Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - How To Break Free From Perfectionism | Thomas Curran

Episode Date: October 11, 2023

Have you ever felt the overwhelming pressure to be perfect in an imperfect world? To excel in every aspect of life in a society that is constantly demanding more?Welcome to the club.Thomas Curran has dedicated his career to understanding the complex and often elusive personality trait of perfectionism. A professor of psychology at the London School of Economics, Thomas’s research delves deep into the roots of perfectionism – exploring how it develops and its profound impact on mental health.His influential TED Talk on perfectionism has garnered over three million views, and his research has reached the pages of esteemed publications like the Harvard Business Review, New Scientist, and CNN – a testament to the urgency of this topic in today's society.Thomas is also the author of The Perfection Trap: Embracing the Power of Good Enough, a must-read for anyone seeking a deeper dive into the psychology of perfectionism and the pursuit of a more authentic life.In this insightful conversation, Thomas and I explore the depths of perfectionism. We unravel what perfectionism truly means, why it's on the rise in our society, the hidden costs it exacts on our well-being, and most importantly, how we can work with this pervasive force and find a healthier path to personal growth and fulfillment._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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and be successful. It doesn't have to come with insecurity and doubt. Only perfectionism grafts those two together. Okay, welcome back, or welcome to the Finding Mastery podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Michael Gervais. By trade and trading, a high-performance psychologist. And I'm really excited to welcome Thomas Curran to the podcast for this week's conversation.

Okay, have you ever felt the overwhelming pressure to be perfect in this imperfect world that we're in? Of course you have. And so there's this underlying drive for some of us to excel in every aspect of life, from work to relationships, to your craft, to how you show up in social media, to how you engage in social settings, even with your family. Like this need for perfectionism is pervasive. And Thomas has dedicated his career to understanding the complex and often elusive personality

trait of perfectionism. So he's a professor of psychology at the London School of Economics, and Thomas's research delves deep into the roots of perfectionism, exploring how it is developed and its profound impact on overall mental health. He had a very influential TED Talk on perfectionism. It garnered over 3 million views, and his research has reached the pages of esteemed publications like Harvard Business Review, New Scientist. He's been featured on CNN. And a testament to the urgency of this topic in today's society for so many of us, he's

also the author of The Perfection Trap. This is a must read. This is for anyone who's seeking a deeper dive into the psychology of perfectionism who knows the pains of it is looking for freedom from it of a more authentic life a deeper way of living it's a nice easy read evidence-based research-backed i think you're gonna love it so in our conversation thomas and I explore the depths, the costs of perfectionism. We unravel what it is and what it means and why it's on the rise in our society and the hidden cost it exacts on our well-being.

And most importantly, how we can work with this pervasive force to find a healthier path to growth and fulfillment and purpose and meaning. And so let's embrace our imperfections. It sounds so easy. So maybe I'll just highlight one of them. My nose is as crooked as a nose can be. So I'm not trying to hide that from anyone. And so I think it's just a fun way.

There's so much freedom to say, hey, look, I'm not perfect. None of us are. Get over it. I think that you're going to love this conversation. There's some real tools in it. So let's jump right into the conversation with Thomas Curran. Thomas, I'm so happy to have this conversation with you and congrats on your work to date. It's a pleasure to meet you.

Thanks, mate. It's a pleasure to be here. I'm looking forward to our conversation. Okay, good. So this word perfectionism, it's thrown around all over the place, especially in the world of high performance. And that's really what this podcast is about, helping people be their best. What is your working definition of perfectionism? Okay, so perfectionism, you're absolutely right. It's all around us. You hear it all the time. It's the quintessential answer to

that difficult interview question. What's your favorite weakness? I'm a bit of a perfectionist. This is what we think is a socially desirable weakness. You know, the one we're so much better for having. But my perspective on perfectionism perhaps is not quite the same as most people's. I am a researcher in the area. I've done a lot of work uh looking at what

perfectionism is talking to perfectionistic people i want to see time and time again is um a very defensive uh way of thinking uh rooted in deficit a sense that i'm not enough or i'm not perfect enough and that everything i do really in the world is to try to demonstrate to other people that i'm okay that I'm worth something that I matter and the way that I can guarantee that I gain the approval and validation is by being perfect so perfectionism is um a deficit a way of deficit thinking I think rooted really in shame about the imperfect person that we are and trying to emulate some idealistic ideal that we hold in our minds about the perfect person we

think that other people want to see and so if we can start there with our understanding of perfectionism from a point of deficit then you can begin to unpack really why perhaps it's not as positive as we think it is i just kind of love the honesty of the the definition and then hearing your child in the background crying which is so funny right like so sorry so no no it's like so how do you this is a eloquent moment like how do you manage of course you want to have a an optimal environment for a conversation like this and then having um your child in the back it doesn't sound like your child is distressed it sounds like it's like wanting something how do you personally manageressed. It sounds like it's like wanting something. How do you personally manage that? Do you know what?

It's like taking a sledgehammer to perfectionism. I mean, you have children, you have this kind of, it breaks down those pressures and need to do things perfectly all the time because simply you can't. Like there's no way that you can control everything. You can perfect everything. You can be on time in a certain place all the time there's always going to be moments where you have to let people down there's going to be moments where you have to send things out into the world that aren't quite as perhaps ready or perfect as you used to send them out into the world but you got no choice

you just got to do it because there's only so many hours in a day right and this this really is actually quite uh liberating in some ways that you kind of accept that okay it's good enough it's got to go it's good enough it's got to go i don't have time i have to i've got other priorities and and as i say i mean i'm a perfectionist person's why i do this work and uh wait wait wait say that again thomas you're a what a perfectionistic person oh you are, you are? Oh, yeah. So that's why I wanted to know why you wanted to study perfectionism. And so that's it. Well, it's research is research in this respect, for sure. I've definitely struggled with it.

