Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Find Your Edges, Engage Your Fear – A Radical Approach to Wisdom | Akshay Nanavati

Episode Date: February 28, 2024

How many of us do everything we can to avoid pain and suffering? It’s a natural response, deeply ingrained to protect ourselves. But what if we didn’t run from suffering, and actively engaged and encouraged it to create meaning and purpose in our lives?That’s the philosophy of Akshay Nanavati – Iraqi war veteran, entrepreneur, extreme athlete, and author of Fearvana: The Revolutionary Science of How to Turn Fear Into Health, Wealth and Happiness. His unique take comes out of his military experience - his struggles with PTSD, alcoholism and debilitating depression - and he combines that personal story with neuroscience, religion, philosophy and tools for designing an amazing life.In his second appearance on Finding Mastery, Akshay takes us through the preparation for what will be his most daring endeavor yet: a 110 day, 1700 mile flat-ski trek across one of the most -- if not the most -- unforgiving environments on Earth: Antarctica. It’s never been done before. And he’s doing it alone.Akshay’s story and the insights he’s uncovered make for an exciting and thought-provoking conversation. You won’t want to miss it.NOW… To embark on this epic journey, Akshay needs some support. Let's come together as a community and help Akshay out! I’d love for you to consider supporting Akshay by donating to his project – myself and the FM team will be supporting as well. Let's show up and get this across the finish line! No one does it alone!_________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Finding Mastery is brought to you by Remarkable. In a world that's full of distractions, focused thinking is becoming a rare skill and a massive competitive advantage. That's why I've been using the Remarkable Paper Pro, a digital notebook designed to help you think clearly and work deliberately. It's not another device filled with notifications or apps.

It's intentionally built for deep work. So there's no social media, no email, no noise. The writing experience, it feels just like pen on paper. I love it. And it has the intelligence of digital tools like converting your handwriting to text, organizing your notes, tagging files, and using productivity templates

to help you be more effective. It is sleek, minimal. It's incredibly lightweight. It feels really good. I take it with me anywhere from meetings to travel without missing a beat. What I love most is that it doesn't try to do everything. It just helps me do one very important thing really well,

stay present and engaged with my thinking and writing. If you wanna slow down, if you wanna work smarter, I highly encourage you to check them out. Visit remarkable.com to learn more and grab your paper pro today. You have to go into the arena. The arena is where the wisdom lies. So what I'll be doing next November,

this is November, 2024. I will be attempting to be the first person ever to do a coast to coast ski crossing of Antarctica. I'll be dragging a 400 pound first person ever to do a coast-to-coast ski crossing of Antarctica. I'll be dragging a 400-pound sled for 1,700 miles. 1,700 miles. 1,700 miles. 110 days completely alone. Hey, welcome back, or welcome to the Finding Mastery podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Michael

Gervais. I trade in trading a high-performance psychologist. Returning to the podcast today is extreme athlete, entrepreneur, and author Akshay Nanaviddy. And he's back to once again redefine the boundaries of fear and personal achievement. In his first appearance, Akshay took us through the harrowing experiences of dodging IEDs in Iraq, battling PTSD, alcoholism, and depression. He also shared how these trials laid the groundwork for Fearvana, his revolutionary book and approach to transforming fear, suffering, and adversity into health, wealth, and happiness. This time around, Akshay's setting his sights even higher, preparing for a solo 110-day ski journey across the blinding nothingness of Antarctica. As Akshay gears up for his most daring adventure yet, we'll dive deep into the mindset of a man who's made a life out of pushing limits. From the battlefield to frostbite,

Akshay's story is a testament to the power of embracing the dark to find the light. As we know, no one does it alone. And Akshay is no exception. As we discussed in the conversation, he needs support to get across the finish line. So if this conversation resonates with you in any way, I would love for you to consider supporting him by donating to this project. And you spell that F-E-A-R-V-A-N-A, Fervana.com, where you'll find a link to be able to donate to his Antarctica expedition. And of course, any contribution is deeply appreciated. So with that, let's dive right into this conversation with Akshay. Akshay, I am so stoked to have you back and have this conversation with you. It's really exciting what you've been up to. And I just want to check in.

Like, how are you? All is going great. Couldn't be better. Life is magnificent right now. And I feel very blessed and grateful. Is that a normal state for you? It is. I mean, I always feel like that, I would say for the most part.

But right now, things are just even better. You know, I'm now about to get married in six days, got engaged a few months ago. So I feel very blessed getting ready for Antarctica. I love the suffering, obviously, that it entails. The most stressful part is the fundraising. But other than that, life is going really good. Awesome. Okay, so let's jump into it. Actually, before we do, before we get into what I'm up to, I'd love to ask you a question, if you don't mind. I'm down.

Yeah. Yeah. Very cool. Like, it sounds like you've been thinking about this a little bit. Yeah. Okay. I love your work. Studied you tremendously for a long time. And, you know, we've been in touch obviously for a long time.

And you work with the best of the best in the world. And what I'm super curious about is people who are the absolute best of the craft, you know, like let's say the NBA, you have to be a legend to even be in the NBA. You're talking top 1%. That's right. But then there's the likes of the Kobe Bryants and Michael Jordans of the world who even among the best are superior. They're at a different level. They're legends among legends, right? What is it about people like that? What are they doing differently? How are they thinking differently? Because you work with people in that level. So I'm very curious to know what makes them the way they are in terms of not just their physical behaviors, but their patterns of thinking that everybody else is not doing.

That's a very cool question. Early, like let's go 20, 25 years ago, I was obsessed with that question. And I set out to understand what's the golden thread that ties those legends of legends to use your language together. And I couldn't find anything. I couldn't find a commonality amongst them. So I'm going to answer this three ways. One is I'm equally, as much as about what I'm about,

how I'm about to answer this, I'm equally as interested in how you've been thinking about it and why that is important to you. So let's pause that one for a minute. The one you're probably looking for is the insights that I've learned working with those folks and how I've metabolized the way that they show up in the world and their practices. I'll get to that. The third one is that we took what I would consider true masters of craft that have been on the podcast. We took all of the conversations of those masters and pushed it through a model, basically an AI model.

This was done about six years ago before AI was well-known. So it was a machine learning model. We pushed it through to see if we could find the themes, the streams, and the applied insights of these brilliant masters. One of the things that we found that was orthogonal to what I would have imagined and what the research of sport

and high-performance psychology suggest, they don't set goals. Yeah, you're looking at me the way I looked at the data, of sport and high performance psychology suggest. They don't set goals. Yeah. You're looking at me the way I looked at the data, which is like, what? So they didn't, they were not interested in setting goals. It was something that it felt like, this is me extrapolating from the insight,

is that that was slowing them down. That goals are really important, but it's too mechanical for the contour of mastery. So if you think about a stack for just a minute, and you think of the highest part of the stack, it's mastery. One click under is high performance. Click under that is thriving under pressure.

Okay, so you're doing pretty good, right? Yeah. Underneath that is performing under pressure. Okay, so you're doing pretty good, right? Underneath that is performing under pressure, then performing, then micro choking, then choking. So you can see this stack, right? Full choke, you know exactly what it is. What might grab your attention is the differentiation between mastery and high performance.

So with mastery, so high performance is like, I'm clutch, I get it done high performance is like, I'm clutch. I get it done. I'm consistent. I bring it. You know, moments are not too big. I know how to dig deep. Yeah.

Mastery, there's a contour to it. There's a feeling and a commitment that is different than the commitment of high performance. So high performance is really about being able to do it on command at a high level okay mastery and i'm using the word again because i don't have a better word right now there's a there's a shape and a feeling i'm saying contour to the way that they're approaching life so true masters just like high performers they have vision. They have a compelling idea of what the future could be for themselves and others. And high performance is like, I need to execute. And mastery is like, there's just shape and feel to it

that's different. And in mastery, there's a commitment to mastery of self and craft. And in high performance, there's a commitment to mastery of craft, right? Like being able to execute. So when I think, the time I've spent with the folks that are extraordinary, the legends of legends, to use your language, there's a commitment to honesty that feels pretty

accurate to me. Again, I hesitate with a pause because there's some freaks that they are just built differently. And they apply 75% of their mental capability, but they've got like this genius level physical IQ. Right, and so there are freaks that jump 42 inches after eating pizza and a six pack of beer. Like, so there's always those that I just need to kind of put in a little,

not a box, but like just kind of put them off to the side a little bit. But for the most part, there's a commitment to honesty that is uncommon. There's a commitment to mastery of self and craft and there often is a purpose that is bigger than them. So they transform from high performance into that space of that contour and feeling of mastery of self craft and purpose, and there's a rare commitment in the honesty of getting to the truth of what is holding them back, supporting them in themselves and others.

So it's that commitment to honesty that holds up above all else. And then the last thing I'll say is many of them in the, not in the early agitated stages of like high performance, but in the later phase of mastery, the relationships in their lives are really important. And so not in the early narcissistic, obsessive, anxious state. It's more about them. And that's why I downgrade to high performance. And you can be a high performer and still be one of the best in the world.

In that category that I'm talking about. You could actually be a complete knucklehead and be so like a disaster in every part of your life, but somehow you get it together. You just get enough of the booze out of your system to show up on the court and you're ripping triple doubles. Okay, but that space of mastery that I think we're talking about

fundamentally feels different when you're around them. So I don't know if that helps you or makes it more confusing to you. No, I love that. I love that. That's a really cool answer. That actually, I mean, I think I've even heard you talk about this, is that, you know, people, we often talk about doing hard things. And conventionally, we think about doing hard things in the physical realm.

But I've heard you talk about the value of doing hard things in the emotional realm. Well, it's always available. Going to that space. The emotional state is always available. Physically, you oftentimes need time under tension. So to do things physically hard, there's like a buildup to get to that, you know, let's call it like the 26th mile on a marathon

or 24th mile, you know, like whatever that might be for somebody. But emotionally, it's always available right now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And there's a little small micro choice. Am I going to tell the truth? Am I going to take the step towards honesty? Or am I going to protect and hold back,

shape shift? Am I going to contour or conform my response? Or am I going to hide a little bit? You know that and I know that. And the more often we can make that small micro choice towards being honest in a way that doesn't push people away, but a way that honors the space between us. Yeah.

And if you can get into that level of awareness and level of commitment, it's really pretty remarkable. I love that. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I can see it. I can see it in your eyes, actually. Yeah.

Yeah. What is happening for you right now? No, because that's like for me, too. As you know, I do have done things like the darkness retreats and uncovering those depths of your own soul to confront them with the truth. And being willing to sit with that truth because you might not like what you see the deeper you go within. Usually you don't. Yeah. Like you get past past there's an asteroid

layer and there's somewhere like you know yeah yeah it's like but facing that is what allows you to i mean one of my favorite quotes of all time from carl jung he says until you make the unconscious conscious it will direct your life and you will call it fate and to go deeper into those spaces i think is the greatest most most profound, challenging, but beautiful hero's journey, if you will. I'm going to pause the conversation here for just a few minutes to talk about our sponsors. Finding Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Solutions. In any high-performing environment that I've been part of, from elite teams to executive boardrooms, one thing holds true. Meaningful relationships are at the center

of sustained success. And building those relationships, it takes more than effort. It takes a real caring about your people. It takes the right tools, the right information at the right time. And that's where LinkedIn Sales Navigator can come in. It's a tool designed specifically for thoughtful sales professionals,

helping you find the right people that are ready to engage, track key account changes, and connect with key decision makers more effectively. It surfaces real-time signals, like when someone changes jobs or when an account becomes high priority, so that you can reach out at exactly the right moment with context and thoroughness that builds trust. It also helps tap into your own network more strategically, showing you who you already know that can help you open doors or make a warm introduction. In other words, it's not about more outreach. It's about smarter, more human outreach.

And that's something here at Finding Mastery that our team lives and breathes by. If you're ready to start building stronger relationships that actually convert, try LinkedIn Sales Navigator for free for 60 days at linkedin.com slash deal. That's linkedin.com slash deal. For two full months for free. Terms and conditions apply. Finding Mastery is brought to you by David Protein. I'm pretty intentional about what I eat, and the majority of my nutrition comes from whole foods. And when I'm traveling or in between meals, on a demanding day certainly, I need something quick that will support the way that I feel and

think and perform. And that's why I've been leaning on David Protein Bars. And so has the team here at Finding Mastery. In fact, our GM, Stuart, he loves them so much. I just want to kind of quickly put him on the spot. Stuart, I know you're listening. I think you might be the reason that we're running out of these bars so quickly. They're incredible, Mike. I love them.

