Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Google Pioneer Chade-Meng Tan on Joy at Scale & Global Peace

Episode Date: April 5, 2017

Chade-Meng Tan (Meng) is a Google pioneer, award-winning engineer, international bestselling author, thought leader and philanthropist. He retired from Google as its Jolly Good Fellow at the age of 45. He is Chairman of the Search Inside Yourself Leadership Institute and Co-chair of One Billion Acts of Peace, which has been nominated eight times for the Nobel Peace Prize. He is also Adjunct Professor at the prestigious Lee Kuan Yew School of Public Policy in the National University of Singapore. At Google, Meng led the creation of a groundbreaking mindfulness-based emotional intelligence course called Search Inside Yourself, which was featured on the front page of the Sunday Business section of the New York Times. Search Inside Yourself is also the title of Meng’s New York Times bestselling book which has been endorsed by world leaders such as President Carter of the United States, business leaders such as Eric Schmidt of Google and John Mackey of Whole Foods Markets, and spiritual leaders such as the Dalai Lama. Meng hopes Search Inside Yourself will eventually contribute to world peace in a meaningful way. Meng delivered a TED talk on compassion at the United Nations and spoke at the White House about the development of kindness. His personal motto is, “Life is too important to be taken seriously”. Meng hopes to see every workplace in the world become a drinking fountain for happiness and enlightenment._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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that will be in my lifetime. That thought was the sudden realization that I was happy. I mean, I was miserable, right? When it was EM. And then I learned meditation and then I was happy. I mean, I was miserable when it was yam. And then I learned meditation, and then I became happy. And then so I was taking a walk, and then suddenly

I realized that in the past, my baseline happiness was misery. Nothing happens, I was miserable. And then in a few short years, my baseline happiness is joyliness. And it's like, if I, like this flawed, stupid, worthless human being, if I can do this,

anybody can do this. I mean, I definitely think anybody can do this. And if everybody does this, this creates a condition for world peace. All right, welcome back, or welcome to the Finding Mastery podcast. I'm Michael Gervais. And the idea behind these conversations is to learn from people who are on the path of mastery so that we can better understand how they've made sense of their craft and how they've made sense of the world and themselves in it. And we want to be able to pull back layers to better understand how they've conditioned and trained their mind

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science officer. So I know they've done their due diligence in that category. My favorite flavor right now is the chocolate chip cookie dough. And a few of our teammates here at Finding Mastery have been loving the fudge brownie and peanut butter. I know, Stuart, you're still listening here. So getting enough protein matters. And that can't be understated, not just for strength, but for energy and focus, recovery, for longevity. And I love that David is making that easier. So if you're trying to hit your daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash finding mastery. This conversation is with Meng and Meng is a Google pioneer. He was hired

early on in Google and he's an award-winning engineer. He's bright, he's smart. It's unbelievable to talk to him. He's written two books, international best-selling author, and he's a thought leader and philanthropist. He retired from Google early on and on his business card when he retired was Jolly Goodfellow. He is chairman of Search Inside Yourself Leadership Institute, also known as SILLY. It's just a beautiful title for him. And he's the co-chair of One Billion Acts of Peace, which has been nominated eight times for the Nobel Peace Prize. Phenomenal. His first book is titled Search Inside Yourself. And his new book, Joy on Demand, The Art of

Discovering the Happiness Within, they're both fantastic. They're simple and they're profound books. And Joy on Demand brilliantly captures his humor and his insights. And it's one of those books that I just didn't want to put down once I cracked it open. Meng as a person is alive with humor and humility. He thinks quickly and clearly, and he wants to change the world. We have so much to learn from Meng, and I'm honored to be able to have a conversation with him. I'm honored to be able to learn from him and just be around him. He's a phenomenal human being. And this conversation, if you're driving, you might make note that you might want to listen to this again. It's that good. So let's jump right into this conversation

with Meng. Meng. Hello, my friend. How are you? Same old, same old. Everything changes every day. So before the microphones came on, we've been laughing. That's right. This is just kind of how you go through life, isn't it? Yes, unfortunately. For you, at least. So I'm not sure what to expect out of this conversation, but I bet we're going to laugh.

Okay. And I would imagine that we're going to talk some serious stuff. We're going to have both in this conversation. Sounds good. This is a free podcast, right? Your listeners are not paying, right? correct okay good then in that case there'll be laughter all your money back oh my god all right so all right all right let's do this so here we are we're uh you're gracious enough to open up your home we're in your meditation room and let's let's begin by giving like i'd like to learn early life, what that was like for you.

And so just to give some context of how you've become so influential in the world of mindfulness and especially in Western culture as well. So what was early life like? Early life. So when I was a kid, I used to be very smart. So my IQ was measured at 156. According to my mom, I learned to read when smart. So my IQ was measured at 156. According to my mom, I learned to read when I was 18 months old.

Okay. And what I do, so that part I did not remember. My mom told me. What I do remember is teaching myself to program a computer at 12, which back in 1982

was a huge deal. 19 what? 82 1982 you were programming computers yes I taught myself to do that on

was it DOS at that point? yes it was Apple too oh Apple so you were on Apple okay yeah and I taught myself

assembly language if you know what I mean so that's in other words programming at the machine level which is pretty cool even for adults

it was pretty cool and I was 12 years old and it was 1982. So were you like this smart, nerdy kid running around or were you like focused on stuff and people were attracted and you were really cool?

Like what was that kind of image of you? Image of me, the classic geek. Classic geek, okay. Without a skinny gig with no social life. That's roughly me. Yeah.

Were adults interested in what you were doing? Not really. Not really. I was in my room most of the time. But I did win my first competition at the age of 15. So I participated in a programming competition what was school like school uh i didn't like school yeah i can't remember why i didn't like school let me think oh school like yeah okay i just said school is hard school was hard

yeah i can say that i can follow mike school was hard was it the social aspect or was it the it was it wasn't the academic stuff uh in retrospect i i think what happened was this so so part of it was i was consumed by my passion which back then was programming a computer okay like i said i i entered my first competition at 15 and won. I won third prize. And then I was national champion by 17. So that was part of it. The other part of it was... Where did you grow up?

Singapore. Singapore. Yeah. So the other part of it was there was a lot of volume. There were a lot of subjects. And there's a lot of pressure to do well because we're all Chinese. Yeah. So therefore, it was tough.

And then what were your parents like? Did they push? were they easygoing what was that like for you my dad is a pretty amazing person so he started his career at the age of 10 as as a child hawker so you know as a child what hawker what is that so you know uh there's you know when you go to third world countries at least you see them on on discovery Channel or something. The kids on the street side selling stuff. No way. Oh, hawking.

Hawking. Yeah, okay. So he was doing that? Yeah, he was doing that. In foreign countries or in Singapore? Yeah, in Singapore. Yeah, so I mean, he read the boy on TV, and for me, that was real life.

That was my dad, right? Selling stuff on the streets of Singapore at the age of 10. And then he needed to do that or wanted to do that? He needed to do that. He needed to survive. We were a poor country. So on and so forth. To put it in context, the year I was born

in 1970, Singapore had to be independent, just independent for a few years. Unemployment was something like 20%. There was no natural resources. And the largest employer in the country was pulling out, which was the British Navy. So that was like,

you can imagine, you think of the worst situation you can find yourself in, we were dead. And so my father grew up in a situation probably worse than that. 10 years old, he started working. And then when he was old enough, I think like 17 or something, he joined the army to get out of poverty.

And then he became one of the most senior military leaders in all of Singapore. He was one of those unsung heroes that built the country. And then he retired. And after his retirement from the army, he became a successful businessman, self-made multimillionaire. Multimillionaire. Yeah, it's amazing, right?

I mean, from a kid who has to survive on the street to top military officer to self-made millionaire. So when you think about your dad, is he still alive? Oh, yeah. Yeah, is he in Singapore? That's right. And then what does he do now?

Or what did he do? Did he stay in entrepreneurship? Yeah. And so he's like me now. We're both retired. You got there before your dad, didn't you? About the same time. All right.

