Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - How Surfing's World Champ is Reinventing Herself | Carissa Moore

Episode Date: November 10, 2021

This week’s conversation is with Carissa Moore, one of the most prolific surfers on the world stage.At age 18, Carissa became the youngest person – male or female – to win a surfing world title and was the first woman to compete in the Triple Crown of Surfing, Hawaii’s most prestigious contest series featuring the world’s best male surfers. This year, Carissa became the first surfer in history to win a WSL world title and Olympic Gold Medal in the same year. This was also the first time the Olympics included surfing as a competition so Carissa was the first woman to ever win Gold in this event.I was fortunate enough to work with the U.S. Surfing Team in Tokyo – it was incredible – all of it.The team dynamics, being able to play a part in representing the United States of America, and to support the four surfers in their competitive pursuits. In this conversation, we discuss some of the ingredients for Carissa to win Gold in Tokyo: the support system she had growing up, her approach to preparing for high stakes competition, and why her ideal competitive mindset has evolved over the years. _________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash finding mastery. Now this week's conversation is with Carissa Moore, one of the most dynamic surfers on the world stage. At age 18, Carissa became the youngest person, male or female, to win a surfing world title. And she was the first woman to compete in the triple crown of surfing. And that's Hawaii's most prestigious contest. So this year, Carissa became the first surfer in history to win a WSL world title and Olympic gold medal in the same year. This was also the first time the Olympics included surfing as a competition. So Carissa was the first women to ever win gold in this event. I was so honored to work with the US surfing team in Tokyo. I mean, it was incredible.

All of it, the team dynamics. I mean, just being able to play a part in representing the United States of America and to support the four surfers in their competitive pursuits. I mean, like I said, there's not a better word. Like the whole thing was incredible. And in this conversation with Carissa, we talked through some of the ingredients for her to win gold in Tokyo. The support system she had growing up, her approach to preparing for high stakes competition, the relationships in her inner circle

that mattered so much to her, and also why her ideal competitive mindset has evolved over the years. And I'm so stoked to introduce Carissa to our community. I can't wait to hear what you feel and how you think differently and what you might practice differently in your life after listening to this conversation. And with that, let's jump right into this week's conversation with a flat out legend, Carissa Moore.

Carissa, how are you? I'm good. How are you? I believe all of that, you know, the way you say it, but also just watching what you've done over the last, what is it, three months now? You know, like Olympics and world championships and, and, and like, first of all, congratulations. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much. Where do we really start?

Because, you know, your last handful of months have been phenomenal, but that's not winning is not new to you. Yeah. I mean, I think it's, it's been such a special time because it's been an accumulation of a journey right and I just felt like the Olympics was really special and you kind of got to see all the behind the scenes stuff and all the emotions that went behind that and then getting to win my fifth world title there were different special moments there that I'm super excited to share with you because I know

in your field um there's just, there was a crazy in both of those just crazy mental challenges that I felt like any other year I wouldn't have been able to overcome, but because of the journeys and experiences I've had up until this point, I've been, I was able to take them head on. So yeah, it's been a really beautiful time and season of my life. So let's start with some of the framework stuff that like early, you know, framework stuff from early childhood that allowed you to get to a place eventually to be able to meet these things head on. Because you're right. You met every challenge at the Olympics head on. And Karch Karai, one of the greatest, you know, winners of all time in the Olympics and professional sport as a volleyball player, he said something that really stands out for me. He goes, nobody reaches a podium without staring down a double

barrel shotgun. And so would you, would you nod your head to that? Like, yeah, I understand that. Yes, I definitely, yeah, I understand it. Like it, it's not easy and there's a reason why there's only one person standing there at the end of the day, you know? So it takes like just a lot of time and the, like I think I told you when we were in Japan, like for me, it's like constant work, especially like you're what's between the ears. It controls everything else. And so being

able to perform at your, at our best, we have to make sure it's clear. And for me, I'm like, there's constant thoughts every single day that I have to, to work through. You're not alone, right? Like me, me too. And this is like, this is my profession. So, but when you say it, it sounds so clear. It sounds so practical, which is, listen, I'm always working on my psychology. And what others get to see is like how I turn on a wave or how I set up the next section or like people see that part of my craft. But if you could pull back like the curtain, you'd see a lot of work. You'd see like some arguments with myself, some laughter with myself, some doubt with

myself. You'd see a lot of things, you know? So is there a general theme that runs for you underneath the surface? Well, there's been, I feel like there's been a few different themes over the years, especially during my world title runs and stuff. There's always a theme that I'm chasing after or an overarching theme that will help me stay on track when things get tough. But I think if I were to share something that maybe has changed over time, that voice has

changed from something that has been super doubtful like hard on myself to a more encouraging and positive voice. And I'm just going to bring up the fifth world title day for a moment, the finals day for competing for my first fifth world title was a different format, completely different format this year, where they took the top five men and women, um, after the season's ending ranking and they took them to a showdown and it was the best surfer in that day that would end up taking the world title home and luckily I won the season so I was fortunate enough to have the first seeding going into the finals day so that meant I waited for my matchup and with that matchup I would have the best out of three and in my head going in,

I was like, okay, well, let's get this over with quicker rather than later. Let's win the first two and let's just call it a day. I mean, leading up to it, my dad- Wait, wait, wait. Was that from an anxious standpoint or is that from just a very practical, like, listen, I don't want to be here longer than I have to be. And I doubt it's that, but was it more from an anxious standpoint, or is that from like a, just a very practical, like, listen, I don't want to be here longer than I have to be. And I doubt it's that, but was it more from an anxious standpoint? Maybe a little bit of the anxious standpoint for sure. But also just like, Hey, like in, in my best case scenario, dream scenario, it'd be like, okay, I would just win this out. Right. And like, you know, less stress, you know, but then I've had lots of conversations with my dad leading up to the finals day and he's my day-to-day coach. He has been since I was little. So, you know,

there's a lot of trust there and we have a great relationship. And he was like, Hey, just be prepared to surf those surf three heats, surf all three heats, you know? And so it was cool because we actually trained all those days leading up. We would, we would kind of simulate what the day would look like. So I'd surf 30 minutes, I'd come in for five, I'd surf 30 minutes, I'd come in for five and I'd surf 30 minutes. And I think for me in, to give myself a chance at optimal performance, that confidence comes from checking all my boxes and making sure, you know, I've done everything I possibly can. So if I do come to these uncomfortable positions, I've already handled them. I've already been in them. So a little sidetrack note there,

