Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Georges St-Pierre, UFC Legend and Two Division Champion

Episode Date: July 3, 2019

This week’s conversation is with Georges "Rush" St-Pierre, also known as “GSP,” a Canadian professional mixed martial artist and UFC world champion who holds black belts in both Kyokushin karate and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu.Georges is recognized as one of the planet's best pound-for-pound MMA fighters and all around athlete.He retired from the sport on December 13, 2013, holding the UFC record for most wins in title bouts.Georges then returned to the octagon after a four-year layoff, on November 4, 2017 at UFC 217 in New York City, where he defeated Michael Bisping by submission in the third round to win the UFC Middleweight Championship title, becoming the fourth fighter in the history of the organization to be a multi-division champion.On December 7, 2017, after being diagnosed with ulcerative colitis, Georges vacated his UFC middleweight title and officially announced his retirement from professional MMA competition on February 21, 2019.I found this conversation fascinating and I think you’ll be surprised to learn that while Georges may arguably be the greatest MMA fighter of all time, he actually doesn’t really like to fight.Wild.Georges also shares why the key to his sustained success is also the same thing that drove him into retirement._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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Terms and conditions apply. Finding Mastery is brought to you by David Protein. I'm pretty intentional about what I eat and the majority of my nutrition comes from whole foods. And when I'm pretty intentional about what I eat. And the majority of my nutrition comes from whole foods. And when I'm traveling or in between meals on a demanding day, certainly, I need something quick that will support the way that I feel and think and perform. And that's why I've been leaning on David protein bars. And so has the team here at Finding Mastery. In fact, our GM, Stuart, he loves them so much. I just want to kind of quickly put them on the spot. Stuart, I know you're listening. I think you might be the reason that we're running out of these bars so quickly. They're incredible, Mike. I love them.

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So if you're trying to hit your daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David D-A-V-I-D protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash finding mastery. Okay. This week's conversation is with Georges St-Pierre. He's also known as GSP in the MMA mixed martial artist world or the UFC ultimate fighting championship. And he's from Canada, a professional MMA artist, and he's a world champion in two different weight classes. Extraordinary. And he holds

black belts in both Kyokushin karate and Brazilian jujitsu. And Georges is recognized as one of the planet's best pound for pound MMA fighters and all around flat out athlete. He retired from the sport in December of 2013, holding the UFC record for the most wins in title bouts. And then he took a four year hiatus from elite sport to take a four year hiatus is incredible. So then he comes back to the octagon, back to the UFC in November 2017. He fought in New York City where he defeated Michael Brisbane and he did it by submission in the third round to win the UFC middleweight championship title. And that's where he becomes the fourth fighter in the history of the organization, in the history of the sport, to be a multi-division champion. Then a month later, after being diagnosed with ulcerative

colitis, Georges vacated the UFC middleweight title and officially announced his retirement from the sport February in 2019, just a few months ago. In this conversation, you'll absolutely get why he is so successful. I mean, we talk about the light side, the dark side, the cost. We talk about the whole thing. And I think you'll be surprised to learn that while George's may be arguably the best fighter of all time, he actually doesn't really like to fight. It's crazy. And it makes sense when you hear him talk about it. So he also shares why the key to his sustained success is also the same thing that drove him into retirement. Double-edged sword.

Okay, so with that, let's jump right into this conversation with Georges St-Pierre. Georges, how are you? Fantastic, Mike. Thank you for having me. Oh, yeah, for sure. And obviously, you've got a nice, thick French accent, accent you know can you tell us a little bit about what it was like growing up well I grew up in a French speaking environment and yeah so I learned English I learned how to speak English a little bit late in my life because of course we learn it at school but when

you're in a class after when the class is over you go back in your natural language and form of expression so you go back to speaking French so the best way to learn a language is how I did I got had to I went to United States and I I got I had to spend time there by myself. So I had no choice to use English to get around and to kind of get food and training and learn stuff, you know? Yeah. So you were immersed in the culture. That's really how you learned it.