All right. So then when you think of your dad's strengths and what allowed him to excel, what are some of those characteristics and what are some of the habits and the things that you picked up from your dad? Discipline, hard work, emphasis on education, and emphasis on constant growth. So I mean, those are like very Chinese things things but my father kind of took them to kind of an extreme so for example i never see him because he's always working but even at the height of his career in the army he was doing his mba okay yeah in night school so even though he didn't have to he was like it was a top military officer and so on and so forth. And he was still trying to grow. What was that like for you, seeing your dad be ambitious and hungry for learning and discipline and not having him around? I think about this a lot.

Yeah. So on one hand, I was proud of him. On the other hand, I never see him. And I think it hurt him more than it hurt me. Because I have a kid, so I know what it's like to not see your kid. Yeah. Yeah.

And I'm glad I spent a lot of time with mine. Yeah. So you, there was sadness and a sense of pride, it sounds like. Not so much sadness

but more of a regret like that we didn't have time. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. And you have, but you had the awareness in some way that this was hard on my dad, or you just figured that out after, like now that you have a child? After.

After. Okay. So when you were growing up, what was that primary experience like for you, seeing your dad be ambitious but not having him in your life? I don't know. but not having them in your life? I don't know. So I had an ambition to be successful when I was very young, but I don't know where that comes from.

It could be a Chinese thing, so a cultural thing. It could be my dad. It could be me. And I couldn't figure out which is a primary factor. Okay. But it was obvious

that from a young age. And was that like 12 on or 15 on you mentioned those two years or uh so uh in my when i was younger i've always been driven to be very successful i don't know exactly what age but there's a very funny data point which is this my mom told me i i have no memory of that wait i actually do have a memory of that so my mom said the very first time she asked me when I was very young, she asked me what I want to be when I grow up. I said emperor.

So it's because you can't get higher than emperor. Oh, my God. Okay, so you started there. That's your ambition. How'd you do? So far, I haven't reached emperor yet so i i do i do declare myself um emperor ming of mingistan all right so oftentimes when we think of success there's so many different ways to define it and my hope is that as i grow my definition or my the way that i capture success

grows as well and that is a big part of this that I capture success grows as well. And that is a big part of this journey that I'm on to. I feel like this is a postgraduate course that I'm on to learn from, you know, people on the path of mastery and bright minds that are dedicated to understand what I think is like the nuances of a craft. And so how, at a young age, did you see success in the same version that you see it now? Or has there been a change? Yes, there's been a change. That's actually a deep question.

So there's a little bit of psychologizing in here. But when I was young, I just realized this. Part of the hunger for success arises from, I think, pain. And you recognize that. So there is a part that I'm not worthy, I'm not good enough, and so on and so forth. So I suck. I have no value. Therefore, in order to prove my value, I have to be successful.

That's right. So when I was young, that was how I think a lot of it is a lot of my drive for success comes from there. And so as you know, I was successful starting from a young age. Like I said, I won my first award at 15 and so on. And then later on, I was a successful engineer. I was financially independent at the age of 33 right so and so what what does independent mean that means i never had to work again for a single day for the rest of my life okay starting the starting the time i was 33 wow that is really cool right so that that's the independence that financial independence that you were able to figure out yes uh and so the

biggest lesson uh through through this journey is that success does not bring happiness which i think you figured out i think every all was figured out yeah yeah uh however i i discovered that the reverse is true and i wrote about it in my latest book which is a lived experience which is that success doesn't lead to happiness however happiness can lead to success. Cool. And there's a lot of data, there's a lot of scientific research that shows that.

But for me, I kind of lived it. Because after I learned to be happy, I find that I was a lot more successful because there was nothing holding me back. And I didn't need the success to fill my inadequacy anymore. Instead, I was already happy and the success was in addition. Okay.

And not just in addition. It was service. It's something I did for the world. I mean, I did stuff for the world and then somehow that led me to become successful. Okay. And literally, there's so much in here i want to i want to pull on and and one of those is that you had to learn happiness so this is begging the question about um the innate human experience yes and so is your

is your there's like three views that i've come to understand, right? And there might be more that you can teach me on, but one is people are born happy or I'm sorry, inherently good. People are tabula rasa blank slate. And then the third is people are kind of evil little, you know, like whatever, right? Okay. So what's the three? The first is born good, evil, or tabula rasa. And do you have a point of view on that? If you had to learn happiness.

Yes. So it's actually a lot more nuanced than people put it. There was a study I found fascinating. And it takes a bit of time to describe, but I'll describe it. Please. Oh, by the way, just for context.

And I hope I'm not interrupting this thought for you, but are, when you speak, are you speaking more as a scientist or as a, uh, some, a pursuer of information? Like not, not that they're mutually separate, but when I, when we speak, are you coming from like, I've lived this or I've read this? Uh, both, I guess. speak are you coming from like i've lived this or i've read this uh both i guess yeah okay so do you have a value a deep value of science or a moderately interesting value of deep i i like to think that i'm following the the tradition uh said by the buddha because uh he's basically both right i mean he is the enlightened one fully enlightened and the way he speaks, there's so much precision in the way he's speaking. These are the four noble truths,

there are the eight full powers, there are seven factors of enlightenment, blah, blah, blah. It's so precise. And it's scientific. Everything he talks about, sometimes he backs with evidence or he backs with a metaphor.

So I'm trying to follow that tradition. So you're using both in the way that you are working to describe what you've come to understand, both science. Correct. Okay. And metaphor. Correct. And also in a way, I think of myself as a storyteller. And the science, when I talk about the science, I think of myself as telling a story. There you go.

Yeah. Okay. And then have you been involved in original research? Or do you borrow from Bright Mind minds the research that they've done? Mostly borrow, because original research takes time and takes effort, and I'm trying very hard to be lazy. Okay, more on that to come.

Okay, I interrupted the science that you're going to share. Okay. So there was a study done on toddlers, very young kids. So let me see if I remember correctly. So the story is there's a door. There are two

doors that you play with. And one door is trying to open a box. And then there are two other doors. Door number one of the doors is trying to help this person open the box. The other door is trying to hinder.

So two doors opening a door yeah it's just three doors three dolls so one door trying to open a door to a box when you open the box okay and then one try to help and one try to hinder okay got it okay so the question which one does a toddler like a monitor to the the one helper and a hinder who does the doctor like universally the toddler likes the helper. That's right. So that argues that there's goodness inborn. However, the second part of the experiment was fascinating. So the second part of the experiment is you give the kid a choice of two things. Let's say raisins or sweets or something. So two items.

So the kid chooses one. And then you tell the kid, okay, this door likes the other thing. So whatever the kid wants, the door chose the other thing. So not what she chose. Okay, so if I like the raisins. Yeah, then this door will like sweets.

Okay. So that's a setting. And then given a setting, same experiment. So this door that likes something that you don't like i'm trying to open the box and now the question is does the kid prefer the helper or the hinderer okay so then then this is begging the question that will i like someone that is different than me well i like someone that doesn't like the things that i like correct

and universally the kid likes a hinder okay so when we don't identify at a core value yes raisins right or sweets

yes that we prefer the person that is not we will not help oh worse than that hinder not even help so that is the seed of evil

right just because this dog doesn't like what I like I want to see this dog get hurt. That's evil, right? So toddlers already, they have seeds of goodness and evil in them.

And when you say toddlers, do you remember the age? Yeah, like two years old or something. One or two years old. Very, very young. Young enough that, I mean, they know how to point to stuff. So they're old enough,

they can point to stuff. And they know, I like this, I like that. But young enough that they mean they they know the point to stuff so they're old enough they can point to stuff yeah okay and they know i like this i like that but young enough that they haven't been like have had culture uh phenomenal okay but dilution or something pollution when you yeah so when you when you think about this research you're you're what you're extracting is that people are basically good and evil we have both sides to us yes Selfishness. Yes, and yes. So again, it gets a little bit more nuanced. Okay.

