Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Forrest Griffin, UFC Hall of Famer

Episode Date: November 28, 2018

This week’s conversation is with Forrest Griffin, a retired mixed martial artist and a UFC Hall of Famer.A former Georgia Police Officer, Forrest got his shot at UFC Stardom on the first season of the Ultimate Fighter.He won the first season in a fight against Stephan Bonnar that helped put MMA on the map.The Ultimate Fighter Finale was a wild success and brought a lot of new attention to the UFC at a time when the sport was at a make or break point.Forrest went on to become a UFC Light Heavyweight World Champion and eventually was inducted into the UFC Hall of Fame.I had the pleasure of meeting Forrest for the first time at an event this past July - “Evel Live,” where motorsports icon Travis Pastrana honored legendary daredevil Evel Knievel by attempting three of his most dangerous feats in Las Vegas.We had a great conversation around what it takes to be mentally prepared inside the Octagon and I knew we needed to follow up with a podcast.Fighting can be a great metaphor for life.You get hit, you get knocked down, mistakes are made, but as Forrest makes clear, it’s all about how you react, how you adjust in those moments.Are you going to focus on the mistake or figure out how to survive and flourish from that point forward?Forrest has a unique perspective on life - while fighting can be an intense and violent sport, he’s light-hearted at his core and that definitely stands out in this conversation._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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and elbowed me in the face ad nauseum. I want to get up and go punch her back. You hit people. You get hit by somebody. You rightfully get mad. The thing to do is hit them back. Cool. It's MMA. That's what you're supposed get mad. The thing to do is hit them back. Cool. It's MMA. That's what you're supposed to do. Okay. Welcome back or welcome to the Finding Mastery Podcast. I'm Michael Gervais by trade and training. I'm a sport performance psychologist, as well as the co-founder of Compete to Create, where we're taking the insights from my partner, head coach Pete Carroll, and how he's developed cultures to help people become their very best. And then my insights from

the psychological framework on what are the best practices to help people who are hungry to find their best to do just that. What are the ways that we can train our mind to excel, basically? So the idea behind this podcast, Finding Mastery, is to learn from people who are on the path of mastery, to better understand what they're searching for, how they organize their internal world, their external world, to understand the nuances of what it means to be human and what it means to express oneself through a craft. And we want to dig to understand what are they searching and aching for in life? What are they driven by? Where does that come from? The deep stuff, as well as the more mechanical mental skills.

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Now this week's conversation is with Forrest Griffin, a retired mixed martial artist and a UFC Hall of Famer. Forrest Griffin got his shot at UFC stardom on the first season of The Ultimate Fighter, and it is ridiculous what he's done in MMA. And so he went on to win the first season of The Ultimate Fighter in a fight that really put MMA and UFC on the map. It was a radical success. And it was because of the way that he engaged in this combative sport and his approach and attitude when it looked like he should have stopped. And it brought a ton of attention to the UFC and mixed martial arts and what that sport is

really about. And Forrest went on to become a UFC light heavyweight world champion, eventually was inducted to the UFC Hall of Fame for what he's contributed to the sport. And I had the pleasure of meeting him for the first time in an event this past July. It was the Evil Live event where the motorsports icon Travis Pastrana honored legendary Evil Knievel by attempting three really dangerous feats in Las Vegas. He made them look so simple. It was ridiculous. We're all watching going, oh no, he made this thing that was dangerous and difficult and hard to do look like anybody could do it. And it was amazing to see Travis do that on live TV. But that's where I got to meet Forrest. And we had just switched on conversations about what it takes to be mentally prepared inside of the Octagon. And I knew that we're going to follow up with a podcast because the conversation was just rich and was great.

And fighting can be a great metaphor for life. You know, you get hit, you get knocked down, you feel that pain, you feel the fear of that pain. Mistakes are made, but Forrest has made and makes it very clear. It is about how you respond, how you adjust in those moments, as much it is about the preparation to go in to meet those difficult challenges. And so that's the center of this conversation. So a major question that jumps out of this conversation is, are you, are we going to focus on mistakes, the fear of mistakes, what happens if a mistake? And I'm not suggesting that we don't do that internal gymnastics to think through it, to really have a plan and a strategy both before and after mistakes happen, but to figure out

really what are the necessary skills to flourish from that point, from those points when things don't go according to plan. Because if we're going to move into the thin herd space to travel the path to understand nuances that are difficult to understand, there's going to be lots of mistakes. And, you know, it's also like, what's the difference between a mistake and failure? Mistakes are going to happen. Flat out, they're going to happen. And what is failure? And defining what failure is is very different than a mistake. And so, you know, we talk about that as well in this conversation. So force has a unique perspective in life.

While fighting can be an intense and violent sport, he's got this just lighthearted, self-deprecating way that definitely stands out throughout this conversation. So that is one of the things that makes him special. And so with that, let's jump right into this conversation with Forrest Griffin. Congratulations on your body work. Like what you've done as a professional athlete in mixed martial arts is significant. You were there early days and really setting the tone. No, you're right. I've done a great job of being at the right place at the right time. I really have. I would say I've almost mastered it. And again, you know, I, that fight, you know, when I fought Stefan, right place, right time, right eyeballs, you know, just wouldn't, that's

what you do. Being lucky is way better than, than being skillful or whatever. So this is part of your personality is that you make light of things. You poke fun at things like you. So you've got a personality trait that you take the air out of things in England or in over the pond. They take, you know, they talk about taking the piss out of it, you know? And so that is part of your personality, but what seriously though, what you've done and I don't need you to get all heavy and serious and not only that i did it again so when i retired you know i'm telling you about the performance ufc performance institute you know the place where we're gonna dial in and figure

out what the perfect canon for training for modern mixed martial arts looks like i just like happened to hear this was a project that was happening and was like, I want to get involved in that. And sure enough, I was in the right place at the right time. I bullshitted the right people. I got the budget green lit. Now everybody's like, wow, you got that thing built. And I was like, yeah, I did. I mean, I didn't do any of the

actual work work other than, hey, we should do this. There you go. That's really like that success right there. When you have other people working their ass off. Oh my God. That's really nailing it. When you can convince that to take place.

Yes, yes. But in light of that, like, do you think that luck is a big part of success in life or whatever? Of course, of course. Luck, circumstance, whatever you call it. And then, you know, the cliche, luck is when hard work meets opportunity, right? So the same thing call it. And then, you know, the cliche luck is when hard work meets opportunity. Right. And so the same thing with me on the show, you know, so I don't know if you're familiar with my little story. I'm getting on the ultimate fighter. I was a replacement because somebody failed a test for weed. So don't smoke weed guys. And I was,

I had 17 days to figure out if I wanted to do it. I just gotten hired by the Richmond County Sheriff's department, like less than a year. It was literally, so you had to give 21 days notice to be eligible for rehire. I had 17 days notice that I could only give. You had to be working there for over a year. I had like 11 months and 28 days, or like 22 days or something. So I had to quit with ineligible for rehire oh my so you so the you had you were at a crossroad yeah yeah i got the opportunity to

get my dream job and i dropped everything i was doing in my job so you know in the story is actually like i quit my first job as a cop 2002 to become a professional cage fighter. In 2001, actually, two years later, I found myself homeless except for the grace of friends living. See, you know, you can never really be homeless if you have parents that have something. So I was never truly homeless. But I was living in my coach's living room on a mattress. I had a fight for eight grand and I was, this was big money. That was a lot of money back then. And, um, I didn't make it to the fight. I broke my hand right before in training and training for, and I, you know, so I did what you always do whenever you get in a financial trouble, I committed a felony. Yeah. So I don't know if you guys know

this, but you cannot get surgery for free in our current medical system if it's not going to save your life. So I had two spiral fractures in this hand and I couldn't get it fixed. I had no insurance or nothing. I was a professional cage fighter. Not a lot of benefits go with that. So I took out student loans, enrolled in class, withd withdrew collected the money and bought myself a new hand it's a great investment but technically a felony technically a felony how'd that work out for you worked out really well yeah yeah i got a new hand okay good and then if i and then like i broke my arm a year later in a fight don't check a low kick with your forearm

or a body kick with your forearm I broke my arm and I don't think I don't know that I would have ever actually graduated college if I hadn't broken my arm I broke my arm and I was like I ain't got shit to do like I was a bouncer so I couldn't work I couldn't train and so I was like how many classes do I need no like two okay and so I ended up getting two degrees because I just, I'd been in class for in college, like take one class semester for like six years. And they were like, Oh, do you? Okay. Yeah. Just write a paper. But I didn't even do that. Right. Did you want to, so you were on a mission to fight cage fighting. That was, that was your first love. My first love was I wanted to play football. And freshman year of college, I realized that wasn't going to happen for me.

I sucked. So as soon as we got the opportunity to leave, I just left my gear in my locker and never came back. And then I decided I wanted to be a nurse. Wait, wait, wait. I stopped you on wanting to be a nurse. That just seems funny for you. No, I always wanted to be a nurse. Weird. a nurse um that just seems funny for you no i always want to be a nurse i'm weird i knew i wasn't smart enough to be a doctor but like blood and panic situations i like like i like that boom

boom boom we're going i don't like him as much as now i think i'm old i'm 40 years old i'm a father i have a lot more empathy but you know when you're 18 like car accidents like i liked that that was like a that was that was like oh cool man i could sit in the hospital for eight hours a day and go bang bang bang bang time flies by help some people good deal why do you like that many people don't like that they're horrified by it they're traumatized by it they're afraid of it like what is it about you that you like that yeah but that's the opportunity right right? What do you mean? Just like fighting, just like public speaking. I'm not good at public speaking, but I do really well at it.