One a day. One a day. What do you mean one a day? There's way more're incredible, Mike. I love them. One a day, one a day. What do you mean one a day? There's way more than that happening here. Don't tell. Okay. All right. Look, they're incredibly simple. They're effective. 28 grams of protein, just 150 calories and zero grams of sugar. It's rare to find something that fits so conveniently into a performance-based lifestyle and actually tastes good. Dr. Peter Attia, someone who's been on the show, it's a great episode by the way, is also their chief science officer. So I know they've done their due diligence in that category. My favorite flavor right now is the chocolate chip cookie dough. And a few of our teammates

here at Finding Mastery have been loving the fudge brownie and peanut butter. I know, Stuart, you're still listening here. So getting enough protein matters. And that can't be understated, not just for strength, but for energy and focus, recovery, for longevity. And I love that David is making that easier. So if you're trying to hit your daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash finding mastery. Let's jump right back into the conversation. We can't get there with patterns of busyness, patterns of distraction, patterns of numbness, patterns of needing to look a certain way. Patterns of valuing performance over truth.

So I love that you are connected to Carl Jung. He's a deep thinker. Yeah. Yeah. And so tell me about that trip that you went on for the darkness retreat. So I've done this twice. I did the first time I did seven days in a dark room,

darkness and isolation. And the first time was silence as well. The second time was last year. I did 10 days. Did you do Mexico or up North? First time was in Germany. You did it with Germany. And the second time was in Mexico.

Oh, so you didn't do our friend up North. The one in Oregon? Yeah. No, I haven't. I didn't know about that one until somewhere recently. Yeah. Because I think it's relatively new. It is.

The Sky K retreats. Yeah, it is. But this one I did was last year in Mexico. Okay. And Mizunte. So 10 days in complete darkness, silence, and isolation. These are just for folks in the community that are listening. There's not many of these.

There's not. Yeah. It's really, yeah. But it's a difficult setup. Like complete darkness is hard to come by. It is. Passing the tray of food has to have a second chamber of darkness. Yeah.

You can't just sort of do it in your home. People often say, can I just do it? But you'll have ambient light. That's right. And if you have ambient light, you can still get the experience of stillness, but you won't get the hallucinogenic light shows that you experience when you're in extended periods of dark for a long time. If you're in a deeply padded environment

where sound is so muted that it's awkward, that can be crazy making for people. Did you go into that? It wasn't, you could still hear. Okay, so you didn't have- It wasn't, you could still hear. Okay, so you didn't have- It wasn't, yeah, there wasn't complete silence in terms of that. We call that noble silence

as opposed to like true silence. So noble silence is like you're honoring not speaking. You're honoring not making eye contact. You're honoring the silence that happens within you. And you're not trying to, if you're at a public, but if you're at a multi-person experience, you're literally doing what I'm doing. Like you might acknowledge that they're there,

but you're not trying to connect or engage with the other person during that part of the retreat. Noble silence. Yeah. It's awesome, isn't it? It's awesome. But although with that said, the second time I wasn't, I chose to speak out loud.

First time I chose to be silent. The second time I chose to speak because the first time I was going more to kind of heal, I'd gone through a very challenging divorce without going deep into it. My ex-wife got caught up in a cult and our marriage ended. I broke my sobriety. So I wanted to heal. It's funny to say not to go deep into it. And you mentioned like a lot of stuff. I was like, that was an absolute disaster disaster but we did hit on that on our first conversation we did i think yeah because i had just come back from the darkness that first time i believe when we spoke just came back from the darkness how about that's the title of this podcast love it dare coming back from the darkness yeah it does feel sometimes when you go into those deep places like the fear is that you're going to fall into a deep hole and never come out.

You're going to fall into a thousand pieces. Yeah. And like, it's going to be overwhelming. But the other side of it is. It's that you, because I mean, to your point about masters not setting goals, why I especially love that. And I didn't think about in so many terms is that because every one of us, we don't know what we don't know.

Right. So you have to be open to, because if you're operating with and setting a path from this version of you, you're limited by the constraints of this version of you. So to achieve something new, you have to surrender. You have to be receptive to call it whatever you want, the mysticism of the universe, the something that is going to shatter this paradigm of reality for yourself. And so the darkness really opened me up to that experience of surrender and seeing what will be revealed that this version of me or that version of me was not even fully aware of. Okay. So let's pause for this reason. Let's go, let's zoom way out and understand your framework. Okay. So is there a spiritual framework you're working from? Yes.

Which is? I wouldn't, I mean, I don't operate from any religion. The closest I would ascribe to is Buddhism, but it's kind of a combination of everything and what I personally, my own version of what I believe God to be. I don't personally believe in a higher power God. I think God is an expression of humanity at its finest, its ability to transcend the limitations of our mortal self to achieve the quote unquote impossible. So for example, have you seen Hacksaw Ridge?

I have. Desmond Doss pulling 75 people off a cliff in World War II. Right. Sometimes dragging them as far as a football field while being shot at all night. That was quote unquote impossible. He did it, right? And so we transcend the limitations of the self to achieve extraordinary. Okay. So you've got a spiritual framework. Yes. More like Buddhism in practice, like awakening your own Buddhahood. Exactly. You're, you're awakening your own Buddhahood is what you said. And so not deity based, not, but you said God,

what I would, I use the term God. Yes. Okay. So God is the awakening of the Buddha within. Absolutely. Okay. And then when, when that takes place, you transcend what we would perceive to be the limits that we would understand humans could do. Absolutely. Hacksaw Ridge is one of them. Exactly. Okay. Got it. That's fine. Okay. Very cool. And then, and then that's a spiritual framework. That's a philosophy of life. It sounds like, and then do you have an extension of what happens after we physically die? So what is their life after this form? I do not believe in that. Okay. So you're all in right now for whatever number of years you have.

This is all philosophy based as well. Is there reincarnation? If there is, I don't believe in it, but know no no i'm just i'm just here for you yeah yeah okay so got it so you so with that sense of urgency you're like i want to maximize my time here yes and many of the world religions do support a fear-based approach okay and your your book fervana we're gonna nod to that here in a minute, but the fear-based approach is don't screw this up now. Cause if you screw up this 90 years you have here or 90 minutes, we don't know how much longer or nine, we don't know how much longer

we're going to have. Don't screw it up because if you screw it up, you know, you go to that dark place. You go to, you go down there. Okay. So I'm being bombastic here a little bit, but can you talk about fear for just a moment and how that squares with your life philosophy? To snowball off what you just said, I think you can operate from both a place of fear and love and they can coexist. They're often framed as these enemies, right?

But I mean, Joseph Campbell, the cave you fear to seek holds the treasures, you know, holds the treasures you need kind of thing. So I'm always choosing from both those places. Everything I do training for 110 days across Antarctica terrifies me, absolutely terrifies me. So fear is a very valuable mechanism in I believe even the fear of death is which is again, often demonized as you know, why fear death? It's this inevitable thing. I get that it's inevitable, but fearing death is an incredibly powerful tool to enhance the flavor of life. And so I use fear as a constant tool to actually fear to me kills complacency. And I don't just mean complacency in training for my craft complacency in life, complacency

in all areas of life. So fear is powerful in that. And I use it all the time. It's an interesting framing because I'm now I'm in my, I'm moving from my philosophical, you know, appreciation into a technical, which is fear. And what was the other? I often hear those as being sort of, yeah. And so I don't know, technically, if I can be in a state of fear and love at the same time. The research would suggest not, or at least my understanding of the research. But it doesn't mean like if you go to a, I'll just pull on my Italian roots that identify with an Italian wedding or an Irish, I've got some Irish stuff in me and an Irish funeral, like you'll toggle back between laughing hysterically at a joke or something, and then snot snorting tears like, like back bang, bang. Right. Okay.

But they're separate. They're there. Of course, there's a, um, a bridge between them. There's a connective tissue, but having the two at the same time is not my experience nor my understanding of the research. So, but I can toggle back and forth. Would you agree on that? Are you seeing or experiencing it differently than? I think, yes, you can toggle back and forth. But in my spiritual journey, as I've continued to evolve, I have found that you can actually be one when you're sort of in that alignment, awakening your Buddhahood, you know, pure oneness, they can coexist as one. In my spiritual journey, as I've

progressed through life, I have found that you can be in a state of these two seemingly contradictory forces coexisting at one, I would define these moments as an experience of enlightenment. I don't personally believe enlightenment is a destination because until death, there's always more to grow, more to serve, more to be, you know, but like as a very concrete example, when I was sitting in a dark room, the brightest white light I've ever seen in my entire life was sitting in a completely dark room. I mean, it was so blinding. I was covering my eyes like this. I was touching my eyelids because I couldn't, I couldn't tell if they were closed or open. So here I am in this, in a visceral experience of seeing two contradictory forces, darkness and light, coexisting.

Even to this day. So as I mentioned, right, I recently got engaged. So after about two months together, we got engaged, and life was going so good with her. I was feeling on top of the world. Everything was great. So I told her one evening, I was like, hey, babe, I want to actually go into the depths of sadness and pain a little bit to feel the contrast of this, of this, because there's value in contrast. It's you can't know a summit without a valley. So I actually sat down that night, watch scenes from war movies, it was watching the movie The Covenant, breaking down crying, feeling guilt, feeling pain, but I

was happy in that pain. There was value to that pain, because it allows me to know the other side, the other side of whatever the duality may be, right? In life, there's a series of dualities. Ego, humility, light and dark, life and death, darkness and light, you know, pain and pleasure. You're describing something that mildly to moderately depressed episodic experiences that people have. Not a chronic, not a dysthymia, not a major depressive episode, but this kind of episodic light touch of depression where people say, I don't know, there's an aliveness to how much I'm feeling. I just don't feel like I can get out of it the way I would want to,

which is why it's a disorder, right? That feeling like you can't turn it up or turn it down. But that often we'll report there's an aliveness being so in touch with fragility, the sadness of whatever, because we're numb and just kind of ripping on busy, most of our lives. Is that what you're pointing to? Or is it, you're more pointing towards the contrast between the peaks and the valleys that you want to understand the depth so you can have a higher peak, you know, higher peaks. Yeah. It's consciously creating contrast. So let me drill in one more time. Are you feeling in that sadness, you say you're also had happiness. Did you say that? I'm feeling bliss. I'm you say you're also had happiness. Did you say that? I'm feeling bliss.

Bliss. I'm feeling it's not a traditional. In the nanosecond that you're crying and sad and like whatever, you're also having bliss. Yes. See, I don't know that. What I know is for me is that I can frame something a certain way. Teach me. How does this work for you? I wasn't, and I didn't know this was possible. It was kind of these experiences like the darkness.

And I experienced these momentary glimpses of enlightenment on the edge, right? Whether it be in darkness, whether it be on expedition in Antarctica, where you feel one with all that is. I mean- Okay, so that's how you're framing enlightenment. Yes.

At one with all that is. It's the polarities existing as one. Okay, so the non-duality. Yes. So enlightenment, you're embracing and embodying non-duality. Yes. Okay, that makes sense to me. I was caught up in my too much of a technical head to even be close to enlightenment here. So okay, good. All right. And that's the very nature of it because you can't conceptualize enlightenment right the inherent limitations of conceptual frameworks and even words is that they are limited by the constructs that create those words it has to be pure experience yeah so i can we can talk about all far below exactly words are limited right by our constructs of reality so how do do you think about your position that you're taking towards life?

Is it, are you an athlete? Are you an explorer? Are you a philosopher? I mean, I don't want to be a reductionist in any way because we're just talking about being aligned with all that is. But if there was a way that you were framing how you're doing life, how would you begin to capture that? If I had to define it in that one word,

I would call myself an explorer at the core fit, right? And not in the Edwardian sense of it, in the traditional sense, because I'm not exploring the traditional, like the 1900s when they were explorers. I've heard it been referred to the Edwardian sense of where they're exploring new terrains. Edwardian?

Edwardian. Edwardian. Yeah, I've just heard British explorers refer to it that way when they're exploring new terrain. So when Amundsen went to the South Pole, he was exploring truly, right, new frontiers. Where I'm going in Antarctica, for example, or everywhere I've been, it's mapped. The human beings have kind of set foot. Right. So for me, it's exploration within.

