Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Finding the Courage to Try Again | Marathon Record Holder, Keira D'Amato

Episode Date: June 8, 2022

This week’s conversation is with Keira D’Amato, a full-time realtor, mother of two, and one of the most elite female long-distance runners in the United States. Keira’s running career took off in college where she became a four-time All-American Track athlete at American University. However, just a couple years after graduating, she underwent a major ankle surgery which put a quick - and heartbreaking - end to her post-collegiate running career. Eight years later, Keira started chasing down some “unfinished business” and went on to set the American Women’s Record in the Marathon (2:19:12), the World Record in the Women’s Only 10 Mile Run (51:23), and was selected to Team USA for the World Half Marathon Championships in 2020 & 2022... all while juggling the responsibilities of raising two kids and a career as a full-time realtor. Keira is epic and this conversation is about so much more than her career as an athlete – it’s about pain, purpose, re-discovery, and having the courage to go for that thing you've always wanted… even when it seems like it’s too late._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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or welcome to the Finding Mastery Podcast. I'm Michael Gervais. And by trade and training, I'm a sport and performance psychologist. The whole idea behind this conversation, behind this podcast is to learn from people who are challenging the edges and the reaches of the human experience in business, in sport, in science, in life. We pull back the curtain to explore how they have committed to mastering both their craft and their minds in an effort to express their potential. Finding Mastery is brought to you by

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hit your daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash finding mastery. This week's conversation is with Kiera D'Amato, a full-time realtor, mother of two, and one of the most elite female long distance runners in the United States. Kiera's running career took off in college where she became a four-time All-American track athlete at American University. However, just a couple years after graduating, she underwent a major ankle surgery. And for athletes going under these types of surgeries, sometimes that feels like the

rug just gets pulled right underneath you. And so it can be heartbreaking. It's definitely challenging. And it ended her post-collegiate running career. Imagine that. You've worked that hard for so many years. You're at the top of your game. And then bang, all of a sudden you screw up your ankle and it was kind of over.

So eight years later, Kara started chasing down some unfinished business. And she went on to set the American woman's record in the marathon at two hours, 19 minutes and 12 seconds. It's flying. And then the world record in women's only 10 mile run. And that was at 51 minutes low. And she was then selected to team USA for the world half marathon championship in 2020. And then 2022, again, she did all this while

juggling all of the massive responsibilities that come with raising two kids and then working a career as a full-time realtor. Kara is epic. And so is this conversation. I loved every part of it. It represents that we are so much more than what we do. However, the doing, whatever that might be for you, whether it's in business or parenting or whatever it might be, the arts or sport, it is a vehicle it is a way to understand to work a craft to understand what you are capable of so really for the way that i look at this is mastery of self through craft and it doesn't have to be this thing that you know this unfinished business but for many of us we do have that We do have something that sits underneath the surface that is scratching for us to go do or try again.

So this conversation, it's about pain and working with it and purpose. It's about discovery. And then maybe underneath the whole thing is having the courage to go for that thing that you've always wanted to better understand, whatever that might be, even when it seems too late. And with that, let's jump right into this week's conversation with Kiera D'Amato. Kiera, how are you? I am through the roof. This is a dream come true for me. I've been listening to your podcast for years. And for me, it was like, what do I need to do to talk to Dr. Mike? Set an American record? All right, done. And I just

started training my butt off. And it was a long time. Oh, God, that is so fun. Oh, that is... And I know we're having fun with it, but what a treat for us to connect in this forum, me watching you and not knowing that you're listening for a long time and watching you do something that has been done for a long time. And so let's start with that record just for a minute. Just announce the record. It's really cool. So I set in January of this year, 2022, I set the American record for the women's marathon by running two 1912. Um, that's about five 18 paced for the 26.2 miles. So I beat the record by about 24 seconds. It was held by Dina Castor for almost 20 years now. 2-19-12. I mean, you're flying. So let's do some parallels. By the way, a 20-year record,

broken, legit. In running, it seems like that should have, and I don't use that word, I barely use that word, that it should have been broken a long time ago, like multiple times because of the science of the sport. So before we get into ways to understand just how fast that is, why was that record standing for so long? I have no idea. And actually, I've spoken with Dina Castor and she has no idea either. Um, I think there are another women who have attempted in the past, you know, 15, 20 years that had a legitimate shot, but for whatever reason, I always tell people like the marathon, a lot can happen in 26.2 miles, you know? So even the weather, if the weather's not, you know, good enough for that day, that

can really throw a performance off. So I have no idea. And I also have no idea why it was me because I've taken a very untraditional path to get here. I, you know, I competed in high school and college and a little bit post-collegiately, but then I took like an eight year break. I call it my halftime show, a little bit of elaborate halftime show. And then I came back with a very new perspective and a very different attitude than I had in my like round one. So I don't know. It's, there's a big,

I have no idea how to answer that question. Okay. So this is like a great segue to a quote that really captured my attention. It's a quote of yours. And the reason it captured my attention is because you capture what I think sits right underneath all of us. And it's this bell that's wanting to be rung and most people don't ring it. And there's a quiet little haunt about what if, and you rang it. So here's the quote, and I'd love you to take us somewhere with what sits underneath of this idea for you. But you said, I think the thing that I'm most proud of is that I had the courage to try again. I had the courage to go see what if. For a decade of my life, I sat there just a fan of running, watching the Olympic trials or the Olympics

or the Boston Marathon or New York City Marathon or whatever it was, just a fan. But I'd always have this little what if. I know everyone has that little what if, and it's not necessarily running. It could be whatever it is. But just having the courage to find out what if, I think that that's something that really resonates. And so I want to just give some context before you respond. What if is a powerful question. And it seems like that is a underlying philosophy that has been material for you. But what if has an underlying mechanism for both anxiety and hope?

And so that same thing can cut two different ways. So I want to understand how you work with it, like how that idea has played forward in your life and how you make sense of that idea on a regular basis. So take us wherever you will from that quote. Yeah, I definitely, I got the chills and all the feels just hearing you read that back because running was my everything. I went to college to run, I competed afterwards, and then I was pushed away out of the sport, kind of not really on my own by my own choice.

