Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Find Magic in Misery | Endurance LEGEND, Dean Karnazes

Episode Date: May 19, 2021

This week’s conversation is with Dean Karnazes, an acclaimed endurance athlete and NY Times bestselling author, who has pushed his body and mind to inconceivable limits. TIME magazine named him one of the “Top 100 Most Influential People in the World.” Men’s Fitness hailed him as one of the fittest men on the planet. Stan Lee, of Marvel Comics fame, called him, “A real superhuman.”Among his many accomplishments, he has run 50 marathons, in all 50 US states, in 50 consecutive days and he’s run 350 continuous miles, foregoing sleep for three nights. He’s run across the Sahara Desert in 120-degree temperatures, and he’s run a marathon to the South Pole in negative 40 degrees. On ten separate occasions he’s run a 200-mile relay race solo, racing alongside teams of twelve. He has raced and competed on all seven continents of the planet, twice over.So you might be thinking, how I could possibly relate to Dean? And that’s what makes this conversation beautiful.This isn’t about the how but about the why…We discuss motivation, purpose, meaning, overcoming hardship, and so much more..._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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uncomfortable situations and revealing to yourself who you really are by facing different and hard and unusual circumstances. All right, welcome back or welcome to the Finding Mastery Podcast. I'm Michael Gervais, and by trade and training, I am a sport and performance psychologist. I'm just gonna say I love what I do, I love this community, and I love celebrating the genius of others.

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Get a free variety pack, a $25 value and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash finding mastery. Now, this week's conversation is with a legend, Dean Karnasas. He's an acclaimed endurance athlete, New York Times bestselling author, and he has pushed his body and his mind truly to the limits, to the frontier, to the thin herd of human capability. You probably already know who he is, but if you're not in this unique world that he's in about ultra and endurance, I just can't wait to introduce you to him. So Time Magazine named him one of the top 100 most influential people in the world. Men's Fitness called him one of the fittest men on the planet. And Stan Lee of Marvel Comics, he's a fan favorite in my home, called him a real superhuman. So good. Among so many of his accomplishments, he's run 50 marathons in all 50 U.S. states in

50 consecutive days. And he's run 350 continuous miles foregoing sleep for three nights. Talk about pushing limits. We get into why. Why? Why does he do this and this way of living? You know, he even ran across the Sahara desert in 120 degree temperatures. And then, you know, take it a step further. He's run a marathon to the South Pole

in negative 40 degrees. Talk about the extremes. Why? It comes up, but not in an academic why, but it's really like, what is it that you're searching for and what have you found? And so you might be thinking like, how can I possibly relate to Dean? And that's what makes this conversation beautiful. That this isn't about like how he's doing it, but it's really investigating how what he's come to learn is applicable to you, to me, to our loved ones. And so we get into drive and motivation and purpose and meaning, what it takes to overcome or work through hardships, and so much more, obviously. And so with that, let's jump right into this conversation with the legend, Dean Karnasas.

Dean, how are you? As my dad says, I've never had a bad day. Is that true? No, by far. No, okay. It's not a true statement. He's fond of cliches, and that's one of my favorites of his. Every time I ask him, how are you doing, pops? He's like, ah, I've never had a bad day.

So dad worked in cliches, like shorthands for wisdoms, or was it more of a way to sometimes cliches avoid the the depth of a conversation i think it's the latter for sure yeah and i always said that i mean you know writing 101 is avoid cliches but he's got some zingers oh he does he's got some pretty original ones i mean he always says if I was any better, I'd be twins. Oh, my God. That's what I mean, yeah. What is dad's heritage?

He's Greek. I'm 100% Greek. He's very influenced by his heritage, his ancestry. So his father comes from an area near Sparta, Greece. So how does the Sparta influence, the bare bones kind of minimalistic approach to life influence you? Well, you know, I've studied Greek history. So I think that, you know, the Spartans have been an influence on me in a lot of ways. If you go back and look at Spartan society, their values in a lot of ways were footsie and outmoded. They were kind of the North Korea of ancient Greece.

They had a really badass fighting force, military, but other than that, there wasn't much cultural ascendancy. And that was something that they held very dear, is that there was no hierarchy, you know, that the Spartans were all equal and including women. And this is at a time where, you know, Athens was in the golden years and Athens was progressing with, you know, architecture, thought, mathematics, all the things were known. You know, we know from ancient Greece, where Spartan in a lot of ways was a little more democratic, just that women were allowed to vote. Women were encouraged to participate in sports. And so in certain ways, the Spartans were a bit more advanced, but in other ways, they were outmoded. Okay. So I can't wait to see how that plays forward in the way that you've designed your life.

Because I think of the Sparta approach to life as being, or the Spartan approach to life, being very purposeful. And you have had a purposeful approach to life as well. Just for a moment to brag, two-time New York Times bestseller. You're an icon in running across the planet. You're widely recognized as one of the fittest people on Mother Earth. And you've been named one of the top 100 most influential people in the world by Time Magazine. How about that? And you've ran 50 marathons in 50 consecutive days in all 50 states across the United States. And then I do want to pull on Badwater and the ultra that you did there

and learn the insights from that, which is 135-mile race across Death Valley. I mean, I often like to engage with people that do your sport, like what are you running for, what are you running from, what are you running toward, just to really understand the deeper dive of the motivation, but bad water certainly sums that stuff up. And then, you know, I could go on and on about other amazing feats that you've done, but you're still running, you know, so you're still running. Talk to me about like, what are you searching for Dean? You're coming right out of the gates with it.

What are you searching for? Well, I think if you, if you, this can be a shameless plug, but I think if you read my most recent book that's coming out soon, Runner's High, I think that is the question I tried to answer. Because my first book was 25 years ago. It was called Ultra Marathon Man. And it was kind of a, you know, come of age book about learning this crazy sport called ultra marathoning.

And 25 years later, I'm still doing it and still as committed and passionate as I was the day I started. And, you know, what does that look like? You know, some days it's like writing. It's 99% perspiration and only 1% inspiration. You know, it takes just grunt work, discipline to get out the door and get your workout in. Other days it's just a joyous run where I don't listen to a podcast, except for yours, of course. I don't listen to music. You know, I don't wear a watch.

