Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Hard Work, Resiliency, and Sacrifice | Surfer, Mick Fanning

Episode Date: November 15, 2019

This week’s conversation is with Mick Fanning, a professional surfer from Australia, regarded as one of the best surfers ever.Mick won the ASP World Tour in 2007, 2009 and 2013 and is the living embodiment of professional surfing.He’s spent the better part of two decades as one of the biggest gravitational forces on the Tour, racking up 22 Tour wins, 11 Top 5 finishes in addition to those three World Titles.For over 20 years Mick’s schedule has been dictated by event dates and locations — and in the past few years, his gut told him it was time to step away, officially retiring in 2018.This conversation isn’t so much about surfing as it is about Mick’s will to be great, his unflappable resiliency, and the cost of this pursuit.Mick has been through it all — the highs and the lows.Catastrophic injuries have sidelined him multiple times during his career and he’s also had to deal with the passing of not just one, but two his brothers, and other close friends.Some of you may be familiar with Mick from an incident in July of 2015 when he was attacked by a Great White shark during the finals of the J-Bay Open in South Africa.It was broadcasted on a live webcast, where you can actually see Mick punch the shark and survive unscathed.For some people that type of trauma could keep them out of the water for a lifetime, but not Mick.He made three finals in 2015 and went into a historic world title race to finish the year in the No. 2 slot.And trauma is something we definitely touch on in this conversation.As a refresher, Big “T” traumas are the events most commonly associated with post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) including serious injury, sexual violence, or life-threatening experiences.Little “t” traumas are highly distressing events that affect individuals on a personal level but don’t fall into the big “T” category.What is highly distressing to one person may not cause the same emotional response in someone else, so the key to understanding little “t” trauma is to examine how it affects the individual rather than focusing on the event itself.You may not even realize how a Little “t” in your life is impacting your thoughts and actions._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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michael gervais, and I trade in training, a sport and performance psychologist, as well as the co-founder of Compete to Create. And the whole idea behind these conversations, behind this podcast, is to learn from people who are flat out switched on and have dedicated their life towards mastery. And at this point, I'm much more interested in mastery of craft and mastery of self. And when we first started, it was more about mastery of craft. And there's been this subtle shift in this awakening about the importance of mastery of self through mastery of craft. And what we're working to understand is how do they organize their inner life? And what are the mental skills they use to build and refine their ability to be able to do their craft across conditions.

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There's way more than that happening here. Don't tell. Okay. All right. Look, they're incredibly simple. They're effective. 28 grams of protein, just 150 calories and zero grams of sugar. It's rare to find something that fits so conveniently into a performance-based lifestyle and actually tastes good. Dr. Peter Attia, someone who's been on the show, it's a great episode by the way, is also their chief science officer. So I know they've done their due diligence in that category. My favorite flavor right now is the chocolate chip cookie dough. And a few of our teammates here at Finding Mastery

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protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash finding mastery. Now this week's conversation is with Mick Fanning and he's a professional surfer, but more than that, he is, he, first of all, he made a massive dent in the sport. And the reason he did that is because he was aggressive in how he approached being a professional sportsman. And what does that mean to be aggressive? Is that he took it seriously, which that's not that uncommon. But in the way that he did that, he advanced the field not just once, but multiple times in the way that he conducted his professional development of his skill. And it's matched in equal intensity by the way that he's advanced as a human. And so not only is he world-class in his sport, but he's world-class as a human,

and evidenced by his efforts to help the planet and to be a good citizen, not only in his community of sport, but across the planet. Winning on the world stage is really hard. I mean, that's a very hard thing to do. And even more complicated, some might argue, to do it as an individual athlete in a sport where the conditions are completely different every time that you practice. And that's kind of the art of surfing. No wave is the same, no conditions are ever the same. And so practicing in the art and sport of surfing is complicated. It's a difficult sport to get better at. And not only is he great at it, but he won the world tour three times, 2007, 2009, and in 2013. And he spent the better part of two decades as one of the most influential athletes on tour.

And he won 22 tour wins. He had 11 top five finishes in addition to those three world title championships. For the last two decades, Mick's schedule has been dictated by the event dates and the locations around the planet where he would compete. And in the past few years, he decided to step away. Officially, he did that in 2018. And this conversation isn't so much about surfing as it is about Mick's will and desire and commitment to be great. Great at his craft and great as a human.

And he's got this unflappable resiliency. And we get into the mechanics of how he's done that and what he's been through. And also we talk about the cost of his uncommon pursuit. And Mick's been through much, you know, the highs and the lows, and we get into that. And one of the reasons this conversation is important, I think, for all of us is that all of us go through stuff now and, you know, it's easy for us to say, to watch an athlete and go, oh, he got hurt or she got hurt. Now Mick has been through some catastrophic injuries, but imagine what it's like for you, the thing you care most about where instantly, because injuries happen like fast, right? So instantly that thing that you care

most about is ripped away from you and you can't do it anymore. So when athletes go through that for an extended period of time, it requires something pretty special. And that is something that most of us have to deal with is adjustments in the everyday intensities of our life. And so Mick has had many of those and he understands how he's done it. And so for all of us, I think there's something very special to learn. And some of you also might be familiar with something that happened to Mick back in 2015, when he was attacked by a great white shark during the finals of one of the competitions on the world tour in South Africa. It was broadcasted on a live webcast where you can

actually see Mick, you know, wrestle with the shark to survive. And he was unscathed, but like the intensity of that moment. And so for most of us, we experienced some sort of trauma in our lives, either trauma with a big T or a small T. And, you know, we have to sort it out. That's our job is to sort it out and to understand how to respond to that trauma. And let's think about how most people think about trauma, post-traumatic stress disorder. It's a psychological term. It's a condition. And it's actually maybe not the best way to think about it. And really what happens when people go into trauma or experience trauma is that they, from that point forward, they fundamentally organize

their inner life to be able to protect themselves, to avoid trauma in the future. And so there becomes this protective mechanism for people. And sometimes it limits their ability and sometimes it creates heightened arousal levels and activation levels where we just respond in uneloquent or maladaptive ways to the man or woman that we want to be. And so Mick had that publicly, like chased down by a shark. And so we walk through how he moved through that experience. And that experience is emblematic for many of us that experienced either small T or large T trauma, which I don't think any of us really escape. So that part of this conversation I think is important. And it's important for two reasons. One is the relevance

for us all, but the other part is that during that same year, he came in second in the world at his craft. And so with that, I'm excited to introduce Mick to you. And not only, again, is he a legend in his sport, but a great ambassador for our planet and humanity in general. So with that, let's jump right into this conversation with Mick Fanning. Mick. Hi. Yeah. Okay, good.

So this is different. This conversation is completely different because I've had this thing where I'm not going to have folks on the podcast that I've spent significant time with. And, but we haven't spent significant time for a long time. Long time. Yeah. So, I mean, when was the last time we saw each other? At least a couple years for sure yeah and so if we go way back we met i think it was at red bull it had to have been red bull 2009 oh you remember the year yeah yeah how'd you do that um because after i met you i went on a pretty hot streak oh that's. It was down in Trussells.

Yeah, that's right. Or actually it was a ski. No, it was at Trussells. And yeah, you went on ripping. I mean, it was a great year for you overall. Yeah. Right? Yeah.

Ended up winning the last three out of the last five events and ended up winning world title that year. So how about it? What does it and ended up winning world title that year so how about it what does it take to win a world title and there's no simple answer to that obviously um look there's so many different ways to do it like i think everyone sits there and and thinks there's a there's one secret ingredient but there's not it's it's hard work it's preparation it's um and a little bit of luck seriously yeah putting yourself in the right position as often as you possibly can yeah that's how i think about luck like sometimes the waves don't come and sometimes they come and there's that thing but you got to capture the moments that

are afforded yeah for sure for sure you know sometimes they come and there's that thing but you got to capture the moments that are afforded yeah for sure for sure you know sometimes they were just like that's what i said preparation and hard work at the start because if you don't have that when those lucky moments come you're not going to realize them and so and you're going to falter on them. So that's the way that I sort of look at it is like those first swings come first and then maybe a wave comes when you need it, when you never expected it. Or, you know, sometimes the judging might go your way or something like that. But a lot of the time it's, yeah, it's just fundamentals of how anyone, whether it's sport, business world or whatever they're into

becomes great is just by hard work simple yeah smart work too like but you can't escape it maybe you can actually maybe you can like if you're i don't know six foot nine you can jump 41 inches and you're playing basketball and like it's all really natural but at some point you know hard work will outperform talent for sure until talent wants to work hard yeah right that old saying which you know you you are one of those rare ones that you had both yeah i don't think i was as talented as everyone else, though. Really? Yeah. You're the fastest. No?

