Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Head of Mercedes-Benz Motorsport Toto Wolff on Risk, Innovation, and Winning

Episode Date: April 26, 2017

This conversation is with Toto Wolff. If you follow Formula One, you know what Toto has helped build over the past handful of years. He's an owner and the Executive Director of the Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team - along with wider responsibilities as Head of Mercedes-Benz Motorsport. Formula One is known as the tip of the arrow when it comes to motorsports -- their cars are the fastest road course racing cars in the world, being able to maintain very high cornering speeds (pulling 6g's) by generating incredible amounts of aerodynamic down force. They race at speeds of up to approximately 230 MPH. Toto is a father, husband, and businessman. He knows risk. He knows innovation. And he knows winning. Under his leadership, Mercedes-AMG Petronas Motorsport has clinched a hat-trick of Formula One World Championships, winning a total of six titles and more than 50 Grand Prix since 2014. The reason I wanted to have the conversation with Toto is because he has an incredible way about how he see's organizational success -- how he balances the financial tension between innovation and risk and how he works with highly talented drivers and engineers and ultimately -- I wanted to understand what is at the center of his relentless drive…..and….how exactly does someone become able to be an owner of a Formula One team (let alone the Mercedes team). This conversation is loaded….Hope you enjoy and are able to put at least one of insights in the conversation into action. Oh, by the way, Toto speaks fluent German, English, French, Italian, Spanish, and Polish._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Finding Mastery is brought to you by Remarkable. In a world that's full of distractions, focused thinking is becoming a rare skill and a massive competitive advantage. That's why I've been using the Remarkable Paper Pro, a digital notebook designed to help you think clearly and work deliberately. It's not another device filled with notifications or apps.

It's intentionally built for deep work. So there's no social media, no email, no noise. The writing experience, it feels just like pen on paper. I love it. And it has the intelligence of digital tools like converting your handwriting to text, organizing your notes, tagging files, and using productivity templates

to help you be more effective. It is sleek, minimal. It's incredibly lightweight. It feels really good. I take it with me anywhere from meetings to travel without missing a beat. What I love most is that it doesn't try to do everything. It just helps me do one very important thing really well,

stay present and engaged with my thinking and writing. If you wanna slow down, if you wanna work smarter, I highly encourage you to check them out. Visit remarkable.com to learn more and grab your paper pro today. My experience with high-performing individuals is that the very last percentage of high performers is that they either suffered trauma or humiliation or both. Because what would justify to develop that above average drive? All right, welcome back or welcome to the Finding Mastery podcast. I'm Michael Gervais. And the idea behind these conversations is to learn, to learn from people who are on the path of mastery, who have dedicated their life efforts to understand the nuances of their craft and the

nuances of how the self develops. And we really want to dig to work to understand their psychological framework, which is a fancy phrase for their worldview and how they understand their craft and how they understand people work. And then we want to dig under the surface a little further and see if we can understand the mental skills that they've used to build and refine their craft. Finding Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Solutions. In any high-performing environment that I've been part of, from elite teams to executive boardrooms, one thing holds true.

Meaningful relationships are at the center of sustained success. And building those relationships, it takes more than effort. It takes a real caring about your people. It takes the right tools, the right information at the right time. And that's where LinkedIn Sales Navigator can come in. It's a tool designed specifically for thoughtful sales professionals, helping you find the right people that are ready to engage, track key account changes, and connect with key decision makers more effectively. It surfaces real-time signals, like when someone changes jobs or when an account becomes high

priority, so that you can reach out at exactly the right moment with context and thoroughness that builds trust. It also helps tap into your own network more strategically, showing you who you already know that can help you open doors or make a warm introduction. In other words, it's not about more outreach. It's about smarter, more human outreach. And that's something here at Finding Mastery that our team lives and breathes by. If you're ready to start building stronger relationships that actually convert, try LinkedIn Sales Navigator for free for 60 days at linkedin.com slash deal. That's linkedin.com slash deal for two full months for free. Terms and conditions apply. Finding Mastery is brought to you by David Protein.

I'm pretty intentional about what I eat and the majority of my nutrition comes from whole foods. And when I'm traveling or in between meals on a demanding day, certainly, I need something quick that will support the way that I feel and think and perform. And that's why I've been leaning on David Protein bars. And so has the team here at Finding Mastery. In fact, our GM, Stuart, he loves them so much. I just want to kind of quickly put them on the spot. Stuart, I know you're listening. I think you might be the reason that we're running out of these bars so quickly.

They're incredible, Mike. I love them. One a day. One a day. What do you mean one a day? There's way more than that happening here. Don't tell. Okay.

