and that got me a lot. I mean, I was really good at it. Right. Like I accomplished a lot. But at the end of the day, I felt all of it.

And there was still something that was lacking at times, not always, but at times. And so where I've landed is, is what I'm searching for now is what are all the ways that I can give love? Like every day, who can I give love to? Can I give love to my kids? Can I give love to this planet by being responsible environmentally? Can I give love to my kids? Can I give love to this planet by being responsible environmentally? Can I give love to my ex-wife by being a great partner? Can I give love to, you know, the millions of people who are suffering in the U S through the new business made for, can I give love to you by, you know, being on this podcast? I mean, that is what I'm searching for because every time I feel like I'm giving love, I'm in bliss. Yeah. So that, when I first read his work,

I was like, Oh, look at that. Because I'm receiving love requires somebody else for your state to take place. And it puts you out of a position of agency or out of a position of efficacy, you know, big terms in psychology. And then, but when you, when you say, no, no, no, it starts here and I'm going to practice and give it and give it and give it, then it puts you in a position of power, you know? And I, and I use that in the most benevolent of ways. Like it's like a beautiful state, like, okay. And it was a game shifter for me too. Yeah. So when did you first come across that? And then how long did it take you to reorientate the way you live your life? You know, I first started reading Anthony probably three or four years ago.

There's a couple people that I really love. Richard Rohr is another one that I read a lot of. Oh, there's a lot of beautiful meditations he has. Yeah. I think it's the only email that I open every day is his daily email. For folks that don't know him, it's R O H R. Yeah. And it's the center for action and contemplation in Albuquerque where he operates from and you can go and sign up for his email. It's amazing. Um, and he's an 80 year old, uh, Jesuit priest as well. Um, but, uh, you know, I think it's I think it's like anything like you read things and then it takes a little time and it marinates and life happens and you forget things. And I mean, on a spiritual level, I kind of feel like life is all just a practice of remembering,

like, you know, before we were born in our last life or in our spiritual state, we knew all this stuff. And life is how you kind of take the layers of the onion to remember what you already know. And so I think with Anthony, a lot of that and that idea of not needing love, but needing to give love has been a remembering thing for me, you know, the last couple of years.

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and use the code finding mastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash finding mastery. So we have a mutual friend, Jimmy Bartz. Yeah. C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash Finding Mastery. So we have a mutual friend, Jimmy Barks. Who's that? Yes.

Awesome. Awesome. What's up, Jimmy? Yeah. Oh, wow. Okay, cool. And I know you know Jimmy really well. Yeah, very, very well.

He's why I live in Jackson Hole, Wyoming, and he baptized both my kids. And I actually talked to him today on text message. And so if Jimmy was here, yeah. What question would Jimmy ask? Oh, man. What would he want you to share? Oh, wow. Okay. So Jimmy's someone for those who don't know Jimmy Bartz, we should give a little background probably. He is a pastor at an Episcopal church in Jackson Hole called St. John's. Before that, he was a pastor of a church called Fads in Los Angeles. It was very, very nontraditional. And he is a philosopher and just an incredible, incredible human that I've gotten

to know over the years through the church, but also just through life and just like going to his advisor. And so there's been a couple of times where I have, and this is interesting because this ties in three things that we've already talked about. My journals, it ties in, you know, what we're going to talk about, why I started Made For, and it ties in Jimmy Bart's. And it all relates to twice in the past four years I've experienced, I would say, mild to medium depression. So that's something a lot of people would never think that I've experienced based on looking at my life from the outside. But I had two really dark, dark periods in my life over the last four to five years. They both happened to be around the holidays, November, December time, which I've learned by going back and reading my journals. And so I've started to see some pattern recognition of what's led to it. And the person that I've confided in and gone to for help

has been Jimmy Barts. So that kind of ties it all in. So what Jimmy would want me to share with anyone who has or is currently experiencing a depressive state is that it will pass, but it takes real work. And both times, I got through it without any pharmaceuticals or any interventions in that way. And there's no judgment if you need that. Some people, that's a very important part of it. But I got through it really through reflection, through sitting with whatever pain and suffering I was and looking at it as a teacher and not as something that was going to suffocate me or hold me back. And then in the second time I went through it, it helped by going back and reading my journals from a couple years earlier where I sat in Jimmy's office and shared the same thing and then started to see what were

