Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - How to Drive High Performance: Insights from a Top Formula One Coach | Patrick Harding

Episode Date: May 1, 2024

Formula One racing may seem like a 'sit-down' sport to some, but the reality is that race car drivers are anything but sedentary. World-class F1 auto racing pushes the limits of human endurance, focus, reaction time, and risk – requiring competitors to face incredibly intense physical and mental challenges.In the open cockpit of a Formula One car, drivers (or “pilots” as they are often known) must maintain razor-sharp concentration at speeds approaching 220 miles per hour and withstand G-forces rivaling those experienced by astronauts during launch. And they do it all on top of a grueling global 30-week-per-year international travel schedule.Driver performance is as crucial as vehicle engineering. And to reach sustained superior performance, Formula One athletes often work with coaches who guide them to excel both on and off the course.In this episode, we sit down with a dear friend of mine, Patrick Harding, a distinguished performance coach for Formula One Racer Alex Albon.Patrick’s extensive background in physiotherapy, strength and conditioning, and performance coaching makes him an invaluable asset to champions. With more than 12 years’ experience in elite sports, including professional rugby, Australian Rules Football, Team Great Britain’s most successful Olympic Canoeing squad, plus a personal interest in boxing, Patrick's expertise is significant.In this conversation, we discuss how to create a high-performance environment for athletes, the strategy behind mental and physical preparation, and why the journey of self-discovery is an essential component of mastery. Patrick also shares insights from his personal journey, the lessons he's learned along the way, and how he helps athletes understand themselves and find joy in the process. His story is a testament to the power of dedication and the transformative potential of performance coaching._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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doing it with love, doing it with passion, in spite of the sacrifices. So knowing that that journey is difficult and the likelihood of success may be 1%, but you're still dedicating yourself to that. That's the journey I'm on. Welcome back or welcome to the Finding Mastery podcast. I am your host, Dr. Michael Gervais. By trade and training, a high-performance psychologist.

Okay. Formula One racing may seem like a sit-down sport to some, but the reality is that race car drivers are anything but sedentary. World-class F1 auto racing pushes the limits of human endurance and focus and reaction time and risk. It is flat out full-on and it's requiring competitors to face incredibly intense physical and mental challenges. Now in the open cockpit of a Formula One car, drivers or pilots, as they're often known as, must maintain, must maintain razor sharp concentration at speeds approaching 220 miles an hour, jamming on the

brakes, downshifting all the way to like 40, 50 miles an hour. That type of g-force and tension in the system is incredible. It rivals those that are experienced by astronauts during launch. And they do it all on top of a grueling global 30-week-per-year international travel schedule. High-performing athletes, flat out. Driver performance is as crucial as vehicle engineering. Now, the tension between those two, it's real now. You got the engineers, you got the drivers trying to figure out how to allow this car to do its thing on a different track over the course of the year. Okay. Now to reach sustained superior performance, that's the game inside the game here. Formula One athletes often work with coaches who guide them to excel both on and off the course. So in this episode, we sit down with a dear friend of mine, Patrick Harden, distinguished performance coach for Formula One racer, Alex Albon.

Patrick's extensive background in physiotherapy, strength and conditioning, and performance coaching makes him an invaluable asset to champions. With more than 12 years experience in elite sports, including professional rugby, Australian rules football, team Great Britain's most successful Olympic canoeing squad, plus a personal interest in boxing, Patrick's expertise is significant. Now, in this conversation, we discuss how to create a high-performance environment for athletes, the strategy behind mental and physical preparation, and why the journey of self-discovery is an essential component of mastery.

Patrick also shares insights from his personal journey, the lessons that he's learned along the way. Really good. And I love how he shares his insights and his stories and how he helps athletes understand themselves. And if I could just pause there, the commitment to help others understand themselves is a blend between art and science, and he's got it. And how to help them find joy in the process of becoming. His story is a testament to the power of dedication and the transformative potential of performance coaching. So with that, let's dive right into this week's conversation, Patrick Harding. Patrick, I've been looking forward to this conversation for a long time.

We met a handful of years ago and there was this instant spark about the spark you have about helping people be their very best and the vehicle that you have to, to bring that to life. And it was like this instant, like, okay, this is awesome to get to know you. And here we are. And so why don't we just start with kind of the basics? Help our community understand what you do in Formula One. And then we'll also talk about boxing as well. But let's just start with Formula One. Yeah, absolutely.

Actually, that meeting was in a bar. It was in a bar. I do want to caveat that. Where were we? Miami. It was Miami. Yeah, race weekend in Miami. Yeah, F1.

I mean, we'll probably get into that a little bit. Yeah, yeah. Not about the bar, but yeah. We'll keep that off. We'll keep that. That's off pod. Yeah. Yeah, so firstly, yeah, really, really happy to be here.

And I reflected on that a few times over the last couple of days, knowing that I was coming on. And it was a noisy bar. We hadn't met each other before. Yeah. But we got into some pretty deep stuff. Right. Just over a couple of beers.

Yeah. With music blaring in the background. And like you said, it was really refreshing for me in that environment to speak to somebody who was coming in objectively, not necessarily in that sport for a particularly long time. But to hear some of your observations about the environment was incredible for me. Oh, that's cool. Like you said, yeah, when you asked me to come on, was i was more than happy to oh cool um what do i do um performance coach um physiotherapist by background master's degree in strength and conditioning mental performance coaching as well and i put that skill set around professional athletes um

and predominantly that's alex albon who races at Williams Racing in Formula One right now. It's one of those sports we've already mentioned. It's a sit-down sport, so why do they need a coach? And like rowing and maybe golf cart driving. Yeah. Like these are all sit-down sports. Sit-down sports, yeah. No physical capacity needed. But contrary to that, it's incredibly demanding from a physical performance point of view. Not just the physical intensity, but the intensity of the schedule.

It's 24 races spread across the world, multiple time zones, triple headers, double headers. Don't know if you followed the schedule this year, but we went from Las Vegas double header to Abu Dhabi on an 11 hour shift based on the schedule. So they get out of the car on a Saturday evening and then they're expected to race again the following Saturday, Sunday. So incredibly intense from just a tolerance perspective, from a travel point of view.

And fundamentally, what I do is help Alex physically prepare for that. So his conditioning, um, we're here in, in LA because we're doing a preseason training camp. So we're in off season right now. Yeah. Yeah.

So in essence, um, you're, you're helping prepare the athlete to be their very best. You're using primarily the vehicle of strength and conditioning as the main, you've also got training in mental performance, right? And then you've also got the physiology or physiotherapy background.

And so do you put hands on as well? If there's a need to. Yeah, okay. If there's a need to. That's part of your training. Absolutely, yeah. So that's where my career started. Went to a couple of Olympic games

as a lead physiotherapist for Team GP's canoeing squad. So that's predominantly where my skill set started. Another sitting sport. That's interesting. You're really good at this. Yeah. I mean, I could help you out. You sit a lot.

Yeah, I do. I am a professional sitter. I am world-class at sitting. Look at the posture here. It's pretty damn good. Isn't it? I could probably do a little more. I need to stay up a little bit.

Yeah, right. Yeah. I mean, most people in our community are professional sitters, even world-class athletes sit more than we've ever sat, you know? So, but then we're all, we're you and I are obviously making fun of the demands of an F1 driver.

Yeah. Just open up the aperture a little bit about formula one. Yeah. Like what actually is it? What happens? And like, like rip it right down into, you know, X number miles per hour, you know, and straight away to corners and like, just what is Formula One?

Yeah, absolutely. So it's a single seater category. So kind of like IndyCar, right? It's, it's that type of car. Open wheel is a way that some people would recognize it. Yeah, that's it. Open cockpit, open wheel traditional sport um very strong in europe um always has been but huge increase in popularity in the states and very strong in south america as well historically a really strong link with with drivers like eric

and senna etc and coming from south america it's always had a really strong historical link with south america but like we said wheel, 24 races this year. So a 24 race calendar spreading across the globe. The Americas, Australia, Asia. Yeah, multiples in Europe and bouncing between those. So we travel probably about 30 weeks a year between testing, racing, training camps. So pretty intense from a travel perspective.

And then the physicality of the racing side, well, 320 kilometers an hour, what is that in miles? It's about 200, somewhere in there. Yeah, about 220 miles an hour. Not just the speed, but it's the cognitive processing and the technical ability to be able to drive at that speed. The margins are tiny. So if you look at 20 cars in the grid,

when we look at qualifying, difference between first and 10th can be three-tenths of a second. I mean, it's worth pausing on that. Three-tenths of a second. And they call them pilots, right? We're colloquially calling them drivers, but they're called pilots because they're literally in a cockpit with a massive engine.

Absolutely. You know, and the demands that they have. So the Finding Mastery team was asking, like, why a performance coach, right? Like, I said, have you ever driven for three hours? I said, that's not so long. You know, it's a pretty significant drive. And when you get out of a car and you're just kind of going straight maybe, you know, for 65 miles an hour yeah like how about getting out of that car with hairpins and like downshifting

from ripping from 200 to 60 miles an hour or less in radical corners with other cars rubbing moving around and at any given point in time the thing could get out of control. That, how would you feel after the end of a two, three hour drive? And it's like, oh, okay. Okay. So that's the easy version that I have of it. Yeah. And it's interesting. We're here on training camp preseason, as we said.

He had his content person with him for a few days and they were just doing some filming. As we were doing some of his neck testing, So his preseason benchmark for his neck strength. I saw this on your social. Yeah. Well, it blew up. I'm not really a social media guy, but F1 ended up sharing it, but it was basically him three levels of neck training. It was 20 kilos, 40 kilos. And then his one RMs were 80 plus. One RM is one rep max. So the maximum amount he can take through side flexions,

which is cornering, and then extension, which is for braking. And what can he handle? So 83, left and right, roughly 83 and 76 extension. And the normal human, pencil neck like me? Oh, 15, 20 kilos maybe. Well, you, six. Yeah, I knew that was a lot of weight. You drew that out by being too generous there.