All right, look, they're incredibly simple. They're effective. 28 grams of protein, just 150 calories and zero grams of sugar. It's rare to find something that fits so conveniently into a performance-based lifestyle and actually tastes good. Dr. Peter Attia, someone who's been on the show, it's a great episode by the way, is also their chief science officer. So I know they've done their due diligence in that category. My favorite flavor right now is the chocolate chip cookie dough. And a few of our teammates here at Finding Mastery have been loving the fudge brownie and peanut butter. I know Stuart, you're still listening here. So getting enough protein matters. And that can't be understated, not just for strength, but for

energy and focus, recovery, for longevity. And I love that be understated, not just for strength, but for energy and focus, recovery for longevity. And I love that David is making that easier. So if you're trying to hit your daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash Finding Mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, Protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash Finding Mastery. Okay, now this conversation is with Toto Wolff. And if you follow Formula One, you know who Toto is, and you know what he's been able to build over the past handful of years. He's an owner and executive director of the Mercedes-AMG Patronus Formula One team, alongside with wider responsibilities as the head

of Mercedes-Benz Motorsports. Now, Formula One is known as the tip of the arrow when it comes to motorsports, and their cars are the fastest road course racing cars in the world. And what they're able to do is maintain incredibly high cornering speed. They're able to pull six G's on average in the corners and probably higher. But what I've come to understand is around six G's by generating incredible amounts of downforce by it's an aerodynamic ability to keep the car connected to the ground. And they race at incredible speeds, somewhere near or north of 230 miles an hour. So Toto, he's a father, a husband, and a businessman. And he knows risk.

He knows innovation. And he knows winning. Under his leadership at Mercedes-AMG Patronus Motorsport, he's clinched a hat trick of Formula One World Championships. It's phenomenal. And he's won a total of six titles and more than 50 Grand Prix's since 2014. Now, the reason I wanted to have this conversation with Toto is because he has an incredible way about how he sees organizational success and how he balances the financial tension between innovation and risk and how he works with highly talented drivers and highly talented engineers. And ultimately, I wanted to understand what is at the center of his relentless drive towards success. And it's also cool to really understand exactly how does someone become able to be an owner of a Formula One team, let alone the Mercedes team.

This conversation is loaded, and I hope you enjoy it. And I hope you're able to put at least one of the insights of this conversation in action. And by the way, speaking of putting things into action, Toto speaks fluent German, English, French, Italian, Spanish, and Polish. So with that, let's jump right into this English speaking conversation with Toto Wolf. Toto. Good morning. All right. So we've known each other a couple of years now and we haven't been able to spend, I would say as much time as I would have hoped

because what you're doing is phenomenal and who you are as a man is equally as phenomenal. So can you give us a sense of what it was like growing up? You're now running one of the most successful Formula One teams, which for folks that don't understand Formula One, you guys are ripping across the tracks at what type of speeds? 220 miles an hour. Yeah. Open wheel in rain, in whatever, in hot conditions. And the drivers are skilled. The are are phenomenal the car what you do is world-class and you've been very successful for a long time so let's go back and just give me a sense of what it was like growing up for you first of all it's true we haven't got we haven't got to spend a lot of time uh with each other but when we when our paths crossed it was very interesting

um but in that crazy circus where you spend the year traveling, somehow with you being in LA and us in Europe, we kind of never crossed. Growing up, difficult. I was born in Vienna. Went to, was lucky enough to go to a French school, which later in life proved to be an important, speaking French proved to be an important part of what I do today. And from a Polish mother, I was born from a Polish mother and a Romanian father.

And life was easy at the beginning but my father got very ill when he was around 30 years old and died 10 years later from a brain cancer but all through these 10 years there was a lot of I would say suffering in the in the family and that was a very difficult time for you know a young boy becoming a teenager parents got divorced afterwards um and um and it was a tough life because in vienna growing up in that environment of that school which was generally a walesi environment but not having had the means ourselves was maybe the part of the trauma that was necessary for everything else that came afterwards. Oh, I love that statement. Yeah. Okay. All right. So let me get some facts in place. Dad had cancer. And then after the diagnosis, your parents split.

Yeah, my father couldn't really work anymore. And when you're 30 years old, you're like just starting into your professional life and it was that's why it ended for him so it was a 10-year struggle um with a battle for life actually and and this is where the marriage collapsed as well so and then how old were you at the time i was eight you were eight when dad got diagnosed yes okay and then as an eight-year-old when you're trying to make sense of the world did you know what that meant that dad had cancer or did that not yet sink really in at the age of eight it didn't really make you had a lot of meaning it was just a you know hospital visits that got more and

more frequent it was particularly difficult when you are an early teenager i think for a young boy you need to have the father for the support and the fights and um if if that is turned around in the other way when you are supporting that absolutely yeah if your father needs your support because he's not himself anymore that that is something that is very difficult. But having said that, you know, I have the feeling that many so-called high performers occur difficult life circumstances as young adults. You know, there's this insight. You're picking up on something that I've seen in multiple different sports. And if I pull them all together, this is the insight. When we're looking for selection or like what makes, what is the background of somebody that does something extraordinary? Oftentimes people will report kind of a screwed up younger life,

something that had some pain and some suffering in it. And they figured it out. So they developed some resiliency. And then they were younger on the birth order, interesting as a concept, and then had a ridiculous sensation or appetite to do something special. Like those three, four ingredients tend to fall into place more often than we suggest. So you're starting our conversation with like, okay, my early stuff was pretty tough and that you were a supporter when that's not exactly the role that you thought maybe. Yeah, but you said something phenomenal, which was that set up everything that's happened there

from there onward. My experience with high performing individuals is that the very last percentage of high performers is that they either suffered trauma or humiliation or both. Because what would justify to develop that above average drive, ambition. And I think you must have had quite a hit as a child or as a teenager in order to develop that. And you're talking about that, the rare space of the half a percent

of the half a percent possibly, like that really rare space. And is is that across are you thinking about drivers are you thinking about engineers are you thinking about ceos entrepreneurs all of them um so my interaction is is with a lot of sports person with drivers and i can see that but i can see that also with entrepreneurs um now it's very dangerous to come up with a general pattern and say everybody who is successful is a psychopath. I'm not saying that. Yeah, good call.

