Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - From Chernobyl to World Champion | Oksana Masters

Episode Date: August 20, 2025

What if I told you that one of the most dominant athletes of our time began her life in unimaginable hardship - and then rewrote her story, chapter by chapter?This week, we revisit one of the most powerful conversations in the Finding Mastery vault with Oksana Masters; multi-sport Paralympic gold medalist and one of the most decorated Paralympic athletes in U.S. history (with 19 medals).Born in Ukraine with birth defects caused by radiation exposure from Chernobyl, abandoned to an orphanage, and later adopted in the U.S, Oksana’s journey is a masterclass in grit, resilience, and the relentless pursuit of agency. Her story is not only about becoming a world-class athlete - it’s also about reclaiming her narrative, finding freedom through adversity, and turning deep pain into fuel for thriving.What you’ll learn in this episode:How Oksana transformed unimaginable hardship into strength and purposeWhy reclaiming agency - even in the smallest ways - can change the trajectory of a lifeThe role joy and play can have as tools for survival in the darkest momentsHow she navigated trauma while striving for greatness on the world stageWhat resilience really looks like when challenge isn’t avoided, but embracedThis is a conversation about courage, hope, and an indomitable human spirit, an episode that will stay with you long after you’ve listened._______________________________________________Links & ResourcesSubscribe to our Youtube Channel for more conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and wellbeing: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine: findingmastery.com/morningmindset!Follow on YouTube, Instagram, LinkedIn, and XSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

I was born in Ukraine, and it wasn't until I got to America. I went to my first dentist, and they saw radiation in my teeth. And that's when they were like, this is most likely Chernobyl that caused all this. What if I told you that one of the most dominant athletes of our time began her life in unimaginable hardship? And then rewrote her story chapter by chapter. Society determines people with disabilities. I'm invisible.

My story's been written for me as a girl with a disability, as an orphan, as a female in sports. I wanted to rewrite my own story. Welcome back. Welcome to the Finding Mastery podcast, where we dive into the minds of the world's greatest thinkers and doers. I'm your host, Dr. Michael Jerva, by trade and training a high-performance psychologist.

Now, the idea behind these conversations is simple, to sit with the extraordinaire's, to really learn how they work from the inside out. And today, we're doing just that by bringing back another unforgettable conversation from the Finding Mastery Vault with the incredible Oksana Masters. When you think of an athlete like Serena Williams,

or Michael Jordan. The first thing that pops into 90% of people's minds is what they've achieved and the greatest of all time. But when you think of a Paralympian, oh, well, what happened to your body? Where did you come from? Where you come from, it's important.

It's shaped you. But it's not your identity of who you are. Oksana is a multi-sport Paralympic gold medalist. One of the most decorated Paralympians in U.S. history. Oksana's journey, it's a master class in what it means to reclaim agency in a life that offered her none. I want to give a disclaimer here. This episode deals with some pretty heavy subjects around abuse and they could be triggering

for you. I'm encouraging you now to use your best judgment. I personally found this conversation to be incredibly meaningful and wonderfully healing. It's going to sound so weird, but like I'm so thankful for what I experienced and what I went through because I now know nothing's going to get as bad as that, first of all. And now what I'm doing here, I'm in complete control and can have the option to choose how I want to approach this. We're re-releasing this episode now because her message about how she worked with her experiences to live with a sense of freedom and power.

It feels just as relevant, if not more so, today. So with that, let's jump right into this week's conversation from the Finding Mastery Vault with Oksana Masters. Oaxana, I am so excited to sit with you and have this conversation. I read your book, and I couldn't put it down. it was it was overwhelming in parts and inspiring in equal ways and I'm just I'm in awe on how you've navigated your life and you are literally to me a living emblem of how to deal with shit like in some cases like your mom is an absolute badass you are badass, like how you've organized your inner life is incredible. The deep insight you have

on how to deal with, I don't want to, let's call it what it is. Like for me, it's dark. Like some of the human behaviors that you've been through have been dark. And, you know, we all have our own unique, dark parts of our life, our own scars, our own battle wounds. And you have written a story that's remarkable. And you've faced some incredible things and then squared up with them and you also have this sense of peace in your life. You're kick-ass athlete and a complete human in the sense that you're amazing. And so I just want to start by saying that. So thank you. Thank you. First of all, you're way too kind. I'm way too kind. I'm just a person. Just a girl with no legs, really. But thank you so so much. I'm so excited. I'm just a girl with no legs.

Yeah, sometimes I'm 5'8, sometimes four foot, sometimes just curl up in a ball. You are too funny. Okay. What do I need to know about you to understand you? Oh, man. I honestly, I don't know. I'm a really boring person, to be honest. There's really, I think I'm one of those people.

I think a lot of people are like, oh, you're so bubbly, you're so positive. And I was never just right away. way always positive and bubbly and loved myself and had this outlook in life. And I found just like how to find laugh at myself and make fun and light of situations when I'm uncomfortable. So I just laugh for no reason sometimes. So that there's like this idea of like equal opposites in some respect. Like as somebody who really wants to soar in life, right? There's some sort a counterbalance to having some depth, right? There's for people that understand the light,

they also need to understand the dark. And so you embody the light, but you've also faced down and worked with the dark. So one of the things I'm really intrigued by is, do you resonate with PTSD? Well, I guess like I, it's weird, it's like a label. Like, I didn't know that's what it is, but I guess in like scientific terms, like, yes,

I do have PTSD and to, this day. Like, I'm something like loud noises and there's certain smells and certain just certain things. Like, I'm a super hypervigilant person too and there's 30 things that can be happening in a room and I'm hearing each one individually and it makes my body just stress, so stressful and so draining to try and like tell my body constantly of you recognize these things and the sounds and you're fine. But yeah, I mean, I do. I hear, when I hear you say this, like, listen, I'm not about trying to get labeled. And which I really appreciate.

And then on the other side, I hear you saying, yeah, it's not like it was a thing last year that I'm now done with, or it's not a thing that I kind of struggled a couple years after some of my early trauma. You're saying, yeah, no, I still have a hypervigilance. And by the way, that is really one of the guiding functions of PTSD. It's not, it's a terrible name for a lot of reasons. Oh, really? I didn't know that.

