Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - From Tennis Champion to Trailblazer | Katrina Adams

Episode Date: September 1, 2021

This week’s conversation is with Katrina Adams, the first African American to lead the United States Tennis Association (USTA), the first two-term Chairman and President of said organization and the first former player to hold that honor. Under her guidance, the USTA achieved a number of major milestones, including the opening of the 100 court USTA National Campus in Orlando, the strategic transformation of the $600 million USTA Billie Jean King National Tennis Center in Flushing Meadows, N.Y. and an unprecedented outreach effort into underserved communities in an effort to share the sport of tennis with more people. Prior to this role, Katrina competed for 12 years on the WTA Tour, winning 20 career doubles titles and reaching the quarterfinals or better in doubles at all four Grand Slam events. Katrina’s hard work in tennis, leadership and philanthropy has earned her many accolades including: being named on Adweek magazine’s “Most Powerful Women in Sports” list twice (2016 and 2017), Forbes magazine’s “Most Powerful Women in Sports” list in 2017 and Ebony magazine’s “Power 100” list. So, in short, Katrina is a flat-out trailblazer, and it’s why I was so excited to have this conversation.We discuss her journey - the sacrifices she made to become head of the USTA, the obstacles she overcame while successfully leading an organization with 700,000+ members, and why athletes like Naomi Osaka are helping to evolve the narrative around mental wellbeing._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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the finding mastery podcast i'm michael gervais by trade in training i am a sport and performance psychologist and i'm fortunate to work with some of the most extraordinary thinkers and doers across the planet. And the whole idea behind this podcast, behind these conversations, is to learn from people, to pull back the curtain, to explore how they've committed to mastering both their craft and their minds. Our minds are our greatest asset, flat out. And if you want to learn how you can train your mind, there's just a quick little reminder, a little note here to check out the online psychological training course, where we've pulled together the best practices to meet the intersection of both high performance and wellbeing. And literally we just walked through the 15 essential principles and skills

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Now, this week's conversation is with Katrina Adams, the first African-American to lead the United States Tennis Association, USTA, the first two-term chairman and president of that organization, and the first former player to hold that honor. So under her guidance, the USTA achieved a number of major milestones, including the opening of the 100-court USTA National Campus in Orlando, the strategic transformation of the $600 million USTA Billie Jean King National Tennis Center that's in Flushing Meadows, New York, and an unprecedented outreach effort into underserved communities in an effort to share the sport of tennis with more people. And prior to this role, Katrina competed for 12 years on the WTA tour, winning 20 career doubles titles and reaching the quarterfinals or better in doubles at all four Grand Slam events. has earned her many accolades, including being named on Adweek Magazine's Most Powerful Women in Sports twice,

Forbes Magazine's Most Powerful Women in Sports, and then Ebony Magazine's Power 100 list. I bought it. So in short, Katrina is just flat out a trailblazer. And it's why I'm so excited to have this conversation. We discuss her journey, the sacrifices that she made to become head of the USTA, the obstacles she overcame while successfully leading an organization with 700,000 members,

and why athletes like Naomi Osaka are helping to evolve the narrative around mental well-being. So with that, let's get right into this week's conversation with Katrina Adams. Katrina, how are you? I'm wonderful. How are you? You know, many people ask that question, but they don't really believe it when they ask it. I believe that you, you know, like you really want to know. So I'll take a, I'll take a moment if you don't mind.

Yeah, life is really good for me. And I say that with, I say it in a way where almost I feel like I need to apologize because I understand how hard things are for people. And so I say that in a way with great compassion, sensitivity, but I don't know what to tell you. Like mean, I'm feeling pretty good as well. I mean, there are so many people that are doing worse, worse off than we are. And we're blessed to have the opportunities that we have and to be able to sit here and have this conversation. So let me dive right in to there are people that are struggling. And how do you touch suffering? Like, how do you deal with your internal struggles and pain and difficultness? Like, how do you deal with that? Yeah, I think every single person has some difficulties or struggles or inner pain about

something or someone. I have been that individual that, you know, when things happen, I move forward. So it's not that I forget about them, but I kind of push them behind me because dwelling and, you know, really hovering over it doesn't solve anything. I try to address it. I try to deal with it and then I move on. I don't forget, but I do move on. And that's how I pretty much live my life. How deep do you go when you're going to touch some of the, let me actually be more concrete, right? Is that, what are your sources of suffering?

Um, I don't know. I mean, listen, I think everybody at some point has been depressed about something. Um, you know, we've all probably hit a level in our lives at some point where it's not where we want it to be, but it's a point where you really have to dig deep and kind of reassess where you are, who you are and, and figure out where it is you want to go. You know, I've, as a professional athlete and going through multiple transitions of careers, you know, each transition can be difficult because, you know, you're moving from a career where you may have been on top of the world,

on top of your game, going into another career where you're starting at the bottom and, and so forth and so on. You do that over and over again. And it's hard to try to find yourself at the bottom of the barrel, again, trying to pull yourself up and outward. And so those are moments I think that I've had challenges in my life with, um, you know, I lost my parents recently in 2019 and 2020. And, you know, I was blessed to have them in my life for 51 years. And so it's difficult, you know, when you wake up and they're not there, you pick up the phone and you can't call them. So those are

moments that I've had. And I'm sure, you know, there are millions of other people that have felt those moments, whether it's a parent, a sibling, a spouse, a child, you know, whatever that might be. It's a difficult spot to be in, particularly when it's for the first time. So you lost them back to back. Yeah, my mom passed in August of 2019. She had an illness. And then my dad passed away in May of 2020. And we all say from a broken heart, they've been together 64 years, married 60.

