Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - How to Build (and Repair) Love: The Gottmans on What Every Couple Should Know

Episode Date: December 31, 2025

The most powerful way to enter a new year is not with resolutions, but with a deeper understanding of how to connect with the people who matter most.As we close out the year, the Finding Mastery team is taking time to rest, re-calibrate and reflect — practicing the same principles we talk about on this podcast. So today, we’re sharing a conversation from the Finding Mastery Vault with two legends in the science of relationships: Drs. John and Julie Gottman.Together, they’ve spent more than 50 years studying what makes love last — from small moments of connection to the hidden habits that quietly erode trust. In this conversation, we explore the daily rituals that deepen intimacy, how to repair after conflict, and why the best relationships aren’t perfect — they’re practiced.In this episode, you’ll learn:How to turn conflict into closeness through repairThe four behaviors that quietly destroy relationships (and how to replace them)Why “love is a verb” — and what that means in actionThe difference between bids for connection and real listeningHow to communicate needs without criticism or defensivenessFrom the entire Finding Mastery team, we wish you and your loved ones a very happy, healthy New Year. We’ll see you in 2026! Enjoy this episode with The Gottmans.________________________________________________________________Links & ResourcesSubscribe to our Youtube Channel for more conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and wellbeing: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine: findingmastery.com/morningmindset Follow on YouTube, Instagram, LinkedIn, and XSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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Welcome back or welcome to the Finding Mastery podcast where we dive into the minds of the world's greatest thinkers and doers. I am your host, Dr. Michael Jervais, by trade and training a high-performance psychologist. The idea behind these conversations is simple. It's to sit with the extraordinaries and to learn, to really learn how they work from the inside out. This is not about hacks or shortcuts. It's about what they're searching for.

how they organize their inner life, and the skills that they have used to shape their craft and themselves. As we close out the year, the Finding Mastery team is taking time to rest and recalibrate and reflect. Basically, we're using the same principles that we talk about on the podcast. We're practicing those. So today, we're sharing a conversation from the Finding Mastery Vault with two legends in the science of relationships, Dr.'s John and Julie Gottman. In this episode, we explore the habits that strengthen love, the patterns that quietly eroded, and the small daily commitments that create trust, closeness, and lasting partnerships. It's a meaningful way to reflect on the year behind us and to set intention for the one ahead. So from the entire Finding Mastery

Team, we wish you and your loved ones a very happy, healthy new year. So with that, let's jump into this week's conversation with the Gottman's. Oh, I can't believe I'm sitting down with the Gottman's. And I just, I just want to say thank you for the contribution you've made to the field and to my professional and personal life as well. And you've been in this for over 50 years and studying the science of love. You know, just as a general idea, what is still fascinating you about this science? and particularly about the science of love.

You know, I think what is fascinating me, Mike, is how to treat couples who have complicated lives. Couples who may be seriously depressed or one partner may be struggling with an addiction. I have a lot of couples who are coming in, particularly after the pandemic. and so distress, so unhappy, they may have lost their direction, they're not sure what's going to give their life meaning, and whether or not they really belong with this current partner, and many times they don't have the tools to forge a bridge between them, particularly since they were crushed together during the pandemic and are just looking for space at this point. So it's challenging and particularly challenging as a result of what's outside their

relationship as well as what's inside. Yeah, I would have to agree with Julie that we did a study with 40,000 couples about to start therapy, an international study with same-sex then. And cross-sex couples, all kinds of couples. And Julie's right, you know, over 60% of the time, couples had these additional problems, these comorbidities that went along with unhappiness in the relationship. They were struggling with addiction, violence, depression, all kinds of other things that really impinged on the relationship. And treating couples with all of those problems by the time they start therapy. is a real challenge.

Yeah, it's one of the more complicated, in my mind, it's one of the more complicated parts of the science, you know, the psychological science is about relationships. And there's, you know, I'd love your take on why you think it's so complicated, or why I sense that it's so complicated, and maybe you value the complexity as well. And do you have a bright line about why this part of the science is so complicated for so many of us.

You know, I think Dr. Mike, it's a really, really good question. And there's a very simple answer to it, which is nobody took relationships 101 in high school. Nobody learned the skills. Nobody typically saw modeled in their homes the ideal relationship where people were really solving problems in a kind way, in a calm, way. People may be getting flooded when they were growing up, meaning they would get so upset. They would be screaming and yelling at one another. So most of us didn't have role models on which to base our own relationship skills and intimacy later in life. So how are you supposed to learn these things. And if you haven't learned them, then on, you know, on the presence of them,

you're overwhelmed. It feels like, oh my God, it's so different. It's so much to learn, et cetera. But actually, it isn't all that complicated. One just has to learn the skills that we teach as well as ways to really deeply connect with their partner to sustain. To sustain a very good relationship. In your new book, the love prescription, why did you write that now? Because what you just talked about, I'm nodding my head emphatically saying,

yeah, the tools, the skills to work, which I wasn't taught them. It was your work that introduced them to me. And I also think, I'll add one more layer of complexity that seems apparent to me, and you might wave me off of this, please do, is that I came into the relationship as a young person with all of the baggage, you know, from my life. My partner, my wife comes into the relationship as a young person with all the baggage.

