Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Herbert Wigwe, Access Bank CEO and Group Managing Director

Episode Date: January 9, 2019

This week’s conversation is with Herbert Wigwe, a Nigerian banker, entrepreneur, and the Managing Director/CEO of Access Bank.He is an Alumnus of Harvard Business School’s Executive Management Programme.From his early 20’s, Herbert began what would become a successful career in banking and finance, and his first entrepreneurial venture, would be his most successful.In 2002, Herbert and his long-time partner were presented with the prospect of acquiring a small-scale commercial bank, Access Bank.Herbert had spent over a decade at Guaranty Trust Bank and was in-line to becoming the Executive Director in charge of institutional banking.To have even considered such a decision of obtaining what was then ranked the 65th largest bank in Nigeria seemed like career suicide but Herbert seized the opportunity.In 2016, The Banker Database ranked Access Bank in the top 1,000 banks in the world.Today, Access Bank is one of the largest Banks in Africa, a feat which is attributable to his ingenuity and expertise.I was invited to Nigeria to visit Herbert and Access Bank as a part of the work that we’re doing with them at Compete to Create.It was my first time in Africa and I was amazed by the vibrance of the people there.When we consider what's at the center of mastery, it’s so valuable to hear from people across the globe, so I think you’ll really appreciate getting to hear from Herbert._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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And if you want to understand and you're truly as good as you say you are, go and do it. All right, welcome back or welcome to the Finding Mastery podcast. I'm Michael Gervais. And by trade and training, I'm a sport and performance psychologist, as well as the co-founder of a company called Compete to Create. And this conversation, these podcasts, the whole idea behind them is to learn from people who are on the path of mastery, to better understand what they crave, what they're searching for, what their psychological framework is, which is really how they make sense of the world and themselves in the world.

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So if you're trying to hit your daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash finding mastery. All right. Now this week's conversation is with Herbert Wigwe, a Nigerian banker, entrepreneur, and the group managing director and CEO of Access Bank. So he's an alumnus of Harvard Business School's executive management program. And then back in 2002, Herbert and his longtime partner were

presented with the prospect of acquiring a small-scale commercial bank called Access Bank. Now, at that time, though, Herbert had spent over a decade at Guarantee Trust Bank, and he was in line to become kind of the next one, the next executive director in charge of institutional banking. And for him to even consider leaving and going off to this new venture to raise up Access Bank or to acquire Access Bank was like this big deal. And it was a massive opportunity. But at the time, the bank was ranked the 65th largest bank in Nigeria. And so most people were like, don't do it. This is not a good idea. He went, he did it. He's a risk taker. He

figured it all out, created an incredible plan. And now in 2016, the banker database ranked Access Bank in the top 1000 banks in the world. Really cool thought. Okay. So today Access Bank is one of the largest banks in Africa. And so he's really taken this bank and created something very special. And it's something that is attributable to his ingenuity and expertise for sure. So I was invited over to Nigeria to visit with Herbert and Access Bank as part of the work that we're doing with them for Compete to Create. And I was, this first time in Africa, I was just flat out amazed by the people, the vibrance of the people, the way that eye contact was made, the way that laughter and smile was part of just about every conversation, the intensity, the confidence that people had

was flat out amazing. And I just love the time that I got to spend with them. Now, you might notice some background noise in this conversation. It's because we recorded it live in front of their company and it was cool. I mean, the vibrance in this group, like they would do this thing before every meeting. They would open and close each meeting that they would have with prayer, either Muslim or Christian prayer, which was really cool because there's some conflict in Africa between those two religions. And they would also basically chant a warrior song and it would just get them juiced and fired up and they just became fully switched on. And it was an incredible process that they had.

And so you'll hear some background noise in it. But I think that when we consider what is mastery, it's really valuable to hear from people across the globe because culture shapes us, the way we choose words, the way we engage with people, the way we solve problems. And so I'm stoked to be able to introduce to you someone that I think is very special, that's done something really amazing. So with that, let's jump right into this week's conversation with Herbert Weigwe. Herbert, how are you? Good.

Where did you grow up? Okay, here's my story. I was born in Lagos. And at the outbreak of the Civil War, and I think it must have been days into the Civil War, my parents had to run out of Lagos. And so we went straight to Port Harcourt and that was where I started my very early childhood. So what ages are we talking about? So I was not three days old when I left Lagos and then I went straight to Port Harcourt by road, as I was told. And of course, at that time, the infrastructure was in complete despair. Nobody could ever

think about it. And so that also had its own effect on me. We'll talk about it as we move on. So between the ages of 1 and 11, I grew up in Port Harcourt. So that was where I went to primary school. And of course, secondary school thereafter, I went to the northernmost part of the country, somewhere called Sokoto, where I went to Federal Government College Sokoto. Say that again to me. It's called Sokoto.

Sokoto. Yes, it's in the Sahel, almost. All right, so it's in the furthermost part of the north, yes. Where you almost have the desert. What is, so I don't understand your culture nearly enough to understand what it means to live in that part versus lagos so so from 1 to 11 what does that mean when you say that you lived there now let me tell you the big difference now the southern most part of the country which is where I grew up, was actually home to me. Now, when you have to go to

Sokoto, which is, it takes you about three days to get there by rail. I mean, you go by rail, and then you go by road, et cetera, et cetera. Now, the weather out there is extremely harsh. Mike, if I took you there as an adult today, you'd feel homesick. Now, we're there at 11 years old, living with people from a totally different culture at that particular point in time. Great culture, but just different. So it was just a totally different experience. My parents did not believe there was any reason for me to have done it. But I did it anyway. Why did you do it? Because I felt the need to be independent. At what age? From 11. From 11. Yeah, before 11, yes. So you left home at 11?

I left home at 11. Before 11, actually, I was 10 plus. I had to go. You had very rare flights, airplanes that could take you there. So we went by train. This is not the type of trains you have in the U.S., by the way, to a place called Zaria. And then we had to go by road from Zaria to Sokoto. And that is about, what, a four-hour trip.

I remember my mother wondering if she was going to go back home with me that day because she couldn't imagine leaving her son out there. But I was totally comfortable with where I was. Whoa. Okay, so I have a 10-year-old right now. I cannot imagine. I cannot imagine him figuring out to go to a completely different culture and figure out how to survive. Did you have family or some support mechanism there?

I didn't. But at the time it got to, when I had taken that decision and I was going, we started looking for family. And my parents found out that they had a friend who lived there. So, yes, there was somebody I could speak to, but I think I was a visitor at his home. Maybe the only day we got to Sokoto. After that, that was it. I lived my life, you know, normally. Totally, yes.