Am I wrong? You're going like white lightning for a reason. Yeah, but still, I just felt I wasn't as talented as everyone else. You had that approach? Yeah. I always felt like I was the underdog you know when you're going against guys like Kelly Slater Andy Irons um even growing up with with Parker and um all these guys I was always second I was always third so I always felt like how do I get to that point I didn't know that so in youth like coming up what was that what were those leagues called um like? Like you do regional titles, state titles, Australian titles. And you kept coming in second?

Always. Always. Never won one of them. I didn't. And then here you are in the last whatever years, you cracked three world titles in your professional experience. And you were always top five, top ten? Yeah.

A couple of years I've slipped out. I got fat and lazy i didn't yeah right i did not know that you had that hunger like that chip on your shoulder thing from long ago i didn't i never put that together for you yeah that's really cool surprises man yeah what was that like um growing up like coming in second or third or fourth or whatever? It taught me not to expect anything. Like, you know, as we were talking just before about like talent and stuff like that, I think when you're young, that's when talent just shines through.

That's when talent just sort of just destroys everyone. And so that's why I always thought I wasn't as talented as everyone else because I had to work harder to get there and um even just in pretty much everything that I did like if it was like I loved soccer as a kid and then you know a bit of long distance running and stuff like that but I always felt like like i wasn't down the list but i was like just under the very best guys so i'd always have to put in those extras you had like a blue collar approach to getting better yeah like i'm just gonna put in the work put my head down and that probably led as we're stitching together a little bit that probably led to you becoming one of the main disruptors in the advancement of the sport through fitness like you were I don't know you maybe you're just

credited for it but I think you changed surfing from that perspective as being the influencer for like putting fitness into you know extremely athletic sport but not very sophisticated yeah i think we were sort of in a way very prehistoric like you know you think about surfing and it was a really fun party and i was very much that way too um it wasn't until yeah i got injured in 2004 and had to do the full six months of rehab coming back from tearing my hamstring off the bone that's that's why i got so deep into fitness you just run over that like it's like yeah you know i just tore my hamstring off my bone it happened what is that like to think like when you go back is there any kind of gum or stickiness around that part of your, your life?

Like I'm okay. So I'm thinking right now, I'm back in my head, like traumatic experiences and there's traumatic with a big T like, I don't know, being eaten by a shark and there's traumatic with a small T, you know, like, you know, ripping your flesh off your bone. Yeah, yeah. You know, little things. The small T, yeah. But maybe neither of those register. Like, obviously, we're going to get into the shark thing a little bit. But was that a small T, big T, or no T? At the time, it was a huge. It was a big T.

It was a big one, yeah. Yeah. Because the injury was so, I guess, so new to everyone. Like I was going and seeing people and I'm like, they're like, oh, you've torn your hamstring. I'm like, yeah, but there's something else. I can feel something else up in there that's not right. And it wasn't until I went and saw a doctor.

I got the MRI and I was working with Chris Prosser, who you know. Legend. You know, I've asked him a bunch of times to come on the podcast. He's like, yeah, yeah, we'll get to it. We'll get to it. That's Chris. That's Chris. So I was working with him and he knew.

And then he started like researching all these doctors and doing that for me. And then I got put in touch with one guy, Dr. David Wood in Sydney and I went down and saw him and he put it to me pretty bluntly. He's like, if you don't get your hamstring reattached you may never run again and if you do get it attached there is a chance you may run oh so i was just like oh well i've got to run so yeah how do you make that decision it wasn't it wasn't a hard decision not at all so it's like okay getting it done yeah just sign me up yeah how did you know how to trust him um he was he was a guy that um he was he felt warm he wasn't he wasn't like he was like really engaging really um you know smiley happy happy to sit down with you for as long as you needed, you know, gave, gave you his personal number and stuff like that. So I was like, yeah,

I got this guy. So he felt safe from a humane standpoint, but how did you trust his humane? It's not the right word from a humanistic standpoint, but how did you trust his acumen versus what the majority of folks were saying is like, how did you trust his acumen versus what the majority of folks were saying is like oh you you know you just got to tear and just kind of ice and rest and harden up and you know like get off your leg for a while you'll be fine well he had the stats i think at the time he'd done uh eight of these surgeries and i was like ninth or something or even you know really really low figures and he had done the most in australia so i was like well so he knew the frames to look

through to see it yeah okay yeah so yeah it was pretty easy yeah so that was before you won one yes so that was 2004 um so up until that point, just two kind of interesting markers. One is that you built a chip on your shoulder, not doubt, but a chip. And did I insert those words just now, or are those your words? I think you inserted them. Yeah, right. But did you have doubt? There was definitely doubt.

I guess when you – I think that the doubt was there, but that's what I had to work through to get my confidence up. And that was something that I used that doubt throughout my whole career. Look at that. What does doubt sound like to you? And what did it feel like it's it's feel wise it's like it's like this weird sort of anxiety um you know worry in a way but then once you start putting the pieces of the puzzle in place then you just start ticking off off questions and you start knocking those out.

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like a not sure if I can. And I really, were you trying to be the best or your best? I was trying to be my best. My best. Okay. Because I never thought I could beat those other guys. You really didn't. And you said, okay, well then, then I'm going to, I'm going to focus on being my best. And to do that, I need to do one, two, three, five, seven, 12 different things on a daily basis to put the plan together. Mick, knowing you, it's so clear when you say that, but at the same time, it's so refreshing to hear. It's super clear that, of course, you need a plan.

Of course, you need to make decisions that are going to line up for what you really want in your life, which you are committed to figuring out how to be your best in the ocean. And then you just back into it. Yeah. A lot of trial and error. Yeah. You know,

I heard this the other day is that it's a little bit like painting, like performance and high performance people. It's a bit like painting a canvas performance and high performance people. It's a bit like painting a canvas or painting on something or creating a sculpture is that you have an idea of what you want. And I imagine Michelangelo and David and, you know, had the same thing as he could see the sculpture inside of the stone. And then as he was chipping away, he's like, no, no, no, that's not it. That's not, that's not it. That's not it. I need to take more off here and more off there. And it's like a constant iteration of what it's not be matched up against what you want it to be. Yeah. Does

that sound right to you? Yeah. Yeah. So I guess in my, my way of doing it, it was, okay. I would, I would use pros and cons of like what worked, what didn't work. And I built myself a base of, okay, I know these things work, so I'll do those and then I might add one, two or three things over time and just keep an eye on how they worked. And if one works, then keep it it if one didn't work throw it and then if one was sort of half there i'll try it again so you're really iterating i mean that's the iteration process yeah right you wouldn't just kind of throw a bunch of stuff in and not know

what's creating impact like i did noise you did that once and things didn't go too well what are some of the things that we're talking about like concretely noise you did that once and things didn't go too well what are some of the things that we're talking about like concretely that you would stack on um it was sort of like if i if i knew like this was the checklist at the end it was if i knew my boards were right my body was right and I was calm, then everything would sort of just play out as I wanted. Board was right. Body was right. Mind is right. Meaning calm.

Yeah. And that's the word that you would use to articulate what the state you wanted to be in to access your artistry. Yeah. The state that I wanted to be in was calm and confident yeah those two yeah those two put together yeah it's that nexus right you know those those are so elusive aren't they yeah like they are tricky to find the two like you can get calm yeah right but then do you still have confidence and you can get confident but like when you get those two together which is

really mind and body you know the mind meaning what you say to yourself and the body following along. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Like, it was such a weird one. Like, I remember, you know, we've talked about it before, like what number you're at and stuff like that. That was always a big thing.

Like calculating. Yeah, trying to figure out exactly how to do it. How good do you think you got at finding five? Scale of one to ten. Explain what we're talking about. So, yeah. So, finding five was energy from one to ten. And then it's mindfulness in one to ten.