Yeah. really how you learned it yeah i think if you try to learn by studying in school it's not it's not enough because your your natural instinct are always to go back to what you're comfortable with so for me it was you know if you get plunged in an environment that you have no choice to to speak that the language it's it's you learn faster. Is that the same way that you learned sport by completely immersing yourself in a highly skilled environment or an environment that was saturated with the nuances of the craft? Can you talk about how you learned your craft? Well, I got involved with martial art, with karate at first because I was bullied at school. I was in a school where there was a telekinetic teenager's program, and those kids were much older than the other kids.

And there's the kids that I had problems with. So I used to get beat up pretty much every week in school, in average. So I had a big problem growing up at school because instead of focusing on what the teacher was telling us and learning, I was focusing more on how I'm going to get out of the class at the end and reach the bus without getting beat up by those guys who were waiting for me, you know, before I take the bus. So my mind was not at the right places. And I always wanted to learn martial art to defend myself. I started doing karate at age nine, at nine, nine years old. I actually started at seven with my dad teaching me

but I started at nine in a school to learn how to defend myself and what teach me what martial art teach me is because I wanted to change my environment you know and I try I was trying to change my environment but the environment something you don't control it so what I realized and what martial art teach me is to change to change my environment i had to look at myself in the mirror and change myself first growing up i was a kid that lacked lacked a lot of confidence i was not a confident kid and it shows in my attitude you know i was not i was not having a good image of myself, self-image of myself. So martial arts teach me that confidence, it's a state of mind.

Confidence is not a state of mind. It's a choice. You can increase your confidence with different exercise. And that's the same thing I use in every fight, you know. And that's what I learned growing up in school and having to face bullying at a very young age. And that's what I use when I when I fight. You know, it's like they say in English is that you fake it until you make it. I put a mask. I act like a champion.

I try to to act like it's impossible to fail for me, that I happy and i and i'm excited to find out how i'm gonna win the fight and have more winners attitude look more like a confident person even though deep down inside i'm scared and nervous the image that i represent and that i that i carry is different than how i feel and what happened by doing that after a certain time, psychologically, you're changing. You become confident for real, and you become a different person because of that attitude that you portrayed. And that's what helped me to get over bullying.

I didn't get over bullying by beating up the bullies like you see in Hollywood movies. I got over it just because I changed my attitude. I look more like a confident kid. I used to walk up with my shoulder and up and look down, you know, with a big sign of lack of confidence. But what happened, martial arts teach me to stand up straight. When I shake hands, I have a firm shake shake and I look people in the

eyes and I my shoulders are down and straight up I look more solid you know I don't look like a victim and I should never consider myself as a victim and that's how I get over bullying and that's how I approach every challenge in my life with a sign of confidence. And that's how I use that in my career as a fighter as well. Okay. So this idea of fake you till you make it, I want to pull into or dive into that a little bit. Because when I think about confidence, that is not how I think the most sturdy or stable way to build confidence is.

And I hear it. I hear why you built it. I understand the need for you to present a particular way. And I just like, when I think about confidence, I drive into like, okay, it's really important to authentically speak to yourself in ways where you think that you have everything it takes to meet the challenge. And if you don't have the skills that you have the ability to figure it out as you go. So like, yeah. So does that not, do you disagree with that? Like maybe a way to answer that eloquently would be, or for me to ask the question more eloquently, would be if you were grooming a fighter, would you want him

to fake it or would you want him to do something else to build his confidence? No, of course, it doesn't come by magic. The work needs to be done. I'm talking about just the front, the image that you want to portray. However, you need to get the work done. Of course, I became more confident knowing that I could defend myself in the eventuality of someone was attacking me

because my knowledge of self-defense increases in the in the schoolyard also as a fighter it's like i'm training very hard and i leave i leave no stone unturned there you go yeah there you go yeah my confidence come from how i prepare myself every day it's like if you if you have an exam at school if you have an exam at school and you don't study, for sure you're not going to be confident. Even if you try to fake it, it's going to be very hard to fake it. You can fake it if you're a good actor, but deep down inside, you're not going to have that transformation, psychological transformation that comes with it because you know you're lying to yourself. I'm not lying to myself because I know I put the work into it. However, the fear of failure is always there. Even though I know I've done all the work that comes with it, I'm still afraid

because there's a part of it that I don't control. But I try to only focus on things that I control. And by focusing on things that I control and I do the best with it, the rest will take care of itself. And if I fail, I fail because the guy is better than me. I did not fail because I did not throughput the work that comes into it. So I better win big or lose big. So that's how I see it. I go all in, and that's how it is. I love that.