Okay, is this a common experience for Lagos families? I don't think so. I think you had children who went to unity schools, so you would have a few, maybe 10 to 15 percent, that kind of number. OK. But not very common. And even those who did, didn't dare to go that far. Yeah.

So you could be within the south. You could be in the west, which is, you know, proximate. But to go that far, which would take you two to three days, and trains derailing at that point in time was a very common phenomenon. All right. So you go three days or two and a half days by rail. You then go by road for about three or four hours if you are lucky to get to school. So that was not very, very common. But for those of us who did it, I think it was one of the greatest things that we ever did. Learning to be independent, learning to understand people of other cultures, understanding and accepting other religions,

it's a very, very, very rare and privileged experience. So that's the upside of it, right? You walked away with a better sensitivity and perspective and understanding of different cultures and an appreciation, it sounds like, for them. What was the downside? What was the cost? What was the hardship that you had? There was great hardship. First of all, you had weather extremes. The Hamilton was cold, bitter, and dry. What does bitter mean?

Bitter means that you had sores in your feet, you had your lips cracked totally, you had sores in your hands, etc. Just imagine cracked totally, you had sores in your hands, etc. Just imagine a 10-year-old trying to understand the hygiene of living normally at that part of the country. Very, very difficult. How did you figure that out? I just felt being home did not give me

or allow me enough room to basically explore myself and be independent. Okay, so that's why you left. That's why I left. You left because... That surprises me. Nobody else in my family went that far. But at age 10, what...

My father asked me why I did it and I said I wanted to do it. And they let you? They did. Tell me about your mom and dad. So, my dad was a broadcaster, then went into the military, and at the outbreak of the war, because it's Eastern, had to run back. My mother used to be a nurse, and so that was how she built her own career. Very difficult for them to appreciate what I was trying to do at that particular point in time, but they just felt because of the circumstances of my birth and how I grew up through primary school, they

felt I could handle it. And I'm going to share with you two things, two very important things. I had terrible sores as a child. Terrible. And my parents felt, had great difficulty each time visitors came to bring me out because they thought it was leprosy. And that was because when I was taken out of Lagos and were traveling to the south, something hormonal may have happened, et cetera. So for four years of my life, I was almost in a

cast, all right? But it didn't stop me from mixing and playing with other children because I didn't care. It didn't matter to me, all right? And all of a sudden, I truly grew out of it. They took me to a leprosy center. You know what leprosy is? Yes. I've never seen it. Yeah, I'm just, I'm trying to tell you all I went through. And this story,? Yes. I've never seen it. Yeah, I'm just, I'm trying to tell you all I went through. And this story, I'm sure I've never shared with anybody here before.

They took me to that center. They were concerned. There was no medical treatment that could resolve it. Nothing. And so they were just living and watching me and believing in God

that it was going to be solved. You know, so that was, it made me become so independent. Now, what ages are we talking about there? Definitely between zero and three and a half, that kind of age. But there's no sign of it on my legs anymore. You wouldn't even know it ever happened.

And you remember that? I remember. Because there are pictures, there are childhood pictures, and I remember. I think I may, not I think, I think, I'm certain I remember everything that has happened to me from age three. You do? Yeah. Wow, that's an incredible. Definitely.

And when you say that, I believe you and I also have a sense that there's a lot of emotion behind what you just said. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I remember every, every, everything. To be alienated as a little child is a very strange thing. It brings two different types of emotions. You either grow out of it or it can create a complex for the child. You know?

So several other things happened. And I'll tell you the next one, which is very interesting. Wait. Hold on. This is amazing. This is the, I think, at the essence i think at the essence like me sharing this story by the way that they do not maybe that's why i love children yeah okay yeah so there's a beautiful sensitivity that you have about the alienation process of feeling shunned of feeling uh pushed

to the side withdrawn and then but the insight that you have which is how you move through it and you're very clear that there's at least two options oh yeah and you chose the option to let go of feeling shunned and withdrawn and not have that be part of your identity it's a story that happened to you an experience that happened but it's not your identity yes and um you know like in all things in, and I was told this and I saw it in pictures, they still exist in my parents' home. So because my dad was in the military, we had the opportunity of living in bunkers. And all the senses I had became so much stronger.

For instance, to hear, to feel, to know that something wrong was going to happen, I did it much better than anybody else, even better than adults, as they say. And so each time something was going to happen, I would run to my mother, and they would know that something was happening. Now, it could have been my sense of hearing stronger than others and picking these sounds of airplanes at that particular point in time. Now, this is what my parents told me, and that they always knew that something would happen each time I came.

And how do you make sense? Why do you think that is? I just think that nature allows for certain things to happen. I keep asking if I was blind, would I be alive? But apparently, other things will get stronger within you. And so if you train yourself hard enough, or nature, if you understand where those strengths are, you may find out that there are certain strengths you have that have come up as a result

of some of the deficiencies you probably have. And when I... So you're talking about adaptation. Because recall that I couldn't run like most children. Oh, you couldn't run? No, no, I couldn't. So I would... Because of all that saw and the... like the cast. So other things just, you know, and when you're playing outside, Because of all that saw and the cast.

So other things just, you know, and when you're playing outside, for those who grew up in the East, and if you lived in a bunker, if there were air raids, you had to run into the bunker. All right. So I didn't have, I was not as mobile as other children. Oh my God, that's brilliant. So you're saying the adaptation was that you became more aware, more sensitive, more finely tuned to your environment. That must have been what happened. And that was your survival strategy. That must have been what happened. Definitely.

Oh, okay. So, okay. My hair is standing up all over my body. Yes. Just hearing this conversation. Yeah. If I told my mother I shared this with people, she wouldn't sleep. There is no trace of any of all of that today and for people who struggle

with feeling like they are not good enough that they don't look right that they don't belong because of the way they look how would you help that person whether they're adult or a child i think a lot has a lot of what we've seen here around training your body, your mind, and your spirit

is important. I have two younger children and very close in age, one year age difference. The younger of the two, and very close in age, one year age difference. The younger of the two, I was called to her school, and I asked, what is the problem? I thought there was a problem with her and Lenin,

and they basically said she was a genius. But the one who is slightly older, I found was struggling with Lenin, just struggling. It wasn't just like every other child. But it was exacerbated by his sister. So if he was doing anything, she would come, and at that age, she would try to solve the problem.