So there is another level of nuance. This was the experiment done on adults. And this was the famous Stanford Prison Experiment. That's right. You heard about. Oh, yeah. So for those of you listeners

who don't know, they've got a bunch of Stanford students who volunteer for an experiment. And at random, they split them between the prison guards and prisoners. And so at random, so the prisoners were put in a prison and prison guards were guarding them. And what they didn't know was that they were being monitored 24-7. And what they found is just within three days in the experiment,

the prison guards started abusing the prisoners. They took the role of power on them. These are all random Stanford students. That's right. And so this is powerful, but there's an important nuance that didn't get described a lot, which is that among the prison guards, about one-third of them became abusers, about one-third tried to remain fairers, about one-third tried to remain fair,

and about one-third were kind. So, one way to interpret that is that one-third of us are inherently evil. But the situation just doesn't arise for the evil to come out. So, those

are the two nuances. And the way I see it is this, is that goodness is inherent in all of us. However, it's obstructed. It's obstructed by three mental factors, greed, hatred, ignorance. And all of us have different levels of greed, hatred, ignorance.

And therefore, we fall into a spectrum of quote-unquote inherent good or evil. What that means is this. It's that therefore, we don't have to construct goodness because goodness is already there. All we have to do is deconstruct the causes

or what obstructs the goodness. Therefore, if we can deconstruct great hatred, ignorance, then the evil goes away and the person is good. And when I say deconstruct, I mean both sense of the word. So one sense of the word deconstruct

means take it apart to understand it. The other sense of the word is destroy it. And I'm taking both meaning. Okay. So therefore, the real answer to your question, in my opinion, is that

there's all these nuances, but at the end of the day, it doesn't matter. Because what really matters is that there is training. There are ways to train goodness. And the training

simply involves removing or weakening greed, hatred, ignorance. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentous. When it comes

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naturally good. We've got goodness inherently within us. And then if we can remove the barriers or remove the traps, so to speak, of greed, ignorance, and hatred, then we'll be on our way. Okay. And then tie that back to the first thought is that we'll be on our way in the way that you've experienced is that you had success first and didn't understand happiness. Then you had to work like almost ass backwards, get the happiness in place. And then you found new levels or new expansions of success correct okay so you had financial success correct but what you were missing something uh which is well i don't know like so if you found happiness after success so so what happened was that so i

had early success when and when i was young especially as a teenager okay not not financial yeah but more like recognition yes recognition yeah yeah uh i mean huge recognition i was in the news and so on oh you were okay for your programming programming yeah and then why did you get tested your iq did mom and dad do that because it's fun you did that on your own yeah as a child or i think i was a teenager and and then they were like recruiting for mensa or something. I said, that sounds like fun. I'll try it out.

And then no problems? No problem. 156, like 1% or something, or 0.1%. So what has it been like for you to have an IQ that borders, you know, it's like the top 2%, right? Yeah. Is it 2 or 3? Actually, it's top 0.1% or something. Oh, it is

yeah 132 is top two percent are you familiar with the triple nine society uh no the 0.01 percent okay that's a whole different kind of like i think it gets really weird okay in that group they didn't let me in okay my my guess is that half the members in there are spectacularly unsuccessful that's my guess like i have zero idea on how to relate to other people. Yeah, yeah. Okay, so what has it been like for you to have an IQ of 156? In the early days, it was kind of, I wouldn't say it's a curse, but it was kind of a burden, right?

Because having a high IQ means a few things. One is you don't fit in by definition and also in reality because you don't think like anybody else you don't think like everybody else you're not interested in things that they're interested in

also one of the things I did was because I think high IQ I spent a lot of time in my room so I didn't develop my body. So I, yeah, I was weak.

I, I, I got sick often and, and I couldn't run fast and I couldn't leave heavy objects. So on and so forth. I mean, those things had to fix as an adult. I had to go to the gym and,

and be the person I am today. So, uh, did you just say that you're fast and strong and sexy? I will, uh, I'm less i'm less messed up than i used to be i mean we're recorders so i can't use the words i i have in my mind so i just say messed up less messed up i used to be so uh yeah uh more liability than anything i mean it did help me become get good grades and become quote-unquote successful. But as an adult,

once I figured out the other things, once I figured out how to be happy, how to be kind to people, and so on, those things are in place. The high IQ is a huge asset. And the way it's a huge asset

is that I find that one of my biggest strengths, and for me, it's a gift. It was a gift I was given. It's the ability to explain esoteric subjects in a way that people can understand. And the way I put it is like, that's right in a way that even I can understand.

There you go. Yeah. And I found that to be tremendously helpful to a lot of people. Yeah, you do have a way, and we'll get to this talent of yours in just a bit like you have a way of making the complicated rather simple right and so that that is the path of wisdom right like can we you know that at least that's what i think it is so okay there's one other characteristic that i that i want to talk about with high iq

is frustration yes so if your mind and brain are processing at 10x speed and the rest of the world is processing at 4x speed right then it's easy to get frustrated yes and so did you notice that as well for yourself like god bless it why are they not getting it it's pretty simple look here's the path this is how you finish it this is how you do it yeah just get it done like did you notice that for yourself uh yes that that and seeing things before everybody else see it and and the price of the price of that is everybody thinks you're an idiot or you're crazy yeah of course unless you are very successful then you are visionary it's the same person it's the same like i mean yeah i mean i've always had that in my life like seeing things that people don't see before and people judge me differently based on whether i was already successful or not yeah that's fascinating there's a funny little phase

in my life when uh early on i had to people would ask like well what have what have you done and where are your degrees from and like what you know are you any good and then there's something that happens where it's like okay well that, there's some sort of given about that. And that's the same type of thing for you is that you've experienced and achieved and done much for the world so that people stop asking you. Asking me what? About how have you come to understand what you've come to understand? What gives you a right to say these wild things oh people never question me they just assume i'm an idiot that's all they assume you're an idiot

okay yeah brilliant okay and then so let's go back to the three um i don't want to say barriers or traps i don't know the words you used of hindrances hindrances of both joy and goodness i say especially of goodness joy and goodness. I say specifically of goodness. Joy and goodness. So you separate those two. Yeah, they're different things. Yeah. So goodness is an action?

Goodness, I think, is inherent. Okay. And there are barriers to goodness. And then joy is a sense of peace. Joy is different. Joy is, to me, joy is an emotion. So again, I'm very precise about the way I define words. So happiness, for example, is defined as a deep sense of flourishing that

arises from an exceptionally healthy mind. Not a mood, not a feeling, not an emotion, but an optimal state of being. So that's how I define happiness. In contrast, joy is defined as an emotion, as a fleeting feeling, as a moment of pleasant feeling in the body and a pleasant state of mind. So joy is fleeting and happiness is enduring. No. So the time scales are different.

So because we define happiness or I define happiness as optimal state of being. So for example, what that means... Did you say optimistic being or optimistic of being? Optimal state of being, sorry. Optimal state? Yes. Oh, optimal state, like an ideal or optimal state of being.

Okay, gotcha. So for example, the time scales are, for example, I say I have a happy day or I have a happy life. It's usually taken over a long timescale. But joy is like I'm joyful here and now. So that is the difference. So the other difference is that joy is, so to be happy doesn't mean that every moment is joyful. However, joy is a building block of happiness.

So there is no such thing as joyless happiness. There's no such thing as I didn't feel joy the entire day and today is a happy day. So there are like some moments are joyful, some moments are not, but in aggregate, today is a happy day. How does a sense of inner peace interact with... Yeah, let me come to that.

Let me finish off this thought. So it turns out one of the most important findings that I found out in life and I later found that in the old scriptures is that access to joy is a skill. And all skills is trainable. And so once you train access to joy then once you have joy then you can build happiness okay so so your question is how does inner peace come into this

well before we get there yeah is um anything that can be trainable i'm really interested in because you know for so long the idea of training the mind had people kind of nod their head like, yeah, but then it's like, how? And it is invisible, but there are practices that can be taught and that we can get better at. And so how do you teach the skill of finding joy? Yes.

