Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Get Fit in 5 Minutes? Revolutionizing the Health and Fitness Industry | Ulrich Dempfle

Episode Date: May 4, 2022

This week’s conversation is with Ulrich Dempfle, the CEO & Co-Founder of CAROL. Ulrich graduated in mechanical engineering from Germany’s leading tech university and after working with Europe’s top automotive manufacturers, moved to London where he pioneered AI healthcare initiatives, optimizing operational efficiency for the National Health Service.A BBC documentary on reduced exertion high-intensity training (REHIT) made Ulrich realize there was massive potential for a new groundbreaking form of cardio. The problem? REHIT was only possible in a lab setting. So, Ulrich co-founded CAROL and partnered with the world’s leading exercise researchers to take REHIT out of the lab. 40 prototypes later, the world’s first and only REHIT exercise bike was launched. I’ve always been intrigued by cutting edge products and innovative tools that help people enhance their lives and explore their potential – that’s one of the reasons I’ve been so excited about our partnership with CAROL and was so excited to sit down with Ulrich.And, just a reminder to our community if you find yourself wanting a CAROL bike, Ulrich is hooking us up with a free membership for life! Head to carolbike.com and use code FINDINGMASTERY at checkout._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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One a day, one a day. What do you mean one a day? There's way more than that happening here. Don't tell. Okay. All right. Look, they're incredibly simple they're effective 28 grams of protein just 150 calories and zero grams of sugar it's rare to find something that fits so conveniently into a performance-based lifestyle and actually tastes good dr peter attia someone who's been on the show it's a great episode by the way is also their chief science officer so i know they've done their due diligence in that category. My favorite flavor right now is the chocolate chip cookie dough and a few of our teammates here at Finding Mastery have been loving the fudge brownie

and peanut butter. I know Stuart, you're still listening here. So getting enough protein matters and that can't be understated, not just for strength, but for energy and focus, recovery, for longevity. And I love that David is making that easier. So if you're trying to hit your daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash finding mastery. Now, this week's conversation is with Ulrich Dempfli. Ulrich is a mechanical engineer and co-founded Carol and partnered with the world's leading exercise researchers to take ReHIT out of the lab, 40 prototypes later, the world's

first and only ReHIT exercise bike that was launched. We're going to talk about ReHIT in this conversation. I've always been intrigued by cutting edge products and innovative tools that help people enhance their lives to explore their potential. And so that's one of the reasons I've been so excited about our partnership with Carol. And I'm really excited to sit down with Ulrich today. So with that, let's jump right into this conversation with Ulrich.

Ulrich, how are you? I'm very well, thank you. Hi Michael, how are you? I'm great. Life is pretty good. You know, there's the obvious challenges that we all have. And, you know, I enjoy's the obvious challenges that we all have and you know i enjoy staring them down as to my best ability so i feel energized by the amount of challenges

i have in my life um so all that being said just for some fun context i've always been interested in innovation and cutting edge and in both the people and the products that are pushing up against the limits, the edges, if you will. And our team at Finding Mastery, we're kind of maniacs when it comes to wanting to understand what it takes to be able to change a family legacy, change an industry, change whatever. And so we love this change process and you've created something, you know, to help enhance the lives of people. Can you start with like this idea about where you first were attracted to getting the process of using science to get better? Like bring us back even, you know, to childhood or late adolescence or whenever it might be but when did you become interested in this improvement process and the science to support it sure so i i actually

grew up in a in a family of scientists of academics and if i look around me still there's um i'm a little bit the i would almost say the black sheep because i'm at heart more an engineer so slightly more practical but i've got that um kind of scientific knack basically with the with the family upbringing but really what what was my dream was always just to you know to build something build something, ideally something you can sit on. And as a child and teenager, I was really clear that I wanted to one day design a car or a plane. And so I studied mechanical engineering and followed that path. And at some point it dawned to me that people don't actually design a whole car or plane

it's more thousands of engineers many thousands of engineers actually work together and any one of them could design the left door ashtray in the back yeah and so that that was too narrow for me. I became actually a management consultant and worked most of my professional life in healthcare with hospitals and with healthcare systems. And then through pure coincidence, our team came across the science of REHIT. That's reduced exertion, high intensity interval training, by this virtue of luck, pursued the idea of building CAROL. I think maybe if your listeners are not, we should maybe introduce it for a second, which is a AI powered exercise bike that helps people get healthy and fit with basically the shortest possible and most effective workouts. So now it is something you can sit on. Yeah. And I'm actually, so if I were to show my current job description to my 15 yearyear-old self, I think I'd be pretty pleased and think

that, yeah, that's what I was meant to do. But the actual moment when it all happened was pure coincidence. I love what you just did. So I want to get into Rehit as a technology and Carol as a technology in just a minute. But this idea that if I were to look or have a conversation with my 15 year old self about the job description that I have created or that I'm living by right now, that's a cool framework. So was it, was it really 15 when you're like, I want to design things that you sit on to be able to, and did you also have the interest in,

like, was it to build something cool? Was it to build something purposeful for growth? Was there a second note to the idea that I want to build something that you sit on? Because sitting on things like that feels pretty random to me. So sitting on is paraphrasing for something really quite tangible. So more than just a software program or an app or so, but really a physical product. And yes, absolutely.

That's probably from 10 to 18 or so. I was entirely clear that that's what I wanted to do. And yeah, so I studied mechanical engineering, what you would study if you want to build cars or airplanes and then somehow got sidetracked into oh where do i get um you know like where the entry salary is better or is it too specific um and and uh joined a large consultancy firm and then things meandered in in a way and I I found this meaningful um I I did I think very meaningful things uh there I I loved working in health care actually it's really oh Rick wait hold on I don't want to lose this track like I love what you're doing because it's like

you had a dream an idea when you're 15. and you started in a way that felt organic and then you said okay I was a little bit distracted by money I was a little distracted by getting in and going to places that look cool or sounded cool it was a little and then there was a little meandering because the path was not charted about how to build this thing that this 15 year old kid was musing about. And I know you didn't say I'm going to build one of the, you know, premier technologies in fitness that is backed on a new theory, you know, one day to be built later. Like I know I get that, but I love this because I feel like I fit in that too. I had this idea when I was a young kid and I was distracted and meandering and I didn't have a path. I love, I'm appreciating that a lot right now.