As young as she was, she would solve the problem. So it put him under a lot of pressure. Now, I had to create and let him know that it didn't matter. Now, he was struggling with learning, but his social skills were so well-formed, it's unbelievable. And he wouldn't come here and live here without everybody knowing him. I'm just telling you how life is.

This sounds a little bit like someone else I know. He wouldn't come here and live here without anybody knowing him. He would either cause a problem or he would come and spend time with you or something. Now, as we started building up his confidence level, because all that interaction with his sister was creating some, I wouldn't say lack of confidence was affecting him. As I pulled him out from the two of them, I said, look, what is important is you run your race very well, and you will do well. We spent more time with him in terms of tutoring. I started engaging his teachers a bit more.

I separated them, okay, and let him run his own course. Guess what? He's doing just as well as his sister. He perhaps needs to read a bit more, but who cares? The end result is the same. So if I deconstruct what I just learned from you, is that if somebody is struggling with not fitting in, feeling part of it, like their physical form

or even intellectual form is not up to standard, to the status quo. What I hear you saying is the job for us is to figure out what makes them special. Absolutely. And then, and even like sometimes separating people to help them flourish. Yes. And there was a gift that my father-in-law gave my wife and I when we got married. And the gift was an insight. And he said, a relationship is like logs and a flame. If the two logs are too heavy and they are too close to each other, there's not enough space and oxygen to have a bright fire. So the space between is really important. And so it sounds like that's what you have sorted out for your child. And then what would you directly say to somebody that came to you and said, oh my gosh, I feel like I don't fit in.

Like I'm not good enough because I'm too this or too that, too tall, too short. There's no such thing. There's no such thing. I think if you work hard enough, I mean, some people have a natural flair for certain things, natural flair. But I think if you work hard enough, you will get to a comfort zone that is acceptable. And when you say comfort zone, you mean a sense of acceptance of yourself? Acceptance of yourself and people understanding and accepting you as being competent. I mean, I may not be the brightest person, but honestly, once you have the skills to work with people who are bright enough,

all right, you may find out that you will do so much better than they're doing, if you get the point I'm trying to make. Some people don't need to read too well to do extremely well in examinations. What does it matter? I need to study a bit more, and the more I study, we'll get the same grades, or we get to the point at which the grades don't even matter anymore, if you get the point I study, we'll get the same grades or we get to the same, to the point at which the grades don't even matter anymore. If you get the point I'm trying to make. So it doesn't matter the circumstance. I think you can build yourself to the point where you can be seen to have done extremely well in whatever you've chosen to do. Finding Mastery is brought to you

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now let's go back to age 11, or age 3, when you were ostracized and felt shunned. Not really ostracized, but I was withdrawn because they didn't know what was wrong with me.

They didn't know if it was contagious. All right? And that's why I must cherish all mothers, by the way. When you hear people praise their mothers, it's only a mother that can sit with you irrespective of the circumstance. Fathers may boast, but mothers,

there's nothing you can do about it. Nothing, Nothing. I maintain close enough relationships with both of them, but you can never forget. You can't forget your mother. It's impossible. I mean, when I'm talking

about forget, deep inside you, in everybody's core, you cannot take away mother. Where do you feel that right now as you're speaking? I feel it is emotional because as they age, you then start to see another perspective, all right?

And you realize all the commitments they made to you and that what you've become today is a lot of it is as a result of the efforts and things that they did to you. But parents contribute, by the way. All right. But, you know, who do you spend more time with? And who is the custodian of your values? Really?

Really? It's your parents, but your mother, at least in our culture, because you spent a lot more time with her. What were one or two or three of the main character values that your mom instilled or cultivated for you? I'll share one with you. Stand up to any bully. You must stand up to any bully. I'll tell you what happened. Is this courage?

Bravery? I have to tell you this story. I had a younger brother who was very rascally in school. So he was never bullied. I was smaller as a child and each time in class I was bullied. And I kept asking myself, how long am I going to keep living like this?

And when I got to, my mother would say, what happened? And I would start talking about how somebody was bullying me. And she told me, how does your age mate bully you? How do you allow it to happen? I'm telling you what she bullying me. And she told me, how does your age mate bully you? How do you allow it to happen? I'm telling you what she told me. And I was wondering, how am I going to stand up to this guy?

My mother told me, do whatever you need to do. Nobody can bully you. Your age mate, you have to fight it through life. So let me tell you what happened in Port Harcourt. It was raining. And there's a girl I'll speak about

because she's late now. Her father used to be Joe Garba, if you guys remember him. Good. It was raining heavily in Port Harcourt, and this boy spoke. I raised up my hands and said something, and he felt, oh, my God, what I said was not right to him, whatever it was. And he said, I will see you after class. He was at least two and a half times my size. Should I tell you what I did?

I said, we have to see today after class. I took a pair of dividers and nothing is a good thing from a math set. And I put it in my pocket and I said, instead of this guy doing anything to me today, we will have

to take it all the way to the end. How old are you? At this time, I was about nine. So, and they could have expelled us from school. I'm just, I'm giving you experiences of things that happened. And that was when my parents allowed me to go to the north. After school, he ran straight to me, this bully. Everybody thought I was dead.

And we got into this fight. We started fighting and I pulled him out. I was not afraid. I was so confident in my mind about that fight. I pulled him out. We both fell into a gutter in a place called Potakot where it was raining cats and dogs. This big bully became very like a puppy

if you get the point I'm trying to make. And we fought through it. The divider I put in my pocket what is a divider if it's in the mathematical set like a compass you have a compass in a mathematical set you have it it's two prong is sharp oh my god yes yes yes yes okay so i was prepared for for it but you know when i was resting against the against the um oh you you are scrappy i'm just getting the image right yeah yeah and you know our when I was resting against the... Oh, you are scrappy. I'm just getting the image right now. Yeah, yeah.

And, you know, our uniform was white and white. White and white. That was the uniform. So the divider actually pierced into my thighs. But I didn't feel it at the time of that fight. But I actually beat up this guy who was more than two times my size. So there was a girl called Fatima Garba, whose father was, he's retired, he's late now, General Garba's daughter, who was watching.

I was very close to her in school. She refused to go because she was worried about what was going to happen at the outcome of that fight. I got home. You know what my mother said? She said she didn't even say a word. She knew that something would have happened. And I went, had a shower.