Yeah. So how do you manage that? How do you deal with that part of hypervigilance? Because it's exhausting. It is. And my fiance hates going to a movie with me because, oh my gosh, I can hear every crunch of every person's popcorn and sneeze and everything. I'm like, looking back and I'm like, he's like, just stop it, just stop it.

And like, every whispered. Honestly, for me, it's my one time that I don't have any of that except sometimes who, Sometimes I do when I'm extremely zoned out is in that moment of racing and my mind just shuts off and I go to one specific. I do this weird thing I've always done and I count to 10 over and over and over. And people are like, why don't you count to 100? It's a lot more going on. I don't know. I've always counted whatever I do just like count to 10.

And I don't know why I started doing that and when I started doing that. But from where I can remember and when I'm counting, the way. weird thing is like my mind subconsciously is like processing their different going into memories and stuff and just that's the moment where I don't have any of that stressful anxiety until there's just like a random like bird or something or like something that would be that comes by and when I'm on the bike and I'm like, oh my God, it freaks me out but because I'm so zoned out that's the only time every other time it's just kind of there and don't really I don't know. Well, so that, what you just described as deep focus is one of the inoculations for

racing mind. And if you're fully committed to one and then two and then three, right? And you're fully committed to that. There's literally no space to muse other ideas or images. Or feel the pain of like what you're feeling, like racing and stuff. And like all you're just focused on that number. Okay. So give some context for folks that have.

haven't read your book that don't understand what some of the early childhood experiences, give to your best abilities without me asking something that you don't, where you don't want to take a conversation. But can you give a general sense? Because you did such a nice job in your book explaining your early childhood experiences. So I was born in Ukraine, and I was born three years after Chernobyl Radiation League happens. The radiation levels, what people don't even know to this day, is so high. and so strong and keeps rising that there's like a hundred miles around what

Chernobyl is like it's just dead land right now and when my birth mom was traveling and she must have eaten something or in that area that was affected by radiation that resulted in when i was in her births when i was in her stomach resulted in my like deformities disabilities i guess i was born with my legs and it wasn't until i got to america that I went to my first dentist and they took x-rays and my adult teeth, they saw radiation in my teeth. And that's when they were like, this is what time. And they went back and did the time frame and kind of where the village I was, well, the last orphanage, you don't really where I was from and everything in Ukraine and kind of said that it's most likely Chernobyl that caused all this.

Because when you're born with a disability or anything that's like deformity in the body, A lot of times it's localized. So if you have an amputation, it's like at the legs and only at the legs. Or maybe it'll be like on a leg in an arm or something. But it's the same type of a disability. Where for me, I was born with my legs. I was missing the main weight-bearing bones on both of them. And my knees were kind of floating there.

They weren't really knees. And my enamel was stripped. And radiation is one of the only things I can strip enamel. And my hands were deformed. I was missing my organs and kidneys. and some muscle groups. That's why I really got to focus when I go straight on a bike because if I don't, then I'm like the one muscle group

is going to take over because it's stronger. But because of all the stuff that was going on, I was put right to an orphanage because my birth parents didn't have the resources for the medical care I was going to need. And they thought they were going to be giving me a better life in the orphanage where they could potentially give me what I need. And that wasn't the case.

I lived in three different orphanages straight from birth until I was adopted when I was seven and a half. And within those three orphanages, the one I remember the most and the one that my memories are so vivid that are in the book. And I share a lot, but there's some things that I just don't share in the book in the memories because I'm still trying to figure out how to put words to the things that I experienced. But the last one is where a lot of the stuff happened and there was just mistreatment, abuse, physical, sexual, like starving to death and just being extremely malnourished. When I came to America, I was diagnosed as failure to thrive. Like, I wasn't going to live long because of just my size. And my immune system was non-existent at all and just very weak. And it's weird.

Like, my hair was black and coarse, and I had black eyes and everything. Like, everything changed when I came to America. And finally, my mom says it was just food, love, and hugs. And I grew within, like, six inches within a few months of being in America. And my mom adopted me as a single parent. And then we came to, and the crazy thing is, like, she just saw a picture of me. She didn't go to the orphanage first to be like, oh, I love her personality or anything like that. She just saw this really not so cute picture of me.

And thank God she saw something in it and fought for me for two years. It was a very long battle that she had to go through. And now I'm here. Yeah, you are. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentus. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday. What you put in your body matters, and that's why I trust Momentus.

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Well, yeah, like my friend Lainey, yeah. Well, your friend Lainey, we can talk about that. There's things like, there's the horror part of it, which I'm not interested in talking about in this moment with you, but there's the parts where like, I'm like, can you talk about the sugar cubes? How you, like, this is remarkable. By the way, I don't, I'm sorry, real quick. I don't want to miss this point. I don't want to miss that you came to America with hugs and some food, some pure love that your mom had, and you grew six inches in a handful of months. like that that should paint a picture of like just how bad it was and so look can we just start with the sugar cubes and like I think that really brings it to life for me at least yeah so I I love sugar keeps even when I got to America I hoarded them in my room and under my mattress and behind my boarding my headboard I was really really hungry at times and if I washed a pair of 10 socks on this like metal like old washboard, I would get a sugar cube. And I learned how to

savor that sugar cube. My fiance hates the way I eat now because I something I still do to this day. Like I, he calls me like a little rabbit. I take the smallest bites and then I individually within that bite, I make that bite like 10 separate bites in itself. The way I ate that sugar cube to keep it longer and last longer is so everyone knows. to sugar cube is, obviously. And it's like has within that square, it has like these little tiny crystals of sugar. And I would take little bite by bite and chew each one individually. And it would just last me for a very, very long time and taught, like I just would get fuller that way faster. And I would have more and just learned how to do that. And I do that now to this day with my grapes.

I eat the, I'm such a weirdo. I eat like the peel first and that eat the like the outside. And And then, like, later on, it all actually came in handy when I was living out of my car. I learned how to make that box of spinach that I could afford at the grocery store last that much longer because it was, I've already been there. I knew that. And that's, I worked for that food and savored it. All right. I've already been there.

I think that's where I learned hard work. Like, okay, if I work hard, there's like, not a reward, but there's good out of it. Well, this is not advised, right? Like starve your kids so that they understand hard work. This is not, this is not what we're saying. Okay, but I mean, remarkable, like it speaks to your resourcefulness, your cleverness, the will to live, a strategy to figure out how to optimize when it is deplorable. And so like that, that to me, it feels like that captures so much about your internal resources.