There is quite some stable guys out there who are still very successful. But I think that to protect the childhood without any of without any trauma there is a high risk that you become a white elephant that you're just very comfortable in what you do and you haven't been pushed out of your out of your zone and and by developing some resilience in adverse environment that is something that is very useful for later on and then have you figured out a way that resiliency happens for people how has it happened for you or is it just something that seems to be part of your dna resilience is something that you need to remember yourself all the time because when you when you face a difficult moment, you tend to dive into it and the world is all breaking down.

But it's not actually. It is an opportunity to grow and to develop and to become stronger. But it is not a natural instinct. The natural instinct is to kind of dwell into it and be sorry for yourself for sure yeah so that's what i it's like skiing do you do any skiing any downhill i'm an austrian yeah that's i mean it's like a layup yeah that's what i thought yeah okay and so do you remember when you first started skiing is that so you're going downhill fast and if you lean back it's the exact wrong thing to do but that's what the body wants to do is lean back to try to slow down. And so as you would teach me, right, you want to

actually be balanced over your skis, turn on an angle to be able to slow down, which is counter intuitive in many ways. Yeah, it's like anxiety, you need to go straight, straight into it and face it, the more you try to avoid it and this leaning back and skiing is like the avoidancy i'm you know i'm on the back foot is what it says right yeah it's always only gonna make it worse and and leaning forward going into things and facing facing the problem generally um makes things much easier is that something is that so of all the things we could have talked about in the first three, four minutes, we're talking about resilient trauma, resiliency,

um, and, and anxiety like that phenomenal. Right. So do you, do you, are you guided by embracing adversity and challenges? Do you love those or do you suffer through them with some other mission in mind i don't think there's a right and wrong in that you know yeah i don't think you can embrace it you'd rather avoid it but um it is it is part of of of what i am but it is not something that i that that is part of my daily daily life or my routine or what particularly drives me. I like to benchmark myself. Whatever I do, I like the competition.

And what we do today needs a stopwatch. And the stopwatch never lies. You can come up with lots of explanation why it went wrong or right. But in motor racing you're either too slow or fast enough so you like that objective measure that's where you come alive with competition like a or b did did you make it or not make it you'll make it or not make it an old and this is why the sports is in general such a good um such a good environment because you either win or lose. And in business, you can get away with things. And in politics, you can have explanations. But in sports, explanations are not worth anything

if you haven't won. Is that why you've been attracted to sport? So I always think of you like an entrepreneur. I don't know if that's accurate or not but you have an entrepreneurial mindset and approach the creative yeah the creative abilities to reach a particular end do you see yourself as an entrepreneur or do you see yourself in different a different way no i see myself as an entrepreneur that's what i've done over 20 years but i've reinvented myself twice um i i had an investment background and an investment firm and i was somehow lucky enough to be able to combine the two worlds by um being an investor in a racing team so combining the sport sporting side with the entrepreneurial with the financial side when did that happen that happened um in 2009 i was running an investment company and we

i was a keen amateur racing driver as a child or as a teenager and didn't quite make it and 10 years into my investment life stumbled across a motor racing team that had quite some um quite some interesting profits and interesting interesting business case and invested in the field and this is where where first time i combined those two combined those two areas of interest. So I think when I first met you, I would have for sure thought that you came from privilege, that you came from lots of money. And I mean, how do you own a Formula One, Mercedes Formula One team? How do you come to be an owner in that team? But that's not what you just described.

No, it's the opposite. who is suffering from a terminal illness, a child who's looking at his dad and taking care of his dad with your family that split. How do you go from, I'm not saying that's bad, but that's hard. Is that a fair statement? It's not bad, but hard. Yes. It's bad and hard. It's bad and hard. You'd rather have a child that is not going through that. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So how did you do that? How did you, well, that's the question. I cannot answer that question. I think to decode or trace back how that all happened is difficult for yourself. And it's not something, you know, I don't see myself at that stage of my life

as somebody that has been successful and that has achieved his targets and that's it. It's kind of halftime in an entrepreneurial life. I'm not a sportsman where your first career ends with 35. I'm just right in there. And hopefully if I'm healthy, I can go another 30 years or 40 years. So I wouldn't like to summarize now and say what made you successful. Well, let's have that conversation in 30 years love that okay are you are you value driven performance driven maybe a combination of both outcome driven process driven spiritually driven love driven like what is the thing that is driving you I think all these factors matter for for me the most important is result-driven. Whatever I do, I try to set objectives that reflect success or failure.