And the external places I go ultimately serves as mirrors to my soul, right? As mirrors to the human soul that I seek to explore. So the physical frontier is meant to be a mirror to your soul. To the human soul, to open up those doors and see what you find on the other side. Why do you need to go to the frontier? Because if you stay in the mundane, you can't explore something new. You're trapped in the frameworks, in the patterns, in the constraints of normality, normalcy.

You can find everything you need on a pillow. You can find everything you need. I do think the sanctification of the mundane is a very spiritual experience and not denying that. There isness of all of that. You know, I've even, one, I think it was a rabbi who said to me, if I had to define the essence of spirituality, I would say it's the sanctification of the mundane. Cool thought. Yeah. And I do, I do resonate with that, but having played on some very extreme edges, it opens a door into the soul that cannot be opened.

Otherwise, I fundamentally agree with you. I'm pushing because I think that. extreme edges, it opens a door into the soul that cannot be opened otherwise. I fundamentally agree with you. I'm pushing because I think that the frontier is not available to everybody. The frontier that you're going to is not available to everybody. But we all do have our edges. We all do have frontiers of course okay yeah you're going into um low traffic it maybe even uncharted and there's maps to your point but yeah i mean there will be parts of it where so i think no human being has ever said but right yeah so part of it like there's a stitching that you're doing which is really rad i i just want to just hold space and explore with you that we can there is a frontier within. Yeah.

You mentioned that earlier. That's a radical frontier that nobody can write for you. It is unmapped. It is uncharted. And you can play on the edges there or play it safe in the center. Yeah. The physical frontier is not the same for everybody. And some people like finding mastery, one of our core

tenants here is to be off access, to be off access and authentic. And so, you know, folks that come into the, into the, um, the organization, like, well, I don't know if I'm off access. Like, I think I'm kind of square. I go, look, be you put your unique way on it. That is what off access is a commitment to your unique way. And if you're feeling like you want to cork something a different angle, like that's off-access. Don't do it the way that others have always done it. And that's how I see you. I see you as an off-access approach to life.

And when I even said like, you can find it in the mundane, you've already thought this through now, right? You've got a thought around it. Yes, you can do that. And yes, you can find it in the mundane, you've already thought this through now, right? You've got a thought around it. Yes, you can do that. And yes, you can do it on the edge. Yeah. Correct? I think that's also a duality, right?

If you look at the edge and the mundane as a sort of meta duality, if you will, they both have their place, but there is, I mean, the bigger the dragon, the bigger the treasure on the other side of it, right? The greater the devil you got to battle, the more epic the hero. So there is that part about going to the edge, but it doesn't mean, and I've had moments where I've struggled with the mundane for that very reason

because I only thrived on the edge and that was not a healthy place to be. Yeah, there's an addiction. Exactly. That can happen. Exactly. Or this false setup that I can only find myself there. Exactly.

Well, that's why I'm just doing that counter rotation. And let's be clear for our communities, maybe it's a 5k that you're frontier. Yeah, exactly. Maybe it's climbing a ladder to, you know, cause you're, you've got this thing on heights or maybe it's walking on stage. Maybe it's raising your hand in a meeting. Yeah. Like there's lots of frontiers that we all, you know, it doesn't have to be Antarctica.

No, certainly not. Not the only frontier. Okay. Quick pause here to share. Not the only frontier. Okay. Quick pause here to share some of the sponsors of this conversation. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentous. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday, what you put in your body matters.

And that's why I trust Momentus. From the moment I sat down with Jeff Byers, their co-founder and CEO, I could tell this was not your average supplement company. And I was immediately drawn to their mission, helping people achieve performance for life. And to do that, they developed what they call the Momentus Standard. Every product is formulated with top experts, and every batch is third-party tested. NSF certified for sport or informed sport.

So you know exactly what you're getting. Personally, I'm anchored by what they call the Momentus 3. Protein, creatine, and omega-3. And together, these foundational nutrients support muscle recovery brain function and long-term energy they're part of my daily routine and if you're ready to fuel your brain and body with the best momentous has a great new offer just for our community right here use the code finding mastery for 35 off your first subscription order at livemomentous.com. Again, that's L-I-V-E, momentous, M-O-M-E-N-T-O-U-S, livemomentous.com, and use the code FindingMastery for 35% off your first subscription order.

Finding Mastery is brought to you by Felix Gray. I spend a lot of time thinking about how we can create the conditions for high performance. How do we protect our ability to focus, to recover, to be present? And one of the biggest challenges we face today is our sheer amount of screen time. It messes with our sleep, our clarity, even our mood. And that's why I've been using Felix Gray glasses. What I appreciate most about Felix Gray is that they're just not another wellness product. They're rooted in real science. Developed alongside leading researchers and ophthalmologists, they've demonstrated these types of glasses boost melatonin, help you fall asleep faster, and hit deeper stages of rest.

When I'm on the road and bouncing around between time zones, slipping on my Felix Grays in the evening, it's a simple way to cue my body just to wind down. And when I'm locked into deep work, they also help me stay focused for longer without digital fatigue creeping in. Plus, they look great. Clean, clear, no funky color distortion, just good design, great science. And if you're ready to feel the difference for yourself, Felix Grey is offering all Finding Mastery listeners 20% off. Just head to FelixGray.com and use the code FindingMastery20 at checkout. Again, that's Felix Gray. You spell it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com and use the code FindingMastery20 at FelixGray.com for 20% off. And now back to the conversation. I want to celebrate the edges and encourage people to know theirs in an honest way. And I have such appreciation for how you're designing your life

because you're really doing it now. I don't actually care if you get down to the Antarctica to get this thing, because I know fundamentally you are committing towards that path. And that path is not about a notch in your belt. There are plenty of people in the world that you're living in that are looking for notches and humbly don't look at me, but look at me. And are you agitated by that part of your community in any way? There are people in the community who frustrate me because I feel like when you're operating without integrity and honor, I don't have a lot of respect for that.

And it dishonors the people who are pushing the edges in a pioneering kind of way to people who do that to then it takes away from those true pioneers to get the Instagram likes, to get the Instagram followers. And it's just lack of integrity because there are literally – there's people who literally lie about this. And I mean straight up lie. Lying about their feats, lying about the dangers. I mean it was – some people have, lying about the dangers. I mean, it was some people have said, oh, I was in Antarctica and there's no hope for rescue anywhere. That's just not true. 90% of my journey when I'll be there, there is hope for rescue. I was rescued when I was there two years ago, you know, when I got frostbite. So.

Oh, you're flipping me off. Yeah. All right. Well, now that you're introducing it, can I see your hands? Absolutely. Yeah. So you've lost two fingers. Lost two fingers for frostbite. Yeah. And how do you, two separate expeditions? One expedition.

One expedition, both fingers, but you call these tips, right? Yeah. The tips of the fingers. Yeah. So one expedition cost two fingers. One, if I remember correctly, it was coming back. So yeah, what happened was these two fingers got frostbite pretty bad. Describe your fingers for the folks that are listening.

Roger that, yes, sorry. The right ring finger and the left middle finger got frostbite quite bad. It was black for most of the finger. I mean, really looked like a zombie finger. And it took about seven months and the left middle finger- And we documented this on social

so we could be part of it as well. Yeah, it was a long journey of recovery. The left middle finger recovered fully. it was a normal looking finger again the right ring finger it was a black tip that had to be surgically removed i mean it was black and hard you could literally kind of yeah yeah it was like i think yeah yeah i saw it i got into a weird habit of knocking things it was really funny yeah right you definitely weirded some people out yeah so that one surgically had to be removed. This one recovered, but the problem is once you get frostbite, you're always more prone to frostbite.

So I was in the Arctic earlier this year on a series of training expeditions for- And for folks that don't even know like Antarctic and Arctic, just go to the basics for just a moment. So Antarctica is bottom of the world. South Pole is in Antarctica, a huge landmass uh out there you know savage conditions minus even summer is you know who's down there feels like there's russia's got some there's a handful of bases around the uh around the edge of antarctica and there's one at the south pole and then the other major base is called mcmurdo which is kind of towards the new zealand

side of antarctica but who's running those bases? The Americans and I think the Americans are the primary, both on the South Pole and McMurdo, but I believe there's international presence. So that just made that Russia thing up. I think they have a presence out there too, because there's small bases all around the edge of Antarctica, but the South Pole and McMurdo are the two biggest. Why do we care about it?

I think there's a ton of research that's happening down there. I don't know all the details in terms of the scientific research. By no means my expertise. For adventurers, it's a bit of a playground, of course, as well, because it's so unforgiving. I mean, there is no life other than penguins in sort of one corner of Antarctica. Most of the landmass, 90% of landmass Antarctica has no life at all. So it is this barren, incredibly unforgiving, hostile place that is not welcoming to human beings, which inevitably then becomes a playground for those who want to, because that's to me is where it becomes a mirror to the soul, right?

Because it's so unfriendly. What do you mean mirror to the soul? So because it is so unfriendly, because there's no, it's not, it's not welcoming to life. The, the, when Antarctica is hostile. So for example, when I was out there, right, it's not it's not welcoming to life the the when antarctica is hostile so for example when i was out there right it's you're talking minus 30 degrees hurricane force winds it's not acting out of malice there's no intent to that hostility which man does i've been to war i've seen man do a lot of evil things to each other in antarctica there is no malice to that so that it's pure in that is, you then reflect yourself back at it. Because now if you punch me, there's, I automatically, let's say we're sitting here and you punch me in the face.

There's, why would you do that? There's like, I start thinking about the intentions. I will fight back in nature. You can't do that. But you'll do that with, okay. If that makes sense. Yes, 100%. Yeah.

That's an interesting framing. So your whole framing is duality. Moving towards non-duality. So you're honoring the duality between two things and working towards non-duality. I'm constantly looking for, in life, as I said, there's a series of dualities and I'm all constantly looking for a duality

that causes me friction to go play on the other edge of that duality. Okay, so that's a simple approach to life for you. And I think that's how we find not just a spiritual awakening. Wait, wait, wait, wait. What does the friction feel like to you? That's where the self-awareness comes in.

It can be, it's like, I'll give you a very concrete example to make it clear. There was a few years ago, I was running and I saw this sign as I was running that said 5K fun run. And without conscious choice, visceral disgust at the idea of a fun run. You don't run for fun.

You have to suffer every single run. That was my, that was my- This is not true. No, it's not true at the idea of a fun run. You don't run for fun. You have to suffer every single run. That was my, that was my- This is not true. No, it's not true at all. So this was unhealthy. This is your truth. This was my truth in the moment. This is your framing of it.

I started to realize that I was bringing in suffering in every area of my life because I'd gotten so comfortable on that edge. Was the guiding thought that I need to be good at suffering for the big suffering that I'm- For whatever the, exactly. At this point, I wasn't training for Antarctica. This was before Antarctica had even entered

my realm of consciousness. But I was still a thriver in that space of, I was running ultra marathons. I was pushing the edge in other pursuits and looking to play on the edge of suffering as a means to enlightenment. Okay, so that's an important framing, suffering versus friction.

So friction is the smoke, right? Suffering is the fire, if you will, like where the smoke, there's fire. Yeah. In this particular duality, there's other ones too. Like I can give you an example as well of that because what, so what I did when that, when that, when that awareness hit me that I've gotten so comfortable with suffering, let me play on the edge of play. If you look at that as a duality, right? Suffering and play, right? Call it what you want. What's we won't get caught up in the semantics of it. But so I started doing more playful things.

I would do fun runs. I would do when, I mean, as an example, I'd go to retreats and whenever they had like sort of dancing breaks and retreats, I would rather be doing burpees in the corner than dancing there. That made me more uncomfortable. So I would play in the edge of play. I would do things like singing and dancing while I'm driving in my car. This is where improv is such a great tool for the serious, right? Yeah, exactly.

So by playing on that edge, now I've exposed myself to things that that version of me was, I was limited by my own constraints, trapped in my own prison because that's where I believed I had to be, right? Again, it was visceral when I thought fun run is bad. So now by playing on the edge of play,

I've suddenly opened new doors. I've now accessed play. Now, if you look at that particular duality, I will always be clearly someone who thrives on the edge of suffering. That's why I do the things I do. But now it's with much more intention, with much more consciousness. And I also have new weapons from the edge of play to bring into the things that I push myself into suffering.