but anyway, so. No, this is actually materially important because you, what I hear you saying is, listen, when I get into the water, I want to feel confident. And actually, Mike, I want to be and feel confident everywhere I go. But in this context, you know, when I get in the water, I want to feel confident. And one of the mechanisms that I use is to make sure that I've got five boxes, whatever the number is of things that I want to make sure I've experienced and done. And I own quotes. Right. And, and that allows you to speak to yourself. I'm adding a bit here that allows you to speak to yourself like, Oh, I can go do this. Yes. Right. Okay. So what does it sound like inside your head when you feel confident? And we'll come back to the story in just a minute, but when you feel like totally switched on, what does that feel like? Oh, I just feel like, like there's just this like inner light that I just feel like can't

be dampened. You know, like I just, like, I have a smile on my face. There's joy. There's this excitement. There's no, there's no fear or doubt. There's just like, I'm ready. I'm just, I want to give it everything that I have. And if it doesn't work out, there's also this piece. I think that that's a huge part of it is that piece. So, yeah. Okay. There you go. All right.

So listen, I want that for myself every day too. That sounds like, I bet that what you just described might seem really personal because it is it's your life and your inner life I think that that is quite universal I think most people want that and then what ends up happening maybe what we'll do later in the story is we'll talk about when it's opposite of that yes you know right Like what are the conditions, the internal conditions and the external conditions that make it hard to find that sense of centeredness? And then, you know, because I, I experienced those too, you know, like we all do. And so you have a lot to teach though. And so pin in that, let's go back to the story. And there's another pin too, which is, I want to go back to childhood, but like, we'll do that in a minute. Sorry. I kind of took it everywhere. No, I think I'm responding. Like, yeah, I think I was so excited to share this moment with you because the reason I'm telling this story is because this was an accumulation of my life's journey. And I lost the first matchup against Tatiana West and Webb. And I was a bit

rattled. I was like, that is not what I saw happening. You know, I was a little nervous and the nervousness affected my surfing and my decision-making. And I own that, you know, but I was like, I'm literally backed against the wall right now. I could lose the world title in this next heat if I don't step up and fight back. And when I was paddling in and catching my wave in to go to the locker room, I had 35 minutes. Most of the time we have an afternoon or a day or something to kind of wrap your head around and process it all. I had 35 minutes. So I went in the locker room and literally the voice of old risk came back. She's like, you didn't check all your boxes. You're not prepared. You're going to lose this. You're not strong enough. Like the, all the doubt and overthinking came rushing back. And I was

about to have a full blown meltdown. I actually did. I ended up like crying for a second. I was pacing back and forth. Like my team was just like, it's good. You've got this. Where's the wax? You know, they're trying to keep it simple. And my husband grabbed me. I can see your team right now. Like, okay, literally you're the best in the world. Okay. And you're, and you're, and you're upside down, completely psychologically upside down. And I can see the team going, no, no, no, we're good here. Like keep it. And by the way, keeping it simple is a great strategy. Yes.

I'm all about simple. Oh, it's a great strategy. So I can see it. It's like pins and needles. Nobody wants to screw anything up. And everybody knows that you're going to work through this. Yes. For the most part. Oh, no that you're going to work through this. Yes. For the most part.

Oh, no, you pause there. No, no, no. I said, yes. Like they, they kind of like, it was, it was also that moment though, that I realized like no one else can like save me here. Like I'm going to have to pull myself out, you know? And, but it was like really beautiful because my husband looked at me, he had like tears in his eyes and he's like, babe, like once in a week, I almost was like really beautiful because my husband looked at me, he had like tears in his

eyes and he's like, babe, like once in a week, I almost want to cry again because for me, this was more special than winning the world title was sorry. I cry every single time. It was that moment that he was just like, Hey, if anyone else can, if anyone can do this, you can, and I love you. And I just took a couple of deep breaths and I went to the water and I just like, I turned it around. I let it all go. And I said, Hey, like my theme for this year was freedom. And I was like, this is my moment to let it all go, to surf from my heart, go hard, give it everything I have. And if it doesn't work out, it's not meant to be. But at the end of the day, I can ground myself in love because that's true. And that's solid. And I love surfing. So I'm going to go and do those two things, you know? And I also was like, there was an acknowledgement of old risk. It was like, Hey, you're there. I see you. You're always going to

be a part of me, but not today. And so it was just like a really cool moment for me because, you know, through childhood, like we've talked about just the trauma and all the layers that are put on you and to be able to have this moment where I felt like this whole year and the few years that I've had up until this point, I've really kind of been growing into a woman and feeling more comfortable in my own skin and trusting my decisions and like backing myself and like not relying on other people's expectations and feeling good about what happiness and success looks like to me and, and doing it my way. So I think that's why this one felt really, really special. If that makes any sense. Like you just went through it it like this is the best part

of like looking back is that we get to relive special parts of our life you know and one thank you for sharing you know um how it was so special not just what happened like blow by boat but even inviting it into this conversation like letting yourself feel there and like, thank you. And your husband, it's really unique that you can have your husband in the back, you know, and your dad. And so you've structured it this way. Yes. And so what would you have hoped? Obviously he said what worked. Is that what you were craving? If you could have scripted what you wanted him to say, would it have been that? Because what he said was brilliant. It was. And just the way he said it too, you could tell there was like this unconditional love there. I don't know what I wanted him to say in that moment, but he,

he said exactly what I needed to hear. I think my whole team did, you know, I had my coach, Mitch Ross, who I worked with throughout this season. He was waxing my board. He was just helping to remind me of a few things to focus on when I paddled back out. I had my husband there. I actually called up the sports site that I work with all the time. And he gave me a few things to like, focus on and just like, Chris, you got this, you got this, you know, just hearing that validation was a little like, okay. And then of course, like my dad, who I've, who I've worked with since I was a little girl who taught me how to surf and I rode my first wave with, he was there as well. And he was just like, Hey, you got this, go out and have fun. And it was really great because when he was standing there, that was also another moment where I was like,