Do you know why? Because everybody else got a little nervous and didn't want to do it. And I was just like, oh, I don't care. I'm going to do it. I've never let being unqualified to do something stop me from doing it. So I gravitate towards fight, towards things that other people aren't comfortable doing. Does that make sense? Yeah, for sure.

Do you get nervous, though? Oh, yeah. But here's the thing. I was terrified when the plane took off this morning. I don't like flying. It's beyond my control. We could die. I don't want to do it.

It's not natural. I'm sardined up. Everything scares me. But so what? Life's not natural. I'm sardined up. Everything scares me. But so what? Life's really scary. Where'd you grow up? Mostly Georgia. Okay.

Yeah. Okay. So what did Georgia teach you? Was it a small community, big community? Middle. Middle road. It was real cool because when I was real young, I was in a very urban part of the town. And then I moved to a Catholic school because I got beat up too much in public school.

It just wasn't a good fit. I don't know if I was learning anything either. What happened? I don't remember. But I just remember this is grade school. We had metal detectors to get into school and this is like the 80s so yeah so that was a tough neighborhood but then we would uh what they would do is they would go out to the playground and hide knives like under you know where you

could grab them through the fence what kind of neighborhood i mean i guess not a great one anyway i got beat up there too much and then i went to Catholic school. But you said mom and dad had a lot. No. See, that was just me and my mom. I love my stepdad because we moved from a real crummy part of town to the suburbs and had a pool when I was 13 years old. Which is if you're ever see and I had a friend, Jonathan and Joey, two of my best friends. And I thought they were they had like cable and their dad had a nice truck. And I mean, they had a trailer park like us, but they were, they lived, you know, in the trailers, but I went from having very little to having a decent amount. Don't go the other way. So when we first sat down, yeah, good. Because when we first sat down, I thought, oh,

it came from middle, middle, upper class somewhere in 13. Yeah. yeah you know but what you just described is you lived in you had like a threatening experience or you're beat up uh plenty of times in grade school lived in a trailer then in fifth grade i went from fifth to seventh grade i moved i went to private school i had an awesome mom she actually was a teacher's aide there so i could go there for like reduced price and to me that was worse than the public school because these kids had money i went to a catholic school these kids had money and they were mean and it was like wow you know and then um you know so that really sucked for those couple years but in eighth grade i found something out i I was pretty big, pretty fast, pretty good at sports.

And then, boom. I'll tell you. Let's say 6'2 and 5'8, according to the University of Georgia. So 6'3, according to me. Yeah. I was like, is that taller than 6'2 and a half? 6'3. Okay.

So what size were you in eighth grade? Were you big at that time? 6'1, 180 pounds in eighth grade. Oh, my God. So seventh to eighth grade must have been funky for you well just no ninth grade that's i don't remember how big i was in eighth grade okay i just remember freshman year of high school they bring you in and they weigh you and measure and they're like damn this could be something traditional sports basketball

basketball football track track boom boom boom and then which one was your was football the one i was probably better at football. I really enjoyed basketball probably more, but I was better at football. So. Where'd they put you? Receiver? No, no, no. Defensive end.

Defensive end. So you got the body type right, but the ability to catch and run routes wrong. Yeah. So. Okay. So hands, good hands or not good hands? Not bad. Not bad.

Yeah. I caught a pass or two yeah okay now what about fighting are you good with your hands there no no really just saying that i lost most uh i mean i i don't know i fought a fair amount growing up uh and again it was just i didn't seem to mind getting beat up like everybody did it didn't occur to me at that age that you could like lose an eye or really get hurt or go to jail. Actually, I did go to jail for fighting and I lost that fight too, which really sucks. It's a double whammy, isn't it? I had to go to jail for getting beat up.

All right. So then let's think about this for a minute. There was an athlete, a cage fighter that I spent a lot of time with, and he said there's two types of people. Anytime, anytime you say that it's going to be too simple. Right. Right.

Right. But his thought was, there's actually three. There's always three. And what he was saying is that there's people that like to hit and people that like to be hit. And I don't know if you have any response or reaction to that, but in inside of that thought, do you like both of those or just like one of them?

No, I like both. You like to be hit. But even even more than that, I wouldn't even say that. I would say I don't mind being hit as much as everyone else does. I don't mind being in public, making an ass myself in front of a thousand people as much as most people do. How did you do that? That second part, not the first part, but the second part, not caring what you look like. Oh, I do care. I do care. I've just accepted. It's going to be God awful. And here, here, so, you know, here's the thing you, you would rather regret the choices

you make in life than the choices you don't make you know where'd you learn that i i love it where'd you learn so that was what i came up with in my head when dana white and the producer for the ultimate oh so the first time i go to do the ultimate fighter i'm at the airport i don't get on the flight to go to vegas i call my lieutenant back and i say hey man did do i do i have some leave time? Could you just say whatever? And like pull my resignation. And I was like, I'll call you back in like 10 minutes. And then I called the producer and said, man, look, I don't know if I want to do this. I think I might want to go back. And anyway, he ended up talking to Dana and the gist of what he said was, you know, don't be a bitch. No, the gist of what he said was,

uh, you'd rather regret the things you do in life, the choices you make than, than not making a choice. There's nothing worse than not making that choice, right? That's you, you've given your power up to not make the choice. Uh, and then I talked to my stepdad who said, worst case scenario, you're going to come back from Vegas with some great stories that last your lifetime. I was like, there you go doing it. And you respected your stepdad. Yeah. That was a good relationship. Oh yeah. Still is. Still is. I mean, he's still like, you know, he still comes over to my house and teaches me how to work on my house so yeah okay and he okay so mom and

dad why did they divorce or did they never get married no um i think my dad's left when i was 18 months old so i didn't really have much relationship with him what do you remember early days about and i'm i'm talking early early like ages three four five so that's another sign of intelligence i don't remember much at all from being a kid i love how you frame that do not like you know they say like people like i can remember being two i remember like being breastfed i was like i vaguely remember the house we lived in i don't like i vaguely remember our trailer i don't even remember it i remember the house we lived on stove all nothing before that and i like, I want to say first grade, second grade. Okay. How about this as a different

spin on what we're talking about? How do you protect yourself? What do you do? What are your mechanisms to protect emotionally, to protect yourself? Not physically. Cause you, you've got skills there, but how do you protect yourself from mistakes failure embarrassment pain and i'm talking about the emotional side yeah the bad kind of it that i guess let me think i don't know i don't know i don't is that a blind spot for you maybe a little bit i i don't know because we all have funky ways that we do things. Right. I don't feel like I alter my life to avoid anything. And if I do see that I'm doing that, I won't let myself do it. But I. How do you do that?

I don't know. I mean. When you recognize something. So I've jumped out of a plane a couple of times now. Right. Terrified. I don't like to fly a little. But I knew I was like, I got to do that. Did the rides on the top of the stratosphere don't want to do it gotta do it

why flew with my friend in his helicopter don't want to do it gotta because why yeah you just you know it's like i'm gonna let this stop me you you know it's a little cliche but you can't let things stop you if you're afraid of something the best way you know you're afraid of spiders you get a spider keep it in the glass and just you know well that's actually good science you know yeah flooding and desensitization like they're good routes for for getting through fears but then most people are like yeah why do i need to jump out of a plane like i'm afraid of it i don't know but then what what is driving you to do that because it's also related probably to your craft yeah just i mean yeah i guess just the need to to put myself in a situation that that makes you uncomfortable to an extent and then what do you learn from that you know i guess the thing to say was that i can do you know that i can overcome

fear maybe i don't know. I think one of the more, I don't think through it that much. I just know, I know in my life, there's things that like, even now we have meetings at work and I have something to say and everybody's on the phone and all the higher ups that it's like, it's a little bit nerve wracking, but I'll talk every time I'll say something, I'll, I'll say everything I have to say. And sometimes people are like, you know, I'm sure people like, you know, they'll let the dumb jack in here and he gets to talk now, you know, but I don't care. I'm going to say it anyway. I'm going to say, you know, do the best you can, but you have to, again, just keep moving forward. Right.

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to offer, and maybe it's not your place to offer it. Okay? Yeah, I don't know. How do you do that? Because there's plenty of people in the world that just play it safe and small. And I don't think you know how to play it safe and small. This happens to me all the time. Right. Where I hear somebody say something.

I was like, this does happen in those meetings I work on. I was thinking the same thing, man. And then so I think what I want to say and then I take a beat and then I frame it and reframe it and then I say it. Okay. Hold on. That's brilliant. So that's your process. So you think – so you're an introverted thinker? Yeah.

So you're introverted in nature? I don't know. Well, when you go – if you were to go to a party, would you hang out with a couple of people or would you bounce around from group to group? Where do you gather more energy? I would probably bounce around. It's somewhat obviously mood dependent and maybe even booze dependent. But again, I would probably bounce around because I would feel the need to get out of my comfort zone. Okay. So your natural preference would be to sit and talk to the four people I know. And go deeper and listen more than spew. Yeah.

So you're more introverted as a processor. It gives you more energy. So then what you do at a meeting, a public place, not public, but when there's more bodies that you think about what you're going to say, then you frame it in your head twice. Did I miss a step? No, no. That's it. What did I say?

When you say something to people, you try to think what you're actually saying and what they're hearing. And when I say reframe it, that's what I mean. What do they need to hear? I know what I want to say but how can i make it what they will understand what they need to hear does that make sense totally yeah because these people again you just said hey their suits are different they got you know they're different they have a different process than i do what what can i tell them they will sound right to their

ears but that is my actual point authentic to you yeah yeah and then oh no i don't care about authenticity yeah i don't believe you nah you're just gonna sell yourself out the the authenticity that just happens that's because i'm too lazy to fake it i believe that okay good i don't believe you're lazy by any means but i really do think that you care less to your point earlier. Tactical laziness. So purposeful. You know exactly when to apply leverage and when not to. I know you have a finite amount of energy.

