Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - From Jordan to Kobe: The Keys to a Championship Mindset with Mindfulness Coach George Mumford

Episode Date: June 16, 2025

What can we learn from the same person who helped unlock greatness in Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, and Phil Jackson? The answer is: a lot.Meet George Mumford — the mindfulness coach behind some of the most legendary names in sport. Known as “The Mindfulness Performance Whisperer,” George has worked with elite NBA players, Olympic athletes, world-class artists, and top-tier CEOs to help them master their inner game.This timeless episode from the Finding Mastery vault is as relevant today as ever. In a world filled with chaos, distraction, and performance pressure, George reminds us that our greatest growth comes not from pushing harder — but from turning inward.In this conversation, George shares:How dark moments can become doorways to deep transformationWhy vulnerability and mindfulness are powerful tools for performanceHow to embrace the masterpiece withinWhat he learned from working directly with Kobe Bryant, Phil Jackson, and MJWhy real strength starts with self-awareness and serviceWhether you're a coach, athlete, creative, or simply trying to live more intentionally — this conversation will challenge and inspire you.Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine: findingmastery.com/morningmindset!Follow on YouTube, Instagram, LinkedIn, and XSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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and that energy, that accomplishment is going to follow you. You don't know where it's going to take you, but it's going to take you where you need to go. What if I told you there was a golden thread between Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, and Phil Jackson? And what if I told you he goes by the name of George Mumford? Welcome back. Welcome to the Finding Mastery podcast, where we dive into the minds of the world's greatest thinkers and doers.

I am your host, Dr. Michael Gervais, by trade and training a high-performance psychologist. And the idea behind these conversations is quite simple. To sit with the extraordinaries. To really learn about how they work from the inside out. And today, we are doing just that. By bringing back a conversation from the Finding Mastery Vault with the legendary George Munther. Obviously, you had a lot that you imparted and helped Kobe through his life. What did you learn from him?

He taught me how to trust that and the tenacity and never quitting and committing and being creative about his approach to things. He had this ability to expand things. Say, I'm going to do this and I don't have to back away from it, but to see it as an opportunity. George is one of the most revered mindfulness teachers in elite sport. By guiding people through their inner terrain of self-discovery to help them be more present in their lives. I didn't see myself as a trailblazer. I was just doing what was in front of me.

I knew that if I wanted to really learn about this stuff, I had to teach it. And the second thing I knew is if I wanted to keep it, I had to give it away. So the best thing I could do is share my experience, strength, and hope and just keep serving. We're re-releasing this episode now because, well, the world does not feel any less chaotic than when we first aired it. And George's message that our darkest moments can become the doorway to deep transformation is more relevant than ever. Let's jump into this week's conversation from the vault with my dear friend, George Mumford. I have a legend. George Mumford is in the studio today. It's been so fun

to see your work and to know your work and your book Unlocked is awesome. So you came from a different place than your first book. And this book, I'm just so happy for you that you were able to get what you got down in writing for so many of us to benefit from. So I'm stoked to have this conversation with you. And thank you for sharing Unlocked with us. You're welcome. And I'm happy to be here doing this with you. I feel like we go back a ways. i've been admiring your work so obviously your work and the work of so many others has influenced my work i don't know how you can do this without being able to piggyback or step on the shoulders of the giants to come before us. Man, that sense, so one, thank you very much.

And ditto, because you were a trailblazer early on, introducing this thing to elite sport, you know? And when most people weren't ready for it. And so I do wanna have a conversation about trailblazing and like how some of the headwinds and how you navigate those spaces because we're in a world right now that there's lots of headwinds. And I think people can benefit from your insights

on how to deal with challenges. Yes. So I would say you mentioned that I'm coming from a different place here. I think the experience of writing The Mindful Athlete, but also being in this space and understanding that there's a process to unlocking, just going through our challenges, and the challenges have a lot to do

with getting to the other side. So for me, I didn't see myself as a trailblazer. I just, after getting into recovery and dealing with chronic pain, I was just doing what was in front of me. I had no intention of being a trailblazer or anything, but I knew two things. I knew that if I wanted to really learn about this stuff, I had to teach it. And the second thing I knew is if I wanted to keep it, I had to give it away. So the best thing I could do is share my experience, strength, and hope and just keep serving.

And so that's what happened. People would come to me and say, hey, can you do this? And I would do it. And eventually I was in the corporate space, and eventually I left the corporate space to do this thing, do this process to share my journey. And so to me, it was me getting to that place where I was unlocking, coming from the hell realms,

and then, you know, to go from being in a shooting gallery or a crack house and being behind the bench of an NBA championship team. I mean, that's, that's unlocking. It is unlocking. And so it wasn't like my intention was to be a service, really. It was always about, and I believe my book, The Mindful Athlete, when I wrote that, took 20 years.

And I think what got me over the hump was I realized that I could help people. I couldn't do it for me, but I could do it for others. So this element of serving and just being willing to just meet things, embrace everything, and say yes to it, and then change roadblocks into stepping stones. So that's pretty much it. I didn't know, and I remember one of my teacher mentors, Jack Kornfield, said to me one time,

man, you brought mindfulness and performance in a way that no one's ever done that before. And I said, oh, I did, really? Because I wasn't self-conscious, you know, I was just really just doing what I knew to do. And my intention was to help. And by helping others, I was helping myself. So, I mean, here I am since I, you know,

I've been in recovery for going on 39 years this July, and I've averaged over a book a week during that time. And I have more enthusiasm and excitement about life than I've ever had. So this process is something that you can engage in, as Warren Bennett said in his book on becoming a leader, self-knowledge and self-invention are lifelong processes. So I feel like that's what I'm doing, just sharing my journey of self-discovery with people. And I believe that the greatest adventure we can be on

is getting to know ourselves better so that we can serve. Love that last part, to serve. Yeah. You have used your experiences and your unlocks, your insights. Unlock and insight, they're cousins to each other in many respects. You've used your unique unlocks and insights, your adventure in life, and the process that's helped you during that. That's kind of what you've done with other people. My point is that you've lived it and you shared your story.

Yes. And then you've shared how to help other people know their story. Okay. What is it like? Because you know that you and I are going to talk about painful times in your life. And not I, by the way, before we go there, the people I love most in this world are those that have gone through to the depths. They've been ragged around by the world and they've faced it and they've squared up with it and they have invested in themselves to heal they've turned

over their their need that they can solve everything themselves and they said i need to be vulnerable as a beginning step for strength and you've done it and you so beautifully have led from that place. So I say that because I come from a place that is really humbled by what it takes to do what you've done. And I'm talking about early life stuff. I'm not even talking yet about what you've done with the Bulls and the Lakers and the Knicks and, and, and, and, and, which is extraordinary stories of its own. But I just want to spend a moment on the early stuff. First I want to say, mom, 13 kids, huh? Mom went to 13 kids. 13 kids.