So you're more afraid of failure than you are breaking a nose, breaking an arm, or losing a fight. It sounds like... Yes. Okay, so what does failure mean to you? How do you define it? Failure for me and I always been I always been ready to fail even though I'm very scared of failure I'm always

been ready to fail because in a failure if you fail in a way because it's your fault that you didn't you cut corners or you didn't do your homework, that's your fault. And you deserve to fail. You deserve to fail. You deserve to... Let's say I didn't study enough my opponent in a fight or I didn't train as hard as I should and I failed because of lack of conditioning or lack of knowledge of what my opponents bring on the table. This is my fault.

However, if I put all the work into it and I did not cut corners, but in the fight during an exchange, I just got cut with a looping punch and I got knocked out. You know, this thing happens because it's an X factor that you do not control. So if I lose because of that, it will be easier for me to come back with confidence in my next fight. You know, that if I know if I fail because of, you know, my own mistake, you know what I mean?

I don't think it would be, I mis-explain myself. I would not say it's easier to come back, but it will be less frustrating. I will not be as frustrating about myself as if I lose because I got caught by something that I was not expecting, or if I know I lose because of myself. That would be very frustrating yeah of course it will be very hard to come back from a loss yeah but it would

be less frustrating okay really cool insight and so it's about preparation ridiculous relentless chipping all in preparation for you and then when the cage door closes and it's you and another man across from you, and he's highly skilled and you're highly skilled and you know you've done your work, your conditioning is on point, you have a good strategy, you understand his tendencies, and your heart begins to pound, your body has a little bit more adrenaline than it's used to. What do you do with your mind? How do you organize your mind when your body has a little bit more adrenaline than it's used to. What do you do with your mind? How do you organize your mind when your body has switched on more than it's accustomed to? What do you do in those moments?

So when you're competing, of course, the weight is the hardest part. But for me, when it's time to walk on i'm on i'm on cruise control there is nothing i can do to to change because from now on i'm on for me i see it as a as i'm in cruise control because my computer is set to react in a certain way to different scenario and those thing has been work and training so many times so many repetitions that it's too late to change anything i cannot step it up or step it down because it's gonna happen how i've been training it like the same thing the same repetition will occur that i've been doing in training. If a jab gets thrown to me and I repeat, and I train to react in a certain way during training,

the night of the fight, I'm not going to react a different way that I've been training to react during all those times that I've been doing in training. So for me, when it's time to walk in the cage, there's only one thing to focus on for me, when it's time to walk in the cage, there's only one thing to focus on for me. I know that if I try to be too much focused on what's going on, I'm missing out what my coaches are yelling at me. I'm missing out on how much time left there is, you know, because I need to look at the clock. Sometimes I need to be aware of my environment that surrounds me to perform better.

And I'm missing that if I'm too focused on my opponent. If I'm not focused enough on my opponent, it's not good either because I might get clipped by something that I haven't seen. So there is a perfect funnel that is not to be too focused and not to be not enough focused. There's the perfect optimal performance of focus that you need to be in.

It's called the zone. And for me, that's what I try to be. Sometimes I was overthinking stuff and I had problems in my fight because I was too much overthinking, because I was too much focusing on what is going on. And sometimes it's good to be a little bit less. And that's when you perform better. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentous. When it comes to high performance,

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we talk about the zone, which is like flow state, that most optimal state. And it's this mix that you're talking about between a wide focus and a narrow concentration. And then there's also the zone of optimal functioning. And that encompasses when our body is primed for the task at hand and our mind is confident and we are approaching the challenge in an open way, but with high command of our skills. And are you talking about the zone of optimal functioning or are you talking about that most optimal state where it feels like everything is completely fluid?