I've practiced this. I've been doing this. I've been simulating this moment. I've been putting in the time and I know how to do this. So, uh, I'm very grateful for my dad. He was a, you know, he wasn't a professional surfer, but he grew up a competitive ocean water swimmer and he had a, he was, he was strategy guy. And like, that's, you know, it was cool. Cause he ended up, he wasn't the best swimmer, but he ended up, he was one of the first people to body surf waves in on the ocean water swims. And so he was, he was like, he was the one who started that whole thing because he was thinking outside the box. So I'm very grateful because in my career, he's helped me to think outside my box and strive, always strive for more. But

he's also like, he's because he's with me to the day to day, he holds me accountable day to day. And there's always been pressure. There's always been dad on the beach watching everything, you know? So I think that I'm very grateful for that because it set me up for these moments. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentous. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday, what you put in your body matters. And that's why I trust Momentus. From the moment I sat down with Jeff Byers, their co-founder and CEO,

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Felix Gray is offering all Finding Mastery listeners 20% off. Just head to FelixGray.com and use the code FindingMastery20 at checkout. Again, that's Felix Gray. You spell it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com and use the code FindingMastery20 at FelixGray.com for 20% off. I've got a two-part question. The first part is, do you think that you surfed your best in the first, second and third heat? I think there was still another level of performance for me, but I think considering the circumstances, I am truly happy with my performance.

And with the support system that you have being deep and authentic and trusted, you have a luxury and potentially a bit of a trap door that always exists that you can outsource to your trusted loved ones. Tell me I'm okay. And that would be a bit of a trap door and a wonderful luxury. At the same time, early in our conversation, you're saying, listen, I go through my checklist. They help me structure a credible, real narrative that I can live by. Like I run my heats. I've done maybe mental imagery. I have my fitness is on point, my nutrition, you know, and there's a checklist. So it sounds like you want to have a self-reliance

about how you speak to yourself. And you've also got this unique team, call it family, that, you know, you can, they're there for you in a different way. So if you didn't have that unique, many people don't that. So, right. And I, and I want to take a, see if you can take a leap, uh, an imaginary leap outside of what it would be like if you didn't have those trusted sources, you know, those meaningful relationships, what would you, what would you have done there? Um, I think it's so funny that you asked that because there was actually a moment where I was like trying to call my sports psych and he didn't answer. And I was having a little mini freak out and I was like, I can do this. I can do this. I've trained for this. I can do this. But there was

also just like, it was scary. It was scary to be alone and just to like put it all on myself um I I'd like to think that I would have rose to the occasion and overcome by myself but there's something so special and I think I learned it pretty early on that community and that sense of love is so important to me. So I don't know. I don't know. I just, I think if it wasn't my dad or my husband or my coach, I probably would have tried my best to find that support in that community someplace else too. I don't know. Yeah. Community is a big deal for you. Yeah. Okay. Very cool. Okay, let's do this. Let's go back to early childhood experiences. And can you just shape quickly, like, what was the dinner table like? What was the breakfast table like? What was the family environment like? And just to get a sense of what it was like growing up, you know, in the more family? Yeah. It's hard to really remember like the early

days. My parents got divorced when I was 10 and I, I don't know. I like, I don't know if I like block out a lot of stuff, but it was hard. Like there was a lot of, it wasn't easy. Um, and you know, there was definitely sometimes when a parent maybe wasn't completely present or all in and, you know, uh, maybe a child still themselves. So they didn't really know how to, to be a parent. So I, it was definitely not the easiest childhood. Like I wasn't like, it wasn't like rainbows and butterflies and unicorns, but I'm, I still am very grateful for the way that I grew up. Like, I can't complain. Like I have a wonderful family that we all live within like a small radius. So I saw my grandparents a lot and we lived with my grandparents for a little bit of time. And most of the early mornings when I was with my dad, there wasn't a really breakfast

table banter because we were at the beach. We were in the car in the dark going to the beach. And on my mom's side, we were usually late for school and eating donuts in the car so it was just it was a little all over the place but um no it was it's made me who i am today so how what how have you used your early life experiences to be the woman that you are now like what has how have you used it? What has it taught you? Well, there's like actual literal things that I learned from, you know, those situations. Like, I mean, I wasn't allowed to surf half the time when I was with my mom,

I didn't surf because, you know, there was, there was a conflict between her and my dad. And I think I got caught in the crossfire. So, um, because I surfed with my dad, it was a hard thing for her to wrap her head around. And I don't blame her, you know, growing up now and becoming a woman and myself and just being like, wow, like I can't even imagine being a single mom and taking care of two girls and going through a divorce and all the feelings that go involved with the divorce and splitting up with someone. And so it's like, I think a lot of the time growing up, I was mad at her because I didn't understand. But now like, I feel like there's a new understanding and appreciation for what she went through and who

she was. And it just, it wasn't easy, you know? And so I think, but as a kid, like learning how to, with, with being able to only surf a certain amount of time, I had to learn how to be diligent and organized and on time and use my time wisely if I wanted to be good at it. And if it was something that I was passionate about and the fact that like, it wasn't, oh, it wasn't on a silver platter. So I had to fight for it. Um, so I think that those lessons came pretty early and especially trying to balance all that with school. So, um, I'm thankful because I still use a lot of that work ethic today, you know? Yeah. And I heard you mention twice, I had to fight for it. Meaning in, in the finals, the world championships finals, like you had to fight

for it after you got bounced, not bounced out, but you lost your first heat and now it's elimination rounds. And so you had to fight for it. You said it there. And then just now you said like, I had to fight for it. I had to go fight and I had to compete, you know, with the best resources I had to get out into the water. Like you had to work to be in the water as often as you could. It sounds like it was pretty easy with that because he was, you know, he enjoyed it as well. Okay. So I, I would love to add a little context about like, what was the financial structure like? Was money no problem? Was money, was it a scarce resource? Was it like, no, we're okay. I didn't have to worry about money. I mean, when you're young, you don't really like know too much about the money part. I think we were okay. I mean, my, but I, I'm very grateful. My dad and my mom, they ran their own business. And so my dad was able to have a flexible schedule to take me to the beach.