Yeah, right. But that's it, right? And again, you look at some of the comments under the video and exactly like you've expressed there, the level of surprise, why do they need to be that strong?

Like, that's incredible. He weighs 74 kilos. So his 1RM neck. What is that? 170? Multiply by 2.24. Yeah. Yeah,.24. Yeah. Yeah, about 170.

Yeah. Yeah. So his neck strength is greater than his body capacity. How about that? Yeah. And that's just one component. So if you take,

just take Silverstone, which is a really famous track in the UK, really historical track, right? Everybody knows the names of the corners there. And there's a sequence and it's four S's. True,'s called maggots and beckets but it's a really high speed sequence of four corners foot down no break just go but big changes of direction relatively big changes directions at that speed so therefore the g goes up and if you take one sequence of

those four corners just one lap is about 140 kilos through his neck at that speed. And he could do 120, 130 laps in a race weekend. Finding Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Solutions. In any high-performing environment that I've been part of, from elite teams to executive boardrooms, one thing holds true. Meaningful relationships are at the center of sustained success. And building those relationships, it takes more than effort. It takes

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I'm pretty intentional about what I eat, and the majority of my nutrition comes from whole foods. And when I'm traveling or in between meals, on a demanding day certainly, I need something quick that will support the way that I feel and think and perform. And that's why I've been leaning on David Protein Bars. And so has the team here at Finding Mastery. In fact, our GM, Stuart, he loves them so much. I just want to kind of quickly put

him on the spot. Stuart, I know you're listening. I think you might be the reason that we're running out of these bars so quickly. They're incredible, Mike. I love them. One a day, one a day. What do you mean one a day? There's way more than that happening here. Don't tell. Okay. All right. Look, they're incredibly simple. They're effective. 28 grams of protein, just 150 calories and zero grams of sugar. It's rare to find something that fits so conveniently into a performance-based lifestyle and actually tastes good. Dr. Peter Attia, someone who's been on the show, it's a great episode by the way, is also their chief science officer. So I know they've done their due diligence in that

category. My favorite flavor right now is the chocolate chip cookie dough. And a few of our teammates here at Finding Mastery have been loving the fudge brownie and peanut butter. I know, Stuart, you're still listening here. So getting enough protein matters. And that can't be understated, not just for strength, but for energy and focus, recovery for longevity. And I love that David is making that easier. So if you're trying to hit your daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for

you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash finding mastery. And if you don't have that just neck strength, your head is getting ping ponged around. You can't keep your eyes north or whatever, you know? Yeah, yeah. And so you're getting whipped around by the machine instead of you having that sense of strength and control both of body to have control of mind. So if your body's getting whipped around, I don't really care how skilled you are

from a psychological perspective. If you can't find a level because your body is so off access, it's very, very hard to do anything well. Impossible. He'll get out after qualifying sometimes. And this is the level of detail that he's at. He'll tell me-

Oh, wait, we should do qualifying. Yeah, yeah. Let's just do race day for a minute. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then to use that as a kind of a spine for after qualifying, the insight that you're going to share. So let's actually do this day in the life. Day in the life.

Race weekend. We arrive. Where are we going to arrive? Abu Dhabi? I'm actually going there in a couple of weeks. Oh, there we go. Okay, right. Segway. Yeah, right. So where are we going? arrive um abu dhabi i'm actually going there in a couple days oh there we go okay right so segue yeah right so where are we going give me a track name um a good track yeah let's go singapore do you like singapore oh you want to go let's go suzuka okay suzuka japan okay all right what about it's alex's favorite track oh there we go had to go there yeah okay

good so we arrive on a tuesday is that right yeah okay so we arrive on a tuesday um and we just maybe are ripping from i don't know what was before that was it mexico it's normally singapore actually oh so that's actually not so bad right that's not that's not well weirdly we stay on european time for singapore because it's a night race okay so then you end up having a huge shift and it's the most, Singapore is, outside of Qatar this year, is the most physical race of the year

because of the heat and the humidity. There you go. Yeah, so it's a brutal doubleheader. They've actually changed this year,

but it in itself is there. And doubleheader to you means back-to-back weekends. Back-to-back races, yeah. Okay, so you wrap up on a Sunday, jump on a flight, hunch down

to Japan, and let's say we're there on a on that day it's yeah on just say we arrive on a tuesday yeah okay all right cool yeah massive shift jet lag ways so jet lag planning across that sunday monday tuesday wednesday thursday is huge so one on average for every hour time zone, it's about one day to balance yourself. Yeah. So, so this is a, this is like, it's some level, it just gets ridiculous for these drivers because there's not enough time in the week. Right. Okay.

So it will be fun for us to talk about like, what are some of the strategies you use for time zone management? Absolutely. Yeah. Okay. But let's say, so time zone Tuesday, wake up but let's say so time zone tuesday yeah wake up there's a where am i and you know my body feels like it's 2 a.m but it's noon yeah absolutely so that's that's where that jet lag plan comes in so utilizing light utilizing exercise shifting his

meals to the times that we need him to be at to help his body adapt um so that tuesday will be very energy dependent so in the mornings you want to have as much light as you possibly can absolutely light caffeine and outside if you can't get outside you know you try to get a light spectrum do you guys do you travel with a with a white light uh we have done in the past when alex hasn't left in the hotel room. Yeah. Yeah. I was doing that up in Seattle a bunch. It was, I felt like we had a competitive advantage because it was prior to the understanding of how popularized light manipulation is.

And, you know, it's dark in Seattle, in the Northwest there. So, so light is really cool. So you're, you're using light as a training tool absolutely hydration as well probably yeah hydration good nutrition yep and that that's a little bit dependent on what's happened the weekend before so like we said most physical demanding race of the year so there's some replenishment there in terms of just nutritional value and absolutely is hydration so we do as you're in checks every morning check his hydration check his body weight what are you using like a gravity stick absolutely is that what you're using every morning yeah so when we travel every morning we we check his his urine gravity so that yeah and that's the glamorous

part of the job right when i'm not gonna sweat out of it are you digging in there i mean i've got gloves on i'm not sure what you mean by digging in there. So, all right. So you're using a stick basically to see, to be precise. Yeah, yeah. So you're not using color of urine. No, no, a digital refractor. Yeah, that's right.

Okay. Glamorous part. Okay. So, all right. And if under hydrated, the recipe is pretty easy. But are you using a sophisticated electrolyte or an off the shelf? We just use an off the shelf because there's a point at which you're just not going to take on any more of that. You're just going to expel it. So once we've topped up to that tolerance level, we're happy with that and we're comfortable with that as part of a nutritional plan, just an off the shelf.

All right. So then what happens next? So again, energy dependent. We'll have a session on Tuesday. That's an important statement, what you just said. Energy dependent. Absolutely. So how do you measure the energy? Is that subjective? When Alex says, I feel good. Or is it something else that you're looking at? Mixture, mixture of subjective. So he does a daily questionnaire for us. You do?

Yeah, absolutely. Particularly when we're traveling across multiple time zones. sure make sure of subjective so he does a daily questionnaire for us you know yeah absolutely um particularly when we're traveling across multiple time zones and then sleep quality really determines where we're at with energy um once we're measuring are you using wearables yeah okay and then is the is it the basic four questions for sleep soreness stress absolutely so and we put in readiness to train readiness to compete yeah yeah and then it's really important just to note that um that discipline is hard it's hard to keep up because it's so easy just to quote unquote eyeball it yeah and it's you're shaking your head like that's really sloppy it's sloppy and it leaves you exposed yes Yes. So, I mean,

without probably going on too much of a tangent, for me, there's a real line between me creating a performance environment for Alex to be able to show up in and demonstrate his ability versus me taking away his personal responsibility and his ownership over his own journey and his independence within that. That's a really cool insight.

Let's, I feel like this is how you and I work. Let's open that up. Let's open that up too. We're like, oh, there's 12 Pandora boxes here. Yeah, but that's really good. Do that again because that's not where I typically go with requesting data. So where I typically go with data management

is to have a trend line and reference points is one so that we can see trends across and try to get an understanding of what are some of the factors and influencers for ups and downs, let's say, to keep it simple. And then the other is it's a forcing function for reflection. Yes. And so those are really good, but you did something different in what you just said. So open that up again one more time. Yeah, so for me, it's, like I said, there's a thin line for me

between creating an optimal performance environment for an athlete to be able to turn up and compete in, versus taking away their personal responsibility and ownership over their journey. So you want to make sure that they have ownership. Absolutely. It's their journey. And so when they see data.

Yeah. So the ownership for them is, this is a key part of our performance preparation. It's you spending 30 seconds filling in a questionnaire on an app, which informs pretty much everything we do for the next week on a rolling basis. So if you don't do that part A, the rest of it falls down and that's your responsibility. It is guesswork. If you don't have,

it could be really good, but it's not sophisticated. And to your point, like almost everybody's exposed at that point. Yeah. And for me, what I've become comfortable with when the opportunity arises and it's necessary is some control failure, which is, and the perfect example of that happened over Las Vegas, which was incredibly busy week in terms of media commitments from a point of view insane performance was so far from the minds of any team in f1 that week the schedule was horrendous it was a night race but they decided to put qualifying on at 12 p.m i saw that yeah look it was it was so far away from ideal in terms of

preparation it wasn't even funny we got to post week and then traveling to abu dhabi and there was conversations to be had about how we planned that week from a team perspective and partnerships and media and contractual

things that he had to do that impeded on his performance but he hadn't filled in any data for me I see so we had that conversation in between Vegas and Abu Dhabi

I said you've left us exposed here because I can't have that conversation now because when I say here exposed here because I can't have that conversation now. Because when I say, here's the impact, I can't demonstrate that. That's your responsibility. I can do the back end.