And so, like you said, I just sat there wondering what if, and I thought I would never do it again. So I said goodbye to all those goals. I mourned those goals. I was so confident that I would hit these goals and then I was wrong. And that was, that was the toughest thing to understand. Like, how was I so wrong? Like, I really thought I could have done this or I could have done that. And I fell short of those goals. What do you mean you got pushed out? So, um, I had an ankle injury that, um, created perpetual stress fracture in my foot. And at the time my insurance didn't cover it. Um, it was preexisting conditions era. And because I had a twisted ankle in high school, they wouldn't do it. So the surgery was, I was like, well, this is everything

to me. This is my livelihood. I should, I'll just pay out of pocket. And they gave me the bill. And I was like, well, I don't have that money. So I was kind of forced to retire and pushed out. How old were you? I think I was like 24, maybe. So that's the way you framed it. You framed it, pushed out. How old were you? I think I was like 24 maybe. So that's the way you framed it. You framed it pushed out as opposed to I didn't have the resources, the means to stay in. So it was like you were in, but being pushed out is very different than like I couldn't stay with the moving train. So when you hear me say that to you, where do you go? I think, I think you're absolutely right. I think that also it was

really stressful to think about, you know, well, I could get alone or I could do this. Like there were, I could have kept fighting for it, I think, but I think I was tired of fighting and I feel like I gave up a little bit. Um, and I also, at the time, like this is, I'm not a very reflective person, but through this American record, I've been asked a lot of different questions. So I've kind of learned about my process and I was training on a team with, um, some really elite and high-performing athletes that I was very different from. Um, they were very meticulous. They were very serious. They worked. They were the first ones there. And the last one to leave, I roll up and I'm telling jokes and I'm having a good time. And some days, you know, when I'm not feeling great, like I'm like, well, two miles for a cool down is okay.

Instead of three, you know, so I was, I was so different from them that I thought I would never be successful too. So I kind of, in a way I felt pushed out, but then I was also kind of okay with it to see like what else there is to become financially stable, to kind of get a career. So it's kind of, it's kind of a weird, it was a weird time for sure. What if I added this is that I didn't quite fit in. And one of the ways that helps us see our future is when we calibrate that against people like us, there's some proximity in the people around us.

We go, oh, I see this person is able to experience A, B, and C. I find A, B, and C to be meaningful or valuable. And I'm kind of like that person. Or I think that what I have to offer is actually exponentially better than this person. So I might get A1, B2, you know, like I might even get more. And so there's this proximity thing that takes place as a approximation of potential. And sometimes we need, quote unquote, the adults in the room to give us that. Sometimes we make those comparisons, which is either facilitates our hope or debilitates our hope if we're on the other side of it, which is like self-doubt and self-critique. The other piece is that if you couldn't quite see yourself in it,

that in and of itself is really stressful. And if the outcome didn't matter enough, why stay? And so which part of that do you hook onto? A couple different parts. And I think for seeing their path to success, that was not me. That's not how I work. And that's not how I function. And that was stressful. You're absolutely right on that. But then also I'd never seen anyone behave like me in an elite stage. So I thought that maybe that didn't work. And I didn't know that my path could also get me there too, which I think that's been the most validating thing of this process is this second round I've leaned into what excites me. And I've been doing it my way and I've been validated with achieving more than I could

ever imagine. But I think also I had so much pressure and I felt the pressure to succeed. And I was so focused on the outcome then if I ran fast, you were focused on the outcome. Absolutely. If I ran fast, then I'd get a sponsorship or if I ran fast, then I can win nationals. If I ran fast and I just had all, I was so focused on where I was going and what that was, that that was so much pressure that it just didn't, I don't know, I kind of, I didn't handle it correctly. And this time it's totally backwards. I'm not focused on outcome. I'm focused on the process and what can I do every day, every week, every month to improve, to like, to get better. And I don't necessarily, I have a lot of long-term goals, but it's more about kind of that day-to-day and kind of having fun with it and leaning into what excites

me that I think has really freed me from that pressure. I mean, that is the recipe and it's not as easy as it sounds in this conversation because there are so many external attractive external things that we think that are really important and that we would like to have and there's also the fear of not getting those that we're we're not going to be able to stay in it or if we what are people going to think about us or boy i've really chipped in i've got a lot on the table for this bet that i'm making and so those it's like those externals at some level need to happen. Some of them are nice to have. And sometimes we have this fear of what if they don't happen? And it sounds so simple to say, okay, outcomes, I can't control them. Let me double down on what I can master,

which is the process of getting better. And then, so you've done that first intellectual work. How do you materially do that work? Like what do you do on a Monday morning or on a beginning of a month or whatever? Like how do you structure the absorption in the process? Yeah. And I think also kind of to add on to something we were just talking about is I've already tried and I've, I failed, I came up short in my first round. So this time I'm not afraid of failing because I've already failed before. And it's really not that bad. I've learned and I grew and I moved on. And so this time I feel so free of that, that maybe it will work out. Maybe it won't, but if it does, then wow.

Awesome. And if it doesn't work out, well, I've been there before and I'm okay. It's that's fine. But I think, you know, as far as structuring kind of the day to day, it's like, you know, my coach and I, we come up with a plan and we figure out like what the goals are for that week. And we have like routine in our schedule. And then he gives me a lot of leeway for kind of

to shift things around. And also I'm a mother. So there's just a lot of, I don't know, variables in my life too. So I have a very like flexible fluid training plan now, which has really helped. Does your philosophy and your approach match your coaches? Is there harmony and synergy between those two? Absolutely. And I think it, cause he was my coach before. And then, you know, I took my eight year halftime show and like, we got the band back together. And originally, like, I think he's always seen this potential in me before I've even seen it. But originally when we put running back in my life, it was for, you know, to lose weight and then it was to have fun and then it was connect with the community. And so my why has changed in this round. And I think he's always kind of been my North star pointing me towards

like something, you know, like happened in January, whereas for me it's taken me a little bit longer, at least confidence wise to get to get there. So he saw some magic. He saw some unrefined coal that was like, okay, listen, if we just get it together, there's a diamond in there. And did you have, if he could really see it, could you see it a little bit? Or was it just, it was like, I just want to lose weight or I want to do, or that's now, or before it was, no, I want to win medals. Did you think that you had a thing in you? I knew I had something. I didn't know it was this though.

So that has been, and that's why like in that quote, you read at the beginning that I'm so thankful that I had the courage to try, cause I knew there was more, but I had no idea how much. And, and it's kind of comes back to that. What if, because every time I make it to that step, you know, like, let's see if I can run a marathon without walking. And then I did, well, what if I can run faster, you know? and then, and then what if I can qualify for the Olympic trials? What if I could be top 10 at the Olympic trials? And then I finally got down to a point where I made it to the top 10 list for women marathon ever. I was, I think seventh or eighth on that all time list. And there was 50% of me that was like, I can't believe I'm associated with

these other nine names. And then the other 50% was like seventh. That's not good enough. We got to be sixth, fifth, fourth. So it's been such a weird dichotomy that I don't know that I've been, I don't even know if it's struggling. I think it's, it's really helped me and it's kept the pressure off, you know, and it's kept it really fun for me. But yeah, I just, yeah, that what if. That what if you hit two things, the what if, because it's so clear when you say it, like, well, what if I could make that? And then that's exciting. It gives fuel because the other side of it, like we mentioned earlier is like, well, what if I don't make the top 10? What if I sprain my ankle today? What if I run out of money on training?

