Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Face Down What’s Uncomfortable and Find Purpose | Spartan CEO, Joe de Sena

Episode Date: May 5, 2021

This week’s conversation is with Joe de Sena, the founder and CEO of Spartan, the world’s leading endurance sports and wellness brand.Throughout his lifetime, Joe has competed in any extreme sports adventure he could find, testing his mental and physical endurance against nature. His racing resume is the stuff of legend – over 50 ultra-events overall and 14 Ironman events in one year alone.And that led to Spartan – a global experiential sport and wellness brand with a 10 million+ strong community. It creates transformational experiences, products, and content to help people, companies and teams tear down boundaries and expand what they believe to be possible. I wanted to have this conversation with Joe to better understand what drove him to create Spartan.We discuss purpose, sacrifice, work/life balance, habits for living healthier and so much more._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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stay present and engaged with my thinking and writing. If you wanna slow down, if you wanna work smarter, I highly encourage you to check them out. Visit remarkable.com to learn more and grab your paper pro today. You really want to dive in and try to figure out your purpose. Very hard thing to figure out. I like three questions. You know, what would you do if you had all the money in the world? I like that question. What would you do if today was your last day on earth? I like that question. But my favorite question, my third one, I would ask yourself, what would you do if you knew you're going to fail anyway? I mean, I failed at Spartan for 15 years. I didn't make money. It was a disaster. But I keep doing it anyway. So clearly,

I love to do this. Yeah, that's what I would do. And make sure you're healthy as you can be when you're analyzing that question. Okay, welcome back, or welcome to the Finding Mastery podcast. I'm Michael Gervais. And by trade and training, I'm a sports and performance psychologist. Now, the whole idea behind these conversations is to learn from people who are committed to both their craft and their inner life, literally those who are on the path of mastery. And the idea is we want to better understand what they're searching for, how they use their mind, their psychological framework, if you will, to make sense of the world around them, to make sense of how they're pursuing their

own life. And then we also want to use these conversations to understand the mental skills that they use to build and refine their craft. And if you want to learn more about how you can train your mind, it's just a quick little reminder to check out our online mindset training course, where literally I just pull back the curtain and show you how I help world-class athletes build essential psychological skills. And the course is built so that you can develop those same very skills to live well in your life. And I mean, I mean, living well in having a sense of deep wellbeing, as well as to help

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stop, check it out, take a look at it. But I would bet most of you understand exactly what Spartan is. It's the world's leading endurance sports and wellness brand. And what they do is that they take people through radical challenges, physical and mental. Throughout Joe's life, he has competed in any extreme sports adventure that he could find. He wants to organize his life to be tested, to grow, to figure out how to be better. And his racing resume is the stuff of legends. Over 50 ultra events and 14 Ironman events in one year alone. And that led to Spartan.

And it's a global experiential sports and wellness brand with a 10 million person strong community. And it creates transformational experiences and products and content to help people and companies and teams literally tear down boundaries and expand what they believe to be possible. And I wanted to have this conversation with Joe to better understand what drove him to create Spartan. And then what does he think is the unlock for people to reach their potential?

And we discussed purpose and sacrifice and this mythical ridgeline of work-life balance. And then also the habits for living healthier, and so much more that we get into. Now with that, let's jump right into this week's conversation with a true legend, Joe DeSena. Joe, how are you? I'm good. I'm really good since somebody wants to talk to me.

Hey, so I love watching what you're doing. I've loved watching what you've created. And then I've been fascinated how you've pivoted this last year. Like, so I just want to say, uh, you're a beacon and an emblem for grit and toughness and agility. And so I'm excited to have this conversation with you to kind of get to the source of how you've been able to, you know, blaze a path and create something that is completely disruptive and different and stick with it even when it's hard. So congrats on all of that. Thank you. Would you please tell my wife and kids that like I'm a big deal and, um, and this stuff I'm doing in the house, um, no one seems to get it. They're all like, they just blow me off. But you know, I, I, it's hard, right? Constantly paddling up river with a message that's,

hey guys, you got to get off the couch. You got to do hard stuff. You got to go run in the rain. You got to take a cold shower. And people look at me like it's a joke. And it's not. You have to do these things because we got to practice hard stuff. Oh, by the way, the science shows that it's really good for the mind and body. Sitting in complacency in a climate controlled room is not healthy. Right. We got to live on the edges. And again, my own family, everybody I know, if I'm walking down the street pre-COVID and somebody was walking with a big gulp soda, I'll take it out of their hand. I don't even know. No, stop it.

Swear to God. Swear to God. I met, I forget the comedian's name, Tracy something, you know him, a famous comedian. I met him in an airport. He was eating Doritos. Took him. You know, people just don't get it. And it's very hard to be in this business because if I was selling cotton candy and it'd be easier, it just would be easier. Well, you know, you say that and I want to get into like, you know, I asked this question a bunch, but it comes off wrong. But like what gives you the right? I say it to a lot of people like what's giving you the right to be the first person, you know, to land on Mars, even though it hasn't happened yet. But like, where does that come from? And so let's start with that. Like, where's it come from that you're so on it, you're so connected to what you think is right, that you'll grab Doritos

out of somebody because Doritos are not healthy, period. Okay. But one bag of Doritos, maybe it's no big deal. You know, maybe one bag. Everybody says that, but, and this is a very extreme statement and I don't necessarily believe this, but like, is it OK to, you know, just do crack a little bit in moderation? No. And so, you know, look, I make mistakes with food, too. I make mistakes with working out. I make mistakes all day, every day. But but we have to hold each other accountable and help each other because the way our great society works is we want freedom and with freedom um comes a lot of junk that we can't seem to control that leads to obesity that leads to unhealthy minds that leads to psychologists and suicides and so