And that is ultimately what drives me. But then all the other things you mentioned, love, being spiritual, relationships, are a fundamental part of the final result. You can't do without them. So that is all part of it. And then when you talk about shaping success and failure, I've asked this question a lot, and it's me trying to sort it out. What does it mean? How do you think about success? Off the top of your head right now,

where you are in your life, how do you articulate or think about success right now? For me, it's very easy. It's about winning formula one world championships all that it's pretty simple it's a very simple target and how many times have you done it three times yeah three driver championships and three constructive championships in a row golly okay so winning one is a real challenge back to to back to back, it's a whole different category. Has been done in the past.

So it's not like that you can say that is an extraordinary achievement. I think it's not bad. And I would say we are part of the better group. But we are in a particularly interesting situation now because no team has ever won back-to-back championships in an environment where the regulations have changed dramatically. And that's happened from 2016 to 2017. So we've just done our first race. Oh, so winning back-to-back or multiple championships inside of the regulations.

So you figure out the game early. Some teams have figured out the game, the game inside the game inside the game, and then maximize the regulations. So you figure out the game early. Some teams have figured out the game, the game inside the game inside the game, and then maximize the return. And now you're having to retool, maybe probably literally, your approach and the mechanics of having a great car and a great system. Yes, if you have a head start,

it's easier to maintain that tiny advantage in an environment of marginal gains that can help you through a longer period but when the if when the rule change it provides opportunity for your for your enemies as well for your competitors and risks for yourself if you have been the benchmark and therefore we embrace that situation. It is actually, it came at the right time. After three years, there is the risk of getting used to results, setting expectations in the wrong way.

Complacency is a word that is easily said, but it's a very subtle danger. It's just lacking motivation lacking objective objectives and if rules change and you know that you are going to face adverse advocacy uh adversity um that's a that provides a great source of energy. For you, for many, it provides. For all the, for all the people here in the team. Is that something you've selected for or cultivated in your culture is to look forward to challenges instead of being overwhelmed by them? Is that something that you look for specifically? Yes, it is a culture that you need to embrace in a sports team and you need to live words.

You know, everybody can put words on a PowerPoint and present them, but you need to really embrace that every year, every day and live it every day and cascade it through the organization. And I had an interesting encounter with our chief designer a couple of weeks ago, when we faced those first test days, and they were not easy, bits were breaking off the car. And I came into the design office, and everybody was busy fixing the car. And it just was a difficult phase. And he said, that is so exciting. And that is exactly the mindset you need to have. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentus. When it comes to high performance,

whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday, what you put in your body matters. And that's why I trust Momentus. From the moment I sat down with Jeff Byers, their co-founder and CEO, I could tell this was not your average supplement company. And I was immediately drawn to their mission, helping people achieve performance for life. And to do that, they developed what they call the Momentus standard. Every product is formulated

with top experts and every batch is third-party tested. NSF certified for sport or informed sport. So you know exactly what you're getting. Personally, I'm anchored by what they call the Momentus 3. Protein, creatine, and omega-3. And together, these foundational nutrients support muscle recovery, brain function, and long-term energy. They're part of my daily routine. And if you're ready to fuel your brain and body with the best, Momentous has a great new offer just for our community right here. Use the code FINDINGMASTERY for 35% off your first subscription order

at livemomentous.com. Again, that's L-I-V-E, Momentous, M-O-M-E-N-T-O-U-S, livemomentous.com, and use the code Finding Mastery for 35% off your first subscription order. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Felix Gray. I spend a lot of time thinking about how we can create the conditions for high performance. How do we protect our ability to focus, to recover, to be present? And one of the biggest challenges we face today is our sheer amount of screen time. It messes with our sleep, our clarity, even our mood. And that's why I've been using Felix Gray

glasses. What I appreciate most about Felix Gray is that they're just not another wellness product. They're rooted in real science. Developed alongside leading researchers and ophthalmologists. They've demonstrated these types of glasses boost melatonin, help you fall asleep faster and hit deeper stages of rest. When I'm on the road and bouncing around between time zones, slipping on my Felix Graze in the evening, it's a simple way to cue my body just to wind down. And when I'm locked into deep work, they also help me stay focused for longer without digital fatigue creeping in. Plus, they look great. Clean, clear, no funky color distortion. Just good design, great science. And if you're ready to feel the difference for yourself,

Felix Gray is offering all Finding Mastery listeners 20% off. Just head to felixgray.com and use the code findingMastery20 at checkout. Again, that's Felix Gray. You spell it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com and use the code FindingMastery20 at FelixGray.com for 20% off. How can you have that? I love it, by the way. But how can you have that mindset with all this other financial and ego-driven pressures

to win? How do you manage both of those? Ego can be quite a force. I love that you picked up on that first. It is. Isn't it tricky? Yeah. In our environment in sports… I thought I was going to slip that in, by the way.

I know. I figured it out. When you have cameras being pointed at you ego is there is the danger of ego running away with you and uh and you need to you need to realize that you need to be able to come back into your hotel room in the evening after after race or game look in the mirror and say i've been a little bit of a dick today um i got that that one wrong and i think that that you can channel uh you you can channel ego what what is ego ego at the end is trying to um trying to be better well is that how you think about ego? I don't think about it that way. That's interesting. It's about getting recognition for what you do.

