Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Finding Meaning in Life After Basketball | NBA Legend, Chris Bosh

Episode Date: August 4, 2021

This week’s conversation is with Chris Bosh, an 11-time NBA All-Star, 2-time Champion and the NBA’s first Global Ambassador of Basketball.Chris fell in love with basketball at an early age and earned the prestigious “Mr. Basketball” title while still at Lincoln High School in Dallas, Texas. A McDonald’s All-American, Chris was selected fourth overall by the Toronto Raptors after one year attending Georgia Tech. Chris would eventually leave the Raptors to team up Lebron James and Dwyane Wade with the Miami Heat, where he would win two NBA championships, yet had his playing days cut short during his prime by a freak medical condition. His extraordinary career ended not at a time of his choosing but “in a doctor’s office in the middle of the afternoon.” Chris was forced to reckon with how to find meaning to carry forward, and that really sets the tone for this conversation.We discuss what led to his success during his time in the league and how he found meaning in his life post-basketball - something I know many other athletes can relate to._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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your butt. Okay, welcome back or welcome to the Finding Mastery podcast. I'm Michael Gervais, and by trade and training, I am a sport and performance psychologist, and I am fortunate to work with some of the top performers across the planet. And the whole idea behind these conversations, behind this podcast, is to learn from the extraordinaries. We're going to pull back the curtain. We're going to explore how they've committed to both mastering their craft and their minds. And our minds are our greatest asset.

And if you want to learn more about how you can train your mind, just like world-class performers train their mind, this is a quick little reminder here to check out the online psychological training course that I created with the head coach of the Seattle Seahawks, Pete Carroll, and you can find that at findingmastery.net forward slash course. Finding Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Solutions. In any high-performing environment that I've been part of, from elite teams to executive boardrooms, one thing holds true. Meaningful relationships are at the center of sustained success. And building those relationships, it takes more than effort. It takes a real caring about your people.

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And a few of our teammates here at Finding Mastery have been loving the fudge brownie and peanut butter. I know, Stuart, you're still listening here. So getting enough protein matters. And that can't be understated, not just for strength, but for energy and focus, recovery, for longevity. And I love that David is making that easier. So if you're trying to hit your daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for

you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value, and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash finding mastery. Now, this week's conversation is with Chris Bosch. He's an 11-time NBA All-Star, a two-time champion, and the NBA's first global ambassador of basketball. I'm really excited to have him on the podcast. We've come to learn that he fell in love with basketball at an early age. And then he went on to earn the prestigious Mr. Basketball title while at the Lincoln High School in Dallas, Texas. He went on to become a McDonald's All-American. It's a big deal in

the basketball world. And then eventually Chris was selected fourth overall in the draft by the Toronto Raptors one year after attending Georgia Tech. So he was on this fast track, this high ascendance, if you will. And Chris though would eventually leave the Raptors to team up with LeBron James and Dwayne Wade with the Miami Heat. And I'm sure you, if you follow basketball, you remember those three that were just fantastic and dynamic and like almost unstoppable is what it felt like. And there they would win two NBA championships together. Yet his playing days, they were cut short during his prime by a freak medical condition. So this extraordinary career that he had, this fast track, it ended in a doctor's office in the middle of the afternoon, as he puts it.

So Chris was forced to reckon with how to find meaning and to carry forward. And that really sets the tone for this conversation. And we discuss what led to his success during his time in the league and how he found meaning in his life post-basketball, something I know many other athletes can relate to. And if you're not an athlete, meaning and purpose are two of the big rocks to get in the container for fulfillment, for living a life with zest and an inner fire, you know, where you're, you've got that feeling in your belly where it's like you wake up in the morning, you just want to get after it.

So we get into the mechanics of purpose and meaning. Now, I can't tell you how important that is. If you have it, you know it. So we get into the mechanics of purpose and meaning. Now, I can't tell you how important that is. If you have it, you know it. If you don't have it, this might be one of the first things you walk away from this conversation and say, okay, how am I going to get clear on purpose and meaning in my life? There's some science that would support it. It is in the online course that we built. And I'll just share with you right now that there's no exact roadmap for purpose and meaning, but there are some big clues that are left behind from those that are very clear about their purpose and meaning. And so here's one of the kind of nuggets that I want you to wrestle with is that nobody can give you purpose.

Nobody can make it meaningful to you. You have to do the inner work. The second is your purpose needs to be bigger than you. How about that? And the third, it needs to have a future orientation, meaning that it's something that you're working toward. Now with that, let's jump right into this week's conversation with the NBA legend, Chris Bosh. Chris, how are you? I'm great. I'm great, man. How are you?

You got fire. You've got fire in your belly. You've had it your whole career. And I'm so stoked to sit down with you. Yeah, absolutely. I've never heard someone describe that to me in that context when describing me, but it's actually a concept that I used to talk about actually, fire in the belly, like having breathing techniques, building up the fire and stuff like that. And I always tried to bring some passion and bring some energy to the game. That was always like my favorite form of expression. So man, thanks for having me. Oh, that's cool. Yeah, I think, you know, when I think of you, you've got, you know, you've got incredible talent, both from obviously a technical side and a physical side, but reading your work

and listening to how you make sense of things, it's evident to me that you've spent time investigating your inner life. And I don't know if you did it formally, like you had help and you had, whether it be a spiritual leader or psychologist or just really switched on people, you know, wherever you grew up, but have you done some of the inner lifting? Yeah. I mean, um, it's definitely a part of the job, especially if you want to be successful, in my opinion. I guess it's something that I really can't describe, I guess, from an early age. I was just always just kind of aware of certain particular things, aware of how I felt about things. I didn't talk much as a kid. I was very reserved, very quiet. But where I'm from,