What if my sponsor, I let them down? What if fill in the blanks, fill in the blanks? What if this is all for nothing and I'm spending too much time away from the family? And so all of those what ifs lead you, direct you, me, all of us, lead us to anxiety when we ruminate and excess over them. And I love that you are flipping it on its head and you're saying, no, no, no, no. This is exciting. What if?

What if I was able to crack top 10? And then what do you do with that statement? What if? I know what the flip side of that coin is for the anxiety. Like what if I don't? Yeah, because I because I failed already. And I felt like in Houston at the Chevron Houston Marathon, when I set the record, I have failed and come up short so many times that I just knew on that, like I figured out

every way to fail and I've learned all those lessons. So I just what was left is how to succeed, I feel like. And for me, the what if, I know if I don't try, I know the answer to that what if. So the flip side to that coin, like you said, is very exciting to me because this is all new, you know, and this is all, yeah, it's just really exciting. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentous. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits,

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Just head to FelixGray.com and use the code FINDINGMASTERY20 at checkout. Again, that's Felix Gray. You spell it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com and use the code FindingMastery20 at FelixGray.com for 20% off. What does failure mean to you? Coming up short of a goal. Okay. So it's pretty simple. So if you put it out there and you go for it and you don't reach the goal, maybe you, maybe it was too big of a goal.

Maybe, um, you got sick that day or weather was funky or whatever, right. That, that is failure. Yeah. But I also, it's funny because for me, a race is just one, like a dipstick of a point, uh, just, um, I don't know. It's just one way to tell your fitness for like, so I've gone into races and I've come up short of my goal and I've walked away being like, well, I didn't show it in that race, but I know where I know I'm better than that.

So I'm real quickly to write off, to learn what I need to learn and move forward with that. So the first time I think I ran two 34, I thought I was in shape to run two 30. My time said two 34, but I walked away from that race thinking I was a two 30 marathoner. I know the work was there. I'm a two 30 marathoner. So the next time I went to race, I was running for two 26. I ran two 34 again, but I knew I was a two 26 marathoner. And I mean, the conditions were crazy. It was a hilly course, but you know, and so the next time I went up to run two 22 and I ran two 22, and that was an easy

jump going from a two 26 to a two 22, but everyone was freaking out that a two 34 marathoner went to a two 22. So I haven't let races define me, which I think has really helped. And I don't know if it's just a crazy ego or what it is, just a weird confidence, but I've been able to, even when I fail, move forward like I succeeded that day. Okay. Two things here that I hear. One is the dipstick idea, which is, listen, these are bits of information that are coming in and no bit of information can, can in its, it's not enough information to entirely define my career, my potential, my whatever. It's, it's a measuring stick right now, but it's not the only bit of data. I love that because the way you laddered it to the second part, which is, you called it like big confidence or big ego. I think you used one of those words. But it's a sense of identity, a wholeness, which is this one aspect of me is not all of me. And all of me is actually quite complicated and it's it's larger than my physical form it's

larger than what you know these these three numbers mean it's larger even than me as a as a mom and as a as a wife and like it's it's bigger than that and so i'm going to embrace the mystery of how complicated wonderful my life and life's are. And this is a really fun way to do it, which is taking data as I go to see if I can get better at something that I love. What do you think? Spot on. Absolutely.

That's exactly, that's exactly how I feel. Okay. So with that context, let's go back to one more time. Why did you leave? I feel like I didn't have what it took. And I also, at the time running was not enough for me, you know, like every, I was cure the runner my whole life and my whole life. Like it was, I don't know, it was just a runner and it took me leaving running to realize it's just running and Kira is so much more than that. And I think with that perspective, I'm able to sit here as the American record holder

because I've learned how that Kira is so much more than that, which is, um, was really fun. It was a weird, it was a weird phase of my life, but it was, uh, it was really fun to see what else Kira is. Where did you just go at the beginning part of that, that narrative? Like what just happened in your voice? Like, where did you just go? Um, I think to like all, I don't know, just the self-discovery of all this. And I think that, you know, just my whole life, I was the runner, like even in soccer, I was the runner, you know, and I didn't even pick. What's the emotion that you're working from when you're talking about this narrow view

of yourself? I'm more than that. You know, I think that's what, and, but it defines me and it's my passion and I define myself with that. But, but yeah, I think I'm, I'm more than that. And then when you think about your potential, because that's essentially what ringing the bell is, is like, what if there's more? And when you think about what is possible in your life and we can do running and otherwise, are you able to put words to that?

I think anything is possible. And I think for anyone, anything is possible. And I think everyone's dealt different cards and has different restraints and different strengths, but I really, I don't know. I really truly believe anything is possible. What about folks that are listening to this right now and they're like, it's too late. I know I have more in me, but just too much time has gone by. It's just passed me by. That art, that music, that entrepreneur idea, that travel, whatever it might be. And they're just like, yeah, that phase was with a bit of melancholy. That's just, that's just past. Yeah. I think I'm living proof that it hasn't, you know, I'm in a sport where I'm competing

against women that I could probably be their mom, you know, like I'm, I'm on definitely on the older side, but like, I've, I don't know. And I don't, I didn't come back thinking I was going to be where I am. Like I came back to be my best version of myself. I had no idea I would, I could be the best version of myself ever, but to me, it took erasing all of my record boards and everything. I've all of my previous goals and just going headfirst into it to discover like what's left. So I think that for me, that felt like an excuse for a while when I wasn't chasing my potential and running, because it's always been with me. So I guess hearing you say that it feels like a little bit of an excuse and we're all so busy and we're all tired from our jobs and everything else going in our life.

So it almost feels like a little bit of an excuse to say that that time has passed because I don't know, I think there's ways to find enjoyment or to be able to pursue those loves even, you know, with a busy work schedule or busy family schedule. Well, there's, there are some things that have passed, like, um, the professional surf tour has passed by me, I mean, for me for a long time. So there are some things that the window is missed, like there's a sensitive window. And it is really unique, I think, that as an older athlete, that you were able to keep that window was still open for you. I mean, that is remarkable. When you think about the beginnings of you wanting to ring that bell, do you remember where you were,

what you were thinking about when you said, you know what? I'm going to go run again. Do you remember that? Yeah, I do. And it's funny because I remember being pregnant with my second child in 2016. And one of my girlfriends I went with in high school, we were sitting on a dock and she said, Kira, do you think you'll ever run again? And I said, no, no, I'm a mom. I'm a realtor. Like, no, I'm never going to run again. Like, and I honestly felt I was never going to run again. And then like, it just started as, you know, like I said, losing weight. And then my husband is in the military.