Some say weapons, some say tools, resources, weapons is obviously my, my lingo. But I was even playing after that when I kind of navigated that, then I went on the edge of control and surrender. So I was looking for another duality. Giant control freak. My world is in my hands. I will embrace my reality.

Everything I seize control of. Got it. And where did that, just to frame that, where did that come from for you? Where did the high need for control come from i dad was a drug addict mom was a no i had great parents uh great childhood couldn't ask for go to my go to parents don't i as a psychologist i was waiting for the joke yeah i was waiting for the joke but like so you you were why such a high need of control where was the trauma that happened

early possibly after the war um yeah how do we miss that that little thing did you have high control needs going in and it was exasperated or did it feel new to you i think it felt newer to me i certainly wasn't as self-aware as i am now when i went in but after i came back as i think you know we might you know i struggled with ptsd depression heavy drinking was on the verge of suicide and perhaps all of this covered in our first conversation i want to encourage people to go yeah share as much as you'd like me to go into it if you'd like me to but no i want to get to net new and i want to encourage people to to know you better because the framing of what we're talking about is so good and rich yeah And like, you know suffering.

You really, and you look for more of it is something that is rare. Most people don't look for more suffering. So pull that thread just a little bit further. Why are you looking for deeper suffering? It's not the suffering in and of itself. It's the thing the suffering gives me access to. Which is? To me, it's transcendence.

Suffering is a training ground for transcendence because when you are in the depths of it especially what draws me to endurance sports is there's the measure of time it's easy to suffer when i'm doing a 10 minute burpee session you know it's going to end in 10 minutes when time's gum comes into play it's our most valuable precious resource right the one thing we can't get back and when time time comes into play, your mind will start playing those games. Shit, I still have 12 more hours of this. I still have 20 more hours of this, right? And the navigate that dance of bringing yourself into the here and now, when you know the suffering is extended, you have to transcend the limitations of your own self, your own mind to keep moving forward, to keep moving through. That transcendence to me is tapping into the fire of the human spirit, you know,

and especially out on the edges when you're alone, like being in the Arctic alone, being in Antarctica alone, in the depths of solitude, in the depths of struggle, when you're away from decadence, when you're away from distractions, you tap into those, that parts of the human soul. You're hearing things you don't get to hear in the distractions. To me, again, you're hearing God, call it just your, you know, depending on your own paradigm, you could say consciousness, yourself is speaking to you, the universe, whatever you want to call it. But hearing those sounds, hearing those thoughts, being with that self, it's a deeply spiritual experience.

And what, what do you say to folks that say, yeah, okay, you go to the Antarctica. I'm going to go do some ayahuasca. You go to the Antarctica. I'm going to go just kind of pray. Like, you know, what do you say to those responses? I would say two things. One, coming back to what you said, everybody's edge is unique. Antarctica is by no means the only place to go find enlightenment, right?

So find an edge. But I would also say, and I'm not knocking psychedelics. I think that I know plenty of people who benefited from it and gotten tremendous value. But I would say in the words of Carl Jung, beware of unearned wisdom. Beware of honor and wisdom. Unearned wisdom. Unearned wisdom. I don't even know that that exists.

I think that the, where i think we're getting into a world where we're looking for shortcuts like i experienced hallucinating said that yeah that's a new quote for i'm gonna beware of unearned wisdom like what does that mean because wisdom oh you know probably what he's pointing to is this idea that when you read some insight from somebody else and then there's a parenting of that, but you don't fully embody it. Like wisdom is embodied. Like you have to earn the revealing of wisdom

as opposed to the sharing of somebody else's insight. I 100% agree. I kind of distinguish that knowledge versus wisdom. But I also think in the context of, with where we're going with the psychedelics, it's a shortcut even to enlightenment. Like you can access the same states in darkness, which you have to suffer for five days in the military and extraordinary doers and thinkers. Like one of them, I'm thinking of Rich Deviney and Brent Gleason talked about negotiating with themselves during suffering. Both special operators.

And I'd love to drill down into the moment that you're suffering. And for me, it's like a stay or go experience. Stay here a little bit longer or i can eject out and the eject out can come in lots of ways i can literally physically remove by waving my arms to get picked up by the helicopter in your stance or whatever the rescue mechanism is and or i can blame somebody else i can point a finger, I can lie to myself, I can distract. So when you're in the suffering, how do you negotiate with yourself and work with yourself? It has been trained over time to navigate and to fundamentally, the core of it is to accept the isness of the reality of that

suffering and not attach what I call the second darts onto it. So I'll explain what I mean by that. So Buddha said, well, I'll stab by the two darts of suffering that's right the first dart is the one we don't control and i'll give you a very concrete example of when i did this when i was in antarctica your finger needs to be cut off like was that suffering for you it was physically it was moments of pain moments of pain for sure so let's different before you get to the second dart which is a radical insight yeah who would have got that one right? Yeah. Who am I to say? But so can you differentiate for just a moment between pain and suffering? I use the word suffering a lot as in, in replacement of pain, but very consciously because suffering feels worst. It's like suffering is sort of pain amplified, if you will. So to me,

that's why even I'm sure that's a suffer well, if you develop a positive, healthy relationship to suffering, even like right now, when I heard the word, when I hear the word difficult or challenging, it feels like nothing to me because I've, I've played in, cause you know, words have power in shaping our reality, right? So if I have such a healthy relationship to suffering and everything else doesn't even feel that bad. So challenges, suffering is the higher order of difficultness. Exactly. Okay. So call it, like some people will say pain is, I've heard it say pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. And while I would agree with that, I just use different terminology. So I call it suffering versus second darts suffering. That's coming back to the second darts. So the first suffering that you're pointing to is the first dart, which is the,

it's the thing that arises and then- Beyond our control. Beyond your control. Absolutely. I don't know, plenty of stories. We could just use our imagination of things that happen. And then the second dart-

Is the dialogue we have around it. So I'll give you a very concrete example of when I messed this up and learned from it. I was in Antarctica, right? On this expedition two years ago, we had just arrived on the polar plateau. So we were at altitude after climbing the glacier. What does altitude mean? It was, I think about 8,000 plus feet. So not crazy high, but feeling it at that point, because you had just finished

climbing the glacier. My team and I became one of 26 people to climb this glacier, amazing experience. And so suddenly on the plateau, we're being hammered by wind. It was the first shift of the day. I was leading the shift. So I have navigating and first time now putting this compass on me on the expedition. And I was really struggling like the wind was hammering me navigating. There was a lot of these bumps in the snow called Sastrugi. I was feeling the altitude. So I was moving slower, breathing harder. And I just kept saying, what the fuck is wrong with me? Why am I being so weak? I'm moving so slow. What if the team behind me thinks I'm a piece of shit? What if I can't keep up? What if I need to be evacuated? And I have to I can't survive this just going down this rabbit hole, an hour of this shift ends, we take a little

break for water and food team comes up to me and goes, that was a really hard shift. That was objectively a hard shift with altitude with Sastrugi with wind with extra cold. But this that was the first dart. The second dart was that entire dialogue I completely wasted my mental energy on. That's exactly right. That's the second dart instead of just accepting the first dart. The second dart was that entire dialogue. I completely wasted my mental energy on. That's exactly right. That's the second dart instead of just accepting the isness. And now one final word from our sponsors. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth.

Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day. And Cozy Earth has become a new part of that. Their bedding, it's incredibly soft, like next level soft. And what surprised me the most is how much it actually helps regulate temperature. I tend to run warm at night and these sheets have helped me sleep cooler and more consistently, which has made a meaningful difference in how I show up the next day for myself, my family,

and our team here at Finding Mastery. It's become part of my nightly routine. Throw on their lounge pants or pajamas, crawl into bed under their sheets, and my nervous system starts to settle. They also offer a 100-night sleep trial and a 10-year warranty on all of their bedding, which tells me, tells you that

they believe in the long-term value of what they're creating. If you're ready to upgrade your rest and turn your bed into a better recovery zone, use the code FINDINGMASTERY for 40% off at cozyearth.com. That's a great discount for our community. Again, the code is Finding Mastery for 40% off at CozyEarth.com. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Caldera Lab. I believe that the way we do small things in life is how we do all things. And for me, that includes how I take care of my body. I've been using Caldera Lab for years now. And what keeps me coming back, it's really simple. Their products are simple and they reflect the kind of intentional living that I want to build into every part of my day. And they make my morning routine really easy. They've got some great new products I think

you'll be interested in. A shampoo, conditioner, and a hair serum. With Caldera Lab, it's not about adding more. It's about choosing better. And when your day demands clarity and energy and presence, the way you prepare for it matters. If you're looking for high-quality personal care products that elevate your routine without complicating it, I'd love for you to check them out. Head to calderalab.com slash findingmastery and use the code code finding mastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash finding mastery. And with that, let's jump right back into this conversation. I'm glad that you sound human for a little bit because I know the second dart well as well. Yeah. It happens to the best of us.

And so I wrote the book on, you know, the first rule of mastery, stop worrying about what people think of you. And it's, it's highlighting in a fun, jestful way, FOPO, fear of people's opinions, which is what you had some of that in there. What are they going to think of me? Okay. But you would think that I would be able to like, hello and goodbye quickly to FOPO or the second dart because I've spent so much time with it. It takes longer than I wish it would. I'm better at it, much better at it now than I ever was. Exactly. And there's still room to grow.

All that being said is the second dart for you lasted an hour. Yeah, maybe 45 minutes of that shift. So how do you navigate and negotiate with yourself when you're doing it well so that was that was maybe that was as fast as well let me strike that that is the best you could do in that moment i believe that you work hard to bring your very best into this moment in any moment i believe that is a fundamental commitment you've made to yourself yeah and you've been therefore you've invested in awareness. If you want to bring your best self forward relative to the challenges, demands, or potential

suffering in an environment, it requires an investment in awareness. If you're not investing in awareness, you're not in the game, period. Absolutely. You're down with that, period. So you check the box and then you've invested in awareness. So you're aware of your inner dialogue. You're aware of your. Yeah, 100%. So you check the box and then you've invested in awareness. So you're aware of your inner dialogue. You're aware of your feelings, emotions,

your body sensations, the unfolding world around you. And we can all go further on that awareness. Once you're aware, wow, I'm really beating myself up. Man, what is wrong with the way I speak to myself? So that track, that train of thought, if you will,

is the second dart. How do you, when you do it well, how do you navigate that? So once I'm aware and accept the isness of the first dart of suffering, whatever it may be, then I use many weapons or tools to navigate. So it can go into a place of pure gratitude. Thank God I get to be here. Okay. So now drill right in.

Okay. So the right in. So you recognize that you are shit talking yourself right that you are um you are adding the second dart you are volitionally throwing the second dart okay how do you negotiate in that nanosecond that micro choice to stay in it or to move to gratitude how do you do that drill even one yeah it's kind of a first principles thinking methodology so i'm looking at what's the pure isness. What's the pure isness beyond my control.

And then from that place, then I can control the dialogue beyond that. So as any another, like, sorry, hold on. I want to get this. So you, you become aware that you're talking to yourself in a critical, unproductive, um, second dart way. And then once you're aware, you go, ah, hold on, find the first principle. Find the first principle.

What's the isness? Get to the isness. The isness is this is a harsh condition. Yes. Okay. Then once you get to the isness of it, you say, I now have a choice. I just got to the truth. Is that right?

So you don't, so I went from my hands, I moved down like to get to the first principle or foundational at the isness to your language and, or the Buddhist language. Yeah, not mine. And then, and then instead of like doing karate with your thoughts, like, oh, I'm speaking negatively, I got to speak positively. You don't play at that level. You use it to go down to submarine. And then when you, when you make a choice from that place, it's grounded, it's foundational,

it's first principle, isness. And then you negotiate how you want to be in the condition that you're in. Does that sound right? Yes. What if you don't have the luxury of the time to get to the isness? That's where the training and the mastery comes from

is being able to get to the isness. That's where the training and the mastery comes from is being able to get to the isness as quickly as possible. So you don't waste time in that. And the framing that you're using is first, second dart. Yes. Okay, so you're saying, ah, this is the first dart. This condition is harsh, but you don't label it. You don't do good and bad. So I know I don't like because another

another thing i've seen a lot of adventurers will say you know i hope there's no storms tomorrow when i'm on the ice i'll say i hope the weather is what will what it will be tomorrow 100 time you get what you want it will be what it will be so even when i was in the arctic earlier this year i just got hammered with two two days of massive storms so the snow was now very soft as i was going up and down the undulating terrain in Norway, it was very soft snow. So it made it harder to ski. Now I could have been like,

oh fuck, I wish the snow was harder. I wish it was better. And I just kept saying, thank you God for these perfect conditions because it was perfect because everything is perfect in its isness for it cannot be anything other than what it already is.