They met as freshmen in college and, you know, got married after college. And, you know, he really kind of suffered every day that she wasn't there. He was lonely and, you know, he wanted to be with her and God brought him home to her. So, you know, it was difficult, but, you know, he was better off in the long run. Better off because of his suffering was so immense without her. Yeah. He didn't deserve to wake up every morning in that kind of mental state that he was in. Even though he tried to act like everything was okay at times, deep down by the tone of his voice, by his eyes and by his actions, and by his words of him saying how much he missed her. So it was tough for us as kids to watch and to hear.

But in the end, there's no more suffering for him. Okay. Sorry to hear about that loss. I mean, it's still recent when it comes to grief and loss, especially with parents. And where are you in that process right now? Do you feel like you've done some deep work or you're like, Hey, listen, I just worked over it. I drugged my way through it. I overexercise my way through it or like, no, I've been putting in some work. No, I think it's a little bit of all of it. You know, when my mom passed, I immediately, you know, ended up, it was right during the US Open or right before the US Open of 2019. I jumped right back into the open that year and in my duties and was busy the rest of that year and really trying to navigate dealing with dad. I mean, I have other siblings, which is good.

But getting him situated and out of the house and, you know, so forth and so on. I would say when he passed last year, it was during COVID. He didn't have COVID. It was, but it was during COVID. So it was, it was difficult. You know, we weren't able to have any services. We've yet to have the memorial. The memorial will now be in September of this year. So there's not yet closure, if you will, on that front. But I have dealt with it. And I've had a year, a year and a half to really go inward and speak outward about it. And so I'm in a much better space than I was, say, a year ago.

And I know we're starting off kind of heavy. So stay with me for just a minute, if I could keep learning about how you do something. Okay. When you feel, because you talked about depression. When you feel depression, depression is one of the most common mental struggles that people feel. And I think the numbers, if my data is correct, it's somewhere between 13% and 15% of adults will have a major depressive episode. And that's a lot. That's a lot of people. And that's in the United States. When you start to feel some sort of depression or sadness, is it more loneliness or is it more agitation? Is it

more isolation? How do you experience it? And then what do you do with it? Yeah. I mean, I think I would say the first part would be more of a loneliness. With that, I mean, I'm not married, I don't have kids, I have nieces and nephews, and, you know, and siblings and a slew of great friends that I surround myself with here in New York in particular. And so lots of conversation on the phone or last year through FaceTime or any other virtual means that could bring us all together. Yeah, I mean, it's the sadness, not so much. I mean, it's maybe, maybe I exude it around people, but I never really say that I'm sad.

I'm never sad. I think I just kind of drudge forward. I always have a to-do list, if you will, of tasks that keeps me busy and keeps me focused on doing things. I think last year probably, though, was the first time I was able to kind of sit still and do nothing for a while when my life was on the road, in and out of airports week in and week out, and in different countries, different cities week in and week out, and been a complete halt. So I would say it took them a while to kind of deal with just sitting still and figuring out what to do.

And I kind of liked it. I got comfortable with that. I was like, oh, this is nice. This is really nice. So when I started traveling again, I was like, Oh, do I really have to go? But I'm back in the swing of things. And for me, it's just about moving forward and, you know, surrounding myself with good people. Okay, so look, there's a context here that I want to make sure that I'm articulating properly, which is I see you as a trailblazer. And I see you as somebody who's been a first in multiple ways. And I see you as somebody who would not escape the darker side of that extraordinary trailblazing experiences that you've publicly demonstrated.

So I do want to understand both. And part of it is like, there are costs to being in front and out front. And so I want to go to the celebration moment, pivot just slightly, to be first and to be way out there professionally and to do what you've done. Was family, was that by, I don't, what's the right way to say it? Like one of my deep struggles, Katrina, is that like if when I'm in the thin herd, I feel like I don't have the right bandwidth or time allocation to spend with my most intimate loved ones. And the pandemic was incredible for that. It was like this greatest gift from that lenses for me and my son in particular and my wife so what i'm trying to get at was like

was your trailblazing was there a design to not have family you know and that's not the right word uh children no i know yeah was that by design or was that yeah listen as a professional athlete particularly as a female um there's some sacrifices and choices that you make early on and to be at the top of your game in your sport and to be the best at your craft that you can be. And so that was part of it. I did actually write about it in my book on the arena. I did have some reproductive issues early on in life. So that kind of took

care of that for me to not be able to reproduce naturally anyways. And so as my career progressed, that opportunity or window, if you will, closed by other means. So that's why I didn't have kids. As far as getting married, um, being in that relationship that never matriculated or materialized, I think mainly because I was always busy. Um, and not so much always busy, cause that's not a good excuse. I think my, my ability or my goal to be the leader that I was striving to be was intimidating to many of my male friends that I was dating because I was really strong minded and always had a vision and a plan, if you will. And then sometimes that gets in the way if you're with another strong-minded or strong-willed male who is

looking to do the same thing and want someone there to support them. So we both needed someone out in the trenches to support one another and neither one of the relationships that I had, did we have that ability or time to be able to do that. And so that that's kind of why in the early years, or even in recent years, that hasn't happened yet. But I haven't given up on hope. Does that mean you? You're interested in? Of course. Yeah, he wants to be alone. I don't want to be alone. I mean, I'm never alone. I mean, I've got friends and family. But I mean, it would be nice to be in that relationship where, you know, you've got someone that's supporting you on a, on a daily basis and, um, and that you can be with, um, I mean, I am speaking to someone, but it's, it's by the phone,