Yeah, I'm talking about the optimal state. For me, when I perform, all the fights that I perform better, it would sound silly, but the fight that I perform better, it's not the fight that I only focus on my opponent. The fight that I perform better, I know where all my friends are sitting in the crowd. I know how much time left there is. There is even one fight that I'm fighting BJ Penn, and I was looking through the fence.

During the fight, I look at Cindy Crawford, and I thought, oh, wow, how beautiful she is. And then I told myself, I said, oh, I better go back to fighting because I'm, you know, I'm going to be too much distracted. Because when you fight, sometimes you have the impression that the time stops. If you watch the movie Rocky, sometimes everything goes in slow motion. And this is true. That's something that really happens in a fight. You have the impression that you're kind of in a dream. But this thing, when it happens to you,

you cannot let it take you out of what is the most important thing that is happening right now. I think it's good to be aware of your environment, to be focusing on what's going on, but yet be aware of your environment, to be focused, but not too focused and not too much distracted in the same time

it's a perfect perfect center where I think the optimal performance occur and perhaps every individual is different I mean I know that for me personally that's that's how I perform the best. When I'm too much focused, I'm overthinking stuff. And overthinking creates paralysis sometimes. You're reacting a second too late because you're thinking too much ahead. And if you're not enough focused, you might get clipped by a punch that you haven't seen. So, you know, there's a perfect zone. Yeah. So we've got a mutual friend, John Berardi, who is a world-class nutrition expert and scientist, and he's created amazing

systems for nutrition. Obviously, you know, John and work on your nutrition game at a high level. What do you do to prepare your mind? Is it imagery? Is it meditation meditation is it self-talk is it goal-setting is it all of that is it breathing work pre-performance routines like what are the things that you do to prepare your mind I think I think one thing that is good that I was good for me I'm a little bit obsessive-compulsive. And I think one of the good things is when you want to be champion or the best at something, you need to be more than dedicated to this thing. You need to be obsessed. And I'm talking about being the best in the world at something.

You need to be obsessed by it. You need to dream about it, to think about it, to breathe it, to eat it. Every time you have a second, you need to think about it. And that's how I always was during my career. And always when I knew I was about to fight someone, when I knew I was going to fight someone, I always had imagery. And sometimes in those scenarios, I was winning, but also sometimes I was losing. But it's always important for me that if I'm losing my visualization scenario, I need to focus on finishing it in a way that I take back the upper end. For example, if I'm visualizing an image occur in my head of my next fight

and I'm visualizing getting punched and I fell down, I cannot stop my visualization right there. I have to see what what's gonna happen next to this so i see myself getting back up and and hitting him back or taking him back down so i finish on a good on a positive way then i can i can stop visualizing and and go go on with my life so that's one thing that i always did. I never finish on a negative note. I always finish on a positive. I always finish in the upper end.

Cool thought. And then when you organize your world, what is it that you're craving and searching for? What is it that you're most hungry for in life? What is the thing underneath the drive? For a sport, I thought when I was young, I thought that nervousness and fear will disappear over time. But I realized that it doesn't disappear, but it gets even worse. The only thing that changes is that I accept it,

and I know it's going to be there, and I know how to deal with it. Mike Tyson coaches, Kusumoto, used to say, fear is like fire. It can help you cook your food, but it can also burn you. And you see a lot of guys, they are very good in the gym, but when they get under the spotlight, they freeze. It happens to a lot of people. And the reason why I think I was able to perform well is I was able to control it.

Now with the experience, I know that I'm going to be scared when the fight is coming. I know I'm not going to sleep well a week of the fight, but I accept it. I know it's a fact. And when I was young, I was like freaking out because I was like, oh my God, I only sleep four hours the night before the fight. Holy shit. And I was putting more pressure on myself because I was like, man, I'm not going to be able to perform at my best because I lack sleeping. But now I know that it's a normal thing. It's my instinct. I have a hard time sleeping before the fight, the night of the fight, because I have so many scenarios in my head.