There you go. So by choosing to say, thank you God for these perfect conditions, I accepted the isness. They weren't hard. Even, for example, when I'm hiking with a quote-unquote heavy pack. What is heavy? Heavy is a construct.

For me, 50 pounds might feel light. For somebody else, 50 pounds might be heavy. So instead of saying it's hot, and I'm not perfect at this. It slips from time to time. But instead of saying this pack is heavy or the conditions are hot, the conditions are. I mean, I train in Arizona in summer. So you don't label harsh? No, because that's a construct. So then what's the isness of those conditions when

your team recognized that this was hard, it was objectively harder. So that was like, so this is the first start can even be internal beyond our control, right? Cause it could like, let's say, I mean, in the example of right now, somebody comes into the room with a gun, I'm going to feel fear. That is the first start. The first start is not always external. It can be internal as well. It's that initial thought, initial feeling that was beyond our control, right?

If somebody cuts me off while I'm driving, what the fuck? First start, I don't control it. Over time, you can change what arises in response to external stimuli through training, but it's gonna happen to the best of us. It's irrelevant to me what shows up first. I still have the shape of it, right? You deal to the isness first principle, but I'm confused on what that first principle is. This is in that condition in, in, in the

Arctic condition where you said that 45 minutes was, I'm, I said harsh and you're saying, no, I didn't label that. So what I would do in, in that case, like as soon as I became aware at that end of that break, when the team said, you know, this was a really hard shift, I would, I said, oh, got it. It was objectively harder than other shifts. So now got it. Okay. This shift is what's the isness here? There's a storm.

It's colder. There's a strugy, you know, looking at it. Got it. It's feeling more difficult for sure. And so I'm not denying the reality of that, but what I choose to bring into my conscious reality is that's where the choice is, the power is. So sometimes I will actually use quote, if you want to put this in this way, the negative language of like, this is fucking hard. Awesome. Bring on, like there was a time when I was, I did the, when the pandemic first hit, I did a 50 mile run around a cul-de-sac

because people were like, oh, there's no gyms. There's no parks. I can't train. So I run 50 miles around a cul-de-sac, like a thousand plus loops. Yeah. Just to show people you can always suffer. Right. And during this time I'd be running and it was like middle of the night. And at one point I was just slow down on this. Sorry. Let me get the image for our community. Remind them you did what? 50 miles around. It was like 0.05 miles so we're talking a thousand plus loops around a little cul-de-sac right outside my house just to show you can always suffer there's a there's to inspire people you don't need regardless of whether you agree why did you want to do that it was a beautiful mental challenge for one just dealing

with the monotony knowing that your house is right there in any moment you can call it quits, nobody would have known. Nobody was watching. There was no race. I could call it quits. Who the hell would know and never announce it, you know, dealing with that. It's profoundly beautiful, right? So that was, but there was a moment on that particular run. I remember this specifically where I was kind of hurting a little bit feeling, I forget

how many hours and whatever in, and I was like, all right, fucking awesome. I want the devil him. this was literally my words i want the devil himself to rise out of hell so he can look me in the eyes and try to fucking destroy me and i will i will bury that motherfucker in his own blood like i wanted more pain i was like it was all so beautiful until this moment and I wanted to bury that motherfucker in his own blood by rising out of hell. Like I wanted him to commit himself to me so he could attempt to break me. Now, again, I don't always talk to myself that way, but the whole mechanism, the more you play in this realm is you figure out which tool you need when you need it.

There was another time where I put all these horrific audio books on my iPod while I think it was doing an 80 mile run. And I had books on sex trafficking, child soldiers, Holocaust. And the thought process was I would hear this and it would give me perspective to my pain seeing like these guys had it much worse. So I'm good.

But I put it in the space when I was deep in the suck. And I just, I went into a really dark place where I said, humanity sucks. The world is evil. Everything is terrible. And I was like, all right, that wasn't effective. Yeah, that went a little too far there, you know, you play and you experiment. Okay. So I get, I understand you're practicing getting to is this.

And then you can choose which terminology you can go gratitude. You can go dark. You can play with whatever you want. Right. Super interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Great. Okay. So maybe let's talk about some of the. Yeah. Great. Okay. So maybe let's talk about some of the preparation that you're going through. So we've done a bunch of work on philosophy. Yeah. Let's get right and some tactics on how you work with negotiating suffering and how you're framing suffering versus pain. First art, second art. I should reverse those. How you're suffering pain is first dart. Suffering is second dart, right? The second dart of suffering, yeah.

And so let's drill down into the way that you've been preparing for this expedition. So one more time, just shape the expedition. When you think it's gonna happen, how you're preparing for it. Why are we doing this? Why are we? Why are you doing this?

Like what's the greater purpose around it? And I want to understand the training and how you're going about it. And then to see also how we can pull our community to support you as well. I'm not sure what that would look like, but just the spirit of the question. So frame it for us. So what I'll be doing next November, this is November, 2024. I will be attempting to be the first person ever to do a coast to coast ski crossing of Antarctica. I'll be dragging a 400 pound sled for 1700 miles across the entire coast of Antarctica. 1700 miles, 110 days completely alone.

Is that like halfway across the United States? I think so. Somewhere. A little bit more. I think maybe two thirds, something like that. Yeah. Okay. And it's all flat downhill.

It is not. I wish. So South Pole is at about 9,000 plus elevation. So you're starting at sea level going up and then kind of going back down the other side. Yeah. And it'll be a 400 pound sled of supplies. Are there mountains? There are the transatlantic mountains, but you're not, I mean, I won't be sort of climbing or anything. I'll be going up a glacier to get onto the polar

plateau and then down a glacier on the other side to go onto the ice shelf. Okay. So you're pulling how many pounds? I'm estimating about 400 pounds. And that's food? Mostly food. Food is the heaviest. The second heaviest is fuel. fuel to boil snow for water and uh and and eat that's how you eat your freeze-dried meals as well so theoretically it gets a little bit lighter exactly it does yeah it's every day i'll be eating uh about 1.1 kilos worth of food and that will get lighter and using some fuel but it'll be two sleds for all that supplies for 110 days completely alone so i'll portions of the journey will geographically be the most isolated life form on earth what are the what are the most dangerous parts that you're tuning to the most dangerous are the crevasses um on the two glaciers especially

on one glacier that's to me is the scariest is falling into a crevasse that's horrifying that would really suck to say the least yeah and they're hard to see they are but we uh i'm blessed with a lot of data in intel like there's my friend eric phillips has been up both those glaciers so he's given me kind of the the the waypoints uh you know the gps data ale antarctic logistics and expeditions they've used satellite tracking so you're mitigating the risk as possible polar travel is not as dangerous as mountaineering or people often think when I hear that compared to Alex Honnold's free solo, this is not that. It's not nearly as dangerous. It's a lot more suffering. That to me is the draw. It's because like in mountaineering, you can fall.

Like when I was out, for example, I was on Denali last year and you know, at 16,000 feet, you're in a thin ridge line with a thousand foot drop on each side. You could fall and then obviously the danger. On polar travel, you're just dragging a sled in flat white nothingness. So it's not super dangerous. In modern history, no explorers actually died in Antarctica. This is before, again, way back when, different story. But only one explorer, Henry Worsley, did die. But it was actually bacterial peritonitis that killed him after he arrived, not in Antarctica.

So it's not insane. It's not obviously not dangerous, but it's not that dangerous as people often think. It's more just the sheer monotony, the suffering, because even in mountaineering, you know, the environment forces you into flow. When I'm on that ridge line, I'm not thinking of other things. My mind is right there. The environment puts you in there. In Antarctica, it's imagine just walking into- No, no, I disagree with that. The environment can help and hurt. The environment is neutral. That's fair. Yeah. Go back to your earlier note, is that you can be in a harsh condition or the is-ness of it, those five variables together. Again, I said harsh, that which is labeled i understand but high stakes

risk consequence uh real or perceived can be an accelerant to yes or a um a way to move away from you know so for some people that are when you can frame it well like okay just one more step okay here i am i'm in it let's go this is what i'm and there's a narrative eventually that narrative is supporting moving into it and eventually that narrative starts to slide away got a deep focus and um an approach toward the yeah the the danger the risk the whatever that is one of the entryways into flow state but it oftentimes i find myself so tight yeah in those moments that it's hard. I got to breathe. I got to work myself.

You know, so. That's totally fair. That's a good point. So I guess what I meant to say is not force you. It can be a force. It can be. Yeah, it can be. And it makes it a little easier.

Whereas when you're just walking in literally imagine walking into staring into a white wall because in Antarctica, there's no stimuli to engage you, right? For the most part, there's two sections where you'll see. This is why you've been doing the dark. but it's pure flat white nothingness so your mind has both the burden and the luxury to wander and that is where the game happens that's where the struggle is because you can go an hour shift in antarctica and it could feel like a lifetime you know so your you your mind you have to have more power over your mind to navigate that that monotony. Not only that, but every day is kind of the same.

Whereas when I'm mountain climbing, every day is a little different. The views are different. There's stimuli. The nature of the day is different as you go up and down the mountain. In Antarctica, every day, you're just skiing in flat white nothingness. Well, how many hours in a row do you pull 400 pounds? I believe it'll take me at least 12 hours to get that, to get the daily distance I need to cover. 12 hours a day. Yes. At 400 pounds,

you're pulling. It'll get lighter, but yes, that's what I'll have to do. I believe it'll, that's what it'll take. 12 hours of walking a day is like work. Yeah. 12 hours of walking in those conditions is work. Yeah. 12 hours of 400 pounds. It's a lot of work yeah so i will be i mean if i get great conditions i could hit that distance in 10 hours what's a great condition you know great snow conditions it's not soft hard snow good good solid glide you can move faster there's no but you're making your own tracks obviously so like yeah okay but you're not going to get perfect conditions every day there'll be some days where you get awesome conditions. And again, awesome is kind of a construct because everything is awesome, but separate from that object, objectively easier. I appreciate your real time editing and reframing.

It is a work in progress, but objectively easier, if you will, conditions than other days. Are you familiar with Chris Hadfield, the astronaut? Yes. Yeah. So he talked, he was on the show and he talked about going blind in space. So we got a spacewalk, which is like, I'm at the Superbowl. He's tethered and on the international space station floating out in space and he goes completely blind and he didn't want to tell people initially. And I've got a quote, I'm going to read it to you because I'd love your response to it. But he navigated getting down to the most fundamental issue. And the issue was not getting back into the capsule to solve it. So here's how he said it. In our case, we didn't know for sure if I was going to be blinded, but we knew lots of stuff can go wrong during a spacewalk. And we even practice, we had a name for it,

incapacitated crew rescue. Okay, so that means you gotta come get me. And so how do you need me to come help you? Says Scott, his teammate there. And this is Chris saying, and I'm like, no, no, not yet. Now it's just a matter of working the problem and not blowing it out of proportion, working the problem. And so it's training, it's preparation, it's a lifetime. They don't just

grab me off the street and send me out for a spacewalk. Isn't that great? That's awesome. So it's working the problem. So you've outlined a few dangers or, you know, risks. Yeah. What do you think are the going to be the most internal, um, the, the most radical challenges that you'll face internally? monotony and the sheer kind of unrelenting daily hard work is even in this journey, I don't get to take days off because I have to cover the distance to actually pull off this crossing. So in those 110 days, I don't get a day off. I don't, and every day is the same. And what if you take a day off? What happens? I mean, I potentially could not just not cover the distance. So the greatest outcome of failure, while death is a smaller possibility the greatest outcome of failure just means i couldn't cover the distance in time so how do you define failure is not hitting the target not hitting my

designated my outcome that i define failure is the unwillingness or inability to go for it i don't think it's failure if you don't hit it but the unwillingness or inability to go for it like i've i've met i've met a point in failure and i don't have judgment on it yeah there's a point of failure yeah in the logic a point of failure in capabilities a point of failure in conditions like but but the deeper part is like the unwillingness that's where i start to go i like that yeah so for you it's like i just didn't hit it i didn't mean the outcome that like if i let's say pull 110 days out there and i make it 1500 miles in a sense out of 1700 would that still be epic in my own experience would it still be a deeply spiritual profound experience of course

right it'll still be but you didn't cross the whole but i didn't cross the whole last season there were three expeditions that attempted a partial crossing of antarctica so not a full coast to coast all three. They're all alive. They just couldn't cover the distance in the timeframe allotted. So that's, and even Steve Jones, he's a friend of mine. He's the expedition manager at Antarctic Logistics and Expeditions who's tracked every modern expedition history

who said anybody who attempts this will probably fail just because the pulling that distance, covering that distance is daunting. Did I hear it right? Three people have tried? Nobody, that would not, nobody's actually attempted a true full coast to coast crossing without kites or dogs. And the reason being is because it's, I mean, so when Borge Ausland, he was the first person to actually

cross Antarctica back then the feet had never been done. So the goal was just to do it right. Style evolutions happen after the pioneering feet is done. Yeah. So he did it with kites and dogs? He did it with a very small kite for part of the journey. But again, with his, it was a true pioneering feat. He's one of the greatest modern polar travelers. What's his name again? Borge Ausland. Legend, right?