Yeah. I mean, in some ways at university, you know, you think about like, what's the most difficult employer to get into the most prestigious firm to start with. And, you know, that's what I did at the time. And I think I achieved that. And kind of big name consultancy firm, doesn't matter which one. I had a very, okay, so this is where you and I differ. I had a very different path there. I was way more amassed than you.

Okay, so you were on it. You're like, okay, this is a stepping stone to something. So there's the engineering kind of logic. So there's one that's kind of like a passion for products and content and what you do. The other is also just being driven and wanting to kind of, you know, do things as well as possible and be as high achieving as possible. Where did that come from? It's a character flaw. Was this introduced by your family?

Like high performance, something? Yeah, maybe. But I think it's really just a character flaw. In some ways, I do think I could you say given any task and and then wanting to perform as well as possible as i could at that that's you know being driven and and um sometimes it's a good thing sometimes it's um it's also a bit of a challenge yeah wait let's open this up because this is going to eventually get to the innovation that you've you've created but so you said it's a little bit of a

character flaw there's a burden to it but it's also part of part of the way that you approach life okay i'm getting it all right this is great And then so now let's kind of talk quickly about the darker side of having this high achieving, high performance approach. You hinted at it. But are you just saying that to kind of glibly? Or do you really have an inner struggle? people around me which i sometimes disagree sometimes i accept it have told me that i was a workaholic um and i i can be quite like single track mind and focused and very much um dive into into a subject or kind of like take up a task and just, you know, pursue it like as much as I can. And I think sometimes there are moments where, you know, less is more or less would be more and where it's difficult for me to balance things more. So I'm not a very balanced character. I couldn't say that. If I look back over the years character. I couldn't, I couldn't say that. If I look back over the years, I think, yes, I achieved quite good balance, but it's more kind of like, oh, I did like some years, one thing really intensively and then another period,

other things very intensively. So I hope when I look back in, I don't know, 40 years or 50 years or something like that, that I feel that I had actually a, I don't know, 40 years or 50 years or something like that, that I feel that I had actually a balanced and fulfilled life. But at any one moment, I can be quite focused. Okay, cool. I am not interested in balance, but I'm deeply interested in fulfillment. And fulfillment coming is multidimensional to me. Like the balance I don't get.

I don't understand it. Like I think probably what you're saying is I'm agreeing with is that I find myself pouring in and there's times when it's like a bit of a dark cave and sometimes it's like on the edges, you know, where it's kind of scary and sometimes it's, you know, just lonely and other times it's wonderful. And, but the fulfillment is like, I'm doing work that has purpose and meaning and I'm and sometimes it's just lonely and other times it's wonderful. But the fulfillment is like, I'm doing work that has purpose and meaning and I'm deeply connected to loved ones. That's that multifactorial approach.

Is that what fulfillment is for you? That resonates very well. And I can identify with that. So how do you, and we're going to get to the inspiration here for innovation in just a second. How do you manage the loneliness of trying to create something that is new? There's something that has not been introduced to the world. Like how do you, how do you manage that loneliness that is either you're attracted to it? If you're an introvert,

maybe you're attracted to it or you're just kind of thrusted into it. Yeah, so I am an introvert. Go figure. An engineer, introvert, trying to create something. Go figure. You're coming alive now, Ulrich. You're coming alive. Keep going.

The other thing, so when I joked about a character flaw there's i think character strengths that just go with it and and a decent amount of resilience i think it's also just um something that um that i got given also so um i seem to cope quite well. With what? With being focused and being very hardworking and very driven. So I think if you don't have the resilience to cope with that as well, because there are moments that are, as you said, lonely or dark. So I guess you need to have, there's a bit of like survivor or survival bias, I guess. If I didn't have also that, I wouldn't now be talking to you about Carol and what we've achieved there. So survivor bias, that's a new concept. I want to hit on resilience and I want to come back to survivor bias in a minute. But resilience is not, we think that there's probably some genetic coding to it, but there is a high psychological component to it as well, which is quite simple to understand is that you earn resilience by doing hard things, being deeply challenged by things and feeling like you have the ability to control

your responses. And so there is a bit of a mechanism that sits underneath of it, but it is nearly impossible to build resiliency by eating bonbons, having your feet up in a 70 degrees Fahrenheit every day. Everything's wonderful. Your refrigerator is stocked. It's nearly impossible to build resilience from that mechanism. So are you saying that you feel-

I agree. Totally agree. Okay. Okay. In fact, one, I think quite like a coach I had quite early on in my career, he shared this concept of your inventory of slain dragons but I try to teach my kids or like one of them who's who still has to build his resilience yeah but I tell him like look you've been through all these situations and you've mastered them and you kind of came out on top and that should give you confidence that you'll get through the next challenge as well. So yeah, I agree. Resilience

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And when I'm locked into deep work, they also help me stay focused for longer without digital fatigue creeping in. Plus, they look great. Clean, clear, no funky color distortion. Just good design, great science. And if you're ready to feel the difference for yourself, Felix Gray is offering all Finding Mastery listeners 20% off. Just head to FelixGray.com and use the code FindingMastery20 at checkout. Again, that's Felix Gray. You spell it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com and use the code Finding mastery 20 at felixgray.com for 20% off. Okay. Introvert, engineer, logic, sequence, high drive to build something, high drive to build

something that matters for people. Absolutely. Right. And then you've got, you called it a deep focus. You talked about a high motor. I think I already talked about the drive pit bit here and then um you've got the ability to adjust and adapt which over time creates a sense of resilience and so you're able to persevere during the hard times and that's because the purpose and mission in and the drivers are so important to you. And then do you use like this vision cast,

this ability to use your imagination to see the future? Or are you like, no, no, no, it's just like stay in the process, stay in the process, stay in the process, adjust, adjust, adjust, solve, innovate, create, fix, whatever that's broken. Or are you like, no, there's this idea I have in the future of what this thing is going to do at scale carol is going to do at scale or how much money i want to make or what i want to leave for a legacy for my kids or like is there do you use your imagination to to to go forward