it's long distance. Um, so that's challenging in itself, but, um, you know, life goes on and, and this is the space that I've always lived in. So it's not new to me, but I'm looking forward to, uh, something new. Yeah. I'm glad we're talking about this because there's a different path for men and women in the professional worlds. And I don't, there's no fairness in the comparisons, right? Like there's zero i uh great yeah so you're right i mean listen i look at it's funny because um you know when you look at the tennis tour now um there are a lot there are a handful more mothers that are that have gone on had kids and come back to play whereas for our male counterparts these cats get they get married in the early

twenties, mid twenties. And, you know, they've got two, three kids running around the tour with them day in and day out. So their family is with them all the time, which allows them to really be focused on what they do and, and go out there and do what they do. Whereas for, for us as women on the tour, it's a completely different situation. You know, we get chastised that when we are out dating or focusing on relationships that we're blamed that it's affecting our focus and what we're doing and how we're performing. And I'm like, but he's doing the same thing. And, and he has a family with him. So, and that's just in our sport where, you know, where that's kind of talked about, um, to a higher degree, but it's,

it's nice to see it more of our, uh, women who are now married and, or have, um, kids that are out there and, and they've gone back to work and gone back to the tour. So if you were to pull way out and kind of access your wisdom and you're looking at the young athletes, right? And some, and let's just look at women for just a moment. Some have families and some don't, right? Some have a partner and some don't, some have kids and some don't. Would you say that having a intimate partner and children, that that is an accelerant to high performance? It's certainly, there's something about like wellness that is important, you know, intimate relationships is one of the key components. I can say it is because it really makes you more of a complete person and that you're not really, your worries are very different. You know, you worry about your family,

but to be worrying about who you're meeting, who you're dating, when is this going to happen? When is that going to happen? I think is a lot more stressful than if you are able to be settled down in that, in that family situation and family environment. So kudos to those that have been able to accomplish that. And I think, and I think the trend is changing particularly on the women's tour where the girls are, are getting married earlier than later and at some point having kids, which is great. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentous. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family,

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You spell it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com and use the code FindingMastery20 at FelixGray.com for 20% off. When you think about the reason you wrote your book, what was the reason? Michael, the reason I wrote my book is because people told me I needed to write a book, to be honest with you. I never wanted to write a book. I never had a desire to write a book. I feel that I'm a pretty private person, or at least I have been in my life until I wrote a book. But it was the meaning behind writing the book as far as telling the story that of the blaze that I've trailed and how I did it and how it could help others,

how it could inspire others and motivate others. And so that was really why I agreed to write in a book, because I felt that it could help others. I'm all about making a difference. And if I can make a difference in someone's life, then I'm here for that. And sorry for stepping on your words, because what I was going to say or add to that is that your subtitle is really important, which is getting ahead and making a difference, succeeding as the only one, not being like first. And I think that that speaks to authenticity and the title. Can you talk to me about why you chose the title of Own the Arena?

And this is going to the trailblazing. This is going to your insights about the compromises that you have and the decisions that you have faced and the path for quote unquote success? Yeah. You know, in my sport of tennis as an African-American or person of color, I was often the only one that was out there playing in a lot of our events in the suburbs or national events, et cetera. So it was always in that space. And from a very young age, I always walked into a room as if I owned it. I didn't have a shy bone in me when it came to being the one in the center of the room. Maybe that's because I'm a Leo. I don't know, but it was a confidence that I've always had in myself. And so as I matured and every room that

I walked into, no matter where I always walked in as if I owned it. So the title was meant to be own the room. And my publisher and editor decided that it was, they said, Kat, you're bigger than a room. You're more like an arena. And I said, Ooh, I like that because an arena can be anywhere. Your arena is where you are right now in your home or in your office, in your car, on your court, on your field, you know, at the beach, wherever it is, that's your arena and the space that you are filling. And I think everyone needs to understand that because if you can own your arena, then you're owning your own presence. You're owning your own will as to what it is that you're trying to accomplish. And so getting ahead, making a difference and succeeding as the only one

is the only one of being the only woman in the room or the only person of color, only black person, whatever that might be. And I think everyone at some point has been the only person of color, only black person, whatever that might be. And I think everyone at some point has been the only one of something somewhere, whether you're the only man, the only woman, the only white person, the only Asian, Hispanic, person of color, whatever that might be. We've all experienced that somehow. And you have to figure out how did that make you feel? How did you deal with it? How did you address it?

And how did you walk away from it? And so those are many of the things that I address in the book. In a very intimate level, you are always the only one, which not to be complicated, but nobody has walked your life path. Nobody has thought the things you've thought, had the experiences from the inside and from the external world around you. Nobody's made the exact mistakes that you've made and had the unique celebrations, the heartbreaks and the deep connections. So you are always, and I am always the only one. There's nobody quite like you, Katrina. This is why I love this forum too, is to really know you the best we can

with the constraints we have. And also, I don't want to lose track of like, you have an understanding of what it means to own the arena, own the room, magnified to arena. I don't want to spend too much time here, but I do want to understand what was the breakfast table? Like, what was the dinner table? Like, how did your parents teach you some of that first stuff? And you might say they didn't, they were, they were quite bad at it. I had to go figure that thing out. But so can you just give me some frame of the home life first? Yeah, I had amazing parents, amazing family. I mean, I grew up with two older brothers. So we, we always had breakfast at the table. We always

had dinner at the table up until I don't know what age, I guess, probably once I was a teenager, early teens, my brothers were seven and nine years older than me. So at some point, they were already off to college when I was entering high school or finishing elementary school. But yeah, I mean, it was, you know, I grew up in a household of respect and of discipline and of conversation. And I was very lucky. I grew up in a household where it was, my parents were supportive in every way possible. I mean, they were middle middle class. They were two teachers. So they weren't making a lot of money in Chicago public schools, but they sacrificed a lot to make sure that we all had what we need to be the best that we could be. And my my arena, my space was tennis.