I was dredged completely. My younger brother was watching this fight and I changed and she said what happened I said no that I had to fight with that guy because he was about to beat me up she didn't even ask any questions says okay from that day nobody came near me in school so when I said i was going to school up north she felt i had the stealth and all of that to cope with whatever it was that i was going to meet in the north how do you describe that part of you that has that moxie like what what is that about you

that at age 11 i think it was or 10 and a half that your mom said i trust that you will be able to figure out life. Yeah. What is that about you? Because I before you before you answer last night, I was thinking about this conversation. And I thought to myself, I have never met anyone in my life like you. And I couldn't figure out what it was. Obviously, you're smart and charismatic. And like, there's a way about you that everyone would nod their head and say, yeah, you know, that's Herbert's way. But there's something fundamentally different about you. And to me, it sounds like it was revealed at maybe age eight or seven, something enough time for your mom to say, these are extraordinary times, extraordinary conditions. And I trust that my 10 and a half, 11-year-old son can figure out life? I don't know what it is, but I just think that, I don't know what it is. I just think it's your family values. But I think I've also been

extremely, extremely lucky in life. The friends I've kept have been very lucky. And we've supported ourselves through life. And we've known what our weaknesses are. And in times of trouble, we've been there. I've also surrounded myself with people who are strong, are still internally. And even in my weakest moments, it has dropped off on me. Some of them very, very emotional, but I don't think it's something we should talk about now. And in the middle of battle... Can you give me a hint of what that means?

And we don't have to go any further than you're comfortable with. I know this is in a public setting, but... No, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. I mean, it's just that it's not... You know, when you're... I ran into... First of all, in building access,

one of the things that was clear to us was that we had to keep this quickie clean image. Absolutely. And because of the negative perception around Nigeria, at the slightest dot, everybody says, yeah, that's right. You know, they're all the same and all of that. Two years ago thereabouts, I ran into a very, very big storm. A storm so unprecedented. And I asked my partner right there, I said, should I resign?

I asked him. And he says, you can't. I said, no, I can't stand this pain. And he said, I know it's painful, but you have to be there. Now, a couple of things. How did he just show up? He wasn't around. How did you show up immediately at the time of trouble? It must

have hit him as well, if you get the point I'm trying to make. If I had two seconds and I was going to die, I would ask my wife to give me a minute. Let me speak to him. And he came in. In the middle of that crisis,

he was ready to trade places with me. Now, the reason I'm mentioning it is that we have built ourselves together. And so whether it's in good times or in bad times or whatever we do, I just think that you must have that partner that you can infinitely trust, particularly as you're building things

like what we're doing, all right, that will always be there for you. That's basically it. How did you build that trust with him? Trust is a foundational skill. So I'll share with you. It's just amazing how we could have grown up in exactly the same circumstances.

So he did almost the same kind of thing I did. He went to school in the north. And when he tells his story about left on a tarmac, it's exactly the same story that happened to me, but he told the story a bit differently. I'm just giving an example. If you ask people who went to school in the far north, most of them would have had pretty much the same kind of experience. So it built a certain level of independence and courage in each of us. You couldn't have been a spoiled child, irrespective of how wealthy your parents were. The fact that you were growing up with other children in different circumstances, you had to travel that far and to live and to learn how to study on your own.

It had to build over that. Anyway, we had parents who shared the same background. So our values in life were not 99%, 110% aligned. Now, it's a bit rare. We worked in an institution together, even though we had known ourselves somewhat. But we were competing against ourselves.

But in the middle of that competition, it's something extremely important to access. If he had a situation, wherever I was, I would have to leave to come and support him. So that was how the chemistry built up. And there were big situations. I mean, a lot of people may not know

Titi would know but there were very very very very difficult circumstances and even if I was ill and it happened several times I would have to come back from wherever I was now it was one step it was one step ahead of me out there but it didn't matter

so I would come back and we would work together if it had difficulties I would be the first person who would know so that trust and everything we did together all right over time and we're tested you know just just continue to build on the trust and where we came into access it was also a very interesting test of our partnership because I recall at the most difficult board meeting ever, if we hadn't been brought in, we probably would have been in jail. And we saw our fate swinging, and they refused to call it a board meeting, and we said we needed to come into the bank.

And there were questions as to what do we do with the existing management. And we took a position amongst ourselves we're either coming together at what we wanted or we don't come in at all or we you know just do whatever we needed to do that was this early days in the building of your bank oh yes this was just before we got it it's a very interesting interesting story. Around 2000? 2002. 2002. Yes, May 20. That board meeting was May 20th. So we had that board meeting and that board meeting was either

they were going to fight with us, take us to the regulators, or call an extraordinary general meeting, or call the security agencies, any of them, or call the stock exchange. But any of them

could take us into very serious trouble. But we're armed and we have been trained psychologically. I mean, the greatest training by fire is your mind. That mental health and prayer is so important.

Training your mind, mental health, and prayer. Oh, it is. You can't even begin to talk about it because at the final moments, at the final moments, nothing else matters because if a decision, any other decision was taken,

definitely would have gone to jail. So you had to, while we're doing that board meeting and lawyers were engaging themselves and all of that, there was a split second and somebody said, but you know, in the old access

where the first people who brought money have not received dividends, I'm just trying to cut short a very long and interesting story which one day will be written. In a split second, out of our soul, we didn't even know what happened.

We started to make a presentation. We did that presentation in 10 minutes, all of 10 minutes flat. And everybody said, we have to give these guys a chance. That changed the whole narrative. Because we saw it happening. There was a high, okay, you're coming from a

good institution. The next one is, because the bank was owned by a couple of people and their relatives. Where's Yabo? Yabo, is she here? Yabo is very familiar with this story. So, I mean, at that time, the thought of even being able to do it was just crazy. Now, we couldn't share with our spouses what we're doing. You can't.

I mean, if you have a problem, you have to talk to me. I'm talking to my partner. So if you couldn't sleep at night, we have to talk to ourselves only. How do you tell your partner you are taking them through this type of journey? It's not possible because we had a great career where we're coming from. So we stepped out of that comfort zone into something that, into something that could be anything as we're creating right now, all right? And so everybody thought we were crazy. What happened? I'm missing part of the story in my mind that there was something illegal, it sounds like, that maybe... Not illegal, not illegal. It's not white or black, it's gray. It's not illegal.

It's not illegal. In your own part of the world, they'll say it was a hostile acquisition. Wholesale. Hostile. Hostile acquisition that you did. Yes, in your part of the world. But we said it was not hostile.