He was in the air national guard. So he, by the time my, I don't know, my daughter was two, he was gone for about a year of that. So I was at home with two kids under two and I clung to running for mental health reasons. Like I was very, that was a really tough time in my life. I was really lonely and I just, I put running in my life then because I needed it for myself. When you bring that back up, it sounds like depression, loneliness, and you needed something. Do you reconnect emotionally when you're talking about it to that time? Or does that feel like a distance long ago? No, I can reconnect. That was, that was pretty hard. That was really hard. And my husband

and I can joke about it now that like, if we hadn't gone through that, like I may not be sitting here and I don't think I would, because that was how I healed myself. And that was something that I can control during that time. And, but that's why, to me, that's the most beautiful thing about running is like your, why am I doing this can change and evolve over time. And, you know, it started losing weight. And then during that time, it was because I needed that for me, I needed something to control something to work towards something that, yeah. Oh, that's interesting. So was it postpartum depression or was it a general anxiety that you're going through or was it more on the depressed side, but not necessarily postpartum? Yeah, it wasn't postpartum. It was just hard,

you know, like being at home with a zero and a one-year-old for a long time is tough. And I have a very supportive family and my husband is awesome. Like he did everything he could, but it's just, that was a really, that was an exhausting, a physically exhausting, mentally exhausting time for me. The radical drain on that early phase for parenting, let alone mothering is in and of itself, biologically beyond what most people can ever understand unless they're actually in it. The tax is so high on energy systems. And so you're saying that, no, it wasn't necessarily like depression that led to the fatigue. It was fatigue and some isolation, some loneliness. And I don't want to put depression as a label on it, but did it move into a depressed state or was it a deep fatigue, loneliness? And you're like,

this is not how I want to live my life. And you had this high agency. You're like, let me do something. Let me go run. I think that it was the high agency. I don't think I was depressed, but it was a really tough time. And I put running in my life as, you know, I'd get a babysitter down the street or my mother-in-law would come over and I felt really guilty taking that time to myself, but I just needed like a little space. And, and then I was doing something that was feeling really good about, you know? So, and I was really proud that I was running and that I could run like three full miles or 10, 10 full miles. And, and especially when they were young, like getting babysitter, it wasn't like, uh,

I need 20 minutes. I'd be like, listen, I need two hours. And if I need to be out running for two hours to get that two hours to myself right now, that's what I was going to do. So, um, and running, it was really like, it was soothing. I could listen to whatever I want. I was listening to your podcast. I could, you know, listen to music or just, I didn't have, I didn't have people on me

at that time. I just had a little space and a really chaotic life. And then, so it seems in some respects, very counterintuitive, which is I'm exhausted. Let me go do something that is high effort. So how does that work? That's a really good point. I think that, I don't know, running for me, it calms my mind. It gives me energy. Like I think, I don't know, that's a really, that's a good point, but I just felt really good about myself. And I think that gave me the energy and the excitement then to, for me to take a back seat and put everything into my kids, I guess. So there is a counterintuitive insight here,

which is when we get high stimulus in our life and there's an on that needs to take place, it actually sets our autonomic nervous system up for success. So with the, as high as you can go on the on or the intensity of an experience, you get an equal rebound effect of the craving for recovery. But we need that. I'm oversimplifying the on off or the yin-yang if you want to be a bit more Eastern about it. And if we don't stimulate ourselves with intensity, then we down-regulate our capacity. And then our body goes, yeah, I don't know if I need to turn on or off. Well, let me just kind of be in this junk phase. And then by the time you get to, and you know what I mean by junk phase from an energy system. And then by the time you get to nighttime, you're like, well, I'm kind of

in this junk phase. I'm not, I'm not, I'm tired, but I'm just kind of in this junk phase as an energy system. So I wonder if that had something to do with it for you as well. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I like, I like being tired after a run and feeling like I earned it, you know, in the days that I don't run, I just, you know, it's like, I just don't feel as good. Like even during my break, I would run recreationally, but, um, but yeah, I think that, I think you're spot on there. So how did you give yourself permission to dream again? Because you, you shut, you shut it down. You quote unquote, just kind of turned your back on that world, on your potential in that world. So how did you, I hear you saying I needed something,

but then that's very different than, oh, I'm going to do this. I'm actually going to really apply some effort to get fast. Yeah. I jumped in a marathon and this was, I think my second marathon back after having kids. And I was two minutes from the Olympic trials marathon qualifying time. And I'd never qualified for the Olympic trials before. So being two minutes off, I was like, man, that's in, in a marathon two minutes, isn't a lot of time. So I'm like, that's like what? Four seconds per mile. Yeah, I can do that. And then that switch happened. Then I got intentional. Then I called my coach and asked for help. And that's when, um, that's when it started getting really intentional. And at first it was just to qualify. And then once I qualified, I was like, well, if I'm going to show up at the Olympic

trials, this isn't a victory lap. I'm going to show up and I'm going to compete. I'm going to see what I can do. So I worked my tail off, like getting to 2020 and to compete. That process of using your imagination to be able to see yourself close to or doing the thing that you want to do, that's an untapped resource for so many people. But that's what I was talking about earlier,, that, that proximity, like, Oh, wait a minute, two minutes, four seconds. I think I could do four seconds over, you know, a marathon. Like, I think I can do that. Okay. Hey coach, how do we do, how do we shave four seconds per mile?

And it's like that digestible process. It sounds like is important for you, but can you talk about how you use your imagination? Yeah. I don't know if I'm that imaginative. Like for me, it's, I did that. I felt good. I can go faster. What's next. And then I'll go to the next goal. And so I wasn't imagining that I'd ever sit here as the American record holder. I was imagining that I could make it to the trials and then I made it to the trials and I did well. And I thought, well, I can run faster than that. So I don't know. I'm very mathematically minded and very analytical in that way. So I don't know if I would describe myself as imaginative. Oh, there you go. Okay.

So it wasn't your imagination. It was very matter of fact, like, oh, we just did that. Well, if we do the math, it's four seconds off. Let's go to work. That's possible. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So you never had the big thing. I'm going to be a record holder. You said, I'm going to go four seconds faster. Yeah. Do you, so. And you used the idea of I needed something that I could control. Does your mind, if you were to jump on a seesaw and one end was depression and one end was anxiety, would you err on the side of the anxiety approach? And so that's the excessive thinking? Or is it more somatic where it's like, man, my body just tells me when I'm kind of not working correctly. I've found, yeah, I'm not exactly sure.