i i would i would almost say no um i'm not a hugely, I can lift myself out and think about what's our strategy and what's our vision, but I'm more driven by kind of perfection in the detail and thinking through kind of, so it's more incrementally making things better and better and better and perfecting them. Obviously, I've learned that you need to have a bigger vision. But that's not the first thing that comes to mind. It's more kind of we take one step at a time and making it better and

better and better and better to achieve, you know, to have a really cool product and a meaningful product. I love, I feel that in your product. And I love that because there's a moment here where you could have said yes, because you thought that I wanted you to say something, which I don't want you to say anything other than truth. And, and, but there could have been a moment right there where you're like, oh yes, but then it's a, it's a bold lie to yourself. So it feels like there's an intellectual honesty and a rigor that you hold yourself to. And I don't know if that comes from the engineering appreciation of like, listen, it just has to be sound, you know,

as a foundation for anything beautiful to take place. Or you just like to suffer. You don't like to muse and think about the future in beautiful ways. But we do like to just, you know, the, at the, the assets of what we do and what we'd like our brand to be is that it's, you know, straight, scientifically backed and honest. Yeah, that's very much,

I hope that people see us that way. Well, you just presented that way in this little micro choice that you made by not getting into like, because I introduced a concept about imagination and if I am introducing it, it would be very simple for somebody to say, oh, well, he finds that to be

a norm or something and by the way i don't i didn't do it for most of my life it wasn't until maybe the last handful of years where i go wait a minute i gotta pull out and i gotta come up above to kind of use that framing like what is the future that I'm working toward? Like, because there's so many choices and I can just like what you're saying, I can get lost in the process of trying to make this detail of this word or sentence, um, or this for the product that I'm building, like to be exactly dialed in, which that is more my nature than kind of flying up and seeing the future. So I appreciate how you answered it okay hold on go back to the survivor bit what did that mean what do you mean by that survivor bias you said um i i think the so running a startup running a young company growing company um what you hear and read of it can be quite like sexy and um you know fascinating um and so it might appear as a a really uh like glamorous career choice um but i would caution

everybody that is actually quite hard um and the you know know, the Mark Zuckerberg's, the Elon Musk's, and so on, that obviously is fantastic. Yeah. But for each one of those, there must be 1000s and 1000s of failed startups. And people who have maybe a good idea, but couldn't do it. And and so that's, that's what I call a survivor bias, You only see the ones who made it to the top and, and that makes it very glamorous and very desirable. But actually the process is, is, is not easy. It's quite hard. And, and so that that's what I meant with that.

I love it. When I ask folks, you know, that are interested in coming into the Finding Mastery business on the inside of it, one of the questions that is meaningful to me that I ask folks is, what is your tolerance for cold air on your skin? They go, cold wind on the skin like what is your tolerance for that nail oh yeah i kind of like it well yeah okay then then you can you can settle into entrepreneurship here with us you know so because there are moments where it's like holy we gotta lay what kind of bet so yeah okay i love i love the honesty here and then i honesty here. So this framing is important because I need to understand your science a little bit better. Because when I first came across, I'm good friends with a

colleague of mine. We've been in pro sport now together. We got our first pro gig together it was like 25 years ago and um and so it's kind of like we experienced professional sports over the last two and a half decades together and he he's got a great shop he comes from the physical training side and um he's got this tool in here that i was in there doing some work. And this was years ago. And he, I was, what kind of bike is this? Because he's got all,

he's got a couple of different bikes and he's very particular. So he, he works with LA Dodgers. He works with the LA Kings and fill in the blank, a couple others. And he's very particular about his technology. I said, what is this?

It was new. And it looks kind of like any other bike, but it's different. And he goes, oh, this is for nerds. And I go, what? And he kind of got this grin. It's by nerds, for nerds, right? And he's got this grin and he goes, get on. I go, so he said, get on. And I go, dude, I don't have time. He goes, get on sorry i go so he said get on and i go dude i don't i don't have time he goes get on and um holy moly is what you have different and so from that point i was like i gotta understand and so i did as much research as i could and then we reached out to you uh to better understand so just give some context yeah sure sure talk can you talk about re-hit

and can you talk about why you built carol the bike and i still don't know what carol stands for i don't know if that's your i can answer all three questions yeah yeah yeah get the context together so um the the first thing is almost similar to you we came came across, um, re-hit reduced exertion, high intensity interval training by coincidence. So there's an element of luck. So, um, our team worked in healthcare and we, we kind of designed and ran chronic disease management programs for people with various conditions, heart conditions, diabetes, and so on. And for those people, exercise is one of the most powerful interventions. And it's great. It doesn't cost a lot, no side effects, only catches. People don't do it. So that's the only issue. And when you ask people why they don't do it, they say they don't have time. Okay. And that's where chance basically basically helped us and this goes all the way back to 2012

so um there was a a show on the bbc on on live television in in the uk that showcased the science and the benefits of re-hit so So that was very short, very effective, and almost so easy that you don't even sweat. And that was a love on first sight moment and a lucky coincidence. And literally the very next day, I went to like an equipment store, fitness equipment store,

and bought myself an exercise bike that I thought was most suitable for that type of exercise for re-hit. But to my great disappointment, when I tried it at home, it was nothing like what they had claimed on television. So I found it very hard to do. I sweated bucket and I was really quite disappointed. However, one of my co-founders was was more persistent so we called up the scientists and and the first thing they told us is like well you need a special bike and you need to perform our specific workout it's like oh you didn't mention that um and and um so sure enough, so in the lab, they used special equipment, it's like some 15, $20,000. That's, that's actually operated by a second person

to perform these re-hit exercises. So that's very short, two 20 second sprints that are performed at exactly the right resistance. And you have this lab technician operate the bike for you. And if you have that, then yes, it actually works. And it's quite similar to what they've shown on television. And so there we were, we had, we had in some ways a problem that we worked with people with health conditions and couldn't get them to exercise. And we had brilliant academic research,

which others have developed. So we're building on very much ideas and concepts from others who've done great work in that field. But there was no practical solution. There was no consumer solution. There was no easy way for us to do it. And a prevailing mindset that to get fit, you need like, I don't know, two and a half, three hours per week of exercise, not 15 to 20 minutes per week. because this is this is an important for me is that one just a distinction re-hit versus hit most people in our community know hit high intensity interval training which is something like 20 seconds on 20 seconds off or 20 seconds high intensity 10 seconds off you know depending