And so he did a true coast to coast, but used a small kite for part of the journey. Because again, the thing hasn't been done, right? So it was just to do the deed. Like when Amundsen reached the South Pole, it wasn't about doing it in XYZ way. Right, yeah. It right yeah just to reach so your style now that you're adding to it is to attempt it and someone's going to do it without skis who knows right exactly some iteration at some point so the goal is to do without kites or without because people have done a dog crossing

as well as kites okay yeah the goal is to do pure man hauling so just maybe someone does it without food yeah who knows exactly at some point we're not going to need food. It's all pills anyways. All right. All right. So, um, so how are you training for this? So physically the core training is tire dragging. So I have a very, very heavy truck tire that I drag for hours or on end around parks in Arizona to simulate the sled. Um, I gotta get it. Please have your fiance send me a video of this. It's hilarious. Hours at a time.

Hours at a time. Yeah. So how, but you're not getting even close to 12. You're not doing that per day. No, I mean, there are times where like, like last few weeks ago was my 39th birthday. So to celebrate, I did a 39 hour endurance week that ended with three back-to-back nine hour endurance days. So two was nine hours of tire dragging back-to-back followed by a nine hour hike and i'm actually going to be doing a 12 hour tire dragging day shortly here so i'm not doing it

consistently right you actually don't need to run back-to-back marathons to exactly yeah because you're then it's not you're you're actually i mean antarctica nothing about that is good for the body right you're putting yourself i need to enter to enter Antarctica as strong as possible, not weak, not because doing 12 hour days back to back is not, not good training. Okay. You know what I mean? That's right. Yeah.

Okay. So force ranks, some of these things we've got harsh, uh, we've got wind, we've got, um, cold, we've got, um, visibility to the, when you're, yeah, when you're, when it's a whiteout, I wouldn't be able to see you in front of me. Yeah. Curvasses for small parts of the journey, small parts. Um, and then we've got, um, some incline. Yes. Okay. None of these are terribly dangerous in itself. That's why you're pointing to suffering. Yeah. Okay. So then you've got, so those are external factors, right? And then your sled could go down. You've got some things there, right? I mean,

exhaustion obviously is inevitable. Now I want to go internal. Yeah. Okay. So internal is exhaustion. You could crack, you could lose, lose, completely lose your faculties,

right? You've got, I guess this is internal, internal, external. You could go frostbite, frostbite again. Okay.

What will you do when you start to feel cold on your, your tips, toes, noses, fingers? Cause you've already lost two fingertips two fingers yeah you got all your toes got all my toes yeah sweet uh nose looks great though thank you all good here uh those are a little easier to cover toes the boots are solid i don't really anticipate any toe issues uh it's only hands will be the biggest threat so what are you going to do when you start to first feel the cold and go oh i know this feeling so now that's gonna be a lot that's gonna be a second that's gonna be like a ptsd track yeah it could be well maybe not that's a big reason why i cut this left middle finger off

right because when i was in the arctic this finger that recovered, it was getting cold faster than the other fingers. And that was not only now of the physical concern of the flow, because once you get frostbite, you're always more prone to frostbite. Finding Mastery is brought to you by iRestore. When it comes to my health, I try to approach things with a proactive mindset. It's not about avoiding poor health. This is about creating the conditions for growth. Now, hair health is one of those areas that often gets overlooked until your hair starts to change. That's when people pay attention. That's why I've been loving iRestore Elite.

It's a hands-free red light therapy device that helps stimulate dormant hair follicles, helps to support regrowth. It's a clinical grade device. It's simple to use. It fits right into the rhythm of my day, whether I'm meditating, reading, prepping for one of our clients here at Finding Mastery. It's really simple. Now, red light therapy has some pretty amazing research behind it when it comes to cellular energy, tissue repair, inflammation control, as well as healing. iRestore is using those same principles to help your hair thrive. I really like this product. I used it last night. I use it on a regular basis.

They also offer a 12-month money-back guarantee. So if you don't see results, they'll refund you. No questions. I love that. They have real confidence in their product. And because you're a member of the Finding Mastery community, right now they're offering our listeners huge savings on the iRestore Elite. When you use the code findingmastery at iRestore.com slash findingmastery. Again, that code is findingmastery at iRestore.com slash findingmastery for exclusive savings. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Lisa. Sleep is one of the foundational pillars of high performance. There's no arguing that. And when we have great sleep consistently and deeply,

we give ourselves the best chance to operate at our best physically, cognitively, emotionally, sleep affects it all. That's why I care about the environment that I sleep in so much. And of course, a great mattress, it matters. One of our teammates here at Finding Mastery has been sleeping on a Lisa mattress for over a year now, and it's made a noticeable difference. They specifically chose one from their chill collection because they sleep hot, something I know many of us can relate to, myself included. What are they reporting back? Fewer wake-ups, deeper rest, and feeling more recovered when they jump into their work here at Finding Mastery. Lisa has several models to choose from. So whether you're a side sleeper, stomach sleeper, or somewhere in between, there's a fit designed specifically for you. And what I appreciate most

is their purpose. They've donated over 41,000 mattresses to people in need. I love that. So right now you can get 25% off all mattresses at Lisa.com plus an extra $50 off when you use the code finding mastery at checkout. That's Lisa L E E S a.com. The promo code is finding mastery for 25% off and then plus an extra $50 on us because quality sleep is just too important to leave to chance. Do you have phantom pain? The phantom limb thing? Yeah. No, it's not.

I do. Like, I mean, every once in a while I'll feel just the effects of no finger from typing. Yeah, but the pain is not there. But no, not anymore. I mean, these fingers are still more tender, so they still hurt more, but not a big, yeah. Let's go to the PTSD factor. Okay. It's not even a great term really, because what happens when we experience a trauma experience, small T, big T, is that we are optimized to protect ourselves from that again. So it's a, oftentimes it's a restriction. It's

a protection mechanism. And then we've got these triggers that say, oh wait, I've smelt that before. Last time I smelt that I almost died. So then it's makes sense that I would tighten back up. Okay. So you're going to feel cold on your fingertips. Almost certainly. Yeah. Last time you felt cold on your fingertips, you end up losing two. Yes. Is that fair to say? Yeah. Okay. Or maybe it wasn't last time. Not last time, but yeah. Two ago. Okay. Oh, so maybe you already navigated this. Maybe you already re-engineered this. Okay. So, so wasn't last time. Not last time, but yeah. Two ago. Okay. Oh, so maybe you already navigated this. Maybe you already re- Because I've been on expeditions since. Re-engineered this.

Okay. So you're not concerned about that because you reorganized or organized yourself to be able to tolerate coldness and not hit a panic button. Yeah. I mean, because even when I got frostbite, I wasn't sort of walking around with no gloves or doing something stupid.

It kind of happened. I don't, still to this day, I assessed with my team very objectively, not trying to just, you know, cover myself and do anything wrong, but it kind of happened. But now you still to this day, I've assessed with my team very objectively, not trying to just, you know, cover myself and do anything wrong. Uh, but it kind of happened, but now you have to take even more precautions is what I did. I didn't even think that it could have been an accident. Yeah, it was, it just, I mean, you could obviously like, I wasn't walking around with no gloves, holding metal water bottles or anything. Right. But it happened. And, uh, and now I have to take even more precautions. Like when you ski, for example, I wouldn't use these things called pogies where you slide

your hand in to keep them extra warm because everything in Antarctica is hard to do in the cold, especially when it's windy. Because now eating your food, for example, you can't just put your hand in your bag of food because you have mittens on, right? So the more things you add onto the hand system, the more hassle it becomes. But now I just got to do what I got to do and I've adapted. So that's why I was in the Arctic. I was in Iceland. I've done all these training expeditions. I'm going to Minnesota in 10 days. I'll spend the entire winter in Ely, Minnesota,

just spending as much time on ice in cold. To be familiar with cold. To continue to train in, I mean, it's the best thing you can do to train for Antarctica is doing the actual thing, right? So dragging a sled on cross-country skis. Okay. So, um, have you figured out, I know you push the edge in training and I want to get to a couple of those, like what you're doing with a narrative and whatever. So I want to get to a couple of those, but have you found, I grew up surfing relatively cold water. Um, we were stupid in how we treated our bodies when we're, you know, teenagers and, um teenagers. And it was a kind of a rite of passage or for the day. It was a daily rite of passage that if you got out before you could put the key in your car and crank it, that you got out too early. So, okay.

So think about how stupid. I put the ring all the time, yeah. Yeah. So I'm incredibly sensitive to cold now in the tip. So I'm asking selfishly, like, so when I get up and go do some skiing, like I got to really fight through that a bit. Okay. So because of that lack or that over sensitivity, I guess I would say.

Have you figured out a way for healing of like extremities at the tip, you know, the tips of the nerves to get more blood flow or oxygen or anything there not particularly other than i mean you know i'm using sometimes you can use some breath work to help warm i also have a blood disorder that transports about 25 percent less hemoglobin oxygen human bodies the doctor said that would have potentially what is that called it's called thalsemmia thalassemia so a normal guy hemoglobin is supposed to be 14 to 16 i think yeah and mine's like 11 so that does that help her that sounds like that's not a good thing for oxygen flowing through the extremities brother brother i'm not so sure that this is the right you know like

so how are you going to treat i bet there's some really switched on practitioners, medical practitioners like, oh, look, we could do da, da, da, da, da. Or there's some training mechanisms or protocols. Like, are you interested in those types of protocols to increase hemoglobin? I mean, I've done so, you know, I'm doing, like right now I'm doing as part of my training,

I'm doing intermittent hypoxic training. So I have a high altitude mass that I put on to go in 16,000 feet, five minutes on five minutes off for an hour every day to help blood flow. And actually my hemoglobin has grown up. It used to be 11 and now I think it's 12.5. So it's gone up still low, but it's gone up. Uh, and so keep doing things like that. I'm not sure that that lasts very long, meaning that you get that adaptation. I don't know. So maybe somebody can course correct us yeah but i think that that the altitude type training is amazing yeah and then i think it goes away within i'm gonna guess here this is all data for me like a couple weeks okay it might be a couple days i don't know somebody please course correct us correct us there yeah

but i i say that because it would be good if it's working maybe you need to be doing that doing for a long time. I don't know. So I'm trying like every, every just wherever, you know, at this point, wherever you can get that 1%.

Are you doing any oxygen training? That's the, like in a, in a capsule or sleeping hyperbaric. Yeah. Not, not that. No.

And you're not doing that because cost associated or it's not cost of a hyperbaric. Yeah. Another expense. That's part of it. Well, what if we could find a partner? I mean, that would be amazing. I would definitely.

Yeah, does that facilitate you? I believe it would make a difference. Let's do some research before we kind of go hunt for our partner ecosystem and see. Okay, so let's pause that to find if there's something there. But what are some of the other ways that you're training? So the unique beast of training for polar travel is you need to train strength, just have the strength to drag that sled endurance 12 hours a day and do it all while you're fat.