Like for me, I fill my life with things so I don't have to think and overanalyze. So I'm so busy now that I don't have time to be anxious, you know? So whenever I find myself being anxious, I just do something and I just stop thinking about it. So, um, yeah, I don't, I don't know. So I, I am an anxious person. I do tend to worry and overthink things and I obsessive planner, but I, I know that about myself. So whenever, like leading into a race, I try to have really like low key things that are, that keep me busy. So I'm not thinking about a race and nervous energy and everything. What are you afraid of? Anxiety is an excessive worry that something could go wrong. You know,

like what is it that sits underneath of that busy mind? I have no idea. I have no idea. I have no idea because it's funny. I've gotten the question a lot. Now that you have the American record, do you feel a lot of pressure? I feel no pressure. That's awesome. I don't feel any pressure.

I'm either going to keep doing well or I'm not, and that's okay. I don't know what my biggest fear is. That's a really good question. Well, it's probably been something that's been running in the background since you were a little girl. And it's a way that has kept you sharp. It kept you going. It kept you alert. And then at some point it's like, oh my God, it's just kind of tiring. Let me focus on something, whether it's game planning or cleaning the office or whatever it of tiring. Let me focus on something, whether it's game planning or cleaning, you know, the office or whatever it might be. Let me focus on that. And that takes me away from the musing that can lead to the other side of what if. The downside, if you will,

of what if. And I want to be clear, it doesn't mean, I think you would agree with this. It doesn't mean we don't ask the, well, what if that happens? It just means we don't excessively contemplate it because that's a big part of the anxiety circle or loop. Yeah. I don't overthink things at all. I go know, like I go into race, I know what my race plan is, and then I don't think about it and tell them in the race. So I try to just keep my mind very distracted in a way, away from it. You seem really free. Yeah, I would agree with that. And then it's not that the result gave you freedom, it's that you had a sense of freedom before where you didn't have it as a 24-year-old, probably as a 26, 28-year-old.

I don't know that. But I think that this is your superpower. Obviously, you've got some genetic coding to be able to access oxygen for a long time. But like, I think that there's something else here that is more available to more people. So can you speak about this freedom? Yeah, I think that I'm just happy. Like, I'm really happy with my life. And I'm really proud of who I am and what I've done.

And I know I'm not always going to succeed. I'm going to fail and I'm okay because I know that's the place to learn. And I don't know, like with anything that happens in running, like no matter if I win or I lose, like I come home and life is exactly the same. My kids like, mom, can you get us some orange juice? You know, like, and that makes me really happy. Um, and this whole like running thing I've structured in a way that's been really fun for me. And I think for a while I hid behind, this is fun to hold off the pressure and to keep off any goals. And like, I'd show up to a race, you know, I'd have a goal that I want to run,

but also I'm just, I'm here to have fun. And then whether I hit the goal or not, did I have fun? Hell yeah, I had fun. That was awesome. You know? So I think I hid behind that for a while and I put running in my life and that needed to be my fun thing. And I think just leaning into that has allowed me to be really free. Wait, let me hear, let me play back. Something that got confusing is that I don't know if you're talking about when you're 24 is that you're hiding behind, um, having fun. Were you saying that I would show up like just on this fun facade and it was a covering for the anxiety or the devastation if I didn't have it, but I was just checking. I was using as a shield to be okay, but really I was more anxious. Yeah. 24, I didn't have that.

This walk of my life where I've protected that, I've tried running, running serious, running's hard, running's focused. I don't want that. I want running to be fun. I want it to be my release. I want to kind of do with what I want to do. So I think I've leaned into that this round, which I never even touched in the first round, but I think, yeah. And I think also like for a while, then it was, you know, I don't know. It's like, I, I can take running really serious and have a lot of fun. And I think that, I don't know, I hid behind that I, I can take running really serious and have a lot of fun. And I think

that, I don't know, I hid behind that. Like I'm not taking this seriously. So if I don't do well, that's okay. Like I'm only, this is just fun, you know? So even though this is so important to me and I'm working really hard and if like my mind's idle, it goes to running. I think about running all the time. So I think that that's kind of how I've had to like, I don't know, just structure it, I guess. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day. And Cozy Earth has become a new

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that it's hard, it's serious, it's intense. It's for the grinders, I'm a grinder. Or it could be, I actually like the way it feels to just go and to be with myself, to be with the environment. And this is fun. And I'm going to keep that mindset because that's the philosophy that sits under who I want to be, whether I'm running or parenting or, or speaking or whatever I'm doing that I want to have fun in life. And so I'm going to carry that into running as well. And, and that's just kind of as simple as it gets. That is spot on. It's pretty, yeah, it's pretty simple.

And like, yeah, the first round I thought success would make me happy. And I was just so focused on that. And now I'm happy. And it turns out I've had more success than I could ever imagine because I'm just so happy with who I am. And just, no, no. Can you say, I just want to feel you say it one more time. You said like, I'm just happy. Can you say that one more time? Yeah, I'm happy. I'm really happy. Where do you feel that? Just in my heart, my heart, like just, it's tickling just saying that, like, I just, I have a husband who's so much fun and he works really hard too, but he is my rock and he's very supportive and he has his

own goals. And, um, we have a lot of fun together. He's my best friend. And I have kids that are hilarious and energetic and healthy and happy. And I feel like, you know, I'm not like the world's best mom, but having healthy and happy kids, I feel like I'm doing something right. And then I have running, which is like my passion and I'm able to do that every day. And it really feels like a gift. And I just, I feel so lucky and just so thankful of where I am in my life and who I'm surrounded by in my life. And I'm just so thankful. And yeah, I think that's where all the happiness comes from. It's wonderful. I want to relish in this with you because it's an important part of the human experience. don't understand anger or that you don't, I don't think that you are muted and you're like, Hey, let's just hold hands and let's skip through the, this kind of, you know,

garden here and everything's going to be okay. I don't get that. I'm not that. No. So how, how would you help others? If people say, if we ask a question like, what do you want in life? And people say, you know, I don't have enough happiness. Like I don't feel joy. I don't have it. And you go, oh, okay, hold on. I'm actually pretty good at it. How would you write the curriculum, the unfolding, the unfolding curriculum of happiness? That is such a tough question. I feel like if I had a really concise answer to this, I'd probably be like a million billionaire because I feel like that's what we're all searching for is that happiness. And I don't know, I think like it first comes to like figuring out yourself and what makes you happy and kind of leaning into that and what excites you, what, what gets you excited to wake up in the morning. What about when your family is pissed off at you? What do you do there?