And now, let's just be clear, this was like in the age four, five, six, right? seven-ish. Yeah, so no, this was five and six, five to seven. Because like I moved, the way it works is from birth to three, you're in one orphanage. From three to five, you're considered like a baby home. And then five to 16, you're considered an adult. Unless you're four and you outgrow your bed, then you go automatically to the adult one. And so you had a friend in there, Laney, which you talk about in the book.

and she was like, she took care of you. Yeah, I didn't realize how much she was taking care of me and how much she was protecting me. I've been through therapy, too, and I was the really hellish child that just would make it very difficult on the therapist because I wouldn't talk or anything. And I had one incredible one in Buffalo, New York.

It was supposed to be a 30-minute consultation. And all of a sudden, my mom's like, it's an hour and a half in, and I'm still in there and she comes out and she's like, can she, O'Conna have some milk and some cookies? She's like, yeah, but is this okay? Like, we're past the time from the consultation. She's like, yeah, after that, that, she's like,

I don't remember, I don't know. I know I didn't say anything. I was not a talker. I was not, but she gave me things to draw and things. And at the end, she walked down and she told my mom, like, she's going to need a lifelong therapy for the rest of her life. She's been through some, like, it's very apparent in her body language and what she's drawing. My mom was trying to figure out what it was.

That patient confidentiality, she wasn't going to tell her, but it was very apparent for her within, like, the first five minutes of being with me. There was a lot of deep stuff. A lot of that deep stuff was what I did not know, what my friend Lainey, who was one of my best friends there in the orphanage, in the last one, was protecting me from until she was. was gone. And when I say gone, I mean, I'm not going to say the specifics because you can read about it, but she didn't just pass away peacefully. Unfortunately, it was a pretty traumatic way that I had to watch her die. And that's a guilt that I have with me because it was my fault of what happened and why we were out of our rooms. But that's why I wanted to write this book is because I've always felt so guilty

and I always wonder like, why did I make it out? Why was I the one that made it? And she wasn't. Why didn't like, like, I didn't understand it. And then I felt guilty about it. And this was my way to honor her legacy

and make her story so that she is someone. It didn't just go unknown. And she is there. And she's been there part of my journey the whole entire time. And yeah, she was, She was the pretty version of me.

She had the natural blonde hair. This is fake. I don't have blonde hair. And she had the blue eyes and just nothing that physically wrong. And she was older and just so, so sweet. Like, just so, so kind. So can I offer an observation? Yeah.

Yeah. So I think I'm watching you take care of yourself right now. What do you mean? that yeah so like you my hair no no you're completely honest with uh what you just responded and there's a lot of emotion and i can hear it in your voice and i'm sure you can feel it but i watch you like not go into let's say a 10 let's say on a scale of one to 10 it's like an eight is where i'm about to like fall into a thousand pieces and like you know like or maybe that's a nine or something, right? And like somewhere in the seven or eight zone, I'm like, okay, like I can feel

it, but I can still manage it. And I think you were right up in that seven and eight if we're calibrating correctly. That's because every time I talk to talk about her, I get to a point where I'm fine, fine, fine, and then all of a sudden I'm like crying. And I don't want to do that on you. And so that's why I was like, like, people can read about the specifics because of when I start to talk about it, there's so much, there's so much power in when words come to life and you put them out there and you speak them from your mouth and that's why I hated my story and it was so hard for me to love my story and love myself and know what I went through wasn't my fault but yeah I don't I just totally lost my train up top where I was why I was

going with that but does that happen sometimes when you when you go and kind of get close to the trauma that there's a blankness that comes with it sometimes? Sometimes. Yeah, I recognize it. I recognize it. Yeah. Not oftentimes with Laney, though. Like, that is, I think because I just saw it and heard and it sounds like that,

when you watch something like that, you do not forget ever. I'm so glad we're talking about this. A big part of this book was about Laney, but when I read this part of the book, I was like, oh, there's a hero. Right? And I wondered how you worked through that. And in the book, the way you write about it, you pulled me right into, it felt like I was there,

like watching. And I wondered about like the survival guilt that you might feel about that. And that's what you're dealing with now, maybe, or have been. And it's like, it doesn't make any sense because you wouldn't have chosen that. You wouldn't have wished that. Like that, it's not anything close to what,

either if you wanted. And so it's like it doesn't make sense. Why was it her and not you? Yeah. Well, because she pushed me. She took care of you. Yeah. We're all so lucky to have somebody like Lainty in our lives.

Yeah, and that's so cool because every time I race, like I'm so, there's so many times in moments whether I'm training or racing and I feel like, literally like sometimes like a push and I'm like looking back to see who it is and I'm by myself and in my mind of like told that was my way of telling myself like that is Laney saying like right here by your side still and then she's never left and that kind of stuff so I'm pretty lucky because I have that extra secret weapon that not a lot of athletes have and um when I get really retired specifically and when I feel that and I think someone's behind the competitor pushing me sometimes it is because it gets race and it happens but um

I'm pretty lucky to have that, and it's like that second wind. Finding Mastery is brought to you by NutraFal. In many of my conversations about high performance and well-being, I often come back to this idea. The mind and body is one of the most beautiful ecosystems. And when something's out of sync for too long, like stress or hormones or nutrition, it often shows up in visible and sometimes invisible ways. One of those signals, hair thinning, hair loss.

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their hard parts, their shitty experiences or their bad days into their power and fuel to like not just be something bad that happened. Like, oh, yeah, this is a really sad memory. But you know what? Like we started this conversation at the beginning of there's always that big contrast and there's, we can take from both. Have you ever read or are you aware of Banksy's insight the, you know, the contemporary artist, Banksy? No. About dying twice. I clearly live under a rock.

Well, you're training a lot, so it's understood. They say you die twice when you stop breathing. And then the second one a bit later, when somebody mentions your name for the last time. Pretty cool. So, Lainey's still living. How about it? Yeah. Okay.

How do you use and integrate your experiences? This is like what I really want to. to understand because there was an insight that you had, which was somebody asked you if you could go back and kind of change your seven-year-old's experiences and you're really bold. Do you remember what you said in that interview? I would tell her I wouldn't change a thing to just keep fighting. Yeah. Except stop climbing books, the bookshelves that I always got ripped from and just in trouble all the time because I clearly didn't learn from getting in trouble all the time and getting punished and I still went and did it anyways. So I tell myself that too. What do you tell yourself?