It wasn't, we were like, we were ever living extravagantly, but we lived a good life. We ate good food, you know, and we had enough. Yeah. Okay. I just wanted to get the general texture of it. Yeah. And then you were, were you good at a young age? Let's call it the nine, 10, 11, 12. Were you good at that time? Like as a surfer? Oh, I think I was my dad, my, uh, I mean, the reason I kind of like started like getting super serious about it was because like my dad saw this potential. He, I like to listen to him talk about it sometimes because he said, I, I had this innate, like gracefulness and technique to my surfing like

he didn't it's weird to talk about myself but he never taught me my technique it kind of I mean he definitely helped me here and there with certain things but like the hand placement and the way that you you turn and lean into stuff that um that just came naturally I think so um I mean it definitely like the competitive side and like learning how to surf different waves and read the ocean, like those things, it takes time. So it wasn't like I was super good and all these things were there from the beginning. When did you notice that adults treated you differently because you had a special talent and a big potential? Honestly, I mean, I felt like I kind of was in a little bit of a bubble. I think my dad kept it a bubble.

He didn't let that those voices ever really come in. So it never was a big deal. It's really cool because my grandma actually, unfortunately, she passed the beginning of this year and we were cleaning out her house the other day and she'd kept a bunch of clippings. And I was like rereading this article from like 11 or 12 or 13. I was like, oh my gosh, I did that. That's kind of cool. But they were talking about pressure because they were like, I guess I won breakthrough

performer of the year by surfer when I was 11. And they were in the article. It was just saying like, we didn't know if it was time to give her this award because with that comes pressure. And I just, at that time, I just did it. It never really, I never felt it, I guess. So when you saw yourself in the big trade magazine, there's two of them, right? Surfing and surfer. And so when surfer said she's the one, and when you, when you read it, what, it didn't go to your head.

It didn't like, it didn't create pressure. It sounds like it was just like, oh my gosh, that's cool. Like a super innocent reflection of it. Yeah. I think it was just cool. I think, I think my dad was, I mean, he's obviously been a huge influence in my whole life, my throughout my whole life. And he was always an encouragement of like, he never made it bigger than it was.

It never made it bigger than it needed to be. We didn't dwell on it. I think he was he's a big reason why I have the approach that I do that. It was like, like, as I actually want to do a better job of like sitting and celebrating more, but he was always like, OK, what's the next thing? Let's like we always got to keep working. It's not let's not get complacent, you know? So I was, I kind of adapted that approach in a sense that like, oh, that's cool. But like, okay, what's next? You know, we got to keep going.

We got to keep working. How do you separate father, your father and your coach, you know, dad and coach? Like, how do you, how do you do that? I mean, I'm still trying to figure it out. I think it's complicated. It's super complicated. Yeah. Do you think, okay. So do you think you're doing a good job with it or I don't, I don't want to be so like black and white with it, but not, let me keep it more open. Like how do you you do it? And what is hard about it? Like, what's the complicated part about it? I think the hardest part has just been being able to separate the dad voice from the coach voice and also leaving it at the beach and not bringing it home. And I think that that's taken a while for us to get to a point where I feel like in the last two years, um, we've kind of gotten to this point where like, okay, like we'll talk and then for 15 minutes and then we're done. We got to let it go. And also knowing, like, I think for the longest time,

like that voice I felt made me like defined me as a person, you know, but me as an athlete and me as a person are two different things. They intertwine, but they're person, you know, but me as an athlete and me as a person are two different things. They intertwine, but they're different, you know? So the idea of leaving it on the beach. So the car ride home is why most kids leave sport. I don't know if you know that. And because it's, it's so intense and it's so scary and there's so much emotion, you know, parents who care about their kids doing well want to they want to support they want to challenge they want to you know help them the best way they can but they often don't have a sophisticated framework and they're doing

and thinking and saying out of anxiety you know more than anything else. So when, when would you guys in an ideal way, when did you kind of stop the coaching and when did it become daddy, you know, like the teddy bear thing that, you know, whatever. Well, I don't think the teddy bear thing ever really happens. Um, no, but I really feel like literally it's just like been like this past year and a half, really that we've like been like okay like well we maybe we'll drive separately or we will drive to the beach together but by the time we get home we're done you know um but before sometimes it would go on and I would I would carry it with me and we would continue going for like a day or a day and a half, two days. And it's like, okay, that's a little ridiculous. But I mean, like you said, it's an imperfectly perfect journey.

And it's hard as a parent who's never done it before to figure out the formula on their own. And my dad has done a tremendous job. I can't even imagine being a coach to my kid one day, like, because there is so much emotion and love involved. But you're right, like, there has to be like, I found I've been able to handle situations better if I'm able to compartmentalize, hey, there's this is my emotion talking. And this is like, like, this is realistic. This is legit, like, logistically, like, you know, this is what we're doing here. There are two different things, I guess. Okay. How about if we flip this just a little bit and there's a coach

that I'm friends with, Trent Dilfer is a football, you know, he won a Superbowl. He's a, as a quarterback and he's a coach now of young people. And he's got this idea that he says that when he's coaching his daughters, he says, okay, do you want me to be a coach now? Put my coach hat on or my dad hat? And then says, who do you need right now? Do you need dad or do you need a coach? And so it gives in a beautiful way, gives the child, the young doer, the power. Like I need not the teddy bear from yours, but I need dad and it right. Boom gives. So, so he's asking for a feedback loop where, so he knows how to best respond. And if we flip it on its head just a little bit in that same way, how have you, can you tell a story or bring me

into an experience where you've coached your dad? So your dad is your dad and he's your coach. And it's been flipped where you're like, dad, because the reason I'm asking this is because with my son, he's 13. I want to be a great dad. I don't want to be his coach, but there are things that I do understand about becoming and, you know, the psychology part of like he's into volleyball and Taekwondo right now. So there are things that I want to add, but I want to be his dad, not his coach. But I find myself sometimes into it. So can you maybe tell a story when you flip the model? Yeah.

I mean, just quickly remarking on your coach friend and how he gives his daughters daughters the a little bit of power to kind of decide you know I was like that's really amazing because I I just feel like and maybe if I was given that power sooner I would have had more of a voice to choose or more of a feeling on who I needed but there were definitely times that I felt like he stepped up in ways that I didn't think I know I needed. And it pushed me and taught me lessons that I didn't think I, cause I probably would have wanted teddy bear daddy all the time. Like, I love you. You did great, but you know, but you don't know, like you need a little bit of tough love sometimes. So it hasn't only been until recently that I feel

like I'm like, okay, this is what I need from you. And, um, you know, I don't need that anymore, you know, because I think there was definitely a lot of times in the past that I would turn to my dad and I'd look for him to push my buttons to get in the zone. So that was kind of like his, he, you know, especially in competitive days, I would look to dad to like, like it was, it was kind of a chaotic thing to find the zone, you know, and describe, describe the zone really quickly. And then of course I want to know, what would you and your dad do together to propel you into that state more often? So how do you describe the zone first?