We've been married three plus years. And her baggage and unique trip wires or triggers. And we are in an unsophisticated way trying to be in the best relationship. We know how. But we don't have the ideal model. We have our models that we came from our parents. And so it's all this baggage, all these tripwires with lack of tools and trying to do our very best. And I feel like that's most of my friends and most of the high performers I work with that the tools are wanting. And there's all this non-conscious triggers, tripwires that are not brought to the surface readily that we're constantly tripping over those things. So would you agree that that's part of the complication or do you say, no, it's just, it's really about skills? Well, you know, let me try to answer that question.

And the reason that we wrote this book is that a lot of times people feel so overwhelmed by the challenge of making a relationship work that they don't ever get started. And so, you know, we thought, you know, why don't we write a book where it's going to be. going to be really easy to get started. And the principles are not really very complicated. And could we actually change a relationship in just a week? Could we give people a prescription? It'll help them get started. And once they do these things for a week, they'll see that, in fact, it's not that complicated to have an intimate relationship that lasts. That was kind of There is a second part to your question that I want to address that is very important. That's why I interrupted you normally.

I don't do that. Baggage. Let's talk about baggage. Nobody comes from an ideal childhood. Nobody does. Everybody has, as you put it, tripwires in their adulthood that relates. back to their childhood. And a lot of people, especially, unfortunately, men in our society are socially trained to not feel vulnerable, to not feel sad, to not breathe, to not feel

afraid. Yet, many come from backgrounds, whereas kids, they may have been traumatized. They may have been hit, They may have grown up in poverty. They may have grown up in a stony, cold, tense environment, including the treatment of themselves. And there are ways in which, even though we might do work to heal from those old wounds, typically they never fully heal. They're like scar tissue. and scar tissue tends to be very brittle. It's not elastic the way healthy tissue is. So when you poke it, what happens?

It tears. And that's easily what can happen when, let's say a couple is discussing whether or not to watch a particular TV show. And one of the partners is saying, I really don't want to watch this. The other partner is saying, I really do. And what the person who says I do want to watch it doesn't know is that the other person is being reminded of a terrible incident that happened, let's say in her past, where somebody attacked her in a parking lot, and she's getting triggered and going into what we call a post trauma state, where she's just zoning out, but desperately trying to push away what's triggering.

her, which is the TV show. But the other partner may not know that. So part of our work together is really to unearth what is deeply within each individual. So first of all, that people can know each other much better, what we call love mapping. They can really map out the partner's inner world and share their own inner world. And secondly, people understand that the other partner, each of you, may have scars that get tripped over every now and then that get triggered, and those really need to be revealed, talked about, and understood, which deepens the compassion between the partners, and then make solving problems a lot easier. I'm going to pause the conversation here for just a few minutes.

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distraction-free paper tablet at remarkable.com. Let's jump right back into the conversation. everything you're saying, I'm like, yeah, it's so good. And then it's so clear to you, both. And I know you're working from research and evidence. And I feel like I can hear, I can hear my younger self going, yeah, nice, okay, right. Like that's how I'm going to do this. Like I'm going to sit and listen and then I hear my, I hear, like we've been married 35 years, right? And I can hear my current part like, yeah, that's so.

rich. I want to just, I need more of that. I want to find the time and make sure that I create that space to do it like every day and, you know, whatever. And so, and I also hear like this other part, like that takes a trained professional in respects to be able to do that work. And that's, in my estimate, that's what the book was to make it really simple. Like here's a prescription. And I am, I don't want to be a cynic. I'm not a cynic in life. But then I, one of my tripwires in science. And it was like, are there seven rules? I don't know. Is there really a prescription?

I don't know. You know, so, and I was wondering if like, I love the simplicity that you made and I really deeply respect the research foundation that you're coming from. So do you want to start us off with like what the prescription is or do you want to move into the mapping? Do you want to, do you want to maybe start with like what the ideal loving relationship is? Like where do you want to start to get into the, into the applied stuff? Before we get into the into the things that absolutely tear down a relationship, you know,

because I know we'll go there eventually. Okay. Yeah. One of the things that was so interesting about the apartment lab that Julie and I designed where we studied 130 couples right after their wedding, just a couple of months after the wedding, where these small moments that the camera operators noticed where they're just hanging out in this apartment lab for 24 hours.