I do anyway. I want to use it for the important things, not for the unimportant things, right? You're shifting gears and I really like where you went. Sorry. I won't do it again. No, it's really good. You got gems. That's why I was excited to sit down and talk to you.

You have a worldview that's really interesting to me. And so it's that irreverent piece, but then the gems that you just dropped are, I think, thoughtful. And then my mumbly kind of half Southern accent makes me sound like, wow, that guy might really be smart. Okay, so hold on.

I want to get both of these. I want to understand both first. He's either kind of smart or he's just drunk. Or he's just drunk all the time. What is going on there? But that loop that you have for framing, reframing, the only cost to that, so that's accuracy over speed. So the cost would be that you miss the timing.

I do, exactly. I miss it a lot. So you get the accuracy right but miss the speed. Other people sometimes will. And even when I get the final product out there, it's not a thing of beauty. It's not like crafted wordsmanship or anything, but it is palatable to all. And it is my point. But a lot of times people immediately throw the point out there as I'm trying to formulate the best way to say it. So there's, because you've taken the time to think through how you're going to say it. And then in a meeting, how often do

you speak? Is it, do you wait until the end? Is it kind of when inspired or how do you process that? I'm really polite too. I wait for natural breaks. You know, like if somebody, like you're on a conference call, you got to wait, wait for the natural break and i'll even what i do because i i you know one thing i do well is i do know my deficits and i said i had a poor working memory i'll make notes i write it down and then as soon as there's a break to the note you know i'll actually those gloves are this weight and they're this you know and it changed in this year you know okay short-term memory is different than working memory oh yes i've got poor both sorry seriously yes how many concussions oh so according to the military estimated at 30 for you yeah why the military i did did. Well, I did the, they have a great concussion protocol screen. And I was in Fort Campbell a couple of years back and we were doing like a cross where our fighters and myself got tested by the military.

And then the military guys got tested by Clinton Clinic, UFC, you know, for lack of a better word, synchronicities, people trying to figure out the same things. So what we're trying to figure out, we have a partnership with the Cleveland Clinic, Fighter Brain Health Studies is what it's called. It's a multimillion-dollar, multi-year partnership, boxing, Bellator. A lot of people are involved in it. We send a lot of fighters down there, but it's not like the old NFL model. Let's study it till people forget about it. Let's study it to death. We're trying to figure out what are the parameters when brain damage or brain cognitive decline becomes permanent and irreversible. And what are the tests we can use to determine that? And then say, Hey, look, just like you had a detached retina, man, I'm sorry. You're you,

you are done. You're done. Like, yeah, don't do this anymore. Your brain said your brain tapped out. So we, we'd like to develop those tests. Um, anyway, so I was, that's why I was there. That's why I was getting their test. They estimated me at 30. And I had really poor reaction time too. We were messing around and the ring card girls beat me in a reaction time drill. So I got that going for me. And that's the one thing I would say my balance and reaction time has gotten much worse. I've gotten older. What are you doing to counterbalance?

I can't juggle. You can't juggle you can't juggle you're done that career i do foot drills i do foot drills when my knee allows me so that's another thing i blew my knee out so but uh footwork uh i'll hit mitts try to hit mitts more often like technical bang bang you know a lot of thought process and then it's that works well especially for fighters because there is a bit of hardwired in doing it so it's, that works well, especially for fighters, because there is a bit of hardwired in doing it. So it's not totally form, but then when you add new things and make difficult, it's still, you know, learning like that reaction time. Like when you see like the guy and his partner hit mitts and you're like, well, that's like a dance almost. I, you know, try and do that once a week. Okay.

And then there's lots of different ways to train cognitive functioning. It sounds like. Learn a foreign language. Are you doing that you doing that math no i don't do anything i was gonna say you know the answers but you're not okay that's pretty good juggling yeah yeah there's tons of things to do yeah yeah okay uh no i don't do that okay so i watch a netflix i'm committed to the cognitive decline. But you're also committed to helping the next generation of fighters. Yeah, yeah. Well, that's my actual job. Yeah.

Everything that touches the athlete, I want to. Everything that touches the UFC athlete, I want to oversee, approve, and improve if possible, when possible. Like, how many media hits do you have to do how many you know how much money should x fighter make first y fighter what you know what insurance can we reasonably offer what what can we do to make a relatively hard job easier it is a hard job. But you use relative. So does every job, right? Yeah. There's a certain group that want fighters to unionize and want them to be employees,

and there's a group that wants them to be totally independent. So different fighters want different things for their own purposes. I get that. I like me too. I like me more than I like any organization in the world. Me and my family purposes. I get that. I like me too. I like me more than I like any organization in the world. Me and my family are more important than that. But I look at it like this. So my stepdad, who I mentioned, worked for Club Car for 23 years. Two years away from full pension. He's the lead engineer, highest paid, fired.

No, the cause he was given, literally after 20-something years, was like his desk was too messy. So no union, no recourse, no... That's the world, man. That's the direction things are heading. People, the gig economy, right? That's this you know unions make a mistake because unions like churches in my belief this is all opinion they become about protecting the organism not necessarily the people that started it you know so you're more interested in the more

nimble approach to the economic opportunities for people. I mean, I take it one fighter at a time. How many people did you, how many asses are you getting in seats? How many people are willing to pay to see you buy? You should get a cut of everybody that's willing to pay to see you fight. A true meritocracy. Yeah. Right?

Like if you've got merit, you should get paid. But the people at the bottom of the card, friends and family. So this is true. The people that open the prelims, whatever, the UFC often loses money on them. Oh, really? Nobody's showing up. Nobody bought a ticket to see them fight. Maybe their mother and father, right?

That's right. A couple of friends. That's not that their names aren't getting the TV deals done. And it's very unfortunate. You know, I mean, you're familiar with Conor McGregor, Ronda Rutt. It's just, it sucks for everybody. That's not them, but they, they make people, they, they, they separate people from their wallets and that's, that's sports, man. That's, that's entertainment. That's,'s entertainment that's you know do you consider yourself or did consider yourself as an athlete or an entertainer oh definitely an

athlete athlete yeah even though your check was an entertainment check i suppose it was yeah but i it's a sport you know it is the ultimate sport to me and i'm not saying knock on that no no right i get what you're saying the game inside the game so like whether you're sticking ball sport adventure sport whatever the thing is is as i retired i've moved to the other side like does that make sense yeah because i've evolved to wait this whole time i was fighting there were people paying and that was an important thing so two sides to the house right front of the house back of the house i didn't know there was a back of the house didn't care to it wasn't important to me at the time now i don't fight? Front of the house, back of the house. I didn't know there was a back of the house. Didn't care to. It wasn't important to me at the time.

Now, I don't fight anymore. Let's see what the back of the house looks like. And what are you learning? You know, it's hard to do business. In a day when people really like free, or you can get so many great services, and there's so many like netflix 10 bucks a month uh you know hulu six bucks what there's so many free services or cheap services

you're really competing with a lot you know because the ufc is an over-the-top channel over-the-top network yeah they have that aspect too they have that like their fight pass but then they have on tv and then they have pay-per-views and cable television live events in national live events okay so yeah they're trying to do everything and then what have you figured out like for modern business not that that's not the reason i wanted to talk to you right yeah it's good good because it would be... Yeah, but what are you figuring out? Because you've got fresh eyes on it. Because you were an athlete,

now you're seeing the difference between an athlete and an entertainer, and you're seeing how business is working. It's important that even after I'm gone, it's important that the UFC and really every organization keep a couple fighters or people that have actually done it around. Even if it wasn't me. Even, let's say, hey, I'm not in the picture. Something happens and I get fired. They need to get somebody in that position that can kind of marry the two together.

Yeah, custodians of purity in any environment is really important. And where does that come from? Where's the soul and the ethos come from you called me a janitor now huh custodians of purity yeah i was just called the agent i do quite up around what what was your uh nickname when you're fighting never had one you didn't think about my name force griffin that's very it's catchy yeah it's pretty good you know i'm like madonna and sting and Cher. I'm just forced, bro. Why did they name you Forrest, mom and dad?

Mom was a hippie. She was? Okay, so I missed this part of the story. Mom was a hippie. Yeah, mom still is a hippie. Yeah. Yeah, she sent me articles about there's going to be more plastic tonnage than fish in the ocean in 2050, baby. Are you doing anything about it i'm gonna i i do i really try hard to not use

we buy the trash bags that's it we don't buy ziploc i try i had a starbucks today with a straw not that straws are actually that bad it's just the idea yeah down here in southern california you have to ask for a straw now i don't use them it's cool i'm not a big straw guy i don't like plastic cups i don't like takeaway uh you know yeah okay all right let's go back to what makes a great fighter you know that kind of model that you perfected in many ways coming up and you might at the time you might not have known the model but certainly you're in the business of it right now so i'd like to get your thoughts on it. Mentally, I have no idea. Yeah, you do.

For sure you do. You're a legend in the sport. It's easier to look at physiology, anthropomorphics. Like I can tell you the arm length, the height, the strength ratio, measuring the wrist like in the NFL. You know, to give you combine answers, I'm actually trying to make, we've done pretty good. Our team's come up with a bit of a combine for MMA. Yeah, it's cool.