I don't have any set course. I don't have any set time. I just head out the door and I might be gone for, you know, two hours. I don't have any set course. I don't have any set time. I just head out the door and I might be gone for, you know, two hours. I might be gone for eight hours or I might run all night and, you know, show up back at the house in the morning. So to me, it's kind of a hybrid between this discipline approach. You know, obviously you see a lot of trophies and medals in the background. So, you know, I i'm pretty um you know

fierce competitor when it comes to competition but i balance that with just the pure love of running i always say to people you know running is it's worthwhile in itself okay there's so much you dropped in there fierce Fierce competitor, loving the thing of it. And then you slip in, you know, like sometimes I'll start a run and then I won't come home all night. Like, okay, there's, you know, when you say that, it sounds unrealistic. Well, I mean, let me ask you this. When was the last time you were running all night? If ever. Ever. No, that's what I mean. Like, it sounds like I don't have a way to map onto that. And so literally, it sounds like you're built completely differently. But you and I both know you started running around the track once or running up the grassy hill in the backyard once and then twice and then three times.

And then you built up the capacity. But I think it's so hard to map on running all night long. Well, I think it's very essential to the human experience. I mean, if you look at where we came from, you know, we were used to being outdoors always. And I think very few people have spent, you know, from sunup to sundown outside. And how many people have been outside for 24 continuous hours? Very few. And it's, again, it's kind of essential to where we came from. And when I'm doing these sort of, you know, some people would call it crazy endeavors, I feel like I'm supposed to feel, I feel very human, you know, watching the sunrise is,

is magical and, and, you know, tracking it throughout the course of the day, as you're moving through nature, watching the sunset, you know, watching the moon rise and then, you know, running all night and watching the sunrise the next morning is it's, it's spiritual in a way. And I would encourage everyone to try it. It changes who you are. Wow. There's a bike rider, Tyler Finney. So he's an Olympian.

And I was talking to him about his sport. And I'm going to share this to map on hopefully something that you can illuminate what it's like. So I asked him about his sport, like what's it like when it's hard? Because each sport, each career path, each whatever has the hard parts, the tension parts in it. And some people can handle it and move through it and some people cannot. And so the future of their endeavor is written for them in that way. But he described when he's on his bike and he's really pushing the limits, he says, Mike, it's like my race is like 25 minutes of having a toaster in my middle of my chest,

10 out of 10 in heat. And it is incredibly intense. So he described it from a physiological standpoint of his body being so hot that he had to just deal with the mental parts of it. He knew that it wasn't going to be a 20 out of 20 and he was going to explode. But the 10 out of 10 is like full heat and he just needed to manage it. So how do you take that example and put it into running? Because when I think about running for a long period of time, I'll explain the only ultra I've done, but I have a hard time understanding it. There's a quote of mine, doesn't running hurt? And my answer is it does if you're doing it right. So anyone, you think of running, you think of what? Pain. And, you know, a runner has a very unique and intimate relationship with pain and pain tolerance and how you deal with pain because inevitably on every single run, it's going to hurt. And I've had so much pain in my body that every single cell radiated pain.

I mean, to the tip of my nose, it hurts. Just everything hurt. And if you can get beyond those points, it's almost like a metaphysical experience. I've gone from being in such intense pain to a feeling of nothingness, of lightness, of numbness, if you will, and having no pain in the course of half an hour. So, you know, running these extreme runs like the 135 mile Badwater Ultra Marathon across Death Valley, it really, it does things to your physiology and to your psyche. So that last part again, it does something to them? It does. so that last part again it does does something to them it does it you know your your your physiology obviously is is changed and your psyche is is kind of transmuted to

a different reality when you're in that much pain and you push through it okay i want to do a small example and then i also want to do kind of a larger example, if you're a more intense example, to get to something that you've shared in your book. And so I want to read this quote to you first, and then I'll get the small and larger example. So it's obvious that people want to know why you run and you've described it well. But this is on a different level, the way you described it. And I'm giving you a compliment before I read it because I can recognize, just like you can recognize what a good foot strike looks like in somebody, and you can recognize maybe what good arm posture looks like,

you know, and fill in the blanks. And so you see what elite looks like. And so when I listen to the way that you crafted these words I'm about to read, it tells me that you've spent a lot of time on the interior and you can't buy this type of, well, I guess you can, you could hire somebody to write for you, but I don't believe that that's your approach by any means. And not to say that you didn't maybe have help writing, but the insights that you stitched here are, they're rich. And so let me read this with you. Inside every tame man is a wild beast yearning to get out. We become domesticated in our time with our institutions and our paved over earth, our iPhones and internet, our fitness trackers, our group spin classes, gone to the uncultivated human experience, there was little solitude left in the world, few changes to truly escape humanity's trappings and feel the through the wilderness because we are changed by the experience. What takes a monk a month of meditation we can achieve in 24 hours of running.

With each footstep comes a slow diminishment of self, the prickly edges of ego whittled down until something approaches the divine emerges. Even during a race with no shortage of human folly, great moments of clarity are achieved. Running an ultra marathon builds character, but it also expresses it. We learn about ourselves, we gain deeper insights into the nature of our character, and we are transformed by these things. To know thyself, one must push thyself. When I read that to you, where do you go? Well, I mean, one, I'm amazed that I was able to write that. That's some good writing. I'm like, wow, whoever wrote that's pretty insightful. But yeah, I mean, I write on my own books. I don't have a ghostwriter. So those are my words. And I think it speaks to what we were talking about earlier is that when I'm out on a trail by myself, you know, in the wilderness, kind of exposed and vulnerable, that's when I feel most

alive. It's a very human experience. You know, I don't think I don't have to, you know, chase down a rabbit and tear it into pieces and eat it. But, you know, that sort of experience is gone for most humans right now on earth. I have a very deep relationship with nature and an intimate relationship with nature. I'm more comfortable in nature than I am around people. But most do not have a relationship at all with nature or, you know, their relationship with nature is maybe walking around a park. It's not the uncultivated wild nature where we came from. And if you can put yourself in a situation like that, in a setting like that, it, it brings up these almost, you know, primordial feelings within you. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentous. When it comes to high

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Just head to FelixGray.com and use the code FindingMastery20 at checkout. Again, that's Felix Gray. You spell it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com and use the code FindingMastery20 at FelixGray.com for 20% off. So what do you know about the human condition that I and others who don't do what you do and haven't gone into that thin herd? What do you know that it's hard to convey back that you can try to peel back enough for me to understand it, but it's hard to convey it? You know, I think there's salvation in suffering. You know, there's magic in misery. I think we have thought in Western society that if we had every convenience available to us, every comfort, we'd be happy.