So there are three steps to it. Okay. And the first step relates to the question you just asked, what has inner peace got to do with it? So the first step of training access to joy is easing, putting the mind at ease. So the idea is to put the mind in a state that is both alert and relaxed at the same time.

And when that happens, something phenomenal happens, which is that in that state of mind, calm and clear, the mind's joy spontaneously arises. And that blew my mind. The first time it happened, it blew my mind. And then I realized,

after a while, I realized that with practice, I can do it reliably. Like some large percentage of time that I sit. So for me right now, it's between 95 to 99% of the time. When I just sit here, within like 10 seconds, I feel a joy in my entire being. It's reliable. It's fascinating. So the question is why? And this relates to something we talked about earlier. The answer to that question is that joy is the default state of mind. And so therefore, when the mind is alert and relaxed, all it simply does is return to default, which is joyful mind. And that has a very important implication,

which is that if that is true, and I think it is true, joy is independent of sense pleasure and ego pleasure. I mean, normal life, normal people, we think that to be joyful, we need to have pleasant sensation or pleasant ego. Somebody praises you or something like that. But it turns out not to be true. I mean, those things are good. However, you don't need them.

Just by sitting down and being in a default mind, the same joy arises. And that, among many other things, is the first, is the antidote to greed. We're greedy, why? Because we want to be joyful by having more sense pleasure. And the moment we realize we don't need sense pleasure to be joyful,

greed becomes weaker and weaker. What about, okay, so alert and relaxed. And so we can train both of those. Yes. Now we're getting into mechanics. Both of those are really easy to train. Yes.

And then, okay, why do you suppose that people are so interested in the external rewards the pleasure the temporary pleasure that comes from uh people saying hey nice job you matter like let me pay you money whatever whatever whatever like the external temporary stuff why are we so enthralled with it because i know i know what it does from a neurochemical standpoint. There's this wonderful dopamine.

There's the serotonin that takes place. There's adrenaline. All of that happens in our brain, in our chemistry. So what are your thoughts about why people are so almost drunk, like in a stupor, about the value of external? Yeah, there are two very simple reasons. The first, you just illuminated, which is there is a dopamine

and whatever chemicals in the mind that rewards the brain. And number two, people do not know that there's any other way. I mean, the things I say surprise a lot of people. The fact that you can be joyful

without external stimulus is surprising to a lot of people. And once people learn that, I think then there's a second way. Got it. Okay, so just the concept. Do you work from that idea? Like if sometimes just hearing a concept

will open a door to a new way. I hope so. Because you've done a lot of idea sharing. Especially the concept has scientific backing. So there was one study on this mind. If you don't mind, I can just tell you the study. Love it. So this state of mind I just talked about,

when you bring your mind to a state that's calm and clear, then joy arises. You can actually push it all the way to extreme. So the extreme of that, there's a word for it. It's called jhana, J-H-A-N-A. That's the word I was looking for. Yes. So in the state of jhana, your mind is perfect

in serenity and serenity, stability, and concentration, and peace, and so on. So there's no thought arising, and so on, and so forth. No chatter. Okay, so jhana is no mind. Not no mind.

Not no mind. It's the perfection of stillness of mind. Perfection of stillness of mind. Okay, can I get into the weeds with you before? Perfection of calmness of mind, sorry. Calmness of mind. Okay, can I get in the weeds here before you go to the science? Okay. Okay, so no mind, still mind, an unfettered mind, and a moving mind.

Yes. Okay, so you track track on those they're different they're different and and there's so some of my understanding of a still mind yes is that that can be problematic because as soon as the mind is still i'm missing the moment uh no not true okay a moving mind yes is is okay i can't wait to hear why you say no because a moving mind is, okay, I can't wait to hear why you say no. Because a moving mind can be moving around the center of a moment and also missing time. Now, no mind is there's no thoughts. Okay. So we're coming to the limits of vocabulary.

Yeah. Because a lot of these things are not clearly defined. But I can give you a little bit of context. This is from the Tibetan system, which I find very useful. In the Tibetan system of describing the mind, there are three levels. There is gross mind,

subtle mind, and very subtle mind. Okay, so what's the first word? Gross. Gross, large? Yeah, gross as in rough. Rough, okay. Rough, big Okay. So what's the first word? Gross. Gross. Large. Yeah. Gross as in rough. Rough. Okay. Rough. Big N.

So not refined. Okay. Gross as in not refined. Yeah. And then subtle and then very subtle. Very subtle. Yeah. Okay.

So the reason I disagree that still mind is not the same as no mind is because I think no mind is not a gross phenomenon. However, still mind can be a gross mind phenomenon. Ah, that's cool. Okay. I think they're different as well. Yeah. In other words, the mind is at this level, like day-to-day level and can be a gross mind phenomenon. Ah, that's cool. Okay, I think they're different as well. In other words, the mind is at this level, like day-to-day level,

and can be still. You can be still. Can be still, like perfectly still. Okay. Yeah. But when it comes to no mind, I think we're talking about subtle mind and very subtle mind phenomenon.

Very subtle mind, yeah. And the difference, I think, and this hasn't been proven, but I think, so first we know for sure, things operating on gross mind, they are neural correlates. We can measure for sure things have operated on gross mind they are neuro correlates we can measure in the brain okay gross mind you can measure in the brain yeah subtle mind very subtle mind maybe not and we don't know for sure okay okay and what we can

measure in the brain is electrical activity uh and neurochemical yeah also yeah and also activity of the blood uh consumption of metabolism of oxygen. Okay, yeah. So we measure those things as well. Yep, okay, brilliant. Okay, that all can happen in gross mind. Yes. And so you can have a still mind in gross mind. Correct, perfectly still.

Perfectly still. And what is a perfectly still mind for you? Perfectly still mind, there are a couple of markers. The first marker is that concentration is perfect. On one thing? On one thing. on one thing on one thing on one thing yes and so when the mind wanders and you bring it back it doesn't that's not a still mind correct that's right so that's work that's training that's right okay and then so if i am deeply focused like a dog staring at a cat and i'm locked in or whatever that analogy is

and that's all that matters to me in that moment, you're calling that a still mind? Maybe, but it goes deeper than that. That's right. Okay, keep going. So that's the first marker, perfect concentration. The second marker is no thought arising, no chatter.

Or depending on who you talk to, there are some teachers that say there's some subtle thoughts. Some teachers say there is one and precisely one thought, which is that it's time to get out of the state. So before that, there's no thought. So there's some variation, but

it's basically there's either very little thoughts, very quiet thoughts, or no thoughts at all. So that's the second marker. The third marker is effortlessness. So in this state of complete total concentration, not just effortless, it's restful.

So imagine concentrating on one thing intensely for four hours at a stretch. And after four hours of intense concentration, you say, okay, good. Now I'm rested. Now I'm ready to do real work. That's the third marker. The fourth marker,

this is the one that is relevant to our discussion it's extreme joy so how extreme better than sex according to the description Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth

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that elevate your routine without complicating it, I'd love for you to check them out. Head to calderalab.com slash findingmastery and use the code findingmastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's caldera lab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash finding mastery. You wouldn't know this. This is how I was introduced to it 20 some years ago. It was from a mentor of mine, Dr. Walter Rutherford. What's up, Walt? And so he says, I said,

I was a young kid, you know know and I said why why why bother with this thing that you're teaching me about mindfulness like come on yeah okay I get it it's gonna help me relax and he goes no it's not relaxation it's focus I said okay well I'm pretty good at focus and he says but you haven't had a full body orgasm yet what are you talking about and so that's how he grabbed my attention with it you know like well what is that

yeah fascinating yeah and now there's some research that is supporting it that's right yes and the one study on Jana

that I I think there's only one so far that has to do with the brain okay and that was fascinating so how does

how does that work right how do you get better than sex right and the suspect is dopamine overdrive. But if there's dopamine

overdrive, then we have a problem. Because then there might be addiction or habituation. There you go. So they studied this guy and then when he was in better than sex he pressed a button. And then what happened is in the brain,

it turns out that the dopamine is only slightly activated. So there's just a little bit of dopamine. It's not a flooding, like if you take cocaine or whatever. That's right. Tiny bit. And however, the cortical activity on the surface of the brain is very low. Okay, so it has a larger impact. That's right.