like this is fixable and it's just annoying for me because um literally like if i was if i had the power i i would and i'm not even joking when i say it i would just say we're getting rid of all hot water heaters in in america we're making everybody wake up 5 a.m everybody's in bed 8 p.m there's no more alcohol or drug like we're just fucking shutting it all down and we're going to be productive peak performers. We'll be happier. Like I don't get it. I just don't get it. Okay. So let's start, let's rewind this a little bit. What, what's driving you? I love how crisp you are. I don't agree with that. Like take out, like become Spartan as a complete lifestyle. But I, I am fascinated by the Spartan approach, your approach as well. And I don't agree with like removing everything because then we,

we actually run into the sensitivity of not appreciating, you know, if we took away nighttime and how would we appreciate sometime if we took away sadness, how we'd appreciate happiness. So I do like the, the choices that we get to make because it defines us. And so I like that there's people out there that are waking up like sloths. I think it's okay. It's sad, but it actually gives me a reference point to go, okay, that's not how I want to live. And then my more savage part of my competitiveness is like, Oh, good. You know, this makes it just a little bit easier, which I don't like to think like that, you know, cause I'm, I'm trying just to orientate with you, Joe, as I'm trying to become my best, not better than others. Right. And so

I look at the collective though, and I say, we would just like, I've, I've built businesses since I was a kid. And, um, I just could never get my head around like laziness, not being able to show up a few minutes early, not being able to take care. I just couldn't understand why people some people can't get their shit together. And so I'm resigned to the fact that we have to do it for people like I sound like a crazy person. I know. But like it's not working. Look at the data. Yes, you're getting after it. I'm getting after it. There's like 1% of us that are getting after it. Everybody else is falling into the trap and eating Velveeta cheese, staying up late, addicted to their phone. It's not good for any of us.

Yeah, no, it's a problem for sure. I'll tell you a world-class coach said to me one day, um, uh, he says, this was like day one of us working together. And he says, Hey, listen, just, just, I want to remind you something. He says the athletes downstairs, they don't know shit. I said, what do you, so disrespectful, right? He goes, I'm telling you, Mike, they don't know. They don't understand. We have to help them. And he says it in a way like a grandfather type approach. He's like, we have to help them. And listen, there's no excuse. Like if, if we need to reach somebody, we don't say, well, I left a note in their locker room and they never came up to see me. Or I told them to see me after, but they didn't go wait, go get them, go, you know, go help them. And so that material

commitment to actually go the extra step to help people sounds like you're cut from that same cloth. But let me rewind back. Why? Like why this path for you? You say you don't get it, but I bet there's something about your family that was really true about getting after it. My mom was pushing this philosophy in the seventies and I was, I was pushing back. I, I was in a neighborhood, a organized crime capital world, and it was very normal to be eating cannolis and raviolis and sausage and peppers and aspiring to be a wise guy. People didn't take care of themselves. We didn't know any better. My mother found a vegan lifestyle. She started teaching yoga.

I watched her fast, no food for 30 days. So like she was pretty extreme. And this was in the 70s, early 70s. There was no Whole Foods. There was no yoga journal. This was not common. So talk about paddling upstream. I mean, so I watched her over the next 30 years, push this lifestyle and transform people. And ultimately, I bought in.

Okay, people around me bought in. And so I was like, wow, she's right. She's right. And so that's what that's. And by the way, one other thing. Don't forget, I started this thing called Spartan. And I've had 10 million people do this. And I see people to finish line and I talk to them and the difference between the person I meet before they take on a lifestyle like this and the person I meet afterwards, of course, you'd want everybody to do this. What is the Senna emblem about? Like, what is the family crest about? I think it's that, right? I think it's that Spartan logo. I think, you know, I tell my kids, like, I don't care win or lose. I don't care. I just want to know you work hard. That's what you do. That's what we work hard. And what are you searching for?

Like, what is it that you're trying to create? I know you want to hit 100 million people, right? I think I read that. 100 million people that change their approach to life by experiencing the Spartan ethos. So if that happens. Yeah. I want to rip a hundred million people off the couch. Rip a hundred million off the couch. And then with a sharp stick in their back or a dull stick? How about I lure them with a Dorito?

Wait, I was going to say, yeah, Dorito. I thought you were going to go to the carrot. Yeah. Okay, good. All right. Because you, as a psychologist, there is a psychology about people who run ultras and do ultras. And what's the stat? How many did you do in one year? Oh, I did a lot. I was in a bad car accident. And I went out the window of a vehicle at 85 miles an hour. My leg was ripped out of my hip and they told me that I would never run again, barely walk, all that. So I just kept going to different doctors until I found a doctor that said to me, hey, you have the same injury that Bo Jackson had, the athlete, right? The football player, baseball player. And the femur head came out of his hip.

And so if this is going to work, we don't know if it will. You've got to get blood flow to the hip. You've got to do stuff, but not like pounding like Bo did. That was a mistake he made. And so I said, oh, you know what I'll do? I'll sign up for a bunch of Ironman events. And so I just went on a rampage, just doing Ironman after Ironman after Ironman. And then and then once it looked like my hip was good, I was running ultras. And I,

I was just a man on a mission really selfishly, because I had the scare with the car accident that I wanted to squeeze all the juice out of the lemon, right? Just make sure I got everything I could if I wasn't going to be able to walk again or had to get a hip replacement, whatever it was. Plus, the other thing is, for those of you that don't know, it's hard to stay in shape. It's a lot easier if you have races on the calendar. I call it the Spartan paradox. I'm not selling you anything when I say that. It's just like a boxer, you know, a boxer doesn't get in shape until he or she has a date on the calendar and they know they're going to fight. And then all of a sudden they get serious. And so I just kept dates on the calendar every single weekend so that I didn't have to, right? I didn't have to fall out of shape and get back in shape. I just ran around the world doing races. You know, I did an ultra. It was incredibly successful as an experience,

not on a notch in the belt, but an experience of transformation. And when I got done with it, the person who helped me, the coach, Peter Park, says, he goes, so let's think about the next one right away. And I was like, what? I'm not built for that. I am type two fiber, which is more of the kind of the fast twitch.