And where the cross is perfect is five. But mine was sort of, I had to tweak mine a little bit. Of course you did. Um, so my, I liked, I like to be around a seven.

Yeah. Yeah. A little bit of an edge. It just felt a little scratchy, little agitated. Yeah. And then that felt like an ideal state for you. Yeah.

But an eight, no good. Eight, no good. Nines, obviously. Yeah. Yeah. Fours, not switched on enough. Sleepy. Yeah. Just not enough. ideal state for you yeah but and eight no good eight no good nines obviously yeah fours not switched on enough yeah just not enough yeah did you ever find competitions where you're at like a twos and threes and fours yeah many times and it was it was like trying to figure out ways to build build yourself up especially especially when it gets to the end of the year and you're like

i just need like you've been going for six weeks or something. Away from home, six weeks, same suitcase. How do I get there? Yeah. And it's the same little tribe of folks, right? The small handful, the 32 surfers, is it? Yeah. Yeah.

My first start was 48 and then we dropped down to 32 yeah and then you know managers and some family members so it's a small tribe of a couple hundred folks probably yeah yeah including like coaches and yeah the the wsl producers probably more now everyone travels with their own entourage but it's changed a lot huh it has changed a lot it's um you know back when i first started you'd travel with other guys that you're competing against share cars share houses um when these days it's like everyone's you know pretty much by themselves and they've all got a coach they've all got a filmer they've all got someone to drive them around and and it is a team yeah it's a coach they've all got a filmer they've all got someone to drive them around and and it is a

team yeah it's a big they've got a team yeah they've got their physio they've got their coach they've got their physio sort of they just rely on the wsl but chris yeah proso and tim brown and um but yeah it's a um yeah it's a lot different what. What are the young athletes right now? Like you've been out of the game for, you retired how many years ago? Mentally retired? Not actually retired. April last year, 2017. Oh my God, it felt like it was longer. Yeah.

No, wait, wait, 2017? Yeah. That's two years. Wait, we're 19, dude. dude are we i don't even know it was 18 yes no no it was 2018 it was 2018 yeah okay oh that's right because you did one more i did two events you did two yeah you ended in bells yeah yeah yeah did you almost walk away with i got second you got second at bells oh my god like how fun was that one of your favorite waves being in the finals just the two of you out back could have been a whole lot of media i didn't want to do it why didn't you keep going because i don't want to so you left number two in the world

i think i was close out there yeah yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Unbelievable. Yeah. That doesn't happen often. Nah. You were ready. But I was done. Yeah. Yeah. I made the decision the year before. I remember the exact point.

I was sitting in a car park for four hours. Waves were firing. We're just waiting for the contest to start. And I'm just like, I could be doing way more fun stuff. That was the moment. That was the moment. So, okay. Mick, this is like, I think people have that little whisper, that thing in their head, in their heart, or their gut, whatever body part you want to snap it to.

And they don't follow it. So how did you follow and execute on it um i was probably different in a way to most athletes where i had half of 2016 off oh that's right yeah yeah i had a pretty big year in 2015, some personal things that I was dealing with. And I was pretty much done and flat. And so I had, yeah, half of 2016 off just to refill the tank. And so that initial fear of like pulling the trigger is like, I'm done. I did that knowing I could go back. That's right.

Yeah. So it wasn sort of, it wasn't as scary as what it normally is. It's interesting. Cause it's a little bit like an inoculation to something that you're afraid of. Like you get a little bit of the, the poison and then your body goes, Oh, I can deal with this. So you got a little bit of that time off. You came back. What happened in 17? How did how did you do um not that great it's probably my worst year yeah i think i got 11th or 12th oh that was the year i didn't even pay attention seriously you were that checked out yeah i was so checked out yeah um i had a good time so like outcome wise it wasn't good but quality of life wise i had a lot of i had a lot of

fun once i once i made that decision i had a lot of fun after that because i would like i would secretly tell different people in different locations and just tell them to keep it quiet and and but i going around all the people that i've met in these different places, I'll give them more quality of time rather than I'm just here for the contest, maybe catch up for dinner. Okay, I've got to go home and stretch, you know. Yeah, so relationships blossomed. Yeah.

Once that you, I don't know, managed internally that you weren't going to be, you weren't doing this for the outcome anymore. No. You, you you know as i said that out loud like i think i just inserted something in for you again i don't want to do that like because i don't know if you were ever doing it just for the outcome but the outcome was certainly important yeah it was it was you you'd be lying to yourself if you're not doing it for the outcome. You know, you don't put all that hard work in

if you don't believe you're going to get to the top, you know. When I think that was something that I always sort of struggled with, like, oh, I just want to have a fun year and just enjoy the year, but it wouldn't resonate with me. I would be like no you're either doing it full-on or don't do it at all yeah and so you wanted the outcome you wanted top of the podium i just wanted to do my best so i could sleep at night and not have all those ifs and buts okay so i get that intellectually which is and i agree with it

as an approach right like what else can you do other than get your shit together to be your very best what like really what else can you do you can i don't know me you could try to take out your competitors like with a big bat or something what was that tanya harding and you know like like you could do all that i guess but like it but worrying about what they're doing is just a disaster yeah right so okay so I agree with the approach but then I love to try to get right into the underneath here like what was it really about was it about being your best or podium it was being my best and if you did that you believe that you would podium yeah and at some point you turn the corner on that because when you're younger you didn't know if if you could even get on the podium whether

you were your best or they had a 75 day i knew i could get there but i just didn't know if i was walking away with that big trophy or just get the little one okay on like third second first like you knew you could podium yeah but not necessarily top yeah yeah because you had seconds yeah and thirds okay gotcha did something ever switch like maybe before you got the first what was a milestone let me let me wind this back was it the milestone winning a tour stop am i saying it right or the the world championship um it was weird like i guess the first time that i i like i won uh like a major event for me at the time was a winning a pro junior um and winning the one where everyone from around the world came to. So that was a really big one for me.

And then went on to another event down at Bell's and won that too as another pro junior. So that was a big stepping stone. Okay. How did that change you? How did they change your internal relationship with yourself and your craft? To be real honest honest i can't remember if yeah i know i as i was saying i was like i don't know if i could remember if you asked me that question but then if you made up the story though how do you think how if you did some

revision of history there it's weird it like if i think about events, like if I did, say in 2007 where I was like semifinals or better in every event, I knew I had the confidence and the ability to get those results. But then I had that doubt to start coming in. All right, when's the bad result going to come? Yeah. And then when it – I'm just getting by. I'm getting over it. It's going to happen.

Oh, man, if I don't get a win quickly, it's going to run out. Yeah. And then it did happen, but it was sort of – it was probably the best thing ever that did happen for me in that time of the year because it was like all right that weight's off my shoulders now the win yeah and no the the loss oh yeah like i had wins throughout the years but or throughout the year but it was just like i was always just non-stop just trying like just it felt like to me i was just working and i was just waiting for a breaking point

and then as soon as i lost it was just like this big way the shout is off all right i'm back to zero again and that underdog could start building up again so that that was sort of the way that i looked at it the more that i kept going win win win win win more that the doubt would come in as like all right how am i going to deal with this loss if it happens? And then once it happens, like, you know, sad for a few hours, and then you rebuild. If you could install like a belief system or a thought pattern, or, you know, just a way of thinking to someone that you love that you own, you know, I don't know who comes to mind. that that's not the important part of the question but like what would that thought pattern what would you want to

give them or help them reveal that's already inside them yeah it's funny like um i sort of from time to time get asked questions by younger guys and and and and you know give them tips and stuff like that. And sometimes I just want to go so deep with them and just get real deep with them. But they look at me as like, where are you going? So it's like, all right, pull the reins a bit and pump the brakes and just dumb it down a bit. Someone said to me, you can't feed steak to a baby no right so you got you got to mash it up somehow somehow yeah right yeah and

like literally that i think that that's that's an interesting way to think about mastery is that you know the full alphabet you can maybe even say it backwards and kind of invent some stuff that people didn't see before but expertise is just knowing knowing it, maybe seven eighths of it, or just knowing it forward and not backwards, so to speak. And then, I don't know, early stages when people are young, maybe they just know the A, B's and C's and the D, E and F's and they can't quite get past that. But that's working for them at some level, but not going to fully unleash, you know, what they have lying dormant no it's funny it's funny like you you see all these things and you see how talented these kids are and you know

and then yeah there's just one little thing that they just can't get over or or something like that and it's like well try this try this try this and i think that was sort of where maybe i was a little different like you know there's some athletes that don't like a lot of information i was totally different i wanted it all i would ask that many questions and um i would read and i would study other sports and and i just the more information was, was better. Even when I was going to compete, I was like, give me everything. And then I'll just take those little pieces of what I need. And I'll, if I need that other stuff, I'll just store it or I will just totally trash it. So it was just, yeah, it was, yeah, that's, that's the way I work. What were you trying to sort out looking back on your influential career?