There's less noise. has a larger impact. That's right. There's less noise. Not just larger impact. From a first-person perspective, that little bit of joy looks like everything. There it is. And that is how you get immense joy. Okay. Yeah, it's fascinating.

And you call that the fourth level. What fourth level? The joy piece. Like, what was the first one? I wish I had my pen out. The first one was stillness. Oh, I mean the four markers. The four markers.

Of this. Yeah, and the very, very, the deepest level, the fourth is what we're talking about. No, these are the four markers of the Jhana state. Of the Jhana state. Yeah.

And this is only the first Jhana. And the Jhana goes progressively deeper. And there's two more? There's three more. So, yeah. So, there's more nuance in there's three more so so uh uh yeah so i'm this there's more nuance in that okay so uh this basically what i just described is a perfection of concentration of of shamatha come abiding and uh it leads to something called jhana and so this that's

my description traditionally jhana is described as having five factors. The first two factors are attentional factors. So, they're called vitaka, vichara, and depending on how you translate the terms, vitaka is the placing of attention, vichara is the sustaining

of attention, and they're both perfect. The next two factors are the joy factors, piti and sukha. Piti is energetic joy. Sukha is non-energetic joy, subtle joy, and they're both perfect. And the last factor is equanimity.

So traditionally, this is the five factors of jhana, and then as the jhana gets deeper and deeper, those factors begin to fade away. Oh, they fade away. It's fascinating, right? So this is the first jhana. Second jhana and then as the jhana gets deeper and deeper those factors begin to fade away oh they fade away yeah it's fascinating right so the next so if

this is the first jhana second jhana the attentional factors fade away vittaka vichara attention to what fades away? factors

the attentional factors fade away in the second jhana yeah and the reason is because according to the explanation the mind doesn't need that anymore

because the concentration is so perfect okay and then as you go deeper, PT, energetic joy, fades away because the mind is so refined that energetic joy

is too noisy. And then, in the next jhana, in the fourth jhana, even the non-energetic joy fades away because the mind is so pure that even that is too noisy.

Okay, so what happens? Okay, I totally got it. And that is what you're talking about, the full orgasm when that fades away. So better than orgasm is at the first level,

the surface one. The surface one where attention is no longer needed. No, even before that. Even before that. Yeah. So therefore, for a jhana practitioner, it's fairly easy to get there.

Good. Okay. And then when you say jhana, how do you spell it? J-H-A-N-E. J-H-A-N-E? A. A. Okay.

All right. So when we're doing this work what happens at the moment what is your experience that happens at the moment when attention fades away i haven't experienced that you have not yeah that's like mastery level so yeah okay and you have so then that happens before joy fades away uh correct so the joy factors are fairly uh what do you call it fairly persistent they persist all the way until the highest jhana okay so what you've experienced in your how many years of training uh 20-ish years so what i experienced is is pre-jhana pre-jhana which is joy yeah it's just so pre-jhana or so i don't have the joy that's better than sex okay but i do have the joy that that feels immersive sex. Okay. But I do have the joy that feels immersive.

And the way I describe it is that my whole body and mind and my whole being is immersed in joy. So even with my fairly immature practice, immature compared to the masters, that is already available. Okay, which is pretty good for you. It's pretty good. I think it's good for most people.

Yeah. And then, so when you're in a place of joy, what is the recommendation to let go of joy? What does that mean? To let go of joy. It's to, I don't know, to not be consumed by it. What do you mean recommendation? So that you can move to the next level.

What is the recommendation? Are you talking about jhana or are you talking about real life? Jhana. Oh, in the state of jhana, there is no recommendation. The mind just spontaneously lets go because the mind is just refined. Okay. Yeah. All right.

So then what you're doing when you're in a state of meditative joy, if you will, is that you're just noticing it and experiencing it. Yes. And then are there thoughts associated with that for you? Yes. Yes. And those thoughts are i'm having joy this is joy yes sometimes sometimes it's just there it's just and and okay and then

and then you're still waiting so to speak to go to the next the deeper i'm still practicing not waiting not waiting so you're still training training correct okay and then let's get into the mechanics like what does your training look like uh day to day oh shall i go to the other two factors please yeah let's hold that yeah let's hold that okay so so the the three uh the three steps or three ways to to train access to joy first is easing second is inclining so the word inclining is basically to change the inclination of mind. And the word inclining in this context, the Buddha compared it to the slope of a mountain. Buddha said if the mountain slopes in a certain way,

water flows effortlessly in that direction. In the same way, when the mind is inclined towards a certain way, then experiences, mental experiences, flow effortlessly in that way. And so therefore, for example, if you're inclined towards anger, every other thing makes you angry effortlessly. But if you're inclined towards joy, then every other experience

brings you joy. Effortlessly. Therefore, in order to feel joy a lot, the way to do it is to change the inclination of mind. Okay. So this is why if somebody maybe non-consciously is moving towards anger, when somebody cuts them off, they're pissed off. Yes.

Look at that jerk. Yes. Okay. All right. So then, so then part of the work is to have a target of joy or peace or money or anger or whatever, but okay. And you're saying, okay,

yeah, yeah, but let's let, let's let it be joy. That's the, the gate into the deepest level of experiences. No, I'm saying we need training.

And so, so there are specific ways to change the inclination of mind. So in this way, for example, for joy, there's a very easy way to do it. And it's very pleasant as well, which is to notice thin slices of joy in life. That's cool. So what is a thin slice of joy? So I've been talking for a while and I'm getting thirsty. I'm drinking some water.

So there's a feeling of joy. It's very thin. It's thin in temporarily and spatially. So temporarily it's only, it lasted me like

two or three seconds of joy. Spatially, it was like, it was a subtle joy. It wasn't like, yay, I got water.

It's like, that's kind of nice. Right? So it's thin both in space and time. And the interesting thing is that we miss all those moments right it's like whatever but the moment you pay attention to it oh my god there is a moment there's a thin slice of joy there two or three seconds of nice and then

you if you pay attention to that you realize that those moments abound in life. They're everywhere. So if you practice that, you practice just noticing those things. First effect, you're already happier. Because those moments don't pass by. You're seeing them. You're enjoying them. And second, more importantly, you change the inclination of mind. We do this a lot.

The mind re-inclines itself towards joy. So that joy becomes effortless. Because you're paying more attention to the the triggers of and the experience of joy uh not so much a trigger to experience itself just the experiences correct okay so when you're saying when you go down to reach for your cup you somehow know that there's likely going to be joy on the other side of it yeah right so you're you're not priming yourself in any way as soon as you like during the reaching of the cup.

Yeah. Right. Because at the level that we're talking about now, that reaching of the cup could be joy at some point, but right now as amateurs, that's not, it's not until we actually experience it. That's right.

So you're not paying attention to the triggers of it. You're paying attention to the experience of it. Correct. And then how is that different than or not different than pleasure? A temporary relief of a dry mouth. Yeah, there's no difference. The difference is the attention. The attention.

Yes. Intention or attention? Attention. Attention. Okay. So there are two levels of it. The first level is just noticing. Noticing that there is this joy. Okay. And noticing makes a huge difference already. The second level

is attending. And I like the word attending because there are two senses of the word. The first sense is paying attention. The second sense is like somebody is sick, you're attending to a patient. And I'm applying both senses. So the difference between noticing and attending is attending is that you put care and you put intention and you put some kindness and some love into that experience. Okay. All right, cool. Okay. And then, so you're not, just for my clarity, you're not differentiating between pleasure and joy.

Correct. However, yes, correct. In this case. Okay. joy correct uh however yes correct uh in this in this case okay uh i was i will make it slightly i'll make it a slight distinction which is i think pleasure leads to joy you do yeah okay because i've been i've thought about this differently i've thought i've always had the thought that pleasure is the temporary pleasure is very different than happiness And I think we're both going to nod our heads to that. Right.