I think the zone is just like that state of like where you're able to compete and think clearly, make good decisions. You're in like attack modes, you're going for it and you're not like overthinking or doubting or surfing underperforming, right? You're at this place where you're doing what you're supposed to be doing. And I think a lot of times, like, like the night before or in preparation, we would like have a training session and we would make one moment way bigger than it needed to be. And we would blow it out of make it, we get, you know, frustrated or I get like insecure. And then somehow I would climb back out. And it was that climb that got me in the zone. You know, I don't know, but it was, it was, it was interesting and, and it worked. It didn't work for a very long time.

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that the zone for you is when you're performing like you're supposed to, like you're capable of. You didn't say it's like magical. It's not like in a place that is effortless. You're just saying, no, I'm doing what I'm capable of. Well, I think that's, sorry, I was describing the zone where it used to be to me when I was getting there. It's different now. The zone where I'm in now, I feel like is a lot different. Okay. So pin that because I want to come back to that. Okay. And then because you hit on something really important though, that most people do not talk about is that there is a real struggle to get to the zone. So there's a fight. There's a, an agitation that is, it's difficult. You don't just wake up and be like, Hey, I'm going to the zone in about 20

minutes. No, it's a scrappy kind of thing. And at some point it's almost like this fever pitch where you're like, fuck it. And it's, and you start and you just kind of let go. And then it's like, Oh, which that let go is like a sense of trust. Like, you know what? I'm okay here. And everybody gets there a little bit differently, but there's that deep agitation that comes prior to, and then there's a bit of a flow window, if you will. And you can pull yourself out of flow really quickly, the zone really quickly by going, I'm in the zone, or I wonder if it's going to last. I mean, you're out, you know, like you can pull yourself out quickly, but there's a struggle that comes before the window. And then if you can kind of sink into that window, then it's like, oh,

that's awesome. Because you can stay with the struggle a lot longer and you miss the window. Right. And I don't know if I'm being eloquent with how I'm describing it, but it's, um, you're talking about something that most people don't talk about. No, but I, I think you're hitting it right on the head. And that's why I think I leaned into that way of getting into the zone for so long, because you're right. There was the struggle and in the chaos, when you're able to find that peace and perform there, it's like addicting and it's brings like you're happy and that's like there was success so I we kept doing it that way for so long and I think I started to realize as I grew up like hey my dad taught me some really wonderful things that you can get to the zone from many different ways like

you said but I think as a woman now I want to get there my way. And I think we're going off on a little bit of a tangent because I'm trying to remember what you were talking. No, no, no. Like you had me like as a woman, I want to do it my way. I'm like, yeah. Okay. Well, I'll keep going. No, no, that's great because there are lots of ways to get there. And then you're saying I've got a signature way that I

want to do Carissa. And maybe I don't want to fight and get agitated in that way, but I want to embrace the struggle, the grind, this, that, and the other. And maybe, I don't know what it is, but when you say you want to do it your way, do you have clarity around that yet? Does it feel like it's clear? Okay. I feel like it's starting to click because I feel like I've been getting, been able to get into that flow state a lot, a lot more consistently. And I think there's a lot of different things that go into it. I think having a great team. So for me, that's like having my sports psych, it's having my dad as my coach. It's making sure I have my specialty coach on the road. It's having having Luke it's making sure my fitness box is checked it's checking all my boxes

and writing it out plain as day looking at them every day um that gives me confidence um because and then you know when I'm there at the beach um I have that to kind of lean on, but then I also, there's like this, like the mantras of that. I constantly am going through my head of progress, not perfection. Let's trust in the formula. I have this formula. It's worked time and time again, trusting it, have a freedom when free, when I'm free, my, I perform better. I am closer to my optimal performance when I'm free. So the worst thing I can do is stress out and have anxiety. So let it go, you know, and then it's focusing on those few simple things that I talk about with my coach. And I really think like, for me, it's like, the goal is to surf how I surf every day,

because I train hard. I train how I'd want to surf in a heat in that 30 minute timeframe. And so that's kind of like my little flow state formula right now. And did you find that fast forward now to the Olympics? Did you find that at the Olympic games? It, it wasn't't you were there there was a lot of there was a lot of talk and there was a like a lot of conversations like i think that when it came around to when i made it through the the semi-finals against amaro suzuki and it was the close semi-finals um i think just also, sorry, having a grateful, a gratefulness about everything,

about everything that comes my way and knowing like everything happens for a reason. I do believe that there is something, there's a bigger purpose out there. I do. And I think that there was like this surrender in that moment that like, Hey, like, wait, how cool is this one? I'm so grateful. I made it, I cheated death just now. I made it through the semifinals. I shouldn't have made it through with seven points, but I did. And there's like a reason I'm going into this, these finals and I'm, I'm there. Like, this is the coolest thing ever. Like all I need to do is show up and be myself and surf from my heart. And that's like all that anyone can ask for, you know? So I think I did like in that final, there was this, this beautiful piece and

like surrender and flow, so to say, I guess. Yeah. And it was all of that. There was struggles. There was fears. There was anxieties. There was frustrations. There was happiness. There was struggles. There was fears. There was anxieties. There was frustrations. There was happiness. There was laughters. There was tears. There was missing. There was hoping. There was all of it, right? Yeah. I mean, what's so amazing about the games is that it's a compressed experience with the best in the world, you know, like trying to all do the same thing at the same time and it's this compressed experience and so you i just want to make sure i'm hitting this you've got i think it's five dials we could call it or levers so these dials are your inputs and then when you get the inputs just right then the output takes care of itself you know in the ocean it's like you're surfing the way you're capable of and so it's like knowing how to get to a sense of freedom knowing practicing gratitude practicing freedom practicing community

you know and so those are your levers and if how did you come to be clear about those dials because you've made it really simple carissa it's simple, you know? And so how did you do the work to get to those levers? Because I think that I'm mixing levers and dials. It's the same thing in my mind. I like dials right now a little bit better, but most people don't have those. So how did you, how did you develop those? I think it's just taken a lot of time i have to say um so i would say 2016 to 2018 were three years it was after i won my third world title and i just went into a full-on funk like i just fell out of flow i was just didn't feel connected to myself, didn't feel connected to my purpose or my being. I didn't know why I was surfing. I was not having as much fun. I was so focused on results and I was

focused on the wrong things. And I think the personal struggles really reflected professionally. And there was a point where I had one of the worst results of my whole season. I, and I've talked about it a few times in other interviews, but it was actually when I competed at Jeffrey's Bay and I think it was 2018. I want to say it was 2018 and the waves were pumping. Like we had waited for this swell and the swell showed up the last day of the waiting period and it was pumping and I lost. And usually when the waves are pumping, it's a nice formula. It's a nice recipe for success. You know, if I come and do my surfing on good waves, it's, but, um, I was like, what is going on? I was so unhappy. And I was like, and it was starting to bleed into my life with Luke and that shouldn't happen.

