Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - How to Lead Through Crisis—Building Trust, Courage, and Culture at Alaska Airlines | Ben Minicucci

Episode Date: June 11, 2025

What does it take to be a great leader in moments of calm and crisis? And how do you maintain strength in a heartfelt way?  Ben Minicucci is the CEO of Alaska Airlines — where he leads with a values-first approach rooted in trust, accountability, and care. With a background in engineering, military service, and operations, Ben is redefining what it means to lead a high-performance culture at scale.Ben is one of the most respected leaders in modern aviation, guiding Alaska through bold transformation — including their recent acquisition of Hawaiian Airlines — while doubling down on the values that got them here: be remarkable, be kind-hearted, deliver performance, own safety, and do the right thing.Ben leads with unwavering values, deep relational intelligence, and a sharp sensitivity to culture. As you listen to this episode, I’d invite you to reflect, how do you hold space for truth and vulnerability? What’s your relationship with accountability, especially when the stakes are high? And where in your own life might deeper care create greater outcomes?Let’s dive into this masterclass episode with Ben Minicucci. Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine!Follow on YouTube, Instagram, LinkedIn, and XSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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stay present and engaged with my thinking and writing. If you wanna slow down, if you wanna work smarter, I highly encourage you to check them out. Visit remarkable.com to learn more and grab your paper pro today. I got the call and I heard the mid cabin door blow out, which was really weird for me because I knew the door. I'm like, well, that door just doesn't blow out. It's bolted on. So it was two quick questions I asked. I said, Hey, what kind of airplane is max? It's a max. And I said, how old is it? 10 weeks. So my maintenance and engineer mind went asked. I said, hey, what kind of airplane is it? Max. It's a Max? And I said, how old is it? 10 weeks.

So my maintenance and engineer mind went in. I said, well, that door doesn't get checked for two years. I have to be sure. I got to check 65 airplanes. We grounded the fleet before the FAA grounded the worldwide fleet before everyone else. It was like, no, put safety first. What does it take to be a great leader in moments of calm and in crisis? How do you maintain strength in a heartfelt way? Welcome back. What does it take to be a great leader in moments of calm and in crisis?

How do you maintain strength in a heartfelt way? Welcome back, or welcome to the Finding Mastery podcast. I am your host, Dr. Michael Gervais, by trade and training a high-performance psychologist. And this week's guest is Ben Minacucci, the CEO of Alaska Airlines. Ben is one of the most respected leaders in modern aviation. He's guiding Alaska through bold transformation, including their recent acquisition of Hawaiian Airlines. Born to Italian immigrants and raised in Montreal, Ben's leadership roots were planted early. My father was illiterate, never went to school, couldn't read or write. Gets on a boat, goes across the entire Atlantic Ocean to Montreal,

where they raise a family. But the one thing they always said is, we work hard, do what's right, and be honest. And we want you to go to school because we didn't go to school. When you have an education, good things come. He brings that same spirit into the boardroom, leading with unwavering values, deep relational intelligence,

and a sharp sensitivity to culture. When people come into a room, one of the things they want to hear, they want to hear the leader, hey, what do you think? And I never say what I think at the beginning. I've learned that. Because once I say what I think, everyone thinks it's the best idea in the world. Instead, I say, no, no, I want to listen from you. Tell me what you guys think. There's something about

the wisdom of the group. And so for me, it's about talking less and listening more. So with that, let's jump right into this conversation been a long time coming. I just want to start with a note that I have a real appreciation for you as a man, as a human, and as a leader. And so as I've gotten to know you, the way that you work is special. And I hope that I can do it your genius service in this conversation. And I just want to start by better understanding, you know, where you come from. And I think that that has shaped so much of who you are as an extraordinary human and leader. So maybe we can just start at the top.

You know, like what was the breakfast table like? What was the dinner table like when you were growing up? Oh, my, thank you. Thank you for doing this, and you're very kind. I'm flattered, honestly. Cool. You know, my upbringing was great for me. I mean, and just to give a context, my parents emigrated from Italy in the 50s.

It was after the World War II. Italy was very poor, and there was no work. And my father had an uncle who was, they call it a medica. They say, hey, come here, there's work. And next thing you know, my father gets on a boat. And just my father was illiterate, never went to school, couldn't read or write. Gets on a boat, goes across the entire Atlantic Ocean, ends up at a port in Halifax, takes a train all the way back to Montreal where he meets his uncle, my great uncle.

And he's got work for him, and he works. And then six years later, goes back, sees my grandfather and says, I'd like to marry your daughter. They knew the family you come from a good family I respect yes you can marry my daughter and takes my mom back to Montreal where they raise a family and me and I have two brothers and a sister I'm the youngest and and we got raised in Montreal and you know my mother had fifth grade my father never went to school and you know the amount of respect. And, you know, my mother had fifth grade. My father never went to school. And, you know, the amount of respect I have, because, you know, as you get older, you understand, like, how two people navigate a culture. This is a French culture.

They come in because it was Montreal. Very little English. It's all French. And all they do is speak Italian. They can, you know, barely read or write. And they create a life for themselves, and they work hard, and all they said is it's hard work, and nobody's going to give you anything for free.