And I think in a lot of ways, we're so comfortable, we're miserable. There is no struggle. There is no difficulty in our life. And to a runner, they know that you're most alive when you're struggling and you're faced with hardship. And that runs very counterintuitive to how we've structured our society and our institutions. with suffering, one way to be able to do that is to sit with the uncomfortable and then maybe you'll reveal some suffering. Some people can do it by sitting for extended period of time. Some people can do it by moving their feet, you know, at a pretty fast clip across the desert. But so it's, it's still for me feels very intellectual. And if you, are you, do you lead with your head or more with your heart or is it some sort of unique combination of the two?

That's a really good question. I'm a passionate individual just by nature. But I'm also, because I'm Greek, I guess I'm a thinker. So the one thing that I, the luxury I have is when you run for extended periods, you have time to think when you're not distracted. And I think that it's kind of rare that anyone will just think or meditate for two or three hours in a given day. But to me, running is meditation.

I've tried meditation and I can't do it unless I'm moving. So motion stirs emotion. And to me, it's almost like a meditative trance I enter when I'm doing these long runs. Okay. So I love your dad's work playing out in this conversation already. Like, you know, motion stirs emotion. And did you say the magic is in the misery? Did you say something along those lines?

There's magic in misery. In misery, yeah. And then something about suffering. So I think that I want to get right underneath it with you, Dean, because I know you run so deep that of all the things you could do with your life, you got a big mind. Obviously, you got a big motor to be able to do these things, high tolerance for suffering, big curiosity, that vulnerability intersection between vulnerability and courage, that intersection, you've got that thing mastered. So I want to go back to the original question. Of all the things, why organize your life this way?

I don't know if it's just a natural progression. I'm not sure if, you know, I'm an introvert by nature. So a lot of it is just that I'm more comfortable by myself. And that's how I've structured my life is just a lot of alone time. But, you know But through my writing, I think I've been able to touch other individuals. I think that some of my work has kind of been pigeonholed as running.

It's a runner's book where I think it tackles deeper questions about the human condition. And a lot of my books, I address that. But I don't think they're widely read because I don't position them as that. I don't position them as self-help or prescriptive books. You know, it's, it's largely just storytelling. And then are you, let's, let's try to be a reductionist for a minute. And I'm, I'm not a fan of it, but for a minute minute if they're if you're running to something or running away from something running from or running to you know i think there's a little of

both yeah but and so like if we did dials you know like um percentages say we got to get to 100 okay on our percentages like 90 i'm running to something or five percent i'm running to like where are the what are the dials look like between those two for you i think running to something or 5% I'm running to like, where are the, what are the dials look like between those two for you? I think running to me is definitely a pressure valve. It's a release valve. It used to be more so maybe now than the current situation we're in, because again, being an introvert, when I get up on a stage in front of an audience, or I do like a book signing, it's, it's really intense to me. It's very harrowing. And I hear a lot of, you know, personal messages like runners are very

intimate with each other. You know, we feel like we're kindred spirits. So I have a lot of people telling me very, you know, personal things during book signings, especially. And it's hard for me to process all of that, you know, in a one or two hour session. So for me to go running, it was almost like a cleansing and a renewal. Like I had to run from something and it was just that pent up, just overstimulation, I guess. And the running to something, again, I think that I'm almost at a more comfortable equilibrium, a steady state when I'm running versus when I'm, you know, standing still. So I don't know if I'm running toward who I really am, but I certainly feel comfortable and more comfortable than in an audience when, you know, I'm out running by myself. So where does it go? Does it have to go anywhere?

You know, there's a quote in my book where, you know, I'm talking with a guy that was my ex boss. It kind of like fired me. And he said, you know, let's be honest where, you know, what, what have you got from all this? You know, what do you have to show for all this running? And I looked at him, I said, you know, show to, to who, well, why do I have to show any, why do I have to like say my running's justified? I do it just because it's who I am.

I mean, there's so much to unpack there too. I want to go, I want to start in reverse order because it's easier to follow. But so I'm going to put a pin in, I run because that's who I am, but I want to put a pin in that because it's really significant. And I want to go back to this idea about the running from, and I think I just felt it. And I think I'm starting to map on something new that you're illuminating here is that there's an overwhelming experience for you. So probably high on emotion, high on cortical arousal, probably high on both of those. So like, like you run intense, you run,

I don't mean running like with your feet, but like as an operating system. And so would you say that you, if you were to compare yourself to all other men on the planet, you know, let's say in the Western world, and we can even narrow it down to people in California. Do you think that you are more emotionally sensitive and attuned than most men? Or is that a false assumption? No, it's very much how I'm hardwired. You're perceptive in that regard. I take things very personally. And that's one of the things that social media just kills me is that I, when people ask me questions, I like to respond and it's gotten to the point now,

you know, when I, when I post something, there's a thousand questions and they're all good questions. And I feel like my heartstrings are being torn because I want to get back to these folks and answer their questions. I feel obligated to do that, but I'm not able to. So I think that you're very perceptive in that regard. And did you learn that from mom, dad, or was there some other influence in your life where it could be genetic, of course, but where did you learn that or refine that ability for you to say, yeah, I am highly empathetic and I'm highly sensitive to my emotions and the emotional experience and content of others? You know, it's very much from my mother. You know, she was a middle school teacher her whole life.

So she was a public, she taught in a public school. And, you know, when I was a little boy, we used to go to Greek, you know, I was Greek, raised Greek Orthodox. And when I was a little boy, we used to go to Greek. I was raised Greek Orthodox. And I remember the priest saying to me that I was going to be a priest one day, that I should be a minister. That's my calling in life. And I remember that as a young boy. I didn't know what it meant. But I remember him saying, you know, that's your calling in life is you're going to grow up to be a bishop. Wow. Okay. So you had that, you demonstrated that at an early age. All right. And then you are, you, the way that you think, do you, do you think like you,

let's say that there's something you're trying to sort out. I don't know what it is. We can fill in the blanks in a minute here, but then do you try to get at it as many different levels or do you follow linear paths and see how far you can take that one thought? No, I think I look at it from different perspectives. So I try to approach it from different angles and look at it in a different way. And that comes, I think, with, you know, structure in a sentence as well as looking at a, you know, a different way to say something very common. Okay. So running is your laboratory for thinking and feeling, it sounds like. Yeah, I think the feeling part is inevitable because it deals with your physiology,

your human body. So when you're, you know, when you're pushing your body, you're going to have, you know, experiences and you're going to have biofeedback from that, which is inevitable. You're also going to have mood elevation. I think we've talked about this, you know, the, the runner's high, which is something I, you know, profoundly experienced. I'm not sure about yourself as a runner, if you experienced a runner's high, but you know, we used to think it was endorphins, but they've recently done some experiments where they've given people drugs that block