You've got to do the front end. I can't guess how you're feeling. I can tell by your face and I can ask you, sleep okay last night? But that's not data. I can't use that. That doesn't demonstrate the trends that we've got over the last six years yeah for the mo for most of the us practitioners um

whether it's strength and conditioning or sports performance and maybe we even need to differentiate the two for for our community but in like 1980 1990 that's kind of how it worked you know and but then as we learned from the UK and from Australia and from some of the more sport science advanced forward leaning, um, data became more important and taking that data to applied information, that leap is, that's, that's the leap that is more rare than many would think. They get stuck in data management as opposed to information sharing. And I think you go through a journey, and I certainly went through the journey

where I had years of spreadsheets of data. Yeah. And having tons of data, and that was great. Yeah. But it didn't tell me anything, or I couldn't find the detail in there because it was just so much. Now we've got a really simple formula that works for us,

but it's responsive and reflective. And it tells us exactly what we need to do to be able to plan the next week and the next week and the next week. But we both have responsibility in that. So that's the one part, the responsibility. And then the other part you talk about creating the optimal environment. And so what's the tension between those two? That's less tangible.

That's a little bit more down to the relationship in the environment yeah and i'll say this and and the picture in my mind is me standing there falling alex's laundry because he you know i track getting his kit ready and being like bagging up his dirty laundry and folding his kit and making sure it's ready yeah and then i'm having this conversation about doing too much and and taking that responsibility away but i kind of jest about that stuff but but i've had experience in the past where on training camps going to a worlds which was a selection event for the olympic games and having a meeting with the head coach the night before with all the sports staff and just talking

about the logistics plan for the next day. And he was running through and I was probably drifting away a little bit just a few things that I had on my list. And I just heard him say and the athletes will bring their bags

down to the lobby and then the staff will load the bags onto the bus. And I just said, excuse me, what? And he was like, well, yeah,

you guys can load their bags. And I was like, we've got Olympic athletes here. What, they can't put their own bag on a bus? How about it? That's not a performance gain. You're not telling me

that them having just that simple responsibility of putting their bag on the bus is something that's going to detract from their potential to perform six days later. Yeah, that's right. I'm not on for that. You said that?

Yeah, I said they can put their own bag. I'm not lifting their bag. Yeah. You're telling me a guy who can wide arm chin, water arm, 90 kilos between his legs, who is an Olympic champion and a world champion, can't lift his bag on the bus. Right, yeah.

You know, and that for me was one of those moments where it just became that shift in mentality. What is the, what are we trying to do here? What's creating an environment for performance or stripping athlete independence? And we blame them then when they don't take responsibility, when all we've done is take it from them. And then we say suddenly, now that's your responsibility, do it.

Why didn't you do that? Well, we've taken that skill away from them. We've taken their focus away from preparation, ownership, responsibility. And I come back to that a lot. And I did a presentation this morning for some of our new coaches in the academy. And one of my points was, it's their journey. You're here to support. I heard you say that earlier.

It's a really strong statement you just made. I think there's maybe a crossover. I resonate so deeply with that. One, Carl Rogers was a mentor of mine that I never got to meet. And he influenced what's called Rogerian therapy, Rogerian psychotherapy. And so Carl Rogers had a fundamental belief and that everything a person needs is already inside them. And his job in the relationship is to have this unconditional positive regard and this curious lean towards how do you really work? What do you really want?

It's already in there. How can we unlock it? And so Carl Rogers, I think you have that spirit that it's in there for the person. And it's about like unconditional positive regard for the human. And then performance is a different thing. Couldn't agree more. Okay. And then add one level to it.

I think you and I vibe with is that you've got a history in boxing, both as an athlete and as a coach. Is that right? Yeah. Very low level. I was going to say, we're not going to talk about your record probably right yeah but did you did you act professional or amateur no no just some amateur stuff yeah okay cool yeah very cool i have respect for that too like being in a roped environment with another highly skilled human that is punching

you in the face or trying to um and there's nowhere to go oh it's actually my passion is boxing yeah i understand the culture of it yeah and you can be 20 and 0 or 0 and 20 and i've got the same level of respect for you see there you go because that's the unconditional positive regard it's not about performance output no do you lose respect when somebody um ducks ducks their chin and gives and starts to give their back? That's more a limitation of your ability. I think it's a limitation of your mind. You go to ability?

Yeah. I'm trying to be generous because I've not been in that position. Yeah. Oh, you're a tough guy. No, in terms of I've never been quick enough to duck my chin. That's so good. I was basically saying, you know, when know when you feel overwhelmed you're like get me out of here yeah no no you're ducking no never yeah because that you gotta lean into that yeah that's that but that's reflexive yeah is to is to try to get away from something that's overwhelming absolutely and just to drop

your hips to hold your chin down to make eye contact is a really, a very, very hard thing to do. And I have great respect for people that can do that, especially in that sport. But my point, my long winded way of saying when I did spend some time in MMA that we, the coaching staff there, and I put that in quotes, it was like a striking coach. It was like a technical coach in me, you know, but like sounded more sophisticated. And we had a very clear understanding that we were preparing the athlete to go into the cage by himself, period. And so it's their journey. When I hear you say that, it's such a regard for the other. That's a really cool gift that you, how you show up a regard for the other that's a really cool gift that you how you show

up that you give the other person yeah and i i say that from two perspectives one is exactly that i'm just a small part to help you to help to support you on that and the other power in it for a coach is it's not about me. So the same point has two reflections for me, which is the power to you as the athlete, but also the accountability to me as just the coach. And I've always had the opinion of knowing what an environment needs. And if that's quiet, then be quiet.

And if that's some energy, then bring some energy. But never try and dominate the environment or never try and make the environment about you because it's not. The privilege for us is to be in that space with somebody like Alex when he's preparing for a race or be in a dressing room with a boxer about to fight for a world title.

That's the privilege part of it. Nothing that you've done has gotten you to that point except for their work. So respect that environment and know that you're there to stand in the corner unless you're asked otherwise. And you don't have to demonstrate your value by noise. By what?

By noise. By what? Noise. Sorry, it was that. Are you going to subtitle it? It was easy. I love that one up for you. Yeah, it was that. Are you going to subtitle it? It was easy. I love that one up for you. Yeah, that was easy.

Thank you. It's all right. Yeah. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentus. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday. What you put in your body matters. And that's why I trust Momentous. From the moment I sat down with Jeff Byers, their co-founder and CEO, I could tell this

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at FelixGray.com for 20% off. Let me chin check that a little bit. Stay with the metaphor. You are world-class at what you do. Alex is world-class at what he does. The way I know how you work, you are not submissive. You are not deferent. You are not shy. You are not hiding. You are present. And I see you, I don't know how you see you, okay? I see you as a peer to Alex. You are both world-class at what you do. There is a partnership in place.

Alex has one job. You have another job. There is a difference though, in that he is hiring you. So there's that thing. And then there's also like, I am a support staff as well. Okay. So by definition, I understand what we're talking about. And my philosophy is to be the hand that leaves the pond without a trace. So I think that you're just- That's what I'm trying to say, really. Yeah, I said it better, but it's okay.

Well, you did. I'm joking. Just a little bit. No, no, because, but I see you as a peer. Yeah. And you can do that. You can be all of those things

in that environment for your athlete. I don't know if I'm articulating it well enough, but it's, that environment's not about you. That's okay. However, this is your life too. Yeah, for sure. And your experience in life is really important and you are world-class of what you do. And part of the world-class is the way that you take up space without saturating the space. Is that fair to say? That's probably exactly what I'm trying to say. Yeah, I like that.

It's the know what you're there for, judge the environment, bring your skill set to that, support your athlete. But know what the space needs you know there's times i will bring energy to a space yeah because that's what it needs and there's certainly times through our preparation i know we we got a little bit off topic but certainly how we create the environment for alex to and we call it his flow state how he connects to what he feels is the optimal space for him to perform in car. There's stuff that we do around that performance that we know we need to do to create that mental space for him to be able to step into the car. And I think if you, if practitioners looked at us and how we prepare in hospitality and in the garage to go, these two are jokers. But everything that we do is a conscious decision

around what he needs in those final moments to create that space for him to be able to step into the car in the right frame of mind. And like I said, try and replicate that flow state

as much as he possibly can. And that's still a work in progress. So in the zone, flow state, it has lots of different terms, right? But there's times where we don't do that. There's times where he needs quiet and he needs peace and he needs space to reflect. And it's not all one mood suits all scenarios.

So it's, as a practitioner, it's knowing what those spaces are and how you turn up in those spaces and what you bring to them or what you take away from them. And that's just as important sometimes. Yeah. What I hear for you right now is the dimensionality you have that comes after you are aware. So with the awareness, so you have a philosophy and a position that you hold, which is unconditional positive regard for Alex. And there's an agreement and a partnership that you are going to help him be his very best. Is there a reciprocal commitment that he has an unconditional positive regard for you and he's going to help you be your best? I would say he certainly has an unconditional positive regard for me and what I bring to him.

It feels that way when I'm around you guys. And I've always been very clear and I've only had to threaten him once. You haven't what? I've only had to threaten him once. Genuinely. Did you drop your hips? Pull your chin down? Look him in the eye?

Did your hands come up? Alex is a lover. He's not a fighter. To be fair, he actually is a fighter. He's had to fight every step of his career. Oh, that way? Yeah. And we had him in a boxing gym yesterday and we're in a boxing gym tomorrow.

He's really long. He is. He's got some power too. Yeah. Does he? Yeah. Yeah. You know what?

Like, let's celebrate him for a minute. Like, just how free he is. Yeah. He's just, I don't know what color his hair is today but like he's just so free he needs to do something about his hair at the minute it's it's his natural color but I'm not sure what he's doing

is this your your other barber shop as well well I'm just worried the helmet won't fit in his head oh he's got a lot of hair right now yeah he's just let he's just let it be oh that's good

it's but he's to see somebody be themselves in a high stakes, high pressured, um, exacting environment and to have that freedom to the, the courage to get free is a better way to say it is so refreshing. This is really what I, what I wanted to focus on is how you've created the relationship and the environment for the athlete to be or the pilot, the driver, to be himself. That is a radical bit of work to do that. Who cares, honestly, from my standpoint about how strong his neck is? And obviously it's a capability.