And one person is just trying to get their partner's attention or interest or have a conversation. And a lot of times, the other person just kind of blows it off. You know, really doesn't see that this is an important moment and turns away from that attempt to connect. And in that small moment, when people actually do connect, they really actually see this is a bid for attention or emotional connection. It has so much meaning.

It really kind of builds this. emotional bank account. So in these very small moments that seem almost trivial, you know, unimportant, there lies in a real mystery. And when people connect in those small moments, it turns out that the relationship really kind of gets lubricated in a way. So all the years mesh easily. And it really gives them such amazing gifts as a sense of humor about themselves when they're disagreeing. It gives them a sense of affection, even when they disagreeing. So those small moments really built.

And so we wanted to tell people, you know, get started noticing the way your partner asks for what he or she needs. And if you attend to that, it's going to be an amazing thing. And so I want to make it over concrete. one of my clients um they just had a massive exit you know unicorn type business exit and he is full of fire and zest and a love for life and they're kind of they're like 35ish and they have a newborn and um and they had this moment okay so they've got all the resources but it's a brand new all of this kind of new lifestyle that they have is brand new so stress is high they're trying to figure

out this new life with all of these resources. It sounds like Prince and Princess problems, but it's like this is the condition. And it's a new way of governing and making decisions. Okay. And then something happens. It's like a spilt milk moment. It was actually the door wasn't locked and they had to have a conversation about having the door locked. And it was a safety tripwire for one of them. And they just had, they had it out in the driveway. They're like pissed off. And they jump in the car because they had an appointment they were going two together and it was a silent car ride. You know exactly what I'm talking about. You've had this. Okay. So it's a silent car ride. They get to the place. And right before they're going to

the meeting, they're going to go work out together. Neither of them at this point wanted to work out together. So they went kind of to the gym and they're working out separately. And I guess halfway through the workout, she runs over and while he's working out lifting heavy weights, kind of pissed off and agitated and she runs in front of the mirror between him and the mirror and makes it this goofy face you know and right and so as he's lifting weights and he had a he had a moment either he goes like to himself like what the eff are you doing get out of my way or he gives gives into the goofy face that the you know the bid if you will do i have it right that that is like that took courage for her to do because she could have dismissed right and there's vulnerability in that and

it's like it's it's silly it doesn't always have to be silly right but this one was silly right the fun part that's what we call making a repair that's the repair yeah that's a repair so that was so that's not a bit that's not a bid and uh not exactly not okay so oh great help me understand the bid for the repair if i have it well let's find out how how did it work for them oh yeah so he's lit in mid mid set lifting weights and, you know, he's straining. I would not recommend this because, you know, it's like you don't want to have an intimate conversation when you're at the mile 19 of a marathon. Like that's not the time to do it, right?

And elevated heart rate, the whole thing of intensity and stress. And so he had the moment and he knew and we talked about it. He could go either way. And he looked at her. He's like, this is the woman that is like, I love her. She's as goofy. She's trying. God bless it.

And he just laughed. He just like spontaneously laughed, put the weight down. You know, and they just looked. each other and then she's she kind of like left it was no hugging there was not yeah right right but they made eye contact right like right and i go i want more of those of my life like i want to be i want to be both of them in that right that's a successful repair so here's the difference between a repair and a bid though of course there's lots of overlap a repair is an attempt to get back on track when a conversation or a conflict or something has gone wrong. Then the person does something

to make it better, to take the tension out of the, out of, you know, the space between the partners to repair what's gone wrong, you see. And she used humor. She used humor in silliness. to kind of crack through the ice between them. That's exactly right. So they had enough emotional money in the bank from bids being turned toward that he could laugh. Let me also just say, here's what a bid would look like.

Okay, John and I can actually roleplay it. And there are three responses you can make to a bid. One is turning away, which means just ignoring it, Two, means responding hostily to it. And three, is turning toward your partners. So we'll just roleplay those three. So, gosh, honey, look at that gorgeous bird out there.

Isn't that amazing? Honey? Look at the bird. Listen, I'm trying to read. And you keep interrupting me with these trivial. things. It's really irritating, annoying. Hey, look at that gorgeous bird out there. Wow. It's a blue jay, right? Yeah. Incredible. That's it. That's all it takes to turn towards a bid. So what I'm doing there, you saw John, when I first pointed out the bird, I was just looking to

share a moment with him. And that's, you're saying that's the bid. That was the bid. I've had this wrong for years. Okay. I'm so glad we have to go. Because I've been thinking the bid was it took place as the, the first kind of entry into repair.