But as I say, as you get older and life unfolds a little bit and you accept that things are out of your control um for me that's that's helped a lot kind of break down those perfectionist tendencies and then of course writing a book on perfectionism and putting that out into the world i mean these things have all helped me understand that sometimes things aren't perfect and most things we do are imperfect but that's okay you're gonna get criticized people are gonna, but that's okay. You're going to get criticized. People are going to say things that are good. You're going to say things that are bad. But at the end of the day,

that's the part and parcel of just living in an imperfect world and being an imperfect human being. When I brought up to you that, you know, I was noticing your child in the background, did that help relieve tension or did that heighten the tension oh it's a good question well i i think when you go on these things uh and you talk to people and you know it's going to go out into the world there is a certain baseline expectation that you'd like you know the content i suppose you would say to be right like that it would it would have um we'd have a good conversation. There wouldn't be any distractions and certainly no interference on the audio. So like when you bring that up,

cause I didn't know that that came through the microphone. It's like, Oh, Oh no. Is it okay? Is it going to matter? Like are the producers going to have to edit that out? Like, so there's all these kind of things in my mind that worry about whether, you know, it's going to compromise the overall quality of our conversation. So a little bit, yeah, like there's a little bit of apprehension. But then instantly when you bring it up and then there's a smile on your face and we're laughing about it, that's almost disarming in some ways. It's okay. All right. It's okay.

It doesn't matter if we're talking about it. It's okay. All right. It's okay. It doesn't matter. We're talking about it. It's part of the conversation. There are going to be times when it's not perfect and that's okay. I find such freedom being forward or vocal about the things that are, use your language, imperfect. I don't, it's almost maybe the first time I've ever even said that word, I think. But when things are messy and they are honest in the presentation, I find it so relieving.

And that's why I was wondering how that affected you in that respect. And so, yeah, it's cool to know. Yeah, you're absolutely right. It's funny because this is also a new environment for me too. I don't really do podcasts um at this point most of my uh communication of my work is through lectures and all the rest of it and actually one of the things i found i used to do a lot was worry about what other people think because you have this image of a professor in your mind and you know people think that as they're as they're watching you that they

going to be across all the detail they know every you know they know every part of their research and they're the authority and that's a hell of a lot of pressure uh so i used to put myself under so much pressure to make sure i gave flawless performance every time there was a question and i was answering it comprehensively and then i did something different one time where i admitted that on a research study i didn't wasn't across the analysis and i made a mistake and suddenly what was really interesting was the whole of the audience almost took a collective sigh of relief like these these postdocs are the people who thought that this professor was bulletproof suddenly showed a chink in the armory there is something quite liberating i think when people open up for their vulnerability and they're able to show that actually you know they don't know everything that we're all imperfect even the professors

get things wrong from time to time and I think that's good for people to see and it's good for people to know because in this society we don't often see that very often do we see flawless performances the 0.01% the unicorn achiever those are the only people we platform the only people we listen to so we get this warp sense of what the expectation is and and how high that is and you know how flawlessly we should perform and i think that makes us reluctant to show our imperfections but i think we should do more okay quick pause here to share some of the sponsors of this conversation finding master is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Solutions. In any high-performing environment that I've been part of, from elite teams to executive boardrooms, one thing holds true.

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And when I'm traveling or in between meals, on a demanding day certainly, I need something quick that will support the way that I feel and think and perform. And that's why I've been leaning on David Protein bars. And so has the team here at Finding Mastery. In fact, our GM, Stuart, he loves them so much. I just want to kind of quickly put them on the spot. Stuart, I know you're listening. I think you might be the reason that we're running out of these bars so quickly.

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energy and focus, recovery, for longevity. And I love that be understated, not just for strength, but for energy and focus, recovery for longevity. And I love that David is making that easier. So if you're trying to hit your daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value and 10% off for life. When you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash finding mastery. Let's jump right back into the conversation. I think that there's something to celebrate about the process of growth and like rather than the presentation of excellence. And so there's a value in both. Now you've done two things here. So as one psychologist, you know, to a trained professional as well, like

you said, there's an expectation of a certain standard. Okay. And then you followed on to say, sometimes I worry about what other people think. And, you know, obviously those two concepts are really important to me from, you know, the FOPO work that you and I talked about before this conversation started. So whose expectation and why worry about what other people think? And this is not, this is about you. This is not about, you know, some profundity. Like whose expectation are you concerned about? Well, the thing is we live in a social world.