Absolutely. and obviously it's a capability absolutely and and i more and more now coming to the realization that the physical stuff is easy are you getting my faith and getting them healthy is easy that's child's play getting him top three on the grid that's that's the job and like he said and i'm probably drifting from my own philosophy there which is it's actually about the individual and developing him the sport kind of comes second really um because i know when alex is in a space where exactly like you've described where he's confident and comfortable in expressing himself exactly how he wants to. And he's being able to operate within his own philosophy, how he wants to treat people in that space.

And you've been in Formula One, you've worked in it, worked drivers, how challenging an environment that can be. Very challenging. For sure. And, you know, not a lot of things in Formula One are real. So it's hard to be real in a space like that. And the most- What does that mean?

Authentic. That's it. Authentic, really. There's a lot of bullshit. Yeah. I didn't know we could say that on the pod. Oh, yeah. Yeah, there's a ton of bullshit.

Yeah. That was quite liberating. Thank you for that. Thank you for the permission. You're Irish roots. Yeah. I'm just holding them back are you

yeah don't worry can I help you open up a little yeah yeah right so yeah there's a

there's a lot of wealthy bullshit a lot of promises yeah yeah 100% fakeness like I said

people who aren't genuine about their intentions offer you the world and deliver nothing. So for me, actually the proudest part of what I do right now is

just seeing him walk in the paddock dressed how he wants to dress with blonde hair, red hair, who cares? Yeah. And knowing that actually that's the best space for him to perform,

which is he's authentic. He's Alex. His core values are honesty, integrity, trust, treat people how you want to be treated, treat people with respect. And when he's in that space, that's the power that he's got. And if we can protect that and he gets into the car in that space, wow. Watch out.

It's next level. Yeah. Yeah. Watch out. Yeah. I think one of the under celebrated and more powerful practices is for, and you can deploy this or use this with your life partner, with the athlete you're working with, with your friends, with your supervisor or your direct report. It's bidirectional.

Is to spend the quiet time to try to understand what is uniquely special about a human. And then have conversations to elicit what, what that is. So you're not just making it up in your imagination, but you're having conversations, trying to understand what is really special about this person and then convey it back. And then you, you use the word protect, which I usually don't use. Um, but let's use it. You hold that in such a sanctuary that, that it would be natural to protect that right so i get i get where you're going that is and then so when somebody does that with me like oh i feel seen oh the parts of me that i feel are special or recognize and like and this person's gonna have

my back to help me be that more often i feel that right now even even in my throat, dude. Like my whole body goes, that's love. Yeah. And that's exactly what it is. It's initially giving him our, I wouldn't say give him the permission to do that, but letting him know that that's okay. If we changed one word instead of letting, because I saw you struggle with giving permission, letting is almost the same thing? Because it's not mine to own, but it's creating up. Not even create. Tell me. Tell me what the word is.

You're more articulate. I don't know another word other than exploring or celebrating. And I liked protecting. Celebrating is good. It's like finding what's special and holding that in a special way. Yeah. And reassuring that it's okay to be that like that's a really phenomenal quality to have and just because other people don't demonstrate that or

you can't see that in a lot of people around you doesn't mean that you have to behave any different that's right oh that's very cool dude yeah yeah and i'll follow that on because it's something that i get asked a lot is he too nice drives me insane right drives me does he have a insane can he finish can he really drop the hammer and fight my answer to that is if you knew anything about alex's backstory there's nothing about his journey that he hasn't earned through digging his fingernails in. Like, incredible backstory. So,

you can put that aside. He's not a rich kid who's bought a seat all the way through the categories and ended up in Formula One. He's had to work for every seat. Which is a very common. Very, very common.

Yeah. And increasingly more common. He's just somebody who has made a choice about how he wants to represent himself in that environment. And he's comfortable enough and strong enough as an individual to stay within that philosophy, even when it's challenged. That doesn't mean when he gets in the car, he wouldn't run over his grandmother because he would. He's an absolute born competitor. And when it comes to that car,

get out of his way. And there is no stone left unturned in terms of his physical preparation, his technical preparation, his time with engineers, the level of detail he will go to to set the car up exactly how it needs to be set up based on the track, the conditions, his style. When he's on track,

you know, he's always got close to the max penalty points per year because he's a competitor you know you don't get to where he's at right now by not being a competitor and not being ruthless but people misinterpret how he wants to represent himself with being too nice or too soft as if that's some predetermining factor for why he may not have won a world championship yet. Kindness and excellence don't go together. Kindness and competitiveness don't go together. No, that's a choice. That's a choice you make.

And actually the strength is making the choice to stay who you are. I bought it. That's worth saying again. Say that one more time. The strength is making the choice to stay who you are. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've

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day. And they make my morning routine really easy. They've got some great new products I think you'll be interested in. A shampoo, conditioner, and a hair serum. With Caldera Lab, it's not about adding more. It's about choosing better. And when your day demands clarity and energy and presence, the way you prepare for it matters. If you're looking for high-quality personal care products that elevate your routine without complicating it, I'd love for you to check them out. Head to calderalab.com slash findingmastery and use the code findingmastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash finding mastery. You have to first know who you are. And did you do anything that is repeatable for you to

understand how you might've assisted or helped him know himself better? Or did he come to the environment pretty well clear? No. First two years. Yeah, you've been with him six, I think. Six years, yeah. And so the first two years he was... A lot of figuring out. A lot of really old strategies.

A lot of really old beliefs that he'd formed through his career. And through his experience with family and friends and all of those relationships that he was trying to utilize in this new environment that just were not working. And beliefs around his performance and kind of, we talked about the flow state, but that's so far away from what he thought he needed to create in those first year or two of certainly around qualifying. He actually thought it was the opposite. He had this belief coming in that he actually needed, the more pressure he created on himself,

the better his performance would potentially be. And that came from a space. And when we spent time digging down into that, it was, like I said, there was categories where he'd gone race by race, not knowing if he'd have have a seat the next race never mind if he'd have a seat for the season so there was clearly periods in that where those performances were so pressurized and he would produce a performance that put him on pole or put him second and then he'd win a race or he'd come on the podium so he created this belief that it was the pressure that did that, right? It was the pressure created in the environment for me to be able to perform.

And my challenge to that for him was, your performances were actually in spite of that pressure. That if you had the strategies in place to be able to negate that pressure or actually deal with it better or prepare better or understand yourself more in terms of what you needed to create from a performance point of view, who knows what those results would have been. And we've gone completely

to the other end of the spectrum now. And that's why I talked about earlier, you know, we laugh and we joke in our warmup and we come into the garage and we're still laughing. But the second he pulls that balaclava on, boom, he's there. But we don't need to create that pressure.

We want him, you know, we talk about flow, we flow through everything that we do, especially when it comes to a session, especially when it comes to qualifying. Everything's set up. We just move, kit's ready, gets kit ready. We move into the garage.

He does his warmup. We're not looking for stuff. We're not unbagging stuff. We're not, oh, I forgot this. Everything is there for him to move sequentially through. Keep it light. We warm up in the garage because we want the boys involved.

We want the mechanics involved. We want the mechanics involved. We want to have a laugh as we do that. We get into the garage. So when we get there, because he's a field driver, it's all about his intuition. It's all about what he feels

through his hands and his bum and what he sees. The more he thinks about it, the slower he is. So we need to get all of that noise away from him. Keep all that light. Keep all that fresh.

Balaclava on, helmet on, in the car. Know your procedures. Go out and deliver so the the less space he has to think about things before he gets in the car exponentially better he is cool even down to so then you occupy movement and task at hand focus as opposed to um leaving down time for analysis. There is the space for that because he needs that. Everybody does. Yeah. But you're not letting that just run.

No, we're in control of every minute. We need to be. And it might not look like we're in control of every minute, but everything that we do is down to the minute. And even down to, we want him in that unconscious competence space, just go and do. Trust your body. Trust your body.

Trust your ability to figure it out. Like, let it go. The second you start thinking, you're losing time. Even down to the steering wheels and all the cars will have a delta, which gives you your lap time, either plus or minus each corner and what we'd figured out again when we'd come to this realization around how do we create this space and then we got

down to the technical right what are the things in the car that we can support you with to help clear your mind allow you to access that more and he goes well there's a delta on my screen that tells me every every corner where my time is so he said i go through a corner and i'm a i'm a tent down all i'm thinking about is i need to get a tent back i'm already not present i go to a corner i've got two tents up because right don't lose that two cents don't lose it two times you're already in the next corner and you're worrying about the two tenths that you've had in the corner before you took the doubt the game's way too fast and and when we got challenged by his engineers, our response to it was,

there's not one lap on a race weekend that Alex Albon isn't attacking at 150%. Yeah, so why? So why do we need to see the time? Yeah.

When he finishes, when he crosses that finish line, the time is absolutely the time that he could have delivered in that moment. Okay, there could be some mistakes in there, conditions might etc but never doubt the delivery in terms of his commitment

to that one lap so we don't need to know if he's up or down it is a awesome commitment to the process trusting that his process is to push his trust his process is to get to the right feel from his bum from his hands and what was the third variable his visual his visual to trust that that he's getting it on edge and and he's he's using that data as opposed to plus one minus one that's really cool yeah that's really cool and that comes from um a commitment he has to make that no i'm pushing trust me yeah i'm gonna push yeah yeah right don't doubt me yeah right that is a philosophy he lives by in terms of his driving is that his philosophy don't doubt me that's part of

it that's something we've built in and that's his next step in terms of his development like what the difference between don't doubt that on me versus like bet on me yeah right it's a flip i wonder but i also i'm not overly convinced by it because it's externalizing it. Yeah. It's like you're looking for approval. We don't need approval. You're already here. That's right.