on fitness levels and it can be maybe 30 seconds, 15, whatever, but there's some, there's an interval between intensity and recovery. And, um, you know, for me, a good solid hit training is like 20 minutes and I 30 is a bit too much for me, but sometimes I can get into that range. And then when I'm not feeling very motivated, it's like 15, but like, so somewhere in there and it's a complement to an overall strategy for fitness so most folks know hit are you suggesting that hit um is this a replacement for hit because i i'm you i'm doing both um but are you suggesting that and i'm not doing just hit or re-hitHIT or traditional training as well, but I'll get into my program in a minute, but are you suggesting that this is an upgrade to HIIT or it's a compliment? Tell me how you're thinking about it. It's a new and improved form of HIIT. And

so HIIT is actually quite an old concept, goes back to the 70s, and has very good evidence on its efficacy. So hit is very well established as a, like it works well, you get good benefits from it. However, it's also clear that hit, traditional hit, is actually quite hard for people to do. So HIT session would be, as you say, like 20 to 30 minutes. You would do kind of intervals of varying lengths, but you would do like 8, 10, 12 intervals.

And it's perceived, if you survey people, it's perceived as very hard. And so what scientists have done, and the scientists we work with, they set out to establish, first, how does it work? And what's the minimum you need to do for it to work? And both of those are actually very well understood. The mode of operation is that you very rapidly empty what's called muscular glycogen stores. And that would trigger the release of certain signaling molecules, certain molecules that trigger an adaptation. And so to achieve that as quickly as possible and with as little effort as possible, you know, it's a succession of,

I mean, it's almost like trial and error, but by now it's well understood what makes the difference. So the secret is, or kind of what makes it work, is that you sprint and you initiate that sprint very rapidly and perform that sprint literally at your maximum intensity. Your energy demand, the energy demand in your muscle, like absolutely spikes, increases about a hundredfold versus rest. And that sudden increase in energy demand is interpreted by your body, by your muscles, like an emergency situation, like a fight or flight situation. And what the muscle does,

because it can't mobilize quickly enough sugar or fuel from the bloodstream, it mobilizes sugar that's locally stored. And that's called glycogen. And because it anticipates this emergency situation and doesn't really know how long it would last, it mobilizes a lot more than you actually burn through in those two 20-second sprints. So you mobilize about 25 to 30 percent, you can measure that with ultrasound, of your muscular glycogen. But then because the, and that mobilization, that happens basically in the first two sprints, and actually in the first like 15, 10, 15 seconds of the first two sprints. And you don't burn all of it. So if you did many more sprints or longer sprints, you would burn through more of that glycogen, but it wouldn't make a difference because the adaptation is already caused by the depletion of those glycogen stores,

because now your body basically senses, oh, I've tapped into my emergency energy reserve. And that's, then I wouldn't be ready for the next critical situation also. And, and basically releases those molecules, AMPK and PGC1 alpha that, that instruct your body basically to get fitter and stronger. And what happens is you get, so those molecules regulate how many mitochondria and how big your mitochondria develop. And that improves your ability to burn oxygen. Those are the power plants in your cells. And then the other thing that we've, or scientists have learned, is your ability to deliver oxygen also gets better.

So like your stroke volume, stroke volume of your heart and your plasma levels. And all those changes literally happen with the rapid depletion of the glycogen stores. And to achieve that, all you need are two 20-second sprints. And that's exactly what V-HIT does and what our bike, Carol, is basically optimized through and through to make it as easy as possible to achieve that mode of operation. Okay. So this is the part that you are suggesting, the research is suggesting, that two cycles of 20-second bursts, you're actually building a buffer of five seconds on the backend that the adaptation has, has been met. The trigger exactly.

It's like a switch and like, like, like pressing the switch harder or more times or so doesn't, doesn't make a further difference for this particular pathway. So there are other pathways with other exercises that you would trigger, but this pathway, this adaptation pathway, you flip the switch with two maximum intensity, 20 seconds sprints. And then the rest is just like very, very gentle warmup, gentle recovery and gentle cool down. Right.

Which, which means you're on the bike between five and eight minutes. But, but it's really the thing that works and that kind of makes you fitter and healthier is those, just those two 20 seconds sprints. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines

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It's about choosing better. And when your day demands clarity and energy and presence, the way you prepare for it matters. If you're looking for high quality personal care products that elevate your routine without complicating it, I'd love for you to check them out. Head to calderalab.com slash finding mastery and use the code finding mastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash finding mastery. First of all, you're triggering a fight or flight mechanism, which is building capacity and you're building capacity with stress as well.

And so you're building physiological capacity, but also stress capacity, which is really important because most people are looking for stress reduction, ways to down-regulate. This is a strategy if somebody is feeling stressed in life or high-pressured or anxious or even depressed, like doing this type of work builds the capacity to handle more of the external demands. So there's something here from a psychological perspective that's also important, but then the activated protein kinase, you know, mechanism that you're talking about, the AMPK is also really important because when, when you, when you spike that, there's a couple things that are, are taking place. There's a, there's a, um, there's an impact on fat. There's also an impact on mTOR.

And so these are, these are buzzwords for people. Can, can you speak to, um, the not, well, let's maybe just speak to the cardiovascular benefits because if you're on a bike, you know, it's not like you're going to change your musculature you're not going to change necessarily the structure we don't actually know and in fact we're um so what what's very well established is the cardiorespiratory fitness benefits yeah hit that hit that first before we go to mtor before we go to some fat burn hit hit that because as a i'm 50 years old and i'm thinking differently about the way that i exercise than when i was 25 years old so yes efficiency matters to me right the cardiovascular piece is

really important oh absolutely and so but i want you to hit on two parts to this if you will one is is this safe for 70 year old, 65 year old folks? Because when I first did mine, when I first got on my bike, I was like, I wonder if my dad could do this. And I was, and then, and because it's flat out, I got to tell you a funny story in a minute. And because you're flat out for 20 and then rest and then flat out for 20, another 20 seconds.