It's about standing out, which again, in my opinion, sources from trauma and humiliation. Because if you're a pretty balanced guy, why would you want to stand out? It's about being happy, right? That is what it all comes down to. But why would you want to stand out it's about being happy right that is what it all comes down to but why would you want to stand out and the ones that succeed in my opinion are the ones that recognize the danger of that um of of the ego carrying carrying being you know carrying you away people lift off from the floor they think they are better they think they are more important and that is very short short sighted have you i

know i i'm rabbit holing with you on this but i you so growing up in growing up in austria there's an incredible appreciation for psychology and i don't know where it is now, but there's some incredible psychologists that have come from that area, right? Freud, you know, like there's some incredible thinking there. How do you manage ego when it doesn't go your way? And you can maybe think about like for an engineer or driver or teammate or whatever. But for you, how do you manage it? Like your ego when it doesn't go your way, because here you are,

you know, owner of formula one, the whole thing, cameras are always pointed at you. And there's a lot of pressure because when you make a mistake publicly, well, no, let me take that back.

When you make a mistake, it's public. I don't think that there is't single and there's a single answer to that yeah how you cope how you cope and how you behave in moments of failure is in my opinion you can see right into the soul of somebody it is so it is beautiful isn't it those moments are really cool yeah you're just all the shields drop away yeah and or all the protections come up and they've been there like really unreal it's scary I think to be I bet if you've been around people that have had

the exact opposite we're under failure that denial denial denial and then they create confusion denial denial then they create confusion and then the whole ecosystem spins off access in not a good way you need to be able to recognize your own your mistake your own mistakes and your own failure only that is going to make it able for make it able for you to assess them and avoid them in the future and grow this is something which we are really working hard within the team is to have the ability of pointing at the problem blaming a decision or a blaming situation rather than blaming a single individual and you need to have a safe environment

people need to make be sure that they are allowed to stand up and say I've done a mistake and it's something I see all our senior guys doing within their groups have some amazing experiences meetings where the most senior guy in the in the room starts the meeting by saying, I screwed up. I shouldn't have said that. I shouldn't have done that. I shouldn't have decided that. And you can see all the people junior to him start to pick that up. And you create a culture where you can really get rid of problems rather than hiding them and we have a motto that is see it say it fix it and whenever there is difficult things coming up i try to you know i tend to to use that and say somebody speaks

up his boss gets angry about it because you know that is difficult sometimes to cope with that situation and then reminding yourself that this is part of our mindset is good and helps. See it, say it, fix it. So encouraging people to be able to not only recognize it, but do something about it, right? Find solutions. Yes. Recognize your own shortcomings. I love it. And do you do that? How do you do that as a man? All the time. Do you rely on other people or is it more introspective where you're listening to yourself i i think it is more listening to myself and um i'm very skeptical about about my own achievements and generally very skeptical skeptical of whether what we do is good enough but then i have great confidence in the in in the people within the team i know that they can

they can fix it and for myself i think it is important to to surround yourself with individuals that you trust, that you providing them with a safe environment so they can speak up. You know, it's not necessary just in doing a 360 and hope that some of your juniors or some of your reports are going to point into your deficits. Right. Yeah. But it's really that people are able to come into your office or or your wife speaking to you in the evening and saying you've been an idiot here or you've done that wrong or you have been carried away with that can't happen that doesn't happen to you no it happened to me every day i i my wife holds me straight like you wouldn't believe you know it's like a seriously a person

that knows inside and out every part and it's i think it's one of the greatest gifts in a relationship is to hold each other accountable to truth and to keep working to refine and build the person that you want to be and maybe that's maybe it's not refining and building it's revealing the person that you're meant to be i see that with guys that have failed um or that have been carried away is that they haven't had that environment at home they have somebody that is looking up to them and that is somebody a wife or partner that's gonna say how great they are and that it wasn't their mistake it was somebody else's fault and and that is absolutely dangerous ground you need to have a challenge at home you need to have a sparring partner at home

that is able to point at your own deficits god so good it's refreshing to hear you say that because i was going to ask you a question like, who tells you no? And I also want to go back. So I want to answer that. But I also want to go back to how you build trust here in your organization and maybe trust at home to be able to say, hey, I screwed up and people not be able to say, well, you screwed up. You got to go, you know, whether it's at home or at the office.

But is it your wife that tells you when you're wrong or tells you no? Or do you have other people? I try to generally to have people around me that tell me no. My wife is clearly my best sparring partner because we spend a lot of time with each other. And she tells me no all the time. But she does it in a very uh clever uh in a very clever way she

she fights the battles that are necessary and she lets me win the ones that are not important and and in the office generally in the team environment it is very difficult to cope with a with a no or very difficult to be criticized because clearly taking on board that you weren't good enough is hard hard stuff to swallow but you need to be able to to take it on board and whether your instant reaction is that you're gonna push back and not accept it doesn't really matter as long as that you provide an environment for your people to tell you to continue to tell you because i often have a discussion that i disagree i say you're wrong so someone comes in and says hey total i think you made a mistake does that actually

happen to you that happens okay and you say no no that's not i think you made a mistake. Does that actually happen to you? That happens. Okay. And you say, no, no, no. I think you're wrong. Yes. And so now the question is, is Toto in denial or is Toto accurate and somebody else has a mistake? Right. That's kind of the underpinning story there. So keep going. Like on that thought, how does that work?