Yeah. What, what is it that you were like really trying to sort out? Um, I guess, I guess we were talking before as you're young, you think there's one secret little thing. And so I'm just trying to, was always just trying to take a little diamond from every little person and just give it a go. I think that's the one thing is that the younger generation, they have to try these things, trial and error, and see how it works for them.

Like you can go and see anyone in the world and see the best coach in the world, see the best psych guy, see any of the best physio, but if you're not engaged or you don't believe in it, it's not going to work for you anyway. So it's about that athlete or that person, trial and error, and making sure that they're doing what they what's right for them finding master is brought to you by cozy earth over the years i've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep it starts with how we transition and wind down and that's why i've built

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regret did you have any of that stuff where it's like what have i done no you're clean yeah because you got that pre-experience and you knew because you listened to yourself yeah okay like the the first the first few months um in 2016 when i had the half year off, I was still in that mindset, oh, I'm missing an event. Like, you know, I had a lot of self-talk with myself, like, it's okay, it's okay, have a breather, have a breather.

Where the second time around, it was like, didn't even care. What was more rewarding for you? The the first championship something not even on a championship list that just really sticks out for you the second one the third one clarity of retiring properly it was all different i think i was in such different parts of my life yeah um that they they all were really big steps on who i am you know what walk walk through those three at least three different 2009 um i can do it yeah i did it yeah um so 2000 and 2007 was it was a build-up of a whole lot of hard work um you know i guess i i came on tour in 2002 and got fifth in the world

2003 fourth in the world and 2004 blew my hamstring off so i had that year out 2005 got third in the world wow and then 2006 i got third in the world again so i was like looking back um well if i went five four three three i guess i just skipped two and go to one and so that was that was my mindset. Did you really have that thought? Yeah. Oh, that's right. First year, I said 2009, but first year was 2007.

Yeah. And so I believed in myself. And up until 2006, I couldn't string two events together in a row. So my consistency was way out so i worked really hard on that 2006 and then from the back end of the year i did nothing worse than a fifth and i think i yeah one event and made two other finals as well. So I was like, okay, I'm ready for this now. Yeah. Where before that, I didn't feel like I was a world title contender or wasn't even close to the top two guys,

which at the time was the gnarliest rivalry ever in surfing. Was that? Kelly and Andy. Kelly and Andy. Yeah. Yeah, that was intense, wasn't it? Those two. It was so good.

You lost a good friend. Yeah. he was he was a great guy yeah and he passed away in what year 2010 2010 yeah you won in oh seven oh seven oh nine nine and 13 and 13 yeah and i haven't lost a good friend like i i really don't know what that's like i understand what it might be like you know from a compassion standpoint i don't want to be insensitive because it's such a important topic but how did you how'd you work through that um yeah it was it was super tough um because we were at an event too and that's right so and so it was sort of like i had i felt i had guys that i had to look out for and and look out make sure that they were okay because they were taking it like a lot hard like really really hard and and so i sort of in the looking back on it I looked at it as all right

you can you can be strong for someone else I hate I hate saying strong though it's it's it's like the worst thing ever like I guess I put my half of my emotions, just put it, put it to the side just for a second, just so I could look after these other people. And then when I had the time to go and have time to myself, that's when I dealt with it. Yeah. Yeah. And that's, that's how I've sort of, that's how I've dealt with a lot of death that I've been involved in, know you you understand

death way better than I do like you've you've been you've had lots I guess it's fair to say lots of death in your life you know loved ones think about the most intimate relationships I have, the stuff that I didn't get to say or do properly, you know? And like, for me, that's the thing is it's like the unfulfilled, I don't know, like the, the deep unfulfilled connection that if it were to end now, I'd be like, Holy, and it's going to end. And I even practice, I don't know if I ever told you this, but I practice like after we see each other, like, I'm going to look at you in your eyes. I'm going to look for the little white spot in the color of your eyes. I've ever told you this and I'm practicing in that moment. Like I might not ever see you again yeah so eye contact for me when we leave is like i see you and thank you

you know and so i'm practicing it but it doesn't mean that um i know what i'm talking about yeah look i i i guess that's for for you saying that i sort of look at it in a totally different way. Okay. I look at it as, you know, when, yeah, sure, when you're with that person, like I don't think you're going to think tomorrow's the next day. I think you just, you be your genuine self with that person each and every time. And, you know, some days there are times you've got to put them in check and other times there's days where everything's going really well but when you say put them in check you mean put the person in check no well you know sometimes people are idiots you gotta be honest yeah right okay um but probably one of my flaws being too honest but um it's it's um so that's the way i look as as long

as you're honest every time with that person i don't i don't look at oh this could be the last time i see this person so when you look back at your relationships that you've lost, you want to know that you are honest with them. You are genuine with them as consistently as you could. Yeah. That's the mark of honoring the relationship. Yeah. What gets in the way of you being, let's just use the word genuine,

because you really are that. what how do you get in your way how do i get in my way yeah um when i get too busy is that it like saying yes to too much yeah yeah yeah and yeah you just have to my god rush around and yeah i hate russian yeah you know what i don't like is the feeling that i get a lot, which is any given day I feel like I'm not able to live to the commitments that I wanted to happen that day. Yeah. Like the things that I said I was going to get to or that I wanted to make happen or that I wanted to see or call or do. At the end of the day, it's like, and it sounds like I'm a tormented person. I'm really not tormented. But there's that thing like damn i said yes too much and i didn't i need to be better at

no yeah it's hard to say no though well maybe for you and i i don't know like i think some people are good at it like they're just more disciplined i found a new way of doing it which is do you tell so so once i retired i did not want to have a schedule so for the rest of the year i did not want to have a schedule so people would be like oh can you come to this thing or do you want to show up for dinner or and i was just like well not being like rude or whatever, but it was just like, Hey, if I'm there, I'm there. If I'm not, I don't want your feelings to be hurt.

And I'll be, I'll be somewhere else. You would say that to them though. So you were upfront and they understood what you were working out. Um, well, they did or they didn't. I was either there or I wasn't.

Oh my God. I love this. But that's how you'd say it to people. Yeah. And if you didn't feel like getting off the couch, you just didn't get off the couch. No. And if you were with somebody and you didn't want to leave

for a dinner commitment or whatever, you just did. Yeah. But a lot of the times, like, if it was just, like, dinners or something, I'd go anyway. Yeah. But it was more the fact of like locking in dates and stuff and i'm just like to do that like if i wanted to get on a plane say if i'm sitting here with you now and i know there was a swell or something happening i just wanted to be able

to have that freedom within myself where i wasn't fighting with myself to just go. That's it. Yeah. That's awesome. Because I was on such a gnarly schedule for so long, I just had to have that freedom for myself. At first pass, it looks like an amazing life. Travel the world, surf the best breaks on the beach, you know, but what gets missed is away from home, out of suitcases, you know, the same crew over and over again and the stress of am i on am i not on am i going to make it am i not going to make it you know and there's lots

of stress in high performing sports right i don't know i think that elite athletes are better at stress than most people because you're more familiar with it would do you agree with that yeah yeah i just felt like i was i was always two or three steps ahead of where i actually was what does that mean just because you just had to plan your year so much oh yeah so you're always looking to structure the next three months or four months or something like that yeah you're booking flights you're organizing boards you're oh i gotta get into the gym you know it just just felt like you're booking flights you're organizing boards you're oh i gotta get into the gym you know it just just felt like you're always playing catch up yeah and so yeah once i

once i retired i wasn't playing catch up anymore i love it what what do people not know about elite athletics or from a surfing perspective what what what would people not quite get um on tour there's a lot of downtime a lot of just gray area where just nothing happens which is difficult for many people to fill that time with yeah you're just sitting and waiting and what would you do sometimes nothing you know just chit chat yeah you never know exactly what day you're on you never know yeah exactly what time you're going to be on like there'll be days where they'll be like, all right, we'll start the morning off. There's meant to be waves coming.