Yeah. And you're demonstrating your potential. And I say potential intentionally because he's not even close to where he can get to. And that's the scary part is he's still on that journey and he's made huge steps, like incredible steps. And that's what we can see on track right now. Like we talk about Alex in the paddock, that's Alex, you know, five years on a journey. But where he can get to is scary. That must be really fun for you.

Yeah, it's exciting. What is your, do you, have you worked on articulating your philosophy? My own. Your personal philosophy or it's a mixture of coach the individual not the sport so that's the phrase i've used a lot yeah that's cool that's definitely i think that that's more of a professional philosophy yeah like that's your approach and if i go down personally into that it's that's a really good question and it's not one that i've necessarily articulated it's a good bit of work yeah it's a really good question and it's not one that i've necessarily articulated it's a good

bit of work yeah it's a really good bit of work and my instinct is cool to go to it's about the relationship yeah it's about the power of the relationship one of the first principles that i work from is through relationships we become and so then you say what does that mean uh well we're a work in progress we're becoming it's the relationships that is the the antecedent it's the the um the vehicle for that and it begins with the relationship with yourself relationship with others mother nature experience your relationship with experience and i'm adding now your relationship with machines because right they're coming yeah they're probably coming. So yeah, very cool. So now we're talking about structuring the relationship. We're talking about creating

an environment and that environment is to support the athlete to be, to be their very best, to be in an ideal state, to trust themselves, to be able to manage whatever's happening. You're scripting the time, but feeling your way through it's almost like your dance partners yeah feeling your way through is it more um jazz or is it like is it more ballet where it's very clearly orchestrated or is it more like and i'm using music now from dance to music is it more like jazz like when he riffs this i know how to pivot off that i would say it's more a little bit more scripted in terms of just that's how he likes to prepare there's not a lot that's off sheet so if i were to watch from day from one race to the next race it's pretty similar i would say 80 of what we do is probably consistent. So 80% structure, no, 80% form,

20% breaking form. Yes. And that breaking form is the jazz bit. That's the jazz bit. That's the expression. That's the expression. Because the performance side still comes first. And what does that mean?

That the consistency of your performance behavior is just as important. So, you know, we spent the first few minutes of the podcast talking about jet lag plans and our commitment to following that because that's the science. That's the formal bit. That's the 80%. That's the bit that we can't deviate from because we know that's what underpins how we prepare. The 20% is the expression. The 20% is the fun in the garage, the jokes around the car, even though I know that's part of the structure, but that's still self-expression.

That's the bit that we can have some fun with. What do you do to be your very best? How do you take care of that? Because your profession is to help somebody else be their very best. It's a noble life commitment. How do you, what do you put in plan for you to be your best?

I think there's two parts to that. One is I went on my own journey and i've had my own coaching for the last seven eight years um and that's working on oh that's a new pod yeah this is the place my own stuff it's just you and me yeah like millions yeah my own beliefs from my own childhood and beliefs I had about myself and attitudes to work and things that was, people I was trying to impress that didn't need to be impressed,

that already loved me. And you can guess how those kind of people are. And that's, you know, a similar journey to Alex in that it's okay to be me. And that's all I was doing at times is getting in my own way and striving for something that wasn't really important to me. Actually the important stuff were again,

the relationships. Yeah. And once I started to step away from that and I really unpick some of that stuff that I, some of that baggage I was bringing, the relief was incredible. But also the freedom I have now in terms of, you know, I have a love for Alex that is professional and personal in terms of the relationship that we've got. But if it's not right, I could step away from that job in the morning. I don't want to, but I can.

And there's a power in that for me as well that means my professional career is a choice and and i can choose what i want to do um but i don't think i could have done that six seven years ago because i think i was being dictated to by assumptions and attitudes that i'd made for myself around, oh, you need to be here. And I remember standing, and this is really weird because it came back to me recently. I was in a job. It wasn't fulfilling me by any stretch of the imagination.

Performance-based or something else? Performance-based, but a little bit more administrative, a little bit more managerial. Just wasn't floating my boat, but it was a very good job. And I remember, and this girl is still a friend of mine she's a physiotherapist and we were standing in the canteen making a cup of tea and i just had a day of like this is just not for me and i guess you could sense that energy and she said are you okay and i the phrase and it sounds dickish i said i always thought my life would be exceptional in terms of, and I think I meant from a career point of view. And here I was looking at spreadsheets and I handed in my notes six weeks later.

And two days after that, I got a call to be the lead physio for the British Canoon Olympic squad for a reel. Wow. Yeah. Wow. And that was a really special moment. That was a big transition for me big shift in terms of taking back control yeah dude yeah making that choice and i you know the the support from a coach came after that but i was already starting to like push my way through to through

the weeds what part of your upbringing was it micro traumas or big traumas? No, just, no, no, I wouldn't call them micro traumas or big traumas, but a very traditional Irish upbringing, like parents who loved us incredibly so.

Didn't have a lot, like working class family, both parents left school at 12 because they had to really incredibly intelligent people who worked hard.

And there was just attitudes that I had around. Northern or? Oh, that's controversial. It's all the same. Where are you going? It's all the same you said? incredibly intelligent people who worked hard and there was just attitudes that i had northern or or uh that's controversial it's all the same where are you going it's all the same you said to me it is yeah there you go okay that's that's a percentage of your listenership that's gone yeah or at least i'm gone yeah right i'm blocked now uh from the south republic yeah so place called leash little small farming, farming backgrounds. I always felt

that the sacrifices that our parents made for us needed to be repaid. Got it. And I was searching for a way to repay that and I just didn't need to. They loved me for who I was

and they were incredibly proud of what I'd done even up to that point. And they still are. They love sport. We were a sports, sports crazy family. My dad dad was a coach had another job but would have made a phenomenal coach if the opportunity and and the time had been different yeah and I think that was the biggest release for me around I don't need to repay them just yeah there you go that was the freedom for

me in that and it sounds also like the um a rite of passage from childhood to adulthood for you right like there's a rite of passage there that like oh wait we're separate we're family um my life is my life his life is his life yeah and he's got an unconditional view and a positive regard back to carl rogers yeah of who i am and who i'm trying to become and the incredible thing about them considering where they grew up and the experience that they had they were they were strict parents when we were young but then we got to a point and it was like right every everything's your choice now and we're here to support you but

the decisions you make are yours to make it sounds like the way that you're coaching alex it is and your boxers i'm reflective of that and and their thing was those consequences to every decision you make and you need to own those consequences we're here to support you no matter what happens but it's all you know and it took me about 12 years to realize that in terms of the freedom of that and you know they're on the sidelines cheering me on they love it they love alex they love the boxers mike like everything everything i do they watch you know they watch every race they're not formula one fans we grew up in the middle of ireland we grew up around tractors not formula one cars and but

they're incredibly proud of that journey. But I didn't see that. But that issue was me. That wasn't them. They never stopped demonstrating that for me, but I just couldn't see it. This is something you're probably going to be able to pass on to your son now. I hope so.

And people make the joke, what professional sport is he going to be in? And I'm like, he can do whatever he wants yeah right the only the only caveat i have is i would like him to find a passion i would like to find something that he needs to dedicate himself to yeah that requires a discipline it's cool yeah yeah that's just they're good life skills so mastery is something i've dedicated my life to and so there's mastery of self and craft and I I'm far more interested in mastery of self and it's through craft so mastery of self so I'm I don't I don't care what the craft is yeah you know it could be anything and I remember

when I was I never cared to work with professional athletes. And I get asked often, every week I get, you know, questions like, I'm inspired by your path. And like, how can I work with professional athletes? And I quickly fire back, it's the wrong question. You know, it's not the question. All I wanted to work with, and this is not healthy. This was, go back like 35 35 years ago is um i just wanted to work with people that were as obsessed as i was to to growth and my obsession was not healthy at the time so that's why it's not right i didn't understand what i know now about like the patience of it. Yeah. And the decoupling who I am from what I do.

And so, right. Yeah. And that's a huge part of Alex. The growth is that identity step. He took that step. Yeah. He is not a driver. No, he's Alex Alvon.

That's right. I think that some of the most dangerous words in for humans is I am. And what follows after that is incredibly freeing or restricting. And if you say I am a driver, okay, that might get you world class. It might get you really good. But I don't see freedom and flourishing in that model.

No. And the question, what do you do? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Don't ever ask me that question. Yeah. That's your favorite cocktail question. What do I do?

Second question. What do you do? What do I do? How do you answer it? Do you do? Second question. What do you do? What do I do? How do you answer it? Do you bless? I just say not much. You do? Yeah, now I say not much.

Yeah, not much. Just let it go. Yeah. When you want to understand how somebody spends their time and you just want to get a feel for them, I bristle at the question as well. But I'm wondering what you replace that with or how you shape a conversation to get to know the person

in a semi-casual, noisy environment. Ask a little bit about them. Yeah, like? Simple stuff. Where have you come from? Yeah. Have you got siblings? Connect them to something that is real for them,

something that grounds them. Yeah, right. Like that is real for them. Yeah. Something that grounds them. Yeah, right. Like that's, that's grounding for everybody. You know, in some form has a family. Everybody in some form has a home. And, and you can tell a lot from those answers where that conversation is going to go. A thousand percent. Yeah.

If their face lights up or face doesn't, then it's, you know, you're, you know, you're on or off and you switch the conversation. But for me, I've had the same identity shift a few years probably before Alex. And that's probably why I'm in a space where I can help him with that. We only give what we have, by the way. We can't give what we don't have. If we don't understand something, we can't give that or create the conditions to water it, to put sunlight on it. And so if we are anxious or agitated or whatever, that's what we give. And sometimes those in coaching, whatever, fill in the blank, whatever sport or art or business discipline,

is that we think that that's the right requirements, the pressure model. If we can just like, I gotta, you gotta push people. I rarely, if ever talk about pushing, I talk about support and challenging and there are standards and there's some agreements that we're going to make.