You know, reactive strength index. Like what are the most important physiological traits for MMA? I use Damien Maia as an example, physio a physical specimen but when he's grappling his mind works faster than yours he's got the ability to change chain moves together before you have the ability to transition defenses did you say his kinetic chain moves fast no no just mentally would that be kinetic is like how quickly you quickly and efficiently you can switch on your body, right? I'm familiar. But yeah, what I mean is like mentally he's able to adapt, react, and re-react with a new game plan before you've had time to adapt to the first one.

Okay. There's a fighter pilot model that I've been really intrigued by called OODA loop. I don't know if you're familiar with it. O-O A observe, orientate, decide, act OODA. Right. And so that's in some ways what you just described. Now to be able to do that, to observe and orientate, you've got to be really attuned to the present moment variables. You've got to see it, feel it. I've heard, I've heard other sports. That's where i was trying to think where i heard oodle loop before and it was another sports like calling yeah yeah so i learned it from it was somebody on the podcast but it was a relatively popular book that that highlighted

it not too long ago yeah so it's i think it's interesting but that's what you just described yeah yeah okay so then so then cool acronym because I'm not military, but yeah. They do love acronyms. React and re-react. React and re-react. Yeah. Yeah. So a continual response loop where, you know, just like a real flow that takes place.

It's like Anderson Silva, you know. I don't think he's super athletic. I think his ability to judge space and time and distance is just better than most people's. You know, his ability to stay, a guy like Floyd Mayweather too, his ability to stay just outside your punch. When I would think he's almost in range and to stay there, to know how to discipline and stay there. A guy like Daniel Cormier, not the greatest physical athlete in the world, but he's already taking your back and taking your hip

and switched away from whatever you were defending and taking you down before you can react to the second thing he did. He's on the third thing. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery

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And when your day demands clarity and energy and presence, the way you prepare for it matters. If you're looking for high-quality personal care products that elevate your routine without complicating it, I'd love for you to check them out. Head to calderalab.com slash finding mastery and use the code finding mastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash finding mastery. When you think of extraordinary athletes, how do you think about technical skill? How do you think about cognitive skill, emotional skill, mental skill? You can lump all of those together if you want outside of the

physical technical skill, the anthropomorphic, like how do you value them? And what do you think the important sub components are for each one? So we have done it similar to what you're saying. We've done it more physiological-based. And then I would almost call it dumb IQ. Like when I run a fighter through an evaluation, I have them show me every takedown. Show me every takedown defense. Show me at least that you know it.

And I know fighting IQ. Yeah. Just like I know this. I know the moves. I know how to respond to a jab. I know the ways to slip a punch, et cetera. So at first I want to see that. But I can do that. I'm actually really good at that. But you know what? I don't have the time the timing the technique the years of practice to to do it i just know the name of everything it's almost like a good football coach good football coach knows every route he might know a route better than his receiver but receiver is able to physically do it to react to that defender and decide he needs to be half a yard more shallow than he's supposed to be, and he reacts accordingly. Right? Yeah, for sure. I mean, that's what our model is built off of.

The mental component, again, it's one of the reasons why I'm here, very hard to, you know, I've never seen anybody great crumble under pressure ever. They wouldn't be great if they did, but I've seen people that I thought had the potential to just freeze up, not want to do it, start throwing up in the locker room and smelling. Wow. This is, you know? Yeah. I, you know what I see, I'd love to hear your take on it. So if you think about this as a model, choking, micro choking, performing, thriving, and then dissolving pressure. So there's choking and micro choking is what we're terrified. So a choke is that, what is that?

A full choke is like, so choking off access to your craft. Like you can't access anything significant that you've trained. And then micro choking is like, it's just hard. Like you can't access anything significant that you've trained. And then micro choking is like it's just hard. There's a lot of tension in what you're doing. Performing, like you're getting it by. It's okay. It's not your best.

Then you can get into that thriving zone where you're doing pretty damn well. And then the dissolving pressure is like that rare space. And dissolving pressure happens when people are able to let go of the future the past all that stuff and completely be absorbed in now because there's no extra time and space and so in your model like where have you seen most performers out of those stages if you could just entertain those stages i mean it was the set what was the the to last? Choking, micro-choking? No, no. Thriving? Thriving. Most thrive?

Most thrive. Most don't dissolve pressure? No. Have you had moments in your life where you dissolved pressure or fighting? I don't know, honestly. And I'm trying to be honest with you. I don't know that I have. I don't know that I've ever, whatever the, you know, I've been in the zone in in practice but i've never had it in a fight

like that like everything where everything's clicking this can't can't miss what got in the way so it's so hard the was it maybe the quality of opponent in the gym maybe i was fighting somebody that wasn't that good so everything i did worked and then i started became got this hyper confidence and i started trying new things and those started working whereas in the fight you're tight because if you make a mistake it is over for me anyway you know um how many mistakes would you make in a fight because it's certainly an it's an event of consequence sometimes 30 or 40 right so it's not you're making mistakes but how yeah there's the it's the one mistake it's the one that catches you they don't see that's it right yeah okay so then you're making mistakes as you go and then as you're making mistakes how do you recover from them

can you take me back to an event that you can think about a mistake you made and maybe no one noticed it doesn't mean like you knew it yeah a mistake you know you you let yourself maybe let's say i was a fighting ireland uh mistake i came forward hard and heavy real hard on my front foot. Gave him an easy single, got taken down. Second I hit the floor, though, I knew I messed up and I fired up like a damn, you know, boom, turned my back. I even got hit a couple times on the way up, but shot right back up. Okay.

So what is the skill set or the mechanism better is a better statement for you, this mechanism to let go of that mistake? I think this is something we're good at in MMA, if you're good at MMA, because there's a lot of transition. There's a lot of clinch. You hit the fence, you hit the ground. And if you don't thrive in that transitional stage, then you're not going to do well. And that's when good wrestlers sometimes have trouble. Good kickboxers have trouble transitionally. It's a huge transitional game.

For sure it is. Some of the most beautiful, like there was an event down here in L.A. probably around 2002. And do you remember the name Rico Ciparelli? Oh, yeah. Yeah, you know Rico. Oh, we talked about this before. So he was my first exposure

into MMA and cage fighting. And he hosted an event that was everything but striking. Marcelo Garcia, like those types of folks came out and there was no striking. Who's the other fellow? Who's one of the first Hall of Fame guys in UFC?

Hoyce. No, it called? Hoyce. No, it wasn't Hoyce. Dan. No, it was Dan. Dan was there. But I'm blanking on his name right now. Keep going. Randy Couture.

Randy. Thank you. Yeah. And so these guys are rolling and the speed of like, it's like bang, bang, bang, transition, boom, boom. And it's like, it really is artistic. I mean, it's a beautiful art the marshals the martial art so my point about that is that so you are skilled people in your craft

are skilled at transitions and there is the event actually promotes that you need to stay on time because if you don't transition you'll get clipped yeah or in that case you're telling them just end up on the bottom stuck pinned in done yeah yeah in that case but in yours like if you get hit or or whatever it could be the end of the fight yes okay now so if you could this is a little bit like asking like a genie where do you you know how do you make the bottle do the thing or like a fairy like how do you actually get the pixie ducks to work? But like how did you get that transition thing to be skillful? I mean, repetition.

Just did it, did it again and again. Did it with fresh people, did it tired, did it fresh. You know, did it, did it, you know, in different ways. Every situation that I could think that would happen in the fight, I wanted to drill it a couple times, do it, walk through it. And again, just that progression, walk through it, walk through it slow, walk through it quicker, walk through it with some resistance, walk through it with full resistance, walk through it with full resistance from multiple partners. You know, like, oh, this guy's going to go hard. I'm going to beat him and do the next. And then, you know like this guy's gonna go so hard i'm gonna beat him and do the neck and then you know yeah that's a cool part of training you know i think most people will be surprised by that don't know kind of how you guys train is

that slow speed uh slow speed stuff that you do is really slow sometimes methodically slow i mean you better there's no benefit to doing something really fast wrong you know what do they call it um what learn i forget yeah i just read a book about this too well what describe it maybe it's uh what is it devoted Devoted practice or dedicated? Deliberate. Deliberate. Hey, that's the word. Yeah. Deliberate practice is a big deal. And being able to really be crisp with what you're doing. And that speed for accuracy thing gets in the way often for people.

Yeah. It's great. Jiu Jitsu guy. I forget his name. He said Jiu Jitsu grappling. It's a highway. highway if you go real fast it's hard to read the signs if you slow down you can read the signs real clear so you gotta make sure you can read all the signs if you're going too fast to read the signs you're just missing it you're just rolling you're not literally doing anything so i love that because what happens for people under pressure is everything speeds up. That's right. So even though you know what real time is or the proper time for that freeway, under pressure, things speed up. And that's a survival mechanism. So what I've noticed is exhaustion becomes way quicker than it should.

During pressure, stress, whatever. In a fight, in a competition situation i've never been in bad shape but i've never not gotten tired in the fight like tired god i remember watching you who stole the air yeah how quickly would that come for you in a fight quick quick you know i mean it depended on what was happening but usually pretty quick i remember watching you i think it was in the ufc show not in the in the house that you're in that fight was game changing yeah i can't i don't know how you did it maybe you don't and i know you've been asked ad nauseum like how you stood there toe- toe exhausted with another highly skilled human being.