some of the contributing factors that were leading to it. And so Jimmy would want me to share that, you know, that because I think a lot of people do suffer from depression in different states. And I think there's a there's a term that a therapist that I really love named Terry Real coined called covert depression, which is a specific thing he believes a lot of men have in the United States. And he wrote a book about called I Don't Want to Talk About It, which I think is really great. But the main thing I think that's important is, is that, you know, it can be a great teacher. And oftentimes, maybe from a spiritual perspective, depression is God's way of getting your attention on something that you are not,

or you're neglecting. Something that you are, your soul, your light is dissatisfied with, or that you have, you know, concern around, but you're numbing it with work or alcohol or, you know, having a lot of fun, going on a lot of trips, doing whatever you do, you know, watch Netflix, I don't know. But, but oftentimes, depression is like the last resort, like you have to actually feel like you don't want to get out of bed, it has to get that intense for you to realize that no amount of Netflix or collecting vintage cars or beautiful women or whatever is going to solve it. And so I really feel that the key when you get in that state and in some ways to avoid that state is developing what I think you used the term earlier, like a personal agency, a feeling of control of your life.

Because a large part of depression in my case was feeling that things were out of my control, that I was like enslaved by my own stuff, my own lifestyle. And, and, and, and so giving people the ability to have a mindset that allows them to have personal agency, personal control is I think the absolute key, um, anecdote to dealing with depression. And what's so interesting is right now, there's more people in the world than ever in history that feel that they don't have control over their life because of COVID-19. So it's really interesting. I think Jimmy would want me to point that out is if you can develop habits and practices and things that really do give you a sense of control, and that's what we created with the Made For program, then that can help you not get into

that state. And if you are in that state, it can help you get out of it. And so Jimmy helped me a lot with that thinking. And I think that's what he would want me to share. And you've done a lot of inner work. Yes. Yeah. Is that because of the level of suffering that you were feeling or is that because this is the natural place that your efforts have taken you because you built big businesses, you made a lot of money and like what next? Or was it from born out of suffering? I think a little bit of both. I think a born out of suffering is probably most. I mean, I think, you know, one of the great things is, uh, I think that life sometimes can, um, is designed in a way is that, you know, the way that our culture, media, et cetera, talks about what life success looks like is, is, is, is I think very far off, but very

clear, like, you know, make a lot of money, have a great wife or partner, you know, kids, you know, all these things. And what's great about that actually is if you have, if you actually are lucky enough to do all those things, every person I've met has the same, uh, conclusion. And that is, it's not, it's not making them any happier than when they were just starting out in their apartment. Like the key is, you know, the key is not success, by the way, is defined. But really what that does is it creates a starting point and it creates a it's a catalyst for doing this inner work. Because if you accomplish everything that you set out to do and you still feel a hole in your heart or you still feel a longing, well, then there's nowhere else to turn externally anymore. So you got to turn internally. And I think that's

what started happening with me about four or five years ago after I had all the success, after I made hundreds of millions of dollars in selling, you know, Tom's like it just like, OK, well, now I'm at stage one, like I'm here. And and so I. And so I think what's interesting is I can say that, and there could be a young entrepreneur right now listening, and they still need to go through the process. They still need to work hard, get the success, do all the things, because you can't really be humbled. You need to be humbled in order to go inner. And the only way to do that is to realize that all the things that we think are going to bring us joy really are all wonderful things and can be additionally adding joy to your life. But it's not the thing that's going to make you feel the bliss that I spoke about earlier when I'm just fully focusing on getting love. Okay, so let's imagine you pour everything you've gotten to your kids and your, your ex-wife and like, let's imagine you're pouring into them and let's imagine your kids are 18, you know,

so you've had a full experience with them. Um, and hopefully they've got many, many more years to come, but you're a bit older, you know, you're, you're in your sixties or whatever now. And, um, I don't know how old your kids are. So maybe – Five and two. Yeah. Yeah. So OK. So we'll flash forward 15 years.

What do you hope your kids say about you if they were to say, oh, my dad? Wow. That's such a good question. I love it. That's why I said these podcasts can be like therapy sessions. It's so good. So good. I know.