Um, I look at why they're pissed off and try to figure that out. And I think there's sometimes they're going to be pissed off for things that are a little out of my control. Like I'm gone for a week cause I'm at a race and it's like, well, they're pissed off, but this is, this is part of the sacrifice. So it's kind of, we need to work through this and, you know, acknowledging that they can be upset with me for that, but this is my goal and this is part of the sacrifice. And then there's things where sometimes I just mess up and you just kind of have to accept that and apology, apologize. You know, I'm definitely like, I mess up a lot. Sometimes I can own it. Sometimes like I kind of, yeah, don't, but, um, do you defend yourself quickly? Yes. Yes. I'm working on it. I'm working so hard. I'm working so hard on that. If you figure that

part out, I can get really defensive because in my head, I'm like the good guy and I'm doing the best I can with everything. And I definitely, I forget a lot of stuff. And like, there's just, I don't connect the dots. My, my husband's so much more perceptive than me. And he's like, why'd you do that? You saw this. And I'm like, I didn't even connect the dots, you know? So, but yeah, I, I, I try the best I can with all I do. So I think I get defensive because I'm trying my hardest. Yeah. I would imagine that's a response. Yeah. For you, for me, it is too. Yeah. Why do you think you're defensive? Why? Oh, I think, I think you just nailed it, which is I'm doing my very best.

And then like, sometimes I'm hanging on, you know, at the edge of the cliff, my nails are dug in. And other times it's like, I'm able to dance at the edge of the cliff and like, but whatever the scenario is, as soon as somebody is like, Hey, what are you doing? You're blowing it. It's like, Whoa, Whoa, what? And so it's classic. My wife and I, we've been dating since, um, since we're in high school. So we've, we are flat out best friends and, uh, like, you know, we'll have our moments. And, and then when I'm at my best, I go, I'm doing it again, huh? She goes, damn right you are. And then it's just, then it's laughter from there. So, but I think that that defensiveness is, it just slows down the self, slows down the discovery. And when I'm at my best, I'm really aware of my response of any situation. And then when I'm aware and I can put words to it, okay, now we're into the truth category. And it's like, yeah, this is what's actually happening. But what you do is you go, oh, wait a minute. What's in my control? What's not in my control? So this control mechanism

is a powerful mechanism for you. You've, you've mentioned it many times. And so if you can't control it, then you're not messing with it. It sounds like. Yeah. The things that are out of my control, like I'm not going to lose sleep over that, you know, um, like the weather going into any race day. I know a lot of people are checking the weather, asking me what the weather is going to be. I'm like, listen, I'm not going to, I'm going to race that day and I'll come prepared for anything. I'll figure out what I need to wear and how I need to hydrate. I'll figure out what I need to do, but I'm not going to stress over that because I can't control that. Let's talk about hard things really quickly. Um, let's do training.

What's the hardest part? Is it starting? Is it the kind of the monotony in the middle? Is it the end when you're pushing? It's starting. It's starting. Yeah. I'll get a workout and I'll just be like, I don't think I can do that. But my coach has never assigned me a workout that I haven't been able to do. So for me, it's just getting the confidence, you know, and there's a level of trust, which I think it works really well. So whenever he gives me something, I know if he says I can do it, I can do it. But it's just that the nervous energy starting a workout, because there's a little bit of what if I can't do this, you know, and then I answer that, well,

if I can't do it, then I won't, and it won't happen. And that's okay, you know, we'll move forward. But But yeah, I think it's just starting for me. You've got this incredible balance between like this razor razor's edge. No, I finished things and I get it done and I'm flying actually, you know, right now I'm going really fast and you know what? It's okay. It's okay. If it, like, if it doesn't work out, like my life is good, I'm happy. And no, I'm good. But I'm going to get after it. And I'm going to have a lot of fun doing it. You've got this great balance between those two.

Yeah. I think you're absolutely right. And I think it's, I've had that more now than I did before. I don't think I had that balance in my first round. That's because you won. That's because you were getting adulation. That's because you were breaking records. That's because you were top whatever. Is that the case? Or is it? No, no, no, no. I had that going in. And those records started happening. fail or succeed and succeeding doing it. My way has been so beautiful that I didn't, you know, I don't train with a group. I don't train at altitude. I'm not a training camps. Like there

are so many things that I do differently than a lot of my competitors. And people have told me on this journey that I should move here. I should train with this. I should do it this way. So it's been just really validating that I've leaned into what excites me. And it like, it worked for me, you know, which makes me, I feel like other people too, like my path isn't the one path forward, but it's just taught me there's so many different ways to climb the mountain. There's some really dangerous approaches to marathoning. I mean, you can get in some of these camps where it is, I mean, just barely feeding. I don't too busy to take an app during the day. And not a lot of elite athletes say, you know, they do naps. I usually don't have time for an app, but, um, I get a massage once a week. I do PT. I do a lot of prehab exercises. Um, I'm very aware of some of my like mechanical weaknesses that I work really hard to make sure that there's not like a muscle imbalance.

Um, so yeah, I work really hard to stay healthy. I know that you're, you have done some work with inside tracker as well, which I've appreciated what they've built. I love inside tracker. I love inside tracker. I don't have a sports lab. I don't have a nutrition team. I don't have any like fancy stuff, but I do inside tracker religiously every quarter. And I work really hard to make sure my levels are good. And I've struggled with low vitamin D and low ferritin in a lot of these things that need to be tracked. And I work really hard to get it through nutrition. And if I can't get it through nutrition, I'll add in like a vitamin, but, um, they have really, really helped me with, uh, kind of, I feel like I have my own like team when

it's, you know, with InsideTracker. So that's awesome. Yeah. I've really enjoyed what they're doing. And then how, how do your friends describe you? If we pull out from the technology a little bit, but how do you like this more global holistic, how do they describe you? I think fun, hopefully, if they're my friend, hopefully we're having fun.

Pretty determined and competitive. I remember all growing up, I was super competitive even in gym class or whatever. I always wanted to win. It's not until recently where I realized that I would have probably been a more fun friend to be around if I didn't always win and other people would win. Maybe that's something that that would more fun friend to be around if I didn't always win and other people would win. So I'm like, maybe that's something that that would have made me more likable if I wasn't so competitive. I just had that realization a few, like maybe a month ago on a run. I'm like, huh, maybe being competitive isn't a good thing for friendships.

But yeah, I think they see I'm determined. I have a really close group of girlfriends that I've been friends with since high school. And, um, yeah, I really value their friendship. Yeah, there you go. Okay. And then when it comes to like next for you, how, what does that look like? Is there a phase to running? Yeah. So I kind of alternate between like marathon training and speed training.