It's crazy. But now I accept it. I know it's normal. I know it's a process I have to go through. It's a suffering process that I have to go through before a fight, and I accept it. I know it's normal. I know it's a process I have to go through. It's a suffering process that I have to go through before a fight. And I accept it. So I don't freak out about it anymore. But it's still as bad as it was. The only difference is that I accept it now. Do you have a meditation or a mindfulness practice? Because your awareness of your inner world as well as your

awareness of what's happening around you is really high and have you practiced mindfulness or meditation or any of those advanced skills for awareness training i don't know if it's mid station that we that i call meditation but i i do a lot of imagery. And all of my imagery that I do, like I said, it always ends on a positive way. Right, okay. Because as a human being, if you're a smart person, you're aware of the danger. And if you're aware of the danger,

for sure sometimes you're going to have thoughts that go through your mind that bad scenarios happen bad imagery happen if you want it or not because you don't control what is going on in your brain all the time so what happened is if you have bad imagery that start in your processing thoughts you need to make sure that you flip those imagery you you make sure the scenario the movie that is happening in your mind finish good on a positive way so when you when you close when the movie finish it finish with a good ending and that's what i do in my mind all the time even though i don't have the upper hand all the time, I don't never finish the movie with me losing. I always finish with the movie that me struggling, getting back the

upper hand and winning at the end. And this is very important for me. So I think like when we do imagery, I usually have folks do like an 85-15. So 85% of the time it's success driven. It's getting the right vibe and executing, whether it's in slow-mo or real time or somewhere in between, like at a very high level. And then the 15% is like getting caught with a left or something takes place and you find yourself, you know, on your back in a bad position. Is that about the same ratio that you're using or is it more 50 50 somewhere in between what percent like the basic question is what percentage of the time are you seeing it

where it's success driven and what percentage of the time is it like you're you're fighting your way from some a difficult position it's a good question i think it's about maybe 80 to 20, or I would say 75 positive and 25 negative. But I can tell you for sure, it always, always ends with a 100% ratio positive. But it doesn't always start with the positive yeah but it always end with it because i force myself to finish it this way and can you can you see it obviously but can you feel it and taste it and smell it is it in color can you manipulate it from a lot of different directions are you in your own body or watching from the corner of the cage? Can you walk through some of those mechanics and include the duration?

Is it like three minutes a day, 30 minutes a day? I never do it. I never spend time of the day doing it. The only time I spend time of my day doing it it's before the before the big the big fight right the day before the fight I like tonight I like to do a rehearsal in the night before so what I do is I get access to the theater what the the place where I'm gonna fight I have a special access I have a friend that gets a special access.

I walk from my locker room. I do my walkout. So I walk from my locker room, and now I visualize when I'm going to be called, how I'm going to walk, how I'm going to reach the octagon. Then when I'm in the octagon, how I'm going to fight. And then I always finish with my hand raised. And then I try to imagine the crowd applauding me and me being happy of winning and that feeling of gratitude and happiness that I'm going to have winning the fight. And then I'm walking back after the fight, going back to the locker room and shut down my emotion and now thinking, oh, it's all over and being happy and

ready to go to the press conference i do that because when i fight the night of the fight i feel like it's it's like a real i will feel like it's not the first time that i've done it it's i will recognize certain pattern and it will be a little bit like muscle memory i will recognize and i set myself for success for success doing this you know what i mean yeah for sure and and i want to get it right you only would do it the night before or is that when you do it the most i do it the night before and i do it also in the more the morning when after my breakfast when i wake up in the morning after my breakfast, when I wake up in the afternoon, I do it the day of the fight. So sometimes I can't, but if I have a chance, I do it the night before, for sure, 100% the night before. So I go to sleep with a good, positive vibe and I do it the day of, if I can do it. Yeah, cool. If I can have access. So you're really intense.

And, you know, like, it just jumps out of this conversation how intense you are and how obsessed you use your language about, you know, becoming the best. And I want to, I've got a two-part question here and then I want to wrap up

because I know that we're on a time demand here. The two-part question is how do you manage your intensity? And then the second is, were you trying to be the best or your best? I tried to be, you know, I always wanted to be the best, you know, the best in the world at what I do. However, I always had the confidence because I work very hard. And I think it's a combination of talent. Also, I work very hard. And I also have the chance.