endorphin uptake and they still get a runner's high after running. And they've come to the conclusion it's endocannabinoids. So just, I think you probably know what endocannabinoids are. They're, it's related to, you know to cannabis, but it's this internal system of mood enhancement that I feel. So from a physiological standpoint, I don't think you can run without having a relationship with your body. Okay. I don't get a runner's high. I don't really understand it. I do feel my physiology, it's not my psychology is keeping a lid on it, but my physiology is a little bit different than that. just feels easier to move. And then I like the syncopation and the speed that I'm running at, which when I first started, like for me, mile one of it, any jog I'll go on is hard. Like the first half mile, I should say. But then as I get rolling, I feel like I settle in, my body settles in, there's a lubrication between body and mind that takes place. And so I wouldn't call it a high, but if I just pause there for a

moment, and this is where I was going to go, a small example, big example. The small example is like, I just want to know if the first half mile with you is crickety. And because I'll go on a little run with my son, you know, like, and he's 12. And so we're just getting going. I'd love some coaching from you about how to help somebody fall in love. Maybe running's not his thing. I don't care what it is, but how to help somebody nurture and fall in love with a thing that is interesting to them. But this is mechanical. Is the first half mile crickety for you? Or how long does it take before you're like, yeah, here I am? Yeah, it just depends on the day but yeah but no I would say half the time the first half mile is prickly and it's it's yeah and you know you say you don't get a runner's high

but I just wonder how much of the endocannabinoids kicking in after that half mile and we are quote-unquote use the word lubricating things I wonder how much of that, you know, in a cannabinoid system is the lubrication. No, I think you're, I think I just don't get that high. I know it in other places, surfing and the ultra I did as comparisons that I can get lost in a good way in the absorption of the environment and a lightness that comes with it that it doesn't quite happen for me in running um it's like let's call it low grade runners high and i think you get a high grade runners high but i get a high grade runners high in surfing you know sometimes not all the time and i definitely got it post hallucinations on the ultra that I did. And so how often do you hallucinate when you

get, I mean, is that I'm an amateur. I bonked is what happened. And it was an ultra. I did a stand up paddle and I know, you know, the area from Catalina to to my front yard in Redondo beach. And so I bonked, I did the nutrition wrong. I came out too fast. I did all the rookie things that everyone told me not to do. And I still miscued it. And so, um, I guess the mechanical question is how often do you get to a place where you're like, Oh God, I reached my limit and my mind's no longer, my brain's no longer working. Yeah. I go to that place quite often. In fact, one time I ran from San Diego to, to long beach. So I ran 95 miles and then I hopped in a,

a kayak and paddled the Catalina. So I know that I know that the crossing, you did go fuck yourself. So you, you went against current even, you know, like, yeah. Oh man. And the wind was blowing from the wrong direction. But anyway, then I hopped out of the kayak and ran the Catalina Marathon. So I timed it to get there at the start of the Catalina Marathon. And that was the conclusion of that adventure. And yeah, there were,

there were moments of deep hallucinations. On the paddle or on the marathon? More on the paddle. Yeah. Once I started running, you know, the sun had come up in the marathon? More on the paddle. Yeah. Once I started running, you know, the sun had come up in the morning when I started the run. And so, you know, I think sunlight has a lot to do with, you know, your circadian rhythms and kind of bringing you back to life. But on the paddle at night, in the early morning, I was seeing all kinds of things. I mean, seriously, I just want to pause and say amazing. And again, like freakish, you know, I know, I know that we see some people base jump,

but we missed that they jumped off the curb when they were two. And so there's a, you know, there's like small steps that lead to this amazing thing. There's no chance though, that you say, I'm going to go do all that because i want to find myself there are so many other ways that you can do it and well i want to hear the narrative of the paddle and i want to swap kind of stories there with you but i don't want to get lost in that i i think i think it's almost like you've got these golden insights, these coins of brilliance that are almost so foreign to people because the way that you achieve them is so out of touch with what most people do that it almost makes it like that insight is not for them. And I think that probably pains you to hear that and that's why i'm like okay make how do you make superman human i don't know because i see you dean as like when you you

you're the first person that introduced me to ultra and i've watched you from a distance for a long time and been like wow like what is he about so, I'm like, I'm like a kid in a candy store having this conversation with you. So I don't want to be, I don't want to be rude by saying why keep double clicking and, but it's still there for me. It is still there for me. Yeah. I, you know, it's funny when I navigate through a day, I interact with people that are, their reality is so different than mine. And my experiences have been so different from theirs that it's hard to connect. And I think that divide is growing because I think, you know, very few people live the sort of lifestyle I live and do the things I do.

I mean, ultramarathoners certainly do. And that's why I think I feel comfortable around other ultra marathoners, but it's, our experience is so different than most people that it's, it's, there's no commonality there. And it just feels like I'm interacting with a different species sometimes in the course of a normal day. So people have heard me talk about this and I'll, I'd love to hear how you resonate or don't with it, is that there's a loneliness that comes with thin-haired experiences. For example, if you were the only person to summit, let's just use Everest because people can kind of get a mental image of it. But if you were the first and only person to ever do it, and nobody else was able to do it behind you, how do you describe to your family and your friends and your loved ones, like, the smell of that air and the hardships that you had to go through to figure out how to take that next step and the way that your body aches and the brilliance of the coloring, you know,

that environment. So the way your lungs burn, I mean, so there's a loneliness in trying to convey or communicate or connect with other people. So first part one, do you recognize that to be true for you? And then if so, how do you not find an isolated, depressed state on a regular basis? And maybe you say, no, no, no, I know depression. No, I think, again, you're very perceptive. And certainly this last year has been a real struggle for me because I realized how much I enjoyed being immersed in my quote unquote tribe. And that was when I would go to do a fun run or go to a marathon and be surrounded with like-minded people that have like experiences and feel very comfortable around them. And it used to be a bit overwhelming when you're so

saturated in that crowd. But now that I've been isolated from that crowd for over a year, I very much miss it. And I felt very alone this past year. Thankfully, through my writing, I can kind of express where my head is at. And again, with social media now, I interact with people that are like-minded and have like experiences, but the course of going to the market, for instance, is a very lonely experience. I don't know if I view other people as shallow, but I don't think some people have as rich of an experience base as some of us because they've lived maybe a more secluded or sheltered life. Like they haven't done some of the crazy outlandish things that we've been discussing. And I think a lot of times when people read my books, it gives them permission to do that. And they find this whole new reality and it really opens up who they are. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth.