And what number were you? Number 10. Number 10. Yes. Okay, so you had a bunch of brothers and sisters before you. Eight sisters, four brothers. Eight sisters, four brothers. And you were Georgie Porgie.

I was Georgie Porgie. And so were you bullied no i wasn't bullied i don't i wouldn't say bullied i was uh encouraged to be tougher yeah um and i think the reason i don't think is being bullied because i think the intention was to make to help me navigate this thing called life in a certain way. And so being a young boy, young man, young child, having super sensitivity or being empathic and picking up other people's stuff, I really didn't know how to deal with that.

So they knew that I had to toughen up. And so I would say that's, I wouldn't say bully. I was sort of forged in the fire, if you will, baptism of the fire, just by saying, you have to be tougher, we're worried about you being able to survive in this world. Did you lose that empathic nature of yourself? Or did you, at any point in your, you know,

you're coming up or because you definitely have it now yeah yeah i i hit it you hit it i hit it i encrusted it in the shower we talked as uh i talk about i i was locked locked down i was locked in yeah because this is why you turn to drugs yes uh yes and so the drugs and the other stuff, for a lot of reasons, mainly because of pain. I was in pain. I was injury prone. I had a lot of issues. I had chronic stomach issues or GI issues because I didn't realize it was the stress of not being myself, the stress of just hiding and not being able to be true to who I was. But I didn't know I had that. So I was just reflecting on this the other day. And even now, to some degree, I'm still waiting for permission to be able to express myself. You still are? In little ways, yeah.

That's remarkable. Yeah. In other words, there's a process. There's times when, and now it's more subtle because it's like, okay. It's like you have, I forget what you call those light switches, the dimmer switches. Yeah, okay, it's like you have, I forget what you call those light switches, the dimmer switches. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's like I'm not all the way down where you can't see the light.

I'm up where the light is showing, but there's still some more room to grow. That's what I mean by that. And every once in a while, I'll get hints of, oh, wow, I'm waiting for permission. Or it's still not totally safe to be that vulnerable and express myself or to share, you know, let my light shine or what I call the masterpiece within being able to express that. Finding Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Solutions. In any high-performing environment that I've been part of, from elite teams to executive boardrooms, one thing holds true. Meaningful relationships are at the center of sustained success. And building those relationships, it takes more than effort.

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because i think yes i relate and i think a lot of people understand that permission thing which the only way i've worked through that is i had to say fuck it like i can't i can't do that i can't wait for the world to be just right for me to step in and be okay so i i wish this wasn't the case but i in the commitment to be honest like i wish i could say i was super fluid and just loving kindness just exuded out of me my whole but it's like i had to have an understanding of anger right because i was i didn't know another way to say i have i have to i want to change yes and i didn't know another way other than using some some agitation irritation downright anger sometimes how did you or how do you do it now yes feel that yes, it's this idea of creating this ability

to observe my experience uncritically. Uncritically? Yes, and notice it mindfully. And just noticing because part of this process is a revealing, a revelation. It's like there's things that are hidden and there's things that are going on that we don't know about until they manifest.

So when I say I'm still doing that, I'm meaning that I'm still unlocking and I'm still, it's like you have a bunch of stuff in the proverbial, well, not even the closet, but in the basement. And there's a lot of good stuff and stuff not so good in that basement. And so when you open that door, stuff's coming up. Some of the stuff that comes out is not helpful. Some of the stuff is helpful. So I don't know that I was hiding out until I realized,

oh, I've been hiding out. So, and that will be reflected in, okay, so you have this ability, but there's more there. What stops you from expressing it? Like you said, it's only when I can start to open and let that what's hidden reveal itself. And how do you do that? Well, interesting by like what I say, by embracing saying yes, whatever comes up and then generating the hope and asking the question, what is this? Or just pursuing excellence and wisdom with grace and ease. That's how I do it. I'm

trying to understand stuff. So helping others, seeing how other people get stuck and then reflecting, well, in what ways am I stuck? Or in what ways do I feel like I'm not fully self-expressed? But the process of unlocking is seeing where we're stuck and seeing where we're not really, we're kind of closing down or we're just, you know, we're not really, we're kind of closing down or we're just, you know, we're stuck in limbo, we're in survival mode. So how do, but how do you uniquely do it? And there's a two-parter to this.

Yes, yes. In the present moment when it flares. Yeah. Okay, and then also in the quiet recesses when you're alone. Yes. So there's two parts to the question. Like, how do you work through that?

I'll give you a prime example. I was working with the Lakers in 2010. They were playing the NBA championship against the Celtics. And when they come to town, I work with them. So we had a session that morning before Sunday game. And I was going into the room where we have breakfast and then there's the set up to watch film. And the voice said to me, you don't belong here.

They don't wanna hear from you. So trauma came and it was like like okay get out of here before they throw you out and i could just observe it like music you know like background music in a restaurant just notice it and just focus on serving doing what i needed to do so i kept it in the background just kept it open but i focused on what I wanted to do and what I knew to do. And I was able to perform and at the same time not beat myself up or worry about it. But that was something that came out of nowhere. Just under the conditions, things happen.

You open up, all of a sudden there's a negative committee or there's some trauma that you're feeling where your body wants to shut down. And the last thing you want to do is be vulnerable and get up in front of folks in a really critical time and talk to them about, you know, being in the moment and expressing yourself sincerely. So that's how I dealt with it. And then afterwards I just reflected on it.

And I noticed that this is what happens when you open a heart. There's stuff that comes out. And it's our ability to not push it away, not to pull it towards us, but to just let it speak to us in its own language and listen to what it has to say. But what's really happening is there's a healing going on. There's an ability of it getting sanitized by the light, as you will, and just holding it and not doing anything with it, but seeking to understand what it means

and how to relate to it in a way where I can actually teach and help other people who are going through things that are unexpected. But at the same time, the idea is to be in the moment, to see it and let it speak to you in its own language. And then there's a lesson there. There's a wisdom that comes out of that. There's a creativity that comes out of just being able to be still and know.

So does that make sense? And so it is that one way, but there's other ways I would do it depending on the situation, but here's the challenge and the adventure of it. I have no idea how it's going to happen, but it's going to happen. The way I handle it is going to be different. In other words, I have to trust the masterpiece within, the wisdom within. If I have mindfulness where I can let things speak to me in its own language

and understanding, knowing what am I supposed to do? I'm supposed to be in the moment, see what's happening and relate to it in a way that empowers me and be in the growth mindset. So it's something, it's an opportunity and it's a lesson. So much of what you described is aligned with how I approach it as well. There's a spontaneity that is wonderful.