Okay. But temporary pleasure can be the thief or the seduction or the seducer away from happiness because the temporary pleasure of here's $5. Hey, you're really great. Hey, you know, can you come do something nice for me or whatever? Like you matter. Some external source feels like a temporary pleasure, like drugs, like buying a car, like whatever, like watching TV, like it's temporary pleasure. Yeah. So you're, but you're, you're not differentiating those.

Correct. Uh, yes, because there's another dimension, which is more important than that, which is the dimension of wholesome pleasure and unwholesome pleasure. Okay. So you're saying this is a wholesome pleasure. Uh, yes. So, so how do I define that? Wholesome pleasure is defined as... So wholesome pleasure is defined as pleasure that is not polluted by greed, hatred,

or the seeds of future suffering. So if anything is polluted or contaminated by one of these three, then it's unwholesome. So for example, taking a drug, taking drugs because you plant the seeds of future suffering. Okay, got it. Yeah, right.

Because literally you're going to suffer and if you take it all the way back to the people that made the drug or whatever. Yeah, okay. So therefore, even given that dimension, wholesome, unwholesome, it doesn't really matter

whether it's temporary or not. It matters whether it's wholesome, unwholesome, it doesn't really matter whether it's temporary or not. It matters whether it's wholesome or not. Okay. Okay. Now I'm tracking completely. Okay. That's good. Okay.

So wholesome, temporary. It doesn't matter if it's temporary. Wholesome is like dangerous. Because they're all temporary. Yeah. Right. Yeah. I love that.

All joys are temporary. Okay. And then, so go back to the inclination. Yes. Is that as simple as setting your mind on what matters most? Is that how you generate the proper incline? More than that. More than that.

Because this is a conceptual level, right? I'm going to the level of sensation and perception. So that's below conception. It's less what? It's below the level of conception and perception. So that's below conception. It's less what? It's below the level of conception. Oh, so it's not. So joy, but joy is a concept. No, it is an experience.

I like to suggest that it is a sensation, not a concept. Okay. All right. Yeah. And so I guess the concept would be a joyful life. Yes. Happiness. So how I define it.

Even happiness is kind of an aggregation of experience over time. Yes, happiness. So how I define, even happiness is kind of an aggregation of experience over time. Yeah, right. Okay. Okay, so then go back to the inclination. How do you help people guide their inclination? Oh, it's very simple.

So we do mindfulness meditation, except that in daily life, the mindfulness is applied to things like a sense of joy. Okay, right. Say, talking to a friend for example that's like meeting when you walk into the door there's a thing size of joy yeah like attending to those things yeah so being being present with the moments that are might naturally have joy in

them that's right okay and then have you i don't know if you've ever tried this uh one of my teachers suggested to me it's i didn't know where he was coming from with it, but I practiced over a long time. And it sounds like it was this is that when you look at somebody's eyes and so you, you know where I'm going with this, right. Is that there's a, there's white and then there's kind of a black ring and then color, whatever, brown, green, blue, yellow, and then there's black on the inside. But if you look at, like, I can look at your eye right now and in the colored part, I can see a little white square. Okay.

And so that little white square is simply the reflection of the light from, from the windows. Okay. So then if I look at that white light and I have a moment to say, ah, there's goodness in there and that was it. That's it. So it's thin slicing, recognizing good in people was a practice that one of my teachers recommended. So I'd walk around in a weird way at first, looking deeply into people's, like the little white of their eye.

They're like, what are you doing, Gervais? But like, so is that a thin slicing of joy? No. It's a thin slicing of something. Something, which is my third practice for joy, for accessing joy. So let's segue into that. Okay, let's go. So remember the first two.

Take me back. There's the first, second, and third. That's right. The first was easing. That's right. Second was inclining. Okay. And the third is uplifting.

Uplifting. Uplifting the mind. Specifically uplifting with heart qualities, kindness, compassion, and altruistic joy. What do you call those qualities? What kind? Heart qualities. Heart. Heart.

Heart. So compassion. Loving kindness. Loving kindness. And altruistic joy. And altruistic joy. Beautiful. Specifically those things.

So for example, one of the practices, gentler, easier than what you just told me about. And I think at least as effective. When you see a human being, just think, I wish for this guy to be happy. Do it to me right now. Just think. See, already you're happier. Already you're smiling.

Yeah, that's right. So just the thought, I wish for this person to be happy, is intrinsically rewarding to the giver of the thought. So that, my friend, is loving kindness. The Pali word is metta. And loving-kindness, first, it creates happiness in and of itself. But more than that, beyond that, is if you do that, something happens, which is, it starts to create a habit. So the habit is every human

being you see, that's the first thought, I wish for this character to be happy. That's the first thought. And then habit becomes personality human being you see, that's the first thought. I wish for this character to be happy. That's the first thought. And then habit becomes personality. Personality becomes character. Character becomes you. And you become a kind person. So through training a mental habit, you change into another human being.

Okay, so in step two, the inclination, I think, okay. Step three is to develop the habit. Step three is uplifting the mind of goodness. Uplifting the mind of goodness. And there's three ways to do that. Yeah. So uplifting the mind of goodness is to develop those three qualities, kindness, compassion, and altruistic joy using mental habits.

Using habits. Yes. Okay. passion uh and uh altruistic joy using mental habits using habits yes okay and then so that it's almost like you reverse engineer um but you reverse engineer character traits so from habits to character traits that's one way to put it yeah and then what happens after character uh character becomes you you yeah okay so then so then how is inclination different than what we just talked about I guess no different so so the the the difference is the subject. So in the step two inclination, it's inclined the mind towards joyful experiences. Okay, there you go. And step three is specifically using goodness.

Goodness, right. Okay. Yeah. Okay. All right. That is so good. I did out my thinking. Five seconds of thinking.

And when you do thinking, do you see images? Do you organize it like in charts, like in your mind? What does your thinking look like? Words. And it's clusters of words or is it like a decision tree? No, just rearranging words.

Okay. All right. Cool. Yeah and not not in pictures you don't see pictures that's a good point this is getting subtler I see myself speaking you do yeah there you go okay and then when you see when you hear me say the word joy, what happens inside of you, both from a mental and a physiological and a sensation? Not much. The word joy is simply a descriptor. It's a descriptor. And then when you think about joy in the world.

Uh-huh. That's imagery. Imagery. Imagery that causes a physiological slash emotional experience and then do you see it so do you see like cartoons or do you see what's that i see people people and then you see like smiling people or joyful people whatever right that's right and are they people you know or are they regions strangers Strangers. Strangers. Are you familiar with a, and I first learned this from a Confucius practitioner, which was start with getting yourself right. Right.

Okay. Right. And then you move outward. Right. So from you to your loved ones, to your family, to your extended family, to your neighbors, like, and then you move it to regions of the world. That's right. And whatever that might be, it might be peace or happiness or joy whatever right yeah and is that is that a practice that you also use uh i'm familiar with the saying but i don't i don't do it explicitly i think for me

it's always a big a large focus from day one it is is? Yeah. Okay, so you don't think about just your wife being happy and then extend out. You go big concept. I think the whole damn world. Yeah, you do. Why did you start there? Because you're doing it, which is phenomenal.

Because that's where people are. Okay. I mean, I don't know about you. I mean, I took the Bodhisattva vow, right? To benefit all sanctioned beings. So that's the starting point, all sanctioned beings. And then can you, in two sentences, describe Buddhism? Is that possible?

Yes. The Buddha put it fairly explicitly. He said, what I teach is suffering and liberation from suffering. One sentence. Suffering and the liberation from suffering. And is the liberation from suffering loving kindness? No, beyond that. Keep going. The liberation from suffering is basically the Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path. Okay. So, and you wouldn't begin to condense that into loving kindness? No. Loving kindness is just one of the eight, depending on how you slice and dice it.

Okay, brilliant. Okay. Let me say that again. Loving kindness is just part of the eight, because it's not clear there's one. Loving kindness is just part of the eightfold path. Yeah, yeah. And then the four noble truths? The first noble truth is that life is dukkha.