I would tell myself like to stop doing that if I could go back in time too. Just like not just yeah, keep fighting, but also let's not put ourselves in like more trouble than we already get. Do you take risks? Is that what that's about? Like are you an adventurer or risk taker? Like help me understand that part of you a little bit. I am in a weird way. Like I'm not. There's a reason why I I love cross-country skiing and not downhill skiing because I like to work against gravity. It's safer in that aspect. So risk-wise, like that, no, I do not. But I am a very adventurous person and want to try and we'll do something at least once.

And I've always been very, I think I've always walked that line of, like right on that edge of a fear and exhilarating kind of thing. Okay. So you like that. You like that feeling. Yeah. And then, yeah, I can know that I am control of it. When I'm control, like in like controlling every aspect of it kind of thing. So this is another insight. Before we get to the alignment piece, you had another insight, which is like for so much of me and so much of my early life, my story was written for me. I have your, right? And then you say, but that's different on the start line. On the start line, the story. isn't written. Nothing's decided yet. Nothing is decided yet. And so much of your life was, as you, as you put it, like decided for you. So what were the things that were decided for you? What are you capturing in that insight? When my story was written for me, I'm referring to scars that I came with that I remember and I know how I got and some I don't remember. And they were already written for me that part of me on my body that I had no control over. What does that mean? What are those scars that you're referring to?

Like on my legs and my hands and stuff and I have this one on my stomach and that I remember very vividly getting one night and it's just like I didn't have a control in that. I didn't have, I didn't like the scars now, like I'm recovering from an injury on my hand and I have the scar and I have these scars on my elbow from Pyong Chong and when I was racing and messed my elbow up. These scars I was going to control off because it's from an injury. I know where they came from. The scars that are resulted of abuse and punishments or like the ones I have a lot of like

IV cut down scars where it was just reused, reused. I was the smallest and the youngest, so I was the last one to get all the needles. And so they just got infected to cut everything out. So there's some medical scars too. And that's all that I had no control over and I didn't like I. I just, that was written for me. In addition to that, mentally when I came to America and started processing and not even understanding, but when all the memories I thought I was suppressing and hid and told my mom

nothing ever happened, it was that like invisible scar tissue inside that was also something that was written for me. And I had to relearn how to rewire my brain and my process when I look in the mirror in addition to going through amputations two separate times in my life. And both times, someone's telling me, why would you do that? You can't do anything if you cut your legs off. And my legs are above the knee, which makes a very, very big difference if you're below the knee amputee to above the knee because you're missing two joints, or ankle and a knee. And society determines people's disabilities that I'm invisible. I'm not worthy of setting goals, let alone achieving those goals, let alone

achieving those goals or love or being seen. And my biggest pet peeve is determining what I'm capable of achieving and doing based on what their limited view is. And so in that aspect, my story's been written for me as a girl with a disability, as an orphan, as an abused orphan, as a female in sports, and being a smaller statue built and stuff. And I wanted to rewrite my own story. Thank you for the insights there.

And more importantly, thank you for getting so close to your experiences that I feel like I can feel it too. You're forcing, just by the way you're choosing your words, for me to be in touch with times that I felt like I wasn't seen. And my essence didn't matter as much as their experience. And I think a lot of people can understand what that means. So you take it a step further. you say I was invisible. Can you open that up a little bit, like what that's like? And I think there's probably two parts. There's the, you can talk about the trauma part, of course, but there's also like the everyday thing is like I've learned from some Paralympic athletes I've spent

time with is that like people don't want to look. And because if they look, they don't want to make you feel different or weird. I've got the opposite problem. People stare like there's no tomorrow. Like, their eyes are about to, my pet peeve is, if you're going to look, look. And then it's a question. It's when people go and they're like this and their eyes are following, it's like they're about to fall out of their heads. They're going so far. And then they're trying to look that it's more obvious than if you just look and turn. And it's fine to look, but it's like, I'm not going through airports or anywhere in the grocery store or, you know, it's like what's really hard is I have my prosthetics. I'm okay with those. My hands is what drives me insane. People

don't know what to do because sometimes when I pay for something with a card or cash and they go and they look and they jump and then like that because it's so different, they don't expect my hand to look the way it does like a little tiny teabrex claw coming at them. And maybe I need to paint my nails. Wait, what did you call it the little tiny little teabx claw? I have little short hands anyways. Like my hands are, I'm a short person. And so I try to make it up with my legs and be tall. to hide for that. But my hands are like, I've had a lot, a lot of surgery and reconstruction surgery on my hands. To the point, like, doctors don't understand how I'm using my hands because scientifically within my anatomy, it makes no sense I shouldn't be able to. But I found a way.

Like, we all find ways. So you had, you were born to five fingers, not a thumb. Yeah, five fingers, no thumb, but it was like, they were all webbed. And so when I was in Ukraine, I had seven surgeries to help a little bit. I was born. Fun fact, six toes, which is not due to radiation. That apparently is something like you get passed down from your parents. So I can't wait to one day meet my birth family and be like,

did you have six toes? And why did you give me these eyebrows that like stop growing halfway? And I have to fill in the rest. There's a lot. So there's a lot there. So on the six toes, is it like literally like it's an extra toe? Yeah.

So it's not like coming from the same. So yeah. And but your fingers had like two nail beds in each finger. Yeah. Did I read that correctly? Yeah. They were all like everything doubles. But what I don't have is so like I have this one, this one, but then I don't have that extra joint that you do here.

It's just one two. That's right. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, cool. And then they took my fifth finger, like moved it from here to here. So I don't have. Yeah.

So like I don't have this muscle here. it's not a thumb, which is half of his hand. What's the best type of interaction when somebody notices your hand or they're looking like and like what's the best kind of and what's the worst kind of reaction that or interaction that the worst is like when you like do a double take as if someone just poured hot water on them or cold water on them. It's like, okay, cool. Get cultured experience.

Get out a little bit. I know I live under a rock. Is that what you say? Yeah. Sometimes when they're rude or I'm just like, like, God, stare much. I'm that person. Sometimes, like, I am.