you have to have a very vivid imagination to kind of stay stimulated. And, you know, that's kind of, I guess that's where it came from. Just a lot of time just in quiet solitude, quiet time with family, riding in cars, just hours and hours and hours of sitting. And, you know, I think that's where it comes from. Okay. So let's pause on that because I've got a story in my mind, which is like, you had to drive a lot to tournaments and practices. I'm guessing that that's what you're referring to. But when you said where I came from, what, what does that mean? I'm from Hutchins, Texas, small town, Hutchins, Texas. It's about,

at the time it was about 2,000, 2,500 people living there, somewhere in there. And now it's like tripling size, you know, Dallas continues to grow big, but it's the next city south of Dallas. And so that's where I lived. It was more of a rural industrial area, you know, middle to lower middle class town. And although I had my friends in the city where I stayed, it, you know, the joke was the country, I stayed in the country so that was kind of that's what I mean by that so a lot of you know picking up sticks and making up games and hopefully playing with friends but you've got to walk you know hopefully they'll meet you halfway a lot of riding bikes you know those things like the kids in the sandlot do that was very, very, very, very close to, you know, how our childhood was. Okay. So you've seen the world,

you have traveled the globe, you've won gold medals. You've, you know, you've won at the highest level multiple times in the NBA and a premier all-star like you've you've done it you've you're a global citizen and a world-class world-leading performer in your craft when you look back at that small rural experience what did you what did you grab what did you learn what was infused or if we use a tech term what was installed just by the environment that you grew up in? Man, so many different things. What do you mean? Like growing up in or traveling the world? Let's go. No, I want to go back to the origin. So looking back now that you've been to the big cities and everything and looking back, like what was, what did you, what was materially important

from that young experience? You know what, just being a kid, being a child, having the ability to do that. It never got too serious, too quick for me. I always loved basketball. It was always a part of what I wanted to do. I did it, but I more so did it on the playground, did it with my friends. It wasn't about the leagues right away. Even though I did play early, it was only for about 10 weeks out of the year. So other than that, I'm going to practice or, you know, playing with my friends. And so, you know, that's when I look back on it, that's what I love the most about my childhood, just being allotted the time to process these things as a child and have those experiences as a kid. Like I said before, riding your bike, you know, getting

chased by dogs, you know, going to the recreation center, having, you know, great times at summer camp. Those were, you know, major parts in what I experienced. Okay. Do you consider your childhood to have innocence? Yeah. Yeah, I think so. I mean, you know, there's the yin and the yang, right? But yeah, absolutely. Being able to have, yeah, have those innocent type of thoughts, but especially, definitely being a kid, being protected. You know, at the time, my mom and dad did a good job of, you know, protecting us and making sure we're staying in our studies. My grandmother lived next door, you know, so, you know, there wasn't much wiggle room. Even if you wanted to sneak out the house, there's nowhere to go. There's nothing but wooded area around. So we had that, that bubble within everything. And, you know, that, that I feel kind of allowed us

to do that. Because yeah, when you grow up, you know, we, we had so many friends that you just want to grow up so fast. And when you do, you know, you can't get that time back. And they always talk about wanting it back. Yeah. No kidding. That's why I was wondering if you, it sounds like that bubble that you're describing created a bubble of innocence where you could be a kid and play and you didn't have to have the adult mind at play. Like how, what am I going to be? And what am I going to do? And like, but I did read about, I think when you're in maybe age 14 or something, you had a bit of a pushback, like you need to put on weight, you know, like you're too skinny and you had some of that body stuff that I want to get into. And you also, if I got it right, you were part of some nerd clubs. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Hey,

I'm all about it too. Cause when I was reading about what you did, I was like, right on. Oh, we could get, we could get into that. Yeah. So that geek stuff. Okay. But so you had, so that was a little later. And the reason I bring up the nerd stuff in, in jest is because if I understood correctly, you kind of had to hide that part of you, your, your intelligence, your smartness, your, you know, your interest in the non-athletic stuff, which I think is, it's important in your shaping. So, but hold on before, before we go there, because I think this is really important. I want to go back to this idea of your dining room, living room, kitchen table, wherever you guys gathered

to spend most of your meals. If there was one, two, three words that you say, these are the themes that kept showing up at the dinner table or breakfast table, wherever you guys congregated for food, what would those themes be? We would, my aunt and my grandma would always alternate Thanksgiving meals. And then even on top of that, we would probably eat over their house, maybe once every other month, once a month, quite often. Laughter, nothing in particular, but just laughing. That was a very huge family staple.

We wanted to have a good time. We want to laugh. Definitely an apparent thing was being aware of where we are and our environment and how we hang out in that environment. You know, I got a sense of like, if my big cousin came by, okay, I can kind of tell what he did that day. He's way older than us so he'll

take my dad and you know at that time they'll have their lingo and stuff like that or if we're sitting at the table my aunt um who's the matriarch of the family she'll you know yeah just current events talk about something what's in the news It was always very current and, you know, just just expressing yourself in a funny way most of the times. But, you know, always having a great time, always feeling the love. And it didn't always have to be a holiday for that. Like I say, it could just be a Sunday and my aunt Claudia, she'll cook, you know, and we'll go over on top of the Thanksgivings and the Christmases and stuff like that. And it was just always a great time. So I would say that's, um, that was, that was kind of the thing you go there to have a good time and joke and laugh, you know? Okay. Would you say you've carried that forward in your professional career and even post post athletics?

Oh, yeah, absolutely. That was a huge part of coming up in basketball that I found was great as a tool for leadership. Anytime we were on the road, let's go out to eat together. Let's have this meal as a team there's something about sitting down and having those conversations around the dinner table the breakfast table the lunch table whatever it is with your team and I found that to be something to where you could really really build connections and those connections ended up helping us be as successful as we could be on the court, right? Because you have to have, you have to know who the person is that you're playing with or that you're working with. And I found that those dinners sitting down and it's a way to kind of forget about everything else.