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your routine without complicating it, I'd love for you to check them out. Head to calderalab.com slash finding mastery and use the code finding mastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash finding mastery. I hear and feel the loneliness in the words that you're choosing. And I also just heard you end that expression with hope. So I see you working in both ways, like the honesty to say, yep, I feel that too. I understand what you're talking about. I've lived it for more than days at a time, but maybe months and years at a time, that sense of disconnect. And then, so do you, is that how you work? Like you have the courage

to sort out the truth, to go sort out the truth from a physiological, psychological, emotional standpoint, and then put words to it with the hope that your experience in life could possibly help others. I think you nailed it. I think that that's why I do what I do. I think that, you know, although it's, you know, running long distances by yourself is very self-absorbing, ultimately I think my mission is to spread this joy to others that I've experienced. This realm of experiences through running that you can experience is accessible to all and the joy and the, you know, and the suffering. I think that rich range of experiences ultimately enriches someone's life. And if I can share it in words and people can read it and, and try it themselves, it makes me very, it makes me feel like I have a purpose in life. It makes me feel fulfilled. Okay. I mean mean i want to underscore that in all the right ways

i gotta be honest i've never i've never spoken to a psychologist before but i'm feeling like i might want to like this has been a very uh illuminating conversation for me as well i you know you're asking some really deep questions and usually you know the the interviews that i do don't veer into this sort of territory. Oh, cool. Because I'm learning from you too. So that's where the best relationships work. The way that my father-in-law talked about is like a marriage.

He says, you go out into the world and bring some candies back and put them in the candy dish. And your wife will go out into the world, bring some candies back and put them in the candy dish. And your wife will go out into the world, bring some candies back and put them in the candy dish. And then you talk about the candies that you have. And some days you're not going to bring any back. But if neither, if both of you stop bringing candy back, the marriage is probably going to end, you know, after some time. So there's this mutual kind of thing that I'm feeling as well. It sounds like Halloween.

It depends on what you're wearing. I know. Yeah. Okay, good. Do you run more anxious or more depressed if you had to lean on one side of, you know, the emotional experience? Boy, I'm, I'm kind of vacillating between the two, you know, like an electron, I think. So you go back. And so are they extreme or are they just kind of hovering across midline? Yeah. How do you think about the movement of the electron? I think that, you know, nothing I do is in moderation.

That's what I thought you were going to go. Yeah. You know, I've never taken the midline in anything and it's just my hardwiring, but yeah, sometimes, you know, the depths of depression, you know, the depression is such a, I think an overused word and so amorphous, but I think that I would characterize my depression as an existential crisis. You know, the search for meaning as a human being, you know, when there really is. And when you really look at life, it is meaningless.

I mean, we're on a little orb in the middle of nowhere. And, you know, we're here for just a brief flash of time. And what is the purpose? You know, what is the meaning? And, you know, unfortunately, I ask those questions flash of time. And what is the purpose? You know, what is the meaning? And, you know, unfortunately, I ask those questions all the time. It's just there and there are no answers. I mean, you know, I started with Plato and, you know, and moved on from there. And no one has provided, you know, the answers to the meaning of life. And I don't know why I pontificate it so thoroughly and so obsessively, but that I think is what leads to my depression. It's just, there's no meaning. And, you know, on the opposite side of that, there's great joy with my family. There's great joy in seeing

friends. There's great joy when I can piece together a sentence like what you read that is very expressive. And what's in between? There is no in between. It's one or the other. And when you feel depressed, how do you engage with it? Is it a loneliness? Is it like you're in quicksand psychologically or quicksand physiologically? What does depression look and feel like for you? Agitation? Most men do depression with anger because it's so much easier to do anger than feel sadness, but I don't think that that's your experience. No, it's more of a, an emptiness, I think a hollowness again, that it's a purposelessness that, you know, we're just sailing rudderless through life and then it's gone. And so there's a, a sadness as well. I think, you know, I think, you know, I think it was Dolph Gajewski that said,

you know, suffering is the sole origins of human consciousness. Um, we don't think about it a lot, but life is suffering. Life is about loss. You know, that's the reality of it. I mean, none of us are going to live forever. We're going to watch, um, the people we love, uh, perish right before our eyes. And, and it's, it's, it's about loss and suffering. And these are dark, deep things that are reality. And sometimes I'm not so good at glossing over the fact that I'm mortal and that my life will come to an end just as my dog's life will come to an end as my father and mother's life will come to an end just as, you know, my dog's life will come to an end as my, my father and mother's life will come to an end. And some people I think are very good at just repressing that. My wife, for instance, these kinds of thoughts never even enter her mind. She's very, you know, she's very utilitarian. I mean, she executes through the day and she doesn't think about these sorts of things where I get, you these sort of thoughts and they occupy me entirely.

And if you have any answers to finding meaning in life, do share. No, but I do want to find meaning in this conversation right now is that you are speaking right to the center of truth. And so I think you're in it. My heart is pounding for two reasons. One is because I think, Dean, listening, reading your readings, watching what you've done, the courage that you have to go into the shadows and the recesses and the dark corners and get into the the um the hard parts of humanity and obviously you did it physically maybe first but it was a working laboratory to get to where you are my heart's pounding for for two reasons one is i feel your

pain and um i don't want to take it away because this is part two. I think you're right onto something significant, right on the other edge of where you're standing and experiencing, both in the loneliness and the placeholder for suffering is a loneliness and an emptiness. But right on the other side of this, I think is you're right there. You're knocking on the door of some really important time-tested deep questions of humanity. And I think in that emptiness,

you might find exactly what you're looking for. And so I'm speaking in code a little bit only because the non-duality nature of like Buddhism and this idea of heaven on earth from Christianity and the idea from Zoroastrianism is that when you get to the emptiness, that you get shot to the cosmos, I feel like you're knocking on the door. And so this is the path of enlightenment. And you're not going to get there by your room being at 72 degrees or 70 degrees, whatever's comfortable, and a stock refrigerator. It's likely not going to happen.

I'm not saying that I don't have that. But too many creature comforts lead to creature or comforting thoughts. And you are not, you're not, you're not turning your back on the hard questions of humanity of life. And so I knew I was going to love this conversation with you. Well, I mean, it's, and it's kind of ironic because I mean, here you and I are talking to, you know, I'll call myself middle-aged. You're a little bit younger than middle-aged, you know, successful white guys that have every creature comfort available to us. I mean, you know, people would say, well, why aren't you happy? I mean, you got money in the bank, you got a great house, you got a great family. You should be happy, you know, slap you around.