You know, I was like, this is just not good because that's so good. Luke and I are good. He is a blessing. It shouldn't leak into my life. And so that's kind of when I went back to the drawing board and I was like, okay, like, how do I want to rebuild this? How do I want to rebuild a better version of myself and move forward? And that's kind of when I started like looking at what does happiness look like? What does success look like? Who am I without results, without competing? And that's when I started grounding myself or finding, grounding myself in, in, in truths like we've talked about and things that were like, can't be taken away. And then those are the things that I kind of put my dials around or centered my dials around or around those things.

Does that make sense? Chris, it's rare. I don't know if that makes sense. No, no, no. Listen, what you're saying is really rare. And you've got me on the other side going, like, I just, every part of me is like, this is it. This is how it works, you know? And I say, I wish it wasn't rare, but you've got great clarity of what you want to do in

life, which is cool. Not, not, not everybody has that. And you've got great clarity about who you want to be. And you've got great clarity about the dials that you're working to have great inputs on so that you can do the thing that you want to do at a highest level. And so when did you start investing in your psychology? I started investing in my psychology in 2018. That was when I was like, see see i would have thought that you would maybe said my dad you know like always made it like he always had some stuff about the mental

part of the game and like but i think you're gonna say 2018 formally i think yes 2018 form formally and also when i decided to take power over that and, and, and control over it and making it a priority for me, like my dad, yes, you're right. He, he was the original man behind everything. And he taught me some incredible lessons, psychology wise, like I wouldn't have had a successful amateur career if it wasn't for him, you know, sharing different, you know, he helped me learn how to visualize and goal set and all these kinds of things. But that wasn't driven by by me, so to say, does that make sense? Why? Yeah, I remember. Yeah. There was an event. It was not an event, not an athletic event. It was like a convening of a bunch of bright minds in human performance.

And your dad was there. And it was an event in Southern California. And we started chatting and he's like, he was really curious about imagery. And he was really curious about like frameworks. So he wasn't trying to drill down into like, what's a trick, what's a tactic, or what's a hack? Like he wasn't interested in any of that stuff. It was really thoughtful and he was drilling right into like, well, what are the right frameworks? And so I know that he really cared about the inner experience because probably, I mean, he was thinking for you or trying to get

better for you. And so it was obvious that he wasn't looking for any shortcuts. No. And I think, thank you so much for bringing that up, Mike, because I don't think a lot of people, a lot of people see my dad is just the dad and he is a phenomenal coach and a phenomenal father who's been able to, know like you're so right like I wouldn't have taken these steps on my own if it wasn't for the framework he shared with me through my childhood and he also shared with me the idea of love and giving back and taking care of people and the sense of community like that's that's thanks to my dad. And he's,

yeah, he's never the one to like find the shortcuts, but he's willing to put in the work, you know, he's, he's, he's, he's all about that. So no, thank you for bringing that up. Do you feel like you need to defend your dad? I don't think he's gone. I love him. I love him to pieces. And I just hope he knows how much he means to me and how much I appreciate him. I don't know if he's gotten the recognition he, he deserves from everybody else, but like from me, I hope he knows, like I just, yeah,

I'm so grateful and there's not enough words to actually like adequately express my appreciation. So I just want him to know that. Yeah. How do you tell him that? This is not, this is, this is not the forum. No, no, it's heartfelt and beautiful. You know, how do you tell him that? I think what's tricky is like, we all have different love languages and like, I'm a very verbal, like I love saying it and I try to say it. And I think his love language is time spent because he always spent time with me. And I think he deep down, he knows, he knows how much I love him, but it's just because our love languages are a little like off maybe like, I mean,

time spent is definitely one of mine too, but sometimes I don't know if he actually like hears me. Okay. This shows up in a lot of relationships. Your insight there is really good. And I think there's a rap. Let's just stay here for a minute. There's a rap that parent coaches get of being control freaks, of being too hard on their kids, of, you know, screwing up the kid. And like, and I have seen it be disastrous in fairness. I think it goes wrong more often than it goes right.

And can you talk a little bit, like, I don't know if it feels like you're betraying your dad if you were to do this. I don't want to put you in that situation, but can you talk about like an experience or a phase in life when it was like, it was wrong, it wasn't right because you guys didn't have a perfect path cleared out to know exactly how you're supposed to do it. But then wave me off if it feels like a betrayal to your dad, because I'm not asking for that, but I do want to understand this part of the, your development, because I don't want to paint a picture. Like it's just rosy and simple. And here you arrive being five-time world champion, Olympic gold medalist,

your dad, your coach, and it's perfect. And I don't want, I don't want to paint that picture because I know, I know better for you. And it would do a disservice to some of the hardships and the trials that people and you have been through. I think that there's been a lot of hardship and a lot of different challenges. I think the most that the maybe the this maybe a turning point for us um it's just been like the last two years where it was just kind of like hey I really want this to be a joyful experience and I want you to be involved and I want you to still like be my coach because I feel like you have so much, there's like, there's so much value in what you have to offer, but I'm going to do things a little bit differently because the way we're doing it for so long, it's great. And it's brought me success,

but it doesn't feel great in my gut, you know? And so there's been this, just a different, different approach recently. I don't know if there was like one specific moment, but I think like how I kind of just talked about those three years where I was kind of just like a little bit lost and rediscovering myself and figuring out what felt best for me. It was kind of like a little bit of a transition period of me being like, hey, like this is where I want, this is how I want us to work together now. And I want to kind of do this a little bit differently. Yeah, that's not an easy, that's not an easy transition. And I'll shorthand this a little bit in that I know that that comes from pain. Not because I'm saying i know your pain on this but to make those types of