And I have a role and you have a role. And do we want to do the work together? Yeah. That's kind of like the initial pack. I don't know if I ever told you this, but my wife and I, we had seven years into our marriage. She says, I love you, but you got to go. Like I'm losing my way, Mike. And as a friend, I'm telling you, I don't know how to be me around you. And it was life-changing for me. And I was devastated. Best friend, we dated in high school, like my person. And I said, no, no, no, no, no. Like, come on. Like, I'll do whatever. And she's like,

I told you a hundred times, nothing's changed. You know, as she's crying and saying, as a friend, I need you to move out. I say this, I'm shorthanding the story because a month, so I did as a best friend, I moved out to honor the space that she needed. And I know as a psychologist that oftentimes separation is straight path to divorce. You usually don't claw back or return back home. And so I was terrified. That's not what I wanted, but as a friend, like that's okay. So a month later, um, and this was not about her running around the streets and that we were honoring our, our, our code and the whole thing. And so she, um, a month later I called and I was like, you know, can we, can we talk? And, um, I, I was texting in between trying to, trying to talk every day, but I knew I needed more space.

We have a phone and she goes, I said, let's go to therapy. And she said, I made my decision. I was like, just one session. I made my decision. I said, just one session. Just one. We have 20 to 15 years at that time together. One.

Fine. So we show up. wise woman across from us um identify with my italian roots she's full full latin and we're at it this is like 12 minutes into the session and we are at it and the woman goes whoa whoa whoa whoa she says okay this is about as bad as it gets and she's kind of like this is bad now now. And so she says, all right, I've got one question for you. Mike, you know you need to work, right? I was like, yeah. Lisa, you know you need to work, right?

She goes, yeah. She says, here's the question. Do you want to do the work with each other or do you want to do the work with another partner? I said, holy shit, this is it. This moment. Right? Wow. Yeah, that moment.

And so when I say, do you want to do the work? And I ask that to an athlete. I am going right to that place. Yeah, that moment. That moment where everything dropped out and i was completely flooded with the fear of what it means to do the work the fear of what she was going to say and all of the willingness to fight right and so um i paused i'm looking at her and it felt like an eternity and she goes i want to do the work with him.

I said, me too, me too. So I'm like, let's go, let's go. Please, yeah. Didn't try and start it out. No, no, straight out. I was not cool about it. On the back of the end of that sentence. And so we did the work.

And we'd been married 35 plus years. It's been epic. And so when I ask somebody, do you want to do the work? I'm creating space in that moment for that question to feel what that person is going to say. And if they shuck and jive or they dismiss it and they quickly say, yeah, you know, or what, I need to feel that. Do you do something similar to, it's one of the gates i need to get through to partner with

somebody yeah firstly really appreciate you sharing that yeah man that's that's an incredible story yeah um and yeah just really privileged to hear you tell me that so thank you thanks man i have the same i have a similar question why are we here that's my question that. Why are we here? That's my question. That's why are we here? Why are we here? You've asked for a conversation with me. I'm here. Why are we here? Oh, that's cool. Yeah.

And I can tell you in, within 20 seconds, if we're here for a reason or not, or if I'm already out the door, you know, it's when I hear I, I just need, what do you need? I just need some help. I just need some, like, I just need somebody to do you need? I just need some help.

I just need some, like, I just need somebody to kind of, you know, help me gym or like, you know, make sure I do my work. And I was like, what? Yeah. You're telling me you want to be a world champion and this is the level we're at. If I don't see passion or if I don't see a love or a joy for what they do, and a perfect example of that is, I get, like probably you,

I get contacted a lot to work with younger athletes, especially in motorsport, right? Kids in karting who want to be a Formula One driver, but they're eight years away. But they've got budget and, you know, if you want to get into that, you can get into that. Yeah, exactly. But through somebody that I know,

I offered to help out this kid a little bit just do a little bit of physical testing on him biologically very young for his age so struggling a little bit physically so just said look i'll do some testing on him just see where he's at but understand that a lot of this is biology he's just not hit maturity yet and he's just not on that journey so he's a little bit behind but he had a lot of this is biology he's just not hit maturity yet and he's just not on that journey so he's a little bit behind but he had a lot of talent and i asked him that question really articulate young kid again what was the age did you say he's 13 13 okay yeah but but biologically looked like nine okay yeah okay really sweet kid and i didn't have time for this i just like i i mean my schedule was rammed and it was in between races

and it was I was doing it at the boxing gym so I could tag on a session with my boxers and just fit him in and it was one of those scenarios

right just dreading it going there going why am I coming here and I asked him that question and his face lit up and he goes

I just love racing he goes I just love driving fast he goes and then he just took off i love overtaking people i love going into a corner side by side with somebody and just seeing who will hold on and i was just like i'm in i'm still working with him now and i don't have time to work with him but i'm making the time yeah because it was just that spark of his face changed the second i asked and he knew exactly why we were there we were there because

he loved racing and he just wanted to be better that's different i don't know my dad wants me here yeah like i you know like i this is i i thought you worked with good play peep uh drivers and are the bullshit i want to be a world champion i want to be yeah i'm already out if that's your go-to that's just a stock answer how much of when you listen are you listening to words versus the the shaping and the contour of the words the the emotions more connecting to the emotions of it are you listening to skilled people can deliver words yeah and do it charismatically and whatever but are you listening to your emotion or are you listening to their emotion listening to their emotion yeah trying to connect to it trying to find that connection what because that builds a relationship for me i need to connect to

what you're fundamentally here for because i'm not giving up my time with my family that's right to spend time with you if you can't demonstrate to me that you're all in. I love this. And what do you do to prepare yourself to be available to feel what's happening in another person? So when I worked through my own coaching, I had my intentional state was sacred presence. Sacred presence. And for me, that is the highest form of listening and just be in the moment and listen.

Listen to what they're saying. Listen, like you said, for the words, but listen more for the feeling. Listen for the connection. What are you connecting to? Because, you know, you talk about mastery and when that question came through what do i think mastery is for me it's dedicating yourself to a journey um and doing it with joy

doing it with love doing it with passion in spite of the sacrifices so knowing that that journey is difficult and the likelihood of success may be one%, but you're still dedicating yourself to that. That's the journey I'm on in terms of, okay, I can go on that with you. Because your commitment to that is driven by something so far deeper than I just want to win stuff. You can't articulate that to me.

As in, that doesn't connect to me. Sorry, that's the wrong phrase, but I can't connect to that i definitely but i can connect to a love for what you do yeah and i can i can sense that the minute you start talking about it to me you know we talked a little bit about you know me and being in a little bit of a transition and the scales balancing up a little bit in terms of the sacrifice versus what I get from the job. And that's always a question I ask myself this time of year, staring into a 30-week travel schedule.

But for me, the passion, love, and joy for what I do is still there in terms of the connection to their journeys. And if you say it simply, what I do is? In terms of your professional life. what I do is? In terms of your professional life. What I do is build relationships. I thought that's what you were going to say.

Yeah. Dude, I love how you think. And it was just, we started this conversation about that early spark. It was a loud bar.

Yeah. And was it, was it like on a, it was in like the W Hotel. It was chaos. It was chaos. Yeah. It was like, it's on a um it was in like the w hotel it was chaos it was chaos yeah it was like it's like tuesday race week yeah it was the people who are in for a week like they're in for a party week if you're there on a tuesday of a race week you're not there in a race and that particular

the f1 race in miami was the first ever first one and it was like what was it? It was like billionaire row meets like solicitation of business and sex. And like, it was wild. Yeah. Yeah. It was so far from anything that was sports performance related. And you and I are in this loud environment talking about like, what do you love? Yeah. Yeah.

Like how do you think about how we coach? Yeah. Yeah. Like, how do you think about how we coach? Yeah. Yeah. So good. Like philosophy. I remember some of that like talking about,

and I'm very similar to what we were just talking about while we were in the space. Yeah. While we were here. Yeah, that's right. Over a beer in a bar.

Over a beer. Yeah. Yeah. So, okay, so now we've gotten through Tuesday. Wow. Yeah. How long is this part yeah i

know so now like all right maybe can we spend a few minutes to talk about we you and i spend so much time with quote-unquote the best in the world you know and people fundamentally committed to it whether they're knocking at the door there whatever know, and people fundamentally committed to it, whether they're knocking at the door there or whatever, but certainly the people you're spending time with are in it. I know that you've got an interest in the developmental part prior to, so the youth aspect of it. What are you doing there? Tell me, like, cause you're, you're in mid-flight for your phd yes and you just shifted your dissertation to yeah so looking i guess i guess the precursor to the shift was um from this season on i'm going to be the academy performance lead for williams racing young driver academy that's right yeah

so we've got six six drivers across uh formula two which is the category below Formula 1, then Formula 3, a category called Frecca, which is below Formula 3 in between single-seater cars. So that's the first entry-level single-seater car. And it's go-kart before that? Go-kart, exactly. And we've got a kid in go-karting as well. You do have a car. So he's current European champion, yeah. So right from you're one step away to you're a lot of steps away.

Yeah, got it. And so the front end of the role is put a science structure in place, put a performance structure in place to help support these young athletes, develop the physical capacity and start bolting on some of the behaviors that we expect from people who operate in a professional sports environment. Cool. So that's the tagline right yeah my philosophy around that is well how do we help these kids get better at just being themselves you know because if they got the technical ability we put the right processes in

place and we give them the behavioral and emotional strategies to be able to exist in that environment, or at least the ability to question, the ability to be self-aware, the ability to articulate themselves, communicate, and build relationships of their own, exponentially for me more likely to be successful. So I guess for me, the tagline was the performance structure. The depth of that was, well, how do we help them? What influences success in those environments? So my doctorate has very much shifted now to looking at talent identification in young athletes. Are there characteristics that we see in young athletes

that make them more likely to be successful, both physical, mental, behavioral, cognitive, technical? Do you use cognitive and psychological interchangeably? Yeah. So for me, cognitive is more the technical aspects of the racing, which is memory recall. Yeah, it's more brain. More brain function as opposed to emotional strategies. Yeah, exactly.