Sure, there's enough, you know, time to in the day to get the troubles through or whatever. But right now, hey, we're having a good meal and just joking laughing maybe watching the game and you know I even um pass that down to our kids I have five children and so my wife and I we will go out and we'll take them and say hey we're sitting at the table and we're going to sit together whether that's here if I'm barbecuing on the weekend or if we say hey let's go out to eat, you know, this weekend, we'll, you know, sit down as a family. And I want them to get used to that and have the manners and be able to present yourself at a function. You know, those are very important skills to have. Okay. I love this. I'll tell you why. When I hear you describe what

you're describing, you know, people talk about, you got to. When I hear you describe what you're describing, you know, people talk about, you got to know your people, you know, you, you got to build the relationships if you want to do hard things, which is flat out. I'm nodding my head because to do the extraordinary, it's so big and beautiful. Nobody can do it alone. Yeah. We need, we need each other. Yeah. And what happens for most people is when they feel stress, if they're not really connected to others, they're going to save your own ass as opposed to like be in the foxhole with you. Right. Absolutely. Yeah. And so, you know what I love about what you're describing though? It's not so much that I'm hearing that you leveraged an authentic, well-grooved truth for you, which is, hey, let's laugh, let's eat together, let's build relationships, and let's practice being fully

present. There's troubles that we got to worry about later or wrestle with later. But right now, let's practice being present with fun, with food, with each other. And then I bet that that would translate into bonding and present focus when you're trying to, you know, you're down by four and it's finals or whatever, like you're practicing being present. Yeah. Well, one of those things, the main thing that it does is it builds trust because you can talk on, you know how to talk to this person because and then you know and understand and say we're on the same team. That's always my big thing. Let's watch how we communicate with each other.

We're on the same team. And even if it does flare up, we got to button it up, you know, and it's always coming from a place of passion. But just you have to build that up because in the finals, your comrade is going to make a mistake. And you're going to make a mistake. And sometimes it might be a turnover that leads to a fast break. You can't say, oh, not again. You immediately that quick have to say, get back. And not that you have to be mad at the person, but you know, if you don't know that person, it's like, oh, you know, you'll have a reaction that you shouldn't have. And it'll be that split second between that possession that could have won the game or could have lost the game.

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Okay, let me play this out because I hear you clearly, which is be present, let go of things that are distracting you from the unfolding moment ahead of you, right? Say it's a turnover and let's say it's a costly turnover. And I think it's also important probably to just level set, like, I don't know, how many mistakes would you make per game? More than one. I don't even want to, I still haven't counted. I disagree with whoever told me.

Yeah. It's like we make mistakes, you know, to your point, it's not just one mistake. It's like, there's mistakes being made, micro mistakes. Sometimes they're costly. Sometimes they're not. Sometimes you get away with it. Um, but, but I hear you saying, okay, you gotta, you gotta recognize it, drop it, get back, be an athletic defensive stance or whatever you need to do to, to, to meet the demand. And then I hear the other part of me says, um, okay, all true. However, there's context with this. So the context is let's say that you and I are playing and in practice, I'm constantly putting myself in a bad situation, right? Because

I'm putting it, I'm trying to, I'm driving to the hoop with my my dominant hand and i should be putting it on my off hand and then in the game i put it on my dominant hand i should have put it in the off hand and it gets blocked fast fast break turn it's like the mistake that i keep making in practice everyone's jumping my shit about it during practice and then it happens in the game time and you know that i went out the night before played a little bit you know too much xbox or you know like right okay so yeah okay so now it's compounded yeah how do you do you still have the discipline to say right or do you get rattled did you ever get rattled uh in those situations as well well i mean you know before that situation even happens if you're aware of a teammate that's probably not up to par,

you would hopefully have conversations before it gets to that point. Or you guys, through the bonding, can have enough respect for each other to say, hey, because that's the main part, right? We're going to have to correct each other's mistakes. We're going to have to listen to the mistakes. And it has to come from someone you respect. You know, you just can't be strangers in the locker that level to say, hey, look, if you did this, you might be looking at some success. Hey, you might want to get some rest. You know what I mean? Like and hopefully you nip it in the butt before getting to that point. But either way, you know, you can correct things. You still don't want to throw it in someone's face. That's kind of one of the things I've learned about being, you know, the main thing about being in the locker room for so many years is that we're constantly nitpicking and picking things apart and pointing out our mistakes and saying we got to get better until you win a championship, if you're lucky enough. You know, there is a delicacy to talking to people, to talking to your teammates, to demanding some people you have to push, some people you have to pull,

you know, motivation, you might have to light a fire. Some, you might have to hold on, you know, let's, let's bring it down a notch, you know. So and you can only know that through that bonding. So, you know, I say overall, it's just it's just something you continue to have to to have to fill out. And, yeah, in the mistakes, you can't say, aha, see, that's why, man, that's the quickest way to lose somebody. You have to encourage people, you have to be together. And it's always going to be hopefully another possession, another game, or another practice. So even if those things do happen, you address it the next time. You address the next time until the mistake is corrected. I imagine that you are coachable. I imagine that you crave being coached, that you're, you are, you didn't have to read the book on being a beginner's mind or being a true

learner. It feels to me like you are that. And so two part question. One is, are you trying to be your best or the best? Part one, part two, how did you provide feedback to be the best and um the problem with that is is that it's relative i hate the argument who's the best i hate it you know and you know if if i'm my best then if i'm i'm that means i'm getting my best potential being the best it could. That's too egotistically driven. And especially on the team that we were on. I had to fall back offensively, you know, and some responsibility on a team. If I was in my first seven years and I was in Toronto, I'm getting, you know, about 20 touches, 15 to 20 touches in, in a certain particular area. So my ability to function was very high and I'm used to getting the ball here and being the focal point. But in this one, it's more of more spread.