And the only other comparable I have for anyone that is trying to get their head around, like how hard is this? It is flat out. It's like, let's call it a 45 degree sand hill, like a huge dune, if you will. And you're at the bottom looking up at this sand and then somebody's got a stopwatch for 20 seconds and they go sprint as fast and as hard as you can up this hill and at the last let's call it 10 seconds of that 20 it's like everything is on fire and and then there's a countdown that says nine and you're like more yeah eight so and it's like just grinding that last five seconds is like so so it i hope that paints a picture and it's not like you could i could just spin the dial the red dial on a traditional exercise bike and find this unique grooving that you've created okay hit on the cardio hit on the safety

and then let's get on into mtor and kind of the fat reserves in just a second. Yeah, yeah, sure. So first in terms of cardiorespiratory fitness, there are multiple and also studies conducted with kind of our specific bikes that have shown that you can improve your cardiorespiratory fitness in eight weeks by on average 12%. And so to put that into context, so cardiorespiratory fitness measured by VO2 max, that is one of, if not the most important like physiological marker and a 12% improvement of such a fundamental physiological marker is a big deal. It's not subtle at all. Think about it if you lost 12% of weight,

if you weigh 150 pounds or so and you lost 18 pounds of weight. That's a big deal. And that's what you can achieve within eight weeks. Not, not the 18 pounds. No, no, no, no. The 12%. For the 18 pounds of weight loss. You also have to stop all the donuts.

Yes. Yeah. No, no, no. This is about a 12% increase in VO two max, which is one of the great predictors of overall cardio respiratory fitness exactly exactly it's it's more than so in terms of vo2 max and cardio respiratory fitness as you age beyond the age of 30 you lose on average about 10 percent of vo2 max per decade so think about it um you could dial back your fitness levels by more than a decade in less than eight weeks. Now, I should say it's not a free lunch. Yeah, it's,

it's, it's, you know, it's very, very quick. It's, I think it's very easy to fit into any lifestyle really, or, you know, into any schedule. And therefore, it's easy to make a into any lifestyle really or you know into any schedule and therefore it's easy to make a habit of it i think you're right and that science that you just hit is significant this is why i was so attracted to it yes the application eight minutes okay if i can't find eight minutes and then when i introduce this to friends they're like like't find eight minutes. And then when I introduced this to friends, they're like, Mike, nothing's eight minutes. I'm like, wait, hold on. Like, go look at some of this research. And they're like, and they come back and they're like, is that real?

You know, like they're joking. Like, okay, it's, you know, but I wanted to, I want you to talk about the fidelity of the research, um, as well, but I have to gear up for this eight minutes i have to get my head right it's not like this casual okay i got eight minutes let me just go do an eight minute like jogger okay i have to anytime that there's a fight flight response it's serious it's i get it it's only two 20 second bursts but when that burst comes and the red light comes on like go it's maybe i'm overdoing it in my own mind but i have to bring everything i have to meet that demand and um do you think like like cold, cold showers, ice baths? I have to do the same thing.

I have to do this. Like I have to gear. It's like a 20 second cage fight, you know, with myself, you know, and same with cold showers. So if I'm going to do like a three minute cold shower or X number seconds, like ice plunge, I have to, I have to frame it. Yeah. So that I'm not when I'm, so I'll tell you why I want to do it. I have to I have to frame it yeah yeah so that I'm not when I'm so I'll tell you why I want to do it I want to build capacity I want to have a healthy carriage but when I'm in that cold shower or tub or I'm on the bike let's do the cold shower for a minute is that there's

there's a fundamental difference between being in that experience and trying to escape the experience versus being in that experience and using that to enhance my psychology yes i'm going to get the physiological effects but if i'm in the cold shower plunge and i'm like just get me the out of here just just get this over where okay i got two minutes left jesus okay what am i doing god bless it like and i'm in that frame now i'm i'm pairing psychological tension with physiological stress disaster that's a disaster i i find doing um re-hit on carol easier than um a cold shower um and i i I think there is a getting used to it

process. I use the bike and I do this. I don't do it seven times a week. I do it probably six times a week. You don't have to. I do it between four and five. Re-hit. That's just because for me, it's

actually easier. Obviously, I have a bike at home. me, it's actually easier. Obviously, I have a bike at home. I find it by now easier to just do it rather than to think about doing it. Amen. Okay. I think we're saying the same thing. Yeah. But that's me.

You don't have to gear up for it? I just get up and it's the first thing I do. Oh, you do it right. You do this prior to the first thing I do. Oh, you do it right. You do, you do this prior to, to your first feeding. Yeah. I do it in a, in a relatively fasted state. So, so I, yeah, I do usually most days do like some form of time restricted eating. You're doing that for more health benefits than, um, busyness. Health benefits. And I, benefits than um busyness health benefits and i i feel i'm also just a little bit more

focused and energetic and and um just perform at a higher level so i do find if i if i um start the day with croissants and and yeah no i i actually find that skipping breakfast is a good choice for, you know, having a productive day. The research is pretty interesting there as well. Does it prove me wrong or does it prove me right? For like a lifespan, healthspan, quote unquote longevity, like there's some really interesting research because you're giving your body a chance, um a longer phase of autophagy you know like clearing the mechanism if you will and so the longer we can extend that then maybe maybe the more efficient we are at clearing toxins out of the body and so um and then if in that fasted period to your point if you hit something from a cardio standpoint you're far more efficient with burning um at that state to oversimplify it yeah yeah yeah exactly and so for

me um it's it's literally just a routine habit something i do in the same way as i shave in the morning or brush my teeth or have a shower, even a cold shower. And so, so therefore, I've, I've gotten used to it, to a point where, where it's actually, it's, you know, there's no dread anymore. I don't have to get ready. I can, are you calling yourself more psychologically advanced than me? I would not dare to know. I don't think so. Yes, you are. Yeah. I love it. Okay. So, but you just tripped me up in a good way because you're like, listen, why aren't you doing this in the morning and then building this as part of your routine? And so it's okay. You just shifted me. This is where I'm going to start inserting this. So that's how it, that's how it works beautifully for me. And others use it at different times, I'm sure.