So what is dukkha? A lot of people translate the word dukkha to suffering, which is not a bad translation, but it's incomplete. So the best translation of dukkha I've come across is unsatisfactoriness. Life is unsatisfactory. But the literal meaning of dukkha is even better. So the literal meaning is

the wheel. And in the wheel, there is a little bit of imperfection in the axle or something. And because of the slight imperfection, it's a rough ride. It's not even rough the entire time. It's like every...

Now and then you go... It's not completely smooth. And that is dukkha. So life is like that. It's not completely smooth. And that is dukkha. So life is like that. That's what the Buddha said. Life is dukkha. So it could be suffering or it could be just that imperfection. Second noble truth, what is the, Buddha said the source of dukkha is tanha.

And tanha is translated usually as craving, which I think is the very inadequate translation. So the literal meaning of the word tanha is translated usually as craving, which I think is a very inadequate translation. So the literal meaning of the word tanha is thirst. Thirst. That is the cause of dukkha. Thirst of? Thirst. So the Buddha put it, there are three thirsts,

there are three tanhas. The first is a thirst for sensual pleasure. The next two are a little bit esoteric. The second one is the thirst for being, or the thirst to be. The third one is a thirst to not be. So the last one demolishes the myth that Buddhism is about annihilation.

Because the Buddha specifically said that thirst for non-being is a tanha that causes suffering. So that's the... Thanks for asking that question. Most people don't ask that. About which? What is thirst? The four noble truths? No, the thirst.

Yeah, the thirst. So you see the precision of the Buddha's teaching? Like this, four this and three that. So the third noble truth is that there is a solution to tanha and therefore to suffering.

And the solution is nirvana. And the word nirvana, a lot of people again translate to, I think it's best left untranslated. So people translate it to disappearing. What's the word? You're making it sound like evaporating.

Yeah, being distinguished. Extinguishing. Extinguishing? Yeah, so define extinguishing. Inadequate. So the nibana is, in Pali it's Nibbana, in Sanskrit it's Nivbana. Nivbana

literally means when a fire runs out of fuel. So that is Nibbana. So in the Buddhist context, I think what the Buddha is describing is when greed, hatred and ignorance run out of fuel. And that's another story.

I'll tell you that in a minute, once I complete the Four Noble Truths. The Fourth Noble Truth is the methodology to bring about nirvana, therefore demolishing tanha, therefore demolishing suffering. And the Four Noble Truths is the Eightfold Path, the eight ways that work

together to bring about Nirvana. So I'm going to make a commentary on that point about Nirvana extinguishing. This was fascinating. There was a conversation between this guy whose name I don't remember with the Buddha. And this guy

is a very smart guy. And he's a practitioner. So he asked the Buddha this question. And the way he a very smart guy. He's a practitioner. So he asked the Buddha this question. And the way he put it is very interesting. So the question has to do with extinguishing. So the way he asked it is, when somebody attains nirvana,

full nirvana, and then when he dies, does he exist, not exist, both exist or not exist, and he exist? Not exist? Both exist or not exist? And neither exist or not exist? And the Buddha said, none of the four applies. And the guy was like, what the?

What does that mean? So the Buddha said, when this fire runs out of fuel, did the fire go east, north, south, or west? And the guy said, none of the four, what's the word?

Apply. None of the four applies. And the Buddha said, in the same way. Fully enlightened, somebody attend Nirvana when he dies, none of the four exist, none exist,

and so it applies. And so, living enlightenment is different than nirvana? That is actually a nuanced question. I can give you a nuanced answer.

I would like one. Yeah, for sure. In the practice, and my friend, you're a practitioner, so you probably know this, there are two types

of attainments. There are state attainments. There are state attainments and there are inside attainments. And they're different. So all state attainments are impermanent. With the possible exception of Nirvana. But they're all impermanent. And so, for example,

if you go into the state of jhana and then you're blissing out, and then you come back to real life an hour later in traffic, you start cursing the guy in front of you. So that previous jhana was impermanent. However, insight attainments are permanent. So what does that mean? I'll give you an example of something in daily life.

So let's say that we live in a world, and my grandmother lived in that world. We live in a world where every time there's a lunar eclipse, you believe it's because the heavenly dog is trying to eat the moon. Okay. And every time that happens, the whole village will come together

and they'll bang the pots and pans, make a lot of noise, so that they scare away the heavenly dog. And once again, they save the moon. Right? So imagine you live in that world.

And then imagine suddenly you had an insight because you study about, I don't know, you studied astronomy and so on. And then you realize that lunar eclipse happens because the Earth's shadow

is on the moon. And the moment you realize that, from that moment on, you never think again that the dog is trying to eat the moon. And the moment you realize that, from that moment on, you never think again that the dog is trying to eat the moon. Even though it looks as if the dog is trying to eat the moon. So that insight attainments,

therefore, are permanent. So therefore, Nirvana, sorry, let me say that again. Therefore, awakening, enlightenment, is an insight attainment. And involving states, by the way. So Nirvana is involved in it. Insight is involved attainment. Okay. And involving states, by the way. So Nirvana is involved in it.

Insight is involved in it. So Jhana is involved in it. But ultimately, it's an insight attainment. Nirvana is insight attainment or enlightenment is insight? Enlightenment. Enlightenment is.

Yes. And then Nirvana is the... Awakening. Yes. Yeah. The full awakening. Nirvana is a little bit... so there's a little bit of controversy there's no consensus

so there's so for the context the context is that the Buddha said only the fully enlightened person understands nirvana so therefore everything we say are partial understanding having said that

the Buddha said something the Buddha said everything that arises is subject to to everything that is subject

to arising is subject to cessation however he did some place I think say that

Nirvana is not subject to arising and therefore not subject to cessation so maybe Nirvana is itself subject to arising and therefore not subject to cessation. So maybe Nirvana is itself a different category. I do not know. Having said that,

there are teachers who teach that Nirvana is simply cessation and therefore it's a state attainment and not an inside attainment. Now here's a ridiculous kind of like almost, I don't want to butcher the beauty of the struggle that you're going through to find the right words to articulate something that is hard to grasp, really hard to grasp. If there's 7 billion people in the world, how many people experience nirvana? Probably very close to zero.

And I think it's because most people are not aware of it. And those who are aware of it, even those who are aware, the training is, it takes a lot of training. It's hard. So the analogy is

going back into the, going back to a world like pre-1927. So 1927 was the first time exercise was studied as a scientific subject. Is that how you're seeing some of the mindfulness now? Oh, definitely. So in 1927, somebody started studying exercise and then created a field, exercise physiology.

But let's say before that, let's say the 1800s. Very few people know about the concept of physical fitness. There are people who are fit because they are soldiers and so on. They have to be fit. So in that world, you find that out of whatever,

like half a billion people in the world at a time, number of people who are very fit, very, very close to zero because very few people understand fitness and those who do very fit, are very, very close to zero because very few people understand fitness. And those who do understand fitness, very few of them put in enough training to become very, very fit. So we are in that world,

but we are in the mental side of that world. Yeah, okay. And so we're at, like if you were saying 1927, we're at 1927 now or 1937? We are just after 1927. Okay. And then so is the starting place for you, is it thin slices of joy or is it a sustained focus practice? For me, what do you mean?