We knew nothing about tennis when I picked up a racket and joined a, you know, a summer program. Who knew that tennis was a professional sport and who knew that I would have the opportunities that the sport bestowed upon me with all the accolades that I have. So I'm very grateful for that, but it was really because I had that support at home. You know, it was always about school first. If I didn't keep my grades up, I couldn't stay in tennis. I wasn't going to be able to go to practice in the evenings because practice was after school. So, you know, I had my role and roles of responsibility to myself to make sure that I could do what I really love to do, which was play tennis. And who knew that it was an all white sport? I love that quote that you, that is really funny. I look back, Michael, you know, when I, when I started writing the book and you start to reflect,

and I don't think I'd ever really said that until, you know, three years ago, when I started writing this, I go, wait a minute, I started in an all black program. My coach was black, the next program I went to was black, you know, so forth and so on until I started until I joined, you know, the citywide program. And I show up and I'm the only one and I'm like, Hey, where's everybody? So what did you do? What did you do in that moment when you looked around and I'm a, I mean, it's not all white. That's not the right way to say it, but predominantly when you looked around, it was all white. You can say it was all white outside of me and my dad, but, but it's, um, I mean, remember this is the seventies.

So it wasn't the first time I was in an all white environment or a diverse environment. I mean, like I said, my parents are teachers. Yeah. my parents are teachers. And we used to go to, you know, they used to go to their colleagues homes and for barbecues or what have you and you know, diverse group and I'm playing with other you know, I had white friends, their friends were white, the kids were white, we're playing with them. It wasn't the first time that I was in an environment that was all black. Yeah, it was it wasn't like it wasn't like a culture shock. No, it definitely wasn't a culture shock. I mean, my parents, in the summer times,

we used to drive to different places in the summer for holidays, back to their home in Mississippi or what have you. So you're driving, you learn about new places. We had a West coast trip, a Northeast trip, et cetera. So I was definitely introduced to, uh, different cultures, uh, at a young age from going to sporting events, going to museums, et cetera. So, uh, that wasn't strange. It was just odd that I think the first time that I showed up, I was like, where's everyone meeting all my other

friends that I've been playing tennis with all along? You know, it's about age groups. So in my age group, I was pretty much the only one in my group. I was the youngest one in my group at that time. So that made a difference as well. And if you were to title the chapters of your life, not the chapters of your book, but the chapters of your life, if I put you on the spot here as a reductionist question, I understand this, but what would be some of the key headers of the chapters of your life? Wow, that's pretty good. I don't know. I would say bossy. My parents always said I was a bossy kid.

So a lot of it has to do with with my personality. So bossy, bold, present. A leader. This was all as I look through through, through everything, athletic, superstar. These were the nicknames that I was, that I was called. Baby Cakes was a nickname. Just because I was, you know, I was young, but was old, but still young. And in many of my, my positions or in my age groups in the sport. But I don't know. That's a really good question.

I like that one. Yeah. And so what do you think the next handful of chapters will be? Authentic. I don't know. Authentic is probably a good one. Because as you get older, you start to understand who you are and represent from that standpoint. Represent it.

Represented. Yeah. What are some of your first principles, your core virtues that matter most to you that you've earned to say these, I've paid for these, these you know these are virtues that are real no i mean it's it's really i think authenticity is definitely one and i i mentioned that a lot now um because it's you got to be true to yourself but let's say on the authenticity for a minute how have you paid for that can you tell a story that brings that to life or a time where you're like, listen, I had a, I had a moment and I zigged and I wish I would have zagged or I, I, I zagged and it was fucking, I'm better for it. You know, like you have, we, we have to earn our virtues, you know? Um, that's how I think about

it at least. So do you have an experience where you're like, here's one where I knew that authenticity, uh, was really important to me? No, I, you know, I would say really in the last couple of years, have I really kind of felt that? And I think a lot of it had to do with the turn of events in 2020 and to where I realized who I am and where I'm from and what I represent and who I represent. And it was in, you know, a year ago, 14, 14 months ago, where I made a promise to myself that I'm no longer going to try to be anything other than myself. And that I'm not going to hide from anything. I'm not going to

shy away from anything or let anything just go over my head or accept just anything. Because too often in life, we just accept things that are said to us or are done to us. And you kind of push them off because you just don't want to deal with it. Or you recognize, well, I better not say anything

because they might look at me differently or think this or think that. And now I'm like, now I've got to be true to myself and a lot of us. And this is really, this is all about identity that I'm, that I'm referencing. And, and so that's something that I can definitely say in the last, you know, 14 months that I'm a lot more vocal about than, than I was previously. Do you relate to the idea of two selves? What do you mean by that?

I show up one way because of social pressures or context. And I'm thinking about your, your former life. Yeah. I mean, I've always been that. I think I've always been that person. I've been the person that I would adapt to fit in. I think humans do that. You know, we have to adapt. We have to adapt to fit in. And as a Black person, you always have to adapt to not to offend. And because people always look at us as Black people, people of color, as perhaps offensive or aggressive or too assertive, which is not necessarily true. And it's unfair to always have labels on you anytime that you're in a room, because there are these assumptions, there are these stereotypes

that people have, particularly if their society and their upbringing and their world doesn't have, they've never had to deal with people of color. And so there's a negative thing there. I'm listening to you and I start, how do you not get, how did you not, or how do you not now? I don't know what the right question is here, but what I'm feeling is like, I get pissed. And my smallest version of myself is like, when I get sucked into like, why are you putting that on me? Like, you don't know me. And what makes you think you can say that about me or assume that? And so the biggest version of me is like, Hey, listen, I see you and I understand where you're coming from. And that's just not accurate.