We don't live in a vacuum within ourselves. Everything we do is interpreted and fed back through the lens of other people. So of course, we're going to be hypervigilant to what other people think, because that's our only way of knowing whether it's good enough, whether we matter, whether we're loved, essentially, if you really want to get the root of it um and so that's why we're hypersensitive to other people's opinions and their feedback and their validation particularly if you're perfectionistic because of course remember i talked about being rooted in deficit you in order to feel like you matter that you're appreciated approved of or loved you need to feel that other people feel those things that they see that you you're worth

something in this world they're giving you approval validation you and so you're looking at all times uh to make sure that you fit in that you're okay um and so other people's approval is really a prop i suppose you could call it for our self-esteem it's what it's it's kind of what our self-esteem is erected on and if we receive it great but if we don't then you can begin to see how that image that we're trying to project into the world gets shattered how our self-esteem starts to plummet and perfectionist people see something really curious when this happens um so instead of reflecting and recognizing our common humanity that we're imperfect and we make mistakes they overcompensate because they they

want to make up for the mistake or setback that they've made the piece of critical feedback or the rejection or worse indifference that other people have shown them they want to overcompensate to make sure that next time they receive the approval so they set even higher goals find themselves hitting setbacks and challenge more regularly because the goals are too high and you so begins this kind of really negative actually spiral of self-defeat where you know low self-esteem meets higher expectations meets over compensation and so on and so on so that's the debilitating aspect of it right like you set you feel as though you're in a deficit. So you want the approval from other people. You want to be seen as whole, as enough. And then you set these high goals to make sure that you're establishing a path towards being recognized for being good enough or good. And then you reach, I call them SOS,

setbacks, obstacles, and successes. And so on that first SO piece, it's like, ah, I don't know how to deal with it into this debilitating model that we're talking about. However, it's right at that intersection that I think that some of the most extraordinary performers like, and I'll make some people up right now because I don't personally know them, I've just studied them, Da Vinci and Michelangelo and those types of polymaths that in that setback and obstacle, they push and they work through it. And what I want to get from you is there is a facilitative part of perfectionism. It will get you better. It will get you maybe really good, maybe on the world stage. I don't know a way to square joy, happiness, peace, sense of self-contentment with that approach, but you can

get there. And so I'd love for you to talk about, you just hit the debilitating part, but what about the facilitative part that we've seen for many high performers? Okay, Mike, that's a really really good question there's no doubt that perfectionism and the anxiety that goes underneath perfectionism can spur on excessive amounts of achievement striving which among some individuals was will spur them in turn to to success right like to to to the very top but at the same time i think we have to be really careful with extrapolating from those examples that it was the perfectionism that got them to the top and that it wasn't other factors we know that in psychology there's something called

survivorship bias and survivorship bias is where when all we see are the winners before we platform are the winners before we listen to the winners and we take their experiences, then we miss something crucial. And that something crucial is what was it that stopped other people making it through that selection process? And there are many factors that are crucial to success above and beyond perfectionistic tendencies and that kind of obsessive drive. Things like circumstances, meeting the right people at the right time, coming from the right background like circumstances meeting the right people at the right time coming from the right background being in the right community being in the right country if we're

talking about athletics having having the right genes there are so so many factors that are crucial to high performance and high success beyond perfectionism and if all we see is people at the very top we might conclude erroneously perhaps that it's perfectionism was the one and only thing that gave them the impetus to get to the top when actually there were there were factors perhaps that were more important and what we don't see on the other hand is the people that are doing exactly the same things striving in exactly the same measure in incredible discomfort without the grammy or ceo or olympic medal to show for it and i think if we want to understand success we don't only have to talk to the people that made it i think it was it's also important that we talk to the people that didn't quite make it because there are reasons

for not quite making i think it just is important and understanding what it takes to be successful as it is to understand why it was the people who didn't make it itself got there so that's i think the caveat here when it comes to perfectionism and extrapolating from high performers it is a perfection that got there i've no doubt that some of the perfectionism was crucial to that success i've absolutely no doubt about that but i think it's that perfection infused with other factors that that led them to the success that they have and if people don't have those other factors or those opportune moments, they can have the perfectionism,

but find that they might not make it to the top. And that's where you're into the real problems because now you're doing this excessive striving, you push yourself well beyond comfort, but you're not getting the rewards. You're not sailing over that bar. And that's where we see the debilitating nature of perfectionism.

And I would argue there are far more people in this world that suffer perfectionism in that way than there are people who've made it to the top and at least have the accolades as compensation for that for that excessive work effort yeah i i've doubled down on exactly what you just said and i it's hard for me to discern um the perfectionism and self-criticalness. And so being self-critical is certainly part of a perfectionism approach, but it doesn't have to be. It can be in and of itself another conundrum or another difficult state of relating to yourself.

So let me use that same paradigm is that you bump up against a setback or an obstacle and then you become self-critical now. So I, to your earlier point, like, is it perfectionism? Is it self-criticalism is what is the thing that keeps people from feeling buoyant and happy and joyful in their pursuit of fill in the blank. And so one the things that i that's more of a commentary i think just me talking out loud and maybe you have a point of view about that the self-critical nature yeah i do have a point of view about that i think okay great so so you there's two there's two outcomes in life right broadly and you can succeed and find in the moment that you've done something well or you can engage in an activity

or task and fail or find that it you didn't do it quite as well as you wanted to or you know you something happened and you weren't able to do it at all so there's this kind of you know you've got your success and failure and perfection is struggle on both because if you succeed the first emotion is relief okay i didn't screw up i actually i did what i was supposed to do i did what's powerful the course for me because i have excessively high standards that i hold myself to i hit those standards thank goodness we're going to move on to the next thing perfectionism really you know with these high performers you who are perfectionistic really find it difficult to derive lasting satisfaction from that success because there's always something more. Perfection is a nasty habit of turning our dreams into nothing more than dead ends because once we've met that task or that goal or whatever we were shooting for, then we set a new floor.