Start the day off with a 7 a.m. call. The waves haven't shown up. Let's start 9 a.m. call. Okay. 12 o'clock call. 3 o'clock call. And so it's like your flight is delayed all the time. And you don't know exactly when it's going to come in.

So you can't plan around it no and there's stress involved in waiting because like in this analogy you've got to get somewhere yeah i used to have so many friends just just hate on me because it's like i can't go anywhere you know but can't we just go down the beach and do this and that no you can't no because you're a professional because i'm here i'm waiting what is the dark side of sport what are the costs of pushing all in or chipping all in towards your ambitions something that i'm sort of learning more about now being on the other side is losing your identity in there you know building your life and um making yourself worth of what result you get or what contract you get or something like that and and i think that's when especially especially if I put someone in my position where they are now, that's the hardest part of stepping away.

It's like, what am I going to do? Who am I? Who am I? Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, I was banging around with that concept that I've been fortunate enough to learn from. There's not many, there's nobody like you, but folks that are crowned the position being the best in the world where they say, listen,

when I pull back, I was so committed to that. I needed to do something to be someone. And at some point they're right now they're flipping the model. You're flipping it as well, saying, no, no, you need to be someone and let the doing flow from there yeah right yeah you're nodding your head like yeah that's exactly what it is do you think you could have done that the other way while you're in it in the thick of it or maybe you did actually i was i was trying a lot i i tried through throughout my career i was always trying that juggling act of when I go to work, that's what I do. I go to work. But when I'm away from work, then I'm with whoever I am in that room and engaged.

And it took a lot of practice. That is the practice of being present right there. Yeah. I don't know how to. I think that thing about balance is a complete mythical ridgeline what's balance what yeah right i mean what are you balancing on a surfboard maybe for you yeah but like there's no balance i i don't know i didn't have it i don't have it and i'm tired of trying to figure that out yeah so i'm just trying to work on being right where my feet are yeah as often as i can that's

for all you can be yeah yeah i was i i guess you know that saying being in the moment of course yeah i i finally figured it out i was doing some um underwater breathing um training i've seen online you've been doing a bunch of it yeah i was like yeah when i was going through events and and and i finally figured it out i was on the bottom of the pool i had no air and if you use your mind you just start like gulping like and once you calm your mind and just be where you are you don't drown so that's that's how i found being in the moment that you needed the pressure of almost drowning yeah to get you to that insight yeah which is okay i can just actually control my mind to be here and my body will

respond yeah jeez yeah i gotta tell you like in a lot of ways you and i have a very similar approach i had to go yeah you we talked about it where i did the stand up paddle from catalina yeah yeah and my i told my mentor about it afterwards and um he's known me since i was like 14 or 15 and he says you go I was telling him, like, I was delirious and I was hallucinating. And it was mile 27 of 31. And I stopped moving. Did I tell you this part? So mile 27.

It's the ultimate joke. I can kind of see land. It's another, you know, four or five miles, which is that at the end of a quote unquote type of marathon thing. It's like those are hard yards, but they're hard miles. And the ocean opened up and I got caught in a 3.2 mile an hour rip head on. And I was doing exactly 3.2 miles an hour. So I didn't move for 47 minutes at mile 27.

And I ran out of hydration. I ran out of fuel. I ran out of everything. Full hallucinations, delirium. I couldn out of hydration. I ran out of fuel. I ran out of everything, full hallucinations, delirium. I couldn't think straight. There was no chance I could do anything complicated in my mind, and it was literally one stroke at a time. That was all I could do,

and I needed everything to focus on where to even put the oar, and I didn't break out of it. I'm not trying to say there's anything strong about me in those moments. I think that like the ocean just turned and I just kind of was on the edge of it enough that that's what the breaking out of it was. Anyway, long story short that I was telling my mentor about it and he goes, Mike, I got to play something back to you and I'm going to play it back to you now. You needed to almost drown yourself to get to know yourself.

I need to go get like in the middle of shark alley in a pit, you know you needed to almost drown yourself to get to know yourself right i need to go get like in the middle of shark alley in a pit you know like to really knock off all of the calcium that i built up around like who i really was yeah i wasn't that gnarly i was in like a yeah it wasn't even two meters deep well Okay. In fairness, shallow blackouts are some of the most dangerous blackouts, right? Yeah, I guess so. Yeah. Okay. In fairness. Yeah.

But to your point, like you had to have that pressure. Yeah. That feeling like you were going to die, like drown, that to say, why don't I just settle in? Yeah. Be right here. Yeah. Okay. So it's over said that surfing is like the

wonderful philosophy for life every wave is different it's unique you have to be attuned to it fill in the blanks what how do you think about surfing as a metaphor for life um for me it's a it's a healing place it's's like the ocean is such a healer. And I say that because when you go surfing, it's very, very rare. It doesn't matter what mood you are on the beach, but when you go surfing, even if you have a bad surf, you come in feeling just that little bit better but then there's other times where you can just get so lost and just you know that's where all the all the the hippie sort of style you know you start seeing rainbows oh that's a pretty sunset

you're in clarity you're talking about like lost in the moment you're lost in the process of what you're doing yeah lose track of time yeah your actions and awareness merge in a way that is like with a sense of wow yeah yeah but yeah and and for me it's it's that one place where I can just get away from the world and I'm just concentrating on what I'm doing at the time, you know, even if it's, you know, subconscious sometimes of just paddling or something like that. But it's just I'm concentrating on where am I going to be for that next wave or where I'm going to be once I'm on the wave.

You know, it's just that it just switches everything off. or where I'm going to be once I'm on the wave. You know, it's just that it just switches everything off. What percentage of the time are you in flow state where it is complete syncopation? Honestly, it doesn't happen that often. You think you are, but you're not. And as soon as you think you are, you're definitely not. What percentage of this conversation have you been like, okay, I've lost track of time, you know, like that type of thing.

And maybe it's a zero. Maybe it's like, no, I'm actually working. I've got a nice schedule. Not fair. Not fair. That's so good. Oh, God. But do you find your you're in flow more often now or did you need that stress and pressure and stakes and risk and deep challenge because all of those are entryways into flow state i probably uh i was probably more mindful of it when I was competing, but I still get in there, still get to that point.

No, you do. Yes. You still get there. Okay. Yeah. Like I had a surf and it was my brother's birthday. I was on the search and it was just one of those days where everything just happened and didn't even think about it.

And it was awesome. You know, biggest't even think about it and it was awesome you know biggest smile just losing it it was so fun what are you searching for now the search the search talk about the search for a minute and then like what are you searching started off with what are you searching for what am i searching for i know i asked you that a little bit ago kind of like what were you searching for then the quick simple answer is just new experiences you know i used to be so control freak of how i wanted my days to work around um events and you know where i wanted to be and stuff like that where now i can be a passenger and just enjoy the ride and and um you know let other people take control and just see where i end up yeah so that challenge is a

whole different type of risk yeah vulnerability yeah are you better at vulnerability i am i think i am you've been practicing hopefully it's paid off put me on the street in the nude and see how we go no no let's not do that no but yeah i feel like i can i can let go like especially especially with the trips that I'm doing if I'm not in charge of the trip I can just all right you just tell me where I need to be and when like I've been on trips where I don't even know where the airport is it's been awesome just putting so much trust into someone else yeah okay so talk about Rip Curl the search is that your only sponsor at this point i don't say that in a bad way but no i'm still sponsored by all the same art so you can all of your brands wow how did you do that i don't know i just you're a legend that's why basically

yeah no but that's really so do you have i don't know if you if this is not okay to talk about even but like some people have lifetime contracts and is that kind of what you're doing or is it year to year and with rip girl this year i signed a 10-year contract look at that yeah this year you signed it yeah oh yeah you got the better end of that deal yeah no i'm joking yeah yeah that's awesome no and it's for the search right it's for the search but then um you know you can only plan however many years in advance um so yeah we sort of just they just said they wanted me around and be a part of the company for at least the next 10 years so um so that's pretty special and the search is three one a year three years i don't know it depends it depends on how many