And it also creates, that vulnerability creates space for things to pop up that might not be what you want to hear or see or feel. Yes, or convenient. Or that's convenient right now. That's a great phrase or a great idea. And so the present moment is where we're trying to spend as much time as we can but in the present moment like i'll not to be a dualist but there's negative and

positive there's like hardships and beauty that happened in the present moment right and it's for me it's the difference and i'll just string this back around it's the difference between the concept and sport and maybe business of being clutch versus being in a flow, you know, like the slipstream of flow, which is effortlessly adjusting, eloquently adjusting to the unfolding, and clutches like this, I'm gonna dominate, like I'm a force of will, you know,

and it's a little bit, well, it's a very different approach. And you're spending much more time and interest in being in the slipstream of flow as opposed to clutch. I'm not picking. I'm going to use the one that works. Yeah, yeah. You see what I'm saying? There's a wisdom that knows when I got to step up there with much assertiveness and just meet the force that's coming at me with force,

even though it's coming out of love, but it's still dynamic and it's still intense. So it's not judging. I had an experience, you know, cause I grew up in a certain part of town and I remember- Which is code for? For I grew up in the inner city, in the I remember- Which is code for? For I grew up in the inner city

in the tough neighborhoods. Which is code for? It's hell, whatever. That's it. Yeah, hell. It was a doggy dog. It was very much this kind of situation. And I was, what was I doing?

I was going to a part of Boston. It was the North End. And I'm walking with my girlfriend. And I'm seeing a drug dealer go down. And I'm seeing shaky characters. How old are you? I was, let me see, that was like 87. So I was probably 36 or something like that.

Okay. And I went into my street mode and my girlfriend said, well, what's wrong? Cause she see me, I went into this, what you talked about, the clutch mode. And she said, what's wrong? And I said, oh, nothing. But me going into clutch mode prevented people

when they knew, oh, he knows, he sees us, leave him alone. Don't go there with him because he's not one of these, you know, guys that don't know what time it is. He knows what time it is. And I felt embarrassed by it at first, because I felt like, oh, I don't want that side, that part of my life where I'm in the jungle and I gotta be a lion and I gotta meet force with force.

I felt, you know, like, okay, I thought I had evolved beyond that. But then I realized, no, that's your inner wisdom telling you that you had to go into that energy mode so that you could neutralize the forces that are out there so that I didn't have to go through. Because as soon as they see, oh, okay, he knows, once they see that I'm a lion also, then they back down. But it's me just being timid and trying to ignore it

instead of opening to it and saying, okay, this is a survival skill. That's the reptilian brain kicking in to help me. So that reptilian brain, even though it's fight, flight, and freeze, and it's in survival, if I'm walking across the street and a car's coming, that's the thing that moves me out of the way

without me having to reflect on what should I do. Speaking of being clutch. Yeah. Speaking of being great in difficult situations, I'm gonna bring up Kobe now. Was Kobe more clutch or was he more about the flow slipstream? I think he's more about the flow and the slipstream.

Effortless effort? Yes. But at the same time, that was the work we did. But I think you come around to it at some point, and each person has had that experience. But sometimes, like I said, when you get met with clutch, sometimes your reaction is to be clutch instead of just being more like Aikido or Tai Chi,

just use the energy against them, be like water and just flow with it, embrace it in a way where you don't have to meet force with force. So yeah, he definitely learned that lesson. Obviously you had a lot that you imparted and helped Kobe through his life and it's a good relationship as i've come to understand for you guys what what did you learn

from him what did i learn from him i learned from him is that you have to meet people where they are you have to meet him where he is and help lead him. They call that leading and pacing in neurolinguistic programming, NLP. It's always about meeting people as they are, not trying to change them, but helping him to unlock, helping him to be his best version of himself. And so to me, he taught me how the trust that and the tenacity and the never quitting and committing and being creative about his approach to things. He had this ability to expand things and say, I'm going to do this and I don't have to back away from it, but to see it as an opportunity and to meet that challenge with intelligence, with heart, and with a strong will.

When there's a challenge, he sees it as an opportunity as opposed to a threat. Yes. He's got a tenacity and a deep trust, it sounds like. Right. The trust is so I can let go and to have effortless effort. And then a tenacity, which is, I'm curious how those two work together.

And then was he trying to be, and I don't want to undersell or give any discount to the first thing I said, which is when there's a challenge, seeing it as an opportunity versus a threat. That, as Einstein has shared, like there's a fundamental decision we all have to make. The world is either hostile or safe, right? Oh, you mentioned that in Unlock as well.

So I've paraphrased, I've paralleled that insight to say, we all have a fundamental decision to make in life is, am I going to approach success or avoid failure? And so he was approaching success, seeing challenges as opportunities. Opportunities for being his best or opportunities to be the best? His best. If he's in this conversation, he would say, yeah, yeah, that's it. It is best because to be the best,

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for 20% off. I'm nodding. Checking. Yes, yes, yes, yes. And people often ask me, and I'm curious how you'll respond, and I'll say how I answer as well. It's like, what do you mean, your best? What do you mean by that? What is the best? Why are we talking about versions? Why aren't we talking? So there's a subtlety in language here that I think can, if we're not careful, becomes amorphous and escapes and escapes the concreteness required of, I know what it means. You know what this means.

Kobe knew what this means. Okay, so how do you describe? Being your best. being your best? Yeah, it's creating space between stimulus and response. And in that space, you have the freedom and power to choose and align it with your values and the goal that you have. So being your best means based on the intel you have, your mindfulness and the wisdom, knowing the basic essentials and what your goal is, being your best, meaning having an intention

and being able to express it honestly or sincerely or authentically. Honestly, George, I can't remember the last time we got deep on some ideas. It was probably at Wisdom. And Wisdom 2.0, the conference. And we think so much alike. It's quite remarkable, actually. Because we've come from very different approaches. And so it's refreshing and also startling in some respects.

I go, yeah, yeah, yes. So why do you think I said what I said at the beginning of this? Now you understand what I said? No, yeah, yes. So why do you think I said what I said at the beginning of this? Now you understand what I said? Well, no, I don't. When I said giants and you, see, because you meet what you mirror, and also when you can see the greatness in others, that means you can see the greatness in yourself. I'm uber humbled.