The better we do, the better we expect ourselves to do. So there's no room there for satisfaction from success. So even when we've done well, we can enjoy it. But on the other hand, on the flip side, when we haven't done so well, that's when the problems really start to come in. Because not only do we have no contentment and respite on the one hand when we're successful, but now we're really critical of ourselves when we haven't done something well, because we haven't hit that benchmark.

That's the standard we hold ourselves to. That's the image that we're trying to project into the world of this hyper-functional hyper-competent person that just aces all the tests nails the presentations goes into every athletic event uh with its supreme bulletproof confidence and smashes all the competition you know these are the this is the image that we hold in our mind and as soon as that shattered as soon as we hit setback failure then that's an indictment on us okay so i feel terrible about myself i've exposed to the world to other people we'll go back to that relational piece my flaws my shortcomings my deficiencies that i'm trying to disguise and so i'll go in and say how could you be so stupid how could you have let that happen how why what were you thinking really self-critical so on the one hand inability

to derive lasting satisfaction from success on the other hand intently self-critical uh when we failed so it's a it's a really difficult psychology of perfectionism because you very rarely see any joy any contentment for those two for those two reasons it's awful i mean it's really in the end it's a badge of honor to your earlier point right like what is my one flaw in life i'm a perfectionist in other words signaling i'm a hard worker grinder you can count on me no matter what i'll tear myself down you know to to have quote-unquote high performance because i'm straining i'm sacrificing all of myself for the perfect approach or the perfect presentation. So, yeah, it's kind of like as you're describing that when I ask people like or when people say I'm a type A personality and you and I would both recognize from training that a type A personality is actually rooted in low self-esteem.

And, you know, it's like I'm type A. And it's really I mean, do you really want to wave your arms around on that? And it's the same thing. I'm a perfectionist. Oh, so according, and I'll use some of your, your banter here is that, yeah, you're just saying that you're quite miserable, a bit boring. You're looking for relief. There's no joy in your life. Your self-criticalness is actually a core construct. Good for you. And so I say that tongue in cheek because I can recognize that pull. I don't think that I'm a perfectionist. And I'd love if you asked me a handful of questions to discern that. But we all have blind spots, right? I don't think I'm a perfectionist. I do have high standards.

So there's a thin line there that I want to tease out with you. At the same time, before we go there, I want to get to a root cause. And I've got a two-step question here. Do you think that people are wanting to be perfect or present perfect? Present perfect. Okay. And yeah, it's not actually be perfect or present perfect present perfect okay and yeah it's not actually be perfect it's not to have the the perfect whatever it's to be seen as perfect is that right it's serenely swimming over the surface while underneath we know we're frantically paddling because we know it's tough we know that the goals we're setting for ourselves are excessive

and really challenging but the most important thing is to appear like we're smashing it appear like we're nailed okay that's important that's where we go okay so where does this come from and then let's get to the generational findings that you have about you know different groups of people and how they relate but where does this come from well it's okay so there's first of all let's start with the genetics because we know there's a very strong link between uh or intergenerational transmission of perfectionist tendencies just like there is for any other personality characteristic we know personality in the way you know the person we tend to end up being is heavily determined by genetics i would say about 50 just a very uh back of the envelope calculation from uh research studies perfectionism a little bit less uh 30 to 40 percent of

perfectionism is estimated to be inherited but that's still a sizable amount right so if you if you've got perfectionistic parents it's highly likely you'll probably be perfectionistic yourself and there's nothing you can really do about that that's just that's just fate um however that does leave a lot for the environment to explain and when it comes to environmental factors my focus is very much on culture so we can we can talk about early life experiences and there's a lot of evidence to suggest that traumatic early life experiences abandonment things like that do evidence to suggest that traumatic early life experiences abandonment things like that do have a massive impact on later life perfectionism that's not my area not a clinical psychologist but there is a body of evidence there that listeners can

can go and find if they're interested there's plenty of work available my focus is really more on a broader level at the aggregate what's happening why is it that seemingly people are becoming more perfectionistic because that says something about the environment today that we live in is is pushing on tendencies and perfectionistic tendencies and i've zeroed in really on a few things social media i think is is an important piece of the puzzle the kind of limitless images of lives and lifestyles that are perfect we're certainly going to internalize those as needs to be perfect ourselves. If you look at the schooling system, it's excessively pressurized right now, focusing on young people to excel all the time. The workplace, you know, the hustle and grind culture, the insecure work these days necessarily pushes us to continually work, prove ourselves ourselves try to be something in the workplace

and parenting too we know parenting practices have changed quite dramatically and there's a lot more expectation that parents are placing on young people um and that is is and we've done some research to show that that's indeed linked to rising perfectionism so there's all sorts of factors might uh that are out playing right now now in modern society um but i think this relentless and um intense pressure to uh hold perfect performances project into the world a perfect image appearance um life and lifestyle uh that's certainly i think one of the key reasons why we're seeing rising perfections. I'm going to pause the conversation here for just a few minutes to talk about our