I thought what she did was the bid and then they're going to have a conversation later that was going to have, that was going to deepen the repair. And that's, I don't have it right. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So bids, bids for connection are much bigger than that. So they include bids for shared interest in something. That's what I was doing just then. A bid may be making a request. Honey, would you please clean the counters in the kitchen? That's a bid. A bid also can be much deeper. Like, honey, I'm having a terrible time dealing with. this relationship, I really need you to talk with me about it. Would you please? Can we make some time to do that? Is that okay? Yeah. It would be fine. See? There you go. So those are all bids for

connection. You have a second career waiting for you. Like you guys should take this on the road, which I know you have quite a bit. All right. So bids for attention, bids for connection. really what we're looking for is a response, right? Is that what we're... Turning toward. We're looking for a particular kind of response that we call turning toward, which is typically affirming of the other person. So joining the other person, if they're asking to share a moment where they're interested

in something, it can be a response of yes. Yes, sure, I'll do that. A positive response might even look like this. Honey, I don't have time to do this right now, but I promise you I'll get it done before the end of the day. You always say that. And, you know, like, honestly, I'm starting to think that you don't really want to do it. You're just saying that because you know that it's the nice thing to say.

Okay. Well, I can understand you feeling that. way because I've let you down many times. But right now, I really truthfully am saying I promise to do this task you've asked me to do. So see what happens. You know, I'm really glad that you bring this up because honestly, I feel like every time I'm into something and I'm doing something that requires a lot of focus, it's like you're kind of needy. And And it's like, I know we're doing the bid thing, but I think you're overbidding. Okay.

So I'm going to step out of roll for a minute. Oh, come on. It was almost so good. It was almost there, Julie. That was a criticism. Yeah. That's right. It was a criticism.

That's where I was going. I'll go back into roll. So, you know, Mike, I'm feeling really defensive right now. Can you say what you want to say in another way? Okay. Well, I feel like when I am really trying to focus on something that I want to be there for you, but it feels like there's another game that's being played, and I'm really agitated by it. Can you help me understand what you mean by another game?

It's like when I'm deeply into something, those are the times that I feel like you want my attention most. and I don't know. I just, I don't quite understand what's going on. Like, you know I'm focusing. You know I need to get this thing done. And, you know, I'm writing, I'm writing right now or whatever. And it's, I don't know, I just feel exhausted by it. Wow.

So let me make sure I'm understanding you correctly. You're saying that it seems to you that when you are focusing the most on something, something that you are doing, it seems to you that I approach you particularly at those times to get your attention? That's Julie, that's the way it feels to me. Oh, God, what a drag. That must feel pretty crummy because you're divided between your time. Yeah, that's what I've been trying to tell you.

That's what I've been trying. Like all this time, that's exactly what I've been saying. It's like, I want to spend time with you, but like not now. Okay, so tell me what would be, what would be the ideal for you if I have something that I am needing to share with you and at the same time, you're really focused on another task. What would work better for you? I think you've got to be better at reading the cues. And I know you want me to say what I need, but like I just need you to like know when I'm, how about I? do this when i put my headphones on it's like i'm in i'm trying to get in my zone you know that's

perfect that'll be a great signal to me that this is a time just for you to be focused on what you're choosing to focus on and i should give you that space is that right that would be a great signal to tell me that cool that that was it's all pull out now julie that that was like that feels like the normal kind of circular thing that could happen like I went to irritation frustration blaming pointing finger you know criticism and defensiveness is what we're stuck in and you pulled this out of it and can you tell can you can you describe what you're doing to be able to do that yes because yeah this is the takeaway right what you're about to say is is going to be gold and so if you explain this for folks maybe silver not quite as well okay actually I think this is

more you guys know this this is where people get stuck defensiveness critique defensive and like it's the spiral snake eating its tail and then it gets like then frustration is part of it in a way that it's like what are we doing yeah keep having this conversation right okay okay so here are the here are the steps that i took during that conversation to change the course of where it was going first of all when you spoke your first criticism of me, you're too needy, you know, basically. I took the feeling I had, which was, ouch, and I turned it into, I'm feeling defensive.

So rather than going defensive and getting angry about what you said, instead I described what I was feeling I'm feeling defensive that's yes there's a goal part of it and then asked if you could rephrase what you said that wouldn't make me defensive basically that was the first then let's see then I think you started getting frustrated and a little bit angry and what I did then, I realized, wow, this is really a big deal for you. I could tell that from how you were feeling. And so I moved to another skill, which is to summarize what I heard you saying and not only summarize it, but give it some validation. There's gold number two. Validation

means, from your point of view, I could see how you feel that way. That makes sense to me. I step into your shoes. I empathize, try to, with what you may be feeling, and I think to myself, yeah, if I were him, I might feel the same way. So I say that to give you some validation. and validation is one of the biggest tools that calms down the conversation. And you might note, you calmed down after that. The frustration vanished. I checked it with you. Did I get it right?