And, you know, Dwayne and Brian, they're ball dominant players, you know, so they're going to be the ones making the plays. And, you know, we had to trust in those dynamics, you know, so they're going to be the ones making the plays. And, you know, we had to trust in those dynamics, you know, so. And by that time in our career, we knew that we had to come together to win. You know that you have to be a team to be able to gel and win. So anytime we spoke to each other, we knew that we were coming from a place of love, that we're coming from a place of winning. We all have winning character. We had all known each other since we've been in our teenage years, you know, going up through the basketball circuit. So it was it was coming from a place that, you know, out of respect and knowing that

we want to be champions one day. So let's make the best out of it. You, you, you skirted the question on how'd you coach them? Oh, how would I? Okay. How I thought you said, how did I communicate? How would I coach him? Yeah. Let, let, yeah. Let them do what they want to do. Let them do what they want to do. Where do you want to get the ball? Okay, cool. I believe, I believe that for you. Like this is, so knowing your path, let me, let me like put it in my own language a little bit is that you are, you're the go-to on the teams that you

came up on. You were the guy. Now there's a chance to go work with two other folks who are the guys yeah and in some respects i when i was watching and i don't know the locker room at all about what you guys were doing but i'm like oh so you took a little bit i don't want to say backseat that's not that's not fair but you definitely took the team role you you value team over chris's you know um for sure and those guys do too you know they do as well i see i don't know yeah yeah i think the way you know if i were a coach um during that time the way i would coach you know those guys and the way that they do it you know lebron he already has a mind that you know we all had minds that could kind of transcend a game plan. Right. You just want to have a solid foundation, a system as a team.

It's kind of a thing you have to earn their respect every day. And at the same time, you know, you have to be aware that the players are the one out there on the court. So it will be constant conversations about what they see, how they feel. I would tell them what I see. And on top of everything, I would challenge them. That's the biggest thing. You know, both of those guys in their primes could roll out of bed and get 35 to 50 points a night. So it's really not about talent. It's about, you know, lighting that fire,

recognizing if I need this person to do this or that. And having that open monologue of conversation, nothing, nothing too outside the norms of, of what makes great coaches great yeah here's um i'm wondering if you have this type of experience steve kerr shared this with me about um when he was playing with michael jordan and so jordan jordan brings the ball down shakes him you know takes it like an 18 footer, one step 18 footer. Jordan, you know the story, brings it down again. This is in practice. Shakes Steve, you know, same shot. Third time and I'm kind of taking some liberties in the story. Brings them down, same move, one step over, you know, 18 footer drains it and then kind of, you know, squares up with Steve. It's like, when are you going to actually kind of stop me? you know i'm being pg here and then pops him in the mouth during practice and do you know the story do you know the story yeah yeah yeah okay so and again this was steve telling it and i'm taking liberties and whatever but do you have those experiences what like confrontational

things or yeah like because like you guys are alphas the three you guys are alphas yeah we never we never had a confrontation where it came to dukes nothing even close um you know did we have healthy debates absolutely plenty of them um you know i'm sure i said some things that they probably didn't care for and vice versa. But we always, always, always never let anything fester. I think that's the biggest thing. If something was said, if we have to have a conversation, a team meeting, we have to have it immediately within the next 24 to 48 hours. That's usually how we did it. I actually, there's a story that I referenced to in my book. It's not those two, but it was with Eric Spolstra, the head coach. We were in the middle of a game and I just wasn't, you know, I just wasn't in a good move for

whatever reason. And we're letting this game slip away. So that's adding, you know, it's just dumping gasoline on the fire and i knew i kind you know as a player when you're playing well enough to win or lose the game we're about to lose the game and he was saying something and i can't even remember what he was saying but i just started going off and ah man i was so upset and we kind of went back and forth and i could tell he didn't really care for it. He was a little, you know, he was upset after the game. We were all upset, you know.

And on top of that, we're going into Golden State for the next game. So I know we're about to lose two in a row. This is our first couple games on a West Coast trip. You know, and then the next morning, Spoh, he hit me, he texted me and said, hey, let's do breakfast. And that next morning, you know, we talked, ooh, I told him where I was coming from, he told me where he was coming from. We went back to practice and, you know,

I made sure that I communicated with the team to let them know that that was wrong. You know, I was wrong. Let's go. Let's prepare for tomorrow. Cause we need a good practice today. We've got a hell of a team we're playing tomorrow. Could I, if my ego wanted to hold onto it, could I have said if I'm wrong or whatever, or not tell the team, that's great. Well, when the 15th guy on the bench barks at coach about some bs and then he starts losing the team well whose

fault is it it kind of goes into that what if what if and you don't want it to get there so you know we we always came from a place of respect that was um always something that we said and those moments do happen. You know, it doesn't have to be a, Oh my God, how can you speak to me like that? Then you never talk about it. No, I'm speaking to you like this cause I want to win. And then you got to come to that understanding. You know what I like about that framework? It is in sport.