You work hard, do what's right, and be honest and work hard, and good things will come. But the one thing they always said is we want you to go to school because we didn't go to school, and when you have an education, good things come. So that was like the dinner table. We'd always wait for my father to come back home from work. Nobody ate before he came back from work. We'd eat and have dinner. It was great. But I never knew what I didn't have. We didn't have a lot, obviously. And we'd eat from the backyard, the tomatoes, the peppers. Everything was grown, we'd cure our own meats, make our own sausage, prosciutto, salamis, you know, so that's all I knew. I knew that we made everything, you know, wine, we make our own wine. My father would get wine, we'd make our, so everything we did, we did on our own, you know, it was, you know,

we rarely, they rarely bought packaged goods. It was, everything was made at home. And so that's how I grew up. I grew up with that mentality, you know, pasta, everything, you know, the only thing every once in a while, you'd see a goat come in chickens and live. And that's, that was my upbringing. Everything was, they were very frugal, you know, every dollar counted, there's nothing more important than family and taking care of each other and your, and your family. And so those values get ingrained in you, you know. How did they teach family matters? You know, it was always about taking care of each other. Yeah.

And it was always about, you know, everything you did was to make sure that, you know, you were safe, that there was food on the table. It was like the essentials. You know, like y'all work to make sure there's food on the table, roof on your head. I mean, that's how I grew up. It was the basics. It wasn't, you know, lots of toys and lots of stuff. It was like this, you know, everything is about hard work. And I remember my dad saying his aspiration,

you got to remember, like, and we all did, my brothers and sisters, but I used to do his pay slips. You know, at the end, like he used to tell me, okay, Monday I worked 12 hours, and I'd have to write it on. Tuesday I worked 11. And how old were you? I was eight, nine years old, and I would do this for him. And then the only thing he could do is sign his name, right? So he would sign his name, and then he would hand that in, right?

So I would see all those hours. He'd work six days a week, and, on Sunday he'd work around the house and, but that's, that was his life. It was work hard, make sure I can provide for my family. That, that is what, that is what the leader of the house does, right? It provides for the family. What emotion are you feeling right now? Just an immense amount of pride for what, you know, my father did. Again. Where do you feel it?

I just feel it all over, you know, just the amount of, it's honestly, it's like, I think about him driving the car. Him not, he wouldn't drive by reading signs. He'd drive by landmarks. Like, so he'd be driving and saying, I got to turn here. And as a kid, you don't realize it, right? You're a little kid and your dad gets you from point A to point B. And only later I realized, no, he can't read that. He's driving because he knows he turns right at the white building.

And then he drives down until he sees that orange brick house. And then he turns left there. But he knew every part of the city, you know, because he lived there. He learned how to drive, you know. And especially now when you think of, you know, I think of all the challenges and stress you could feel going through this stuff. I think about him and saying, wow, here's someone who raised four kids, you know, bought a house, you know, put food on the table. And he was just driven, driven, driven to succeed for providing for his family. And, and, and I think of, of, of, you know,

how he started and, um, and the opportunities he gave us, you know, I, um, you know, it was just incredible. Yeah. When your body changed and you felt all of the emotions thinking, like reminiscing about the care that your dad had for you. It's not lost on me that that is one of the main drivers for the culture that you're wanting to build. We'll get to that, which is about care and kindness and taking care of each other. So we'll get to that. But you're starting to kind of fertilize some seeds here. When you were feeling that emotion, now I want to go back into like this conversation. When you're feeling all of that

emotion, there's this taboo thing that like men are not supposed to do emotions. And in the workforce, like maybe women aren't supposed to do emotions for different reasons. Like we've both got these, both genders have this message that emotions are not okay in the workforce, which to me is an insanity. Emotions drive the whole thing. Relationships are at the center of whatever we're trying to do. So what did you just do when you felt all of those emotions? Because they were there, but you managed it. You worked with it. Were you, I don't know, were you trying to push them down or were you like, Oh, that's interesting. Oh, Mike, I'm glad you saw that. Or was it like, Oh shit. Uh, it's going to, you know, I, I'm glad you saw that. Like, I think like today I, I,

I'm so more, much more comfortable expressing my feelings more than I did 20, 30 years ago. Why is that? I think because I think the, and it's, it's one of the things I want to promote in our organization. And even with our board, I had, I had this great discussion with a group of, um, uh, board directors from across the country. I said, you know, one of the things that I want to do with my board that I appreciate is the transparency and vulnerability and when you don't have the answer and not having to feel like you're showing up and saying, well, I got to, let's see, I got to have all the answers and I got to be, you know, this confident

and never show any sign of weakness. And I think that's the worst thing for a leader because I think that you'll never get to the right place. You never get to the right solution when you say, look, these are the things that are going well. Here are things that are not going so well. And me and my team are struggling through a couple of things. And we don't have the right answer yet.

But you show this transparency, honesty, vulnerability that you see the problem. You see it. You acknowledge it. And now you have to own it. And once you own it, you can go change it. And this is one of the things I'm trying to promote in the organization. See it, own it, and change it. Because if you see it, that is, a lot of people just don't want to see it.