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Clean, clear, no funky color distortion. Just good design, great science. And if you're ready to feel the difference for yourself, Felix Gray is offering all Finding Mastery listeners 20% off. Just head to FelixGray.com and use the code FindingMastery20 at checkout. Again, that's Felix Gray. You spell it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com and use the code FindingMastery20 at FelixGray.com for 20% off. And now back to the conversation. 50% is a big number, you know, genetic predisposition or coding. And you're saying it's like more 30, 40, somewhere in that range. Happiness has a similar component to it as well,

right? 10% of your circumstances, you know, upwards around 50% genetic coding and then the remaining 40% about environmental conditions. I think I have that right. So how are you breaking those up? You're saying 50 for personality, genetic predispositions, and then how do you square up the remaining 50? Well, the way in which we turn out generally, and this is a lot of classic twin studies have shown that the way in which we turn out generally is about 50 inherited all right so that's to say about half of the variability in between person differences in personality characteristics can be explained by their genetics um now of the rest there are many

debates about this so you know don't take what i'm saying as gospel. Absolutely not. I don't take anything I'm saying as gospel. But of the rest, it's my strong belief that the vast majority is learned out there in wider culture. The world in which young people grew up in. And I'm thinking here things as a behavior of media, right? Like that surrounds them, the peer groups um the social and civic institutions that they're socialized into um the you know the parenting practices which themselves are socialized by higher forces and pressures that are pushing on parents to behave in certain ways right like all of these things are in mind to my mind very cultural and that's why i described in the book

perfectionism is it's largely a cultural phenomenon and so now let's drill into the parenting bit because a large percentage of our community are parents and so when they heard that i'm sure they're like what you know like okay how can i be better yeah hopefully you're not saying how can i be perfect as a parent but how can i be better do you have any gems that um any insights around parenting and perfectionism well first of all just say it's really difficult uh you can start off with the best of intentions uh and find very quickly that you're reduced to a helpless spectator and that's fine that's very normal uh i you know do i have any specific hard and fast tips or hacks no but i have a couple of philosophical ways of thinking that i think will help the first is you've got to be consistent with your approval and validation we talk we've talked a lot about

approval and validation from others as a crucial crux of the perfectionistic mindset you have to at all times try to break through that in young people to show them that they don't have to pin their whole self-esteem on what other people think and the way that we do that is provide consistency of approval and love across you know all time and all events and all experiences and what do i mean by that let me give you an example well if your kid comes in and they've got a bad grade they're going to be disappointed right they're going to feel like they've failed um and there's going to you know there's going to be a frank conversation that needs to be had the most important thing is to provide that consistency of love and approval this grade is not an indictment on you doesn't say anything about how much you matter to me your parent or your teacher or anyone

else for that matter it's just one grade out of many possible grades that you could have possibly got and many possible grades that you will get going into the future and that's the most important thing and when they come home and say they got an a grade and they're really happy about it exactly the same what you what's really important not to do is fall into the trap of qualified approval as i say when they've done well praise them give them raucous applause and all the rest of it but when they haven't quite done so well defer the praise subtly on the expectation that they continue to do more because what that does is it says to young people i'm only really worth something when i've come home with an a and when i haven't i can tell it's not quite been met with the kind of approval or satisfaction so that consistency

of approval is so important and and young people are very impressionable creatures so if you have perfectionistic tendencies and you're you know you you you worry about mistakes and you're very very critical on yourself and you failed young people will pick that up even if you try the best to hide it they will pick that up so it's so so important to have open and frank conversations about young people about your own shortcomings and your own failures if you've gone to work and you've you screwed up a pitch come home and tell your kids that tell them you know just had a bad day today it didn't go well you know we didn't get the we didn't get the the the project and this is just part of life right failure is normal it's very humanizing it reminds us that we're imperfect and that's uh and that's a really important uh message for young people to hear.

And thirdly, and I want this to be, it's so difficult to be a parent these days because pressures on young people are so high. So, so high. And I have so much empathy for parents because I don't think there is any choice really these days, but to push subtly. You know, I can sit here and say, don't push your kids you know and it's not going to be the right message because at some level that there is a need in this in this economy in particular for your kids to to go to college get a good degree so that they have access to the best paying jobs because if they don't then they're going to find themselves falling behind that's just the way it is right now the middle classes are hollowing out there is no meritocracy for policemen police officers teachers nurses firefighters they're you know their wages have gone over these issues be solidly middle class roles and now they're finding that the living standards have declined year and year

that's certainly happening in the uk i can't speak for the u.s but nevertheless parents see this young people see this they know it's so important to make sure that they get into those elite professions which guarantee them uh the the best salaries and all the rest of it which is vitally important right now in a near of in a near of inflation and right beside so this is basically sorry to go on but it's so so important that parents know that it's okay that there is a lot of pressure on young people there's a lot of pressure on young people. There's a lot of pressure on them. And don't put yourself through the wringer. You're doing a great job in difficult circumstances. I hear it. You know, I hear it.

I want the best for my son. By no means am I, and I'm sure that 99% of the parenting world will recognize this. I don't want my kid to try to be perfect. That's not achievable. It's not da-da-da. And so I want to make sure I'm not falling into a trap that you've seen over and over again with your research is that I hear that. And then at the same time, it's like I am

challenging my son to understand what it means to apply himself, to strain, to make mistakes are all part of that process. But what I'm watching is what relative to my childhood, which I know is a dangerous thing, is a bit more sedation, less agitation to want to create something that is net new, but rather to participate in something that has already been built. I'm mixing a bunch of parts of my relationship with my son, of course, and leaving out a bunch. Most importantly, at the center is wanting to unknow him, not caring as much about what he produces in the world as much as he comes from a place of joy and happiness.