Make sure. I heard it correctly. And then I asked you for what you needed. And that was. my being open to you having needs, not just me having needs, but you having needs, and sorting out the nugget of what lay inside our difficulty connecting with one another when you were focusing on something else. Okay, quick pause here to share some of the sponsors of this conversation.

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when I was being critical. And you said, but what you did is you didn't respond from the emotion, but you made sure that you were acknowledging the emotion and then sharing the emotion rather than like lashing out or retreating from. How long does it take to get not even great, but just good at this? Because emotions are so raw and big and overwhelming to so many of us like how long does it take to get good and how do we practice my question first of all let me let me just note something that I want to correct you said I started acting childish so let me just say for your listeners that what you were expressing wasn't childlike at all it was it wasn't childlike you were you know we had uncovered

something that was really frustrating. And yes, you are entitled to get your needs met. So am I. And sometimes we've got to work out how that's going to look. So needs are not childlike. Wanting your needs to be fulfilled is not childlike. It's normal. It's human. We all have needs. every single one of us. So how long does it take to learn to do what I was doing? I don't know. You know, I think it depends on how much of practice. Well, we do it with guests and we do it with friends all the time. Good point. So we have those skills, you know, when a friend comes over and, you know, spills the wine all over your tablecloth, you know, say, get out. You ruin my tablecloth. you say, hey, you know, that happens, can I get you another glass of wine? You know, we're kind

and generous towards strangers and friends. And so I think we have the skills. It's a matter of really in the moment, just listening. You know, there's a, let me give you just another very, very, very, very simple formula that encapsulates all of this, that people can just brand on their forehead. Describe yourself. Don't describe your partner. Simple as that. Describe yourself. I, I, I, I. Describe your feelings. Describe your needs. When you slip into describing your partner, especially when you're upset or angry, then you move into criticism. You're so lazy. You're so selfish. You're so needy. You're you. You're you. That's not going to work. So you start, if you want to bring up a problem with your partner, you describe yourself. I'm feeling

what? I'm feeling frustrated. I'm feeling angry. About what? What's the situation, not the character trait of your partner. What's the situation? I'm upset that the bills haven't been paid yet. That's the situation. Then you ask for what you need, the positive need, meaning how can your partner shine for you? It's not what you don't want them to do. You ask for what you do want them to do. That's awesome. Can I add something here? The original idea of being a great listener was really flawed. I think that's part of the problem. So the original idea of being a great listener was to say,

I feel something when you do something. So it turns it back on you. So I say, I feel angry when you are too needy. So it turns out to be an attack. It's not really listening. And listening has to not have that attack in it. It has to say, you know, I really feel angry when I'm concentrating and, you know, I get interrupted by your needs, right?

I feel sad when you keep doing this. Yeah, that's not, that is not the recipe here or the prescription. Exactly. Yeah. Right, right. So taking your situation, here would have been a way to say. it right from the get-go, I feel frustrated when I'm focusing on a task and something pulls me away from it.

And I just want to stay focused on it. Cool. Yeah. There's no attack. There's no attack, you see. So there's no. Yep. Right.

What we found in our research were there were four big predictors. of relationship demise over the years because we followed couples for as long as 20 years to see what would happen to their relationships and videotape them. We took physiological measures like heart rate. We took how much they sweated in their palms and so on. And then we brought them back every few years to see what happened to their relationship. So we learned there were four big predictors. One, criticism. So, criticism means blaming your partner, some character trait of your partner for the problem that exists between you.

And there's where the words like lazy, selfish, mean, blah, blah, blah. You always. You always and you never. Those are also criticisms. Interestingly enough, because they imply a personality trait. You always forget to do the dishes, you know, whatever. So that's criticism. The second one we saw, defensiveness.

And defensiveness is a way of warding off an attack what feels like an attack. By either counter-attacking, oh yeah, well, you haven't cleaned out the garage, counter-attacking, or lining. Oh, yeah? Well, I did the dishes last night. Right? That's defendants. The third is contempt. And Mike, that one is like sulfuric acid for a relationship. It's the very worst of the big predictors. What it is is looking down on your partner from a place of superiority and treatise. them with a little disgust and scorn. And it's, and it can be a look. It can be a look of disdain, right? Yeah, rolling your eye. You don't have to drop the F bomb.