But it's so much more than that. And I think somebody who looks at us and says, well, you know, you have no right to feel depressed doesn't really get it. Yeah, I also think that it is a luxury to explore the deep questions, because if most of my mind is occupied with where's the shelter going to be and how am I going to put food in my children's mouth today, it's a different occupation of psychological energy. And so I get the luxury in this as well. But there's an opportunity as well. And so the opportunity is like, well, what are we doing here? What's, what is this all for? And I'll tell you a funny thing that I do that, um, Dean, I think that you will relate to. And most people think I'm really morbid, but when, when I say goodbye to somebody and one of our mutual friends, Kevin Lake will recognize this is that when I say goodbye in person,

I want to honor that I might not ever see you again. And so because that is so real for me that I try to work backwards from it and like really cherish the time I'm with people. And when I say goodbye, it's like just a moment preparing for the time when I won't get to do it. So it's preparing me for death with Kevin, with whomever that I'm fortunate enough to spend time with. So death is final from a physical form. And I'm curious what you think about death, what happens after the physical death takes place of the body. Maybe that's part of my problem. I think so much about what happens afterward. And, you know, I don't have any answers. I also think about the conversation that you have with anyone that you're saying goodbye to, because I've, you know, I lost my favorite friend, my kid sister on her 18th birthday. And all I think about, and this is decades ago,

but all I think about is what did I say to her last before I never saw her again? And I play that forward all the time when I say goodbye to people. We take life for granted, but when you live through something like someone being tragically killed right before your very eyes, you realize that nothing in life is sacred or nothing in life is permanent. How much of your unique experience in life, that trauma that you described, how much of that have you been able to grow from? Or how much of

it do you think you're circling the wagon to protect against those type of traumas to happen again? Well, I mean, I went through all of the stages of, you know, bereavement and grief. And, you know, I crawled into a bottle for 10 years. I just anesthetized myself essentially for 10 years after her death. I mean, I was in first in denial and then anger, like you wouldn't believe. And that anger was, you know, taken out of myself mostly and my family watching me go through what I went through. And then after, you know, after a decade of this, I crawled out and said, you know, what you can do at this point to best honor her is to live every second of your life to its fullest. And so I kind of went full circle and said, you know, just celebrate and honor her past and her memory with living your life in a better way versus,

you know, just trying to run from the pain, you know, embrace the pain, embrace the memories. And every time I think about her, you know, I have a, even as we're talking right now, I have, you know, I have a picture of her in my mind and it, you know, it makes me really sad, but I've, you know, dug into that sadness and I've, you know, unpacked that sadness and I haven't been afraid to face that sadness. And I think these are the same skills or, you know, qualities that I use when I'm suffering during a long race is welcome the pain, welcome the struggle, you know, welcome the challenge and just do the best that you can do in that moment. And, you know, that's all we can do as humans is, is to be our very best. And if you can be your very best in the moment, you know, you, there's a certain, you know, pride in that, I guess,

there's a certain sense of you know, fulfillment that you're just, you know, you did what you could, you didn't leave anything on the, on the course, you know, you, you give it your all. Oh, geez. And so I think so many of us, those emotions that you're just talking about are so overwhelming, that we'd rather drug it, drink it, sex it, you know, distract it with social media, eat it, whatever, like, we'd rather do something to fill the hole. And I think I just learned how you work, which is that you, you stare it down and it's like, you're like, okay, well that's happening. Whatever the feeling is or whatever. So feelings, emotions are different as you recognize, you know, emotion is the physical sensation, feeling is the psychological interpretation of it. And so I think that you, you're watching, and you're observing,

and you're exploring, and you're continuing to allow the emotion to build. And you're watching, from the feeling standpoint, you're watching how it's working. Is that close to how you do with, let's say, a triggering thought of anything? You know, death of a loved one all the way up into a sensation in your left ankle. Is that how you're doing it? I think it is. And I think it's, you know, originally I was afraid to approach the subject. I was afraid to approach her death. I was afraid to approach pain during a

race. And what I learned is that it's much better if you just open yourself to the pain and you accept the pain and you look at the pain as a growth experience and you just fully give yourself to that pain and, you know, experience the whole gamut and the range of emotions and feelings that you have when you, you know, when you, when you delve into something that's really, really painful to you. You know, people like if we walked down the street and you say, what do you want out of life? Nine out of 10. And I'm exaggerating just for the sake of the story would say, I just want to be happy. And I want other people, you know, peace and happiness in life. And I go, God bless us. Not a chance. Am I interested in that? I want all of the story, would say, I just want to be happy. And I want other people, you know, peace and happiness in life. And I go, God bless us, not a chance am I interested in that.

I want all of the emotions. I want to experience all of them. And so do you have a similar drive to experience all the emotions to their fullest? Yeah, I mean, very much so. And I never really thought of it in those terms until you just said it. And it's exactly like, some days I'm happy and that's fine. Other moments I'm not happy and that's fine as well. And I want to experience the most intense emotions possible, both the good and the bad. And, you know, I think that running is, you know, it's almost like a metaphor for life when you go and run a hundred miles. I mean, most people can't even imagine running a hundred miles nonstop, but when you run a hundred miles nonstop, you experience all of these things. And, you know, the more exhausted you become and the more the ego is beaten out of you, you know, the richer the experience becomes. It's that ego bit that you just hit the more the ego is beaten out of you you know the richer the experience becomes it's that ego bit that you just hit on at the end that is like it's all of that psychology of protection and presentation that when it finally fades away and you meet yourself oh

you know it's like that integration is um there's lots of ways to get there and and but that integration i mean i don't know a better word than say something like it's magical because it seems so rare and astounding uh astonishing and so i'll tell you a fun little story this is back to the ultra that i did and um so i was at about my uh hour six and a half and I, dude, I was cranking. I was like, I came out too fast. I was like 5.7 miles an hour. And, um, and I was bonking and I didn't get the nutrition game right. And then it was hour six and a half, call it 27 miles.

I hit a, uh, 3.1 mile an hour, um, current straight on. And I was doing 3.1 miles an hour for 47 minutes. This is where it went sideways for me. And then so- Were you crawling? Oh, it was a mess. So I did everything I could to do one stroke at a time. And I think that the riptide, the current broke. I didn't break it. I didn't get out of it because I didn't have anything really left. I think it broke, the tide shifted, and then I was able to get out of it. But I will tell you what happened on the other side is that I met myself in a way that I wasn't able to do for the 40 some years before. And I was

talking to my mentor about it and he goes, Mike, I just, and he's known me since I was a kid. He's mentored my emotional, psychological life forever. And he goes, Mike, I mean, seriously, think about what it took. Think about how guarded this part of you, because there was this beautiful insight that I realized about me. And he said, think about how guarded that was. And now that you're free from it, he says, I wonder if you're able to stay there, or are you going to go back to protection? I was like, oh, fuck. There it is. And I was like, no, no, no, it's there. It's a lot. Well, some of those habits of guarding are real too. So how do you deal with that part? When you step into the truth of who you are, there's a real revelation. That's funny. There's some awakening that takes place. But all of the old patterning that was protecting you from that vulnerable truth, how do you work with reorganizing that patterning?