So are there characteristics that we can look at that are setting these kids up to be successful? Or are there characteristics that we can see in these kids or characteristics that are missing that mean they're more likely to be unsuccessful? But having trawled through a lot of research in the space, and obviously not a lot in motorsport, but a lot of research elsewhere in football and NFL and rugby and multi-team sports.

People look what they call multi-dimensional assessment, but actually nobody looks at the environment. And very little of the research is actually looking at the individual. So there's a questionnaire here or there. There is this sort of assessment but but how do we what questions are we asking these young kids about performance about their journey about who they are as individuals about how that can set them up and how that you know what are the barriers there to you being better at what you do and if they can't articulate that right now how are we helping them to articulate that and understand that how sophisticated um are you do you want to be with talent identification on this part of it

i mean we're talking about um using technology or subjective so a lot of this is subjective well the technology part comes in on more of the physical technical assessment and then the rest is for me at the minute subjective in in terms of more qualitative based experiences, understanding. That's the level we're at. I think that's just the entry level, right? And that's the doctorate right now. What I'm not trying to do is, here's the checklist.

And if this kid ticks off all these boxes, then they're going to be successful. Because that's not how it works. There's that thing about the X factor. Yeah. The things that we don't know. Yeah. And we placed them in these environments,

you know, the way it works in motorsport, where we are, they're part of our academy, but they're placed at teams. And the teams are kind of fundamentally looking after them for the season. But what are those environments like?

What are the attitudes of the engineers and the team principals in those environments? What do they understand about sports performance? What do they understand about developing young athletes? What do they understand about a young kid who's facing adversity and pressure from family and they're in your space and they're maybe underperforming?

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but he spent 18 months. And you saw him and he recognized you and was on the street. And what would you hope if you said, what did you learn? What would you hope he says? That he understood himself more. Yeah, period.

Yeah. Yeah, so shocker coming from you yeah yeah right like okay this is starting to get boring yeah right now that well that's what i would hope to yeah i mean kind of even a mistake like i've got better kind of controls over my hands or i know where to look on the track to have hit the apex a little bit faster or so it's not cognitive it's not technical they're going not technical. They're going to get those. They're going to get the physical training and all that. But you said, I know myself better. So is this question about talent identification?

Or is this question about examining the environmental conditions for flourishing, for knowing oneself better? So that's study three. Got it. Yeah, I see. So the title and the precursor is the, let's just look at what we've got right now in terms of athletes, quantitative, qualitative. Let's look at what we're creating for them. And then now let's look at the space.

Once we understand- That's really cool. Once we understand our house more, let's go outside. So the environment is, so there's culture and environment. Let's use those two words in the same category, but they're very different. Environment is the conditions and culture is the way that people relate to each other and the conditions. I'm more interested in culture. I was going to ask you that.

I was going to ask you what you define culture as. Culture, my best definition, is the artifact of relationships. Yeah. So if you want to understand the culture, look at the relationship. Yeah. And there's all types of clues about how a culture is healthy or unhealthy. And is it a, let me ask you this question. Is the culture a high-performing culture or is the culture what it is that produces high performance?

I would go to former. It's a high-performing culture. So for me, I break that down in that the individuals within that environment are high-performing. Which would mean to me that they need to have then, because it's about relationships, a high-performing relationship. environment they're high performing which would mean to me that they need to have then for because it's about relationships a high performing relationship yeah is that what you would rest yeah yeah I would rest on that and if you take the teams that we've been at in Formula One you

know we were at Red Bull for two years yeah that's right there's you know there's no higher performing environment in Formula One right now yeah Now you can step into that environment. And I often use the word toxicity, but I don't necessarily mean it in a really negative way, but there's a coldness about that space. Yeah. So that's where I go high performance culture or a culture that produces high performance because a high performing culture,

there are i don't know countless probably ways to create we talked about early before the mics were on bobby knight is a well-known american basketball coach and um he was known for throwing chairs at kids maybe even choking a kid here and there like Like he was, and he won a lot. Was that a high-performing culture? Maybe a human damaging culture, but was that a high-performing culture? It produced high performance, certainly.

It's not a culture I want to be part of. No, that's a good point. But for us, okay, Alex was in a different space right then. He wasn't at the level in terms of his understanding of the environment. But for me, you know, I'm now at Williams and, you know, I'm not being disrespectful when I say it's a team on a journey of its own.

It's transitioning from being P10 in the championship how many years in the last five or six, P7 in the championship this year. So made a good step and when I come there's only 10 teams there's only 10 teams yeah to be clear

so yeah only 10 teams and just to add color Williams is one of the top three overall in the history

of F1 most successful clubs drives me insane yeah heritage brand oh if I hear that word it's what we do right now you don't like. Heritage brand. Oh, if I hear that word. It's what we do right now.

You don't like that. No, I don't like that. Yeah. I celebrate that. It's really good to understand your history and be proud of that. But the positives of that have worn off 15, 20 years ago. You're P10 for a reason.

So let's look at why we're P10. There you go. And there's a new CEO. Yeah, new CEO, new team principal. And it takes time to get culture connected. But when I look at our Red Bull days,

the trust I had in terms of everybody in that environment nailing what they needed to do. So that performance space for us, our whole concern was about turning up,

putting our own practices in place, delivering. No other noise. Zero noise. Go to Williams. What did you say? Go to Williams. And this is no joke,

I'll tell the story. Me and Alex were telling this story a couple of days ago. First time at the factory, for me, I went up, he was doing a seat fit, right? So they,

obviously all the driver's seats are created for them individually. Exactly. A really high tech process. So we go up, he's getting a seat fit in the morning and he's doing sim in the afternoon. So I go up. Simulating driving. Yeah, exactly. So they want to get better at it. Yeah, like PlayStation on steroids.

Incredible pieces of kit. So it replicates as much and as close to the race environment as you can. You know, the simulator moves in line with the track and, you know, you can create any environmental conditions for the tires, et cetera. So these pieces of kit are just, yeah, off the charts. So it's running late.

It's already running late. He's already eaten into his sim time. And he's in the car getting a seat fit. And the guy running the seat fit goes, I just have to go and walk my dog. I'll be back in an hour. And me and Alex, like one of those moments where I'm pretty sure that's what he said,

but he can't have said that. Couldn't have said that. And we looked, I remember leaning down and looking under the halo. Alex was in there. He looked at me like eyebrows furled. I was like,

did he just say, and off he went. And not only was he an hour, he was an hour and 15 minutes. Oh my, he actually did it? Did it. Off he went.

And I was like, wow. And that set the tone for that season. And you were there for a part of that and you saw some of that. And, and I, you know, I'm not being derogatory about Williams,

but. The seat was a problem for the, for the other driver as well. Yeah. Little bone spurs. Yeah. Yeah. Like.

But, but that was just a bit reflective of where they were in terms of their attitudes. There was a bit of a, an acceptance of being last. I'd turn up and try attitude and and i had another conversation i had this conversation with somebody and and he'd very much said that phrase which was you know no matter how bad things get we we get to play with cars for a living and my response to that was i'm not spending 30 weeks away from my family to play with a car oh my that's not what i am here for yeah and if you're here for that then that's why

we're p10 yeah right um and that's i think the difference i mean when i can appreciate an environment where it may be a little bit cold because i can develop the meaningful relationships within that that are key for alex which is his lead engineer, his race engineer, his controls engineer. The couple of other people in the engineer structure that we know are important to us and we build those relationships. In that environment, we just have to be a bit more protective of where we put our energy. Now, we've developed some really strong relationships with Williams, but they're on a journey and alex is a huge part of that journey well let me just add this to it is that the relationship bit that's a relationship that is um that's not the right relationships because the it's not honoring what the other person at that time needs it's actually taking care that example taking care of like a home need

yeah and a home life is important, of course, and a dog's bladder is really important. We get all this, but there's a mismanagement if that's, and if that happened to be a wild time that something happened that, that, that, that, that, that, that you get it. And you, of course you make exceptions for those things, but that's not a relationship based culture that is built on the invisible handshake that we are here for a reason. And it's the invisible handshake that unless that becomes visible, meaning that I have a rash when we talk about we're family. No. No.

I have a family. We're teammates. And I can't wait to get in the trenches and da-da-da with you, like, assuming you're a good teammate. And like, so I have a rash to that. You know, so I don't want to mistake family and relationships in the same thing. There is a handshake. It's a performance-based handshake. The highest standards of excellence. I'm going to support and challenge you to be your very best.

And I hope you'll do that for me. And I got your back. You got my back. Let's go get it. And that type of relationship has electricity. It can be warm in some instances. And you said it's kind of cold. That's culture yeah and and people people shape culture and oftentimes it's an abdication meaning that we just assume somebody else is shaping culture but every actor inside of the culture has a responsibility to contribute to the center and if it feels too cold most people won't say anything if results are happening yeah so like and and if you ask me to define what i think culture is i always say it's the sum of collective behaviors or sorry some of individual behaviors some of it's the sum of individual behaviors culture is

created for me by the behavior and intentionality and delivery of each individual within that space. Now that can look at, that can look in different ways, but for me, culture is bottom up. It starts with the person who mops the floor and we build culture. That's interesting. Cause I think it goes top down, bottom up. I think, I think when you have somebody that's at the head of the organization that says, this is really important to me, and it's at the front of an agenda as opposed to the end of the agenda, culture starts to take some shape. Okay. But it's up to every person in the organization to pour into the center of that vision. And if the leader doesn't care about it,

it will become something. Every organization, every family, every team, every unit has a culture, whether it's intentional or not. But it is, let's think about coaches and athletes. Whose responsibility is it? It's everybody's, but who's gonna set the direction? Oftentimes it's a person that really cares about culture. And if they have the right level of respected voice,

now you've got a chance at it. And oftentimes the best player is not the one that ought to set culture because they don't know. So if you just leave it up to the best player, that's not necessarily a smart move either. No, absolutely not. And I've seen that in team culture, but certainly in our, you know,

our team is our structure, right? It's a weird one because we're like a little bubble within a team. Me and Alex are our own team. That's right, yeah. Yeah, we've got our own little team. And, you know, he's at Williams right now. He's been at Red Bull.