But I find it fits very well into just my morning routine. And that's, I think, because here's the thing. VO2max improves very quickly if you do this. Sadly, it also fades again if you don't do it. So the training effect is something that also, like you lose it again in a number of weeks. And that makes exercise actually quite similar to nutrition or diet. It's really no good having something that that you can stick to for a couple of weeks or a couple of months or so you you really need to have something that fits sustainably into your life and so so if you're if you're a busy person or if you i don't know you find it

hard to find two to three hours per week for cardio um you know no good having something like fancy flashy that that gives you like motivation for some time but you just can't fit it into your into your lifestyle into your life and let me speak to the usability as well let's say that you loved um one of the exercise communities like Peloton. Like you've got an integration. If you wanted to keep some of the Peloton stuff going, you've got an integration on your app that's on the screen on the bike.

So you can do that. It can do more. So you can do more on the bike than just two 20-second sprints. And there are actually, you know, sometimes I have surprising users come back and tell me that they use it for two hours. I'm like, what? But that's, so you can use it for a whole range of things. And it's actually because it's all networked.

We're adding to the functionality all the time in terms of kind of what you can do to the bike. So because we realize, like, most people don't have like two or three bikes at home, they have one bike at home. And then you have a whole family or a whole household that uses it. And some people like to do Peloton classes on it. Some people like to just, I don't know, watch YouTube. So why not let them watch YouTube on it? Things like that. Yeah, there you go okay cool what I also like about it is that there's a community and so um my friend and I like check our scores and you know compete a little bit in that way and exactly if there's real no competition he's got these he was a discus hockey player so his legs are like ridiculous tree trunks and so

his output he he leads on the output. When he gets, it's crazy, like the waters that he's able to express. But that's fine. I think I know who you're referring to. I didn't know where you were introduced to, Carol, but I think I know very well. Your friend lives in LA, right?

Yeah, Dr. Chad Moreau. Yes, yes, yes. Yeah, he's a legend. Yeah, right. You've seen him on the leaderboard plenty, haven't you? Oh, absolutely, absolutely. And so I'm usually doing reasonably well on our leaderboard, but he is really, you know, up there.

He's a little bit of a freak, I know. Yeah, exactly, exactly. Okay, so I can't out-compete him yet. No, no, yeah, he's in the position he's in in his field for a reason so okay because he walks the talk you know and okay so then go go back to the health bit yeah is that so 100 to 20 100 maxes at first pass could seem scary or dangerous for a 65 year old that is wanting to get back into shape or like is this only for people that are already at a certain level of fitness or could anybody jump on and have a benefit and then talk about that risk

benefit ratio? Yeah, sure. Sure. So first let's talk about who's actually using the bike. The majority of our customers are actually in the 40 to 60 bracket. So we, but while we have kind of really a broad range of users and we have, we have like, you know, some professional athletes and kind of younger people in their,

in their absolute prime, the bulk of our users are more in the 40 to 60 bracket and above. Our oldest was kind of late 70s up to 80. I'm kind of wondering, yeah, we have, but it becomes low figures. So the bulk is in the 40 to 60. And then, mind you, so my mom, for example, she's 78. And she's one of our, she's at the other end of the leaderboard. She looked for her. But she's one of our most consistent users. So she uses the bike every other day, very religiously, and tells me how good it is for her. Like she,

she has some mobility issues. Um, unfortunately she developed that a few years ago and can't do much other sport, um, but she can do the bike and, and she absolutely attributes, um, to Carol that she can maintain, you know, the circumstances, uh, given her circumstances, a good level of cardiorespiratory fitness with the bike. And she, she does the re-hit every other day. And it's great because, um, so, so she's one of our, our prime test users. Every time we have a new feature, I'll let her try it first. And because she's so regular, I can see whether everything's working or not. Um, that's okay. That's okay that's good so we have a broad range

and then in terms of um safety so studies have shown it's as safe as other types of sport there's um and in fact cycling on a stationary bike is very low impact and it's so it's for sure much much safer than a treadmill would be or like a a stepper or so. Um, so the, uh, we have no concern about the safety. If you have preexisting conditions, uh, you will need to check with your, with your physician. Yeah. That's, that's just what it is. Yeah. Yeah. Just what you're saying that as a disclaimer, just like any fitness a bit. Yeah. But like any fitness, I think it's, it's a good thing to follow it. So I don't, I don't mean to say,

to say just as a, as a cover my behind. Okay. Okay. But the thing is, so while it is very high intensity, the, the total amount of exertion is very, very low because it's so amount of exertion is very, very low because it's so short. And therefore for most people, it's actually better tolerated than kind of long sessions of cardio.

So it's a safe exercise. And then in terms of, you know, we're also taking you a little bit more slowly to it so you you start your when you register an account and you start using the bike you do first um like three call it ramp up rides um so you don't start straight away with the 20 seconds but you you start first with 10 seconds sprint so that you you know experience what it it feels like. And then you get to it kind of more slowly. And you can, you know, and the bike is highly personalized. So we have invested a lot in our algorithm to kind of get the settings for the workout,

you know, as personal and as relevant for you as possible and then um so so obviously we learn a lot about you when you sign up um and then based on your performance on the bike we also continuously kind of make it easier or or harder from ride to ride to really dial it into the exact level that's right for you and that's obviously radically different for my mom than it would be for your friend chad because it's it's just but it's the bike finds the right spot for that that is like that's the thing Like that's why a normal bike doesn't work. It's like, it is ideally, it is, it is hard in the most ideal way. Yeah. And, um, and that's why I appreciate it. It's like limits, but we're trying, we don't want to push you over your limits.

That's right. It, yeah. So there's, um, it's like a very sophisticated coach and saying, okay, crank it up, crank it down, like in just the right way. So, okay. um, it's like a very sophisticated coach and saying, okay, crank it up, crank it down, like in just the right way. So, okay. I love it. I do want to nerd out a little bit with, um, the AMPK model or signaling pathway. And so why don't we start, this is, I think it's important.