And, um, I think that's something that's a little bit unique, but I work really hard to bring my mile 5k, 10k times down before I get into a marathon base. So then running five 15s is going to feel easy when I can do mile repeats at four 40. Um, so I'm in nice speed training right now. And so I'll have some shorter races, which are a little bit out of my comfort zone, but it's kind of fun because there's, you know, it's kind of all, I don't know if it just, I feel like I'm playing around because it's not like my distance. Um, and then I'll do a fall marathon and then I, um, everything I'm doing really is gearing

up for 2024 Olympics. I'm not an Olympian and I'd like to be, so let's, uh, let's see, let's see if I can get there. Let's go. Okay. Awesome. I want to be able to follow that with you and support you in any way that we can. And like, it's like, it sounds like you have got the foundations in place to be able to weather

the storms because there's storms coming. And, you know, like it sounds like it's a really sturdy foundation that you're building. So that's awesome. I was going to say, I really appreciate you saying that because I've never spoken with a sports psychologist before. And I've thought like, maybe I could like get to the next level or maybe mentally if I thought about things differently. But then I kind of like, well, how I'm thinking about things is working.

So maybe, but it seems really good right now. I'll say, I don't know, but I feel like it's, it's, I'm not trained. I don't know. Like I was worried coming into this conversation, you'd throw out some vocabulary that I'm like, I don't even know what that means. Cause I've kind of just stuck to what's felt good for me, but that means a lot that you say that. Yeah, no, it's really fun. It's refreshing, you know? And so I think that you've earned your scars and you've come out the other side going, oh yeah, that scar, I'm just, that was because I was so critical or so nervous and I'm just not

doing it that way anymore. I'm actually, I'm committed to happiness. I am committed to fun. I'm committed to being connected to my body, connected to my friends, connected to my family, not in that order, but I'm, I'm, there's a connectivity that's really important to you. Okay. How about this for just a little bit of fun? It all comes down to me. Keep going. What does that mean? It, it, what I do. And I don't know, I feel like I can rely on myself, you know, and I trust myself. I trust my instincts.

I trust that I make good decisions. And even like looking back at things that I did in the past, like even some cringy things, like it's like, well, I was doing the best with what I knew then, you know? So I kind of, I don't know. So I just, I just feel like I'm capable for whatever gets thrown my way and I'll figure out a way through. So I just, I don't know. I feel like I can trust myself and I rely on myself. My vision is?

My vision is happiness My vision is happiness. Money is? Icing on the cake. Success is? Success is setting a goal and working towards something. So it's the actual work. It's not the failure is not getting the thing, but success is working toward a thing. I think, yeah, I think success is having the courage to set a goal and start

working towards it. I think that's success. You know, I think stay at even just standing on the starting line saying, I'm going to do the best I can. I think you've succeeded just by, by starting, I guess. Is that a weird answer? No, no, it's cool. It's free. Totally freeing. And then when you think back on some of the podcasts, the funny mastery podcasts that you've enjoyed, what were some of those? Oh man.

I, I think one of my, so I think I originally heard you on another podcast and I was like, this Dr. Mike character is real cool. What else is he doing? So I started looking you up and like, I, like I said, I've never talked to a sports psychologist before. And so, and I know every episode you're like, uh, you know, I'm not your psychologist, but you know, but I listened to that because it was so much easier to train my body than it was to train my mind.

And I listened to so many of your podcasts thinking I do that. I don't do that. Maybe I should do that. Oh, that's definitely not me. I structure, but it really like, since I'm not very reflective, it was nice for me to hear what other people were saying and saying, ah, yeah, that's what I do. But I loved, um, well, recently Hillary Allen, that one, I laughed and cried. Like it was, that was, I think, my favorite episode. But then also- Do you feel, so it sounds like you use the podcast to be like,

hmm, oh, that's interesting. Not for me. Oh, I like that. I'm going to try that out. Yeah. And so you're using it as like a calibration tool for, well, how would I answer that question? Or, oh, that's interesting that that's the response.

Let me try that out. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I remember like early on, you did one with a surfer, a chick. She, I think she had lost an arm. Yeah.

And in a shark attack. And I remember listening to that episode and just how like brave she was to go back to surfing. And for me, I think if like a shark attacked me, I would never go near the water ever again. But she saw that as like, no, like I'm resilient and that's not going to stop me. I'm going to go back. And that was a really like defining podcast for me. Cause in a different way, I kind of felt like I had, you know, my own version of it, you know, not anywhere near traumatic or anything, but I was, I had something that took me away and I chose to come back.

And even though it was scary and she even talked about, you know, just how she calmed herself down from imagining that happening again. But like, I don't know, I feel like in a way that gave me permission, like I can get back and I can try again, you know? So I, I, I can't even tell you how powerful your podcast has been for me. And just even having the experts on like your sleep expert episode. I love that one. I made my husband listen to it because he's a terrible sleeper and that's really helped him a lot so thank you for all that you're doing for the world so sweet no no thank you it led us to this conversation and i i'm i'm refreshed and rejuvenated by your approach and i love it and that it was bethany bethany hamilton bethany was a surfer she was yeah she's awesome she's so cool man yeah she is cool and then for like, so she lost her arm and

she's still surfing. If you lost the leg, you know, what, what, what would your response be? Yeah, I think I'd keep at it. You know, running makes me really happy. And, and I think also like something I'm just trying to find my best every day. I have no idea when I'm going to start slowing down and when my age is really going to keep up with me. And there's, I know there's going to be a time where I'm not going to be able to run as fast as I did yesterday. And that's okay. Cause I'm going to run as fast as I can every single day, you know? So I think that when that time comes, you know, I'll set new goals and I'll have new records and new things to chase. So, yeah. So I want to hit on this.

When you say finding your best, it's amazing because I didn't know what to name. I took all the best practices in our team. We took the best practices in psychology and we built an online course and we named it that finding your best. Oh. Because we didn't know another name. Yeah. And it's all the best practices to be able to help you find your best.

And so I love that we're vibing on that. And then the thing that I want to hit on though, today, I'm going to go just be my best. That is not easy. There's, there's a razor's edge and you could pull off of it, or you could say, stay on it, stay on it, stay on it. And it, it's not like, oh, I'm okay that I felt it. And then I just didn't want to do that anymore today. Like I just felt a little tired. There's an, there is an organic listening. And then there is a, um, leaning into the hard thing

and then doing it according to your style, your philosophy, which is like delightfully, but it's still hard. And I just, I want to just hear you respond to that. You say, no, Mike, that's wrong. Or you say, oh yeah, that, that, that is absolutely true. Yeah. Well, I think for, to be your best, you don't need to be on every single day, you know? And I think for me, I know enough in running that I can't race

every single run. So sometimes to be my best, it's taking a day off sometimes to be my best amount in a run and everything sucks. I just stop and walk home. Like I walk up hills sometimes, even now, you know, and that's okay. Cause that's my best that day. How do you know if you're just being undisciplined, lazy, unmotivated? How do you know? How do you make that decision? It's through experience, I think. And I've failed. I've tried to race every run and then I get tired and I can't nail the workout. So it's through experience. It's through failing and through learning. And, and now, you know, I don't know. I walk up hills sometimes and I've been able to reach my goals. So maybe that is the nice break that I need in the middle of a run. You know, I don't always walk up hills, but

I don't know. I think there's like the experience and maturity there that I've learned. That's very cool. There's like, I asked a sports scientist that I really respect, he was on the podcast, Per Lundström, and I asked him how he thought about developing high-performing habits and performing on the world stage. And he said, reference points. What do you mean? Having as many dynamic reference point as possible is what allows these little micro decisions to be optimized. And whether it's a technical reference point or psychological or emotional, just as many reference points as you can have. And it feels to me like that's your dipsticks. It's like you're taking temperature, taking temperature, seeing how the oil, oh, okay, these, whoa, I just, let me check that again. Oh, it's empty. Wait, let me check it one more time.