All that being said is I look at people in his generation, he's 15, I don't see, in some respects, I think I could build a case for the need for perfectionism. And I know that you're, it's like nails on a chalkboard for you probably right now, but like, there's something that I'm watching in a generation where they'd rather have avocado toast and lattes, I don't know, kind of have a lifestyle of cruise control. And I don't know how we would have David by Michelangelo or Moses by Michelangelo or the Night Watch by Rembrandt. I don't know how we would get those types of beautiful, radical, which have all been noted as being imperfect masterpieces, by the way. It's one

of the beauties of a true masterpiece is that there are imperfections in it so I I don't know if what I'm saying is is hanging together because there's two parts it's like I'm not seeing in a generation strain and strain and wanting to create something net new and embracing the messiness of building something and at the same time I'm seeing like the value of imperfect masterpieces. So maybe you can grab one of those and take it. Well, I would say what you're seeing there is actually perfectionism.

Perfectionism at its root is anti-resilience. It's an inability to deal healthily with setback and challenge, to overgeneralize setback and challenge as problems with us and so that leads to a high level of reluctance sometimes to open ourselves up to the world to take risks to encounter situations where we may be rejected where we may encounter failure because the intensity of the shame the guilt and the embarrassment that we know we'll feel in those moments because we've exposed some deficiency or shortcoming to other people and they've seen it particularly publicly and they've seen it and they're judging me remember this is the kind of profession it's so intense that we withhold ourselves procrastination for instance strong correlation with perfectionism why because

it's it's an anxiety management technique the perfectionist is is is engaging in to try as much as they possibly can to avoid the feelings of discomfort that come from thinking that this may very well end in difficulty or setback or failure and that's the difference between what you're seeing in the past perhaps where you know that the con the the consequences of failure were less severe um the the the emphasis was on the vocation you know i talk about in my book a lot about my grandfather he was a master craftsman he never had these hang-ups he just wanted to leave things in the world for other people to use everyday things banisters staircases you know chairs and people still use them to stay long after he's died by the way and i think that says something really interesting about his vocation his purpose was really like

completely different to the perfectionist which was to try to receive other people's approval of love and fire emojis whereas he just you know he didn't care about those things no interest in those things whatsoever he just wanted to do a good job leave something in the world for other people to use and when he was done just left him there didn't loiter for applause or whatever but just left them there went home and gone on with his life and and there is a real in i think the intensity of the emotions that are attached to failure right now are creating exactly what you're seeing in young people is this aversion to putting them to taking risks and putting themselves out there and that's why i describe it in the book perfection

is really sort of anti-resilience so what you've identified there's maybe kids need a little bit more perfectionism i would say actually they need less because you know the less perfection they have and the uh the more let's say contingentness and meticulous diligence it's like you know this very healthy way to strike come from active optimistic place of wanting to learn wanting to improve willing to take risks and fail and grow and develop you know that is way way healthier they need more of that i think and lesser perfection i of course i agree you know and i've never heard anti-perfectionism until um your your book on it so like nice job pulling something forward which is more uh another dimension of resilience and a an enabler of going for it so

I really appreciate that how about the relationship between perfection and vulnerability do you have a point of view there yes and I'll draw from a Brené Brown in in my discussion of this and I'll defer to her because she's done most of the work in this area and it's very influential i'd encourage anyone that hasn't read brené's books to find them and read them daring greatly in particular but they're all fantastic and they do shine a light on the relationship between a sense of not feeling good enough to kind of root a deficit thinking and an inability or reluctance to show ourselves or show up as she describes it and that's that's a real struggle with a perfectionistic person because as i mentioned the anticipated shame

of not being recognized not being approved of and again i'll go back to that feeling but not being loved like that's the root of this is so intense that showing vulnerability being courageous and just putting ourselves out there feeling the fear and putting ourselves out there becomes really tough to the point of paralysis that we just don't move forward or move in any direction because we're just so consumed by a fear of failure. Perfectionistic people fear failure so much that they will avoid failure. As I say, they'll sabotage the chance of success to avoid failure because avoiding failure is the imperative. And that's why they find it so hard to show vulnerability and put themselves out there because there's a high chance of failure.

There's a high chance of being judged. There's a high chance of failure there's a high chance of being judged there's a high chance perhaps of being criticized or worse ignored you know social media is a classic classic amphitheater of this you know we used to sign on to social media with trepidation about what we've been tagged in you know the embarrassing photos or whatever this is how i used to use it but now it's the opposite people young people sign on to social media and worry about not being recognized, you know, not being approved, not having mentions or comments or shares. It revealed to them this kind of this feeling that they don't matter, that nobody appreciates

them. So, you know, vulnerability is a huge piece of this. And the reluctance to be vulnerable, be courageous comes, I think, from that really rooted sense of deficit. And as I say, there are scholars out there who have written much more vividly than I have just spoken about that topic just then. You know, one of the foundation questions that I ask people to wrestle with is, as a first principle, one of the most important decisions that you can make, are you organizing your life to avoid failure or approach success? And most people say approach success when I give them a moment to go for it, which with a high likelihood of failure publicly, you know what they really do. You know what their behavior lines up with, you know, avoiding failure. So this thing is deep in us. And I love that phrase, perfection paralysis. There's a few folks that I don't know if you've come across their work. DeMar DeRozan, one of the greats in basketball. Kevin Love, one of the greats in basketball. Lewis Hamilton, Formula One. Victoria Brown, a former athlete at USC. Influencers and athletes that are trying to make a difference on this narrative. It's really refreshing to see folks that have a public stage and have struggled with