It happens all the time. Exactly what you talked about. There's a flare, then there's a private moment and then then it becomes public. The public piece is the reconciling. It is the recapturing the essence of the relationship. It's the explaining, it's the apology, it is truly the repair. And it doesn't necessarily happen in business that way. Yeah. the repair and it doesn't necessarily happen in business that way yeah and right and so but the framework is clear there's an there's a bit of an explosion and this holds up in let's call it in our intimate relationships with our partners as well there's a there's a fight there's an argument then there's a repair privately but if you happen to fight in front of the kids then we need to go back and repair so they're not left with a story if you fight in front of the kids, then we need to go back and repair. So they're not left with a story. If you fight in front of 20,000 people, or you fight more importantly, the 15 on the bench and the coaches, you've got to go back and repair, right? And you have to do that publicly. So

yeah, I think it's a really important framework. I'm imagining that you are relationship-based and developmentally minded, but I don't want to put those two phrases in your mouth. Is that true for you? Because the opposite of the opposite would be like, no, I'm, I'm outcome based. I am competitive in like, there's, there's another frame that you would say. Yeah, I think there's a mode to that. But at the same time, i've been so lucky to reach the highest peak of basketball um a number of times and at the end of the day nothing's more important than your relationships um you you have seen the classic story of the athlete with nobody he was egotistically he or she was egotistically driven now they have nothing and got horrific injuries

something took them out now they gotta it's like the classic movie line you know um my best experiences have come um from my relationships with friends um with my family with my wife um you know those are the things that i can look back on and say man that was a good time because you can play in the all-star game or you can even play in in in the in the nba championship in the finals what i remember most that i'm not now that i'm not playing anymore and you hear most of the athletes say that right is the bus rise the camaraderie the locker room you know yeah those things that that interaction with that person, because at the time when you're younger, you think it's going to last forever, right? Then you get traded,

we don't win. And now they blow the team up or I signed somewhere else. It's just different. And, you know, even till today, guys like Pat Riley, LeBron, Dwayne, Ray Allen, Shane Battier. We all still talk. I still talk to those guys. And, you know, we have relationships after the game because we have children. We have interest. We have a whole other, hopefully two thirds of a life to make great. So I think we all relate on that, um, on that stance, but you do realize after time that, you know, that's what it's about. I don't know the term relationship based, but I can see, you know, what that means and how it could apply to me. Yeah. You just mentioned five or six extraordinary performers and greats if you will yeah oh yeah great yeah what is the common

thread between you guys you know if you were to put you and them up as emblems and say you know what we all have in common is how would and i don't like to be a reductionist chris yeah i think that there's like if we can play the game for just a minute you know for sure for sure i love reducing things oh you do okay good we're good compliment for sure um i was easy the first thing that comes to mind is work ethic um putting in the work um by far they are legends in their own manner in putting the work in. More so LeBron and Ray Allen. To me, those are the two that was like, I think even, and this is just my opinion, it's not confirmed, but I think LeBron kind of saw some of the stuff Ray was doing and was like, oh, okay, I got to step.

I got to get my fitness game up a little bit, you know? But yeah, they always worked extremely hard and smart as well. But putting the time in, whether that's taking care of your body, eating the right things, watching film, working on your offhand, you know, getting free throws up. I've never seen guys work so hard and it was inspiring to me. I mean, people have told me that same thing, but they made me feel like, oh, I've got to, I've got to get better just at practicing day to day, you know, forget the game. I can't do that right there, but I will

because I'm going to make sure I get in the gym to be able to do that. And I think we definitely all share that common work ethic for sure. And what are you practicing now, Chris? Post athletics, what are you practicing? Oh, my goodness. I'm an aspiring artist, full disclosure. You know, I work in a bunch of different mediums. But, you know, what do I practice? I practice cooking food. I practice music. I'm actually working on my piano chops right now.

I'm taking classes, photography and painting and drawing. I would say those are the things that I practice pretty much daily. Yeah. Daily. And do you have that same deliberateness to your practice when you're sitting down at the piano or, you know, behind your camera? Is it the same type of deliberateness or does it feel a little different? And I know it's a different craft, but I'm talking about the mental discipline. It feels a little different. The deliberateness is meeting the quota, you know, in the practice time. So, you know, having that, I think I forgot which thing it was about the brain, you know,

the 25 minutes, 25, 30 minutes or something like that, then take a break. That's right. And then sit back down. But just making sure that I'm putting some time in, if it's five minutes, if it's an hour and five minutes, just making sure that I, at some point in the day, think about it, see it, touch it, feel it, you know, and just put that time into it. And then on those days where I can really dive in, really dive in, but more so I'm kind of, I like to take, that's why I was telling you, I like to reduce.

I like to break things down to a simplest form and then learn the fundamentals. And then I feel, you know, kind of like the 80-20 rule. So I'm really technically, I'm very aware of the 20% to learn. So I'm like, okay, cool. Let me just learn this 20% and I, you know, I can, you I can really lock in and focus on that. And then we're good to go. And we'll see what the outcome is. Would you consider yourself a creative?

Oh, 100%. Even when I was playing basketball, I was creating so you were yeah because i think most most people are incredibly creative but we don't know how because we think of leonardo da vinci as creative you know and like we don't know how to fare up against somebody like that but to solve problems requires some creativity and so you are solving problems all the time on practice and in games and so i i think the extraordinaries tend to express themselves in different ways and you're really good with language would you would you use were you verbal or were you more introverted in the way that you would express yourself? I was very quiet coming into my Toronto days and rightfully so. I was 19 year old rookie coming from that part, playing with Vince Carter for a year and a half,

and then kind of pretty much going down to the dog house of the NBA and having to build ourself back up. And in that I had coaches and players and leaders that would push me to be more vocal. There was nothing I couldn't, they would not let me settle or run from anything. It's like, no, you have to push these guys. You have to do it. There wasn't any wiggle room to say,

oh, well coach, you should, no, no, no, no, no, you do it. And I, you know, I'm so appreciative for those lessons because, you know, they were necessary. You do, there is a vocal aspect to being a leader. You don't have to stand up on a chair and give them a win-win for the gipper every game, but you do want the ears when you speak. You want what you have, when you have something to say, you want it to be powerful and you want it to be heard. And so I always, I always kind of took that with me.

So I kind of tried to mix both, but, you know, as I became older, as I, as my confidence settled, I began to be more outgoing, more boisterous, whether I was in the locker room or socially, and kind of just having fun with my immediate circle and the people that I'm around. Now, I wouldn't get on the bullhorn and say, hey, yo, Toronto, what's happening? You know, I wouldn't go that far. But if you were at dinner with me, you know, we would have a good time. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth.