And you guys were as pulped as you can imagine. Yeah. So that's funny. I was talking to somebody yesterday, a friend. I don't want to burn him out. Not a fighter guy who helps me do film study. We're doing film study and he's like, man, I don't know if that woman's going to come off the stool. She got her ass beat. Like, I don't even know why she's coming off the stool and i said man i don't even sound like a jerk but that's why you're not a fighter i'm coming off that stool if i'm her saying i want to punch that bitch in the face she just whooped my ass you know she just took me down and elbowed me in the face ad nauseum i want to get up and go punch her back. So, you know, you hit people, you get hit

by somebody, you rightfully get mad. The thing to do is hit them back. Cool. It's MMA. That's what you're supposed to do. What's the hardest part of, if you go back and deconstruct that fight, because that was gripping to me, was the pregame or pre-fight harder than the first couple seconds of the fight? No. Those were both easy for you? I was cruising, man. Yeah. I do remember before the fight, me and my trainer, you know,

because you cut weight and then regain weight and then the nerves. That was the stomach problems fight day. I remember, like, me and my coach, Adam Singer, passing a bottle of Pepto-Bismol back and forth until it was gone.'m being like oh man it's gone give it Adam you drank the rest of the Pepto-Bismol yeah so I just remember we were pretty amped up and then it was a cool tension breaker um another guy I don't want to burn him out but his coach starts screaming it's your time like just like and you, very small locker room. And we're all just looking at each other.

We started, like, laughing, giggling, like, it's your time. It's amazing what humor does. Like, what are you doing? Like, oh, my God. But, you know, they're so in the moment. They don't even get how outlandish it seems to everybody else in the locker room. So they laugh about that. What is your ideal fighting mindset there's about six or seven kind of you know ways that we talk about it

like what is how would you describe yours well you were you know i never had that uh desolation where the stress dissolves but you never had to dissolve no in practice you did though yeah which is i don't know was that like i would almost consider it more like being in the zone with the basket. That's what it is. The Michael Jordan. Oh, the basket's huge. How'd you do that? I don't know how I did it.

You know, ask great athletes how they just made that shot. I just shot the shot like I always shot. I don't know how I made that shot. Yeah. That is the challenge with talking to the best of the best of the best in any domain. That's why golf's so hard. It is hard to describe it. Think it, rethink it.

I think golf's a tough one. Those guys definitely need mental performance coaches. Do fighters? It just depends. So that's why I'm here. I don't know. I keep hearing people tell me it'd be a good idea. I think fighters need retirement plans more than they need. You know, they need retirement plans. They need to be, would get into battles with the British Navy, they'd jettison their life rafts.

So you either won or you went down with the ship. And that's a great way to think when you're a professional athlete in your 20s. But once you start getting to your 30s, yeah, there's going to be a life after fighting. There's going to be a next. And if you're pretending there isn't, you're really doing yourself a disservice. Because you ain't doing this after 38. And if you are doing it after 38, unless you're the amazing Daniel Cormier or Yoel Romero, you're not going to do it that well. There's a couple. And that's a problem with the guys like Randy Couture. Everybody I talk to thinks they're going to be Randy Couture,

thinks they're going to be Michael Bisping. Michael Bisping, I thought he was done five years ago. He's done now, but he came back after I thought he was done. His body was already given out, won the belt, defended the belt, had an amazing fight, made a ton of money when he fought GSP. He had that, but now everybody that i'm i've mentioned five or six guys that had that great second half i wasn't one of them my second half of my career which i thought i would have was me blowing my knee out and then re-blowing my knee out and never fighting you know i thought i got you know i got that i got

a little more in me yeah because i kind of went up and then I was like, Oh, come on the upswip. Oh, okay. Yeah. Are you, are you a fundamentally an optimist?

You think the future is going to work out? No idea. So, well, if there's two frames, it depends on what day you can catch me. Okay. More days than not.

More days than not. Yeah. I'm not going to let you slip out. Like more days than not. Do you believe the future is going to be epic or do you think that it's going to suck you see i'm i keep going so i must believe it's going to be pretty good even if you hear me say in a very realistic sense that you know world's ending we're destroying the environment you know my you know my you know we're raising a lazy you know whatever kids or you know but uh i don't know is that your worldview yeah we're blowing up the world oh it's absolutely and we're raising yeah we're raising kids that are not uh you know they're not self-sufficient

you have kids yeah i have a daughter six what kind of parenting advice do you have i don't know the one thing I've done well is I make her priority, spend a lot of time with her, do what she wants to do. And then I see how good my, it's a thing, you know, if you, until you're a parent, you don't realize how good your parents were. My parents hated sports. They took me to every practice acted like they cared went to my games acted like it was a big deal at the time i didn't care that they were there and not there as long as i'd ride to practice but now i realize i don't want to they didn't want to be doing that shit like yeah so they but they supported you yeah you're doing the same thing to your daughter

right you're gonna help her figure out what she wants or whatever okay what were you doing sport for early on like what was that beginnings of your mission it was it was fun i was you know you like things you're naturally good at i was naturally big i was decent at it and then again you get like oh now i have a social life and that was part of what attracted me and i hate it it. You hear this? We, you know, we had a game plan coming in and we had this and they're talking about their teams. There's no team in fighting. That's why I like it, man. It's just you and him. That's why wrestlers and boxers and, you know, karate, you know, taekwondo, they do well because it's really, it's just you.

I like that, right? Yeah. Rico set that frame up early on for us. Rico Ciparelli, back to him, as he said, listen, everything that we do with these athletes, when the cage door closes, they're by themselves with another skilled human. So everything we do,

we've got to make sure that they are completely primed and ready for that. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. What is he doing these days? Rico? days rico yeah yeah he's got a gym gym that sounds horrible i have a gym it's a horrible horrible line of work yeah he's got a gym down here that's what uh that's what a lot of ex-fighters do is run gyms what is what is your

mission right now in life yeah so i'm gonna be going to be a decent father, um, Boy Scout motto, leave, leave the world a little better than I found it, not make too much of a mess and not leave too much of a carbon footprint and try to make the sport of fighting better for the athlete and more profitable for the people that make this show possible. And do you have a philosophy or a word that is at the center of what's guiding you? There's a lot of ways to cut that cloth that you just described. Man, there's, yeah, there's, I mean, it's almost like I'm overwhelmed by different philosophies that I've adapted.

I think that that's true for most. It's's like i've i've thought a lot of things well just i've read the jacket covers of a lot of best-selling books and i think i should just start quoting them really what about what about bruce lee has he influenced you uh no but one of our uh company maxims the ufc is be water water yeah i know okay so but let's play with the code do you have a spiritual framework religion yeah sure yeah you know so higher power i'm down sure okay hope there's a high which is right which i will okay so deity based uh sure christian light christian light christian light okay so non-denominational, but practicing like you think that the Bible's got. We used to go to church a lot. I've read most of the Bible, word for word.

Why would you? I don't get you to be doing anything light. Why would you do Christian light? Because I am a demanding son of a bitch. And what does that mean? Well, it means I do not live like a Christ. I'm a good guy. I'm not a bad guy by today's standards.

But if you think about true Christians, and there are very few, you would not have a lot of assets. You would be giving everything you had to others. You would constantly be working towards the greater good of others. It's funny you bring that up. I really like me, man. You know, it's funny you bring that up. I really like me, man. You like you? Yeah, I like me and I like my little tribe.

And then gradually, yeah. But I'm less and less giving. That surprises me. Outside of my, look, so I give big here, here, and then as we get out to the world, I want to give less and less. But you're doing it by the decisions you make to have a low-carbon footprint. Yeah. It's not like you're giving big dollars. Well, no.

I mean, I'm giving. I gave the three most equitable years I had. I gave over 10% to charities and then another 10 or so to friends and family. 20%? Yeah. Did you have an agent? Yeah. Is that another?

I had an accountant. Well, no, no, no, no. So I didn't. Yeah, I'm a smart guy. I didn't have an agent ever for fighting. I had one for outside deals. For marketing and for businesses. Yeah, for, you know, show up and take the vitamin.

That's another problem I'll get into. You got all those superstar. Here's the problem. And this is going to be a little, obviously, on the side. But the problem is you got movie stars doing credit card commercials, which means that high-level professional athletes are doing the testosterone booster stuff like Bo Jackson and them, which means guys like me, retired pro fighters, end up doing used car ads, which I do.

So those guys are really, you know. They took your gig. When I was a kid, movie stars made movies. They didn't take credit card money. Come on, that's garbage. It's special. They are really, they're ruining it for everybody. Have you been on a TV show or not the fighter show, garbage is special that they are really they're ruining they're ruining for everybody have you

been on a tv show or not not the fighter show but like have you been on movies or tv uh series uh no your personality i've been on tv and stuff i'm better unscripted than scripted okay for sure all right all right good so go back to philosophy well the thing we did with like the evil that's a perfect platform for me i get on i'm I'm hot for five minutes, go home. Did you have fun at that? Yeah, yeah, sure. You know, you see more than I had fun. I felt like I did a good job because by the time I got up there, they were, they were

like struggling for life and things to say. What are you saying? I wore them out. And I wore them out. Yeah. Yeah. So boring. But now it was a good interject interjection of energy plan talking about,

you know, dispersing load all over people and just greatness dispersing load all over. That's what you talked about. Yeah. How do you, you just said something that I think is really interesting that you evaluated yourself to say, I did a good job. How do you do that? How do you evaluate your skill, your performance? Um, it's not, yeah, it's not, uh, it's not as if I would, I would want like a boss. I would, if I did this for an employee of mine, it would not be acceptable, but you, I mean, the way you do it to yourself. Okay. Yeah. No worries. Cause there's not like the criteria is like, did you make people laugh? Were you entertaining? Did you say the words you meant to say? You know, I did all those things.

And then how'd you do it for fighting? After, let's say after practice, was it a good practice, bad practice? Yeah. Well, more technical. More technical. More technical. So I found that little space I was looking for. I was able to drop my weight or hips here and there.