Yeah, change is hard, right? I mean, we tend to just revert to what's comfortable to get through life. I mean, we all have our protectionism and, you know, those mechanisms we turn to in certain situations that just make it easier to navigate through. And, you know, to me, as you throw yourself at these experiences over and over again, I mean, I think, you know, make it easier to navigate through. And, you know, to me, as you throw yourself at these experiences over and over again, I mean, I think, you know, the Oracle of Delphi said, know thyself. Well, how do you know thyself? You know thyself by putting yourself in uncomfortable situations and revealing to yourself who you really are by facing different and hard and unusual circumstances. And it sounds like to me, that ultra marathon is exactly what, that's exactly what happened to you. I mean,

you thought you knew yourself, but then when you really got to a point you'd never been at before in your life, you saw a whole new person emerge. And it wasn't a notch on the belt thing. It was like was like oh this is my core issue of all the things this is the thing that is present with me and i'm crying out there and i'm you know i'm and i'm i had to get through all the anger and all this stuff and then and i'm like this is this is it oh my god and so that awakening um ah okay so you hit something really important i'll skim over that for a minute though so you hit something really important. I'll skim over that for a minute, though. But you hit something really important.

It's like getting uncomfortable. Without having to run 70 miles or some outrageous number that you're able to do, how do you help the non-athletic get to their emotional edge? What would be some things that you could suggest for folks? You know, I think that we need to shift the paradigm on comfort. And I think that the only way you're going to grow, any of us are going to grow, is by putting ourselves in situations where we feel very uncomfortable.

I mean, I think something, you know, the statistics, I think, say that people would rather face death than public speaking. You know, people so fear public speaking, well, then have the courage to be a public speaker, you know, do something and maybe even fail at it and feel like a fool. But experience those feelings that are outside of your normal range of feelings. And that's how you grow, you know, and outside your normal range of emotions as well. How important are other people's opinions to you? Yeah, we are,

we are just such creatures of fearing what other people think of us and the opinion. Is that true for you? Less so nowadays. Yeah, less so nowadays. You know, I think the good thing with me is that I don't have any skeletons in the closet. You know, I was always afraid that, you know, some people hold me in very high regard. You know, a lot of the fan mail letters I get, you know, they start with the first sentence, you changed my life. And to me, I thought, well, you better put on a facade of being someone worthy of that. And then I kind of chipped away and said, who is someone worthy of changing someone else's

life? Well, that's just a person that is what they are. And so now I'm a little bit less guarded. I, like I said, I, I'm not afraid to expose myself because I'm kind of like just a normal guy. There's nothing sinister about me and there's nothing really extraordinary about me. I'm just a normal person. So I'm less concerned now with what others think of me. And does that, I mean, that's kind of a long-winded answer to your question. No, I mean, I think you've done a lot of work to get to that. And maybe you could rewind back, let's call it 20 years ago, when people's opinions did matter. How did you navigate that? I didn't express my feelings. I didn't expose who I really was. I think that's what most people do, right? We put a shield around ourselves so that we're not hurt by other people saying things like, oh, I don't like you or, you know, I don't agree with you.

And maybe we could map this question to that concept. And the question I want to ask you is like when you're at let's call it a threshold moment in one of your ultras and just pick a mile where it's hard it's really hard and you start to go okay there it is I'm out of place how do you work with the next step the next movement when your body is burning when when your mind is saying, I think you should probably hang this one up. It's not worth it. You don't need this. Well, I mean, you're asking a very tricky question because, you know, I'm a kind of a visible guy because, you know, I've kind of been doing this for a long time and I've written books about ultra marathoning. So when I'm failing during an ultra marathon, it's not just the physical failing,

but there is humiliation because, you know, I kind of have a target on my back. You know, a lot of people say, wow, I beat Dean Karnasas. And so I've had to absorb that as well and get comfortable with the fact that, you know, you're, you're no longer a young kid. You're not going to be on the podium the way you used to be. And, and reconciling with that, which, you know, if you have an ego at all, that's going to crush it. Right. I know a lot of people that gave up racing because they were no longer winning. And I said, I'm not going to be that guy. I'm going to have a commitment just to keep doing the best that I could. And I don't care if other people, you know, pound their chest and say, I beat Dean Karnasas. So be it, you know, I'm just going to go out there and, and do the best I can. You can't control, you know, the, what other people do. You can't control the, you know, the, the environment,

the conditions, the weather. So, you know, for me, I had to really, you know, me I had to really you know swallow my pride if you will and not be afraid to eat crow when I didn't do so well in a race and so when I hit that moment where it's physically painful and I don't think I can keep going physically I also you know reconcile with the feelings like and and you're gonna suck your results are gonna suck you're gonna finish mid pack and a lot of people can say wow he's no good anymore. I beat him. And for me, I've really worked at being comfortable with that. Okay, so I really worked at it. I was going to ask, was this an eloquent handoff of wisdom? Or you knew this was coming in some respect and you're like oh it's

here now and my body's changing and um the pack is catching up because you're way out for so long uh way out ahead and or were you like oh shit like i'm falling behind these people are on my heels now oh they're shoulder to shoulder with Oh, and my sponsors are going to change. And like, was it which one was it? And then either way, how did you position to work through that phase of insight? You know, I mean, I literally experienced that whole range of feelings and thoughts and emotions that you just articulated. You know, I thought about, I'm not going to be able to get the sponsorships I used to be able to get. You know, mostly I thought about, I'm not going to be relevant. Like you're going to become in a

sport that defines who you are, you're going to become irrelevant. And, and, you know, those are, those are, those are hard things to, you know, to, to reconcile. And, you know to to reconcile and you know to me again it just said i looked inside and said you you just you love this sport you love to run this is who you are keep doing it it doesn't matter if you lose sponsors you lose sponsors you know i want to be the guy that that like i said is um you know 80 85 old, finishing at the very back of the pack, but still finishing. And that was the thought that you had early on that I said, I want to come back to, which is, it was hinting at that your identity was wrapped into what you do. And so is that the case for you, that you are what you do, or is it different than that? Meaning that, no, I am, I am partly what I do, but I, there's another part of me that

cannot be measured by how I do and what I do. You know, I think that I myself know that I go beyond just being an ultra marathoner, but I know that, you know, most people have file cards in their minds. And, you know, they, when you think of certain people, you know, that's their, that file card is that person. And I think a lot of people, when for credibility, but, you know, I really pride myself on my writing. That's something that I put a lot of effort into and I enjoy. And rarely do I get recognized as a writer. But, you know, you read a sentence of mine and I think, you know, it was pretty good. It was okay. And, you know, I don't get recognized for as being a writer.