I'm not built properly for the long distance, but I found it incredibly like transformational. And so I don't even know what it's like to do one a weekend. I did one and fully hallucinated while I was out there doing it. And so I did something wrong, but I did many things right that led to a complete transformation. And so when you're out there, what happens for you? Yeah, I mean, lots of hallucination. I get to a place, and I think everybody should get to this place um where i just want water food and

shelter you know we used to live in that place for most of most of the time our species been on the planet uh we didn't have access to like uh being able to pull a drive-through and get food but when you get to a place where you you're cold you're tired you're hungry um it melts away all the bullshit in your mind that you're dealing with that is irrelevant and um and that's a really refreshing place to be it sucks i can't tell you how many times i've been there and i said maybe i should just take up ping pong but then but then you're through it and you're like oh my god that was so nice that your shoulders drop you're hurting but it's just like nothing else matters that's nice place to be so that's the that's the um yin and yang right is that through the suffering we understand the sense

of peace and contentment would you say that you are a content peaceful human or are you more on the scratchy attuned to suffering type of human i mean i you tell me the way i answer this i'll say i get asked all the time how is your flight because i fly around a lot i say well the plane landed i mean it would suck if the plane didn't land. Right. And so that's like, how's your day? I'm alive. So am I content? Absolutely. I have tremendous gratitude that my kids are healthy, my family. I have a family. I have a wife willing to live with me. Right. Like I'm super gratitude that you're willing to talk to me. So I pinch myself every day that we own this brand Spartan and, and like, but,

but if I'm not going to scratch to answer the question more succinctly than who is, who is not a lot of people that are out there trying to get folks off the couch. Most people are trying to get people on the couch. Finding mastery is brought to you by Momentous. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday, what you put in your body matters. And that's why I trust Momentous. From the moment I sat down with Jeff Byers, their co-founder and CEO, I could tell this was not your average supplement company. And I was immediately drawn to their mission,

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What does that matter to you? What's the larger purpose that you're sorting out? I mean, it's selfish. In Israel, I read selfish. I read, um, in Israel, I read this scripture that said, if I get a hundred million people off the couch, I automatically go to the, Oh my God. 90 million. I would have chose 90. I, I'm put at a hundred. It's the number. So that's what I got to do. I'm just getting the job. Yeah. Okay. I'm calling BS, but I, I like the humor in it. So,

but how do you, how do you balance between entrepreneurship and, um, being so dedicated to changing people's lives? Like, and I'm sure you found the harmony between the two. And so, but how do you do that? It's tough. You know, I, my dream, no bullshit, my dream would be that the U.S. Military Department of Defense just pay us to do this job. This is a public service. I do not like the stress of having to make this work as a business. But I want to do the work. I just want to do the work. I want to convince people.

I want to transform people, give people a chance to have a rite of passage, all the transformation you talked about during, but, but the, the, the business side of it sucks because just imagine like what goes to my mind every single day. Oh my God, if we were just selling something easy. Right. So I want to hit on the CEO versus founder versus visionary, you know, because you're wearing three hats and you're actually the subject matter expert. So there's a relationship that I have with with the business part of my work and then the craft. And I, too, have that same thing like, oh, my God, it'd be so much easier if people wanted to train their mind. And so the CEO part of you, how do you do it? How many employees? Our last conversation that we had, you said some staggering number. That was right before COVID hit. You had a staggering number of employees.

I mean, listen, pre-COVID, we had 550 employees, but we bought our competitor right at the very beginning of COVID. So I don't even know, maybe it was like seven 50, but, but every race we do 325 events around the world, 45 countries has a thousand volunteers that we have to take care of. And right. So that's 325,000 people to, to feed and give them a shirt and take care of them and make sure they take care of the frontline, the customers. Um, it's staggering. And, um, yeah. And, and like I said, the business part of it sucks, but there's just, like, if somebody is out there listening right now, I mean this sincerely, and they really have a passion for what I'm talking about. Um,

extreme wellness, let's call it. Um, and they. And they also have a knack for running a business. I just, I'll be chairman, take over. I just want to go out and meet people and rip the Doritos out of their hand. To do both, it's fucking hard, but there's just not a lot of people that lean this way. If there were, it wouldn't be so hard. Not that anyone's counting hours in a passion filled life, but what kind of hours do you put

in running your business? It's every day, all day, every day. There's no, whatever out waking, whatever hours I'm awake, I'm working. There's no. So how do you balance that with the relationship with your family? Well, my wife is a frigging princess. She's a queen. And I'm not just saying it like every husband would say, but think about it. I'm always on, always. Oh, not going to be around tomorrow. I got to disappear for two days.

And I've just integrated, work-life integration. So I'm on the phone in front of them. It's just one big gray mess. And I've just integrated work-life integration. So I'm on the phone in front of them. They're like, it's just one big gray mess. But thankfully, they look at it as purposeful and she accepts it. And the kids don't know any better. So they accept. They have no choice.

Messy. How old are the kids, your kids? I range 8, 12, 13, 15. So I've got a 12-year-old. And when COVID hit, he and I did your training. You did some Spartan Up Kids training. You put it online for free. And it was awesome, dude.

It was right down the sweet spot. You had a couple Olympians that you were doing some stuff with. I don't know if that's still happening. I think I lost track of it somehow. But it was awesome. Are you still doing that? Well, we have all those tapes only because we happen to be hunkered down together and we had a cameraman and that's why we did it. And there were some days that were big days, hundreds of thousands of people tuned in and did it. But I would love to do it. I just, I need, I need people to actually get their kids off phones.

That's nice, inspiring that you told me you did it with your child. Not everybody does it. Yeah, so what you're looking for is someone to take off some of the business side of things for you. There's smart, passionate people that you had, of course, have met, but you haven't given over the baton yet. Is that because you have fear? There's lots of smart people. Look, my own team, which clearly believes in the brand.