It was just a bootstrap acquisition. We had to create a new name for it, which was not illegal, really. But it depends on whose side you are on. So that's what it was. So if you had a mad person on the other side, you could say this is hostile. So in other words, there was a company

that was not surviving well. And you came in and said, I'm going to save it with X, Y, Z resources. And you borrowed everything, against everything you had. You did. Yes. You leveraged everything.

So if it went bad, that's the end. You see that guy who was climbing that? What do you guys call that? Madman. That free climber? Free climber. He's not any different. He's just a different professional. I love it.

You leveraged everything? Completely. Absolutely. Our children were not wearing foreign clothes. We used to sew clothes, local materials. We turned it into a trend as if that was the real thing. But it was lack of money. And then does that mean that you came from, did your original, your mother and father, did you guys have wealth?

Or was it, I don't know what the class structures are for you. There were civil servants. There was absolutely no wealth. But there was strong values. Okay. There was strong education.

If you get the point I'm trying to make. Now the civil service structure, many years ago, had the very best people. In fact, when you said you were a businessman, they looked down on you. If you get the point I'm trying to make.

Civil service, lecturers, educators, they had the best values, best values. And what you found at that time was that children of civil servants and educators were people who did best in school because they were around the value system and all of that. So they didn't give us, if you want to know whether our parents gave us a dime,

I have looked after my parents since I was 23. And by the way, they got to the best of their careers and very, very successful careers at that. So it was not a dime from any of them. So it was just hard work. And so how much were you risking at the time that you bootstrapped the acquisition? Were you risking a lot? Yes.

You were. We risked everything. You had been successful. We risked everything. We risked everything we had. Beautiful. Down to anything that was of value was on the table. Why? Why?

Why? Because we felt we could create something better, bigger, and more exciting. We felt that the institution we worked for was truly a great institution, but we felt that the founders, and by the way, we were the first executive directors apart from the founders, we felt that the founders

had started thinking like people who had self-actualized. And that if we stayed there, it would create a platform large enough for us to explore ourselves. That was the reason. And so, you know, creating another oasis of sanity,

getting people to work in the institution, creating a larger institution, you know, was going to be a lot more fun for us. Anybody here could have been working anywhere. Anywhere. But the fact that they chose to come to work here

means that there's something different that they're looking for. How many people were employed at the time of 2002? Yeah, but there were what? 280-something people? Up to?

Less than 300 people. Less than 300. And current date, how many people are employed? What? What was it? 16,000 today. Congratulations. To everybody.

Yeah. To everybody. To everybody. Okay, so what... But the story is just beginning. Yeah. Your story with Access Bank. Our story is just beginning.

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We will create the largest retail franchise in the country, in the continent. That's what we'll do. We will prove to the world that just the same way Santander was created, that we can create a world-class institution. World-class, but its roots could have been in Africa, if you get the point I'm making. And we'll have our guys stand side-by-side

with people who work for J.P. Morgan, who work for Goldman Sachs, any of the great institutions of the world. No difference, no complex. Same skills, same drive. My greatest high is visiting. I've not shared this before. Each time I visit a subsidiary that is doing well,

and I see the young people, and by the way, I have quite a few in Ghana, who are doing well. It must be the equivalent of cocaine. I've never taken any drug in my life, but that must be how cocaine, what it does to people. You get high from seeing people do well. Yes, yes, yes. No amount of money is equal to it.

Tell me about your heart. You have a crisp mind. Your mind works well. It's fast. It's clear. It's articulate. You can manage complicated ideas down into a simple form.

I don't know if I manage complicated ideas. I think I'm just lucky that I have people who can around me and I share a lot. But I've been listening to you speak. And so you have a good mind. Tell me about your heart. It feels like that's equally as strong or maybe stronger. I think it's been trained. It's been trained year after year.

We've had some very, very interesting patches. And I've had people, of people who have had a stroke from pressure. That work here? No, not here. Okay, in your family? Not just in my family, just around. And I think it's been tested.

We've gone through our own fissure of that pain, and we're able to withstand it. Some of those pains go right down to the bottom of the soul of the institution. And when we've been asked, and this pounding of hearts you're talking about, honestly, can almost bust your shirt in the middle of the pain and when you are being tested. I think we've been trained well enough to make sure that on the balance we are stronger than average as far as my heart is concerned and capacity to absorb problems. And how do you get in your way? What do you do that trips you up or slows you down or confuses you about being the best version of you on a regular basis that confuses me well just what how do you get in your way is the the easy question there no i don't get into my own way no i mean obviously anxiety

comes but i know what to do to how to handle it how how do you manage step out I step out of that area I have to leave that area I look for one of my friends there's a friend that I have to look for wherever I is in the world and they just need to spend time with him and I'll be okay so you change your environment actually my environment I call that you people yeah you know sometimes it's not even the issue I discuss I just need to think about it a bit differently I mean some cases I give a hint at it if you get the point I'm making where did you go to school whether I go to school mm-hmm it

depends on which one several schools first degree Nigeria so we understand we're well grounded and routed out here then the two master's degrees that I have I did in the UK yeah okay and what did you learn during your advanced training education just helps to teach you about focus really at the end of the day I mean don't get it wrong it's important understanding concepts Gordon's growth rate model all of this is very important. But we have many friends who didn't finish from school, you know. There are many people who do not have to finish, take everything to the end.

Now, what we learned in school was how do you focus and have the best results. In Nigeria, having the best results is very important if your parents are civil servants or educators. So not being your best, but being the best. Yes, the best results. In Nigeria, having the best results is very important if your parents are civil servants or educators. So not being your best but being the best. Yes, the best. Now you may fall short but they will celebrate you because you still did well. But the whole idea was for you to be the best. I shared this story a long time ago. My late brother was a genius in math a complete genius you know it's not it was not we're celebrating him I think it was last December for some people who had passed on and when his name came up everybody said no he couldn't do anything about math without with this guy, he was four years, he was three years older.

And typical civil service house, this is the garage, this is the kitchen, this is the dining room, and then the living room. I don't know whether to call it the dining room, because the dining room and studying must be the same thing, because children are perpetually studying on that table. So, anyway, my brother had a weakness which was that he slept a lot.

And he had his exams coming. This was my brother who was a math genius. And my father walked in and found him sleeping over his book. Now, in America, this wouldn't have been tolerated.

He actually broke his briefcase on my brother's head. What? telling exactly what happened so yeah I was struggling as an average math student is this what they are doing to this math genius I went back to school I was the best in math until I graduated. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Okay. What does it mean to be Nigerian?