Oh my God, it's empty. Okay, I'm walking up this hill now. Right? Is that close? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So I think reference points being almost being a harvester of reference points, which means you have to live. You have to live a range of emotions and experiences and you have to travel. And I don't necessarily just mean physically, but travel with your imagination, travel with your conversations, travel and explore. And when you do that and you're really attuned, you have all of these reference points that you're able to utilize to either share and pass those on or to use for decision-making for yourself. But to me,

that's been materially important. Yeah. Yeah. I like that. I like that a lot. Dipsticks. Reference points. Dipsticks. Yeah. Dipstick. I didn't think I'd be saying that word on your podcast today, but I have a question for you. Oh, please. Yeah. Where do you, where do you find your curiosity? Whenever I listen to your podcast, I admire you so much because you were so curious. And I feel like when you're talking to someone, you put yourself in their shoes to like, understand where they're coming from. And like,

when I talk to someone, I think about my own situation and how I can relate to that person through my views. And I feel like that makes me a really terrible conversationalist. But when I listen to you, you're so curious. And I just want to know where that comes from. Like, have you always been that way or. Yeah. I, as a, um, I'll tell you a story and then I'll, I'll try to concretely answer, concretely answer it is that in high school I was, I would annoy my friends ad nauseum, like, dude, stop it. Like, fuck, it's just fine the way it is. Why are you asking me all these damn questions for? And you know, the 16 year old, you know, punks and me included. And so that, that is, it's something that's been around for a long time when

I look back and it is a, it's an earnest, like, how, how does that work? Well, how does that work for you? Oh, wait, that doesn't, well, how does that work? And so it's just like, I think that I'm in awe with the human experience and the potential that lies dormant is, we're going to need it in the next 40 years. We need some unlocking. And I think that one of the great unlocks for humanity is our own psychology and the way we work with our emotions. And that is the great unlock. So I really want to understand it. And then so when I'm in conversations with

another person, it's almost like there's a matrix that I'm working from and I'm like, oh, wait, oh, that's an unchecked box. Or, oh, that one, let me follow that path because I'm unclear there or this person's really on it. How do they illuminate and make it more clear? And so it's a bit of a mapping that's happening inside me. And then I'm using that up against like the words and the way you're using the words. And it just, it just kind of happens. And so that's the best way I could describe it. But I really do care about the understanding at some points more than I do care about what's exactly happening for you. So I go back and forth between what's actually happening right

now for you. And then how is this fitting in an understanding of the thing that we're trying to solve together? So I see most of my conversations with people is like, we're trying to solve something together. And it's more of a tapestry that has not been, there's no kind of map for how this tapestry works. It's not like build this tapestry. It's like, you've got some cloth, I've got some cloth, we're trying to put it together. Sometimes we run out of string. And, you know, so it's this mapping in that respect of building a tapestry. And that's like mixing metaphors all over the shop. But that is, that's a, that's a bit of the off the cuff response I have. That's fascinating.

Well, I really admire you and just like your questions and everything are always just so spot on. And I just don't, I mean, I know by trade and you've practiced this for your life, but you just hear things that other people don't hear. And it's so fascinating to listen to. Thank you for putting that into the world. I'm honored and thank you. And it's. And it's noted. So I appreciate it. And did any of those things happen in this conversation where you're like, oh, I wouldn't have gone there? Or,

oh yeah, there it is. Cool. That's a nice illumination. Did any of that happen in this conversation for you? Yeah. And I knew, yeah, absolutely. You asked me questions that no one's ever asked me before, which was really fun, you know, and I've done a lot of interviews about the marathon and everything and my experience, but I think we got to levels that I've never really talked about. But yeah, so that was exciting. What questions do you hear that you're like, oh God, not this again. Okay. And then, you know, you go into it, but like, what are some of those questions that are

just. I will tell you the number one question I get is, well, you're a mom. Like, how do you do it all? And that has started feeling like, I don't know, like being a mom is the most, I take the most proud pride in being a mom is the most, I take the most proud pride in being a mom. They're like, there's so much of me that's defined of being a mother, but that question is almost started to feel a little sexist that, um, you know, how do you do it all? It's like, well, how do, how do men do it all? I don't know. I do the same thing. We all just get it done, you know? So

that, that, uh, that question I get a lot. And I also, I feel like if I had the answer of how I fit it all in the day, another million dollar idea if I could write a book on that. I do want to encourage you. You don't need to do anything. I want to encourage you to sit with somebody if you don't love writing, but if you do, and maybe you already are, I think that you're sitting on some really important insights and to tease some of those together, small book, big book, verbal, written, video, whatever, like you've got some insights that I think are important to share. So for whatever that's worth. I appreciate that. Yeah, that's cool. And then I just want to,

I just want to, I was thinking about what you said about the questions. I think most people in our community, they, they do like the questions of that, that are presented, but it's also why people tune out of this podcast is because they say, can I just know what shoes she runs? And what is her cool down mechanism? And how does she structure the pace? This is a world record holder. What are her training programs? OK, she said no elevation.

What is she doing for that? Is she doing chambers? They want the tactics. And I want the understanding. And so I fall short on the tactics they want like and i want the understanding and so i fall short on the tactics quite a bit but i thank you for appreciating the the narrative that sits underneath the tactics this is to me the more complicated and hard part you know you could go read any training book you could go on my strava you could see exactly what i'm doing you know but

like this conversation right here i don't know i think is even more insight to how I've structured and gotten here. And it's kind of, I've taken a very unique, strange path that I wouldn't recommend for everyone, you know, but this was my journey, you know? So I think that it's cool that we got to dig into. There we go. I am, I'm grateful to feel and to know your story better and thank you for sharing so much well thanks for having me this was a dream come true all right thank you so much for diving into another episode of finding mastery with us our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you we really appreciate you being part of this community and if you're enjoying the show the easiest no-cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're

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