You know, like, so I get I just want to know how you deal with that. How I can deal with that better learning from you. It's difficult because. You know, when you when you're constantly taught something or told something or hear something and it's always negative like how do you like what's an what's an example uh i'm talking about as far as being of color or being black or being african-american if you've never been in a society where you grew up with people that look like me, a lot of people only know what they hear on television, on the news, in television shows or in movies.

And unfortunately, we're always depicted as something negative 90% of the time because you have the writers that are writing what they want to write. They're writing what sells as opposed to really writing true stories. And so I've had these conversations with people and that's why I can sit here and say that. And until they actually get out into the real world and recognize that the world looks different from them and that we're all human and that we're all striving to be

successful in our own ways, in our own professions, whatever that might be. And that we all bleed red is challenging. And so then there's a epiphany that goes off with someone that says, oh, wow, what I've been taught or what I've been told or what I've read or what I've seen is, is totally not true. And, and it's in these moments, even in corporate America right now, you know, we're, we're not supposed to as black people be on the same level in a C-suite as our peers that don't look like us. And that's a challenge. And so, you know, sport is a breakthrough where we're all out there performing on the same level to succeed, striving to win and be our best of black, white, red,

yellow, green, purple, whatever, coming together for the good of the sport and that everybody can applaud each other and, and pat each other on the back and live in the same space equally. But as soon as you come out of that, as soon as you come off the field or off the court or out of the pool or wherever you are, you're just viewed as another this or another that, because now I'm not in uniform and you're not cheering for me. And, and now you're, you're threatened by me. Really? Come on now. So not so much me personally, but it's, it's my experiences with, with many of my friends and colleagues. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery

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that elevate your routine without complicating it, I'd love for you to check them out. Head to calderalab.com slash finding mastery and use the code finding mastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash finding mastery. And that's what I wanted to get to the trailblazing nature where you broke some barriers, you did some stuff and you're really successful at it. And you use sport as a way to understand who you are, to know yourself better. It feels to me. And then you had this inner capability that was refined to own the room, which is really about being confident, being present and, and from the working from the inside out, as opposed to trying

to manage from the outside in. It sounds like you had to do that. We all do at some level. And the more that you can work from the inside out, the more freedom that you ultimately experience in life. You're not whipped around by the external conditions, the raised eyebrows or the scoreboard or whatever. And that's what I wanted to get to. And I was trying to find a link between how would you deal with the external conditions and the assumptions that were laid

on you? And then you didn't have many role models that look like you. And how did you do that? Well, I mean, I have a lot of role models that look like me. And so I think that's the important thing. So I'm wrong there. That's not right. Yeah. I mean, you have family and family and other colleagues and business that, that, you know, that are in your corner that are helping you, that are guiding you, that are supporting you, et cetera. Just maybe not in my arena of tennis. To be fair, Katrina, that's where I was going. It's like you did, there was not a female black leader in the USTA that held an executive position.

So that's where my head was going. But even still going into that role, I don't think it was necessary for me to have that female Black leader going into the role. I mean, listen, the USTA, I was the first one in 135 years. So that's pathetic, though, when you really think about it. And, and so, you know, it was really, it was really about my fortitude and my, my vision and my passion that got me there to make a difference. I mean, I made, I made a huge difference as soon as my, I stepped foot in the door, my name was on

the plate and my face was plastered over everything. The people in our sport said, wow, this can happen. This is happening. This is real. And now they saw themselves in our sport in a different light. So they were more motivated to play more, motivated to get others to play, motivated to say, hey, look at Kat. Hey, do you know this person? Do you know her? And so I had to work three times as hard just to make sure that I did a great job because I was not only just representing myself or my family or the organization, I was representing a whole race of people, a whole culture of people. And, and I knew that I had to do my best and, and stay up and on at all times because I couldn't let my guard down. I couldn't, I couldn't afford to fail. I couldn't afford to make it, to make a mistake

because all eyes were on me at all times, waiting for me to make a mistake, waiting for me to fail and, and waiting for me to do something out of the ordinary. And the things that I did out of the ordinary were successful. And so, you know, that's that's where you that's where you lead. And that's where you're able to mentor and bring others along with you and recognize the space that you're in. And so being the first, you know, I don't really think I understood the magnitude of it until I was in it. Um, because I talked about it every time I was introduced. And I think at some point it really hit me to, to really feel and know and understand the meaning of that, um, and what it truly represented. And so I was very fortunate.

You know, I had a great team that I worked with at the USTA. The staff was superb. The volunteers around the country were amazing. I had a lot of support. I'm sure there are a lot of naysayers out there as well, but that wasn't my focus. So, you know, to me is I kept my eye on the ball, literally, you know, I could, I could ace anything that I was doing because I knew I had a great team, you know, surrounding me and supporting me.