After the second minute of the fight, your knees are straight, so you know you can't react. What are you doing? You're not tired. Get your hands up. You let them walk you right into the fence. And I'm brutal. When athletes come to me and say,

what do you think about this fight? I say, look, man, I'm going to tell you everything. Do you want to hear this? So when you coach other people, you ask for permission. I don't, I don't, I don't do it unless somebody asks me specifically. You're making sure. Like, all right, if you want me to tell you, I'm going to tell you exactly. And then if I do it too, I'm going to, I'm going to watch the fight a couple of times. I'm going to know what they were doing. If they were dealing with ailments going into that. Are you more self-critical or self-supportive?

Definitely self-critical. And is that self-critical? Do you cut yourself, or is it more of an accurate approach to the technique? I think it's probably more accurate. Okay, so it's not like, God, I suck. Like, what is wrong with me? Jesus, I'm never going this out to do that okay so it's more it's trying not to let it devolve into that right yeah how do you do that because that that is a challenge for a lot of people they over personalize the experience yeah and make it about them rather than the craft

you know i you know i did x instead of y all right i should have done y continue watch the film i you know uh i mean i i critique myself at disneyland like you should get on that line you saw there were there were old people in this line you knew they'd be slow you should have gotten that line even though there were more people that were quicker this person got 17 kids you know you're funny bro it is yeah it's not funny what's going on in here i was wondering if that's like don't stop running do you like being with yourself like i don't want to sound like a jerk but like you know no and i know what you mean yeah comes and goes like if you were saying that out loud to me all the time i'll be like jesus man be quiet

yeah yeah right i'd be like give me a break bro yeah yeah yeah oh yeah but i think that that is true for so many of us that we have this inner dialogue that we would never, never. There's like a 50, 60 year old Jewish comedian in the back of my head that won't shut up. I can only imagine what you're thinking about this conversation right now. All right. So that, all that being said, like, I i want to i want to entertain that thing that that part of the conversation you said i'm not sure about mindset like where it fits but i also want to like use some of this time you know i think it's a that's a call back to the beginning yeah it is yeah you know look at look at short-term memory at play what what are some questions you have about psychology and not that i'm the custodian for psychology but like us when you dealt with

athlete when you deal with athletes what are um and don't say those things on the board because i read that a lot it doesn't make any sense to me none of it makes sense it's the whiteboard the whiteboard of like whiteboard creativity you can't even read half of it, so it's in code. No. Like, what is important mentally? So I know, you know, I've told you my mental philosophy. I know what's important to me. I know what I want an athlete to be thinking about. Not an athlete. I know what I want a fighter to be thinking before they go into a fight.

Which is, I don't know that. What is it? What do you want them to be thinking? Just, again, the details, but not overanalyzing. Okay. You know, don't, I guess, you know, you want to be not concerned about your mom. I hate when I hear people say, I had to do it. I saw my wife and daughter in the first row.

That sounds like distraction, man. You should have been thinking about where the guy's hips were, you know? You should have been thinking about that. You should have been thinking about where the guy's hips were. You know, you should have been thinking about that. You should have been. And then, but there's a fine line between thinking about those details and then just letting it flow like it flows every day before practice. So what I do is I have fighters do. So he's a great guy. He said, routine, habits and routine make the extraordinary ordinary.

It's in a book called Scout Fight by Forrest Griffin. It's really amazing. You really got to check it out. Plug, plug, plug, plug. Sold out. I quit making money on that book a long time ago. Oh, you did? Okay. No, but so it's the Hoosiers model, right?

So I have a fighter walking the octagon. Oh, is it 30 by 30? Five foot six inches, just like the one we practice in. What's the same thing that's made out of every time? Yeah, you're fighting a bad dude. You're not usually doing that. Yeah, there's going to be people out here, but the temperature is going to be relatively the same. Ring size is the same.

Everything is the same. Still four steps up to the cage. When he measures the same. Ring size is the same. Everything is the same. Still four steps up to the cage. When he measures the basket. And then, you know, so it's just you've done this before. You do the same warm-up routine before you spar, before every practice. Before the fight, we do the same warm-up routine with the same music in the same small space because you're always going to have a freaking small space to warm up in. Something I'm working on.

We would like to have more mat space for athletes to warm up in something i'm working on uh we would like to have more mass space for athletes to to warm up on for their fight in the ready room yeah yeah it's awful back there yeah right so yeah yeah two three fighters back there and too many hang well that's because these are not these were not built for fights they're built for hockey and basketball and whatever so um you know a lot of times I'll end up having guys warm up in a hallway. So then on the fight night, we can do like a little movement drills down in the hallway on concrete. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Okay. So if there's two approaches before we move across this too quickly, there's two approaches. When we think about world championships or, or big games,

if you will treat it like it's like the Olympics, like treat it like it's the craziest show on earth. And there's going to be more media, more pressure, more, this more, more, if you will, treat it like it's the, like the Olympics, like treat it like it's the craziest show on earth. And there's going to be more media, more pressure, more, this more, more, more, more. And it's the craziest show on us. So like, get ready for it and prepare for it that way. And then the other model is hold on. They're not changing the size of the pool. Your lane is still your distance. The water temperature is about the same. You're familiar with it. It's indoors or it's outdoors. You've done it a million times, fill in the blanks. And so it is the same. So let's treat it the same. The mechanics of it are the same. I should say, which if you were training an athlete to go to the Olympics, which approach would you take? I wouldn't try and

bullshit them and say, it's going to be the same. And so it's going to be totally different right up until the point when a cage door shuts. And then it actually is going to be the same. Exactly the same. It's going to be the same. As soon as you get in there, everything before and after are going to be different, but the actual important part is really going to be the same. Yeah, there you go. Does that make sense? Yeah. And that's almost the exact model that I work from. So part of the model is that there's no such thing as a big moment. And that's something that I've found to be incredibly valuable for myself and then incredibly valuable for others. ESPN will say differently. Good thing about, well, they're trying to, they're trying to

engage an audience. It's a whole different story. That's the defining moment of his career. Hold on. It's another moment. That's what I do understand. That's right. You understand that now, like, Hey, they're, they got to sell a product, man. They got to engage people. They got to make people put their phones down and watch. So it is a big moment to them. And it might even be the moment where you look back and say, shit, things weren't right or wrong for me there. But you can always correct that.

That's right. You're still awake and alive and you can still correct it and win yeah that's cool that's cool thing about fighting so you're agreeing that there's i don't want to pin you on it if you don't but you're lined up with that thought that there's no such thing as a big moment there's this moment and it's the most important moment you have and our job as humans is to be in this one yeah there's no there's big moments but when they're over there's over and they're gone and there's no point looking looking back at them. Okay. So is the moment back at them in a week on the tape, but right now, so now the biggest moment is, all right, you got clipped.

How do you tie the guy's hands up? How do you work your way to the fence and get back up? How do you reverse this position? New big moment. Okay. Right. That's what I think we're saying. The same thing maybe is that those moments are all important but the moment where you're dropping your hips and and you're slipping a punch that's equally as important as the moment where you're in the ready room and you're thinking about like how to be ready or you're just getting warmed up in whatever ways like all of those moments are equally as important some have finite finite consequences. So when I would corner fighters, I would usually go, hey, look,

remember all that stuff we worked on? Throw that shit out. New plan. Here's what I want you to do. I want you to hit him in the face more than he hits you. What do you think? And they look at you.

It's just like, all right, okay, perfect. Easy. Let's do something. Let's fight. Who said it? Everyone has a plan, all right, okay, perfect. Easy. Let's do something. Let's fight. Who said it? Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face. Mike Tyson.

Was that Tyson? A famous guy said, Mike Tyson once said, everybody's got a plan until they get hit in the mouth. My plan is to go out, get hit in the mouth, and figure it out from there. Was that more your model? That was my model. Was that your response? Yeah, that was my, yeah. Okay, so that actually is a, like, let's talk about a psychological framework.

That model that you have is that I'll figure things out. Yeah. So that would be a philosophy. Remember we were talking about philosophy? Yeah, I'll figure things out through 20 hours a week of dedicated practice for the last 12 weeks. That's right. I'm not going to show up in a sloppy way. Yeah.

So your model is you figure things out. Yeah. And then the other thing I like to tell people is, Hey, look, you've done everything in your power to be prepared for this moment. You know, when you go in there that you will do everything you can do to win and that you will not quit. There's nothing else that matters. You're ready for the moment. You did the work. You're ready to see it through.

Nothing else that matters. How do you define failure? I don't know, man. That's a tough one. I mean, I don't know. I've never really come that close to it. So I guess I'm not familiar with failure. I'm just winning my whole life. I'm'm like fucking uh what's his name the uh coked up actor you know failure is a loss man you did something wrong i mean your goal is never to lose so you failed what if you give it everything you don't stop you stay committed to the game plan you lost but you didn't fail yourself well that's what i'm that's what i'm trying to sort out like can you separate those two a loss and failure yeah yes failure is a loss where you you quit on yourself at some point and then so you could lose the match or the fight or the day

the competition or practice because but but also give it everything. It's just like a grade one failure, like a mild failure. Because, you know, you were just outmatched. Yeah, that's cool. That's a great one. So there's shades of it. I don't know. I'm just thinking like sharing ACLs.

Let's get a grade two ACL sprain. That was a grade two failure. You just didn't want to be there. Shades of success too? Yeah. I won fights that I wasn't overly thrilled with. I'm like, oh, you felt like shit, or you could have put that guy away, and you didn't ever, you know.