And at the same time, where I was going with it is that i've i've had this pretty rich understanding i i hope you'll co-sign it but you might not because you've spent so much time with like greats is that game recognizes game and so you can see it based on what you just said so yes check it and then the other is that it feels like there is a language that is unique to people that understand and have committed their life towards their very best towards unlocking to use your phrase it's actually the tag that we've been using in our business for a long time unlocking the potential within that's how we talk about it and by the way my mission my personal philosophy is every day is an opportunity to create a living masterpiece.

I mean, so the parallels here are phenomenal. But let me go back to my point, is that game recognizes game and there's a shared language. And that we end up talking about the same things in a very similar way, independent of the industry or craft, but it's that pursuit that gets to that shared language. And have you found that to be true? Or would you say that a violinist that's trying to be his or her very best and a basketball player and an entrepreneur and a rabbi are going to talk about distinctly different things? Well, they're talking about the same thing, but they're using the language that they're accustomed to. So if you have a PC, you're going to use a certain software.

If you use a Mac, you're going to use the iOS. You're going to use a certain software. But the end result is the same. It's just that how you can talk about it, it might be different. But it's the same thing because our perception, my conditioning, and my state of mind are going to have an impact on what I can see, what my perception is of on any given day. And so on some level, it's about if you're really present and you're really sincere and you're really vulnerable,

you'll see what's there. And the truth will set you free. And it will scare the shit out of you. Yes, no, yes, because that's the part. I talk about it a little bit in the book, but I don't think we give it enough emphasis. And that is one side of the coin is freedom. The other side of the coin is uncertainty and anxiety. And so there's, and this goes back to Kierkegaard,

Soren Kierkegaard, 1846, he called it the alarming possibility of being able. When we embrace that, so what's the anxiety tell us? So to change, it's a lesson. If we walk through it, not only do we get to the other side, but we build up resilience to be able to do it again and again and again. Because that's what's required is people think,

oh, you've got this good achievement. Yeah, that's great. But there's some anxiety and uncertainty, and there's some people that aren't happy with you achieving what you achieved for whatever reason. So I don't have to, if you talk about the Buddha being stoned, Christ being crucified, I don't need to say any more than that. There's always going to be somebody that doesn't like the light.

And so being able to be true to yourself and do what you know to do and to embrace the anxiety and uncertainty and to use it as a lesson or like a doorway, you just walk through it. But like a doorway you just walk through it but i'm not saying you walk through it painlessly because i like to say no struggle no swag so it's going to be a struggle and if you're struggling you're learning and that's how you build up your strength so without both sides of the coin you don't have the result you gotta have both yeah so i talk about this like if you think about building capacity to be able to handle more right is that there's a panic feeling there's that there's an edge that we need to get to and stay in that edge as long as we can that pant and it

feels like it's the panic signal is what it's a trip wire for anxiety but it's panicking and most people want to just retreat find high ground right now do whatever i can and the extraordinaries as you'll come to recognize and you yourself being one of those to be able to stay in that space as long as i possibly can as long as you can and then what i found is that what they do is they instead of going so they there's an extended period of time in that panic. And instead of dipping all the way back down to comfort, they stay in that edgy space, but decrease it and then push back up because they know how hard it is to get there. And that's where all of the truth telling takes place. That's right. Okay.

So I call it getting comfortable with being uncomfortable. Yeah. I feel like that gets thrown around so much. Yeah, but what I mean by that is, is you build up an endurance and a tolerance of discomfort because here's the interesting thing. Wait, wait, before you get the insight, what is uncomfortable for you? It depends.

It depends what you're talking about. What's uncomfortable for me, it varies, but what's uncomfortable for me is um pain physical pain physical pain or emotional pain or whatever or just being in the unknown that's just not just not knowing and having to trust that things are going to work out do you believe that they're going to work out yes but then even with that belief system when you're in unknown, like I don't know what you're about to say and you don't know what I'm about to say. So in this unknown, what are you trusting?

I'm trusting that if I embrace whatever comes up, generate the hope that even if I make a mistake, I'm gonna learn from it. So it's not about making a mistake, it's about saying yes to it and being present for it and doing the best I can do, you know, based on what I know now, but trusting that it's going to be a learning opportunity, that everything, that the universe is friendly and I'm aligned with how things are. So I don't have to deny or destroy or remove anything.

I just need to be still and know I need to stay in that eye of the hurricane and I'm gonna see what I need to see. And there's a wisdom in creativity that comes out of that silence that is powerful and helps me to get to change the roadblock into a stepping stone. Okay, so that's how your process works and

then let's imagine let's and i see why athletes would say yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah right like yeah yeah yeah yeah ceo's too ceos too and let me add an element to it it's just athletics is so concrete where ceos it's um it's it's less observable, their performance, right? You see the outcome quite amazingly from Wall Street or whatever. But let's say that you add another layer of intensity is if you don't deliver today, let's say in this conversation, just like an athlete has finals or tryouts or whatever, that you don't get the reward, the external reward, the later reward. You might get the internal unlock,

but you might not make the team. You might actually like lose a bonus. You might fill in the blanks on the external later rewards. How do you help folks through that? Like I'm thinking, I know how much time you spent with Michael Jordan. So how would you, I don't't know Michael and what a force though. Steve Kerr told me a story now about when he and Michael were practicing. And Steve, like the way, before I get to the question,

Steve says to me, he goes, Mike, it was intense practicing with Michael. He says, practices were way more intense than games because i had to go against the most fierce competitor in basketball maybe on the planet every day yes he says he tells about this one story which i'm sure you know about i think you were with the team during this time but jordan's dribbling the ball up this in practice and um you know steve's trying to guard him and jordan you know steps to left right uh fade away puts it in and kind of looks at steve like okay what are you gonna do now next play down michael runs the same kind of jab step move fade away and it looks at

him again like what are you doing third play in a row same move jab step fade away and then walks up to steve and is like, what's wrong with you? When are you going to step up? When are you going to stop bullshitting around? I'm paraphrasing here. And then unloads on him, gives him a right cross right into his jaw. And so Steve says to me, Mike, it's kind of different being around these guys. It was very different being around Jordan on a day-to-day basis. So when I'm asking that question, I'm coming from Steve's perspective and kind of obviously what I know historically about Michael.

How would you help him when he's got that deep drive to be, I think he wants to be the best. I think Kobe was about being personal best, but it feels like Michael wants to be the best. How did you help him through that, if my assumption is right? Yes, so it's always about you competing against your previous best self.