changes comes from a place that it's really so hard that we're going to fundamentally change the nature with our adult relationships with our parents and you know i i understand that even as a 50 year old man like the relationships i still feel like a child sometimes with my parents and they're like 70 and I'm 50. And, you know, like that doesn't, that's not right, you know, but I've got so many years of being a child around them that were so informative that that is part of the experience. So to make those changes actually in many respects feels like kind of pulling up scar tissue. It's like a really difficult thing to do. And many people

don't actually do it. It's really tough. I feel like we still are going through certain changes. And I feel like on top of that, we've had this, like the coaching relationship on top of just a normal father-daughter relationship that's added a whole nother level of it being complicated, you know, and it is when you, it's uncomfortable. Change is uncomfortable. It's easy to just keep doing what we've always done, you know, but if you do it with love and, you know, I'm lucky enough to have a father that just wants the best for me and is willing to work through it. And he wants to support me. I mean, I thought that was one of the coolest things that he's done as a father is really embrace Luke.

When we started dating, he was like, hey, if this makes you happy and this supports you and he supports you, bring him on board. So I've always thought that was really cool. Can you talk about the time? Can we just go back for a minute to where you made the decision to, you know, change your mind? Cause you're saying it's hard. And, and it was your decision. Can you just talk about like how you went about doing that when you wanted to take control or like you wanted to be

responsible for your own inner life? It was, I think kind of like, I just had just drawn a line in the sand, like enough's enough. And I felt like I was just like, I love surfing. I've always loved surfing and it got to a point where I've like kind of burnout and I just didn't want to do it anymore. And it was bleeding into my life with Luke. And that's kind of, that's why I started to like, I was approaching it. It it's so funny. I think I read somewhere that like, sometimes when you're on the verge of getting up, that's just the point when you're about to see the light and break through and changes and is just uncomfortable. And the reason it's uncomfortable sometimes is, I don't know. I just, if it's, I was so out of flow, I was just like, this isn't right. So I think that's like, I just being conscious of myself

and like how I was feeling, I didn't feel aligned with like me. And so that's why I started making those changes. And as I made those changes and started getting validated through my experiences through how, how much happier and more peaceful I was living my life. And then also that showed through me, my results in competition, it was like, ah, okay. I think this is, this, this, this is more me. This is making more sense. And that idea, like, this is more me is seems like that's a home for you is that that's what you come back to.

Like, does this feel right to me? You know? And so that's an internal process rather than looking outside to others to see if you're okay which is kind of where we kind of were talking about a bit ago is like looking at externalizing your confidence which is dangerous yes it sounds like you're you have a sense of what home feels like and a word that i i've never said it out loud, but when I think about you, I think about authenticity. And I think about, you know, the courage it takes to be authentic, for you to be authentic is radical. And, you know, it was a great gift that I don't know if you know that you probably provided the entire camp, you know, at the games at the Olympic games is that you're just real. And so, um, yeah. And I don't know, do you think that people know that about you or do they see the, um, happy-go-lucky everything's always good. You know, Carissa, did they see that part of you

or do you, do you think people know who you really are? I think that there's definitely, there's definitely a part, like I want to be as authentic and vulnerable as I possibly can, but I think being a competitive athlete and just being in a place where I feel like a lot of the time I'm giving, and there's a lot of taking that part is that that's for me you know there's a part there's that I still keep in my bubble and and having that space to myself is still it it allows me to keep being the best version of myself does that does that make sense Mike I don't even know if I'm saying that properly like I think that I do share a good amount of myself, but to share this level with

everybody, I think would be a lot. Yeah, I get that. I definitely, I definitely get that. And you've, listen, you've also got the other part of you wired where you can put on a smile and be like, it's good. You know, you've got that one, like you, you know that, and not everybody knows that. And I'm not suggesting that we have two selves or three selves, even. I'm not suggesting we do that. But there are times when we need to have clear boundaries. And this is one of the hard parts for people who have parents or spouses, where the boundaries are not clear, like there's a blurriness into the roles. This becomes a difficult part of becoming is the boundary thing. And so, um, it sounds like that was the last two years or three years has been important for you. Yeah. I think that's been a really hard one because I am a people pleaser. Like I want everyone to be happy because when everyone's like, and I think that's maybe the trap that I fell into. Um, and maybe that's something that I fell into as a really young kid is, Hey, I'm winning.

Everybody's happy. No one's fighting. Everybody's good. You know? And so I think that after I won my third world title, um, I felt like I just kept doing what everyone wanted me to do, you know, even though it was ultimately what I wanted to do, it still felt like I was doing what everyone else wanted me to do. And that's when it just felt like it was not, it just became a chore.

And so that's why I think, like you said, when I took my power back, when I created my boundaries, when I created space for myself and in my mind, it was like, I'm doing this for me. I'm not doing it for anybody else. That's when it became like joyous and fun again, you know? There was a fun moment like at the games. I can't remember what it was. Like, I don't remember any, I'm not great with details, you know, but there was this

moment where you and I were talking and it was something that was taking place. And you're like, no, it was like, you're very clear. You're like, no, no, that I don't want to do that. I can't remember. And I'm butchering it right now. And you're like, no, it was like, you're very clear. You're like, no, no, I don't want to do that. I can't remember. And I'm butchering it right now. And I was like, oh, that was cool. Like, it was really clear, you know? And I was like, there you go.

But it was a moment of celebration. Like, listen, you can't say, you can't do it the way you did it without having a sense of power. And that's ultimately the whole work for the entire camp's job is for people to be able to express their power and then, you know, their capabilities, you know, come from there. So that's really, I don't know what I'm saying, but it was fun. Yeah. I mean, you're so dominant, but there's a cycle where it's like every other year you won a world title. I'm looking for the dates right now. What were the years that you won the titles? 11, 13, 15, 19, and 21.