Yeah. Right. Even they question me as being nuts. You know what I mean? So it has to be a person that really gets this. Um, and, and as, as crazy as it about, about it as I am. Um, yeah. Okay. So let's flip back to family for just a minute because there's a, you, um, there's two questions I want to ask. You take up a lot of space,

Joe. And I mean that in a, um, favorable way. And sometimes. You take up a lot of space, Joe. And I mean that in a favorable way. And sometimes when people take up a lot of space, they can crowd out others. And so then that's the double-edged sword. Those, you know, to use the Spartan metaphor in an odd way, the double-edged sword of taking up space is that sometimes you can cut people down. I think you have a benevolent, optimistic approach for humanity, and you're working tirelessly to help others. I 1000% believe you in the way you say it. When you take up space, though, do you ever notice that you crowd others out? And maybe they start to diminish because of your, the presence that you have in such a bold, aggressive,

concrete, in youryour-face way? Yeah. I mean, I was thinking about it last night with my son. You know, my son, my two boys wrestle and we were at wrestling practice. And my oldest son, he's got to cut a few pounds by this weekend. And I could see that he was getting tired towards the end of practice. So I walked out and I went to give him a piece of orange. And he didn't want it because he was probably a little embarrassed at like what and later that night last night he said to me dad you know why do you do

that the other dads don't don't walk out like like why did you and that's basically what he was saying to me so I I went back to my room I was getting ready for bed and I said you know what this is a good moment where I could probably talk to him for the first time, like man to man, you know, as opposed to dad to son. And, um, I said, look, let's have a pact, um, where, you know, I won't do that. I won't, I won't like baby you or make it like embarrass you that way. But if I ask you, you know, if I'm like, Hey, take a slice of orange. Cause I could see something promise me you'll just do it. And he goes, dad, that's not a deal. That doesn't work. That's like saying we're both not going to eat chocolate, but I get to eat whatever I want.

And so – Right. Oh, my God. And this is the 12-year-old? This is the 15-year-old. 15-year-old. OK. All right.

I'm learning that, yes, I do crowd out and I'm a work in progress on it. I got to fix that. Well, I don't know. I think that it's an asset that you have. You have presence, that you're big. And so because of that, people are like, let's follow because that is inspiring. And you are switched on. There's no kind of hiding that about you.

And I would never suggest that you should diminish yourself so that others can feel bigger. But I'm just wondering if you've run into that. It sounds like you have, that because you take up so much space that other times some people can get crowded out. And I've seen that as a trend in people that are extraordinary. I got to work on it. How do you imagine you'd work on it? Well, I mean, just being aware of it. Um, if I'm, I'm, when I'm in social situations all day, every day, uh, by the way, I got to work on it with the kids for sure. Being aware of it and doing what I said last night, right. And taking that moment and realizing the impact of those around me, especially those that are growing still the kids. But what others, believe it or not, I want to back off. I want somebody else to be in the front. I don't want to do podcasts all day, every day, write books. I don't want to do it. But you got to find that

person that's willing to do it. We just did a town hall. I had to talk to all the employees globally for a minute with my team. And I really shined a light on our staff that goes to the races. This weekend, I have seven races going on around the world. People, if they watch the news, would assume no one's even outside. I'm looking at traffic. I've been on airplanes for a year. I've flown all over the world for the last year. And I saw it go. I saw airports go to a place where there was nobody, literally nobody. Airports are packed again. Things are back. And so people wouldn't even know if they're still in the living room on the couch that things are back and we've got all these races. But like those teams of ours, they're on the front

line, COVID or no COVID all around the world this weekend. And they're, and they're, they're leaning in. And I shined a little light on them and said, Hey, you gotta, you gotta hand it to them. And I got a text back from one of my team members said, Oh my God, you've grown so much as a leader. And so I just need to do more of that. It's interesting you bring that up as a point because I was going to say, can I give you a little gem that maybe you want to practice? But I don't want to assume anything, you know, but can I give you a gem? Please. Yeah. See, and you might wave it off like, no, it's stupid.

But the research around complimenting is pretty cool. And so gratitude, which you're high on, is like, I am grateful for, for, for, for, but it is a self-filling bucket, if you will. And then a compliment is kind of like the next extension, which is a compliment is like, I am grateful, or I noticed this about you, or I see this. And you can go two ways. You can talk about the external. I really liked the way you cut your hair. I like those shoes or something external, more surfacy. Or you can drop down if you know the person into the internal. And we don't give enough compliments as humans, right?

There's some sort of vulnerability and power thing that gets in play there. And I just love the idea for you as because you take up so much space is like seeing others and then dignifying them publicly. Sometimes you got to do it privately because the vulnerability piece, but that might go a long way. I'm making a commitment here today that I got to give out 300 compliments a month just to stick with the theme of 300 because of the movie 300. And that's 10 a day. 10 a a day and they got to be real because if they're not real people sniff through it quickly and then yeah what you'll find is that some people if this is a new behavior for you some people will be like this they'll be like wait a minute what's he want what what the hell did joe just do like he's giving me a freaking like so then you'll

you have to be no no bullshit, no bullshit, no bullshit. And like that, like I really, and I see this and I love this and dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. And I just want to call it out. And so, um, yeah, it's definitely worth playing with. And I love that you went to 10 a day because most people want to level down to three. Ooh, can I do three? And you're like, I know that, you know, that number about three and you're like, nah, 10, we're going for it.

Good man. And 10 weeks is way too long to do three, you know, three a day, you know? And so every day. Yeah. How about it? All right. Cool. Um, all right. So let me go back to your son really quickly. And this is one of my crises and as a psychologist who is working with the best in the world across multiple disciplines, is that there's an internal scratch that I have and a scratchiness, I should say. And I don't wish this internal turmoil, obsessiveness about my craft on anybody. And one of my mentors says to me, Mike, what are you trying to do in your life? You want to be a good dad?