So you're right, you can do your best and have a great game and still not win or still not make the team. That's my definition of a winner. Is? Because you did everything you could do and the result is a result and there's some good that came out of that that's going to carry you in some other area and maybe

it's like i'm thinking of uh was it tony gonzalez yeah basketball was yeah great tight ends yeah but basketball was his first love that's right and he was you know and he was he was really good at it but but he wasn't great at it and no actually i think he was at the and he was good at it. He was really good at it, but he wasn't great at it. North Carolina? No, actually, I think he was at Cal. Was he at Cal? Yeah, I think he was at Cal. Okay.

Because my nephew used to train him when he was a basketball player. Okay. So you could say- I can hear our fact checkers right now. Yeah, so think about this. Yeah, but think about it this way, where we went. Then we can go with Antonio Gates.

I can name a bunch of these basketball players. Jim Graham. Jim Graham. Yeah, I remember playing against him when he was at Miami. No, I mean, I was working with Boston College. So I meant our team playing against him. So I know all these guys, Antonio Gates. You know, we played against him.

Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day. And Cozy Earth has become a new part of that. Their bedding, it's incredibly soft, like next level soft. And what surprised me the most is how much it actually helps regulate temperature. I tend to run warm at night and these sheets have helped me

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And that energy, that accomplishment is going to follow you. And it's going to lead to something else. So it may be, like for me, I got hurt playing basketball. And, you know, injured, couldn't play. Ended up getting addicted to pain meds and illegal drugs. And here I am. So, yeah, what an adventure you've had. You don't know where it's gonna take you,

but it's gonna take you where you need to go. I know where I, counterpoint, I know where I wanna go. I wanna be in the amphitheater, I want the ball in my hand and I want to drain it. And I hear you, George, but like, what's all this stuff? Like, I want to be great every moment of my, you know, so, okay, count. Yeah. So my whole point is, so yeah, you can be great, but sometimes we, well, we don't, it's not the results, it's the effort. That's all we can control is our effort and our attitude and the results that happen are going to happen. But the thing is, that's when you're still locked up.

You're still locked because you think it should be this way instead of being with what is. I'm down with it. And so when you've got somebody who is relentless that would beat up a teammate because they're not demonstrating that they're solving the problem. I'm talking about Jordan. Yeah. Was Jordan like, I get you? Or was Jordan like, okay, you want me to switch everything up? Like, how did that go?

No, it went because I talk about, you know, what do you want and who do you need to be to do what you want to do? So let's just talk about that situation with Steve Kerr. That's not necessarily who he is. He got... That's not who Michael is. Yeah, yeah. It was a moment in time.

That's a moment where the clutch took over from the flow. Using your language. Yeah. Okay? So all of us can have a moment of unclarity or what I call the hindrances where greed or aggression took over and he wasn't able to see clearly and be in the moment. This is why you add the word grace. Yes. To your personal philosophy, right well that's that's one of

the reasons yeah that's one of the reasons because you have to have grace and you realize when you know better you do better so even the grace make mistakes and maybe you push it too much but the whole idea is to know that you push it too much and apologize and and redo reset and then and then you know that's the thing. Forgiveness is really important. So, okay, I'm sorry I did that. I was out of control. But that was just a moment in time. That's not who I really am.

It was just that I got hijacked. I got emotionally hijacked. You know how that works. 100%. So when you're in fight, flight, or freeze, or when you're not in love and a willingness to compete. And, you know, you got to know Michael's psychology. Usually when he comes at you like that, you got to come back at him.

And even if you push him and knock him down, then he would say, okay, now this guy got to fight. So now I know that he's going to be in the trenches with me when it gets tough. He's not going to be, you know, going to back off. So that might be his psychology. I don't know, I haven't talked to him about it, but I will say this, that when you make a mistake like that and when you cross the line, which is very easy to do

when you're in that clutch, as you talked about, once you cross it, that's not a problem as long as you apologize and you forgive and forget, and then you begin again. So that's the thing. So we get this idea, we keep locking us or locking us into a way of being because we had an activity. So we got to separate the action from the person. You see what I'm saying? But we don't do that. It's convenient for us to say, oh, he's just like that, or he's a bully, and he's this and that.

And you got to look at the content and the context of what's happening. We don't do that. We take the content and put it in any context and think it's equal. It's not. It has to be at a certain time. Plus, we don't know what MJ was going on in his mind. And we don't know what his relationship with Kurt

was off of the court, which might influence what happened on the court. I'm not saying they did, but I'm just saying that possibility exists.'s right yeah i understand i love the context and content um perspective i like i really appreciate that because things that were happening 200 years ago would never fly now right and so or let's call it 600 years ago would never fly now and so yeah so i really appreciate that so let's go true so let's go best self true self small self okay so best self we're saying like there's this um tension

to get up into that experience of best self there's a tension of letting go and trusting required so it's not all you can't force your way into best self. I think, I think you're not- You can't force yourself in the flow. The best way to get in the flow is to not to try to get in the flow. That's right. Best way to write a book after 20 years is stop trying to write a book.

How long did it take you to write your new book, Unlocked? Probably months, maybe. Well, it's a long story. It was a long process. I had to get a new collaborative writer, but it went pretty quick. Probably six months. That's flowing. Something like that, seven months.

Yeah. So best self, okay. And the way that you talk about stimulus and response and in between having the space to make choices that are aligned with your, I call it first principles and you call it values, I think. So I'm interested in virtues and first principles, and those are kind of the bumpers to be able to navigate. Now let's go true self versus small self. So this is where I get sometimes confused about true self is because right now, if I'm kind and loving, it's my true self. And also if I'm pissed off and agitated, it is my true self it's not my highest self okay so is best self and true self and small self are you do you say best and true are the same actually and we're competing against small self well i want to just say that all of those are constructs see probably the issue we're having here is that we want to talk about the nonlinear in a linear way. So you can get tripped up with all of that, with this self and that self and whatever,

but the only self I'm interested in, well, I'm interested in all of them, but just to know when you're being true to yourself to let an own self be true, you know when you're out of character and when you're in character character and you got to understand that we're human beings we're even who we say we are we're changing wait wait you just said something cool you said true to your character is that what you just said no to yourself for yourself but would you how'd you say it about character you're in character yeah you're in character. In other words, like, if my intention is to be loving and I was just unloving, then all I need to do is just, you know better, you do better.

How do I get back on track? Because a lot of these guidance missiles, these guidance systems, they have to do with negative feedback. So nothing's straight. It's zigzag. You get off, you get back on. That's what I mean. So you know you were out of love, get back into love.