I'm passive-aggressive. And my fiance is like, no, exana, you are just aggressive-aggressive-aggressive. Sometimes there's no passive-aggressiveness. Oh, classic. Cool. When they need that aggressive, aggressive, I like to call people out because then they brings attention to like, oh. And maybe that will help them in the next time they see someone that they're like not

used to seeing or whatever. But it's those people that come when I say, Thank you for your service. And I'm like, what? So they automatically assume and associate someone with amputees or something like that is automatically because of military, and that's what it was. And I don't know if it's because it helps them process of how and what could have happened to someone's lakes and why they are the way they are.

Please don't do that. I mean, I know I'm a badass and I look tough, but I'm, no, don't just assume and say thank you. Because on the other side of that, is I'm saying, oh, I'm not in the service. I'm like, oh, oh, okay. And then just walk away. So it's like, okay, well, may I ask what happened? That's like, you could just do it that way. If you weren't in the military, I just assumed because you look like a badass.

You could just say that. I'm like, it's okay to ask. You don't have to just stare. And because you're uncomfortable, like, it's the only way is I have my legs. I was hiding my legs. I had the foam and the nylons to try and hide it. And I realized I was bringing the wrong. tension and the negative stairs.

And people were just, they couldn't figure out, like, well, what's wrong with me? Why do I walk? Like, I got something up my back or something. And that's because they couldn't see what I was working with. And so I decided to, the sports helped me find the strength of accepting who I am and seeing it my running partner who looks so cool with his legs. I'm like, okay, I'm going to do this. So they can see the components of it.

Yeah, it's cool. I actually really appreciate that piece. Like I love that like insight, which is like kind of bring whatever it is to the forefront, bring it to the light because, you know, as you've, as you've also articulated, we all have dark tunnels. Yeah. And your mom helped you find, you know, the light through that tunnel is one of your insights. And so like just kind of bringing things into the light, for me at least when I bring

something to the light, then it's like, oh, well, it's so exhausting trying to carry this thing around when I bring it to the forefront and to the light and other people are like, oh, is that why you're all stressed out. Oh, okay. Now I understand. Cool. Yeah. I get stressed out too. Thanks for letting me know. Yeah. 100%. Finding Mastery is brought to you by branch basics. Here at finding mastery, we often talk about the power of aligning your thoughts, your words, and your actions. And that includes setting up the spaces you live in with intentionality. This same reflection led me and my family to take a closer look at the products we were using every day, especially in our home. That's when we found Branch Basics. Their ultimate starter kit, it helped us eliminate

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dot com slash finding mastery to get started. I think this is a segue about your tattoo, your rose tattoo in particular. Your rose tattoo. I think there's a segue here. Can you talk about one of your, the way that you have conceptualized that a rose is just a rose and your rose tattoo? So I am a Ruth of Franklin fan and there was a song that just hit my heart and I identified so much with it, a specific lyric, which is.

a rose is still and always will be a rose. It doesn't matter what form it's in. So, well, she said that my metaphor and taken in the way I interpret it was, yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter a rose, whether it's a dead rose, a thriving, beautiful colored rose, or halfway dying rose. It will always be a rose still. And that kind of helped me. So I got this tattoo specifically placed over a scar that I had.

And the way I received that scar was super traumatic. in that. Literally, Mike, this was a scar that happened so recently when my mom adopted me, I was still picking out the stitches up until a few months after, like, I was in America. And then all of a sudden, I'm like, I got it finally and showed my mom. And like, that's how recent that situation happened from when she adopted me. And it was only going to get worse if she didn't get me then. And it's a rose that is thriving on one side and is transforming into a dying black and white rose and kind of frailing away. And it says a rose is still and always will be a rose on the words on the sides of it. And that was for me to remember when I look at that,

not to see the scar, but to see that no matter what was taken away from you, that you're still, you're still worthy. You're still deserve love and you still are a person and you still can love yourself. What do you do to love yourself? Like, how do you practice that? I sweat it out. I'm not going to lie, I just sweat, work out. I just have to go and throw some weights and release that energy and stuff. And I recently, I'm really getting into my me time, which is like my 3,000 steps skincare routine. And it's not just because of doing that. It's like the process.

I'm in the, it's kind of going back to accounting. And when I'm doing each process of it, it's kind of just like, not focusing on anything else. just focusing on what I'm putting on and just that process, like 10 minutes and all that kind of stuff. And then the other side is, so that girly girl side and then just work out. To be honest, I've got a lot of anger. I was an angry racer and I was just a very angry kid. I think people will learn why.

And I didn't know why I was angry and it wasn't directed to one specific thing of anger. It was just anger. I don't know if you've seen that. Oh, gosh. Inside Out, that animated show about the emotions. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's really clever. My favorite one guy was the angry father's side.

Yeah, I was like, yes, I get him because it's so raw, it's so emotional and so real. And I was just that angry kid. And I got to release that in sports. You would use, you would come from that place. You could express that, the intensive anger in working out. And so that's one of the ways it probably got you got you. Yeah, it was a let go. So there's also this interesting little meditative process that you had, like this full presence with the anger and intensity and the physical movement and all the attention required that there is a release valve in there for you. I'm not suggesting that that is healthy or that that is like a way to heal, but you're using it, right? Yeah. Well, and it's interesting because like you're saying you're not suggesting it's a heal. I've had some injuries.

And you know, it's really scary and I'm going to have to find ways to heal. And this is the real honest truth because my coping in my therapy for a lot of stuff right now is sports and training and just that's my escape. And when I'm injured, what's going to happen when that goes away? Exactly. That's right. Yeah. And that's terrible.

So you're aware of it. Yeah, I think, well, you're going to need another tool, right? Yeah, well, it's coffee. I love coffee and I have a espresso machine and I'm just going to have to be mill. 24-7. Okay, so you've been through highs and lows, as all of us have. I think yours are really unique, and your lows are pretty damn low, and your highs are pretty damn high.

I'm pretty lucky. I don't know what it's like to stay on a podium, a global podium like you have. And I also don't know the lows that you've, I haven't lived in your body. So my point is, though, how do you think about mindset? How do you think about the way that you approach an event or events in your life? I don't know. This is honestly something that is kind of like a new territory for me, and I'm still learning to navigate it and still trying to find that how do I approach it in that way?

And the mindset of it, it's going to sound so weird. But like, I'm so thankful for what I experienced and what I went through. And my mindset, instead of being so angry like I was at that time, Because what I lived and what I experienced and when I, now, these are tools I have because I walk that path, I now know and nothing's going to get as bad as that, first of all. And now what I'm doing here, I'm in complete control and can have the option to choose how I want to approach this. And there's sometimes where it's good and sometimes it's not.