You want to go deep with a few? Or you want to go impact across many? What are you doing? Because that's my crisis. When I'm ripping across the planet, I'm not with my son and my wife. And I made, I made a deep pact to them. And so I had to kind of sort out my response to that dilemma. How do you answer that? Impact across many or deep with few? Yeah, I go back to that word integration. I think, you know, work-life integration, I just mix it all together. And the way I reconcile it in my head is I say, look, if I was back on Wall Street and I was working on a trading desk or I was an organized crime or I was just mountain

climbing for myself, for my own pursuit, that would be really selfish taking that time away from the family. That would not be the right thing to do. But we as a family own this brand called Spartan that does this thing that changes lives. Let me tell you a story. OK, last week, a FedEx shows up at the house and my wife opens it and she's teary eyed a little bit. She's like, you got to open that. You got to look at this. I said, Oh, here we go. I'm getting sued by somebody who said the barbed wire is too, too sharp or who knows what it is. Right. She's so I opened it up and I'm reading really quickly because I got to get to the point. And it looks like it's a customer that's given me some money, which I get quite a bit during COVID that says, we want to make sure you don't go out of business.

Here's 10 bucks. Here's a hundred bucks. Here's $200, whatever. And so I quickly scan that. I look at the check. The check is a million dollar check, $1 million check. This is last week. And I'm like, wow, this has got to be a joke april 1st right right but i look and it's my buddy who owns sax fifth avenue and now i read the note more detailed and it's like i really love what you do it's very purposeful we had a great week last week i do not want to insult you by sending you this but if you guys need it use it if you don't just keep it in your drawer and um and so when you say to yourself i could spend more time with my family by the way i leave work every night here's a failure of mine i leave work every i'm immediately with the boys going to wrestling practice my wife has the girls at some point my wife and i have to swap because

i don't want at 18 or 20 years old the the girls will say, why did you go to every wrestling practice and you didn't go to soccer practice? Like we have to figure that out. That's my failure. But, but when people are that impacted, um, we're doing good work. And so there's gotta be a little sacrifice in the family. And, you know, again, I'm not out drinking at night. I don't play golf. I'm not climbing mountains.

I stopped all those crazy races once we started having children. So I don't waste time other than like what we do. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day. And Cozy Earth has become a new part of that. Their bedding, it's incredibly soft, like next level soft.

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off your first order. That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash finding mastery. Okay. Great answers. And scale of one to 10, let's call it a zest for life scale. What number are you right now in this conversation? In a zest for life scale. Where, what number are you right now in this conversation? In a zest for life? I'm making that scale up right now. Zest for life, like being totally switched on. But I'm saying, just to understand the question, in a zest for life, am I a one or a 10? Yeah. 10 being high on zest for life right now, thin slice right now. I'm 150. All right. So I like that you're unreasonable.

That's good. Okay. So you're one. Let's just change the norm to a 150. So you're 150 on the zest for life scale. And then when you drop, what's an acceptable number that you're saying, okay, I need to be in this kind of range. And if I'm not, I'm upside down and things are not right for me. On my zest for life scale?

I mean, if I'm doing something that doesn't feel purposeful and I'm not loving it, I'm not doing it. Okay. So you're skipping over. I kind of thought you would say that. But what I want to get to is when you don't feel right. The great Joe dissented. Like, how do you get right? I didn't feel right the other day. I'm in the middle of launching a new product and it's messy. Like anything I launch it's, it's in the combat space. So I'm specifically

with wrestling and jujitsu and so forth. And it's just, you know, 21 years ago when we started this with obstacles and everything that it could be messy. And then, and then trail racing, we got into, and that's messy, but I'm getting older, right. To start from scratch again with a new, new thing. So I wasn't feeling great, but that only lasted like, I mean, an hour. Okay. So how do you work through it? I just, um, I just completely flip it on its head and I look at the positives rather than the negatives. You know, I just, I don't dwell on anything negative. I just look at the positives. How many hours a night, um, how many hours of sleep a night do you get?

I go, I'm sleeping by no later than nine, nine 30. I'm awake by five. So whatever, eight hours, seven hours. Okay. And then, you know, one of what, one of my friends who has done many ultras like you says, Mike is so unhealthy. Like what we do to our bodies is ridiculously unhealthy. And he goes, ask Joe if it's what he thinks about smoking a pack of cigarette a day versus running ultras, like multiple ultras. Well, so I would say it's unhealthy the way we did it years ago.

Now that I know what I know, I would be over hydrated. I'd run slower. And like people say, your knees don't hurt or whatever. No, because I don't run fast. You know, you should be able to as a human being. You go 300 miles. No problem if you don't run fast. So if you're doing four miles an hour, five miles an hour max, like go forever. It's not,

it's not beating you up, but if you're completely dehydrated, you haven't drank water in a while, you're pissing blood. Yeah, that's, that's unhealthy. Um, So it just depends how you approach it. But I'll tell you what, if you gave me two choices, the couch and Netflix or walking 15 miles a day, I'm taking the 15 miles a day, all day, every day. All right. So where are your Spartan races in the, let's call it the hierarchy or not the hierarchy, in the range of intensity? Because there's some, like the early days, like what are they called? The death race? 72 hours.

Let's start at the bottom. So at the bottom, three miles. Yeah. Everybody could do three miles. And then I have an eight mile. Everybody could do eight miles. Then I have a half mile and 13 miles. Everybody could do three miles. And then I have an eight mile. Everybody could do eight miles. Then I have a half marathon, 13 miles. Everybody could do that.