I think there is a part of it that is chances. I met very good people at the right time, and it's a question of timing. I think all that together makes it. You know, if you want to be champion, you need to have all that things together. You know, to be genetically good athletes, to work very hard, also to meet the right person, be at the right moment at the right time and make the right choices. I think it's a combination of all that.

And also you need to be obsessed because if you're obsessed and more driven about what you do, it's like when you play poker with someone at the same skill as yours, but you have more chip than him. So you have more chance to win because you're ready to put more into it to obtain what you want. And I think that's one of the big key to success for me was my obsession of becoming the best. And by having that obsession of becoming the best, I was able to always perform at my best. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep.

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Because there is a dark side to those that are monofocus. Yeah. That's why I retire. It weighs on you. It weighs on your shoulder. The reason why I retire, people, they ask me all the time, they say, oh, you retire because you were afraid of the punch to the head. I always said, I'm more afraid of the stress that I put on my shoulder

than the brain damage that the sport gave me. Because, you know, the brain damage is more in training than in the fight because in a fight, you maybe fight three times a year, but you train every day. But I'm known as a technician. I never, you know, train like an idiot. You know, I'm very aware of the brain damage. But for me, the stress that I put on my shoulder because I'm so extreme and I do that also because I know that I that I

am at my best when I'm over the edge you know I'm at the edge and I know I have to go all in that's when I perform at my best that's that's how I am an extremist person and that's how it is for me and I put so much on my shoulder that after a while after many years it weighs on you and it creates create a lot of stress and now we know that stress is the cause of many diseases and that's why I was the most the most I would say aware of for my well-being, you know, about the stress. Well said, well said. Okay, so on that note, what has your love life been like?

My love life was always hard because of my obsession for the job that I do. For me, when I was competing, my most important thing in my life because I was by myself, it was my obsession of becoming the best fighter and I was very obsessed so that always been number one for me and training and work was always number one and it's hard for a woman because to to always pass in second you know that that's why it was very hard for me to find the the perfect woman and drink that time because it's hard for a woman to be second you know women normally they want to be first but in my situation because it's so much it's a sport that is very dangerous and so extreme that you need you need to put so much into it i was always putting my

career and my my uh my sport first you know and and this is something for women it's not easy to accept you know it's very hard how about now now that you've been retired now the game for a little bit you know is your love life flourishing or is it still something that you struggle with because of the patterns that you developed early days? I'm a celebrity. I always have a shield that I put, you know, like when I do a documentary or interview about families and stuff like that, love. Because me, I'm a celebrity, but I always protect the person I love and the person I spend time with by not putting them public because for me it's very important that this is my circle of privacy and this is something that I

keep very close to the outside world. So one time I remember, just to give you an example how crazy it gets sometimes, there were cameras that followed me for my training and my life, and they came to my house where I grew up, to my parents' house. And I'm from the countryside. And because I exposed my family and my parents,

only one time. Then I remember there were a bunch of people that found out where I live, and they start knocking at my door because I'm from countryside, and they look in the phone book, they look at St. Pierre, and it's very easy to find. So then they were coming in my parents' house, trying to find out where I live, and, hey, can I talk to George and my parents? You know, they're from countryside they grew up a little bit in in a naive naive ways you know so they're very nice to everybody and they were like very gentle to everybody but I was telling him as I look you don't know

these people you know you don't know what their intention you don't know what they want it's very dangerous you you know. So for this reason, I close everything that regards my personal life. It's very important for me to protect the person I love and I spend time with. I see a lot of celebrities, what they do is they post a picture and video with their wife and kids and parents and sisters. And I think it's a mistake. For me, maybe I'm paranoid, but from what I found out, for me, it's a mistake for me to do that.