What does it mean to you? I know that's a big question. It's a big question, but I'll tell you what it means to me. It's great, great pride. Great pride. We come from one of the most illustrious countries in the world.

People can make fun out of anything. We have the most hospitable people in the continent, and I'm sure I can say it here. We are very welcoming to any person, irrespective of where you come from. Now, if you go to any other African countries, and we have brothers and sisters across the continent here, and you wanted to do business there, it would be a bit more difficult. And I'm not just talking, I'm just saying because of our culture, that is

how the country is. Now, but we're also aware of the stigma and issues around Nigeria, about 10,000 people, maybe less, who are giving the country a bad name. It's a big issue. But we're never, never, never, never ashamed of saying we're Nigerian.

Never. Never. Irrespective of the place, we're Nigerian. But I think what is important to all of us, particularly my generation and as we move on, is how do we just change the nature of leadership and get the right people for us to get to the rightful place. We're 200 billion people strong.

Some people say it's a disadvantage, but I think different. I think we can actually, all right, reap the benefits of that demography, if you understand what I'm saying. It can be a strength. And we have 65% of people 25 years and younger. I mean, China would hope that they could have that kind of population. I mean, in terms of the age and all of that, or Japan rather. You know, so it's, we need to just harness our full potentials.

We are reaching everything you can imagine. But we still have a leadership issue. Leadership issue. Yeah. Okay, what do you hope for the next generation? What do you hope that they get right? I think we must create solid institutions in terms of the next generation.

I think they must create strong institutions. And we must create solid institutions in terms of the next generation. I think they must create strong institutions. And we must create the foundation for it, all right, for Nigeria to actually be given a stride for place. If you're here in December, we started something which is, and it's not just Nigeria, it's Africa, by the way. Our thoughts are not just about Nigeria. We think larger because Nigeria is the most populous country in the continent, all right? One out of every four black people must be a Nigerian or five people must be a Nigerian. And so if somebody from Gambia is carrying a Nigerian passport,

you can never know. So the best thing is just to come up with something that is a solution for the entire continent. Now, somebody said yesterday, Africa is not on the world map in terms of economic activity, where people should look at, where is the next. All this story about growth is just story. I think

we need to support ourselves and look at the continent as one, in spite of our differences. So that when placed side by side, other continents, Asia, Europe, Americas, etc. People will see true value coming out of Africa. When you think of

the United States, what do you think? Big change. It's changed fundamentally over the past couple of years. We used to aspire to spend time out there. It doesn't mean much to us anymore. Again, it's a leadership issue. The racial tension that exists there

and the clear discrimination that is happening is a big issue. I mean, some of us don't have that problem, by the way. The greatest thing about Nigeria is that those racial issues we're not very conversant with. But when you start spending time in America these days and you see people,

and you talk to people, you feel it. I only experienced racial issues once in my life, not a direct experience, but I saw it from a distance. And it was in South Africa. We had just finished a road show. I'm not sure if it was there, Roosevelt. An investor road show. And we're going to get on the aircraft to come to Lagos.

And I and I were outside. As we drove in, this little boy came in a trolley to help us pick our luggage. Obviously looking for a tip. He did and we tipped him. And then we're waiting, you know, before departure. We're just standing outside

and talking and all of that. And this guy came in with his son, the younger generation, this Afrikaans guy. And this little black kid went again with the trolley. Michael, I don't speak Afrikaans, but I understood everything he said.

And the words that were coming out of this man, I saw that boy shrivel. I almost died in myself looking. But his son ran out of the car. Dad, you must not do that. You must not do that. That's the younger generation.

But remember, it's only 20 years. I mean, it's what, 25 years maybe? And we're shouting, Dad, you must not do that. And his father turned and saw us who were dressed in suits and he must have asked himself, who are these

guys? I don't know who they are. If you get the point I'm trying to make. So that was my only encounter in life with pure discrimination. Now, we have a complex in Nigeria. We have a superiority complex. That's the problem we have in Nigeria. So it's difficult for us to understand, but we saw it.

I saw it live that day. But I also understand that, and in going to the States, because I go ever so often, you will know the difference. You will see the difference and the change from policies all through. And by the way, I'm not saying that people should not stay where they come from, if you get the point I'm trying to make, but you can just see clear discriminatory policies. Yeah.

We feel them on a regular basis. And there is a real tension there that is unbecoming. Yeah. Yeah. We feel them on a regular basis and there is a real tension there that is unbecoming. Yeah. Is there a word that cuts to the center of what you understand most in life?

Or what I cherish most? Okay. I would use a word, not because I am fully aligned with it, but in everything that has happened to me, to my partner, and to most people in access to spirituality. And I know in a sense people will say

they are just speaking. But in our most difficult and trying moments, when we've fallen on it it it has always solved the problem I don't know how it solves the problem, the direct intervention God does or whether it's the calmness or whatever people have chosen to call it in good English you know

it has always solved the problem we've had very, some very trying moments and if you spend enough time in Nigeria you know you would find out that religion plays a very important role. And by the way there are also rogue, what do they call them, you find people who just parry themselves as being stronger in religion. But for some of us who've been privileged of meeting very strong men of God, apart from the work that we do,

when those problems do come and that storm is at its peak, and we find that time, and that time doesn't exceed five minutes, the courage and what it does to us and how the problem is solved is something I can't explain. All the problems, all, without exception. Where does pressure come from? Where does pressure come from? In the system? No, like how do you think about the concept of pressure?

Where does it come from? Human pressure. I'll tell you what it means. Fear of failure. My greatest fear in life. I can't... It's better you take my life than fail. Than I fail. I'm just telling you

articulating the business that we do. That's my greatest, greatest fear. What does failure mean to you? Failure means letting down 16,000 people. Failure means letting down 16,000 people. Failure means letting down 16,000 people. By extension, you're letting down maybe 100,000 families. I'm just telling you my own perspective.

It may not mean anything to you. It does. Well, what I feel when you say that is, as we're sitting across from each other, that you're animated with that responsibility. My whole life is around it. My blood siblings cannot be equal to the people that are here. I'm saying children born from the same father and mother are not equal to these people here, to me. It doesn't matter.

I mean, everybody's different. I'm just saying how my own life has been built up. It may be different when I leave, but for as long as I'm here, the people who are here mean so much more to me. You really do have a love relationship. Yeah. What a gift for myself and our company, Compete to Create, to be here with you. And we are honored that you have chosen us to work with you.