Yeah, there's definitely wins that I'm very unhappy with. There's a moment in my little fighting career that I remember, and I would have lost the fight anyway. It didn't matter. Mr. Jeremy Horn shot in. He had me on a double leg. I was a bigger, stronger guy than him. It was in Denver, though.

And I thought to myself in like one iota of a second, being in guard wouldn't be so bad. And I didn't fight the takedown. And I sat in guard,'t be so bad and i didn't fight the takedown and i sat in guard and nothing happened i just sat in guard for 20 or 30 seconds held this you know didn't really get hit much and then i just finally got up when i got my breather and i remember that like man you just you just you kind of let that happen for us you knew you were like you were making deals with yourself you're so my my my another thing too is

uh people like i'm tired i can't i can't move yeah of course you are yeah yeah of course you're tired forget about that let's let's concentrate on other things like to me you're you're you've lost the second you think you're tired or in trouble you know know, as I might make sense. Oh my God. If you're already listening and going, yeah, because that when we're going back to the, if you're already thinking, Oh God, I've blown it. That's right. You've blown it. You've already blown it. Well, that's actually the blowing it. Yeah. But then how quickly can you reorientate and get back to now? That's the skill. That's's the mental skill hopefully you have a round and a good corner man like i always did like hey all right that's over did you corner a bunch uh i

yeah i cornered some people but i had really good people cornering me as well okay yeah all right so as we're around thank you for your time like i know that like pleasure yeah i've enjoyed it like your storytelling your dry humor you know the self-deprecating humor like it's all fun for me yeah but the genius that you have in there i don't know if i'm doing us justice because i really i'm captivated by what you've done and how you've done it and so part of that genius is I'm trying to understand your framework. And I don't think that I understand what scares you. And you said everything scares you, but I don't think I really understand. It's, it's kind of looking bad in front of people, but you don't care that much. It's not getting hit in the face. It's not breaking a jaw, bone and leg. Maybe it is all

those things. I can't quite understand what fear looks and feels like to you. That's a good question. Shame, shame. That's a big thing. Like when you, you know, when you behave inappropriately in a situation, when you, you know, physically grab people that I shouldn't have, I overreacted, I overreact when I'm driving, you know i physically grab people that i shouldn't know if i overreacted overreact when i'm driving you know that i don't know if that scares me but that's things i feel the worst about you know

so i'm you know chasing a guy on the freeway trying to whatever you know making literally making everyone unsafe doing the exact opposite of my goal in life of making things better of stopping when people are broken down i'm you know just in that 20 seconds where you just want to kill some dude for whatever that's that's what i that's one of the things i feel the worst about how often does this happen i mean more than it should yeah okay so once a month maybe seriously yeah maybe less. I'm real cool until I'm not. Do you have a short fuse? No. I got a long one.

Long one? Okay. It's just like, hey, my stepdad, we got in a fight once. It was awesome. For a week, maybe a year. He's like, hey, don't use my towel. Don't use my towel. Don't use my towel. So I would get up, shower before him, use his towel every morning,

put his wet towel back every morning. I'm like, fucking force. Fucking use my towel. One day he comes into the kitchen. I'm making my breakfast. But he's like holding like a hand rag in front of him. And like goes to hit me or something. Like we tussled and like pushed him on the counter.

You know what? Never use this fucking towel again. That's for for sure never use that man's towel again that's kind of like you keep pushing you keep pushing the bad thing about is though sometimes two or three or four things happen where people are you know people do i'm i'm pretty conscious to be on time, to be prompt, to just act in the way you're supposed to act or say, hey, I realize. I'm sorry, whatever. When people don't, when people just have poor etiquette or stand in the middle of something when obviously this is a thoroughfare, it upsets me. So this could happen three or four times. And then the fifth thing, I'm like like, Hey man, what the, yeah.

Okay. So you have high social awareness, but there's some things that, right. Right. But it'll just, it'll piss you off. I do have high social awareness.

You do. Yeah. And did that come from mom or dad? No, that comes from watching ants, man. Everybody's got a fucking role, you know,

you're supposed to do what you're supposed to do. Otherwise we're never going to get this colony built. You walk this side of the road this is what you do you don't stop in the middle of the hallway to check your cell phone you don't do that i don't you know where i do well i do but you're but you grew up being a fighter i do well in germany you do well in germany germany on earth structure get this do this yeah structure yeah if you're an artist would you Germany. Germany, man. Earth. Structure. Get this. Do this. Yeah. Structure. Yeah. If you were an artist, would you have more straight lines than messy lines? Did you color inside the lines? I mean, I would try, but anything with art, man, you can't.

I'm the worst. Do you build? No. No. Nope. When you write, is it neat? No. No.

Sloppy? Yes. It is. Yeah. But when I type, I make three or four revisions. Even before I send an email because I'm so bad. Are you a perfectionist? No.

No, no, no. I'm a get-it-done-ist. Get-it-done-ist? Get-it-done-ist. Okay. So it can be sloppy and ugly. It can be to an extent, right? Right.

Yeah. But, I mean, it's an email. People are going to see it. Somebody important might see it. You have to make itible no i i totally get that part of your but it's not like i'm not looking to put a work of art out yeah i get that for you so would you have considered yourself an artist as a fighter or get it done now yeah definitely not an artist i've seen artists i watch artists all the time and i can never do that. You know, people that this is, you know, like Israel, a little Sanji's guy right now.

He, you can tell he's just so in the moment he's like doing shit. And you're like, I, you know, I asked him, I was like, do you, he's like, ah, threw it like twice on the bag. I just felt it. Sure. You're amazing. Amazing. I hate you.

Okay. Back to psychology for just a minute and then we'll wrap this. And I have one, one kind of obvious question I want to ask you about mastery. But so. Mastery. Yeah. The podcast. Yeah.

The name of that thing is that, you know, why psychology? There's only three things as humans we can train. Craft, body and mind. That's it. And you seem really skilled on the mind like i'm listening to your frameworks i'm going yep like oh yep yep wow okay good i've thought a lot yeah yeah like it's in there for you and and you've been had awareness that you were talking about back in the ready room that you want to be thinking about technique well that's actually what we would consider the lowest productive thinking but it's better the lowest of the positive right yes right but it's still better than like oh my gosh oh my gosh what's you know

oh my ankle so what would be the best uh feel is kind of the right the the the target that we're looking for like a vibe and a feel where we've turned down the volume of our thoughts and we're more feeling and vibing like that was that's what we're targeting what's that look like um it what it looks like from the outside if i'm looking at somebody else is you can see in their eyes like an engagement but there's also like this head bob there's just a vibe about them where you're like okay they're not they're not thinking much they're feeling and it feels really good to be them prior to quote unquote this big moment and so that's that's the highest form but so if you think about the hierarchy of thoughts there's the technical thoughts are cool like okay right i'm gonna be

fast on this or strategy thoughts like i'm gonna do to do this, that, and the other, but it's on the positive, but it's on the lower side. It's more tactical than technical. Yeah. And, but both of those work because they're not negative. They're not finding the problems. They're not finding all the statements that support doubt or frustration or worry. It's none of that junk. So as you go up, there's, uh, thoughts of confidence. Like, okay, I got this. Let's go. This is what I'm built for. I do difficult things. I love challenge.

Let's roll. Like that type of swag confidence stuff is a level up. And then the highest level, like I was talking about, is like more of an optimistic frame built with the confidence, those two. And then the highest is vibe. So there's technical, tactical. Then there's confidence and optimism, swag type of stuff is I'm bundling all those together. And then the highest is when the, the volume of thoughts decrease and it's more vibe. Yeah.

Yeah. So you can train that. And that's, that's, that's when you ask the golfer that just made the incredible shot. What were you thinking? I don't know. I don't know. That's right now the work is to figure out how to prime myself to be in that i don't know state more often and that's what mental training is about if perchance someone is listening to this they need to

understand that when we're talking about these mental things of thinking feeling not thinking this is post years of hours a week of practice this is to get to the point where you can feel something you have to have fought for years or be a savant you know this is not like a thing that um you know what i'm gonna get the feels and go play some golf tomorrow that's not gonna work forget about it like that that's a hack weekend whatever yeah and we're talking you and i are talking about the space after expertise yeah right like expertise i have technical mastery that's right yeah but the space after that right okay so then so if we can only train those three things mind mind craft and body we know how to train the body pretty well from an observable, measurable,

you know, and there's, I don't know, seven, eight different guiding philosophies right now on physical training. Technical training is the art from your coach, you know, the lineage that he or she comes from. Still not as detailed and feelable as I'd like. That's right. And then it seems to vary widely from individual to individual and culturally like the Chinese, the Russians, I watched them work out and oh my God, they do the same thing again. I would go mad if I tried to train like them. There is a cultural sensitivity to technical training. Yeah. Right. And like I was saying, there's a lineage, there's an, there's an approach that fits that person and their culture, and it might not be a fit for you. So there's different philosophical ways to train technique.

And then on the mental side, it really is a preparation for randomness. What do you mean? So the world is unpredictable. It's an unpredictable, unfolding unknown. So that's how now unfolds. the world is unpredictable. It's an unpredictable, unfolding unknown. So that's how now unfolds. We want to be good as humans at trying to predict what's going to happen. And we can get relatively, you know, in some things,

like we have some tendencies that we can observe in other people. But for the most part, the mental preparation, the mental work is preparing ourselves for the unfolding, unpredictable, unknown, so we can adjust and adapt to add our highest skill set. And this is why it's better to be free and open and the two more positive things you said, the swagger type, as opposed to technically trying to think through what's going to happen in the fight. That's right. I'll give you two things real quick that I, one that I did and one that I think would be cool to do. People would come to me, it's also in my book, people would come to me with lack of confidence, yada yada. So I want you to take a hot bath. I want you to think about every negative thing that's going to happen. You get knocked the fuck out in front of your mother. Your girlfriend's going to dump you because she's so embarrassed. You're probably going to lose a fucking eye. It's going to be bad.