It's relationship to ATP, it's relationship to, uh, cell growth, um, it's relationship growth its relationship to triggering a fat response and mtor and i don't know if are you fluent and comfortable in you know the a mpk signaling pathway to talk about it or is this is there somebody else in your company that... I might have to call a friend. You need a lifeline. Yeah, exactly. So I broadly, I understand a little bit about it, but I'm a mechanical engineer. Right, that's what, out of fairness, I totally understand. We're a team and we also have kind of close collaboration

with the leading researchers in that field, but I can talk more about the, so we talked about the cardiorespiratory fitness angle. The other angle that's very well researched is the metabolic health angle. And so you talk about like the chronic response, which is fitness and the acute response which is metabolic health and there the results are actually yeah also really impressive and fascinating so studies have shown with our equipment and those are randomized controlled trials, independently run, peer-reviewed publications published on the back of it, that in eight weeks, you can reduce your risk of developing things like type 2 diabetes or metabolic diseases by 62%.

Now that's, again, that's very, that's very significant. That's the same level as you would expect from taking a drug like metformin. And again, you can achieve that by doing the exercise. So this five to eight minute workout three times a week in only eight weeks. And that's, yeah, it's very substantial and a great health benefit because, yeah, in our society, metabolic health is a big issue for a great number of people. And so we do think we have actually really something that could shift the dial. So we have to spread the word further. And, you know, we still have some growing to do. But our aspiration is really that we we want to shift the dial and help more people to lead just healthier healthier lives and and we believe we have something that that could actually make a difference for many people i'll add one more interesting variable i don't know if you know this

but one is okay hold on before i add the variable. I want to encourage folks that appreciate, you know, sinking into the science is to just look, go dig into AMTK and autophagy metabolism, mTOR pathways. look at that as a significant pathway for overall health like under understand that a little bit and um and i just want to be clear in this research that you just studied there's a difference when you fund the research and it's independently funded by somebody else you know and it's not your cousin that you have a backdoor handshake with. So can you, can you talk about that just one more, one more time? Sure. Sure. Absolutely. So that, um, so first there was plenty of research that was done before us. So we're, we're really, we're building on, um, how do you say standing on the shoulders of giants?

But there are kind of a number of researchers. That's Professor Ghebala, Martin Ghebala, that might be known to some people. Professor Dalek, Dr. Niels Wallert, Dr. Richard Metcalf, who've published a lot of, you know, really insightful papers on re-hit, on spring training and so on. And then we were inspired to, to build a product around that. And then we're obviously citing their research based on those other lab equipment that we, that we, that they used previously. In fact, like now all of the ones that I've just listed are doing also research with Carol Bikes. We're actually quite pleased with that.

And we have actually very good and close relationships with them because they would like, they have also drive to move the needle and get people to lead a healthier life. And so for them, even so they're not paid advisors or anything, they like us to succeed. But so when we started, we quoted their research done with other equipment to say, like, we believe these are the health benefits that you can achieve.

And then the American Council on Exercise, that's like a nonprofit organization whose remit it is to evaluate new forms of research, new modalities of exercise for efficacy. They heard about us and said, like, OK, we want to test that, but we want to test this independently and they actually purchased a couple of bikes and then commissioned um western university at colorado um professor lance dalek to do a randomized control trial with um half of the group so it was 32 participants in total and obviously they've checked that that's enough to get statistically significant results. Half of them did three times a week re-hit on Carol. And the other half of the group, the control group, did five times a week, half an hour, traditional moderate intensity continuous training. So that's jogging. And now, and both groups were previously sedentary lifestyles. And I should say both groups had

an improvement. So the moderate intensity group, they had an increase in BO2 max of around 6%. Our group had 12%. And in terms of this metabolic health, there's a score called METS Z score. The control group had a risk reduction of 27%. We had a risk reduction of 27%. We had a risk reduction of 62%. So that means our group had like double the benefits in a fraction of the time. So I don't want to poo-poo other exercise. If you have a sedentary lifestyle and you don't do exercise for sure, exercise is good for you. And that's any exercise is good for you. But if you have little time and

want optimal results, then re-hit with, with Carol is a very, very good choice for you. And that delivers, you know, double the health and fitness benefits in a fraction of the time. And, you know, I'd be clear, one of the researches that, and you've mentioned, you know, reduce the risk of type two diabetes by 62%, blood pressure reduced by 5%, triglycerides, which is, you know, important, reduced by 10%, good cholesterol, HDL increased by 6%, blood sugar level reduced by 2%. These are significant. And just like you would expect, if you take two groups and give them something, there's going to be an increase likely for both. So that would be, the hypothesis is sound there. But for you to have that delta between the two is really interesting, especially for folks that

want to be efficient with time, even more so it's like less time bigger bang for the buck overall health functioning and i i want to this is i want to introduce this part of the story i think it was um i think it's interesting is that the athletes that are using the athletes from uh dr moreau um that are using it are professional athletes you know that come to his shop and they're saying they do vo2 max testing at the beginning of a year um and sometimes you know at the end just to kind of get a sense of um that for a professional athlete and they're saying that your number is as good as the traditional VO2 max. Do you know that? Have you heard that anecdotally? Yes. And I mean, we've like our fitness score,

we call it octane score, our fitness score. No, I'm not surprised at all to hear that because we've reversed engineered to mimic or to track VO2 max. Now I should say it's nothing like it's, it's really very different in a way. Our fitness score measures basically power output or energy output per heartbeat in an anaerobic exercise, and then in the recovery after an anaerobic exercise. VO2max measures kind of how much oxygen you can metabolize, burn in an aerobic exercise. So they're even conceptually quite different. But because we've very carefully designed our metric, it tracks VO2 max well. So if you get a 10% improvement in our fitness score, on average, that's not necessarily

for each individual, but on average, it tracks the improvement in VO2 max. So for a cohort, it should track it very well because we've specifically designed it that way. It's awesome. So this is the funny story that I wanted to share with you is that I had one of my mentor was visiting. And this is, he's more of a spiritual, emotionally wise man, not involved in fitness and that side at all at all right comes from a very different kind of world if you will and uh he he's visiting he lives on the east coast so he was out for a little bit and i wanted to show him i want to show him this thing and he goes okay so he comes out and you

know i got the i jump on the bike and um he was not expecting it and you know there's a little countdown that that the bike gives before you go into the 20 seconds. Three, two, one. And then so I go, okay, hold on. Here I go. And I start cranking. And then about 10 seconds in, like I'm cranking as hard as I can. And about 10 seconds in, he starts to get fidgety.