how many places we can find um is that is that the project where it's like you find new places to go based on like i don't know if it's google earth or whatever the analytics are the we just yeah we just try and just try and find ways that have never or i won't say never because these places um have been seen and stuff like that but they're not your everyday places that's what we look for so you you've surfed where alaska right you've surfed canada you've served in canada you haven't done canada not for surfing but ireland island um yeah done you know different parts of africa um kind of untouched stuff relatively untouched yeah you know if you have to take a four-wheel drive or something and get off the road then that's great but the search is the the epitome of the rip curl search is trying to

find uncharted waters and then you film it yeah and so is that the business model that makes it run like they tell the story tell the story of you exploring yeah and it can go when it goes bad it goes back quickly in those types of places because they're so remote um yes and no yeah do you have sometimes it comes out a really good story you know i as you know i grew up surfing where there was always a joke that when the trip didn't start until something breaks yeah you know until something goes wrong yeah you know there is that appreciation that it's an adventure for sure do you have that insurance i was just asked this the other day where uh like it's i don't even know the name of it's like a helivac type of insurance and i remember at red bull a long time ago a lot of the guys did have it yeah yeah and is that something that you would take on

these or is that overkill do you think that's overkill for you yeah just an extra person that you don't need oh so you have to travel with that person i think i think sometimes you do oh i didn't know that yeah and then other times they'll come and get you yeah yeah i have some friends that will come and get me you got helis everywhere don't you yeah i wish yeah i'm like the poor like yeah i'll walk if I have to. No. You'll walk it up? Yeah. No, come on now.

No. Like the places that, as I said, the places that we're going, they are, you can't find them. You cannot find them? But it's just, but you can. Oh, you can find them. It's just that as surfers, I feel like we're a bit of a sheep. Yeah. So if you see a bank out the front of the easiest car park that's you know

half as good as one that's two miles down the road you're just going to go that one even if there's more people it's those other people that go yeah yeah i'm happy to go for a walk you are yeah you zig when they zag yeah yeah what are the challenges in humanity right now what are you seeing the main challenges for humans um i'll leave one off i already kind of hinted at one like this balance idea i think that that's a i think that's a deep challenge for humanity right now 24 7 we have access to everything being able to figure out how to be where your feet are this balance thing in life, is real hard. Yeah.

What are you seeing in some of the other ones? Yeah, that's a pretty big one. Yeah, probably the things that I'm sort of looking at is obviously the Earth and what we're doing to the Earth. I think that's a real big thing um you know i sort of feel you've made some real efforts there try yeah but even then i feel like i haven't even dipped my toe in the water i still feel like there's so much more we can do do you want to talk about the wildlife project yeah the wild ark one that's fun yeah um you know their their mission is if you save the top 100 species in the world then the rest of the world will flow uh and the way they do that is by you know trying to

save these pockets of the world and keep them untouched. So probably the biggest one that I was involved in was a gaming farm in South Africa and they bought the gaming farm and once they ripped down the gates it went straight on to Kruger National Park and within the month the whole landscape had changed ripped down the gates and went straight on to Kruger National Park.

And within the month, the whole landscape had changed of this whole gaming farm. And it was like, you know, you had everything, lions, elephants, giraffes, everything. They just watched them just cross over the fence line. It was incredible. And the idea behind, is it called the wildlife project wild arc it's wild arc here we go and so if you they identified the land and on that land um if whatever they've identified if they can secure that land then a hundred of the most significant species would survive and then from that we've got the survivability of the planet increase the survivability yeah of the planet like a big

one right at the moment is um up in alaska i was gonna say that's the one yeah and you think of the biggest like the most prominent animal there you'd probably think a bear or something like but it's actually seven because it's the salmon that feeds the whole ecosystem there. And, you know, us humans wanting our greed and they want to build a huge coal mine up there, pebble mine, and, yeah, take out some of the most pristine parts of earth. It just makes you just go, why like what are we doing yeah you know i think um i camped on the land that they're trying to get we weren't meant to but

we did and you know walk out of your tent and you're hearing bears and wolves in the middle of the night and you're scared to go out by yourself so you wait for your friend to wake up just the one that's a little slower than you it's a bad joke yeah but there's like bear patties on the ground or you can eat blueberries off the ground and then go fishing in the little river and it was just incredible it was so awesome and you're one of the ambassadors for the program yeah that's an awesome one are you do you have other ones that you're part of as well um i sort of just concentrated that one on the on the wildlife and then other other projects or other sort of things i'm ambassador for is um the starlight foundation what is that starlight foundations um it's sort of like make-a-wish foundation um where but they build, the Starlight Foundation build these starlight rooms

in children's hospitals so when the kids are in hospitals, they can have fun. So they've got PlayStations, they've got games, they've got live interactive TV every afternoon and they play games and stuff like that. And so their initial thing is we just want to put smiles on sick kids faces and it's it's so fun and so you're part of you're an ambassador as well yeah ambassador for that so taking taking um my part of it is um every now and then do like a hospital visit but go and do um you know take kids surfing

as you know their wish um and yeah it's fun i took one one kid surfing when he was uh halfway going through chemo and i saw him i think it was two or three years later, totally healed. Got to chat with him. And yeah, it's just cool to see how they go on. There's something really important. And it sounds so, well, I don't know, like trite, if you will, like do something good for the planet and others. But it doesn't come down to that. Like at some level, it's like, and this quote doesn't get, I don't know where the source is and the internet won't help me here because it's like all over the shop, whether it's Emerson or Picasso or Shakespeare.

But the idea is the meaning of life is to figure out your gifts and purpose in life is sharing them. And so whatever those gifts are, and yours is obviously, you know, the love of people, love of the ocean, you know, like helping. And if you don't give it away, like you're kind of just hoarding it. And so it's not like, I don't know. I get really agitated by the conversation of just self-improvement. Like it's just about you getting better. Well, okay, for what aim so you can have more money bigger trophies like for what aim are we talking about and i don't know i don't want

to be in those relationships anymore i don't want to be in those conversations where people are just trying to make themselves better for their glory and i don't know yeah i I sort of look at it as when you're, when you're helping someone else, you learn more about yourself. And so, you know, that's why it does come full circle, doesn't it?

You know, there's an argument, a philosophical position that there's no such thing as altruism, you know, kindness for the sake of kindness. It doesn't exist because you're always a beneficiary of that act yeah all those people that are just too kind and they sort of irritate you take a stand damn it it's not always nice just say no yeah that is me actually i'm not saying

no enough goodness it is awesome to see you thriving like man like and and and i say that you're neat you just did your acl yeah that's fine that's another learning curve it is yeah this is the first acl you've had first knee i've ever done yeah so this is like yeah my second major injury so hamstring this one yeah everything else your back was done up a little bit though wasn't it yeah it's scoliosis you know live with scoliosis my whole life and you manage that with fitness yeah yeah it's in the little t-section my t-spine is tight but but you're you're just you're just crooked yeah mine's just bent it's amazing, like, seriously, you're the most significant surfer for the last, one of the most significant surfers over the last 15 years.

And, you know, like if a doctor were to select you at an early age, they'd say, oh, you know what, this one's got scoliosis, probably not going to be the best in the world at a very difficult sport. I said that about usain bolt too they did he's got the same he's got he's got scoliosis and i did not know yeah yeah the same thing how did that affect you growing up or maybe it was like not an issue at all um i didn't even know i had it until i was 20. Oh. And then my back seized up. And that's when I met Chris Prosser for the first time.

There we go, Prosser again. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, so that's sort of, that's where I started learning about that. But that was where, it was a thing where I started learning how to look after my body a bit better. Yeah. Instead of just, yeah, let's go to the gym and do this and that. Yeah, it's sort of more functional movement. being your best in an alpha competitive environment, what are you most joyful about or satisfied with or pleased about?

I don't know the right word, but like when you look back, what is the part where you're like, that was cool. That was amazing. Yeah. There's a few different things. Um, you know, I can i can put my head on the pillow every night and just be comfortable with what i've done and achieved or didn't achieve um and then now you're saying you can do that now i i felt like i could do that at the time at the time too At the time, too, yeah. Like every night, like I did my job today. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I didn't have a lot of ifs or buts or that going through my – I was just like, well, it happened or it didn't, so just move on.