And then you just work your way up to a full marathon. If you're a person that needs to chase and, you know, really test your metal, you can go up to 72 hours at death race. And obviously that's a small percentage of people that would ever try, try that. Um, but the bulk of the people, they just come out for a three mile, um, beat me up fest basically. Right. And then what are the habits that you would want people to do to be able to make that

difference in their life? Like the, the daily habits to prepare to do it, whether it's a three mile or 72 hour, whatever it might be. I'll give you the daily habits they should apply to their life whether it's a three mile or 72 hour, whatever it might be. I'll give you the daily habits they should apply to their life, whether they do Spartan or not. They should wake up early. I mean, most people, most, not everybody, they have to get to work. They have to do something. They have to go to school. So you want to wake up early. You can't change that. And so that just by default, go to bed early because you want to wake up early you can't change that and so that just by default go to bed early because you got to wake up early right so nobody could argue with me there

and as soon as you wake up drink a couple of glasses of water room temperature water put a little lemon apple cider vinegar in it if you want and um and then from there get a sweat on every day i don't you don't need to go run an ultra marathon, but 30 minutes, you get a good sweat on. Do some burpees, do some pull-ups, go for a walk, whatever. Eat a salad. Try to eat a salad with every meal. If you're going to have a bowl of Dunkin' Donuts cereal with sugar and fucking all that shit on it, have a salad with it at least.

That's my latest thing. I've dumbed it down. Just have a salad with everything, a big salad. latest thing i've i've dumbed it down just have a salad with everything a big salad and don't turn your salad into a pizza don't cover your salad with ranch dressing and cheese and all this crap have a legitimate green salad with every meal and um and eat eat between nine in the morning and you know 6 p.m. because we're not designed to eat nonstop. Yeah, that's it. If you did that, I'd be thrilled.

And then 10 compliments. You just got to add the 10 compliments. 10 compliments. That's easy. And then do you have any practices around meditation or mindfulness or optimism training? Or, you know, do you do any of that inner work for yourself? I meditate right before bed every night. Depending on how tired I am will be determined how long that meditation lasts. It usually lasts at most about two minutes.

I close my eyes. I completely drain my brain. I focus and boom, I'm out. For the life of me, my mother taught meditation again in the 1970s. And for the life of me, I can't understand meditating during the day. I want to be on the go. I want my brain being creative and everything. For me personally, it works at night um optimism training i don't need any optimism training i need pessimism training i need a little pessimism in my life i i i'm the most optimistic person you'll ever meet um i i need compliment training i'm you you gave it to me right at the right look uh student is ready to teach her fears. You reached out to me clearly. I need to give more compliments. So boom, you arrived. There you go. Yeah, good. All right. There you go.

And then, so one of the processes that, or the outputs of meditation mindfulness is that it's awareness training through deep focus and refocus really. But the next pillar is about wisdom. And so if you were to be so bold to say that you've generated and revealed some wisdoms to be true to you, maybe not universal, but that's really what wisdom is about. It's universal, it's available, and it stands up over time. But all that being said, do you have some wisdoms that you would say, okay, this is what seems right for me in my life? I wouldn't just say right for me. I mean, it's all the stuff I just said.

I would say it's right for everybody, kind of like brushing your teeth or going to the bathroom. If you just follow those simple steps we just described, I'd say it might not sound like wisdom. It's very basic, by the way. You think you should drink water in the morning when you wake up and flush out those toxins. You think you should sweat every day. It is the largest gland organ in the body, right? You think you should go to bed early. I mean, yeah, those are my wisdoms. Okay. Why do people, there's nothing wrong with quitting. Let me just put an asterisk next to that because sometimes it's the smartest thing to do is to quit the job that you have. Sometimes quit smoking. That sounds like a smart thing to do. on some sort of intense circuit, like doing the, um, an ultra or a marathon or, or, or training in general. And, you know, but in your, if we just put a negative connotation on it for just

a moment, why do people quit when they've kind of chipped in at some level? The number one for me, my belief is the number one motivator for human being is the avoidance of discomfort. And we do that to stay alive, you know, for a million years on the planet, freezing to death in the cold, that'll be uncomfortable. Your brain subconsciously is telling you don't do that. Anything uncomfortable, your brain is avoiding that discomfort. So I've done this for millions and millions of people. I've had personal interactions with at least 50,000 people where they want to quit. They're in the middle of a three mile race, an eight mile race, a 72 hour race or whatever.

It's hard. It's uncomfortable. I've had these conversations with myself. You've had the conversation with me. And what happens is your brain spits out a bunch of logical reasons. For example, early in the morning, you know, you got to do your workout. Your brain spits out a bunch of logical reasons. For example, early in the morning, you know you've got to do your workout. Your brain says, oh, you've got to get coffee. You've got to read the news. You've got to do it. No, I don't. I don't have to do any of that.

I've got to do my workout. But my brain is avoiding the discomfort of the workout. So brain spits out all these logical reasons. And more often than not, we quit. And then we regret it. And then a lot of people can't get going again, and, but I agree with you, there are times, and I've wrestled with this for, you know, 30 years, what, when is it okay to quit, and so the way I've, the way I've come up with, like, the litmus test on when that was a legitimate quit or not is it depends on your purpose in life. It

depends on your true north. So for example, if my true north is to be the greatest family man ever, the greatest dad ever, and I'm climbing mountains and we are a hundred feet from summoning Everest and a snowstorm rolled in, I'm outside the time window of safety but uh i have a choice i can go down i can go up and i want to be the greatest family man ever fuck i go down i quit however if i want to be the greatest mountain climber that ever lived and i'm about to set the world record before this other guy i'm competing with is about to climb k2 and i'm single and that's my purpose. No way, I'm not turning around, I'm going for it. So you gotta have some sort of a reconciliation, some sort of test that when you're really under stress and the shit's hitting the fan

and subconsciously your body's saying quit, you're able to look at it and say, wait a minute, does this action I'm taking right now align with my values, my this, does this action I'm taking right now align with my values, my beliefs, et cetera? Because most times it's just your brain saying it's too hard. And do you, where'd you come up with that? Because it's, it's actually sits squarely with the science of purpose and there's three components that sit underneath of it. So where, where did you come up with that? Yeah, look at you.