Were you playing? I don't know your, how you played as an athlete. Were you more offensive based or defensive based? Oh yeah. I'm a serving volleyer. So that's my, that's my, that's my attitude. That's my approach. You know, I'm, I'm gonna, you know, put some heat on it and charge the net. So it sounds like that's also your business model too, right? Like I'm in the process. So I've got great hands for reflex things. So I can catch anything that's coming my way,

you know, of words or, or whatever that might be, um, in life and, and, and, you know, of words or whatever that might be in life and, you know, put it right back on you. And I think that's the skill set that allowed me to navigate that space, move forward and be successful. You know what I appreciate about the sensitivity to your answer is that you said, listen, I didn't have a role model in the governance body for USTA, but I did have radical role models in other communities. And I was able to see them be successful, borrow their ear, listen to them, learn, whatever. So you had role models, just not in the arena that you were going to be in. I really appreciate that. And I also hear another parallel,

which is you had done something. Maybe you didn't, like you say, I didn't understand the magnitude of it. Okay. Like I totally understand that. I recognize the magnitude, you recognize the magnitude, but it was like this thing that happened. And I want to make a parallel. This is the clunkiest way I can do it to Naomi Osaka, where maybe she didn't quite realize the magnitude of what she did. And maybe you can capture what she did for everyone. And there's this radical kind of leading that she found herself in as well. So I don't know if I'm stretching here on a parallel, but there's something. I got you. So I think, you know, and I'll just, I'll back up a second before I address that, because, you know, I'll say in, in my sport or in my arena of sport, the, you know, the role models that I did have were much older, you know, and, and two of them are no longer with us,

which is Althea Gibson, who broke the color barrier in our sport as a professional player and went on to win 11 grand slam titles. And so I know that I walk in her footsteps every day of my life. And I'm grateful that she did that to allow me to play in the sport. There's Arthur Ashe who came after her, who's known a lot more for his humanitarian efforts of fighting for, you know, equal rights and outside of tennis, you know, outside of being a champion. And there's Billie Jean King, who is a mentor and is a friend and is a role model, you know, and we all know what she's accomplished and continue to do to fight for equality in our sport or in all sports and just in life in general to do that. and step out and be vocal about social injustice during the US Open or even before that when she said she wasn't going to play at the Western and Southern Open that was actually played here in

New York and not since due to COVID and then wearing the mask during the US Open, you know, we saw a very different Naomi Osaka than we've ever seen before, who was confident in what she was speaking about, knowledgeable about the topics and bringing awareness on a platform that had never seen that type of awareness before. So kudos to her for that. And it got a lot of other players, men and women of all races and all, um, from all countries saying, wow, tell me more. I didn't really, I don't understand what's going on. So that opened up a whole different conversation in our sport, which was great. You fast forward a year and it's around the anniversary of Mr. Floyd's death and it's the French open. And she says, you know what, I'm, I'm not doing, you know, I'm not going to do the media conferences after my matches. I'll do the on-court interviews, but you know,

I really have to look after my mental health, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then all hell breaks out for, for lots of various reasons from different angles. And to the point where she said, okay, I'm pulling out, you know, I didn't say that to, to really stir up anything, but this is really about what I need to do for myself. Pulled out, pulled out of Wimbledon, um, did participate in the Olympics, you know, carry the torch, lift the torch, which is amazing. And now, you know, she's back to the U.S. Open to defend her title. And so, you know, hopefully she has gotten the help that she's needed and the time that she's needed. But what she did was bring awareness to an issue that's been around for decades, particularly with professional athletes to where it is. You know, we were told that it is our job to go out and run, jump, shoot, hit, throw, whatever that might be.

And who cares about your mental state? Just go out and perform. And she's saying, no, no, no. More than that, I've got to take care of myself so that I can go out and perform and be the best that I can for you. And so there's been other athletes over the years that have spoken out, but they didn't have that platform that we have today. I mean, every day there's more and more, there are more and more platforms, particularly with social media. So people have more and more access to these athletes. And, you know, we go back, I go back 10 years ago, maybe more than that with Marty Fish, you know, who was our top American player who was having anxiety issues to the point where he retired. He was at the top of his game, finally gotten there, top 10, you know,

ready to win a grand slam, et cetera. And the anxiety took over to where he literally had to retire from that. And he spoke about it or reminded people of that recently this, this summer after Naomi spoke out and he put something in Players' Tribune. But then you look at the other athletes, you look at Barbara Krichikova, who won the French Open with Naomi not playing. But she said, look, in my quarterfinal match, I didn't know how I was going to go out and play. I had an anxiety attack. I didn't know. I couldn't go on the court until I spoke to my psychologist.

So these players are dealing with this often in our sport and in other sports, as we've seen. And then you saw what happened to Simone Biles at at the Olympics and having the quote unquote twisties, you know, which in their sport is dangerous. You could get severely hurt or or kill yourself, you know, if you land wrong. And she spoke out about it. And I don't know if she would have spoken out about it if Naomi hadn't done so just a couple months before. And in every sport, we're now seeing athletes, men and women speaking out. And I think it's so important that we all recognize that we are human. We are at the heights of our games. Often we are in the spotlight 24 seven. There's no way or nowhere that you can hide, particularly with cell phone cameras. You're, you know, and it's hard to always be up for everyone in the world, for all of your fans, when sometimes you just want to shut down. And, you know, I played on the tour for 12 years and I, you know, I, I, I had that,

my nickname was Hollywood because I was always out and going and, you know, and upbeat and, and what have you, but yeah, but that was in the face of others, not, not necessarily in my, in my hotel room, you know, where you can just finally let go and shut down and let all that weight off of trying to be someone for everybody else, where you have to be that person for yourself first. And I think a lot of these superstars in particular, these megastars, that's what they're feeling. these superstars in particular these mega stars that's what they're feeling they feel like they have to always be on for the world you know for for their fans for the sponsors and and everybody

else that they have relationships with and sometimes they just want to be alone and and be in their own little bubble in their space to have a mental break and so so I think that's what Naomi has done in bringing awareness. This is about awareness more so than anything. And I applaud her for bringing that to the forefront. I work with kids. I run the Harlem Junior Tennis and Education Program. And I've heard some amazing stories,

sob stories, sad stories, you know, from kids and parents alike of their situations or their experiences or what they're going through. And, you know, we have this program to, you know, to assist and take away those pains and those challenges so that they have a safe haven to come and just be themselves and let it all out on the tennis court and let's have fun while we're doing it. And we actually develop players out of it, but we're actually, you know, we're really developing champions in life and teaching them how to deal with different things. And, you know, we have a wellness component as well as an education component. And that's so important, particularly in communities like Harlem and other communities around the country.