And then I sort of had this question just the other day, actually. I was just at a Ripco conference and they're like what was your your pinnacle event and it was probably um 2016 jay bay um you know it was the year after the the shark attack and god how do we not talk about the shark i know we hinted at it but yeah it was after after that and you know there's so much media hype and i went there early just to escape the media so i i felt comfortable with myself at the break and because the shark attack well just i was i was comfortable with it you were okay with it yeah but i just wanted to make sure that i was super comfortable in um you know being able to compete because I felt I had unfinished business there. Were you in the finals? Yeah.

When you got attacked? Yeah. It was the final. It was the final. It was you and? Julian. Julian Wilson, yeah. Yeah.

So, yeah. And so I felt like. You did, literally. Yeah. So, yeah. And you know what? You were not mad or pissed or bitter. No.

It wasn't any of that. No. It was just – yeah, it was just – I guess it was just something that happened in life and you had to – I had to figure out ways to deal with it and also be okay you know be okay to go surfing again was it back to the big t and small t or no t at that time it was a really big t it was a big yeah yeah i changed a lot of things um around that like you know you're talking earlier about um you know looking people in the eye like this could be the last time i saw him mine was totally different it's like when i see people and i really like them i'll give them a really big hug and i'll squeeze them let them know I'm there yeah right yeah yeah and so it's it's now it's

a subconscious thing but when it like in those first sort of few months that was a big thing for me well even when we saw each other like we hadn't seen each other for years and I was in the middle of a I wanted to plan the way that we're going to see each other like in a really meaningful way and I'm in the middle of an argument on a conference call. Yeah. But you're still smiling. It was because of you. But the hug, even in that, you cut right through it.

Even in the midst of that kind of tense moment I was in, the hug just cut right through it. I don't even know if you noticed it or know that I noticed it. I thought you were just on one of those calls where you're just waiting for someone to say something you know i mean no no no yeah just trying to get your cable put on no no it was not that at all but classic okay so that was t that was a big t and one of the ways that sounds like you work through it is that you changed from a gratitude appreciation standpoint, your relationships with others.

And if I had to make it up, it was because you felt like you had a second chance to do better. Um, wasn't so much a second chance. Yeah. It was just, I just had more time. More time. Yeah. What was the shark doing in your mind?

I think he was going for my board. Yeah. Because it, like, the last thing I saw, like, there's a whole different story, but it could take a while. But the last thing I saw, was just the my board was stuck on its fin just sailing off into the sunset and and i was just like i'm out of here and just started swimming swimming swimming but then i had to stop because i was like if i keep swimming and i don't see this thing it's just going to grab my legs and i'm i'm properly done and so i had to stop and turn i'm like all right it's so

you looked for the predator yeah at that moment yeah what an amazing kind of response it probably wasn't the smartest but um i don't know okay so is it um one of the things we know about psychology is that asking people to talk about a traumatic event can be re-traumatizing so i don't i'm not interested in re-traumatizing you but i am if um if you want to talk about it like i'd love to talk about it but not at the expense of re-traumatizing and it's just yeah as i said i've dealt with it you've dealt with it yeah and what does that mean i've dealt with it that means that i've changed the way i think about who i am um no not really i think it's it's like i spoke to a lot of people like as i said i always ask questions and um and i spoke to

um people in in different worlds and and that had dealt with those sort of things and and it's sort of and i've been through situations that were really traumatic for me anyway so i sort of had the tools there i just had to just you know figure out how to how to lay the platform and and the easiest way to talk about it is i sort of had three different stories you had three yeah well so the way that i'll tell the story okay yeah so if i was just passing someone in the street they would just get nothing they would just be like yeah whatever hi see ya and then um you know media you would sort of break it down a little bit more and just sort of, you know, tell a little bit of a story. And then for people that I love and trusted, I'll tell them the whole thing.

Or if I felt comfortable enough, the more comfortable I get. And so that's why I said I dealt with it and I've relived it. What a brilliant strategy, first of all. And you would recommend, everyone's got a different process, right? So there's not just one, like you said earlier, sentence number one, there's no trick to any of this life stuff. But you would recommend that, one, that strategy worked for you. Yes. To have almost a cordoned off, yeah, it's like, okay, people i don't know it's like yeah that was crazy

or whatever you would say just a big wall yeah big wall and so that and it was protecting you from having to share something you didn't want to share and to go somewhere with somebody you didn't want to go there with yeah and and because I didn't know the people, I guess it was I was protecting myself because I didn't trust that if I went down that path and I wasn't, you know, I became very, very vulnerable, then they wouldn't be able to look after me. So that's why I just put that wall up. Brilliant. Yeah.

And then with media, it was a little bit more. I let him in a little bit because I'm interested in the story. Yeah, right. But you still were protecting, taking care of yourself. It's a better way to say protecting, I guess, right? Yeah, it sort of lowered the shutters a little bit. Yeah. Why give them more?

Oh, it wasn't so much just media in itself. It was just people that. It was a middle tier, a massive i sort of just put media in there because uh yeah then yeah yeah people that i i i love or i felt like i trusted then i'll tell them the full story and that was you working it out allowing yourself to feel again yeah what was happening and make sense of the story yeah okay so that is actually um there's really good science to what you just described and that is the science slash art of working with somebody that has gone through big t even small t and that's a substitute for trauma right and what And what ends up happening, we think, and this is going to sound a little woo-woo like

out there, but what we think is happening is that there's a recalibration. So let's say I'm sharing something that's emotional and I'm in that state and I trust you and I know that you're not judging and critiquing me and you're on the other side of it and we're just a few feet apart, if you will, and you're holding and maintaining integrity. And I'm kind of pulling apart a little bit or fraying at the edges of difficult emotions that there becomes a recalibration. And in that recalibration, I become more whole by telling that story with somebody that is not, has a hidden agenda or is, has an ulterior motive. It's a really powerful thing that you just described. And did you sort that out? Or did you know that that was a best practice? Yeah. But like, did you sort that out? Because we never,

we never talked about this. No, not so much. The strategy, I should say. The strategy was something that you helped me with. I had other people help me with. But it was for when I lost my first brother. Because for a long, long time, for a good 10 12 years I had a big wall up and no one could get through I couldn't get through and I didn't know it was there and you know that's as we were talking about earlier like being strong like because I

was a 17 year old kid people like like oh be strong be strong and i was like okay that's what you've got to do yeah and that's what men do yeah and so i put up all these barriers and i was even just yeah i was too strong for not only people like trying to get in but i was too strong for myself to let myself in and so it was yeah just trying to break those once i figured that out um just breaking down those walls and and yeah um yeah just figuring out how to deal with it you know so so we've been talking i don't know uh hour and 20 minutes i think that this is what you just said i'm not i don't want to put light on anything else you said earlier that was either funny or serious but what you just said is i didn't know myself and i just put walls

up and you're one of the best in the world the courage to take a look at that and face like that strategy and to begin to do it differently. That's pretty significant. That is a significant challenge that I think many of us, you know, we all have blind spots right there with the rest of every human like maybe less the Dalai Lama like we have blind spots and to one to want to look at them as one thing and then to get to the point where you actually do something about it which is the work you've done I'm telling you make it's remarkable oh geez man yeah thanks way to make it light dude but okay so but let's go back to almost the first time we met to now yeah the difference between who you are oh i'm a lot weirder but isn't it like i hope that i've had the same growth arc that you've had

you know like man i think you i think you've passed me up you've laughed me a few times on this one but wow you've done some incredible work yeah look i guess it's funny like you get people like oh how do you stay so positive and this and that it's not every day like that you know you've got to do work it's like anything else and um thing comes back to the very point where we started is it doesn't matter what you do you've got to put in work are you working to be happy i don't get that from you yes is that what you're working on now it is that's the work yeah like i've seen the bottom of the barrel i've like not so much in a financial state or you know i'm pretty lucky there but no you're not an emotional state yeah i i've seen the bottom of the barrel which means to you is

that like i was it's dead empty yeah dead empty that's right yeah yeah like i got to the end of 2015 and that's that's why i had to take half a year off i got to the end and i had nothing i had nothing to give myself had nothing to give other people i was just dead empty and um so yeah that was sort of once i i realized that it was like all right how are we going to fill this tank back up yeah and so that's why i went and had a lot of fun yeah god bless it do you think you had a choice to go to that place like the the emptiness or was it was it some sort of thing that was happening based on, and I'll stop there. Were you making choices that were leading you down to that severely depleted emotional place? Yes and no.