So I never do that. That's why you never see anything like this on my social media or nothing. It's something that I keep completely out of my of my personal life yeah it sounds like you've got a clear understanding of what your sanctuary is and family and intimate relationships are part of it and so um you're just very disciplined about that yeah yeah because i think it's a circle you you know. As a person, there's the physical, there's the psychological, and there's the emotional. If one of these things, like a triangle,

if one of these things doesn't work well, you're not at your best. You're not able to perform your task at your best. And this, I'm talking not about an athlete. I'm talking about any field of work, a lawyer, an engineer, a janitor, anything. If one of these things doesn't work well, physical, emotional, and psychological you you have a problem and someone someone attack your your family and someone you love you uh you will have a problem okay do you have a spiritual framework do you have any sense of um like you know bigger order things like how we got here what spirituality means do you have any practice there i i am not a religious person i grew i grew up in

a my family is a catholic christian you know but i am not a religious person me i i question a lot of things sometimes and i'm not afraid to say the answer is i don't know. You know, like I don't know how I get here. I don't know if there is a God. I don't know. I respect every religion, every form of belief. But I would say I would qualify myself as an agnostic. You know, I'm not an atheist because being an atheist, you don't believe in anything. I just don't know. I think it's three words. I don't know. For me, I'm ag beautiful philosophy. But I'm wondering, when I ask you more open-ended, do you have a philosophy that guides your

decisions, your actions, even your words? What comes to mind? I have a philosophy, but it's not a religious philosophy. People that are religious, they follow a certain code that comes with their religion okay they they don't act in a different ways they they do certain things they don't eat certain stuff me i don't do anything like this i the only thing i i i try to to to focus on as a code is that i try to not do to someone something that i would not like be done on myself you know that that's the only thing I do not care what's the you know where what's the people background what they believe

it's fine I think it's okay they can believe whatever they want but I don't want to do I try to not do to not harm anybody you anybody the best I can. That's my mentality. It's cool hearing that from you, knowing that as a cage fighter, part of your job is to inflict pain or harm and sometimes even leave destruction to the physical form of somebody. How do you balance those two for you? I don't really like I

hate it I only fight because I had to do it in order to live my life I if I wanted to have the lifestyle that I have I needed to fight to do it you know it need need every everything you have in, there's a price to pay. And the price of my freedom and my lifestyle is to fight. It was to fight. But now I don't need to fight. That's why I retire, you know. I like the training, the science of it.

Because for me, it's not fighting, it's playing. I like to play. In training, I play. But when I'm under the spotlight and it's and it's for real it's not playing because you risk your life you even in training sometimes you can risk your life you can get caught with something you can it could be dangerous we don't play golf but in a fight sometimes it's not playing it's for real you you you you you're under stress and your well-being can be affected there's a x factor that you don't control and this is why i i hate to fight it's very

it's very stressful it's very hard however it's a price to pay if i want to have the freedom and the access that i have on certain things and the life that I have. What an incredible, complex, you know, internal ecosystem that you have, you know, that you're so skilled and so dedicated. You are orientated towards compassion. And then the conflict of actually being a fighter saying, but I don't like the destruction and the intense risk that comes with it, but it's created incredible freedoms. I remember I used to see a sports psychologist. I meet another sports psychologist.

And you're a sports psychologist, so you will understand. Yeah, yeah. Sports psychologist used to say, oh, my fight is coming up. And I used to say, I'm scared. He's like, George, don't say you're scared. You're excited.

And I used to say, hell no, I'm not excited. I'm excited when I see a beautiful naked woman. I'm excited when I've been fasting for five days, and I know I'm about to eat my favorite dish. I'm excited when it's freezing cold winter in Montreal, and I know I'm going to Bahamas on vacation for a week. That. I'm excited when it's freezing cold winter in Montreal and I know I'm going to Bahamas on vacation for a week. That's I'm excited. I'm not excited to go in and fight in front of thousands of people and not knowing if I'm going to get humiliated or if I'm going to reach the extreme happiness of winning. I'm not excited about the uncertainty of the outcome of the fight. This is for me not excited at all. I'm scared and I'm not afraid to admit that I'm scared,

but I'm going to do something. That's when I perform at my best, when I'm feeling that way. And I know it and I am ready to deal with it. I love it. I love it. Yeah. Yeah. The idea that, you know, to convert butterflies from fear to excitement is a little crazy. There can be some small shift that we can make and we can interpret butterflies in some ways or that activation that takes place. But in the big order, I love that you're saying, no, listen, I'm afraid and I'm going to learn how to manage that fear. I'm going to learn how to manage that fear. I'm going to learn how to prepare in a world-class way.