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I was always drawing. Not so much looking at paintings and stuff, but just how to draw better. That was fascinating. The Internet was fascinating. I think it kind of started coming around, therefore computers and technology and all of those things. So I really dove into that very, very early in the mid 90s. And getting better at basketball and video games, I can say video games to very, very into video games. I can say video games too. Very, very into video games. Not designing or anything, but I wanted to, I got into graphic design. I wanted to be a graphic designer at one point in time. I found out like how to bootleg Photoshop and that went around.

So we always had a computer at home at the time. And so just really during those times, that's kind of, yeah, that's just kind of, yeah, that was the world. That was the world, man. That's what I was interested in. And movies, I can say movies for sure. Film has always been a huge influence in what I've done and really just being a personality through that I saw Eddie Murphy and Jim Carrey and Stuart Scott on SportsCenter and Scott Van Pelt all those classic guys just watching them on Saturday Night Live and then on SportsCenter I just those were that that's how my head was it was like a SN, Mad TV with SportsCenter mix with Jim Carrey somewhere in there,

just being characters just all day, every day. I just, yeah, I knew my interest. I knew what I liked. And I really didn't think anything of it. I just kind of did them as hobbies because they were fun. And then looking back, was there ever any real question if you were going to pursue basketball full

time where they're competing, were these other interests competing for your attention or was it like, no, no, no, it's basketball. And then these other things are cool too. It was always basketball and those other things were cool. I would say right up. I always drew, I drew, I kind of think it probably fell off around middle school, high school, definitely high school is when I, you know, I wouldn't draw as much. Uh, but yeah, I, all those things took a backseat to basketball. I mean, it was always basketball from the moment,

from the moment I took it in to saying, okay, yeah, I never really, I tell people all that the time they say, Hey, what would you do if you want, if you didn't play basketball, what else did you want to do? I could tell you other things that I like, but there was nothing else. I did other things, but basketball and nothing else. Okay. So like all great explorers and yours being an explorer of potential, were you trying to unlock something or were you trying to get recognized and paid? It sounds like you said earlier you know be my best but earlier it was be the best so i'm just trying to get an original framework for you like what were you trying to unlock the potential of basketball you know of course hindsight is 2020 right but i was trying to unlock the potential of basketball at At the time, I knew that my parents paying for

college was not an option. They told me, my father told me. And even during those times, and even before, the content that I was taking in was all about basketball. It was college or high school athletes getting college scholarships and then going on to be great. So it was always, always, always about unlocking my potential, looking back on it. But, you know, it starts with being the best. Michael Jordan, that was the influence. I mean, when I started speaking fluent basketball, my first words were Michael Jordan, you know, and just seeing the run and his dominance that was built into my brain. And then we got Kobe Bryant, you know, so these are my heroes. These are the guys that

my generation want to emulate. And for me, yeah, it was about being the best but it was also about just the love of basketball I loved basketball I couldn't see myself doing anything else so although I did have aspirations of making the NBA it was never about money I joke with people all the time I didn't even know what car to buy people were coming to me saying yo what car do you want I don't even know what car to buy. People were coming to me saying, yo, what car do you want? I don't want to get anything too expensive. People looked at me crazy. You know what I mean? It's just I just wanted to be a basketball player. I wanted to compete. I saw myself more as the guy in the jersey and warm ups playing the game. That's how I saw it, as opposed to the guy in the jersey and warmups playing the game, that's how I saw it as opposed to the guy in the car with the stuff. You know, I never even thought about those things. I,

I wanted the glory on the court. I wanted to hit the game winning shot. I wanted to be on the game winning team and come through and win the championship. Those were the moments that I wanted as opposed to the being aware of the materialistic things, which they're there and they're cool. Don't get me wrong. But that was never my intention. So let's stay here for a minute. When you double click underneath of that, did you want that experience because it's like, I matter, look what I was able to do. Or did you want that experience for, oh my gosh, it is possible to have poise and to be able to deliver when time's running out.

It was more so looking, look what I can do, challenging myself to get the best, you know, out of myself, especially when people will tell you that it's not possible. That is a reality that we all have to face. Not everybody is going to tell you that it is attainable. Kind of like you were talking about the too skinny thing. That was the thing. Oh, you frail, you're frail, you're frail. I hated that word, but, you know, just kind of going back at those during those times and not letting that affect my work ethic or my psyche or my belief,

you know, you have to hold on to that image. I hear, I hear that, but Oh, you just answered it. I stepped on it. You have to hold on to that image of what the future brilliance looks like. Yeah. I mean, it was always about the work for me. It was always about, um, one of the things that my, my habit was always being in the gym. I had a good friend of mine. He told me, retold me about how I was always in the gym. He come back and I'd be there at night. I, you know, like, I didn't even know anybody was here. I'm coming back to get my keys and you're in the gym. Golly. And I was probably like 15 years old, 16 years old. It was just it was just a hunger in me to get the best out of myself as a basketball player. I love seeing myself excel and my team excel, too.

The more work that I started putting in in the more the more robust the product became you know and and i started hey i started getting attention let me be frank with you and i i'm like oh okay you know sports it's like yeah you're good it happens very quickly if you're in that um status and i started to see it more and more so I started going harder I want to get to success but I want to stay here like with the the too frail thing can you go back to a time when you know like tell me like how you how you dealt with it when someone said hey man you're too frail imagine a coach or scout or somebody of quote unquote influence when they would say that, like, can you go back to that, those moments and like, how did you filter it

and make sense of it? It was more so, uh, from the peers. Um, the coaches, my coaches were always supportive because I would always come back to the gym. I always wanted to play. I was always enthusiastic. So, like, yo, this kid right here is crazy. But it was more so, yeah, just, you know, peer pressure, you know, that whole teenage stuff that goes on. That's pretty much what that was. And it was always kind of a thing like, ah, it was kind of like a knock. But you have to be tough. I mean, playing ball in Dallas and South Dallas and Hutchins, Texas,

you had to be tough. You had to play the game aggressively. Or, you know, people are probably going to take advantage of you and, you know, probably just nudge you and see what you're made of. And you have to be tough and, you know, get people off you. It's just that's just the nature of South Dallas and where we're from. You know, so that was always instilled in me. So it just really rolled off me and never really affected me.