Yeah, what's up with that? What's up with these every other years? I like odd numbers, I guess. I don't know. So what happens after you win? You don't have like a 13, 14, 15. You have 13 and 15. What happens after you win? Well, I mean, it's been, it's interesting. I mean, I think what, what ends up happening after I, you hit the, you reach the top of the peak. Right. And then I don't know if it's like, it's, it's, it's it's it's a long year it's a long season to function at this

intense level and then to come back and do it all over again because anything less than that is like I'm still trying to wrap my head around it because even if like it's hard to go back and give, I'm an all in 110% person. So I think what's tough sometimes is it takes so much out of you mentally and physically. And to come back and do it again, I think I hold myself to really high standards as well. So anything less than that is, those can be sometimes very challenging in between years, you know? Yeah. You know what I hear is like, I'm going, going, going, going, and I get to the place, there's the celebration and, and then I, I, I exhale a little bit and, but I want to keep it up. And it ended up, listen, there's fifth, fifth in the world at anything is remarkable.

12th in the world in anything is remarkable. 12th in the world in anything is remarkable. You just happen to have a lot of firsts. So, you know, it doesn't sound like the year after you win the title is a terrible year and you're miserable. No. Is it a fatigue thing? Is it a, it just, listen, it's just hard. I think it's just, I I mean last year was my first year

the image after a title that I actually took a real break okay so all those other years I was still working and giving and trying to be give my best you know and so I think we didn't have a tour last year it was the first time I actually just got to like and then I came back and I was fully present and I was fully rejuvenated and excited and grateful and like having that time off really gave me like a fresh perspective um I I and I have to say Mike like I still processing. Like it never stops for me because I'm still, I still work through like how I define myself and this idea of like, like I'm going through so many different emotions now after winning my fifth

world title and being more of a veteran on tour and seeing the next generation come up and looking at what the next chapter of my career is going to look like, what the next chapter of my life is going to look like. And that making that transition, not in like anytime soon, but when it does come, how will I do that gracefully? And like, there's just all these different things, different emotions like going on in my head, you know, and I feel like every time I've won a world title, the motivation's been different. Everyone has been different. I've never won it for the same reason or done it the same way.

And so I think sometimes that can be tricky too, is after you win or after I've won in the past, sometimes if I lose, then it becomes way more clear the path to winning becomes clear because you see what it takes again and you see the target but when you are the target sometimes it's harder to I isn't yeah I'm kind of like uh-uh yeah that where you're just going is like you know when you see the target it's easy but sometimes I am the target because people are, and so prey and predators and like whatever that hunting metaphor might be very cool. And there's great coaches that have talked about that. You know, Steve Kerr has talked about that and he's won so much. John Wooden said something, one of the greats, you know, all time in basketball said

the sentiment was like, I wish upon my friends that they, they could all know what it feels like to win one. And I wish upon my enemies, but he never called them enemies, what it feels like to win two back to back, you know, like, because there's this burden, there's this thing that happens underneath of it. Okay, hold on, you said something really important. I just I want to honor our time, but I feel like I could go forever here. So you talked about having different motivations. So that's a really cool idea. It's like you reinvent something as you go. And are your motivations more internal, like to unlock something?

Or is it more external? Well, I think that has also like, it's changed. It's totally changed. And I think that's why the last two have felt so rewarding and so beautiful because I felt, especially this year, I didn't feel like I was going into it to beat the next person. I was just trying to do my best, be the best version of myself. And I touched upon it earlier, but this idea of freedom and finding that freedom. And so that was literally the whole goal and motivation for this year. Where in the past, like my first

world title, maybe the motivation was like, I've never done it before. This is something I've worked for my whole life. I want to get one. The second one was, I want to prove that it's not a fluke. Like I deserve to be here. The third one, I don't really remember like what the whole motivation was behind that one, but Hey, like I lost it. I want to be, I want to be back on top, you know? And then the one in 19 and 21, like it's just in this, this just a new me, a new, different like approach and motivation, kind of doing it from a more pure and genuine place, a more authentic place, a more place of joy and love. And yeah. People that are struggling right now, hard times for many, not everybody. Like I don't want to

crowd out this narrative that there's, these are really good times for some people, you know, like I will take a thin slice. I'll share with you. I don't know if I shared this with you, but like one of the things that the pandemic has done is it's forced me to re-examine my travel life. And I traveled a lot and I'm staying at home and I love it. Like it's a whole reconnection with my family, my son, my wife, like it's amazing. So like there's, I don't want to be overdramatic about it, but there are people that are having a hard time. And what would you, I mean, you know, you know about reinvention, you know about what it takes to be the best version of yourself. And that happens to be best in the world often. So what would you hope that

people could know and apply in their own life when they are feeling like they're in this slump or this struggle phase? I think number one is two or two things, I guess, that helped me kind of find myself again when things are hard to simplify and to be grateful. As I feel like when you're simple and things are simple, things are quiet, you can really hear yourself. You can really work through those thoughts and the things that are bothering you or, you you know, when things are simple, you could just, it's just, there's peace. So I encourage simplicity. I also encourage gratefulness and trying to find like the good in everything, because with a grateful heart and mind, like, I mean, you can have like the worst situation, but it could be beautiful, you know? So, and then those kinds of things, they just start compounding and then you get into this good role and things start turning around.

So let me ask you a few like really quick hits, simple answers here, almost a forcing function for clarity. Okay. It all comes down to love. Success is love. Love is just, I don't know, it's an indescribable feeling. It's intangible, but it's how you like, it's how you treat other people. It's unconditional. It's the simple smiles you share or the exchanges of kindness randomly throughout a day. It's waving to a stranger on the side of the street. It's sharing a beautiful meal with your best friend or walking on the beach at sunset with your husband.

Like love is everywhere. Love is, you know, following your passion and chasing your dreams and sparking passion in somebody else. It's like, it's literally, I don't know. It's just, it's what connects us. It's what drives us and motivates us. It's, I swear that's what we us and motivates us. It's, I swear that's what we live for, right? It's to find those connections. It's,

it's to give love and share love and receive love. That's like, that's what we're all striving for. Like the rest of this stuff, it's going to come and go, but that's the stuff that lasts. That's what's going to like stand the test of time. I truly believe that. I've got a bunch else I'd like to ask you, but I think, I think this is a great place to pause and yeah. I mean, thank you. Thank you for the conversation, Carissa.

Thank you for the time spent and the lessons learned together. It was awesome. So I'm stoked to introduce folks that don't know you in our community. And so, again, thank you, Carissa. Thank you so much for having me. It's been fun chatting with you. And, you know, the experience we got in Tokyo is one I'll always, always remember and cherish for the rest of my life. So thank you. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no cost way to support is to hit the this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no-cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're listening.

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