And when we first got the call, I thought, what could I possibly add? What could we possibly add? And as we started to understand your company said oh they're on to something and so i just want to say what an honor for us to be here so thank you for including us in your mission thank you but um how did we find you we we i read a book um hits hit refresh. And I was struggling in my mind with where we are. And asking myself,

obviously I speak a lot with Roosevelt. With Roosevelt. Oh, yes. And a gentleman that you meet at some point in time. And I was struggling, struggling, struggling with how do I get, or how do we get everybody to take it to

the very next level. As I read that book, which is the best autobiography I've read, and I read a lot of biographies, and I like those of presidents, I like, as I was reading that book, I could not stop until I finished. And when he spoke about you and the work you had done for them in Microsoft, I said, anybody who could have done this work here, I think it's going to be a child's play for him to just come and do it with us. And if we can just harness 50% of our potentials,

it's going to be totally different. Now, there is fatigue in most institutions over time. And you have, because of our rate of growth, and because we've grown inorganically, pursuing a goal, you find a lot of distractions. For me, anybody who can help all of us to align our thoughts our minds to that common vision and culture and know what it means to support ourselves through life and what we're doing it will ignite a different type of institution because everybody inclusive of some of them who

are not part of this story today who have left have truly had a role to play in this institution perhaps we didn't treat institution. Perhaps we didn't treat them well. Perhaps we didn't know how to bring out the best in them. Maybe, if you get the point I'm making, some of them have left and they're not bad people. Alright? It is true that people will continue to live, but I ask myself, some of the people

who have left are good people. If we had done this differently, would they have been here? Would the institution be different? People who have spent so much time, made so much sacrifice, did we need to send all of them away? I mean, people, there is a natural attrition that would happen. But if we get it right now, even at this stage,

what would happen to this institution? I don't think we have a second. The next institution can only be half our size, half our profits, and all of that. Because if you want to know what it means to run a bank, try and do a proper acquisition.

It's okay to run banks that are settled and you're just doing the same thing, the culture is the same. If you want to know what it means to take a bank to a new level, do an acquisition, get out of your comfort zone and all of that, which is what we're doing. And so we need everybody alike. That's the greatest thing. And that's how we learned about you. But thank you very much. Thank you. Yeah, too much. Okay. Before we wrap up here, thank you for that. It's not lost on me. And how do you finish this statement? I am. How would I finish it? I am part of a team

that must create the greatest banking history in Africa. You've got people standing for that. Why does that goal matter so much to you and your team? Because one part of the story I did share with you was the fact that I got a job in an investment bank in New York after I finished one of the postgraduate degrees I did Salmon Brothers and there was some form of discrimination based on where I went to college ie not in the. not in the U.S. You know, normally they would like people if you went to Harvard, it's very good, Princeton, you know, all of that kind of stuff.

But I was coming from somewhere, I was speaking with my very good Nigerian accent, you know. And we went through that interview process. We got to the final stage, and I got the job, so it was not an issue. And I started asking myself, this is so beautiful. I mean, look at what is being created. When you walk into the head office building, beautiful, you know? So when they told me how much I was going to be paid,

and I was walking around Upper East Side Manhattan looking for the appropriate neighborhoods, like I grew up here. I said, this whole salary is going to be paid. I'll spend this whole money on rent. I will not even be able to eat for the rest of my life. And that was how I started coming back. But that process, as I was thinking about it, I said to myself, we could do something interesting back in Nigeria.

If we're in England, we'll have a banking license in London. People will be living in Hackney and all of those type of places. But by coming home and establishing ourselves the way we have, we have a full and strong bank in London. By the end of this year, we'll have a strong bank in Hong Kong. We'll have a strong bank in Dubai. We will be present in New York. So people don't see us as a set of underdogs out there in the States.

No, people who are coming and are built in their continent stand side by side, their parents out there. It's so important to my whole psyche. That's awesome. Yesterday when you were speaking, Courtney from Compete to Create, and I looked at each other and both said, one, we'd love to work here,

and two, because the culture you're creating, and two, we'd love to give you money. And like, because we believe in the way that you're approaching leadership and the vibrancy that you have of your people, that your people demonstrate, I should say. And so it really feels like you're onto something special and you're wanting to double down, invest more evidence by bringing us out and other people like us probably out to your company. Okay. So what is the greatest habit

that you have that helps you become you that you'd like to share with other people? Like, what are those habits that you have? I have a very inquisitive mind. I share a lot with people who are close to me. And I'm talking about professional problems. We don't work. We have a different type of leadership. And the leadership is more collaborative. I'm not saying there's anyone that is right,

and I don't think there's anyone who has a monopoly of knowledge. So I share a lot with my colleagues. I listen to them. If you enter our ex-school, sometimes you wonder if we're all in a fight. But the whole idea is we struggle to see, can we get the best consistency of what we're doing? I also have,

there's a technical word for it, I also have outside of the bank, people I spend time with just to have their own views, if you get the point I'm trying to make. And so that at the end of the day, we're taking the very best decision and all of that. So when people say,

oh, it's Habat's decision, or this is what Habat did, I'll be the first person to tell it's not me alone. It's a collaborative effort. Everybody. Because everybody's life is at risk in every decision that I take. And it's important to get

the pillars around them, alright, for all of us to share and agree on what to do. And if we're getting into battle, as we have several times, let's lock our arms together. And so what I hear you saying there is that there's a character strength

that is important to you, which is curiosity. And the way that you train or the habit that you have to train and cultivate that principle is by being in spirited conversations to look for consistency. And then to go outside of your known environment to have conversations around other people. So that's how you feed the principle of curiosity. Even if I say it myself, I probably don't share it with people.

I know so much about most people than they think I do. I can predict within my mind, I may not show it, a lot about what each person, and everybody on this table, maybe they don't even know, I know so much about their responses than they think I do. Because of that curious mind. I may not display it. I may not let you know that that's what I know and all of that.

But I spent time and maybe I'm just lucky as well and gifted and I have people who have over time helped train those instincts in me. You know, so yeah. Okay, and then the other last, there's two questions I have. One is an important book that you would hope people would read that helped shape you.

I'm ready to buy that book for everybody here. What is that book? The first one, which was the most important book, most everybody knows about it, is Buy Out. Buy Out. Oh, yeah. Very great book. Great book. The only thing about not encouraging people to read it is that they start thinking of how to go and set up their own business.