It's a tough one. Yeah, no, it's, I hope that what they say is that my dad loved people. Like, he really, he loves people. He loves all types of people. He is a junkie for human connection. Like, if there's anything that i want them to feel that i'm addicted to it's not my rock climbing or race car driving or surfing but really like he does a lot of those things but he does them because it helps him really connect even more

intimately with other people um and and also i would would, I would hope that they would say, you know, I learned the most from watching my dad, not from listening to him. So that, you know, that, that would be really important that, that my lifestyle and the way that I interact with the world is their teacher, not what I tell them to do. What do you, what are you afraid that they might say? I think I'm afraid that... I think my fear, and I don't know if it's what they would say, but what they would feel is that I set a bar that they can never live up to. And not that I was putting pressure on them, but that I was living such a big life. And I was and I and I was so connected that they never felt like they could get there because they can't get there by 18. Like I wasn't this way even two years

ago. So I want it to be approachable and I want them to know. So my fear would be is that they, it just doesn't seem the bliss and the vulnerability and the human connection that I'm living with almost seems like foreign to them. Like I'm a freak. Um, and that that's not a way that they can live because at 18 they can't, they're going to have to go through a lot before they can have that level of connection. And so that'd be my only fear is that

like, I'm, I'm, I'm setting the pace too fast for them. Very cool. So I go to like, I would, I get afraid that in my, my son is 11 and a half and I get afraid that he, so you and I have a similar, um, idea, right? The connection, the giving, um, the supporting others, the really care for other people. And I get, I get afraid that sometimes I'm doing it everywhere and not in the one place that I really want to make sure I shore up. And so like I'm traveling a bunch and, you know, and so I get concerned there. And I feel like in a weird way, the Corona experience is actually recalibrating and going, you know, like, yeah, yeah, yeah. This is really stay here now.

You know, like this is really important. And so I think because I'm aware of it, I feel like I've damped that down in the last, let's say, four years. And yeah, do you have any of that for you you or is that not, that's not part of your narrative? The empathy thing. I have a tremendous amount of empathy for you and for so many of, I'll just talk about my, my guy friends who are, you know, still, you know, working full time and building their career and, you know, trying to juggle that and hobbies and kids and why. I mean, it's a lot. I had my son, we had our son who's five now at the same, you know, like literally a few months after I sold Tom's. And so even though

I've been very active in investing in a lot of entrepreneurs and then working the last two years and launching Madefor and all these things, I have a disproportionate amount of time with my kids and almost any dad that I know. So I'm really lucky. I mean, I just like, you know, we go and we just do adventures all the time. And so the Corona experience has not been that different for me. I mean, definitely I'd say I'm spending maybe 30% more time because it's, it's full time, you know, but, but I feel like it's not that different. But what has been different is being able to connect with so many of my friends have been like, wow, this is where it's at. Like I've always had this sneaky feeling that I'm not dedicating enough time to my kids. But now it doesn't feel like something I need to do. It feels like something I'm deeply

enjoying. Like, I'll give you an example. It's a little bit of a tangent. Stay with me for a second. But the way I've experienced my friends, especially men who are high performing entrepreneur, you know, young kids, the way they've explained their parenting experience is a little bit of how I recently went much deeper into my meditative practice. So I've been meditating for a couple years. And I look at meditation typically as like working out or hygiene. Like, if I meditate for 20 minutes a day, my days are just better. Like, I don't know exactly why, but I'm just a little bit calmer. I'm a little less reactionary. I have a little bit more peace, but I do it as hygiene. And I'm

not saying that my guy friends do parenting as hygiene, but they have a lot of things on their plate. So they're like, okay, I got to get, you know, my weekends are full time with the kids. And every day after work, I want to spend an hour with my son kicking the ball or doing whatever for dinner. But that's like a very, that's it. Like that's all the time that they have because of their careers. And so it's been a little bit of like, I got to make sure I check that box because I know it's good for me. Now, when I recently went on a seven-day silent vipassana. And for seven days, I sat silent and meditated. And I had times in which I was meditating.