That type of taking responsibility, I think, is probably right at the center. And that- Unless you've advice, I don't know. I have no idea. No, that sounds, yeah, no, no, no. I would not dare to give you advice, but I think that that sounds like, okay, that's probably a pretty powerful place to come from. Like I'm going to, I'm in control of how I'm going to use my mind. I'm in control of how I'm going to work with my emotions.

I'm in control of how I'm going to show up. And so it feels like that would be a really powerful. orientation to come from. And then you've also got like this other really powerful, I think there's a dovetail here, is that it's a quote in your book. I feel like the theme that people focus on in the story of a Paralympian is the hardship and not the athleticism. That's the most frustrating thing on earth. It's like orphan girl, no leg skier. That's always first. It pisses me off to the core because, excuse me, I'm not an orphan anymore. I have an amazing family, stop using that as a line. And my legs are what created the opportunity for me to be an

athlete. I'm not missing legs. I guarantee you 99% of Paralympians are not viewing themselves in that way that the media is portraying them. We've turned into inspiration porn in some ways. If people could see the behind the scenes conversation that we have, they would better understand. So like, pretty rad insight. So like when I say that to you, what do you mean? Like, when you think of an athlete like Serena Williams or Michael Jordan, first thing that pops into 90% of people's minds is what they've achieved and that go, greatest of all time. But when you think of a Paralympian and you think about, oh, well, what happened to your body? Where did you come from? And it's beyond frustrating to be constantly seen, not by what you're doing, what your actions,

are what you have done with your life, despite of where you come from the past you've walked. And there's still the past people want to focus on that. And there's this discrepancy on the way we view professional athletes, businessmen, business women. I mean, it's not just an athlete. It happens everywhere. And people kind of pity in some ways and have this like very different approach and just want to change. the tone and the conversation and the dialogue of Paralympic athletes. The sweat equity is exactly the same as professional athletes, as Olympic athletes,

in just not just athletes, like I said, but also in business world. Like you go and get a degree, college degree, you work your steps up and you're a business owner or which I CEO, whatever it is. Where you come from, it's important. It's shaped you. But it's not your identity of who you are. It's exactly what you're doing from this in the moments and your actions. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Felix Gray.

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Again, that's Felix, F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-W. dot com and use the code finding mastery 20 at felix gray dot com for 20% off so early you said like i'm a badass uh and i agree to me you're a badass because of your psychology and and yeah the way that you have applied yourself in the physical world is like the expression of your mind and so it's like your you've used your body just like any athlete uses their body as an extension of how they use their mind. And so, like, that's what I'm impressed by. So I want to make sure that I heard how you think about that

and then also say, like, I know that that's where we started this conversation, but for me, it's about your psychology. It's about how you work with your past trauma and how you approach this present moment, whatever this moment is, and how you think about your future. And that's the psychology of you I'm trying to understand better because your insights are remarkable. And what you've done is a demonstration of them is evident.

I think that's where I'm very lucky because I've had people ask, like, where does this all insight come? Where do you, like, but I think it's the first seven and a half years of my life, I didn't have a voice. I was just an observer of my environment and of how people, like, good and bad people acted and all different types of, I saw a lot of different experiences. And I internalized and just,

think that and then lived philosophically in very metaphor ways. Well, no child would, you would not want your child. There's no child that we would ever, like... No, you want them to share their voice to make... Jesus. What you live, though, is like, I mean, it's childhood

hell. I don't know another way of thinking about it. But there were some really good times, too. Like, I've had really incredible memories, too. And it's funny how those are Even though there weren't that many memories of those incredible amazing times, they're stronger than the 3 billion times more bad that I experienced, if that makes sense at all. What an incredible survival strategy that is, or like a natural strategy is to hold on to those wonderful moments. And it doesn't mitigate the others, but it's almost like this counterbalance that you figured out is like, no, I need to also hold on to these insane.

these wonderful moments and make sure that they're close to the surface as part of like survival. And I also hear you use the word lucky a bunch. Oh, yeah. Oh, God, yeah. That should have been the title of the book is pretty damn lucky. Is that like a, is that a grounded philosophy for you that I feel pretty damn lucky in life? I mean, I'm pretty lucky. I don't know what else you explained besides just luck. the chance that my mom saw a picture of me and she tried to get me when I was five is when she learned about me. Ukraine closed adoptions and put a moratorium on all of foreign adoptions and there's a ban. And the U.S. said the same thing. I don't know any other word except

luck because during those two years, everyone was telling her to just, you can go to Russia, you can get a baby, you wanted a baby, you can have a kid. like a month, you don't know when this is going to happen. You don't know when, if she'll still be alive and all this stuff. And she waited for me. That's luck in that moment, because I didn't control that. I get confused by luck. And I get confused because I don't know what to think about luck, really.

So I'm learning from you here because I just don't know what to think about it. Because people say, I've been lucky or like that you've been lucky or whatever. And I go, I don't know because there's, I could follow it the other way and say bad luck. where you were born, you know, and the conditions there at the orphanage or good luck that you had a mom. Good luck that you're born with, you know, some sort of ability to be super resourceful, like whatever genetic coding that might have. So good luck, bad luck. I don't know, but where I, but I hear you saying, no, I'm lucky. And I go, oh, that's you also paying attention or attending to the favorable parts of your life and amplifying those. And so then I see that working. And then

are you familiar with the Zen farmer's story, the parable? No, because I still live under a rock. Okay. So once about time, as most Zen parables might start, you know, there's an old farmer who had, who was working his crops for many years. And then his horse ran away. And upon hearing that news, his neighbors all came to visit, and they said, oh, such bad luck. You know, and they said sympathetically to him, you know, you must be really upset. Yeah. And the farmer says, we'll see. Good luck, bad luck, who knows?