the avoiding of failure, the struggle with feeling like they don't have enough value and saying, okay, we got to be done with this. So there are heroes out in the world that are waving this flag saying, you know, enough is enough. I just don't know how it's going to get done. How about this? Super small, very powerful though. Three to five phrases that you just can't wait to say to your son, you know, that to help avoid this paralysis of perfection. The first thing, I mean, I'll answer that in a moment because it's a really nice nice question but i think the first thing we need to do is win the argument because at the moment i i don't feel like uh the argument has been won in a sense i'm i'm constantly talking to people

about this idea that you just need perfectionism to survive in this world it's hyper competitive you know to get to the very top you've got to be a six sigma individual that's one in 1.4 million people if not perfect how are you going to get there and to some extent they're right but the bigger question that we should all be asking ourselves is actually can we get to the same place differently like are there alternative pathways to the top and does it always have to be through self-sacrifice taking ourselves out of our comfort zone in terms of our you know mental and physical health overworking all the time pushing ourselves to the nth degree or can actually we find just as much performance doing things slightly differently you know resting rejuvenating feeling more vitalized in our work

which we know are very important if you look at the data we find you know perfection isn't strongly related to uh performance in fact it's not related to uh performance at all you don't need to be perfectionistic to get to the top you need all those outside factors i talked about earlier and you also need hard work you need diligence diligence. You need conscientiousness, a willingness to show up, do the best that you can possibly do. That will just as well get you to the top as this kind of obsessive perfectionistic thinking will. And I think that's the argument that needs to be won. Because actually, you know, there are healthier ways to strive and they won't preclude us from, from being an elite individual if our efforts and talents take us there. And now one final word from our sponsors.

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Their products are simple. And they reflect the kind of intentional living that I want to build into every part of my day. And they make my morning routine really easy. They've got some great new products I think you'll be interested in. A shampoo, conditioner, and a hair serum. With Caldera Lab, it's not about adding more. It's about choosing better. And when your day demands clarity and energy and presence, the way you prepare for it matters. If you're looking for high quality personal care products that elevate your routine without complicating it, I'd love for you to check them out. Head to calderalab.com slash finding mastery and use the code Mastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash Finding Mastery. And with that, let's jump right back

into this conversation. It's one of the primary missions of this podcast is to pull back the curtain on how the best in the world operate. And like, there's some first principles that are clear that perfect is not the thing, you know, like to your point, the journey is not perfect. The, the final presentation is not perfect. And anxiety is, um, unfortunately so powerful that it, it, it is one of the thieves of joy, as the saying goes. So mastery is not perfection. And that's really what this is about, mastery of self and mastery of craft. And there are some standards, though, that we need to pay attention to. And I think that if we could just spend a moment here, because the data is clear that perfectionism positively correlated with high performance.

But can you talk about an exacting high standard? Can you talk about an attention to detail and wanting to master the details, but not operating from a deficit, but coming from a place of love and joy that deep insight comes from understanding nuances and being able to artistically express whatever the craft is or the craft of self. Can you talk about some of those concepts that I just mentioned? Oh, goodness me. It's so important. You got to treat what you do as a vocation. It's got to be bigger than yourself. If you pin everything that you do on yourself, then you're always going to worry about what people think. I'll go back to my grandfather because I always wrestled in my head when I was writing the book.

Why are we so different? We have this kind of meticulousness, I think, that we share. But the way in which it's expressed is so different. And the inner dialogues that we take are so different. He had excessively high standards. He wouldn't have been as successful as he was if he didn't have exceptionally high standard yet his summer a lot of his wares and his wood uh his carpentry are in the pubs of northamptonshire where i come from to this day you know i'll go in there with my father and then we have a beautiful moment a reflection that this

is you know my grandfather is with us in this room right now because of the things that he made you know those are high standards you know they've lasted the test of time and they still look stunning to this day but but he wasn't a perfectionist he wasn't a perfectionist you know if if he if you know if he left a screw chip just jutting imperceptibly or he missed a bit of varnish you know he just let those mistakes wash through as sure a sign of his fallibility as his wrinkles or his sciatica. You know they weren't devastating in other words, they weren't personal, they were just part and parcel of being a fallible human being.

Being a fallible human being doesn't preclude high standards. What perfectionism is on the other hand is shame really, embodied in a very deeply problematic relationship with ourselves and other people, whereby we're shooting for those high standards. We're trying to put those perfect things into the world for other people's love, validation and approval, because deep down we can't bear to show any chink or vulnerability. And that is that's the crucial distinction that people have to carry with them when they're thinking about the differentiation between perfectionism on the one hand, a deep sense of deficit, and high standards on the other. You know, you can have high standards and strive and be happy and healthy and live a very contented life and be successful.

It doesn't have to come with insecurity and doubt. Only perfectionism grafts those two together. Brilliant. Now, let's go back to some statements. come with insecurity and doubt. Only perfectionism grafts those two together. Brilliant. Now let's go back to like some statements. You just can't wait to hydrate with your son over time. What would be some of those things that you're really looking forward to saying or encouraging? The first one, and I think this is for everyone,

but certainly I would be very keen to impress on my son that you're enough, that just existing, living, breathing, having a conversation with another human being means that you're enough that you know just existing living breathing having a conversation with another human being means that you matter that you you are enough you don't need to justify yourself to anyone that sheer existence is the most joyous wonderful incomprehensible miracle it can only mean that we're enough and i think that's so important to impress secondly i think one of the things that's really guided me is um and i would like it to guide my son to is a sense of conviction in what he believes in uh finding a sense of purpose and meaning and doing it um with as i mentioned a sense of