You don't have to use the hate word. Like you can, you can look at somebody cut right through every word of disdain and content. Yeah. Is that, can, when that happens, if that happens a lot, is that, is it like, hmm, probably should get a divorce if you guys can't forget this. out like is it that i think but they need therapy correct you know um people uh who were doing a lot of that are going to have a lot of emotional injuries in the relationship a lot of pain

lots and lots of pain in fact we found that the number of contempt expressions a partner hears in 15 minutes not only predicts how bad the relationship will go, it also correlates with how many infectious illnesses the listener will have in the coming year, meaning... Oh, I've missed that bit of your research. That's phenomenal. Continuous destroys the immune system. How about it?

Isn't that amazing? And so, and just to be clear, it's not like you randomly would measure 15 minutes. give them something to wrestle with. You give them something emotionally charging to think through. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right. And talk about train song.

And then inside of 15 minutes and like what kind of numbers are we talking about? Like is this four contempts experiences or is this like 14? Sometimes it's even the way a conversation about how the day went begins. I remember this one guy who said, why don't you talk about your? day it won't take you very long oh jeez oh my god how do you guys keep it together honestly i mean you're i know like you've got to come from some real compassion you know because when somebody says like that something like to me i'm like guys like do you actually think this is going to work like they're not thinking about what's going to work you know they're feeling bitter

they're feeling angry, perhaps they've gone through a lot of attack within the relationship that's taken them to that place. Well, they come from a family where there's a lot of contempt and disdain. And now, one final word from our sponsors. Finding Master is brought to you by Fatty 15. One of the core questions I often return to is, what does it mean to age well? live longer, but with clarity, energy, and the zest to keep doing what I love. That's why I've been invested in consistently taking fatty 15 for a few years now.

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My wife and I, we come from loud families. My wife is Latin, Cuban, identifies most with her Cuban descent. And I've got some Irish Italian. I identify mostly with Italian. And so we'll get loud. And like it's fiery. And we almost like, yeah, it gets loud. And then we can like we can look at each other.

Okay, okay, okay, okay. You know what? And there's a, there's a repair that takes place. And I think that's one of the reasons we've done. And we've done a lot of relationship work ourselves, like with a radical therapist that just held us at the highest standard and was loving and warm and knew her stuff. Like, I'm sure she knew your work intimately. And so what do you say to folks that get loud and have kind of that emotional flare?

It's a cultural thing and it's also a style of communication. What do you say to those folks, me in particular? Okay. Well, so we address three of the four big predictors. The fourth one is called stonewalling. But let's talk about what stonewalling is and what's behind it, which relates to your question. So stonewalling means during the middle of a conversation, one partner gets so upset that they shut down, they withdraw, and they act like a stone wall. They don't give any response. He had any facial expression? No eye connection. No words. Nothing. There's just nothing there. And it's not for a few seconds. It might be for a few minutes. That's stonewalling, which is very upsetting to the other partner. But what we discovered is that inside people who stonewalled, they were getting what we call flooded. And flooded means you're feeling so attacked. that your heart rate is over 100 beats a minute, right? And you'd rather be, as John likes to say, you'd rather be on Pluto than in the room talking to your partner. And that is a state, actually, in which blood is moving out of the front of your brain,

back behind it to the part of the brain that controls movement, the motor cortex. And as a result, you can't hear well, you can't problem solve. You're going to feel attacked, even if your partner lovingly says, honey, I really love you. You've got tunnel vision and tunnel hearing. Everything feels like an attack. And what you have to do then, is ask your partner to take a break. Can we just take a break and tell your partner, this is very important, when you will come back to talk again. So your partner isn't just left hanging,

wondering if you will ever discuss this topic again. So you say when you'll come back, it shouldn't be any shorter than about 20 minutes to a half an hour, no longer than 24 hours. And during the break, you do not think about the fight. Do not. Otherwise, you'll stay physiologically aroused. What you have to do instead is something that's self-soothing. And that can be reading a book, reading a magazine, listening to music, going on YouTube. It might be going even for a run because there are different physical dynamics. involved, just something that really takes your mind off the fight and allows your body to metabolize

the stress hormones you've released in your body so that you can calm down and then return at the time you said you would to continue in a calm state. Can I say something here? I want to talk to that Irish-Italian Cuban-Cuban. cultural thing. You know, before we did this research in the laboratory, therapists thought there was an ideal way to talk about conflict and it involved staying calm, being rational, listening well, you know, low-key. And it turned out to be completely wrong. In fact, you know, there are people who are very emotionally expressive and, you know, and that's fine. It works well as long as you're

not attacking your partner's character. You're not doing the four horsemen. Then there are some people who are really, you know, they're so laid back that, you know, they just don't get upset by anything. They're really, they avoid conflict whenever they can. And that's fine too. That works also. And, you know, and there are people in between. So these cultural differences turn out to be unimportant. It's really the way you connect with one another. And, you know, and You know, and feeling like your partner is actually on your side. You're working on a problem together. Like you're pushing the ball upheld together.