Okay, or get back into just fully, honestly expressing yourself. And you're going to get angry, you're going to get tripped up, but we can have these labels about it, but we are becoming. So even who we think we are, we're more than that. Like I just said to myself. So the idea is, it's helpful for me to talk about doing something that's helpful or not helpful, not to judge it. And to say, when you're your true self or when you're yourself, where you get beyond the illusion of separateness and the other then that's what i'm talking about when you see eye on the other one and when you get beyond that illusion and you can just be now there's times when that happens like say 9 11 people run into the building marathon bombing people running towards the explosion not away

when the young man i forget his name that had a heart attack in football i mean you know hamlin hamlin everybody went beyond the game wasn't that important everybody went beyond that we get beyond that so the real question is how can we have more of those experiences where we get back to what really counts is like loving each other and competing helping us can compete with each other bring the best out of each other, meaning competing in the right way based on values of not losing our humanity, but actually not withholding, but actually competing in a way

where we're bringing out the best in each other. And so this is totally different. So when we have this best self, little self, small self, when I talk about being real or the big S, the big self, little self, small self. When I talk about being real or the big S, the big self, is when you realize that there's an illusion of separateness that we need to go beyond and realize that how I treat the other person is how I want to treat myself. So if I want love, I got to be love. If I want peace, I got to be peace. If I want kindness, I have to be kind. So if I'm got to be peace if I want kindness I have to be kind

So if I'm being hostile to you, that's what's gonna come back to me Yeah, and so when I'm being hostile when I have those hindrances, there's no ability to Be present and to see clearly so obviously I'm not being my true self if the true self is Knowing the truth and letting it to make you free. In other words, just seeing the other person as a spirit, somebody has a masterpiece, somebody who wants to be happy just like I do, somebody who suffers like I do. We have to get to that point. Now, that might sound Pollyanna-ish,

but one reason I relate to people and I relate to you, I'm relating to your masterpiece. I'm not relating to your persona. And so you might say, oh, you know, yeah, that, no, but what I'm talking about is the greatness that's inside of you. I'm embracing that. And if I embrace it in you, I'm going to embrace it in me. It doesn't mean we don't have a struggle or conflicts or we don't have disagreements. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about honoring that you're seeing things the way you're seeing things. And if I saw things the way that you saw things,

I see what you were seeing. So we have to get to that point where we realize that that's why it's important to be able to get out of the box and just notice and just say, okay, so how might Mike be feeling? And if I saw, how is he seeing things? And once I see how you're seeing things everything's clear is This how you work across teams? Helping to create this stitching between people it all depends

It all depends but yeah In other words, this is part of my repertoire is part of part of what I do But here's the thing and when i went on my book tour for the mindful athlete people got frustrated with me because they wanted me to give them a formula and the formula is there is no formula just being present and and letting things speak to you and then out of that insight now you're acting because once you see clearly you can behave clearly so good actions need good images or good understanding of what's happening. Great actions need great images, needs more clarity.

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because quality sleep is just too important to leave to chance. Let's do great teams for a minute. Okay. What is your understanding of a great team? And before I make an assumption, have you been part of great teams? Yes. Yeah. I've seen winning teams, but it doesn't mean they're great. Yes. Great teams. Great teams. Okay. So what is your understanding of, let's do two parts to it, the becoming of a great team and the expression of a great team. And you can please start in either way. Well, you have to have shared values, obviously. So core values and worthy cause are really important. That's it.

Is winning enough? No, no. So I'll just take the Chicago Bulls for an example. How many years were you with them? Five. During which five? 93 to 98. So the second three-peat. Okay. So I was there when Jordan was going and we had to pick up the pieces and keep it moving. So I would say if you look at that, I like to use that,

and hopefully Phil's okay with me sharing it. But when he took over for the Bulls, the first thing he had to do is get the team to understand that synergy, the whole is greater than some of the individual parts. And that when you're a great player, you make teams better. So he had talked to them about sharing power and sharing vision. And so when he got them,

there's a book called Tribal Leadership and it talks about the five stages. So the five stages are life sucks. I'm gonna put it that way. My life sucks is stage two, where you get around other people who talk about how their life sucks. I'm great and you're not. That's like the glass ceiling.

It's like anything that is a threat, I deny, I destroy, I remove. We're great, they're not, that's stage four. And then stage five is life is great. So I summarize it, but that's basically it. So as a leader, those different levels are gonna get you different results. So obviously to win three-peats, and I've been with teams that won three three-peats. And I've been with teams that won three three-peats

and came really close to winning a fourth three-peat. It's about when your life is great, that's when you can sustain excellence for a sustained period of time. And so you could say that the Bulls were at stage three, where, well, when they won the championship, they weren't, but initially it was like Michael and Jordan, so it was I'm great and you're not.

That's first stage three. So he had to take them from stage three to we're great and they're not, to stage five, which life is great. And so the way you do that is you have worthy, you have core values and a worthy goal. This is how we're gonna be together. We're sharing, you know core values and a worthy goal. This is how we're gonna be together.

We're sharing, you know, like five fingers on the hand. We're gonna support each other and all of that stuff. So you work on this commitment on values and a shared vision and that sort of thing. And so the goal, so you have to go from stage three to stage four, we're great. And then when you get to stage five, life is great. And if you can sustain that, that's how you three-peat.

Okay? And you can see that that happens. So you can have great teams, but what's the definition of a great team? The way the Celtics were winning, I grew up in Boston, so the way the Celtics were winning those eight championships, my friends would say, well, the other team's better, but they lose. Well, Bill Russell said the best team always wins. So it's the synergy.

You may not have the same quality of individual players, but how you support each other, how you play, how you share, not only value, but love and respect and all those things, but core values and a worthy cause. Everybody's in line with that cause. That cause is whatever that is. And so you need that to matriculate through those stages. You don't go from stage three to stage five right away. It takes time. What do you do when somebody is a high earner? They're a high flyer. They are one of the best in the world at what they do. They're on the team and the team has ambitions

to be great, but you've got an unreasonable in some respects, because I think most of the best in the world are rather unreasonable. And I can explain that later. But when you've got an unreasonable, exacting, high standard, high commitment to excellence performer on the team, and they don't always play well with others, how do you work through that? And it's a larger question about what gets in the way of being a great team. And I'm just kind of narrowing it down. Yes, yes, yes. Well, that person has to be willing to

commit to the same core values. Like sharing a ball, you know, play a movement, ball movement, all of those things. And when you don't have that, then that's a problem. What core values

do you feel most aligned to? Okay, let's talk about, let's use Steve's core values that I know he talks about. Steve Kerr. Steve Kerr. I think it's mindfulness, joy, compassion, competition. That's it. Okay.