Both happen. Sometimes... Yeah, they do. You know, first of all, if you were wrong, the minute you did that, you felt it was the right thing to do. So I am prepared to have that challenge and have that discussion and on reflection, on knowledge that I've been wrong or not. And I say that. And I wouldn't say there is a general pattern that everybody every time somebody comes in and says you you were wrong he's right um there might you know everybody has his own reality and his own perception and but but having a having a little bit of a pushback is good thing

you know what i'm appreciating as we're talking is that, so I'm asking questions, not meant to be like A, B, or C, pick the right answer, but trying to drive some clarity in some thoughts. And what I really appreciate what you're doing is you're saying it's not simple. Each question that we've had in the exchange, you're saying it's nuanced. You haven't used that word, but it's nuanced. It's all of that. It's nuanced. You haven't used that word, but it's nuanced. It's all of that. It's both. So there's something about you that I'm just picking up in this conversation after you said it's about success or achievement, that would say, okay, black and white. But that's not what's coming through in the nature and fabric of the conversation. So as I say that, what happens for you?

There is no silver bullet or no simple answer to come up with a concept of life. Generally, you read all these inspirational quotes on Instagram and you're like, well, I like that one and, you know, going to take that on board. But there are many nuances and there is much more than just a quote. And there is just much more than black and white every situation is different every environment is different and you just need to have a constant reflection of what's happening around you you know your area you have to be mindful you have to realize the dynamics within yourself and the dynamics

with within the group that it is around yourself and that the group of individuals that are responsible for making you look good that are the ones that provide performance to the team that is very important that all of that being said which is the appreciation for the multivariate multi-ayered understandings about how life works. Is there a word that captures you? One word that captures you at your center? That would be contradictory to the topic of many nuances. I know, I know.

Skeptical. Very cool. I would not have imagined that for you i mean you said it twice in the interview skeptical of results i think you said and skeptical of something else achievement maybe or your success i think you said so why skeptic because it doesn't make you rest on your laurels. So that's what keeps you hungry. That's what keeps you moving forward. Yes, you need to always benchmark yourself against the next best.

If you achieve a certain target, look at the one who is more successful. What happens when you're setting the targets, which is what you guys are doing now? If you set the right targets, it is targets that are achievable because you shouldn't set targets that aren't achievable because you will make yourself frustrated. But you need to set them high. And you need to, and that is your area, you need to develop almost a blueprint of your target.

And I think if you can really imagine how it feels to achieve that target and you will set all the, you will, you will set all the right, you will initiate, you will initiate all the right steps in order to achieve the target. You, you just hit the art,

right? Which is, so there's two, there's two ways people think about goals, set these wild ass goals and put them way out there. And, you know, that's fine if you don't reach them because along the way it'll be fantastic. And then there's another approach, which is be precise with your, um, your goals that are just outside your limit. And the art of what you just described was set it high, but at the same time time make sure that you've got a plan where you

can see the path that that could take place is that something you do in your own life as well as the team and if if it's just both like do you write them down like how do you actually do this there is a study out there and the study is probably not true this famous harvard study where they over 10 over the period of 10 years they looked at results of mba students that you know that one oh yeah yeah i think it's it's a fake one actually but i like the story a lot it's a good story keep going yeah and they followed those students that um and how they were setting those targets. And 90% of the students didn't set any targets. 7%, I don't know if the numbers are accurate, set targets but didn't write them down. And 3% wrote them down.

So the 7% that had targets earned double of what the 90% did that didn't set any targets. And the 3% earned 10 times what everybody else had. And I am a believer of target setting because it reminds you every single day of what you actually want to achieve. It takes away all the clutter, all the noise. I think that I remember that folklore of a study and I went and did some digging and research on it. It was a number of years ago. I went and did some digging and research on it. It was a number of years ago. I can't remember if it was real or not.

So I'm going to go back. You've reminded me of it. I'll go back and I'll send you. I did the digging. I think it's fake. You did? Yeah. But I keep telling the story because it's just so true for me.

I love the idea of externalizing my goals, like writing them down in a way so that I can see it. And it's like there's a forcing function that I have to commit to something, which helps drive some direction. So I think that that part, there's something really accurate about that part. It is something that is not possible for everybody though. I have realized that whatever I could imagine had a pretty good chance of actually happening. So we try to embrace that within the team. We set those targets. We take all the senior leaders on an offsite at the beginning of the year and we set the

targets for the Mercedes and the targets for the racing team. And then we set individual targets. Oh, you do for each person? For each person, yeah. And we write them down. And all those targets are then being laminated on a little piece of paper and everybody gets it in his briefcase. And it's interesting. I'm looking for my phone or my iPod on a long-haul flight and then suddenly I find this piece of paper and I look at it.