And it doesn't matter if you do it calmly or you do it with a lot of emotion. As long as you're not enemies attacking one of them. I love that you've added that because I'm just, I think my style. And not that this is materially important in the conversation, but I'm really mellow, really mellow in intimate or fiery conversations. Like I just kind of, I have that ability. And then all of a sudden, I feel like I get thrown off a cliff. Like I lose my, and all of a sudden my voice gets up, but it takes a long time. And what I've done my early life, and I hope people listening can appreciate this earlier in my life, I didn't do well with criticism.

and like I just didn't have the skill. And this is why I'm saying to you guys both thank you because like your work materially changed my life and probably what was definitely in the DNA of what saved my wife's in my relationship. And now like it's the same style. It's like really slow. And then all of a sudden I get cranked up

and she's not surprised by it. It's okay. And then but what I don't do is I don't talk about her. I talk about my experience. And now she's not on her heels. we're pushing the ball uphill together. And I just want to tell you guys, I blew it this morning. I'm listening to, I know your science.

What are you doing? We jumped out of my son and I, my wife, myself and my son, we dropped him off at school. We get back to the house. Our dog's in the car as well. And I was kind of rushing to get to my first meeting. And so I jump out of the car. And usually it's like, hey, babe, we get, we grab the dog. You know, or it's like, hey, I got the dog, whatever.

Like, we're just communicating on it. I jumped out of the car, like a selfish, you know, whatever, kind of ran into the house because I wanted to get my stuff and get back out and get my car and take off to the office. And she said something under her breath. And I go, oh, God, I'm in trouble. And I looked and I was like, I'm halfway into the house. I'm like, oh, my God, what am I doing? And so I said, I'm sorry, you know, like that.

And she's still processing it like that was really rude. And she was right. And then so I'm coming downstairs from grab. my stuff. And I look and she's grabbing a dog bag to pick up the dog's mess. And I'm like, I really screwed this up. Not only she like, literally, she's having to pick up after the dog. And so, so I sent her an emoji once I got to the office. I didn't do the immediate repair bidding. And like I sent an emoji of a panda bear. And that's our little code word. Like we're trying to be more like panda bears. You know, we're trying to like they just play and they roll and

they're fun and they're not threatened by stuff. Like, they're just more playful and big. And so, you know, I got a heart emoji back. And so repair worked. You got. So the repair worked, but I really, you know, I literally, like. Oh, but you know what? You're a human being, Mike.

Oh, yeah. And you're not selfish. You were maybe a little forgetful and you ran. And we all do stuff like that all the time. John and I do stuff like that. as well as worse stuff, you know, we're always making mistakes. Everybody does. And that's why in our research, the biggest, biggest difference between couples who succeeded, couples who did not, was the successful ones made repairs. They made repairs after their mistakes. And the sooner they did

that, the better. So look at you. You did everything right, right? As soon as you got to the office, you made a repair. And she accepted the repair and boom, it's gone. So that's terrific. You cleared the channel between you. Nice job. So, okay, you guys are great. I love, I just, I love that you bring into the conversation.

Like, you know, you guys make all the mistakes as well. And minimizing the mistakes, yet not eliminating them necessarily. But like, I don't, when I say I'm sorry, Like, I didn't know really how to do it earlier. And I really, it's a promise that I'm making to not do that shit again. Whatever that thing is, like, I'm going to do my absolute best to not kind of step back into this, you know, pattern. And I'm not perfect there. Of course, nobody is.

But, like, I really mean it when I say it. So that's been picking us a long way. Yeah, I think that's a very important thing. I mean, all the failures that I've seen in being a therapist. It's always, it always comes back to that, that, you know, the couples that fail, one person is really not willing to take any responsibility for their side in the miscommunications. And that invariably makes therapy fail, I think. Before we end. I mean, again, amazing.

And I know you guys wrote the book, eight dates, which, interestingly enough, our producer of this podcast, Reddit. And, you know, it was the trigger for him to realize that he wasn't in the right relationship. And it's so powerful. In the mastery lab, like, you guys have made a dent here now. And so can you just talk through, like, just quick high overview of eight dates? Because I highly recommend it.