I was like, I enjoy this as much as surfing. Like, this is like an experience. Like, I'm doing something. I'm not, like, just doing it because it makes me feel better. Like, this is it. Like, this is the stoke. And so I recently have looked at meditation not as something like I need to do, but meditation is as enjoyable as a great meal or a surf session or whatever. And so I'm seeing that my friends and their parenting is starting to see that too of like,

oh no, this isn't something I need to do because I'm a responsible parent and I want to be a good parent. I want to have a good relation to my kids. Like, no, like this is really like I'm easing into this where it's like really an activity I really enjoy. And so I think that's a really awesome, awesome, positive thing that's happening because of the coronavirus. You know, I'm actually surprised just the way we both lived in Southern California for a long time. I'm actually surprised through Jimmy, through ideology that we haven't met before. Like you're saying things that I'm like, wait a minute, you know? And so it's evidence to me, the depth of the work you've done and how much you care for being honest and authentic and being vulnerable enough to have the courage to go to places that many people won't go to. And so, like, I'm stoked. I want to make sure that I understand what you're doing for your new venture. And so can we tap into that?

Like, sure. What's the big vision? What are you doing to move that forward? Well, I mean, we've kind of really laid the groundwork. We've talked about the two bouts of depression. We've talked about, you know, kind of having all the traditional signs of success, you know, wealth and family and about is this, and it goes a little bit to kind of, I think, part of why I've had some success as an entrepreneur is like, if I want to tackle a problem or I have an idea and I have, gosh, I've had two pretty big bouts of depression in four years. Like I don't want to have a third time in year six. Like how can I avoid this in the future? And at the same time, starting to pick up on the fact that I wasn't alone.

Like we have more people on antidepressants in the United States than in the history of the world. We have more people taking sleep aids because they can't sleep because they have so much anxiety than ever in the history of the world. We have more people taking sleep aids because they can't sleep because they have so much anxiety than ever in human history. We have more people saying that they're lonely than ever in human history. So I realized like it wasn't, you know, I was, I had my own sufferings,

but man, our country, our world, especially people in first world areas are really suffering. And so that led to me realizing especially people in first world areas, are really suffering. And so that led to me realizing that if I was going to put my resources and entrepreneurial energy behind something, this would be a really big challenge to go after. Not only could it help me personally, but there's millions and millions of other lives at stake here. And so I approached it with this idea that what is what do people who really study the human condition in a laboratory, not in a spiritual perspective, or in a church or in a, you know, kind of latest, you know,

biohacking, but literally, like, what are people who really study things in a church or in a you know kind of latest you know uh biohacking but literally like what are people who really study things in a laboratory where there's double placebo studies and all types of control groups finding are the greatest contributors to human thriving or or flourishing or happiness or whatever you want to label it because i i was at a state where I wanted to be able to have something that I could really stand on. No BS, no trends, no fads. And so that's where I started. And so I was very fortunate, or I believe, and my friend Ian would say, of course, or very serendipitous, that I became friends with a gentleman named Pat Dawson. And Pat was a Navy SEAL for nine years. He also grew up in Texas like me.

We had a lot of the same friends in common, but we had never really hung out. And our mutual love of surfing is what connected us. And so we went on a surf trip together, and I shared a lot of what I was going through in life. And at this point, he had retired from the SEALs. He was working at Google as an executive. He had gone back to school at wharton and got his mba just a just a rock star human being um and and he was really fascinated not by my own condition but by the big macro issue of so much self-inflicted suffering in our country and the fact that there were a lot of ways that people could avoid this without going towards pharmaceuticals or other interventions.

And so Pat and I decided to approach this like a research project. I funded it. He resigned from Google. And he mainly, and then me too, as much much as I could spent a year meeting with the top scientists from Stanford and Harvard and all the top universities asking the question of what causes human beings to flourish what what are the what are the simplest things not the big things that only a few can do like Navy SEALs or, you know, top CEOs or executives. But the basic things that, if done consistently, can cause people to really thrive. And we partnered with a guy who runs a neuroscience lab at Stanford named Andrew Huberman. And Andrew helped arrange all these other connections. I don't know if you know Andrew or not. Great guy. And we started looking at, okay,