You know, he's like, oh, my God. He had to almost like walk away like because of the effort, the effort the you know exertion that i'm i'm expressing is unfamiliar to him it's he's looking he's like oh my god and i go i go come on jump on this thing and so you know like it was just funny to see somebody that's not uh familiar with without yeah exactly exactly that's why that's why we um like when we're sometimes we're at conferences and there we there's always a real big dilemma do we want people to experience the full thing or do we just want to um you know let them do like 10 second sprints first and then the next one they can do a 10 20 second sprint so they actually know what they're letting themselves

in for i think i think you're right to do a 10%, you know, a 10 second. That's how I started on your bike. And I was appreciative that you gave me that option. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Listen, Ulrich, I love this. I've got some very, very applied questions, which is if somebody is interested in getting your bike, like where's the right place to send them um i know we've got we've got um you've been generous in in the way that you have um supported uh our community to have a discount and so i it i will i'll push them to that place you know or guide them to that place to to receive that discount the other though is like where where do you want them to be part of your community is there a social place is there a newsletter what

part of that would you are you most interested in that's part one i've got a second question here yeah so first um so we're not in in uh tons of showrooms we're not we're not in tons of showrooms. We're not quite the Peloton levels where you have three Starbucks in every town. But what we do offer, so you can purchase the bike on our website. That's carolbike.com. And if you have the Finding Mastery, so I think we have a code Finding Mastery. That's correct. This is actually, you know, we have a code finding mastery that's correct we this is actually a um you know we run a promotion um that gives free lifetime membership usually it's 12 dollars per

month it's modest but we've waived that um and we offer a uh because we don't have a ton of showrooms we we just have a quite generous home trial so we offer 100 day home trial um you can experience it 100 days is definitely enough time to see a difference um if you like it you keep it if you don't like it we also take it back so you have to purchase the bike, but it's basically a risk-free way of no questions asked right of return. So that's the easiest way to try it. And then if you want, we also offer, if you have specific questions, so we offer like a, we call it fitness advisory service. So you can make an appointment with a member of our team

who is an exercise physiologist and who can answer any specific questions you have. And if you want to try it before you purchase it, we can direct you to some, you know, like the studio of your, I'm actually not sure whether Dr. Morrow is possible, but there's a number of, we're not in traditional gyms, but we're like in more boutique, high-end, you know, training facilities.

And so it is possible to have a look there, and we can provide contact details. And it's also on our website where one could see a bike in action, or you can just get one and try it. I think what's going to happen, or I think what's happening probably for people in our community is they're like their ears are perked because they're hearing eight minutes. They've as an efficiency metric.

And then they are thinking about all the radical benefits of bond above and beyond some of the other traditional exercises that are being measured their ears are tuned and they're saying oh gosh i want to support i want to get one and and i now want to spread the word because of kind of who you are and the groundedness of science that you come from. And so I would love at some point to do something exciting with you as well. As an entrepreneur to an entrepreneur, I want to support you moving forward in your business in meaningful ways. And so folks that are interested, if you're interested, go check out what he's got going on and use the code. You're going to get a discount. It's going to be meaningful. And then spreading the word, I would love to activate some sort of campaign where we do something where they have the chance of winning a bike for free, but there's something else that we

do to create a community and a swell around that. And we'll figure that out maybe at some other time. But I just want to say, I really appreciate what you've built. I'm grateful for it, for my health. And I love the science that you're standing on. And I love the intrigue about where you're going to take this in the future. And so can we pause there for a moment and just, what are you excited about next? Like what, what is coming next, whether it's with Carol or it is with, you know, health and exercise in general that you're excited about? So we have a few things going on that I'm very excited about. So one is, so we talked about cardiorespiratory metabolic

health and you said like, oh, it's not going to help you for strength. I'm actually not sure whether it doesn't. I hope it does actually. So we have a study. I've not seen the results. This is ongoing, but looking at the strength benefit of re-hit. Yeah, cool. And possibly we can find a way of, you know, you wouldn't get all the benefits of strength training, but get some essential benefits from strength training as well. So we'd like to, that's something we're researching

and we're looking into. The, the other thing is, so at the moment we're, we're basically optimizing, you know, the resistance of the workout to enable optimal performance and that i actually i can't say too much because we're about to draft some patterns on that but there are other parameters um of the workout um that one can play with to to not only basically get optimal performance and optimal results but the other like huge huge component is obviously um how you feel afterwards and then um leading to adherence so we are also um and and there will be original research involved but ideally i would like to take this further from basically taking one parameter, like optimizing resistance for, for peak performance to optimizing everything we can like playing around with more parameters

to get the optimal, like emotional response and, and therefore optimal adherence. I bet, I bet I have an idea just being a pro sport some of the things that we've measured I love where you're where you're going I think I think you're right I I'm excited do please don't talk about it now I totally get it and maybe we will we will talk about it when we have it like of course that's exciting but it's I'll have you back on you know and so we can whatever those findings are um to be able to share those, I would like to do that with you. So, thank you. You know, like I just want to honor our time too and say this is a product that I've been interested in. And I also want to just say very clearly, so folks know that I am not compensated. Finding Mastery is not compensated by units sold. There's no financial

relationship other than you have been a sponsor of the program as a way to move product for you. This is not, you know, and to build your community. So it's benevolent in that respect. So I just want to say thank you. I love what you're doing i want to support your community to be built and um it's it's been meaningful for me now i don't say that lightly um and here's a fun little bit of evidence is that um i was reading an ad for you on the podcast and they're supposed to be 60 seconds to 90 seconds somewhere in there you know like hey this is you know the carol bike this is what And, uh, my producer sent back a note, like not very happy saying, why is your ad seven minutes for Carol? Like, like it's crazy.

I just can't, I just needed to tell stories about like how great it is. So, um, we have, I have to do better. And so, um, so anyways so anyways, enough said by me. Thank you. Wishing you and your team the absolute best. And I'm stoked for you. Yeah. Thank you.

Thank you very much for having us on as guests. And thank you for helping spread the word because it's not easy to cut through. And one challenge is to to build something cool there's a whole different challenge uh to to spread the word and and to get people to at least give it a try yeah yeah awesome so thank you very much for that you got it okay all the best to you take care thank you all right Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you.

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