And then the next day, the horse returns, bringing, you know, with it, other wild horses. And, you know, then the neighbors come and they're like, oh, my God, how wonderful. Like, your horse returned and you receive two more. Like, this is amazing. And he says, we'll see, you know, good luck, bad luck, who knows. And then the next day, his son. tried to ride, you know, one of the untamed horses. And then he was thrown off and he broke a leg. And the neighbors came back and said, oh, my gosh, you know, so sorry to hear about your son,

you know, and that he can't help you with farming and this is terrible. And then, you know, what bad luck. And then the farmer says, we'll see. Good luck, bad luck, who knows. And then the last day of this parable, the military officials come through the village and they're taking all the young men who are able-bodied to be able to, you know, to work in the military and they pass them over because his legs were broken. And then all the neighbors come running back and say, oh my gosh, congratulations. You know, your son, you know, he's not going to war and this is like great news. You must be so happy. And the man, the farmer says, you know, we'll see. Good luck, bad luck. Who knows? And so that's then parable like sticks with me. Like,

I don't know. You think it's a mindset? Because he didn't choose. He didn't like write the negative and bad, like bad luck yet. He just, it's kind of, yeah. So maybe that's what it is. Like, like we said, there's, like, power in word. If you, like, put these words out there from your mouth, it's like, yes, bad luck, you're going to see all the bad in it only. So how do you do that? How do you speak to yourself, like your self-talk? Because there's words that we put out, and then there's words that we use in. And so how do you use your internal narrative to be a badass? Well, to be honest, my internal narrative is pretty hard on myself. It's not. It's not. So high self-critique?

Yeah. Like when I... Or self-doubt. Both? Let's break it apart. You say, I've got lots of self-doubt. I've got lots of self-critical. Like, it's not wonderful to be in my head sometimes.

It's not probably all the time because... No, not all the time. There's just, it's like an event or like... So it's prior to an event. Prior to an event. And then some of my teammates just get really frustrated with me sometimes because even if I, One, all I can focus on is that thing that went wrong. And I'm mad about that.

That's the only thing I can't let go. Okay, so that got you good. Let's be clear. That's not good enough. I can do that better. Come on. Xana, let's go. Get your shit together, right?

Like that type of thing got you good, whether it's in the weight room, on the track, holding a gun, whatever it might be. Like, that got you good. And then it sounds like that has facilitated intense preparation. but debilitates the ability to have freedom and peace. So there's a, there's this, you've gotten, you are literally the most decorated Paralympic athlete in the Winter Games. And so, and you've won more medals than any other Olympian in the Winter Games.

I think that that's a fair data point, right? I'm sorry, Paula Ono. what's up apollo he's a friend and so that's awesome yeah and so all right so here you are and you're saying yeah what got me here is i kick my own ass a lot and i don't wish this on anybody what's the next level for you like would you would you train your daughter would you train her in this approach no you would not like i would have her be proud of herself and let herself celebrate the good and the win or the really good moments. And we'll talk about the good moments first, I feel like, for her.

Where for me, what I need to do more and better of is focus on the good things on that race and wow. And then like, okay, but I really didn't like this instead of flip it and focus on the bad and the first thought is bad. So that's what you're working on. Yeah. That's okay. But then it's weird because I think this is where by the environment that I was grew up in and my neurological system, the way it's wired, is so used to being told negative, bad things. And what I'm used to is proving myself wrong, proving them wrong, fighting for the food,

fighting to survive. So it became this weird push-pull. comfort level of self-doubt in a way. When I doubt myself, I'm not doubting myself. It's like, even though I'm talking to myself, I'm not perceiving it as it's my voice, Oksana, what do you talk? Like, oh my God, like, you're not ready for this at all. You haven't done, you didn't make every single day count. Look how strong they look. And I'm focusing on all the other opponent's strengths and giving them the benefit of the doubt. Well, they had a bad race. I just got lucky. And it's this internal.

dialogue that I process it all while I'm in the sport itself. And then outside, I'm learning how to process it as a holistic approach of me and myself, Oxan as a whole, not just in the race. That makes sense. You're hitting it. You just opened up like the narrative for, I don't know, 90% of people, which is downgrading one's own history and body of work, attributing, and I'm going to go, I'm going to be antagonistic to you a little bit, attributing a little bit of luck to your success and skill to them. So the reason they're so good is because they are badasses. And, you know, I just kind of got lucky.

Because you know that maybe you got a little quicker start than you normally would have or whatever happened. Like you squinted at one of the targets and it went in. You're not supposed to squint, but you got that happens too. Lucky shots. Of course it does. Yeah. But it's because of the follow-through, you have to have good.

like body first, but there's some good lucky hits too. Yeah, so, so, but that, that equation of downgrading your body of work and upgrading the skill of the other people is a disaster, right? It's good. It's like the substrate of anxiety. It's the substrate of self-doubt. And then if you add a little self-criticalness on it, it becomes pretty toxic. And I, I want to make sure I heard you correctly, like you speak to yourself in a way that you

would never let somebody else speak to you that way. Did you say that or did I just kind of make that up in my head? I would never say that to a friend, like, or like, I would never let a friend be spoken to or thought of that way. But, yeah, that's really interesting, isn't it? Because you take care of other people, right? The way Laney took care of you probably, the way your mom helped support you, right? So you know that well.

But I think most people would recognize that, too, is like they would never, they speak to themselves in a way that they would never speak that way to another person. Like if I say to myself, come on, Jerva, get your shit together. What is wrong with you? By the way, I'm done saying that to myself. Like, I've reached a certain point in my love of myself that I was like, yeah, I've got to be done with that type of thinking. And so I would not let somebody else talk to me that way.

And I would never coach somebody that way. So that's when I knew it was really twisted. And how are you going to let go of that? Like, how do you imagine it? Well, hold on. Do you want to let go of that? I think I heard you say that you do, but I don't want to presume. Well, I do because it's weird because I only do that in the sporting environment.

I don't do that outside of a sport, outside of a start line and racing and before, not a start line, but the pre-start line area in the night before. And I guess, yeah, so I'm only doing it in that moment when I'm expected of something, I guess. And, you know, it's interesting because, and I just trying to find the words, because in my mind, I'm like, this is, I don't know how to put, like, a word to a feeling because it's not necessarily wanted that. It's a feeling that's very similar to my house in Ukraine and your back is against the wall. And it's a very familiar feeling for me. It's impossible to just, okay, well, work through it, throw that out because it's really toxic. I think I have found a way for me that how to just

harness it to that line of where it's good, but I don't live in what. the words I'm speaking to myself and I don't actually take that to heart outside of that race and view myself that way in the mirror at all. And I don't know, maybe this is what I need to do to be for next season when I am working on my comeback, this injury, is get rid of that because we had a sports psychologist that he, and I think part of it is because, to be honest, is because my processing and healing still is in that moment of sport. And so it's processing the memories, working through them, through that emotion of your backs against a wall and you have to, like, fight.