But awareness is key. And that's the one thing that we as humans can help others be is aware of these types of situations. And I couldn't be more thrilled than this part of the conversation that's happening globally and thrilled and excited by the level of courage that these extraordinary athletes are demonstrating. And, you know, they gain much by being authentic and you gain the knowing that you have what it takes to stand in your own feet, you know, stand in your own shoes with truth,

stand in your own bag of skin, you know, to be crude about it and be true. And then there's a cost to it as well. And I look at you, Katrina, I'm like, man, you got it. You got a lot going on. That's really good. You know, like I know you've done some inner work and how much inner work have you done? Probably not enough. Okay. So there's, there's more to go. Yeah. Listen, I think there's always more, more to go. I didn't, I just started meditating

probably two years ago to where, you know, I have an app and it's only like 10 minutes a day and it's not every day, but it's something that I am conscious of. And I try to do it because it's, I think it's just so important to find that inner peace and that calmness, you know, for even for, if it's 10 or 20 minutes that kind of rejuvenates you and, and, and it allows you to feel every bone in your body and the feel the breath from the head, from your head to your toes and everything in between. And just be still because the world is so fast. My life has been fast. My arena is very fast and everything that I do. And, and so I'm, I'm learning to kind of settle down and just take a little time for myself on a daily basis, because I find

that that is very helpful. But, you know, as I mentioned earlier, I'm the person that things happen today and I move forward tomorrow because dwelling on it is not going to help me solve the problem or move forward or overcome whatever that is. So I'm not one to wallow in my sorrow, if and when I have it. I'm one to just kind of say, okay, that happened for a reason. Let's figure out how to make sure it doesn't happen again. And let's move forward. This awareness bit that you're talking about, there's a meta awareness, you know, like they're bringing awareness to and you're bringing awareness to the importance of, you know, taking care of oneself from the inside out. And there's also the skill of awareness, which is becoming aware of my thoughts and my feelings and the way that I work from the inside so that I can pivot and adjust and i think you've got this interesting balance between awareness and letting

go and the what you you hinted at it earlier with the skill of fortitude staying with a long game even when it's hard and if you keep carrying luggage from all the trips you've ever gone on into the next plane like eventually you're just it's too hard it's there's not enough it's just too heavy. Yeah. And I think part of it comes from my training as a tennis player, right? I got another point. You're right. I lost this set. There's another set. I lost this match. There's always tomorrow I'm out of this tournament. There's always next week. And so you don't really have time to waste negative energy on reflecting on something that didn't go well. You got to figure it out and you've got to make the adjustments and move forward. And that's, and that's pretty much how I navigate life. How do you practice letting go? How do you practice

confidence? How do you practice fortitude? Like I heard you say meditation and 10 minutes a day for two years is a significant, you know, bit of work. That's just recent though. I mean, I've, I've been this, I've been that way of letting go and I've practiced, you know, so practicing, I think it's just something to be honest with you has been innate within me, um, from a kid. I, I, I've never dwelled on anything.

Do you write, do you talk, do you think like, how do you make sense of something so that you can be done with it? I probably is subconsciously thinking about it. I replay it, I solve it and I move on. I don't really talk a lot. I mean, I probably seems like I do. But you know, my friends, my friends say they have to pull things out of me. I'm not one to just automatically, I don't offer the conversation. I'll answer questions. Yeah. But I'm not the one to offer it.

Okay. Yeah. So you, you're an introverted processor. Like you work from that way to make sense of things. Okay. And then how do you speak to yourself when it's good to be you? When it's good to be me? Mm-hmm. I am a person that you'll never know when things are going great. I am not one to outwardly emote excitement. I'm excited for

others, but you'll never hear me talk about anything about myself of what I've just accomplished, what award I just got, what show I was just on, whatever. I don't talk about myself. So I'm very humble in, in that space for me. I'll talk about everybody else and applaud everybody else. Um, but I don't talk about now. I want you to applaud me. Yes. I love that when you do it, but I won't, I won't, um, offer it. Um, I don't initiate it. And so my friends are always amazed that, Kat, why don't you tell them about this? Or why didn't you tell us about that? I'm like, I don't know. I mean, that was yesterday. This is a new day. And so I'm not sure if that's good or bad, but it's just who I am. I mean, I'm, I'm very humble when it comes to the things that I've done.

And, and I'm always amazed to hear, uh, when I'm at an event or somewhere and they're reading my bio or listing, I'm like, wow, that's pretty cool. I was like, yeah, I did that. Wow. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Well, okay. Now what's next? That's, that's just me. Even, even with my book, it's, it's hard. It's been hard for me to kind of promote it, if you will. You know, I get on the social media and I can talk about it when I'm at a place, but my friends are always like, Kat, tell them, tell them that you just wrote a book. And I'm like, oh yeah, you know, it came out in February. They're like, well, tell me about it. And I'm like, oh, well, you know. And then my friends are always the ones that are talking about it. So there is a sensitive shyness deep down inside of me.