That myself, no bullshit. I've wrestled with this thing forever. When is it okay to quit? When is it okay? And I just thought, I mean, I created that little scenario. Oh, well, it's obvious that if it doesn't line up with my purpose, my values, then I should quit. All right. So then let's play this game is that most people struggle with purpose.

It is almost too big to bite off. What is my life purpose? It's one of the big questions in life. And Harvard did a 75 year study where they measured fulfillment or their study fulfillment. And those that reported to be more fulfilled are the ones that wrestle with the big problems, the big challenges, you know, the dilemmas of life, if you will. So how would you help people start to get clear on their purpose? And maybe you say, come to a Spartan race, train for Spartan because it's like a step on the path. But I'm sure that life purpose is not to do Spartans, you know, but it's part of the ecosystem that you're creating is about mini purposes, you know, set your calendar to your purse to your point earlier is a mini purpose that you're working toward. So I'm trying to take some of the insights and gems you have and extrapolate to something larger, but how would you help people? Well, I think if you and I were automobiles rather than human beings, if you were a Ferrari and I was a Lamborghini or whatever, and we were going to go on the racetrack and kind of just see what the vehicles had under the hood, we would probably wash the vehicles. We'd tune them up.

We'd make, you know, we'd go through and check the brakes and everything so that we could really test the vehicles and see what they're all about. And so as you ask the question, I'm thinking, well, if you really want to dive in and try to figure out your purpose, very hard thing to figure out, I would think you'd want to clean yourself up. I think you'd want to make sure the oil's in the engine and get all those things done, right? So you probably want to spend some time following that program, drinking water when you wake up, eating healthy, eating more salad, not because if you're putting a bunch of garbage in, you probably don't

have clarity in your mind. So let's assume you did all that. Now the car is washed and ready to go on the track. I like I like three questions. You know, what would you do if you had all the money in the world? I like that question. What would you do if today was your last day on earth? I like that question. But my favorite question, my third one, I would ask yourself, what would you do if you knew you're going to fail anyway? I mean, I failed at Spartan for 15 years. I didn't make money. It was a disaster. But I keep doing it anyway. So clearly I love to do this. Right. Um, and, and so, I mean, yeah, that's, that's what I would do and make sure you're healthy as you can be when you're,

when you're analyzing that question. So lack of purpose, avoidance of the uncomfortable. These are two constrictors. These are two, um,, if left to be to their own devices, will get in the way of people living a meaningful life. Do you have any others that you say, yeah, you got to pay attention to this? And there's one that I definitely want to bring up with you, which is the management of ego, the management of what other people think of you but before we go to that one do you have any others that you say i would say i mean i'm i'm winging it here you and i didn't prepare but i would say community i mean if i was around a bunch of shitty people all day that would suck yeah so um any energy drainers and stuff like i want to be around life's too short i want to be around great hard-working industrious youous people that are creative and definitely don't have egos. When I was younger, I had an ego, more of an ego. We all that you have that some people might not want to step up because you're the boss. But who tells you when you're wrong? I got a bunch of advisors that fight with me all day, every day. But, you know, you need it.

You need to be put in check. You do that. Yeah. Okay. What do you think about the fear that people have of other people's opinions? That's just ego, right? It is. Just have an open mind.

And, you know, it's kind of like google earth right there's there's um there's 50 000 feet you think you see and then you could zoom in and people around us just have a different viewpoint on ourselves and that's what i was trying to say to my son also like you didn't realize that you needed a slice of orange trail last night in the middle of that practice right like i but i can't he's 15 years old um he doesn't have a prefrontal cortex or whatever and he i just couldn't get through to him so fuck it now he's not getting any more oranges i'm not sure that's exactly oh my god all right um i i don't think I'm satisfied with the answer about fear of people's opinions. I don't think you have much space left for managing what others think of you.

But did you ever wrestle with that at any point in your life? Oh, my God. My first business, I cleaned swimming pools for a lot of mob bosses and a lot of people in the neighborhood that were extremely detail-oriented maniacal nutcases um they took care of their houses like uh you know the karate kid's um mentor was mr miyagi and and um it was just so important here i was young and building a business and i didn't know what i was doing that everybody loved me that everybody like wanted me back just just pure you know business the business side of it that made sense but it also hurt me because because um you know I guess it I guess it hurt me personally but it also could potentially hurt the business

and they would talk to other people if they didn't like me and what we were doing. So yeah, I mean, I wrestle, I used to turn my stomach if I upset somebody. So, um, I can't say I'm perfect at making everybody happy, but I do give it a good college try. And when you think back to times that, and you don't have to give details, but when you think back to times that have been the most painful for you, I'd venture to say it probably has, it's probably not the physical pain that you and I can relate to, the suffering of during a race or an event. But what are the big, maybe, but what are the big pains? And again, you can give story and details if you're comfortable, but you don't have to be. I could have did more for my mom before she died. I could have did more for my father. I could have went to see my father more. And you know, the last five, 10 years of his life, I was so wrapped up in being on wall street and, and, and making money and getting ahead.

I missed a lot of weddings. I missed a lot of funerals because I'm so wrapped up in what I do. So, you know, I got regrets. I got regrets there. And how do you wrestle with those? This is the dark side that people don't want to talk about. And I ask from a personal standpoint. Yeah, I just, I mean, maybe this is a bad answer, but like it's the past it's over. I'm not like it's over the black.