I don't know. It's like it's just a weird twist, a little ball that is, I have found how to shape this ball to be a positive ball, hopefully. Yeah. And I'll just use the ball bouncing metaphor. Like, there's an important question, like the ball that I'm bouncing now, do I want to keep bouncing this ball? or is there a different one I want to pick up?

Because I know this one. I know where the flat spots are. I know where the bounce is kind of weird. But is there another, it's a weird metaphor that we're trying to make come alive here a little bit. But I like the vine metaphor a little bit. Like I know how to swing on this vine. But the longer I swing on the vine, the more momentum I lose. And at some point I've got to take that vulnerable step to go to a new vine.

And I'm not suggesting this is the one for you. But I think most of us can recognize that we don't want to speak to ourselves. We don't beat ourselves up. Yeah. We don't want to do that because it just kind of leaves a death by 1,000 cuts. I was going to say, it's like in the book I talk about our sports psychologist I worked with for the biathlon side. When I realized the transition of not racing so angry and the sustainability of it, he had me put my hands out. And he said, think of something that makes you angry that you feel like.

like, is your power and your secret power and making you strong when you race? And he put, pushing on my hands and had me resist against it. And I could resist, but not for a very long time. And then he's like, think of something that makes you happy. And so for me, instantly I thought of my mom and lamey because that was just these explosively strong, powerful things. And it was at first, he pushed down, but I was able to resist against him and was sustaining that resistance from him.

And that's where that moment, when I felt that physical. physical, oh, shit, I feel it. I see what you're saying. That's, I think, is what for me, because I'm a physical person, I have to experience it and feel it to get to, like, find that new ball kind of thing. And I think it is with this and it's just learning how to then. Okay. Awesome. Last thoughts. What do you want to say to your mom? Oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh. I don't, honestly, I have no idea because literally there is not one single word that exists in any dictionary in this world, in any language, that describes who she is and could ever describe the emotions

and what she means to mean, who she is, because they don't exist yet in this language. But I'd say thank you for picking me out of all the people, for not giving up on me, for saving me. and I'm sorry for the gray hair that you got before we left Ukraine that month. And just, she's the reason why she saved my life. She literally saved my life. And then she saved my life again by introducing the world of sports for me and realizing this is going to be her outlet to release this when she doesn't know how to articulate things

until she finds it. I want to encourage people to read the book, your book, The Hard Parts. one of the things I'm going to ask is to, for an introduction to your mom, your mom is epic. And the way that she kind of put it all out there and fought for you and like didn't know what she was doing in it, but trusted. That's the crazy thing. She never made a conscious decision once. She's the kind of person, like she also fought her own battles as a female at that time

getting a PhD and going through that and just in the very male dominated world. and then adopting a single parent when she's being constantly challenged. Like, is something wrong with you? What's wrong with your mind? Why are you not married? Why you can't do this? She had to put a man down on the adoption papers because you had to have a father. And she was like, now she's like, I don't know why I didn't put like Bruce Willis.

I don't know, some like big person down or something. But, yeah, like, she's incredible. And everything I am is by watching her fight and not give up from me. What do you hope for? All I want is I want to be that person behind the scenes where no one knows who or what or why. This one part of this world is better and this, oh my gosh, this sport is incredible. Or I just want to leave my imprint. I don't want to leave a record because that is going to get diminished at some point.

I just want to leave an imprint of a better world, and it's better because I had one little ounce of grain of sand to put into that giant pot that we all contribute to. But I don't want to be known for that. Yes. I don't know. More of that please in the world. Okay. It all comes down to.

All comes down to belief. If you knew what I knew, you would. Never give up. You are awesome. I believe everything that you've said. You know, so there's still some unlocks that you're working through, which is like, I think the unlock from badass to something. I wonder what that is.

It's like you don't let go of being a badass, but like, what's that next version? Yeah. What's that next iteration of you? And it's probably going to be returning back to that feeling of being at home everywhere you go, you know, that sense of wholeness. Yeah, everything that I felt when I saw my mom for the first time in Ukraine was home. Oh, my God. I think that, that what you just did is that feeling is probably the most power, one of the most powerful. Anger is powerful. So I don't want to diminish it, but it's just like when you play with fire, you get burned. Yeah. And it's not sustainable and it's draining and in and it. But that feeling is like benevolent and lifegiving and amazing and far deeper. And so I wonder how you'll play with that insight. Let's catch up again. Okay. Like I'm in your corner. I love what you're you're doing. I want people to buy your book, be part of your community. I feel fortunate

to spend this time. I'm stoked that you're doing work on the inner game, you know, with a sports psych. That's awesome. I wish everybody that same commitment in their own life. And then I just want again, I want to say thank you. Oh my gosh. Thank you so, so much. I feel like I could talk to you for like three hours. Thank you so much for letting me black blonde. Yeah, diddle. And then I want to make sure I get connected to your mom as well. Absolutely. Although she's a kind of person that literally, I guess the best way to describe her, she's like, you'll know her whole life story, the checkout line. And I'm like, Mom, they don't need to know where you went to school and just like what you did and what you ate last night. But to sum up my mom, she is one of those people that she'll give you the shirt off her back. And if it's that color you hate, she will find you that favorite color shirt after she took hers off. Like, she's just that person. That's really cool. Right. So where do you want to hope people go to, like, to support you and be part of your community?

Is it social? Is it a website? Obviously, it's the book. Social media at Oaxana Masters kind of everywhere or, yeah, learn about. You can learn a little bit about me, but I really hope that you feel empowered, if you read my story, to find your own superpower within the hard parts you have and tackle the world. All right. Let's go do it. Appreciate you, Exana. Thank you so much again. Okay, bye. Cheers. Next time on Finding Mastery, Tim Ferriss joins Dr. Javei for a refreshingly honest conversation about navigating self-doubt, ambition, and the art of letting go and why play might be

the antidote to modern overwhelm. Join us on Wednesday, August 27th and 9 a.m. Pacific. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no-cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're listening. Also, if you haven't already, please consider dropping us a review on Apple or Spotify. We are incredibly grateful for the support and feedback. If you're looking for even more insights, we have a newsletter we send out every Wednesday.

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