I'm more known as this guy who runs crazy miles, but I think that, you know, no one is that, you know, unique directional or unique dimensional that they're just one thing. And I think that I'm, you know, something far beyond just an ultra marathoner. Who are you? I'm just a curious little kid trying to figure out my place in the universe. When you say kid, do you mean like a youthful spirit or a curious mind? Or like, I'm really kind of scared in this adult, a seemingly adult world that, you know, like people feel kind of dangerous. I think all of those things. I mean, I think that, you know, I love to play still. And I think,

you know, you talked about running with your son and how do you make running fun for your son. If you can think of running as play, then it's fun. And, you know, kids naturally love to run. It's just when you impose structure on them, you know, kids naturally love to run. It's just when you impose structure on them, you know, you've got to run this far and this fast, you got to run four laps around that track. It's, it's no longer play. But to me, you know, my mind is playful. It's curious. It's adventurous. It doesn't want to be taken seriously. It doesn't want to be an adult. You know, it doesn't want to be all these things. It still wants to have that, that, you know it doesn't want to be all these things it still wants to have that that you know childless childlike freshness of everything and when we if we go back to other people's opinions like when does it show up for you when that bell is like ringing really loudly like what are they

going to think of me what are they thinking me what are they going to think of me what are the unique moments that that does show up for you still? I guess being, you know, we all fear about being rejected, right? Of not fitting in, of being an outcast. And I think that I've come to the realization that I am somewhat of an outcast and so be it. You know, I'm just a little bit different in that regard. You know, I think a little bit differently and I conduct my life a little bit differently than, you know, and the accuracy to capture your understanding of it.

And so how do you finish this thought? It all comes down to... Living your life to the best of your ability. Were you trying to be the best early in your life, or your best? My best, always. And when you say to the best of your ability, how much of that is the decisions that you make, the choices that you choose, the thoughts that you have, or the actions that you take? How would you say it's more psychological or behavioral? That's a very good question. I would say it's, it's a hybrid of both. Yeah. And if you were to put some percentages on it, I don't think we did the percentages

earlier, but if you were to put percentages on it. Yeah, no, I would say my, my head leads my body. So I, I, I'm very much a thinker and I think a lot about my actions and inactions. And so I lead with my mind. Okay. All right. And so psychology is upstream to physiology? Or is physiology upstream to psychology? I would say psychology is at the front. It's in the driver's seat, yeah.

In the driver's seat. And when you say, I am Dean, what do you think about the I? Like, where is the I? So let me do it a little sharper. I guide my thoughts. I am aware of my thoughts. What is the I? Like, where do you locate that?

That's a really good question. You know, I realize my thoughts are molded through my experiences and so i try to uh engage in as wide uh a variety of experiences as possible so that my thoughts are from that worldview of having so many experiences that they're it's a it's a wise thought process. Does that answer your question? Mike said, get to the answer. Yeah, definitely does. And then if you were to sit down with a master, somebody who you say, there's so much I could learn from this person,

who would that be? Where would you sit with this person? And if you only had one question, what would the one question be? I'm just a runner. That's a heavy question. Well, let me ask it. Can it be any person living or dead or does it have to be someone alive? Either. either? You know, I think I want to sit down with my grandfather because he came to America with 14, he was 13 years old with $14 in his pocket in 1908. And, you know, he set a course to establish himself in America. But I also want to know his philosophy, because obviously, when I look at my parents, they're, you know, they're, they're, they're different, I would say, than the average American. I think they think and approach life a little bit differently. You know, my mom and dad are never beyond, you know, a shot of ouzo and some Greek dancing,

and to me, which is beautiful, no matter how bad things look, no matter how bad the situation, they're never beyond just, hey, let's great dance and laugh. And I think that characteristic came from my grandfather. So I'd want to sit down with him. He died when I was my young boy. Awesome. Okay. Last question is that how do you define or articulate mastery? How do you get your arms around that concept? I don't think that mastery is something you ever achieve. I think it's a pursuit that you constantly, constantly move toward. So again, I think that it's a journey, mastery. It's not an end in itself. Okay, cool. Couple quick hits. What's a book that, that you enjoy handing out to people?

Oh man, I go to the classics, Herodotus. Oh, you go way back. Okay. Greek. Yeah. I would go back further than that. I mean, if you haven't read Homer, I mean, the Iliad and the Odyssey is a good starting place. That's right. You're an ultra. You've got the discipline. Okay, great. And if there was one practice you would hope people could do to improve the quality of their life and the quality of others' lives in their community, what would that one practice be? Take care of your physical health. Don't overlook your physical health.

Okay. Love is? Is, is giving yourself up to someone. Success is? Being the man you are. It's one of the gifts I think that I love sharing with my son is that I say to him, I love you for who you are, not who you're becoming. And he looks at me like, thanks, dad. And so it's not about who you're becoming. It's like who you are right now. And so as a 12-year-old, I wonder how that's going to shape him, but I think he appreciates it. He didn't know his dad is the equivalent of

Abraham Maslow. Yeah, I know. Okay know okay so dean i just want to say thank you for um the wisdom the inspiration uh and the real insights that you've shared with us today so thank you this has been a heavy interview i mean this has been the most intimate interview i've ever conducted and i've done a lot of them but you've asked some really great questions so it's been a pleasure and i hope one day we can go surfing together. Oh, I would love that. I would, that would be awesome. And then I'm going to, in the show notes, I'm going to put your book and the whole thing. And, you know, if you search Dean, apparently it's the first Dean Karnasas is the first Dean that shows up. So you've got the market

around the word. Yeah, that's fine. I mean, fine. If, if you're cool with that, I mean, you can, you know, you can put my website if you want, but I, you know, people, people know how to find anyone these days. Yeah, absolutely. And I'm bullish on both of your books. And, uh, um, I want to say thank you for what you've added, uh, to my life and, um, hopefully this community's life. And so this conversation has been rich. And again, thank you, Dean. You have a good day. Take care, Mike. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button

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