Yeah. How do you help people begin? Would you say thin slices of joy? Or would you say, well, you actually need to train some focus as well? So the way I explain all three pillars of practice. You do. Yeah. And different people, depending on their mental inclinations and mental dispositions, their own practice works better for them

I mean all three practice works for everybody but some people find some practice initially to be more beneficial than others and when you're saying

all three are you talking about easing inclining and uplifting okay easing inclining and uplifting

right and then when I think about mindfulness I think about there's two types, two types. And I've been, I've been coached up that there's might be a third. So I'd like to hear like how you teach me on this. There's single point. Yes. Concentration and

focus training. Correct. Focusing on a breath over and over and over and over again. Yes. Right. Or something, right. A sound of whatever. And then there's contemplative. Yes. Which is without judgment, observing the thoughts. Yes. Maybe there's contemplative yes which is without judgment observing the thoughts yes maybe there's a priming question or a priming statement and you follow that and see where it goes okay and then i was told so that's how i've grown up you know trying to understand it and then uh i was told that no no imagery is also part of it right but i've always kept that as like in this this other world me, which is like the sports psychology or performance psychology world that no imagery is really about seeing your future state. And there's some neurological patterns that might take place from that. But I've always thought of that as something very different. Correct. So not that I don't use it, but I've applied it with a different lens. Correct. Would you say no, no, Mike, you've got this all backwards. Correct. Correct. Would you say, no, no, Mike, you've got this all backwards. Correct. Yes.

Okay, let's keep going. Okay. No, you don't, you didn't get it all backwards. There's a very important inadequacy in what you just said. And it has to do, again,

with the precision of the languaging. So what it does talk about is not different types of mindfulness. It's different types of meditation. Okay.

That is the difference. And they are very, they are very different. So meditation is defined as mental training. Mm-hmm. Right?

So specifically mental training to, let me see, there's a very nice definition in the book. I'm not trying to remember that.

Mm-hmm. Okay. I'm going to say that. Meditation is defined as mental training to familiarize the mind with specific states of mind or specific qualities. So everything you just described is a form of meditation, not

mindfulness meditation. So for example, first thing you talk about, focus attention. Bring your attention to one point, coming back over, that's one form of meditation. first thing you talk about focus attention bring it bring your attention to one point coming back over that's one form of meditation that thing

seeing everything as they occur that's one form of meditation so mindfulness is in contrast mindfulness is defined as moment to moment non-judging attention

so mindfulness is a form of attending okay form of attention not it's not meditation it's different so then what would mindfulness training So mindfulness is a form of attending. Okay. Form of attention. It's not meditation. It's different. So then what would mindfulness training be?

But let me go into that a bit more. Okay. There's a very important nuance that I think causes a lot of confusion, which is that mindfulness is involved in almost every form of meditation. And there's a very nice analogy. Somebody said, this was after the Buddha. Somebody said that mindfulness is like the salt of meditation. So in cooking, every form of dish you cook,

it involves some salt. Got it. So every form of meditation involves some mindfulness. And then there's, of course, there's mindfulness meditation, which is entirely mindfulness. So I think that is what causes the confusion. Okay, so mindfulness is the salt. Yes, moment to moment, non-judging attention.

Non-judging attention. And so it's like Jon Kabat-Zinn talks about it, a particular way of focusing in the present moment without judgment. A particular way of paying attention. Not even focus. Again, there's a nuance. There's an important nuance in precision. Okay.

So paying attention could be focused or unfocused. But the key is attention. Attention. And then, so you're suggesting that it's sloppy, so to speak, to say that mindfulness training and meditation are different. I'm sorry, are the same. Correct. It's sloppy, yes.

Okay. Or rather, unprec mine are unprecise unprecise insufficiently precise mindfulness is a way of attending without judgment

moment to moment that's right yeah and then meditation is the way the moment to moment yeah and then

meditation is the training yes it's mental training yeah okay right okay so having cleared that up everything you talk about is a specific type of And then meditation is the training. Yes, it's mental training. Yeah, okay. Brilliant. Okay. So having cleared that up,

everything you talk about is a specific type of meditation because there are different ways to train the mind. Okay. And there are a lot more than what you just said. So imagery is one. Another form of meditation is analytical, which I don't do myself. And the way it works is the teacher gives you a question

and then you just meditate on that question. So, yeah. And then one more, something I just alluded to, which is loving kindness. And that form of meditation is when you bring about the emotionality of

involving kindness over and over again and familiarizes both the mind and the body. Is that different than gratitude training? Yes, it's different. And what is the purpose of mindful eating? So the main purpose is attention. It's to train attention. The secondary purpose, the couple of, one of them is joy

and the other one is gratitude. That's what I, yeah. Okay. It's hard. What is hard? Mindful eating. Yeah.

I find it challenging. Okay. I find it easy. Do you? Yeah. Because you like eating? That's right. Okay.

All right. Brilliant. So, so then how do you find Google? I didn't mean how do I find Google. How do you get, how do you get connected to Google? I,

I was, I was geek, right? Yeah. So, so back then the geeks knew about Google. So, so I just applied

and I sent an email to them that was to, so the, it turns out that the VP of engineering, Rose at the time was, he was a ucsb professor so he was on leave from santa barbara so i was in santa barbara and so i i know about him so i just call call him i sent him an email and he was he was very un-asian because in the email i just told him i'm very good you should you should hire me not in those exact words but fairly close so I sent him that email

and then I remember there was like hire.com boom anybody with pulse can get a job at that time at that time and then I was like

my professor rated me the best master student he's ever had I was award winning engineer so I have my pick so I sent that email on Tuesday I heard back from the recruiter and I told her by so I sent that email on Tuesday I heard back

from the recruiter and I told her by Friday I'm off the market it's now or never on Thursday they flew me to Mountain View

for the interview on Friday I got a job very cool and it was very funny and you were an engineer for

five, six years yes but in my defense I was young and needed the money. Okay. That's too funny. Okay, and then you said, you know what? Let's create some joy. So then walk us through like Silly, Search Inside Yourself.

Yeah, it was actually more involved in joy so it was it was like I was taking a walk basically 2003 I was taking a walk outside the Google campus

which back then was a small building and then I had the moment where I knew what I wanted to do for the rest of my life which was to

create the conditions for world peace in my lifetime how did that realization take place for you take a walk that's a good question so so to create the conditions for world peace in my lifetime. How did that realization take place for you? Take a walk.

That's a good question. So specifically something else. There's a good question that very few people ask that question. And so the question is what thought preceded just before that thought, I want to create a condition of world peace in my lifetime. That thought was the sudden realization that I was happy. I mean, I was miserable when I was young.

And then I learned meditation and then I became happy. And then so I was taking a walk and then suddenly I realized that in the past my baseline happiness was misery. Nothing happens, I was miserable. And then in a few short years, my baseline happiness

is joyliness. And it's like, if I, like this flawed, stupid, worthless human being, if I can do this, anybody can do this.

I mean, I definitely think anybody can do this. And if everybody does this, this creates a condition for world peace. And then, okay,

so then you have this moment. So, yeah, so world peace, create a condition for world peace and then okay so then you have this moment so yeah so we're piecing create a conditional peace and I knew precisely how I wanted to do it okay which was to scale inner peace in a joy in compassion worldwide so you scale these three things worldwide we have the conditions for world peace and I want to do that in one lifetime question is how how I figured that out figure the way to do that is to align peace, joy, compassion with success and profits. Meng, I've loved this conversation and I feel like we could go on for hours.

You have so much to share about joy and we have so much to learn from your insights and your ability to live authentically. And maybe most importantly, to do the serious work that you do and to not take yourself seriously, it's so refreshing. So thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. And for those who are interested in learning more about Meng, you can go to chademeng.com, that's C-H-A-D-E-M-E-N-G.com. And you can also read his books, Joy on Demand, The Art of Discovering the Happiness Within, right? And also search Inside Yourself, your first book. So also you can follow him along at Twitter at, at C-H-A-D-E-M-E-N-G. And with that, if you enjoyed this conversation,

please tell three friends about Finding Mastery. Please, please do this. And then write a review on iTunes. It helps. It helps amplify. It helps to build our community. It helps people to be able to find us. And yeah, it helps. So thank you, thank you for that as well.

And you can also follow us on Twitter at Michael Gervais, and you can follow us on Instagram at Finding Mastery. So it's Twitter at Michael Gervais, G-E-R-V-A-I-S, and then Instagram at Finding Mastery. With that, let's lead with love and strength and compassion and kindness and joy. With that, let's lead with love and strength and compassion and kindness and joy. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no-cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're listening. Thank you. day, punch over to finding mastery.com slash newsletter to sign up. The show wouldn't be

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