That's not we want it. Because what it just tells you is some of the things you've spoken about. History will only favor the brave. If you don't try something, you don't get it. It's not just as simple as that. And if you want to understand and you're truly as good as you say you are, go and do it. So all this mastery you've been talking about,

your mind, your skills, your brain, your body, everything is brought to bear that day you say you want to attempt it. And you can't make a mistake because there's no fallback. How do you define or articulate? Last question. How do you articulate or define mastery? It's about bringing all of those elements together positively in the pursuit, whatever you're pursuing. So let me give an example.

Until I started having a little problem with my knee, I used to run, but I would run 10Ks, I would run 12Ks, et cetera. And I tried to do half a marathon in good time. I thought it was impossible. But the day I was determined to do it, and this must be scientific as it happened, psychologically, I was absolutely prepared. There was a young man who was running with me that day. I had to send the driver because he actually broke his,

he physically, he, what do you call it? Let me just say he sprained his ankle, but it was beyond that. And I never knew that these things can actually take their toll on you like that. And as soon as we got to 18Ks, my whole body broke out. I thought I was going to die, actually. Broke out in, I was sweating already. It just broke out. But once I went past it,

it just, it became free run. As I had the courage to just continue, it was free run. Now, what am I saying? I'm saying that you can train your mind if you really want to do something. You can train your body. Don't get me wrong. You will feel that pain. I will tell you about that pain. It happened to us here. And once you have the appropriate skills, you'll do it. In 2000 and what year? It was 2010, right? 2008. 2008.

We the bank that we bought into had share capital that was less than $20 million. And we woke up and then they said share capital was being taken to a quarter of a billion dollars. And we had one year. It was part of what I was sharing yesterday. And we're under phenomenal pressure. Remember that we had just exhausted our whole life

in leverage. And so if the institution had a problem, we're dead. And we started this run. We had to make sure the bank was making money, very profitable. And we had to raise this capital. But we had limited time for this capital. And you know, for the people who are here, the guys who are

under are watching you, are watching you, are getting feedback, and are knowing how is this guy going to, how this guy is going to solve this problem. So we had a lot of people who were just watching and trying to understand, is this the end of this institution, etc., etc., and that put us under

phenomenal pressure. So one day, this is a gory story, but I'll clean it up as much as I can. The only time I spend time with my wife generally is in the morning

as I'm trying to go to work. She's following me all over the house because by the time I come back she's gone to bed. She said, you're not well. I said, no, don't worry. I'll see the doctor today.

As I got on top of that bridge, she called my parents. He's dying. He's dying. So my parents, I said, no, don't worry about this. There's no problem. I'm going to see the doctor today and I'll solve the problem. I didn't realize my partner was going through exactly the same problem. But we didn't share. It was too

private and too delicate to share. When I went to see the doctor, he wanted to pass a big pipe through my backside so that it would reveal everything in my body. As soon as I saw what he wanted to pass through me, I told him I was coming. I needed to go back to the office.

And I ran away from the doctor. I said, why can't you treat me and assume that I have that problem? Why must you take me through this process? So I left it and I ran. One day, as we were managing, doing a stakeholder management call, we went somewhere.

Just my partner and I were driving, and it just gave us enough time to talk to ourselves. And as we got to my house, house he said how about I'm in continent I said I think I know what that means but you have to explain to me in real terms what you are telling me he says I think I'm in continent I said no no no I think you just need to go

is it diarrhea or something what is the problem so he went to bed, and I went back into my house. At about 2 a.m., I got a call from the hospital that I needed to come. I went to the hospital. So hospitals are supposed to be calm, the nurses were nervous, I was scared stiff. So I gave my blood, we were waiting, then I left. They said they needed to evacuate him. So his wife had a, no, her passport was not with her. So we had to start making arrangements

for an air ambulance. Now, for me, it was such a, that experience of putting somebody who is that close to you on that plane, it's very traumatic. To some people, they'll say emotional, no, but to me, because of

the way we've lived our lives, it's an integral part of your life. It was a very, very painful and traumatic experience. And you know, it tells us also a bit about things that will be important to us later. The most important thing to me was to make sure his wife

and children got on the plane with him and provided him the support mentally as we were making that trip. Of course, the next day I went to see what was happening. What caused all of this? Pressure. It was not that we were doing anything wrong. No, no. I mean, we were physically fit.

Properly. We were physically fit. We were used to working from 8 o'clock till 2 a.m. every day of our lives. Now, everybody didn't need to be there. It was people like Roosevelt, Yabo, et cetera, the senior team that were actually doing those type of hours. You know, one day, it was then I learned that there was, in the past, when you get into an airplane,

you see some older people give something to the air hostess you know, keep this, I used to wonder what are they doing, what are all these gadgets and all that I didn't know there were things, there were medication and I didn't know we kept a particular temperature perpetually so when we came out of hospital, my partner

so when we get on the plane he'll bring out something, we'll put it, we'll call the air hostess on the airplane, and they know exactly what to do with it. One day, we forgot to put it in the fridge, because you take it from the hospital, you keep it in the fridge, you put it in the fridge in the car, like that. And so that medication lost its potency.

The doctor started screaming at us, see how young you are and you are killing yourself. What is this ambition? What are you trying to achieve that nobody else, I mean, must you do it? I'm just trying to tell you.

There is no, as we say in Nigeria, no pain, no gain. If you want to do great things, get ready for that discomfort. It must come. If not, then you just live like an average person.

You can work in first bank. You stay there, work for 30 years and retire. It's a type of life. If that's the kind of life you want to live. But if you want to create great things, you want to actually shatter boundaries, it's a different type of life. But after that, we then realize

that there's a different way to manage ourselves. And perhaps if we had learned it earlier, we would have done it. So we do break, take out time. You go to a health spa for one week. Just take out that one week, and you'll be fine. So we've also come up with a lot of learnings on how to manage ourselves in the future. And, of course, I've shared it with my colleagues so that that pain and problem which we went through,

they don't necessarily need to go through the same route. Brilliant. Thank you. Thank you again for the time. Thank you for the insights. And is there any way that I can ask you

to give the Access Warrior a shout? We do that every time. It's a shout. The battle cry. The battle cry. We learned that through time. It's a shout. The battle cry. The battle cry. We learned that through the various battles that we were fighting. And there was a movie we all

shared. Sorry? 300. And you know when is the equivalent of locking arms together? We die together or we swim together. But nobody must be left behind. Access Warriors!

On out! On banks! Unbroken! Access Warriors! On out! On banks! Unbroken! Access Warriors! On out! On banks! Unbroken! My God, thank you. Oh, thank you. Thank you. Oh, thank you. Thank you.

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