what are the basic things that are having the biggest impact that science can really stand behind? And the interesting thing is that as we started doing this process, we started getting excited. We thought, oh my gosh, we think we can find 12 things and we can create a year-long program. And so that was the goal. And after a year, we realized that we could only really

stand behind 10 things. So there's only 10 things in the program. But what we did find, two principles that were really important in these 10 things. One was these daily habits or practices or experiences that we walk you and guide you through you can't learn them quickly and you can't learn them simultaneously So you have to do it one? Practice for a full month at a time. It's kind of the movie Karate Kid. I think I always say we're like mr Miyagi's like when Daniel wants to learn the karate chop He has to wash the car wash the car wash the car and he's like why the fuck am I washing this car? And then he has the killer karate chop made for is very similar like that we have you focus on a very simple thing um for a month

and by the end of the month you feel this transformation but you're like wow like i didn't see that coming almost like it's it's so simple that you don't think it could be as effective as it is but not jumping too far ahead. We spent this year, we found these 10 things. We feel like, okay, one of the principles is you have to do this one at a time and very methodically over a month. The second principle, which really surprises a lot of people, maybe not so much now after Corona is we had to teach people in an analog fashion. We couldn't create an app. We couldn't create a video series. Like it's just the digital distraction is just too overwhelming in this day and age.

So we had to teach you in an analog way. And so the protocol that we created was each month, if you sign up for Made For and you're a Made For member, you get a box in the mail. And there's three things in it every month. There is all the curated science. So we take all the science that we worked with these amazing minds and labs and universities. And we curate it down to like a 25-minute read. You can read like a magazine article.

In very layman terms, very easy to understand. But it really unpacks like why you learning this is going to have an effect and what part of your life it's going to have the most effect on your body, your mind, your spirit. The second thing is we designed a tool. This was the hardest part about the business because it took two years to design 10 tools that you could interact with that would help you really learn this new practice or habit. The third thing is all about the accountability, the community and the monthly challenge. And so there's a challenge card that shows how you're going to be connected with this community to stay accountable and what you need to kind of

mark off each day to show your progress. And so we go through this 10 month journey with people and they can do it. They do it in their homes or their offices or wherever and um and what we found was we've had 13 people hundred 1300 people go through the program um we just launched you know a couple months ago um but uh but but we did a beta group before that and we found was what was interesting and is that people's lives transformed in ways that we never anticipated so like weight loss is not part of the program at all though we don't focus on it but we've had so many people lose 10 20 40 pounds because we changed their mindset on other things and so they started paying attention to what they put in their mouth what habits that were holding them back. You know, we don't really focus deeply

on, you know, things like, I'm trying to think of another one that was so fascinating. Well, we do focus on personal relationships, but not at the detail level, like mother-in-law relationships. But for whatever reason, mother-in-law relationships tend to be, you know, quite charged. And we've had several people come back and say, I have been able to engage and connect with my mother-in-law in a way that I never have after I did this practice for a month. So it's things like that. They like, you know, that we focus on very basic elemental things, but they tend to have effects on people's mindsets that are far greater than we ever imagined, which makes me really excited, which gets to the bigger mission, which we say a better world starts with the best you.

And that can sound a little cheesy, but I really believe it's true. It's kind of like the more you give, the more you live. If you really focus on showing up as the best you to your office, to your wife, to your kids, you can have the biggest impact on them. But if you're just trying to serve your kids or your work or your wife, and you haven't done the inner work or haven't been able to transform some of these basic habits, then you don't have the right energy. You can't have the right mindset. You might not have the like emotional intelligence. And so so that, so that's what, um, we're committed to. And, and, and, uh, it feels like early day Tom's again, because the mission

is so big and I'm already seeing it helping so many people. That's awesome. You know, I knew that you were on this path, but I didn't know to the depth of it. And, um, on a parallel path, um, coach Carol, the head coach of the Seattle Seahawks, and I, we built Compete to Create, which is almost identical, except we don't do a boxed bit. And so we've come up with five factors. Okay. And so not 10, but five main factors. And each factor has a couple things that you can do to train it. So we've got a self-discovery practice.