But I mask it with, you know, being confident and sure of myself. Super. Yeah. I appreciate that nuance there. And what are you, what are you craving? What do you, craving is not quite the right word, but what are you yearning for? It's a, it's a deep question though. I don't want to be trivial when I say, yeah, no, I get it. I get it get it i know i know where you're going i think i think everybody wants to be at peace everyone everyone wants to be happy i mean i want to i want to be at peace and knowing that everything that i'm doing is is putting me on

track for something greater than what i have um you know everyone wants to be successful. I mean, I definitely want to be successful. I want to be able to be on that platform that, that I can talk about all the things that you and I just spoke about with, with, you know, freely and with intent and with purpose and make sure that my life has purpose and that I'm giving back and I'm making a difference. And that's on so many different arenas and so many different levels. Those are the things that I constantly yearn for, because I don't think that the things that I've done are good enough or have been enough. And so there's always that yearn to do something more, to do something better, to be, to do something greater than, than what I've done. You know, I learned, I yearn to be loved by all, you know, that everyone, everybody loves

cat. And, and I have that, which is great, but it's, you know, it's a sense of security, I think, if you will, just for my own ego, my Leo ego that I have in that regard. But just, you know, I yearn for peace for the world. I mean, that's what we yearn for. It's what I yearn for is much greater than myself. And I think that's what keeps me grounded. Is there a spiritual framework that you're working from? Yeah, I'm a Christian. I mean, I don't practice it daily, but I'm a believer. I was raised in a church. I am a believer and that faith and those prayers that I say are constant

and that keeps me going and that gives me a sense of peace. Um, and, and knowing that, you know, I do have a, a faith in something higher than me, a high, a higher being. Um, and that's part of the peacefulness I think as well. You know what I've really appreciated about this conversation is, I say this with the greatest respect and regard, is that you are so aware of the complications of being fully alive. It's not simple, is it? And you, you, you don't get caught in the reductionist trap. And I think that there is so much more that I'm not able to get to in our limited time, but

I just, I'm feeling, um, just how nuanced and how much you appreciate the nuances of being you and being human is involved and is that does that feel right to you or are you like no dude you missed it like it's really quite simple show up and do good you know but i feel like i mean i think i think you hit the nail on the head i mean there's you know listen life is complex um there's nothing simple about, but it's how we approach it that simplify it. And I, that's my focus and how I approach life. If you were to sit down with a master of craft, who would it be? I don't know.

Never thought about it. Never thought about it. Let me give you some space to think about it. You, you, we're doing that right now you're the master of craft oh come on you're too slight you're the one when i see what you're doing gandhi would have that would be a great conversation with gandhi oh you go gandhi that would be a great conversation. Where would you have the conversation? Oh my God. I don't know. I've been to Bhutan on the, on the top of the highest mountain in the world, you know, to, to have, you know, be on top of the world at peace in the

mountains and snow caps and the sun beaming down. I think that would just be amazing. Oh my God. If, if we could be reductionist for a minute, a moment, and you only had one question, what would you ask? You are really pulling it out, Michael. Yeah. Come on. Let's go, Katrina. I'm going to start calling you Kat now.

I feel like we've gotten past that. Yeah, Kat. Kat is good. All my friends call me Kat. In this conversation, the way we are, you're definitely a friend. Let's go, Kat. I don't know. One i mean i have no idea is what we're talking about a legend i know i mean it's it won't help if i say what two questions no i yeah there you go. I think the biggest thing would be, and this is for humankind, is how do you find your inner peace? Because it's about being at peace with yourself to be able to deal with the complexities of the world.

I love that. You can take anything that comes at you as long as you're at peace with yourself. So, you know, how do you find your inner peace? We all think we have it, but we don't. Because there's always something that's going to bother us. There's always something that's going to intimidate us. There's always something that's going to antagonize us. I had a moment. It was probably about 20 years ago. It was a little mini crisis.

My mentor, I was talking to him about something and he's known me since I was 15 and he kind of squared me up and he goes, you know, I was going through something that was hard. I don't even remember what it was, but I remember this moment with my entire body became hot and he looked at me, we squared up and he says, Mike, he interrupted the conversation. He says, when's the last time you felt a sense of peace? I said, holy shit. My whole body, you know, turned on. And I was like, I just don't know. And he goes, no, no, no. seriously, when's the last time? And it felt like an eternity. And I said, I think it was last month. I'm not sure. And he started hackling, you know, you're just laughing like, oh my God, a month? Like, geez, like you can't say today? I was like, no, definitely not

today. He says, last week? No. So when you say, how did you find that? Man, it reminds me, it set me down a path. And when you remind me now, like, I love hearing you say it. And I want to bring it full circle. And I want to honor our time together that I was just in Tokyo supporting a team and some athletes. And one of the athletes who ended up by the way winning gold we're sitting down and talking about like what is the mission for the games for you

and this athlete said peace and presence when you're at peace you can be successful at anything that's a great way to end i want to say thank you and for your spirit, for the intelligence and the sensitivities to the humanists and this beautiful, you know, track record that you bring into this conversation by being a trailblazer and leading with awareness, deep awareness. And so I just want to say thank you. And if there's anything I can do to support your mission, you got me. And yeah, thank you. And if there's anything I can do to support your mission, you got me. And yeah, thank you. I've enjoyed our conversation. It's very enlightening and inspiring. So I appreciate it. Thank you. How would you name this podcast? What would you name it? Because we went places now. Chit Chat with Kat, learning to be a champion in life.

Kat, thank you. Thank you, Michael. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no- cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're listening.

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