conviction but also compassion and making sure that as we go through the world trying to master whatever it is that takes our interest or our passion whatever it is he chooses to do that he does it um at all times with a deep sense of compassion both for himself when things haven't gone quite so well but also for other people too i think you know it's all i know it's very airy fairy but i think kindness is so important it's so so so so important it really diffuses moments of difficulty it diffuses aggression and anger that we might feel or resentment that we might feel when we when we think we've been wronged and it allows us to think clearly um about constructive ways forward ways forward that mean that we can

care for ourselves we can tell ourselves it's okay that you know we are fallible we are exhaustible that's okay we're going to slip up and also we can do the same to other people too when they've encountered difficulty or challenge we're going to treat them in exactly the same way with that with that kindness and uh and compassion um so i think those are the kind, I would say, I mean, there's a few things there that I think if I hold, I hold quite strongly as guiding values

and I'd like them to be the same for my son too. I love that. So when my son was born, we went through an exercise, my wife and I, about what are the values that we want to cultivate for our son? And she wrote a page and I wrote a page

and then we whittled it down and we agreed on two, which was in and of itself like, and we started with two just because we could get our arms around it as we are sleep deprived and try to figure out how to change diapers for the first time. And so it was kindness and strength in that order.

When I hear what you're just saying, I go, oh yeah, yeah, I recognize that as well. And antidote to perfectionism, kindness of self self kindness to others and a sense of strength to be able to deal with the challenges and the difficult circumstances that come with straining and striving and pursuing passions and purpose are you familiar with the concept wabi-sabi i am not mike please tell me more yeah so it's this it's a concept that sees beauty in the incomplete and value in simplicity.

And so like, I just feel like there's a something akin to the anti-perfectionism that you're talking about in this concept of wabi-sabi. Are you familiar with kinso-ji, the Japanese art of embracing imperfection? I am. I am familiar with this art. Yeah. Yeah. And so it's a beautiful like practice

and yeah and also fixing broken things and that's with with maybe gold as a way to make it as in and of itself something that's in that has inherent beauty in its imperfection i was toying on playing with that theme in the book it didn't end up doing it but um it's it's something that's definitely relevant to perfectionism and i think there's a lesson there in what what actually is valuable what it actually is of beauty in the world and it isn't this idealized perfect person that you're trying to impression manage and project into the world and naturally your imperfect self with all of its foibles all of its flaws all of its imperfections is way incomprehensibly more beautiful than the perfect person that you're trying to be and i think that's i think there is a lesson there i didn't end up going with it but i think there

is a lesson that's what my wife says about my crooked nose and she's absolutely right she's absolutely right yeah yeah so okay back to your son three to five words or ideas for like the you know that will be an anecdote to perfectionism kindness compassion what would be a third well i'll give you three c's uh which are linked to to what i said a moment ago courage to show up and be vulnerable conviction in your beliefs and find purpose and meaning in anything that you do and do it with conviction and compassion you know treat yourself and other people with kindness those are the those are the three c those are three c's and then how will you support courage to show up and be vulnerable with your son you've got to at all times encourage encourage encourage encourage to push themselves out into the go for it you can do it yes i see you yes i see you going for it i love that yeah

and you're gonna suck it's all right like you know daddy sucks a guitar but he plays it anyway because it brings joy happiness meaning and bonding right it's it's it's not about the outcome this is really important it's about the challenge it's about trying it's about putting one step in front of the other and doing what you love and if and you're gonna suck it first you're gonna it's going to be easy and it's going to be uncomfortable. And sometimes you're going to fall into the trap of affection and try and disguise and hide and remove yourself.

But at all times, it's important to remind my son and anyone really that the most important thing is to try. That's the most important thing. What a great conversation. Thank you for the research and introducing it to our audience

and having such tender appreciation for the research and introducing it to our audience and having such, you know, tender appreciation for the approach of trying to figure this thing out. A genuine thank you for your research in this conversation. Well, I really appreciate it. I've really enjoyed the conversation and I hope your listeners find it interesting too. A hundred percent. And we've already, we've already driven people to your work. Is there a place that you would like them to go, you know, for your book and or social media? Are there specific places? I do have a website and I'm on LinkedIn and Twitter. I think the easiest place for listeners is to just type in Thomas Curran, Curran, spot C double R A N, the perfection trap into Google. My book will trap into google my book will come up my website will come up and all the uh leads to contact me will be available there and i would encourage

listeners if you do pick up a copy and read it please uh let me know give me an email or a tweet or a linkedin message i'd love to hear from listeners so don't be afraid and you know like the perfection trap when i read that title i was like like, ah, that's really good. And then I read the subtitle, Embracing the Power of Good Enough. And I said, where did that come from? So how did you come to that, the Embracing the Power of Good Enough? Well, that was a discussion with my editor. I think what we wanted to convey in the subtitle subtitle was the you know the book is layered and it has a lot of messages but the main one really is is about landing where we can find most

contentment and where we're able to feel like we're achieving something moving forward but at the same time we're not pushing ourselves beyond comfort and good enough was something that kept landing on in my own life something that kept seeing in the literature around you know being able to let things go move forward let things go the literature around, you know, being able to let things go, move forward, let things go before this is the, you know, the crux of progress. And so we landed on the concept of good enough. I appreciate you. Thanks, Mike. Well, I appreciate you too. Thank you. Yeah. All right, bud. All the best. Take care.

Thanks, Mike. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no-cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're listening. Also, if you haven't already, please consider dropping us a review on Apple or Spotify. We are incredibly grateful for the support and feedback.

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