I saw it work really in a power. away for him. And so can you just quickly hit that? And then maybe like what should Lisa and I do tonight? Like the repair's kind of done like a heart, you know, but like so there's a two-parter eight dates and then super actionable what Lisa and I can do as a proxy for what anyone that is wanting to be better in their relationships do tonight. Yeah. You know, one of the reasons we wrote in Eight Dates book was because a study was done in the Sloan Center at UCLA of dual career couples in Los Angeles. And, you know, these were couples that had children in two careers. And what happened was that they just completely ignored the relationship. The relationships had

devolved into just this long to-do list that they were getting through together. And they had neglected romance and fun and play and adventure and really kind of sitting down with one another and saying, hey, baby, how's life treating you? How are you doing? And so we wanted to create these eight dates so we feel tested these dates where people were prepared for the date and think about questions they wanted to ask their partner on the date to really get those conversations to have some meaning. So let me say a little more about eight dates and then the other question. So what eight dates is, is a roadmap for essential conversations couples might want to have especially either newer couples or couples who've been together a really long time,

but they haven't stayed close. gotten more distant from one another. And we had seen a zillion couples like that, which is why we wrote this book. So with each date, you are given a topic to think about, and then on the date, some questions to address with your partner to talk about. And their questions, each chapter is about a particular topic with questions to discuss pertaining to that topic. Some of the topics include things like trust, you know, what tells you that somebody is trustworthy. How do you like conflict to be handled? So conflict is another one. Not to have a conflict, but if there's a conflict, how do you want it to be handled? We talk about parenting. We talk about

sex. There's also play and adventure, ways you really like to play. Let's see. There's one on spirituality. And money. Right. Money is another biggie. So each topic is really a way for couples to explore their values, their needs, their experiences, and share those with one another pertaining to each of those topics. That's eight dates. Now, your second question, what can you and Lisa do tonight? This is one thing that you can do. And it's part of our love prescription book. And that is go home. And focus entirely on what your partner is doing right, not what they're doing wrong. What are they doing right?

Every single thing, whether it's doing the dishes, whether it's making coffee, whether it's helping your son with his homework, you know, whatever it is. And say thank you. Very cool. partner doing everything right you know it'd be fun and maybe you guys have done this I just haven't seen it it'd be fun if like we could pull our community together and like and like do a worldwide kind of like catch what's good with your partner day or week and capture that in some way you know socially like there's something here that would be it would really move a needle a great little experiment that'd be beautiful yeah you guys are awesome

Yeah, it is. Maybe we talk about offline some kind of way, but like you guys are awesome. Thank you for being so sound in your science and your research and making it applicable to all of us. And I just want to say, I can't wait to see what you guys do next. And I want to encourage folks that are, you know, part of the founding mastery community here to go get these books. And I don't know if your lectures are available to be purchased. I know that as a professional I was able to be part of your trainings. Are there, where do you want to drive people to? Sure.

People can go to www.w.gotsman.com. That's g-o-t-t-t-m-a-n.com. And there's lots and lots and lots of stuff that they can find, including actually a software platform people can go to to learn all the interventions, to hear little snippets of of information and lectures about how to fight well, how to have great intimacy, et cetera. It's all there on that software platform. And last but not least, we've just finished a book that I think will be called Fight Right. And that'll be coming out in, I don't know, as long as it takes to print.

Valentine's Day. Valentine's Day. Valentine's Day. Valentine's awesome. Good. Well, hopefully we can have you back on to learn those insights that you're sharing there as well. Thank you, Mike. Thank you. This was a great interview. It was very successful. Thank you. That's so good. You guys are great. Good job. Good job. So how about this? How's an ending? Before we go, in one sentence, maybe even a word. What is love? Well, first of all, we like to say love is a verb.

It's not a noun, it's a verb. And it means placing your partner's feelings, needs, and dreams as either as important as your own or at times more important than your own and treating your partner accordingly. That is brilliant. Thank you. All right. So on to love, on to the next. And I'm wishing you guys absolutely the very best. Again, thank you for making such a big dent.

And John, like maybe I think I might have stepped on your words with the delay here. Did you want to add or did you? No, her definition was perfect. Yeah, it was, wasn't it? Okay. Thank you guys for making such a massive dent in the world. And I really appreciate this. Thank you, Mike.

Thank you, Mike. It was a great interview. Next time on Finding Mastery, we're kicking off 2026, with Cal Newport, bestselling author of deep work and slow productivity for a conversation that will completely change how you think about focus, busyness and what real productivity looks like. Cal and Mike break down why doing less can lead to better work, how constant distraction is quietly draining us, and what it really takes to protect your attention in a noisy world. If you're ready to start the new year with more clarity, more focus and a smarter way to work, this is the perfect place to begin.

Join us Wednesday, January 7th at 9 a.m. Pacific and a happy new year from all of us here at Finding Mastery. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no-cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're listening. Also, if you haven't already, please consider dropping us a review on Apple or Spotify. We are incredibly grateful for the support and feedback. If you're looking for even more insights, we have a newsletter we send out every Wednesday.

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