It's already five seconds ago is not coming back. So I just, I'm pushing forward. That's what I got to work on. What's ahead of me, not behind me. Do you think you'll make the same mistakes? I still, I still, I still trip and make those mistakes. I do. Yeah. I think you got to sit with the suffering a bit, you know, cause I get the Teflon, you know, the, I get that piece, like it's gone,

but it, this was the breakthrough that I had in my ultra. It was a ocean ultra, is that, man, I got to the core of some suffering. And I was like, and my mentor says to me, Mike, what is wrong with you that you needed to go do that to get to the truth of something? And so I think until we get to the truth of it and really investigate that suffering, that it doesn't materially change and even so i can find myself you know finding old patterns that were still there the problematic patterns before the revelation then um then i'd like you know but yeah i you know i think sitting with suffering is

for flicking hard you know especially emotional suffering that's probably you know that's probably why i do these crazy things because i get you know i love suffering that's probably you know that's probably why i do these crazy things because i get you know i love to actually like the suffering i love to dwell on it a bit and then it kind of purges it out um i love this saying there's nothing you can't walk off right now that's not good that's not good for your business because a psychologist you know you want to talk it through but and and you know maybe it's a combination of let's talk it through and then you got to go keep walking until it's gone yeah no i'm like movement is a big deal now for mental health like you know like for sure so i like it i'm not sure you totally get to

deep insight wisdom by just walking like you've got to do some sort of contemplative awareness building with yourself like a conversation with yourself um if you can get to the truth sometimes the reason i think we we've got we one relationships matter but when we have another wise person across from us and we say something and they just give you that look like, are you trying to fool yourself or me? You know, and it's like, so there's some sort of mirror holding that people of wisdom can do that I find to be incredibly valuable. But on that note, if you could sit with a master, a true master, dead or alive, who would it be? Where would you be? And then if you only had one

question. I'd be with Bruce Lee. I'd be, even though what I'm about to say doesn't make sense because he didn't, but I'd be with the Shaolin monks. I'd be with Bruce Lee. And my question would be, I'm making this up. You and I didn't like, my question would be, show me the way. Yeah. The way. Have you read Tao Te Ching by any chance? The Taoist Bible? Have you spent any time with that? Tao Te Ching, right? Yeah. Yes. I read it. I love it. And I need to read it 500 more times. It's so deep, dude. It's one of the practices I would do with coaches. So when I'm with a team that will take the Tao Te Ching once a week, we'll read a passage and then we'll huddle up and talk

about it four or five of us around a meal. It's so good. It is so hard though. 5,000 years old. Is that correct? Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And I saw the translation of many of the passages, and one of them was avoid lawsuits at all costs. Do you get sued often? And well, it's funny because I was in the middle of this really annoying suit and my ego, you know, your ego gets involved. We're going to win. We're talking to the lawyers and we were everything like we should have been the ones like it was just. And I read that and I go, oh, my God, it's he's so right.

It's the writing is so correct. They're like there's no upside in any kind of legal battle with anybody. We should just sit down and work it out. Yeah. Even when you're right, even when you're mad, even when they did something thank you. I love what you're doing. In some parallel path here, I think that there's a synergy that we might want to explore somehow, whether it's mindset training, course training, something on that path that your community, if there's any interest. But I love pushing people to your community. And so I think that what you've done is disruptive. It's real. It's incredible. And so I just want to say thank you for creating the space for people to challenge themselves at a really deep level. And I don't think that the, there's a, there's three starts to every race. There's when the horn goes off. That's the obvious one, but it's the one

before that, that you determine the start. Like for some people, it's when they pack their bag. For some people, it's when they leave their hotel room. For some people, it's when they arrive and put their shoes on. They put their mouthpiece in, whatever. There's a first start. The second start is when the horn rings and there's a third start, which is when you're in deep water and you've forgotten how to swim. And so that third start and the first start are materially important for me. And so you provide a space for people to understand the three starts. And that being said, when's the last time you saw mastery? I just saw it this weekend.

I just was at the Olympic trials. And I saw one of our athletes who has not made it into three Olympic cycles because there was one American athlete blocking him. And this was really his last shot. And he just did everything right. Mindset, body, sleep. I mean, just imagine missing the Olympics and putting four more years in. Another four more years.

And then things are finally organized and then COVID hits. Push it out another year. And this guy just hunkered down and stuck with it and i watched a this is a master this guy yeah it was awesome i'm getting chills it was awesome to see who is it a guy named kyle dake d-a-k-e and for those of you that want a little taste for what happened at the Olympic trials down in Fort Worth, Texas, Google Kyle Dake versus Nolf. I don't know his first name, but his competitor was N-O-L-F. And this was the match that Kyle had to win in order to fight the guy that's been blocking him for three Olympic cycles. And so first he had to win in order to fight the guy that's been blocking him for three Olympic

cycles. And so first he had to win this one. And this this this wrestler, Nolf, is a phenom in his own right. So what if he loses? And he doesn't even get to go up against the next guy, Jordan Burroughs. And he goes out and in 42 seconds shows the world what mastery is. 42 seconds. It was like Mike Tyson in the old days. And then he goes up against Jordan Burroughs, America's greatest, the hero.

There's no chance he's gonna beat Jordan. And it was like, there's a new sheriff in town. It was awesome to see. And not so much about the physicality, but just like I happen to know all the work, all the preparation, the mindset. Like, awesome to see. I love that. When you feel that animation that you just felt, where do you feel it? Everywhere.

My neck, my hair standing up, everywhere. How many of those do you get a day? A lot. Yeah, me too. That's how I measure daily success. Yeah. Yeah. You know, those thin slices of the animation of awe.

Okay. In a word, what do you understand most, Joe? What do I understand most? In a word? People. I love that answer that's flipping a complicated you know that's a complicated set of standards to understand that is beautiful all right uh joe where can people find you where do you want to drive uh some attention that joe at spartan.com you please make it short i don't know if there's any psychological um insights here but i don't like long emails um you could follow me

on real joe descent on instagram and uh you could check out spartan.com you're a bold man sending your email but i love watching you on instagram And I just want to encourage people to, you know, put something on their calendar, um, a Spartan race, put it on the calendar to, to organize your life. I don't think the hard thing is figuring out, um, you know, that third start that we talked about. I don't think that's as hard as it is to make a fundamental commitment to organize your life towards purpose. I think that that's the big deal. And so sticking with it, when you got purpose, you'll do whatever it takes when the purpose is real. You're awesome. I appreciate you, brother. Take care. Bye-bye. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding

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