You're going to get hurt. And then I want you to open the water. Let the hot water just drain down. And just all those negative thoughts, they go down. And I want you to take a cold shower. And after that cold shower, you've basically sealed yourself from the bad thoughts. So you're not allowing that shit to come into your head anymore. It had its place.

And I'm also against vocalizing, I'm tired. My arm hurts. I don't like, hey, no, no, no, no. You're fine. You got to be fine for 15 to 25 minutes. That's all we're asking here. You're fine. So I'm against fine for 15 to 25 minutes. That's all we're asking here. You're fine.

So I'm against actually the vocalizing of fear and pain. Let it, you know, drift down. Boom. The other one, I've never done this, but it seemed cool, would be to write down what you're afraid of and then burn it. Sure. But you're always in the hotel room the night before. You've always got a bathtub. You don't always have it. Don't act like you haven't burned things down before.

No. Just that laziness. Like, get a lighter bathtub you don't don't act like you haven't burned things down before no just that laziness like a good lighter i don't smoke so the first one smokes anymore they just vape i can't even get fire so the first experience that you described is actually relatively well researched not that with the water but the idea of catastrophizing and exploring the worst and face it down yeah so literally face it't try to pretend, but face that fear and those real doubts down. And so that's a real thing. The last one that you talked about writing it. That's dime store psychology right there. Yeah, but my point is that you were saying, I'm not sure where psychology kind of fits

and I'm trying to sort it out. It's mindset. But you're good at it. Yeah. Right? And it's like, hey, look hey look man i know fights are hard but i've done the work man i've been doing the work for a long time psychology yeah the say the saying i've done the work and i'm prepared to deal with it success and failure i'm prepared to adapt

and adjust i'm not gonna quit that's a principle that's guiding you yeah but that's the mental work that's the mindset that's a mindset that's the mindset i need you know but how do you help people using good science and real hardened approaches develop a mindset a mindset for them that works for them that's right that's exactly it's not transferable i know that much you know well the statement might be transferable because one of i think one of the most powerful statements humans can make to themselves is the statement that I can do difficult things. Yeah. I think it's really powerful.

If you really want to explore the potential that you have dormant, well, you got to go through some difficult times. So, but you've got to really believe that that is the case. Yeah. So I remember a real, a great thing for me. I was going into a fight. A guy named Jay Heron. He's an actor now.

He, you know, he'd been there with me. That's, that's another thing too. Been with me for years, beating each other up, yada, yada. And he's just like, you broke your foot. You kept training. Nobody would have done that you did this nobody works harder and he kept like using actual instances of positive things that had happened in practice that i'd done that i'd overcome they were actually pretty hard to do and i was like

yeah you're right i did do all those things yeah so he was reminding you of like good self-talk but it was it was uh you know it was the most spontaneous thing that could ever happen. I've never in my life figured out how to package that for somebody. Well, he had to know you first. Yeah. Well, he, he had to spend a year with me. That's right. And he didn't know like Forrest broke a bone in his foot and he still came to practice

every day. We did something very similar to that with an Olympic team I work with is that we had people write down Epic moments in their life and then they shared it with other teammates and we talked about it out loud like these are the epic moments these are the things we did and then we would practice reminding people of that during practice you know and but we did it in a way where it was like shit talking it's like so let's say let's say that you scored three in a row or you did you know whatever you knock someone out in two seconds or i don't know i'm making something up for you but let's say you score three in a row from behind the the three-point line and so we talk shit say you can't get three in a row again what do you think like that that is you

you did that shit but you can't get that again so like making fun making like a little edge about it and so it brought in some of that competitive environment that's not how your guy did it but that's something that we found to be really valuable because it was like you know you know me and it was all in jest yeah yeah so anyways the the things that you can train mentally from good science and good hardened experiences being in the trenches is you can train confidence you can train your ability to be calm you can train your ability to be calm. You can train your ability to adjust quickly. You can be hardened on a philosophy that is flexible and durable. You can add all the recovery protocols

so that you wake up with that vibrance and zest for life on a continued basis. That's all trainable. You can train optimism, the fundamental belief that things are going to work out. And you can have strategies when you are anxious, when you are doubt doubtful when you don't have the inner stuff you can train the strategies on how to get back to it faster and that's really that's the science and the art of the mental game and i'm oversimplifying something that's very complicated you know it's invisible we can't see it other than body the other thing i figure a guy like you has to be good at is figuring out because this is something i haven't figured out figuring out what makes everybody tick it's hard what makes this guy or gal perform at their best what is

their you know what are the keys to their mental game you know because there's two parts it's what you say and there's what you do yeah and not all people are as honest as you are. Yeah. Well, to a fault. Yeah. I'm pretty well. Yeah. But yeah, I think, you know, you, you, I deal with athletes and I don't, I don't almost know what I'm looking for. You know, I don't almost know where, where should I be? You know, what, where do you push this person? Like what's going to make them thrive? I don't, you know, and I think part of that is you probably have to sit down with them,

talk to them for a couple hours. That's the psychology. Like that's it. Yeah. I've never done that. So I can't tell what makes these people tick. Yeah. Which is just knowing their framework.

Yeah. What are you driven by? What are you driven toward? Like, how are you ticking? You know? And so you've shared a lot with me today, but you haven't shared what the definition or characteristics of mastery are mastery oh yeah to me mastery can be and i don't know the actual definition but it can be a wide range of things you know there can be almost like different levels of mastery you know we are we saying mastery is only Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant,

what's the best basketball player in the world right now? LeBron James, possibly. Are those the only guys that were masters? Is that it? Or is it the top 20 people in the league? I think it's the top 20 people in the league. So I think if I was going to, you know, make up a criteria for mastery, the first would be the technical. Do you have a solid fundamental base and technique? Is

your technique overwhelmingly good? Do you have a tactically sound mind? Can you figure out where you need to fight someone to beat them? Can you figure out how to throw them off? Can you, uh, do you understand and I guess it would continue to intuition. Can you intuitively feel in that moment, if you need to cut the, cut the octagon off or create space, do, can you tell what's going to make them the most uncomfortable? So I guess, I guess mastery would be easier for me if I related to something I know a lot about, which is fighting. So to me, mastery is the technical, the tactical, the intuitive, and the ability to react to your opponent. If you can do all of those things, then you can master fighting. Nothing to it.

Nothing to it. We'll do that. That's awesome. We'll get you in the octagon tomorrow. No problems. No problems. We'll just throw it in there. Thank you for your time. nothing to it nothing to it we do that that's awesome we just shouldn't act on tomorrow no problem no problems we'll just throw it in there thank you for your time yeah yeah no but seriously what's the correct answer what is mastery well that's that's what this whole conversations with bright minds i don't like journeys i like destinations yeah so what's your definition of mastery yeah you know i'm I've got a thought and the guiding

thought right now, there's been a lot like what you just influenced. I'm nodding my head to it and I'm going, yep. Yep. I like it. Um, there's a theme that makes sense that it's, it is an adventure. It's a journey slash journey. It's not like a destination. You don't just arrive one day. I'm a master. Um, so there's that component to it currently mastering. Yes. Yeah. So there's that component to it. So you'd be currently mastering, yes. Yeah. But I'm cheating to say that I learned that from others because the purpose of this podcast or the title is called Finding Mastery. I think that that's what we are trying to do, not just from an academic conversational standpoint, but in life. And then there's another guiding thought, and I'm going to articulate this all in one sentence in a minute but the another guiding thought is that game recognizes game and so people that are masterful at craft that can recognize mastery in any domain so if you got it you can recognize it

in somebody else and i think that that's so that's like a slang street phrase that i learned in la like game recognizes game it's like okay got it and then um i think or as conor mcgregor said gods recognize other gods is that what he says they asked him if he believed in gods he says yeah of course they believe in me he did not say oh yeah so gods were gods recognize other gods so yeah yeah back to mastery i apologize yeah then there's a component about authentic expression you know like being true to yourself so having the command of technique tactics um that's the physical side and the mind side and then being able to go beyond just technical technician and adding the um your stamp of So for me, it's the authentic journey and the artistic expression.

So it's being you, know yourself and dress accordingly, as one of the ancient Stoics said, and then being able to do that artistically across any domain. And for me, that's what it looks like. It's funny, a little piece of information i caught there that i agree with because we always look to things we agree with uh the artistic expression so it'd be really hard to master something that you aren't passionate about because you're not going to be artistic you're not going to be expressionate you're not going to make it your own uh so that that and

that's what i tell young people you know find. Find something you enjoy doing that people will pay you money to do and do that thing. Because it's a long haul. Yeah. Right? To get to the place you and I are talking about, it takes years of dedicated, deliberate, nauseatingly focused effort. Yeah. And if you don't love it, you can get good. Never going to become artistically masterful, though.

Yeah. Thank you. So where do we find you? Where's your book? What's say the title again for me? My book's in thrift stores all around the country. Uh, no, is it out of print? No. Yeah. Yeah. It's not print anymore. Who knows? Uh, I'm sure it is. Um, yeah, I'm on, I'm on Twitter and Instagram. The usual Forrest Griffin. I'm rolling around the UFC Performance Institute, trying to make life better for everybody involved. That's awesome.

I'm driving around the road like a maniac. Awesome. Thank you for your time. Thank you. Thank you for your energy, brother. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you.

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