Fat. Yeah. So you're putting on, I'm putting on weight and I got a little belly going. Literally you want to have fat. Exactly. Cause you, cause I'm going to be calorically deprived from day one of the journey. So I'm eating like an animal to get fat and obviously build muscle. So doing a lot of strength training as well as the

endurance work. Endurance work is primarily- Are you getting coached there or are you navigating this yourself? I have a trainer that helps me specifically with the strength training portion as well. Endurance, I have many great friends who've counseled me like Zach Bitter. I think, I don't know if you know, he's one of the greatest ultra runners ever. He's a ketogenic ultra runners, unique beast. He's helped me in because even my diet. Are you going to go after a keto approach? It will be because fats are nine calories per gram, proteins and carbs are four. So it's more weight efficient to have a fat heavy diet on ice. Yeah. So that's why it's a keto style diet. 72% of my calories are from fats that's okay nice yeah

okay and are those customized packs that you're gonna or those you buy those like off the shelf type of meals i'll be eating on expedition are they ready to eat meals yeah uh the dinners and uh lunches are freeze-dried food but one of my friends is a supplement formula designer so he made a custom supplement for antarctica for me it a beast of a supplement, a beast of a supplement. He's like all of us obsessive. So he's a master at his craft and he created a truly Epic supplement. I don't remember all the details of what it has in it off the top of my head. Cause I just love him and trust him. I was like, you know what I'm doing? Here's the problems address it. So you're not, you don't have to worry about ketosis then because you're taking in so much fat, right?

Like that's the opposite, right? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Awesome. So what are some other ways that you're training? So I want to kind of get to this. I'll stay in the physical for first before we get into it.

And I want to get into the psychological too. So what other physical things are you doing? So the tire dragging is the core hiking, a tire dragging and hiking are the two core for as far as endurance. I'm doing the intermittent hypoxic training as well. Doing recovery work with a new fit. It's a new fit newbie device. Oh,

you are. Yeah. You're familiar with the new fit. Okay. Okay. Yeah. So using the new fit as well. And then strength training,

as I said, in the gym as well, compression boots. I just got edge theory, cold tubs for recovery. Okay. Very grateful for great partners. So what is there? What's your partner there? Edge theory. Okay. Very grateful for great partners. So what is there?

What's your partner there? Edge Theory. Okay. Yeah. They're helping with the, so I got a cold tub at home that I'm using for recovery. So those, you know, just- Sounds like that. I would want to have some heat.

That we're trying to get a sauna as well. So I do, my friend runs a place in Scottsdale where they, a couple of optimized where they have saunas and cold tubs. So I do a sauna session there for recovery. But in terms of just the actual physical it's tire dragging and says the number one okay yeah um perfect let's again we'll go to work with our ecosystem to see how we can support that appreciate it brother okay and then on the mental side so mental side because this is the most of the battle here is here right you think it's more mental than physical it's inevitably going to be physical uh you know you're not but the fact of the matter here is here, right? You think it's more mental than physical? It's inevitably gonna be physical,

but you're not, but the fact of the matter is the mind's gonna break before the body. They've even done studies, they've put cyclists on, I forget exactly how it went, so forgive me if I'm not describing it entirely accurately,

but they put these on sort of these muscle tests and they would put them to the brink of exhaustion. And even when they felt like they were about to die, their muscles were at sort of 30% of their limits, right? So the mind is always, is way stronger than what we think it is. So every once in a while, they'll do hard sessions. Like just funnily enough, this is how I met my now fiance.

We had gone on a hike the first time we spent any time together. And I hadn't eaten a single calorie in five and a half days. So I was on extended fast while training every single day of that five and a half days. And I was also I think I shared this with you, we can happily go into it. I was doing a unique mental training mechanism where I was inducing trauma as a mechanism to engineer post traumatic growth. And we'll get into this in a second. But the point of this was, I know I'm going to go hungry in Antarctica, right? So I want to see how I mentally respond in a highly deprived state. I wasn't sleeping too well because I was starving. I was training. So after five and a half days of no food, we went on a five hour hike in 102 degrees,

about 3000 feet of elevation gain. I ended up getting full body cramps, throwing up, delirious. I don't remember 80% of the conversation I had with my now fiance, because we went pretty deep together. And, but I finished the hike, you know? So that like putting myself in those states to see how I respond. Can I still fight forward? Very cool. Dangerous.

Dangerous. But I'm going to go through some hard, some, I'm going to be inevitably be hungry. I think I'll lose 30, 40, 50 pounds in Antarctica. So I'll get hungry towards the end. How will I respond? So doing that, doing the mental, doing meditation is one simple thing.

So you're using, in that case, you're using physical to get to mental. To mental. Right. Through a highly deprived state. Yeah. But then doing other things like that engineering trauma. I think we've talked about how I was manipulating memories.

That's right. To create the, and I'm happy to delve into that as well. Yeah, introduce that to our community because when you when we first talked about i was like keep going like this is interesting so i looked at how how do memories work right when we think about how memories work it's not a video camera per se we think of it if i ask you what did you do for your last birthday you think of it accessing a video camera of those events right pulling together the five senses of said memory but that's not how it works the way memories actually work is every time you access a memory video camera of those events, right? Pulling together the five senses of said memory. But

that's not how it works. The way memories actually work is every time you access a memory, you're actually accessing the last time you access that memory. So memories are malleable and they keep changing. And there was a researcher, Dr. Elizabeth Loftus, who did this, all kinds of studies on memories. And she found how, how manipulated, how malleable they are. She actually even asked people after 9-11 where they were sort of right after and then five years later, and radical things had shifted, not even small things, even as big as where I was at the time, right? So looking at the malleable nature of memory and realizing that our memories are not inherently true and they can be reconstructed, I was like, all right, got it. If this is the way memories work, I'm going to use that to my

advantage to manipulate how I want future version of me to think. Because in every moment, we are creating a memory that then shapes how future version of us interacts with that moment. Okay, let's pause here. Yeah. Let's just ground this. One, I love it. You're grounded in research and then creating something net new that none of us are doing,

or I don't know anyone that's doing this. It's very practical. It's a manipulation of reality is what you're doing. And because that's what we're doing anyways, every time we call something up and we tell it a little differently. Exactly. Because we can't quite remember exactly.

We're stitching some things together. We're literally a new person each time we're telling the story. The neuronal structure is actually changing of the memory. Yeah, and we're literally, not only that, but we are literally new. Exactly. And so we're trying to recall something, but we are new in the way that we're expressing it.

And maybe it's to somebody we're shaping it just a little bit because we want them to like us differently or not, you know, whatever. So there's all of these factors that do manipulate. Yeah. They're not, you know, whatever. So there's all of these factors that do manipulate. This is why memory is one of the lowest forms of valued knowledge, right? And so because it's not fallible. Yeah, it's not inherently true. Okay, so what is the risk of doing this that you're talking about?

It can, I mean, when I share this, sometimes it can create a kind of nihilism if everything about my past construct is not true and who am i right that's that's why i was wondering if you're going to get there but i don't i think that that's not helpful the value in this is if if everything is about my past memories is not inherently true then the value is i get to create whoever i want to be because to me the fundamental answer of that deep existential question who am I? There is no quote unquote right answer,

but my answer is I'm the creator of my own illusion. I like it. If the world around us and how we interact with it is an illusory based on constructs that create us for the simplest way, why is this a blue cup that I'm holding? Because I've been taught this color is blue. I've been taught this thing is a cup.

So I attach these words onto it based on constructs that have helped create my reality. right? But there's something in pure experience beyond all constructs that again, you can't inherently verbalize because of the limitations of words. But when you start seeing that how we interact with reality is based on constructs and how even our memories are false. Like I was doing this very interesting exercise the other day in my house. I was like, what did you eat for dinner yesterday? I said, I ate a steak. How do you know you ate a steak? I can, I remember I can see that there's the steak trash. Yeah, but you don't really know because you know, memories are lying. And then so, and I would go down this sort of schizophrenic self dialogue till all I had to do to prove to myself

was that I don't a hundred percent know. Now, when there's an inkling of doubt that I don't know, awesome. If I don't really know, I can just create anything I want, because the past only serves to shape my present and the future I want to create. So how I use this for my training when I was in the Arctic earlier this year, right? I was training in the Arctic, knowing that when I come out of the Arctic, there's a future version of me that's going to have a memory of this event. That memory will shape how I engage with my training. It'll shape my desire to go back to Antarctica, right? I mean, like, let's say I think about the Arctic

and I'm like, oh, fuck, that was terrible. It was the worst experience ever. I'm not gonna be excited about Antarctica. But I, and don't get me wrong, there's suffering in all these trips. So there's suffering in the Arctic. So, but what I would do is every night in the Arctic, when I was in my tent alone, I would smile.

I would listen to happy music. I'd remember awesome things about the day. I would sitting there kind of shaping how I want to remember this day in the present because knowing it's not inherently true, none of it. As soon as that moment is over, that version of me that, like you said, you're not a new person, right? No man sets foot in the same river twice. So that version of me is now dead.

The version of me that woke up this morning is never going to exist again. Got it. So I want to manipulate that version based on whoever I want it to be. So every night in the Arctic tent, I was sitting there smiling, thinking through this memory, knowing that this future version of me will think about this event a particular way and how I think about that event will then shape what I do. So you can manipulate this for everything. Cause if I look at every run that let's say I'm going for a run or a person training for a marathon and every run I come back from it, I'm like, oh, that was terrible. How was, how was it going to shape how I interact going for a run, I'm a person training for a marathon, and every run I come back from it, I'm like, oh, that was terrible.

How is it gonna shape how I interact with the next run? Or anything hard. Or anything hard. Because our memories shape how we, I mean, well, how do I know to pick this up and I don't have to think about what to do with this? Because I have a memory, right? And a small example.

But our memories are constantly being formed and they're constantly shaping how we engage with the world. The meta of this is awesome. It's really cool. And so you're purposely designing the way that you're sending signals to the formation of memory so that when you do recall something, you know, it's going to be manipulated and, but which is fine, right? I guess. But that manipulation is intentional to be able to serve you well for the person you want to be later. So I'm shaping how my future self will think about that event while I'm doing that event.

Yeah. So we can use our imagination to go forward to imagine the person that we want to be later. Yeah. Okay. So that's mental performance visualization. Okay. So that's that process. You are in real time shaping the way that you're going to call up memories of your past

to serve you well. Yeah. And so we can all do a version of this. Of course. One of the ways that we do this with athletes is that we have them practice their highlight reels in their own mind so that when they get chin checked and they're really in the thick of the fight, if you will, the memories that are most available to them are their highlight reels. Them doing hard things and being extraordinary in challenging, difficult environments, they're right below the surface.

So when you're going to reach down into your bag to see if you have what it takes, what do you come up with? A bunch of epic memories. So that's one way we use our imagination is to go back literally. So you're using the more temporal, you're using the day's experience and anchoring that to serve you well in the future. Love that concept. We're using imagery or highlight reels to go way back. Yeah.

Right. To like maybe 10 years from now or 10 years ago or 10 weeks ago. Yeah. And bring those memories up to your surface and play them often. Yes. So it's another way that you can play with it as your highlight reels to have those and your shaping of the, your past memories. That's awesome, dude. It's super creative.

Thank you, brother. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because that's what I'll also do. Like the, what I call like the legacy list is looking at all the reasons I'm a badass to have that tap into kind of what you said, the highlight reel. That's a highlight reel. Yeah.

And I'd also like, right after you're done, I do want to like, maybe we won't know for like 10 years from now, like, did you alter the course of your understanding of reality by manipulating the memories that are only good, that are only serving the version of you that you think you're going to be. But it's not actually maybe who you are going to be. Like it's setting you down an interesting path. I got you. There's a meta on a meta here. Yeah, man. I'm super excited about what you're doing and how you show up in the world. Thank you, brother.

And we need people like you to show us and remind us that I'll just use one insight that you shared is that our mind tends to break before our body. Right. And so if we strengthen our mind, guess what? We might be able to take, you know, our potential to a different place.

Absolutely. Yeah. So what, tell us how we can support you. And I've got, um us how we can support you. And I've got, before we wrap, I want to understand that.

And I want to give you some legends that we've had on the podcast and share a couple insights that they've had and just hear your, your, your response to them. Yeah. But so how can we help

and support you? Because if, if I understand correctly that you're, you need to raise money, but you're not making money. You're not squirreling away a million dollars, a hundred thousand, $10,000 you're not making money. You're not squirreling away a million dollars, a hundred thousand, $10,000 at the end of this. You're like, I got over on them.