And I remind myself of the targets i said and whether you look at it or not that the sheer ritual of writing them down of of finding out for yourself what's important for these next 12 months or longer is um is stored somewhere and that is quite forceful how that functions i don't know but it does i don't know either i think it's phenomenal though and do you set goals as a man that are separate from a businessman? Like do you set business goals and then personal goals or are they all wrapped up together for you? You set both. That's what I do. Separately. No, the same piece of paper.

It would be on the same line. My personal goals are the ones that are of much more importance. Being a good father or being a good husband has a much greater importance than winning a Formula One World Championship. And nevertheless, they are on the same page, on the same list. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery

doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day. And Cozy Earth has become a new part of that. Their bedding, it's incredibly soft, like next level soft. And what surprised me the most is how much it actually helps regulate temperature. I tend to run warm at night, and these sheets have helped me sleep cooler and more consistently, which has made a meaningful difference in how I show up the next day for myself, my family, and our team here at Finding Mastery. It's become part of my nightly routine. Throw on their

lounge pants or pajamas, crawl into bed under their sheets, and my nervous system starts to settle. They also offer a 100-night sleep trial and a 10-year warranty on all of their bedding, which tells me, tells you, that they believe in the long-term value of what they're creating. If you're ready to upgrade your rest and turn your bed into a better recovery zone, use the code FINDINGMASTERY for 40% off at CozyEarth.com. That's a great discount for our community. Again, the code is Finding Mastery for 40% off at CozyEarth.com. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Caldera Lab. I believe that the way we do small things in life is how we do all things. And for me, that includes how I take care of my body.

I've been using Caldera Lab for years now. And what keeps me coming back, it's really simple. Their products are simple and they reflect the kind of intentional living that I want to build into every part of my day. And they make my morning routine really easy. They've got some great new products I think you'll be interested in. A shampoo, conditioner, and a hair serum. With Caldera Lab, it's not about adding more. It's about choosing better. And when your day demands clarity and energy and presence, the way you prepare for it matters. If you're looking for high quality personal care products

that elevate your routine without complicating it, I'd love for you to check them out. Head to calderalab.com slash finding mastery and use the code finding mastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash finding mastery. So how do you develop trust with others? How do you do that? I want to go back to the, because this is, there's, you and I have a trust, and that's why I think two drivers that are competing for the same thing. And you're in some ways responsible for creating success for both, but only one really gets the success that maybe they wanted, which is to win. Trust isn't established by words, clever sentences.

Trust needs actions and trust happens or grows in those difficult moments when the other person realizes they can rely on you because you haven't let them down although it would have been easy to let them down and um and i had a i had a situation here when I started at Mercedes five years ago. I had this, I held this, what seemed to me a great speech at the beginning of what I would want to achieve here and how I would protect the organization. And everybody left the room and nodded. No, everybody, how do you say, acknowledged, not nodded. And at the end, there was a guy from the machine shop that left the room. And I said, bye-bye.

And he turned towards me and said, nice words. Let's see whether it happens. And that is very true. There's a lot of opportunists out there that say nice stuff that make up nice stuff but when times are getting difficult they will be the first ones to protect

themselves and blame somebody else and that is the moment you can build trust. And that is gonna be sustainable. That is going to make a relationship sustainable and long term sustainable. Yeah, so well said. Where'd you figure that out? Must have read it in one of your blogs.

No, because I think that that's where your skeptic is actually driving truth. You being the skeptic is actually driving truth. You being the skeptic is driving the truth of being able to align your words and your actions, which, as I think we both nod our heads to, is pretty rare. It is rare because everybody's looking at themselves out there. I need to laugh. There's so many individuals that deal every day that say say things and don't mean them and they fail eventually so how do you think about failure well i don't like it um how do you define it like for you what is failure failure in my on my current journey is very easy you're not winning a race in that particular business environment or sporting environments there's many other failures

out there in relationships in your in your private life so the little failures that have that happen every day um but my main business failure is can be measured on a stopwatch at the moment can you riff off of this? This is how I think about failure. And so I'd just love for you to riff and see what you think. Is that for me, for a long time, failure, I didn't understand it. And I'd feel it, I'd experience it,

but it was based on what other people thought of my achievement. That's really where my measurement was, which was awful for me. And so now I think about failure as not going for it. So playing it safe, playing it small, and failure is that function of not letting it rip when I have the opportunity to do so, to really get on the edge and stay on the edge as long as I possibly can. And then so in return, that's also how I see success, not whether I'm winning or losing,

but I'm seeing success as am I staying on the razor's edge as long as I possibly can. And if I do that long enough, it ends up getting to some truth or some good stuff. So if failure is not going forward, success is going forward. And then there's holes, there's, there's challenges in that, especially from an outcome-based model that you might have, which is like, no, listen, it's either you beat the stopwatch or you don't and so can you can you just talk me through that your response to that just a little bit i think that failures little failures happen throughout your whole life but my concept is that at the end when i when i sum it all part it should have it

should be a success and it's not about trying to you know grab every bit of success that that's that's on your way it's about it's about long-term success it's about adding up all the dots. So you have a constant long-term upward slope with all the little setbacks that are necessary. It's not a constant graph that's showing upwards. But the long-term trend should be upwards. And therefore it is easier to cope with failures in between because they are part of the upward trend. Okay. Brilliant. Okay. So here's some quick hit questions and then, um, we're going to round it out with like your understandings of mastery, that big question. Okay. What is it like