He's been at Toro Rosso. You know, we've moved together. So our culture is within ourselves and it's, you know, it's visible and invisible. You know, we're here for a reason.

Like I, I don't need to ask Alex about his journey. I know his journey. I know why he's there. And he, you know, he's godfather to my son. So he's connected to me in that way.

But he also knows I'm there because I, there's like, I say the word expect. I expect that if we're on that journey together, then there is no taking our foot off the pedal. And I'm not using a racing analogy on purpose, but I'm only in this as long as you're in this. And if I think you take your foot off the pedal, then I'm out. I would challenge you that you probably have a way to carry some water to help out if he's got.

So let me be more concrete. I think about a relationship, like what you're talking about, committed relationship. I got two jugs of water, you're talking about, a committed relationship. I got two jugs of water, one in each hand, and you have two jugs. And we're committing. We got to get these jugs over. We want to get these jugs over here. This is going to be great.

And this is our commitment to each other. And I go, oh, my God, I have a blister, dude. And you're like, all right. And we're on pace. All right, listen, I can do three for a minute. All right, thanks, brother. OK. And then if I just look over and I see you're carrying three, and I'm like oh, this is easy. At some point you're like, Hey, like, what am I doing?

Okay. But if you go, I got you. And then I go, great. And then I, as soon as I can, I grab that jug back and I go, you need a break. I think I got three, but you want to get me. And you're like, yeah, man, can you get these three? Great. So it's that pack. Yeah. But if I put both down. Yeah. Right. So we got some problems. Now you got four. Maybe you can do it for a couple of steps.

You're a very strong lad. But at some point, like we both have to carry water. And if we're not committed to it. So there's a give and take. And for me, are you saying, no, you carry two. You said you're going to carry two. No, no said you're going to no no no that's not and if you're sick i still expect you to carry two no there's always going to be fluctuations yeah okay cool for me it's the fundamental goal is still consistent which is irrespective of those fluctuations the vision is still to be the best version of ourselves that we can be. And that will always have ups and downs, peaks and troughs.

That's just athletic journey. That's just life journey and mind athletic journey. We will both have difficulties. He's been present in difficulties that I've had personally as much as I've been present for him. You know, I remember leaving Magello track one night after having some bad news from home and holding it in all day just because I knew he needed to perform. And he knew something was up

and he just asked me as we left the car park, is everything okay? And I just burst out crying. And I told him what was going on. And he was like, no, do you need to fly home? And I said, said no it's good like we're all good we can get through it and he got his first podium of his professional career in F1 that weekend yeah how do you attribute that I don't put it down to that you know he it was

a little bit of coincidence for sure well I assume it was coincidence, but if you see any of the footage afterwards and our interactions together, there was more in it than just him getting a podium. Yeah, that's cool. Yeah. And we, and like that, there's,

there's been periods through the last couple of years where, you know, he's had a little trough and we're both there to pick him up. Yeah. But for me, it's, you know, I said earlier about somebody saying they wanted to be a world champion. I believe Alex is capable of that. And Alex believes he's capable of that.

If that at some point changes in terms of that's what our focus is, then I don't think I'm on that journey. If what changes? That his fundamental focus is not, how do i become a world champion got it what are the steps that i need to take from now until i can pick up that trophy how does that conflict with the vision is to be the best version and the goal is to be the best so i hear the best versus my best and yeah i think you can have both but yeah but for me the best is the accidental on purpose designed um hopeful output to me it's my commitment is to help you be your best yeah in your micro decisions day to day to day and your actions and then i don't know i don't know

if you'll ever have the fastest i don't know i don't know you know and i guess i'm probably substituting that phrase world champion but to me that is the best like that that is from a career and technical point of view and a performance delivery perspective you know that is the box tick right it's it's calling yourself a world champion he will have a phenomenally successful career and he will get very close to being the best of what he can potentially be yeah provided we stay on the trajectory that we're on with those peaks and troughs but so what is the commitment though for for him to be world champion or for him to be his for him to strive for that for that to be the work see i think the work is to help to be my best today and to help others do that and and we're pointing towards yeah we're pointing towards something but the work is my best or today his best yeah

yep that's a good challenge and the perspective i've probably not had on that i'm trying to find the words but that is a good challenge like which one it's all yeah like which one is it and i think probably what it boils down to in the phrase that comes to mind is it is about that it's about him being the best but if you believe that that's what he's capable of then that's within his best now obviously like you said there's environmental factors there like the car and the conditions and a max verstappen and a red bull car right but if if that is within your capability or you believe that to be within your capability then it's one and the same for me but but for sure our focus and we talk about being present right we talked about in the car yeah absolutely. Absolutely. We attack every session. Yeah.

And, you know, we're on pre-season camp now. We're two weeks in and we're both walking like John Wayne. And more me. More me. In the training camp? Yeah. He's got it. Because I do it all with him. Yeah, right.

Every session he does, I do. Yeah, that's fun. So we're biking a lot. We're running a lot. We're boxing a lot. It's been heavy load. And that's what we're here for. And we need to put some muscle mass on and that just that just involves getting to a place of pain that you

know is required for that to happen physiologically and we attack every session like that because we know that this builds for our season this is creates the platform to be able to go into February get in the car in March and be ready physically and then it's about about the execution side, which is more the technical and cognitive and behavioral. But if we don't do this bit right, then we don't, we struggle with the next bit. So it's, it's a part of the process and we're present right now. But, but I think it's probably that overarching that it's like what we talked about, like what is the passion and joy and love and where is that driving you towards? And I think for me,

there's a difference between that and just saying, I just love driving and I just want to be on the grid. Okay, that's fine. Have a career, see how many years you can get out of it. Go flip to another category like Indy or go and do Super Formula or go and do Formula E.

Love it. Really happy for you. And if you're in a really good place mentally and you're, you know, you're happy with what you're doing, decisions you're making,'re making go for it but but i'm not on that journey so i had a moment where a member of a super bowl winning team and um it's a large team you know there's 63 athletes there's 25 coaches there's another 100-plus support staff and management and a large team. And locker room moment, champagne's popping, music is on, the whole thing's happening.

We just walked from Cafeti to – Yeah, so we're having that moment. Coach Carroll, this was at the Seattle Seahawks, and he pulls everybody into the middle of the locker room. And you've seen this image thousands of times and um everyone's hands are on each other's shoulders or kind of on each other and there's you know and so he says he says all right all right we now have what everyone wants and i thought And I thought, oh my God, everything was just crumbling in this nanosecond. Like that's not what I sold.

That's not what I signed up for. What I signed up and Coach Carroll and I had a business together at that time. So we're doing our work and we had a business together. We now have what everyone wants. And I thought he was going to say the world champion trophy or something like, and I was like, oh no. And he says, the knowing of what it takes to be our very best. I said, oh, thank God. Yes. That's what you're on board for. The knowing of what it takes for us to be our very best. And we did know during that season and actually a little bit before the end of the last season, which ended earlier than we would hoped in the playoffs, not the championship game.

And we knew like this is a championship caliber team. Yeah. Like this, this is a team, these talent pieces and the way it felt and the energy and the nose is pointed in the same direction and the standards and the type of yelling at each other and the type of loving of each other and the type of crying with each other was honest. It was honest work, razor's edge, da, da, da. We now have what everyone wants. And I thought all of a sudden, like it was going to evaporate.

Like, holy shit, this has always been about a trophy. Never for me is this about the trophy. The knowing of what it takes to be our very best. That's powerful. Isn't that cool? Yeah. Yeah, man. Hey, listen, I love the time we get to spend.

I'm so stoked you came in. Yeah, this has worked out really well. This is awesome, dude. Congrats on everything that you are co-creating with Alex, with your boxers, with your loved ones. Like your life, the way that you've designed it has a contour and a shape that has soul and substance. It's got an honesty to it that I think people in your life are better

for you. And I can't imagine a way to give you a higher compliment than that. And so thank you for the way you show up. I love how I feel around you. And um i'm so stoked that we got to do this officially so others can kind of feel who you are as well yeah and i think you know i've done a few of these different types of things but your ability to make people comfortable in in the space around you is the reason why we've been able to sit here and talk for however long and probably not answer the first question you ask me but i appreciate you and i appreciate you in that space um and you know i've thought about you a lot yeah yeah not in that way but certainly in terms of the conversations we've had and how powerful they've been and and just knowing that in an environment like Alex, Alex gets challenged. I get challenged too.

And knowing, you know, you're a really good sense check for somebody like me. Yeah. Which is awesome. You know, we're on the right path. Awesome.

Yeah. So thank you. Yes, sir, man. All right. So, um,

where can people follow you at like on social and like, just to kind of get a, I know you have to, I'm not a social guy, but it's cool. You've got a, I've got an not a social guy, but it's cool. You've got a, I've got an Instagram.

Yeah. So it's, Patrick H underscore coach. Patrick H underscore. There's no H in the English language. H. Yeah. Is that it? Is that it?

Yeah. Patrick H underscore coach coach yeah yeah good and that's it I'm just on Instagram

yeah good I think you're gonna get some messages here you know and some big hearts and some yeah some other stuff

yeah so alright cool so appreciate you let's do this more often yeah looking forward to it see you man

thank you alright thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us let's do this more often. Yeah. Looking forward to it. See you, man. Thank you. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of finding mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show,

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