So those are sort of grooves for engagement you might say and so and you can see when they didn't win championships they weren't in joy maybe

they might not have had right mindfulness they might have been mindful of what's wrong but they weren't playing with joy they weren't compassionate and they weren't competing and so

those values so everybody has to be in alignment with that and usually it can't come from the coach it has to come from the individual so everybody has to be in alignment with that. And usually it can't come from the coach. It has to come from the individual. So it has to come from the grassroots. So when you do that and then you commit to those,

then when something happens, those core values are going to kick in and say, okay, so, okay, if I'm going to go trade for somebody or if I'm going to draft somebody, if they don't have those core values, you shouldn't be drafting them. i was i was with um helping it well i was helping a gm this is a fun story and uh the gm says um like we're we're walking through the draft and people are going to try to guess the team but they won't be able to do it and um he says i think i might make a trade here but i'm afraid i'm making a trade with the devil. There's a high talent, high flower, flyer,

and doesn't really fit, but I think we can get him to be part of the team. And I was like, oh boy. Even the whole construct of it was problematic. It did not work out well. But I understand the temptation. Yes. Right?

I understand it. And so you would advise from the outset, if your intuition is going that direction. Yeah, but this is not personal. This is about, this is like, if they're in line with your values, then that'll work. Or it won't, let me put it this way, doesn't mean you're gonna win the championship,

but it won't disrupt the team chemistry. And I have a lot of coaches say to me, I don't know what team chemistry is, but I know when I have it. How about it? And I know when I don't have it. Because we're all talking about it. Yeah, we know we're talking, yeah.

So it's really about, so this is the thing, it's about, it's the inside game, right? It's about having people that align with your values and they're interested and they're worthy because they might be just interested in just going to a lot of points or making a lot of money. You have to get clear about that. So how does a high-performing team take place?

You say, we're going to work on shared values and clear goals. Yeah. I think you use... Yeah, but you need integrity people with integrity and learners, and learners for likes learners people who are willing to be flexible and want to learn and that to me i'll put it this way and i was talking to somebody about this don't compete create that's unbelievable you just said that it was the name of my former company that's unbelievable yeah i'll just say it, you know, but I'm just saying, so when you get people,

you have to figure out, and there's, you know, the book by the all blacks, I forget the name of the title of the book, but, but they had a chemistry problem that you gotta, you gotta have,

you know, sweep in the sheds. Everybody does certain things that you have to understand. Legacy, I think is the name of the book. So, so just really quickly on that is that friendly with some of the coaching staff there. And they, enough of them the name of the book. So just really quickly on that, is that Friendly was some of the coaching staff there. Okay. And enough of them won't read that book.

Interesting. That I haven't read it. Okay. And so there was like, I don't think this is wildly known, but they didn't feel like it was captured in the right way. And so I haven't read it. And I've heard there's a lot of good in there.

Yeah, there's a lot of good in there. But it could have been better, is what you're saying. No, that it was a little dubious on how it happened. And listen, I don't know the author. I don't even know the author's name. And I'm not saying it's the author. But there was something there that enough of them were like, we're not reading that thing.

I was like, well, all right. Yeah, well, that's unfortunate because sometimes, yeah, it's hard to know what people's thinking is, you know, what goes on behind the scenes and whatnot. And it's interesting because truth is universal. That's a shared language. Yes. And I go on principles.

Why? Because principles are timeless and self-evident, and they don't change. How do you help people clarify their principles that matter most to them? They got to go inside. That's right. Be still and know what's their heart. So their mind, body, heart, and soul has to be in alignment. So they have to exercise all four aspects of their being. You know, like physically, we get that.

Mentally, gotta get that one, the heart. Emotions and relationships and the spirit or the soul, you know, contribution and meaning. All of that stuff is really important. And so I'd say you gotta start with the person knowing who they are. So I would say- Do you know how long that takes?

Yes. I agree with you. I'm laughing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But here's the thing. That's ongoing. But here's the thing. But here's the thing.

Even if you don't know who you are, if you align with principles, you'll get there. How about it? You know, if we just talk about love or whatever, but here's the thing. The thing is, you got to at least know, number one, you got to accept personal responsibility and two, know that you make choices. Even if you don't make a choice, you're making a choice. So you got to start with those two. And then you got to be willing to look at your stuff, the good, the bad, the ugly, and understand what you do well and leverage that and what you need to improve on to do that. But I would say my formula is you gotta know yourself

to be yourself, to express yourself, to share yourself. Something I talk about a bunch is that, like I wanna be an honest man, okay? And so honesty is a principle that matters to me and honesty with myself, honesty with others. And sometimes it's hard and it's probably unbecoming to say that, but I want to present a certain way. I don't always want to face the hard truth, you know? And so there's easy ways to navigate through being dishonest, which isn't immoral or egregious egregious but it's

like not confronting the thing that needs to be maybe confronted that would be to meet dishonest mm-hmm and so I'm not saying like lying about something but just not being fully committed to the hard experience okay so honesty is one and then there's there's other ones that i'm practicing as well creating is a first principle kindness is a first principle for me and i can go on and share a couple others i don't those are the ones i'm practicing now i can i can practice them for a while and then i can practice a whole three or five other ones so for me it's not permanent it doesn't mean that i'm shape-shifting.

It means that I'm picking a couple that I'm finding are going to have high value and high attunement for me right now. And I want to get better at them. And then I could insert another one later. When I say that to you, what happens for you? Do you say, oh yeah, that sounds like a good approach? Self-honesty is where the confidence comes from.

Self-honesty is the most important thing know the truth the truth shall make you free and do not know himself be true so even if we're not being honest with ourselves and we're presenting there's a lack of integrity integrity is power or integrity is workability so being integrous or having integrity was mean saying what you mean and meaning what you say. If you line up your thoughts, words, and actions, I think those are the most powerful people. And you're talking about integrity, that alignment.

Yeah, yeah. So it's like if the bridge doesn't have integrity, you're not gonna drive over it. Yeah, and if your teammate or partner doesn't have integrity, you're not gonna roll with it as well. Yeah, or you have to understand, you gotta verify. But even though you have to have faith, but you have to verify it.

But there's something about trusting and helping people by marrying, by being the billboard on integrity or trust and honesty, being honest even when it's hard to be honest. But at the same time, it's a process, a working process. But I think the most important thing is to know when you're not being honest even when it's hard to be honest. But at the same time, it's a process, a working process. But I think the most important thing is to know when you're not being honest and what impact it has on you. See, because that's the teaching right there. Not that you should or, you know, you want to be an honest man.

It's more about you notice that honesty is the best policy, especially self-honesty is so huge that without the self-honesty, then you can't be honest. I mean, that's really important. And these are not easy things. But like I like to say, no struggle, no swag. You got to work for it. This is not something.