We've got a mental skills practice. So how to train calm and confidence and focus. Then we've got a psychological framework, which is how you see the world and yourself in it. And then we've got a recovery bit, like how to recover from the challenges of the day. And then the fifth factor is mindfulness. Oh, wow. Yeah. So like we're on a very much of a parallel track. And is that just for the players or is that something that you offer fans and people outside of the team? So we started as an incubator, like what are our shared practices? And then we formalized it and shared it with enterprise companies. And then so Microsoft is kind of the lead off

batter and they've trained, they trained over 40,000 people at eight hours a person like to go to the, yeah, it's amazing. And is it self, is it self guided or do you actually have like certified trainers to train people on these? Yeah. So early days, what we did is, um, it was us trying to work out the curriculum, quote unquote, and it was myself and Olympians and sports psychologists. So we only hire Olympians and sports psychologists. And then we moved counterpoint to your point, to your earlier statement is then we moved it to a digital scalable mechanism. And so I don't disagree with the noise, but we couldn't figure out how to do it at scale.

I like the box method. Like that's a nice touch that you put on it there too. And so I think our missions are the same, exactly the same. Our tactics are close. And some people might say, oh, that's a little weird. It's such a big ocean. Are you kidding me? There's so much room for me to celebrate what you're doing and hopefully in return, you know, you guys, you know, say, hey, there's something over there that's on the digital side that you might like to that.

Yeah. The ocean is so big for this. is to sit and reflect on the challenges our planet has faced and that we as species and how we treat each other. And there's really no end to the need for this type of work. It's like in some ways it's almost like, I'm trying to think the right analogy, but everyone has a different way that they learn. Right. And that they can experience.

Some people need to go to a five day all intensive retreat and can afford to do that. Frankly, you know, some people, you know, only have 10 minutes a day. And so having a great, you know, meditation app, you know, or something like that is their ticket for growth. You know, others can go deeper in with what, you know, you guys have created. I mean, it's everyone is different. There is no way. Yeah, that's exactly right. Yeah, that's exactly right. You know, if you would have asked me five weeks ago, you would have said, hey, what are the two culprits to humans thriving, you know, to like fulfillment and flourishing and living their best life? I would have said fear and fatigue. People are like not managing chronic stress at all.

And they're afraid of all the things that could go wrong because they're barely keeping the plate spinning. And it's exhausting. And guess what? Now you add coronavirus on it and the fatigue has gone up. It hasn't gone down. And so I'm concerned about underlying mental health and wellness for people. I'm like really concerned about it. And so awesome. You know, that you're making a dent, hopefully in this space in a big way as well. Thank you. Oh, cool. Okay. Let me, can I hit some quick hits on you?

Yeah, sure. Okay. Let's do this. Street smart or more analytical? I would say I'm definitely more street smart. Do you prefer a slow paced environment or something more fast paced to learn? Slow paced. Are you a rule follower or risk taker risk taker and if you could be the first person to go to mars but only a 50 chance to come back alive would you go no and do you have a high need of control or low or somewhere in the middle i would say in the middle depending on the relationship and the endeavor do you make fast decisions or slow?

Fast. Yeah. Are you more self-critical or self-positive? Self-positive. And then are you intellectually competitive? If someone says something kind of stupid, you know, like, or you totally disagree with like that type of thing, or you're like, wait a minute, or do you just kind of let it roll? I let it roll. Optimistic or pessimistic? Optimistic. And then a high sense of self-trust or low medium?

High. Trust of others? High. And you're more extroverted than introverted? That changes a lot. I think that I've become a learned extrovert, but in my core, I'm more introverted, more introverted. There lies the value of journaling for you. And then do you do what you think is right or feel is right? That's a good, that's a great question. I don't know. I've never really thought about the distinction between thinking and feeling when it comes to right. I would say probably feel. Feel. Yeah.

How do you finish this? It all comes down to? Love. Brother, I appreciate this conversation. Me too. Yeah. That's good, man. I'm wishing you absolute flat out success in what you're doing.

If there's any way that I can help create a rising tide. Yeah. Let me know. This is awesome. So I look forward to promoting this to everyone I know, and this will be fun and beautiful conversation. Yeah, man.

Okay. So enjoy the birds, enjoy Mexico, enjoy your family. I'm back on good duty. Yeah, good. Okay,

brother. All the best. Okay. Bye. Bye. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you.

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