Some were out of my control. Yeah. And some were conditions that were hard. Yeah. And some were. It was just, yeah, it was just a whole, it was just a collaboration of when everything comes together, it came together. It blew up. Oh, my God.

Oh, God. I love, I am way too dramatic in this conversation because you're like dude it was just bad yeah it was real bad but um that's how cool to laugh about it now yeah to look back and yeah well if you can't laugh yourself then who can you laugh at you know I guess everyone else but no one really appreciates it I laugh at everyone else too so yeah but yeah it's uh it was yeah it was it was a bad place but i i guess i was just lucky that i had great family great friends and great people that looked out for me to to just help me get through those trenches when when i needed help and I would say that they were there your community was present for you because you invested so much into your community you know that's kind of

unfortunately the quid pro quo but it wasn't like hey I'm going to be nice to people today because one day I'm going to need them it's just that your genuine natural way like your community was there for you yeah and i hate asking people for things even when i did my knee i couldn't even walk or or get to the fridge i was like no i'll get it all right back to the shark yeah what was the shark doing he was it was yeah i feel he's going for my board yeah yeah it wasn't he wasn't trying to eat you he was just i don't i personally don't think He wasn't trying to eat you? He was just trying to check? I personally don't think that they're trying to eat a person. I think they're, like when surfboards are involved, I feel like they're going for surfboards.

To check it out? Like it looks like a seal? I don't think it's a fish or whatever. Did it take a bite? No. No. Did the classic, you know breach i think it freaked itself out when it got its um got its the leg rope caught in its mouth and i think it freaked out that's when you

got hit by the tail yeah hit me in the tail and then and then it broke the leg rope, but it came back around and it bounced off my chest. And that's why I say it was going for my board because it looked at my board and took my board off. Did you see it? No, I just heard a splash. And that was one thing that was really traumatic for me for a long time, even still today. If I hear a splash behind me, I'm like, what is that?

Yeah. And like, like I told a couple of friends and I would be surfing with them and they would, towards the end, like they would start playing jokes about it and start splashing behind me. Not funny. No. Funny, not funny no funny not funny at your expense but i always did that to people too yeah you know grab them on the ankle so it's probably just karma coming at me um but um yeah i don't know where i'm going with that now but um yeah that was one thing that I had to deal with.

But seeing sharks, totally fine. You're fine seeing it. Yeah. I think you and I were on a surf trip when we had to get out of the water. That was the first time I ever jet skied. Not jet skied. What do you call it when you get whipped in by a ski? Oh, when we're stepping off.

Yeah. That was the first time. Do you remember that little… Lennox, I mean. Where was it? Lennox. Yeah. That was the first time. Do you remember that little... Where was it? Lennox? Yeah. It was like, I don't know what the break was, but it was almost like a little jetty. Yeah. Not the main head.

Oh, we were at Ballina. Yeah. Yeah. That is shocking, right? No one told me. Yeah. But we had to get out of the water. Yeah.

Don't worry. I've had to a few more times since then. Seriously? Yeah. That's Don't worry. I've had to a few more times since then. Seriously? Yeah, that same spot. And so you have no, you have, like, you see him and you're cool. Totally fine. You just get out. Yeah.

Right? Yeah. I guess it's, you know, as surfers, you're still like, oh, don't be soft. Or, you know, like, it's not going to get you. Like, or you have that sense. It's like, nah, I'll just get through this. I'll get through this. Where now it's like, if I have that sense, I'm like, yep. That's what I wanted to ask you about because people that are abducted or jumped or something like traumatic like that is that many of them report back like, I had a sense, but I didn't want to be socially awkward, so I didn't scream.

Or I just thought that I was being weird when really when I look back, I knew that guy that got in the elevator was going to fill in the blank. And so I wanted to talk. I've had that sense in the water, but I just, I always say to myself, like, I'm just freaking myself out. There's, there's nothing out here. Like,

come on, dude. And I don't act on it. No different than the person on the street that felt weird about walking past the van. You know what I mean? And someone gets sucked into the van. Like,

and I'm, I'm not trying to be cavalier. I'm trying to make a point that, um, I ignore that. And when I'm listening to you now, I'm like, why do I do that? And I also think if I, yeah, and I, it's been successful so far, but at the same time, like, I've ignored it in the past, like since then, you know,

if the waves are really that good, but if we always listen to that little fear thing, then we'd never do anything no so like can you help me understand that because okay we can be the scientist here we can say to get good at anything human performance you got to push against the edges which means getting uncomfortable being i gotta get in fear zones and figure it out. At the same time, like when I feel that thing, I don't always act on it. Yeah. Well, yeah, I'm a big believer in the getting out of your comfort zone.

Yeah, of course. Maybe as I'm talking and you're looking at me like I'm nuts, but these are two different things. Oh, yeah. They're totally two different things. Yeah. Okay. So the first one is like a purposeful uncomfortableness. Yeah.

And the second is an intuition of danger. Yeah, I think it comes down to confidence in yourself in a way. Like, yeah, I've got this. Like, I know I'm uncomfortable, but I've got this. Or, you know, sometimes you might not be that confident and just like, yeah, not today. Yeah. I'm just going to go in. So that's how I look at it. You might have a whole lot of different ways to look at it, but that's,

that I think it just comes down to confidence. Okay. Let's wrap this up, dude. We're going to go to dinner and I'm looking forward to more. And so last couple of quick hits um why is kelly so good kelly slater 11 time champ if you if there's a word i'm gonna give you a bunch of little things here with just one word or two words whatever um yeah i think it's it's i don't know it it's just this competitiveness i was gonna everything in everything everything pool billards pool i'm just saying like in things not things random outside of yeah yeah yeah um so

he doesn't turn it off he's world-class at competing all the time to be the best yeah and you are even in conversation sometimes and you're world-class at trying to be your best yeah both worked yeah different ways different ways different costs yeah different challenges yeah and the irons he was he had a fire in him that would just burn like Like, it was, yeah. It was like sort of, it's like a bonfire, actually. Trying to contain a bonfire in a house. Joel Parkinson.

He flows better than anyone on this earth I know. On and off water? Yes. Very cool. He's a jedi is he yeah nothing ever bothers him awesome yeah okay um who else has won in recent over the past 15 years there's only like five of you guys um medina medina is gabriel Medina he is he's a lion when it comes to competing a lion yeah

lion yeah John John Florence just he's sort of like a like an oceanic wizard in a way, the way he reads the ocean. Yeah.

Yes. He sees things that no one sees. He does. He draws different lines. Yeah. Yeah. But he sees different things. You just see him and he never,

he never seems like he's in a rush. He's just, it's uncanny it's yeah like he especially now that him and him and gabe are going to be fighting each other for world titles and for the foreseeable future yeah you're still you're still such opposite ends of the spectrum you and kelly so really opposite ends oh you're looking at me like i'm i think we're both competitive so it's all looking at that oh yeah okay so you're saying even more i was going with the nature of competitiveness okay both competitors you're about competing to be your best working your ass off like for that and he's about being the best yeah right yeah okay and then so you're about competing to be your best working your ass off like for that and he's about being the best yeah right yeah okay and then so you're saying even more dramatic and extreme is wizardry versus a lion sounds like it's witches in warcraft or whatever like that's cool yeah

no versus look at that okay who's the biggest lion in the world? But yeah, it's awesome. I love where those two are at. And what did he, is his ACL too? He did his ACL too. He did his ACL. Same. Same, same.

Same, same. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So it all comes down to what do you say self-happiness and mastery is trial and error dude you're a legend all right mick thank you for so much more than this conversation like thank you for teaching me thank you for so much more than this conversation.

Like, thank you for teaching me. Thank you for being a mentor when you didn't even know it. And thank you for the history of conversations we've had over the last. Thank you, man. Thanks for making it fun. There we go. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us.

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