I got swag. I earned it. I earned it. So you got to earn it. You can't just get it. You got to earn it because it's not true it. Because if it's not true swag, and if it's not true swag, then you're not gonna have the power.

You're not gonna have the presence of being able to do things. As soon as you poke somebody like that, it kind of falls into a thousand pieces, if it's not honest. Fake it till you make it. You fake it, you might not make it. It's really simple.

Act as if. Fake it as you make it. You won't make it. And you're already telling. It's really simple. Act as if. Fake it as you make it, you won't make it. And you're already telling yourself it's a lie. So your subconscious is gonna be relating to it like you're not worthy and it's not doable. So fake it till you make it is a poor substitute. The real deal is to act as if. I, my skin crawls when I hear the phrase, fake it till you make it.

Fake what? Fake a principle? Fake yourself? Fake an ad? I don't want a fake handbag. I don't want anything fake. There's nothing that's going to hold up and be durable enough as a fake. There's nothing that's going to hold up and be durable enough as a fake. And so that idea, anyone listening to this right now, like George, I'm nodding my head. That's a whack way to go

through life. And so I'm saying the same thing that it's a tragedy that people are considering that that's the way to get through, to get over. All you're doing is getting over on yourself and practicing a way that is leading you further away is getting over on yourself and practicing a way that is um leading you further away from authenticity right that's a lockdown that's a lock those are four cold walls aren't they yeah all right so who do you know that is incredibly honest that is one of the best in the world, that holds that emblem at the forefront? Well, I don't know if I can answer that because I don't know all the information,

but I mean, as far as them being able to speak and just it seems to align, I think there's moments of honesty. I don't think you can say one person is totally honest and is the emblematic of the honest. Now I got to start talking about the Buddha and Jesus Christ and folks like that. But I feel like if my intention is to be honest,

I probably know myself better than anybody else, and I say, you know, on a good day I can do it. But there's moments when you can't, especially when it comes to family or whatever. But to me, it's not so much of being honest, it's the intention of being honest. And when you're not honest, to learn from it and to correct it.

See, because we had this thing about integrity. When we get out of integrity, they were always out of integrity and you can't trust that person. I'm here to say that when you're out of integrity, all you gotta do is get back in integrity. It's that simple. If Phil Jackson was here,

who I know you have a long relationship with, what would, how would he insert himself or be part of this conversation? What would he add to this conversation? He'd probably be kind of saying what I'm saying. Yeah, you guys have a rich partnership, don't you? Yes, we have, 30 years. How fun is that?

Yeah, it's cool. And it's keeping, and that's the thing about having friends because you know we have blind spots like our cars and having friends that are able to call us on our stuff and say, hey man, what's up with that? It's interesting, several years back, my roommates in college were obviously Julius Irving, Dr. J, and Al Skinner. And Skinner was coaching at Kennesaw State.

It's crazy to drop that in there. Yeah, it's good. But anyway, so I hadn't seen Doc in a while. So we were all at the game. And after the game, we're talking. And this is, we go back to like college and it's just holding each other accountable where Jay said something like,

yo man, you left that dude in your game. I'm glad you took him out. Cause I just said, come on, man, take him out. He ain't, he's not doing it. So that's how, and I'm not saying that to violate any privacy or anything, but what I'm saying is we still hold each other accountable to this day. Yo, man, that was great, man.

Keep doing it. Come on, man, that was lame. What's up with that? You see what I'm saying? So these young folks, it's like if you're friends, you don't, and it's not confronting with hostility. It's like laughing and saying, come on, man, you know you're representing. My wife confronting with with the hostility it's like laughing saying come on man you know you know you you know you're representing my wife checks me all the time with it she's like hey just make sure that you're being honest because um you know we've we've been married 35

years so like there's a depth there she says as you as you grow people might not want to be as honest with you and so like i crave it and i hope that my ego and my fragility in life don't get in the way of it you know and like people feel that and they're like no this is an invitation to anyone that's listening to please be honest yeah but here's the thing when you when you're not honest uh you can learn from it and get back in integrity that's cool you know one of the things thatou, I learned a lot from her, but one of the things she said that's real powerful is when you know better, you do better. So if I give you a couple quick hits, like reductionist types of thoughts, which one word to one sentence answers, which I'm going to put some golden handcuffs on you now.

Okay. All right. These are going to be hard for you, okay? But maybe not. It all comes down to... Being in the moment and being yourself. My vision is... To be loving with a warrior spirit,

with a serving and compassionate heart, pursuing excellence and wisdom with grace and ease. If leaders knew what I knew, they would? Share power and get out of the way. If the next generation knew what I knew, they would? Be still and know who they are. You're doing pretty damn good here. If parents knew what I knew.

They would be the message and let go so their kids can grow. Limiting beliefs are? Being locked up. The place that I want to be, but I don't have permission to be is i don't think that's true cool i think uh i can want to be places it doesn't mean i can't get there but then where i want to be might not be where i'm supposed to be where do you want to drive people to people can go to my

website georgemumford.com, but also if they're interested, they can go online and pre-order my book. I know Amazon and I don't know the other places, but I know definitely Amazon, you can pre-order at a discount, I believe. Unlocked. Unlocked. George Mumford.

The George Mumford. And the website, one more time, is? It's georgemumford.com. George, what a gift. What a treat to sit down with you and do it in this form and to hear your wisdoms just roll at the end like that, the depth in the conversation. You're an honest man. And I wanna say thank you for the contributions

you've made in my life and so many people's lives and the writings and more importantly, the presence that you bring into the places that you go. Yeah. Well, I love you, brother. So thank you.

That's how I want to leave it with you. Oh my goodness. Okay. Thank you, Joey. All right. Love you. Love you too.

That was great to be able to revisit conversations like that. It's so rewarding. Emma on the heels of that, who do we have on next? I agree for the record. There is always something new to take away with every single listen. Okay, next up, things got real as you sat down with the incredible Julie Wainwright to talk all things business, resilience, and reinvention.

Okay, I see what you did there. So for those that might not know Julie's name, she's a trailblazing entrepreneur. She's founder of The Real Real. And quite frankly, she is a resilient force in the tech and fashion worlds. So we talk about what it takes to lead through public failure, how to scale with clarity, how to keep showing up when the odds are stacked against you. Plus, we talk about building a billion dollar business from scratch in her 50s. That's right. In her 50s, building a billion dollar business.

Julie's story is one of radical reinvention, disrupting stereotypes, grit, and self-belief. She's candid, she's bold, she's deeply insightful. Make sure to tune in next on Finding Mastery. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no-cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're listening. Also, if you haven't already, please consider dropping us a review on Apple or Spotify. We are incredibly grateful for the support and feedback.

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