I didn't like it. It made me upset. But like I say, it didn't matter because I was always at practice I was always at the gym they're not at the games anyway you're giving me an interpretation of what you think if we were on this court you wouldn't be telling me that you know so and you know really just to be honest um it always put me not in an underdog position but always feeling like i was overlooked you know really for my whole career and that looking back at it now i wasn't overlooked it's like nah yeah you want hey keep keep that drive going keep that fire lit oh look you created that so you got

you got quote unquote tried you know by people and and they would try to knock you down but then you of course you would put it through a filter which which is like, first of all, you wouldn't be saying this if we're on the hardwood. You'd see that I'm not too frail for anything, you know? Yeah. And I'm not scared of you. And then, yeah. And then, then you use it a bit of a chip, chip on the shoulder or fire in the belly. How would you think about like that? I'm going to work, you know, and maybe this is my thing. I don't want to pick apart language. I never really liked the term chip on my shoulder, chip on your shoulder. I guess the wrong people, you know, people that weren't very successful use that term a lot early in my career,

but yeah, just that fire in the belly, just always wanting to be better you don't have to to have a chip on your shoulder to feel like you have to go out there and and play the game you love like I felt the chip on the shoulders like oh you know man you got to be a certain way you got to carry yourself a certain way fire is like hey man nice to meet you let's play this game I'm gonna still knock you on your butt you know and and if you knock me on my butt, Oh, that's a good one. All right, let's play. There's a certain way that you play the game in my belief. And passion was always a part of it. I love that. And I want to know where you got the phrasing of right attitude, right commitment, right flow with a team.

Because I hear Buddhism in there. I read quite a few things, meditation, Tao, Buddha, those spiritual subjects, trying to find that flow, right? Because there is a flow to the game. You know, there is some things that I had to get into to help me understand more of the things that are happening out here and what we're preparing for, especially at the elite level. And especially when it was out of my hands, meaning that I didn't have the ball in my hand 75% of the time. I had to find a way to fit in the flow, you know, without the ball. And that's a huge, huge part of the game. Most of the guys on the court don't have the ball, but everybody wants it, right?

And you think you're dictating the game because you have the possession. And I had to learn that that's not necessarily true. And I had to learn these principles of, of course, letting the things come to you, but it's a dance. You know, we're gonna have fire. We're gonna be physical. We're gonna work hard, but in the flow of this game, you still have to carry out the game plan.

You have to execute the things that you talked about as a team. You know, you have to be there and communicate, you know, all these principles and all these things are happening at once. So I had to try to find that flow state, you know, and just try to stay there because it comes at you very quickly. You know, I was going to go down the path about your career ending injury that you had. And I want to understand like how you dealt with it. I think it's evident how you dealt with it. I'm not saying it was easy by any respects, but I can hear your framework.

It's like you got a big picture approach. Your identity is not wrapped in just to what you do, but the man that you're becoming. And you've got an incredible internal set of skills to be able to pivot, to be agile and to go to the next, whatever the next opportunity is. And so I don't think that that's confusing, but I guess for me, like, was that really hard for you? Was the retirement phase hard? Yeah. Extremely hard. Um, I played my last game when I was 31 years old. Right. Um, I thought that I'm 37 now. I easily thought I would be playing now and, um, you know, maybe in the twilight phase right now, maybe one more year. But that's how I saw it going. And at the time, yeah, it was extremely difficult to handle. But I found those things

like writing, music, to put my time into, spending time with my family, getting into that, being a father. It's a lot of things you have to do. Getting into that stuff. Those are the things that kind of helped me exercise those demons of not playing anymore because I didn't know how much time I was giving to the game. My life was so regimented. We do this, we do this, we're playing on Christmas, hopefully the playoffs,

everything revolved around that world. And sure, I've been lucky to have a couple of other things that I'm interested in, but that doesn't mean that you do them at a professional level, right? Or you, you know, open up some sort of business around that idea that doesn't necessarily happen like that that and i just it was extremely difficult i want people to understand that uh i know i'm all cool now and very zen now but yeah it was it was very very tough trying times but leaning on those things, keeping that big picture focus intact. And that was the ultimate challenge, to be honest with you.

It's like, okay, yeah, you be talking all this stuff. Yeah, let's really talk about teamwork. Let's really talk about putting the work in. Let's really talk about visualizing your goal. And yeah, that was, basketball was great, but that was easy. Yeah. Let's do this now. And then I had to build back up from where I was as far as interest or concern. I had to ask myself, what do I love doing? What do I do? And I had to eventually get to the point where we are now. And I still have way more work to do. I'm just not getting to the

point now where it's like, okay, I know what practice is. Let's get to practicing, you know, and I'm so fortunate to have a book and be an author and all those things. But that process took three years. And, you know, now that that's done, there's a next evolution, hopefully, and there's always more work to be done. So I always, I found myself having that challenge of figuring out how to live. And that's a challenge I think we all kind of can really, really agree that we all have. You have to find your way, right? Chris, I want to say thank you for sharing. i want to say thank you for your time um i feel like i could i could sit with you for hours and keep learning so yeah we could do this all day man yeah so i want to say thank you and you know i don't think i have clarity i know you do imagery