You're not doing that. So tell us more. The cost of this journey is $750,000. Not a number I made up, ALE, which is Antarctic Logistics and Expeditions, to put together this journey for multiple reasons, the medical staff, the flights to some of the most remote corners of the world. They're actually extending Antarctic season just for me, which means, you know, radio operator of pilot all on staff. That's the quote that was given to me. So all of that money that we're raising goes directly to ALE to make this happen. I'm not, as you said, making a dollar off it. So we've started a crowdfunding campaign.

We've raised $203,000 so far. I have $175,K coming from two large donors in India early next year to where that puts us about 380K. So still have a ways to go though. And that crowdfunding campaign, I mean, anything to support on there, we have like a different donation tiers. I'm also giving away access to some of my, all the mindset training I've done over the years. Like one of the coolest things I've done, I think we've touched on this before too. I went deep into studying method acting as a tool

to train my mind to become who I need to be. That was incorporating the method, the memory stuff. So I have all my method acting training on there. So at greatsoulcrossing.com, that's greatsoulcrossing.com. A great or no A? No, just greatsoulcrossing.com. And that's the no just great great soul soul crossing.com and that's the crowd funding crowdfunding page where at the different donation tiers we're giving away stuff and uh

as i said 100 of that money goes directly to making this happen i'm not making a dollar of it just to pulling this off so i'm in i'm personally going to be in and i'll go to that website and do that. And I also like, imagine if you're listening right now and you want to support a member of our finding mastery community, um, this would be a great way to do it. And so imagine if, if everyone, $1, $10, $100, like it just, it just adds up and come on. So I want to tell you to pause right now, flip over to great soul crossing.com and, uh, you know, add in, be part of it. And then what you and I can do at three, your training, let's stay connected. Let's have some mini updates. We'll float them in our, in, in our, um, podcast, you know, uh, flow and just kind of updates from the frontier. And so that would

be really cool to do. And listen, I'm in and of course I'm going to open my wallet, but I'm going to support you in other ways as well. Whatever I can do. Thank you so much. Okay. So yeah. So it takes an army to pull this off.

I mean, I'm alone out of the ice, but even up to this point, the amount of people that come together, it's humbling and it means the world. Yeah. So you got the, you got the bat phone. Call me anytime. Hit me up. That is a privilege and I'm in it so you got the you got the bat phone call me anytime hit me up um that is uh a privilege and i'm in it with you thank you so um can i give you a couple quotes that some

folks have yeah all right um this is a quote from uh kai lenny one of the greatest big wave surfers on the planet he is a true waterman he is amazing amazing. He's pushing the edges. People are watching what he's doing on big waves and going, oh my goodness. Okay. So he says, I ride big waves because I feel like it touches on the fear of the unknown. So when you hear that, what do you, what do you hear about that? I think that's the place to go. The fear of the, I mean, it's, it is, the unknown is scary. It's the nature, the inherent, very nature of the unknown is scary, but that's, that's the gift. That's the, that's where the magic lies. You know, that's one of the reasons why I go to do the things I do as well. Dr. Kapil Parak, the senior medical lead at Google has a opposing view. And he says, and he comes from a cardiovascular discipline. He says, the risk that these kinds of things as a cardiologist, where I see most people

run into trouble is my mantra for most people that I talk to is to start low and go slow. If you really push yourself, it's one thing if you're an athlete and you're a professional or semi-professional athlete, you've done this act or you understand your body, you know how much to push yourself. Most people who are sedentary and when they start doing something like this, the risk of injury, the risk of heart attacks actually goes up. So if you look at the exercise in your heart attack data, so if you look at the exercise in your heart attack data, there is a peak of risk of heart attack. When you start exercising, it goes up. And the reason it goes up is because people are doing crazy things.

When you hear Kapil say that, how do you respond? I mean, I would agree. I didn't get to doing Antarctic ski training to ski across Antarctica overnight, right? This was cultivated over many, many, many years of playing on the edges, moving up that ladder one inch at a time. I mean, even when I tell people about the five and a half days of no food and doing a five, I would not recommend that to most people that can be very dangerous. I had trained to that, to get to that point. So I think if somebody's listening, don't go drag a massive tire your first day, if you've ever exercised, of course, start walking,

start, then move to a 1K run, 2K. Push yourself. Again, our edge is different. The whole goal is find that edge where you're feeling a bit of pain, suffering a little bit, struggling, then push that a little further and push it a little further. And then that's how you start attaining

those new awakenings and also exploring. The whole point when you push that edge, your normal becomes a new normal. But the point of attaining a new normal is not to now say safely nestled in that new normal. It's so you can find another edge to play on, right? That's the whole goal is you uplevel the new normal to find a new edge. And edge does not mean Antarctica again, right? It's an emotional edge. I was more nervous going on a date with my now fiance. I kid you not, I had butterflies, anxiety in my stomach more than doing everything that I do, you know? So

that was an edge for me, but it worked out pretty well. So find and play on that edge. Love it. Tulam is a legendary warrior. And he says, yeah, trauma, it holds us down. It scars us. It traps us from living a life that's really true to being anything more than who we are today. If you're living today in addictions, trying to fill the void of this trauma, you're not going to be anything more than that. When you hear that, how do you respond? Trauma can be the most beautiful avenue to post-traumatic growth. It does not have to be post-traumatic stress disorder. We've created a paradigm in a society that says trauma equals disorder, but that's not inherently true, right? Post-traumatic stress can easily lead to post-traumatic growth as well. So it's our

paradigms coming back to everything we've talked about, our paradigms, our constructs, our view on reality that helps us reframe our very relationship to trauma as well. That so we don't get lost in addictions, which he has, I have myself. I didn't respond well after the war, but that's why now I literally engineer post-trauma to create traumatic growth

because it's a new paradigm on how we view it. So I think that's one of the core shifts is, like there was a great study, Dr. Martin Seligman, he went to West Point and he asked the cadets, how many of you have heard of post-traumatic stress disorder? It was something like 95%. Then he asked him, how many of you have heard of post-traumatic growth?

5%. So it's become a self-fulfilling prophecy that then becomes true because that's our paradigm of reality. That's right. It does not have to go that way. Exactly. Trauma can be beautiful.

Tommy Caldwell. Yeah. Legendary climber. Yeah. I asked him about doing something that other people think is crazy. I want to ask you the same question. When somebody says, you know, when they ask me about you and they say, yeah, but like, what makes, like, why? Like, he's crazy. That's crazy. Like, and I say, no, he's not crazy, you know? And they go, well, yeah, you know? So there's a, there's a bristling to the, to the, even the idea that you must not love your mom because you're going to go out into this dangerous condition.

So how do you respond to when people think what you're doing is crazy? I get it a lot, as you imagine into, again, to each their own. But I think when people hear the why behind it, when they see me, you imagine, into again, to each their own. But I think when people hear the why behind it, when they see me, in fact, just yesterday, two days ago, I was on a hike, and somebody had met me through a friend. And she literally at the end of the hike goes, you're not as crazy as I thought. Because they hear what I do. And they think this dude's just psycho. And then you see when you spend time to normal human being, this is my expression of my path to growth, to enlightenment,

to transcendence, the very things we all seek, you know? And I think when you explain it and they get the why, like it makes sense in a way, right? They're like, oh, that makes sense. So I share it to somebody willing to hear it. Look, there are people who, after I got frostbite, tons of people were like, what's wrong with you? Why would you go back to Antarctica? You're stupid. To some, I don't bother. Look, you think what you want to think. But if I'm at a talk speaking event or something, I think when people hear the why, they get it. And what, in a sentence, what's the why? Well, I think there's two things, selfish and selfless. Selfish, in the simplest way, awaken my own Buddhahood. Selflessly, to bring the wisdom back from the edge to help other people

cross their own antarctica whatever it may be very cool very cool so no one does it alone you've got a full team that supports you you're going to do a quote-unquote solo and you will be out there by yourself um can you just tell me a little bit about the team that's supporting you yeah i have nutritionist uh trainer my soon-to-be wife, obviously my parents that have supported financially. We're working with the documentary team who have gone above and beyond the call of duty to film a documentary around this. So people who have supported financially, people who have supported in every way like Zach Bitter, like the guys who are helping me with the nutritional element, with the training element. People like yourself who have asked questions like I did and followed your stuff with the training element, people like yourself who have asked questions like I did and followed your stuff with the mental element, you know? So like my polar mentors, I have polar mentors like

Eric Phillips, like Lou Rudd, who've taught me the polar skills to get me here. I mean, it's literally an army of people, you know, who come together in every little, under the multiple buckets of skills I need to make the pull this off, you know, right? There's so many different buckets and in each one, there's someone who's supported, continues to support and guide me multiple buckets of skills I need to make the pull this off. You know, right? There's so many different buckets. And in each one, there's someone who's supported, continues to support and guide me in this realm. I couldn't do it without that. On the business model, do you have like sponsors that are supporting you?

We do not have in-kind sponsors. So in-kind sponsors like Edge Theory, Tecton, Akito and Easter Drinks. In-kind financial sponsors, not yetkind sponsors like Edge Theory, Tecton, Akito, and Easter Drinks. In-kind financial sponsors, not yet, where it's been more challenging. Well, I mean like brands. In-kind is cool and or cash,

like if a company wanted to give cash or whatever. Yeah, we do have in-kind sponsors for sure. You're just featuring them in your, whatever you're sharing about it. Yeah, sharing. And then once we pull this off, it'll be quite big once we, you know, once we. I love it. Maybe Finding Mastery,

I'm going to kind of poke the community one more time. Maybe we find, you know, the X number of thousands of dollars that we generate to get a sticker on your website. I would be honored, brother. You know, like we should talk about like what that is. Yeah. And I'll put it in the intro as a call to action.

Put a Finding Mastery sticker on the sled. Yeah, right. Let's figure that out. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, we want to support you intro as a call to action. Put a Finding Mastery sticker on the sled. Yeah, right. Let's figure that out. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, we want to support you in as many ways we can. Thank you. You got me in your corner.

Thank you. And I hope the full weight of the community can show up as well. Like that would be rad. Yeah. So anything else before we wrap this up? Well, one, just deep gratitude to you, to the community for even having me, for being back here. It's always such an honor.

I've learned so much from you, you over the years so just thank you and to anybody listening you know if there's one thing you get from this yeah that like the you can listen to a podcast read a book all you want but the arena is where the wisdom lies right you have to go into the arena and that's where the wisdom is the growth the awakening the bliss that is the human experience and one one final thing I'll stress is when I, clearly you've heard me in someone who thrives on the edge of suffering, but I also thrive on the edge of play and thrive on the edge of laughter. Like when we're hanging out, I'm always laughing.

And so the point of that is to say, play on all edges of all of life's dualities. And that's what gives life flavor. That's how you feel awe in this human experience that we have. And I think that's what I want from everybody. That's what I hope to teach through these lessons of the great soul crossing is for everybody to have their own great soul crossing and feel more awe in this human experience.

Yeah, baby. What do we title this episode? What do you think? Coming back from the dark edges? The dark, what did we say before? Or is it maybe- Coming back from the dark. I think that's how I started, yeah. The crossing yeah all right man i appreciate you dude thank you

brother i can't wait to to be part of this adventure with you i'm so honored thank you so much for all the love and support man it really means a lot brother thank you i appreciate you thank you ditto all right thank you so much for diving into another episode of finding mastery with us our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no-cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're listening. Also, if you haven't already, please consider dropping us a review on Apple or Spotify. We are incredibly grateful for the support and feedback. If you're looking for the support and feedback.

If you're looking for even more insights, we have a newsletter we send out every Wednesday. Punch over to findingmastery.com slash newsletter to sign up. The show wouldn't be possible without our sponsors and we take our recommendations seriously.

And the team is very thoughtful about making sure we love and endorse every product you hear on the show. If you want to check out any of our sponsor offers you heard about in this episode, you can find those deals at findingmastery.com slash sponsors. And remember, no one does it alone. The door here at Finding Mastery is always open to those looking to explore the edges and the reaches of their potential so that they can help others do the same. So join our community,

share your favorite episode with a friend and let us know how we can continue to show up for you. Lastly, as a quick reminder, information in this podcast and from any material on the Finding Mastery website and social channels is for information purposes only. If you're looking for meaningful support, which we all need, one of the best things

you can do is to talk to a licensed professional. So seek assistance from your healthcare providers. Again, a sincere thank you for listening. Until next episode, be well, think well, keep exploring.