when you're at your best? What does it it like when you're at your best what does it feel like when you are at your best it doesn't feel so good actually whoa that surprises me yeah because i'm already thinking i'm already thinking about the next challenge which as a life concept is not great because it doesn't make you cherish the days a lot because when it's about time to celebrate or time to acknowledge an achievement the the the skepticism kicks in about the next challenge ahead okay so when you're at your best best, when you're not consumed with the next, what is that like for you? under a lot of pressure but feeling happy about it and

it's a cool thought and being in the moment and you have this split seconds of an emotion about it but it goes away because you're in the thing. You only realize afterwards that you have been in that place. Because once you are... Yeah, once you're in it and you realize you're in it, you're out of it.

Yes. And so it's when you look back, yeah. The reason I ask that question is it's hard to capture that. It's hard to articulate what it's like to be completely alive or completely aligned or at your best, however you want to describe it. Okay, so how important 1 to 10 is music? Changes. It's a longer answer. It's not 1 to 10.

There have been times of difficulties where music was six or seven if things are running well I don't listen to music I don't watch any movies I'm pretty okay by just staring into space and when you stare into space is that your way of being present yes I've had a 20-hour journey back from Australia. I haven't listened to one single song. I haven't looked at one single movie. I haven't read one single page in a book. I've just been there with myself and wrote down notes.

But most of the time, just thought. That's phenomenal. Yeah, that is phenomenal. What you just said is really rare i think we just found a crown jewel for toto yeah that's really rare that's cool that means there's like intense introspection that you're paying attention internally to what's making sense and what you know what's cool about that you could say that to a thousand people but the way that you operate internally to do that is unique to you.

And there's something in there that has been really successful, your approach there. I think it's a competitive advantage if you look at all the distractions that we are having every day today. You can see it on an airport lounge that people that have a minute of peace, they grab their phone, they look at social media, they flip through some pictures, rather than just thinking. And I've been saying that to my teenage kids, that don't distract yourself with something that doesn't bring you anything. Of course, you know, looking at a couple of Instagram pictures of your friends, that is good fun. but we we we lack the time for reflection um i encourage everybody on the campus here you know to take a walk i don't you don't see that in a camera but take a walk out there rather than surf the internet um i put my feet on the table

and i i look outside and people come in and say, do you have a minute? And I say, no, I'm busy. And with all these things flying at us every day, with all these channels that distract us, that will be a crucial competitive edge in the future. I think being able to activate that thing rather than stimulated with external channels it's really cool hearing it from you you know because you articulate in a way that i know you understand it and you're right on the razor's edge you're right

on the frontier and for you to say it it's very different than somebody that's on a spiritual path. Not that it's wrong or discounting any of that, but because of the public and the intensity of catastrophic injury that could happen if you get your job or your team gets their job wrong, you know, I have a deep appreciation for it. So that was, that was really cool. Last question. How do you think about mastery? Great. Trying to master yourself and your life is the ultimate challenge. I love it. Toto, thank you for your time.

Thank you very much. This is your time as your asset. Your ability to think is a gift. So thank you for sharing. Thank you for just what you're demonstrating on a world stage. It's fantastic. And so wish you the best success. Where can we find you and where can people follow along with what you're demonstrating on a world stage it's fantastic and so wish you the best success where can we find you and where can we people follow along with what you're doing well first

of all thank you for the compliment it's only half time if everything runs why it runs right in the right way it's just half time i have another 30 years to go let's let's have that conversation in 30 years ago um what i'm doing is formula one. So you can follow us on the Sundays and see whether we've failed or been successful. So thank you, everyone, for listening. Thank you for paying attention. You can find this conversation and other conversations just like it on findingmastery.net. Also punch over to iTunes. You can find us there.

And Instagram is at Finding Mastery. And then Twitter is at Michael Gervais. Toto, love knowing you. Thank you. Thank you. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no-cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're listening. Also, if you haven't already, please consider dropping us a review on Apple or Spotify. We are incredibly grateful for the support and feedback.

If you're looking for even more insights, we have a newsletter we send out every Wednesday. Punch over to findingmastery.com slash newsletter to sign up. The show wouldn't be possible without our sponsors and we take our recommendations seriously. And the team is very thoughtful about making sure we love and endorse every product you hear on the show. If you want to check out any of our sponsor offers you heard about in this episode, you can

find those deals at findingmastery.com slash sponsors. And remember, no one does it alone. The door here at Finding Mastery is always open to those looking to explore the edges and the reaches of their potential so that they can help others do the same. So join our community, share your favorite episode with a friend, and let us know how we can continue to show up for you. Lastly, as a quick reminder, information in this podcast and from any material on the Finding Mastery website and social channels is for information purposes only. If you're looking for meaningful support, which we all need, one of the best things you can do

is to talk to a licensed professional. So seek assistance from your healthcare providers. Again, a sincere thank you for listening. Until next episode, be well, think well, keep exploring.