it sounds like you use your mind to to create images that are compelling to you and it sounds like you've got goals and you've got a process that you, you write some stuff down. Do you journal? Do you meditate? Yeah. Do you journal and meditate? So that's how kind of how the book happened. It started for me journaling every day, which that was handwritten. I've kind of pretty much moved into a point. I love, I love drawing too. I've reconnected immensely back with that since I haven't played anymore. So I have like a sketchbook

slash journal slash calendar thing, just something that I can write on with no lines. That's pretty much like a good wheelhouse for me. I keep that everywhere. And, you know, I do meditate. I know that's like a huge term and it varies from person to person. I always start off my mornings, the first 30 minutes, I give me a coffee. I sit down on my seat outside, probably right outside my office or my garage. And I just sit there and kind of just think about my day, what I'm going to do today, my schedule, what I'm going to go over and just have that moment of peace. And I try to, you know, I try to get to it again in the evening. But, yeah, I do. I do try to take that moment of just not doing anything. A lot of people, you know, think you

have to sit there. It's like, damn, which finger do I hit? I'm not too much like that. I just, I'll be the old guy in the rocking chair, hopefully on the porch, just sitting there, you know what I mean? And that'll be my meditation. Brilliant. Okay. I mean, I'm wishing you all the success. I wish there was a project or something fun we could do. I'm going to root from the sidelines and drive people to chrisbosch.com for your book. And hopefully you're doing keynotes and you're sharing your pearls of wisdom inside of organizations and folks that want you know, want to understand transformation. They want to understand the practices of becoming one's best. And so. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

Okay. Awesome. Chris, is there anything, you know, that you want to make sure that we tap into that? I just, your genius is on full display. And so I want to make sure that we do justice as well. Oh, no, it's good. I will add that music is a form of meditation, I feel as well. And that kind of gets me in that state. Very, very much so. But yeah, I mean, just finding those things. And, and, you know, I love the fact that people want to get better. I love the fact that people want to get the best out of

themselves. One of the things that I would entice people to do is not study too much. There is the part of it, but get out there and do it. Let's act. That's kind of the mode that I'm in right now. When you learn that knowledge, apply it. Use it. If you're a beginner and you're a painter or sculptor, make it. Sure, you're not going to be Picasso or Da Vinci right away, but if you stay at it, stay with it, you'll be the best form of yourself. And nothing comes without going through that beginner phase. I've learned to embrace it. I've learned to accept it. The frustration, the, you know what I mean? Like, just like, ah, man.

And I might be ranting, but it's so interesting. I'll ask people, they might see a drawing or something. I'll do this. Oh, wow, you can draw. You know, I tell people, I encourage people. You can draw too. The first thing everybody says is, no, I cannot. oh wow you can draw you know i tell people i encourage people you can draw too the first thing everybody says is no i cannot i said okay don't say that yo draw a circle okay you can draw

you know draw a house with you in front of it what happened to the stick figures with the house man we got we all start from somewhere but you know i i want to entice people to put it into action. Let's get started. Do it. And, you know, refine that work as you go along. But always believe, hold that visualization in your head of what you want, what you want to create, and the person that you want to be. And you keep working toward that every day, fall in love with the work you're doing. I think, you know, that could help, help tremendously with people. And I'm talking to myself when I'm telling you guys this, I, I always say things that I want to embody as well. So, you know, happy creating. Oh, that is awesome. And, you know, uh, give a little plug for daddy Jack records, your record label, and, um, maybe you're going to do some artwork on some of these,

some of your albums that you're going to produce. Oh yeah. We'll, we'll have some good times, man. We have some good times. We were, we have some things in the works. Uh, okay. People love music, you know, please follow. So we'll, we'll be out there. Are there any books that, um, you'd hope that I would read that have been influential to you? Grit by Angela Duckworth. You've read probably Ryan's books, of course. Ryan Holiday, yeah. Have you read Conspiracy?

It has nothing to do with it. It's just entertaining. Have you read Conspiracy? It has nothing to do with it. It's just entertaining. Have you read that one? No, is it good? Woo! You got to read that one. Okay, Conspiracy. You got to read that one.

That has, you know, it's just a hell of a story. Okay, okay. And there's the, you know, Ryan, he's going to put the things in there too, but just the story. Yeah. I don't want to hype it up too much, but yeah, I read that one in a week. He gave it to me and I flew through it. It was amazing. Yeah. He's well, he's a good writer. Yeah. He's a great guy. He's that guy's awesome. Becoming Kareem by Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. Oh, I haven't read that. Yeah.

Yeah. Excellent. Excellent author. Excellent writer. He's been writing for decades. One of the greatest of all time, if not the greatest of all time. Yeah, that is what is coming on the top of my head right now. Yeah, I think those ones. I'm reading the narration of Frederick Douglass. I think that's important for people to read. It is harsh, but it's necessary. I think, you know, you gotta know the past and know where you're going. And, you know, in the state of the country that we're in right now,

we have to understand what this country was founded on, when, where we have come from to get to where we are today in hopes that we understand a little more to kind of help a little more right and although it is um it could be a tearjerker to some people it is it's thin very thin but it's uh some poignant writing and the fact that he became who he became um it's incredible okay good there we go yeah and then slight shift here are you do you have are you a boat person by any chance and if not what would you name your boat am i i'm not so much a boat i love boats but i can't say that i'm a captain or anything like that

oh man what would i make come on what would you name it yeah shoot uh some corny like good time something you see in the keys so you see in the florida keys you know to be like good times yeah original buddy you know what i mean like you know some corny but they'll get it you know i love it i appreciate corniness you know that's so good that's what my kids tell me now they say oh dad joke that was lame like oh man you guys are doing it to me already huh you used to love that one all right chris wishing you the flat out best chrisbosh.com and uh you know we're going to promote in all the right places you know your book and your website and your label and all the good stuff. Thanks a lot, man.

I appreciate you. Appreciate you. All right, man. Take it easy. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community.

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