I'm going to fully commit to it. And I'm going to manage this fear. And I need tools and want tools to manage the fear. Does that sound like your approach? Yes. It's just that for me, the word exciting, because maybe I'm from from French-speaking culture, but the word exciting, it really does not apply to this scenario of my life.

Especially not when I'm a week away from a fight. Hell no. I would like to be anywhere else in the world except to be in the situation that I am. That's wild. For as good as you are, to have that inner conflict, to one, announce it so that you can actually work with it and wrestle with it is a demonstration of your courage. But to thrive with that conflict, I think it's phenomenal. Okay, have you found what you're looking for? Like the big question, not like the little, like, have you found your keys to your car? But like, have you found what you're looking for and you're searching for your whole life? No, I don't think so.

I think, you know, if I found what I look for, that means I will have nothing to live for. You know what I mean? I would say that I'm very happy, but, you know, like, for example, my situation, I wanted to fight Khabib, and Khabib wanted to fight me, but the UFC refused to organize the fight because they had other plans for Khabib. And now they offer me other fights, but it's not worth for me to take those fights. And if you ask me if I found what I look for, it means happiness and satisfaction.

The day that an athlete says that he's satisfied is the day that he should retire. So for me, I always wanted to come back and do a different challenge. That's why I fought Michael Bisping. It was a different challenge. I never went up to fight in a higher and a heavier weight class against a champion in a heavier weight class, win in a stoppage, you know, and that was another criticizer and put more emphasis on the emotional part during the promotion.

That was a new challenge for me, so that's why I was hungry to do it. Khabib was another story. I was hungry to do it. Khabib was another story I was hungry to fight a fighter that seems undefeated that had that has an aura of invincibility that never lost before it's the scariest thing to do but it's also the most exciting thing to do as a competitor and that's why I wanted to do it. But now, because there is not this option offered to me, I'm not, you know, that's why I'm satisfied with what I have

and I don't want to go back and fight for something else that I've been doing the same time, the same thing that I've been doing for my whole career because I won't be, I won't have the same motivation. And if I don't have the same thing that I've been doing for my whole career because I won't be I won't have the same motivation and if I don't have the same motivation I will not be as good as as the performance I will not be as good as I if it's something that I'm more tried to do that I'm more uh you know obsessed and and something new like a new challenge you know that that's in that sense I did not find what I want you know but i'm if if

there is no other option i'm compelled to to retire and i'm happy with what i did you know so it's okay i don't know it's hard to explain but that's how i a little bit i feel yeah no i think i you painted that picture well so arguably the greatest mixed martial artist of all time. How do you think about or define the concept of mastery? Well, mastering is, I believe it's, I, it's someone that, that like for me, I always wanted to be the perfect fighter. However, perfection, it's impossible. You will never be able to reach perfection. One thing you're going to be able to do is to get closer to perfection. The more you work, the closer you will be, but you will never touch it. You will never achieve it. And you will be as close as possible, but you will never touch it.

It's like the, you know, like in mathematics, you know, you will be close to the line, but never be able to touch it. You know, and that's how a little bit I see it. Beautiful. Okay, so I just want to say thank you for your time. Your mind is impressive. Your body of work is equally as impressive. And, you know, I'm wishing you the greatest flourishing in life. And I just want to say thank you. Thank you, Mike. Take care and hope everything goes well for you. Okay. All the best. Thank you. Take care.

Yeah. Okay. Bye. All right. Thank you so much care. Yeah. Okay. Bye. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're listening. Also, if you haven't already, please consider dropping us a review on Apple or Spotify. We are incredibly grateful for the support and feedback. If you're looking for even more insights, we have a newsletter

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Lastly, as a quick reminder, information in this podcast and from any material on the Finding Mastery website and social channels is for information purposes only if you're looking for meaningful support which we all need one of the best things you can do is to talk to a licensed professional so seek assistance from your health care providers again a sincere thank you for listening until next episode be well think well keep exploring