They don't want to see where they're not hitting expectations or they're not being the best that they can be. And if they can't see it themselves, hopefully they have someone close that says, hey, you're not hitting the mark. And then when they do see it, can you actually say, okay, you know what? It's mine now to own. And I'd be interested in what you think, because athletes are the same way, right? If you're not performing as an athlete, they usually know because it's pretty brutal. That environment, that industry is pretty brutal. But how do they own it? I think that's where I see the difference between great athletes and athletes who maybe don't live up to their potential or refuse to admit that maybe they've got work to do. But the ones that own it are the ones that end up changing outcomes and having fantastic seasons

and excel to be one of the best, you know, and under a trade. And so the see it, own it, change it for me has been a big revelation because seeing it as being vulnerable and saying, all right, I'm not hitting the mark in this area and I got to own it to go change it. Finding Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Solutions. In any high performing environment that I've been part of, from elite teams to executive boardrooms,

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And I have lots to say about the athlete bit here and I will, but I want to first go to, there's two things I want to say. So I want to say them out loud to you now about the owning it bit is actually, I think, driven by something else than owning. And I want to come back to that. But owning is the thing that they, we need to do. So I'm just saying it out loud to come back to it. I want to talk about the vulnerability piece because there's a strength in, hey, here's how it is. Here's what I see. Things that are going well and things that are not going well. And this is where we're struggling. This is where things are going really well. There's a power in that. And there's a risk in being vulnerable, right? In a traditional leadership model,

you're changing it. This is why I wanted to have this conversation with you. How do you manage when you say to somebody who can decide if you're going to have a seat, if your contract's going to get renewed, if whatever. And you're saying in an honest way, here's the things that are not going properly. And they might have a bad day, or they might be vindictive, or they might not be trustworthy, or they might want their cousin in your role. How do you manage that when it starts to get twisted in the wind, when you're doing the quote unquote right thing for change? You know, what I tell people a lot, because it is one of the hardest things to do,

because in my organization, when people, especially when they hit the higher levels of the organization and they show what they believe is weakness or some inability to do a role or a job, they might think, hey, I'm going to lose this job that pays me well, has good benefits, and this fantastic thing I have can disappear. And I say, over time, if you try and hide it, the mask is going to get lifted, and we will see the true self that's there, and you'll lose it anyway.

So what I want to see from people is not how you're trying to hide it. Cause I will see through that over time. You might come in and fool me once and I might say, okay, well they put on a good show. The second, third and fourth time outcomes never lie. Outcomes never lie is what I tell people. And your job at the end of the day is to produce outcomes. And so if over time, your track record and producing outcomes is strong, that's when you have the ability to even be vulnerable and transparent and feel safe and not feel like, well, I'm at risk. And I think that's what I tell people. I said, the more you do it, the more you'll have a track record of outcomes and you'll have more confidence in people to say, look, this is the type of person when they say, look, things aren't going well, but I see it and I own it. And I will come back with a plan that's going to change that outcome

for the change outcome for the good, whether it's for employees, whether it's for guests, whether it's for safety or operations for whatever, whatever the area, uh, to me, that's what I see. But I, when I see someone, um, trying to hide the true nature of an outcome, then I know the red flags go up. So there's a, it's a book I'll just reference right now. It's called the night in rusty armor. And you, you referenced the mask, like a Carl Young, you know, the psychologist where I, the analyst where I go to, which is like, we're all wearing these masks for approval. And over time, those masks get exposed because nobody can keep it up long enough. And you're referencing to

outcomes and the mask. And in sport, we say, what did you say? Outcomes? You can't hide outcomes? Yeah. Outcomes don't lie. Outcomes don't lie. In sport, like in this tape doesn't lie. So you see, you see effort, you see enthusiasm, you see like disciplined technique, you see it on film. You can't quite catch it live, you know, sometimes maybe, but like, so the tape doesn't lie. Okay. Or tape tells the truth. So the knight in rusty armor is this idea that we're walking, many of us, most of us are walking around with this big armor and we got to shine it up and, you know, we want it to look really good. And if you don't shine it, which takes a long time to do, it starts to rust.

And then, you know, if you're not polishing it and shining it and it's rusting, you got to oil it now too. And it's heavy, by the way. And the whole narrative of this, it's like a 50-page book, is why not go to like moccasins? Okay. So from the knight in rusty armor to something that is stripped down and that's what you're calling for. And I wonder how much of that is your appreciation for what we would say is the best. And now I'm going to go back to your earlier point, the best of the best of the best, the half percenters, they demand the truth. They might live in a warped

reality about what they're capable of and what they think they can do, but they know that the truth is what is going to allow them to make the right investments to get better. And they hold other people to that crazy standard, usually to themselves as well. Well, and I think you see that in sports. You see some of those type of individuals that that delineate themselves from everyone else right so i can see you can see i don't like what tom brady did right like where uh you know the investment he put in in time to to perform at a level so late in his career, like I've never seen an athlete do, getting into his 40s and still perform at that level. When I see that, that is a dedication and discipline

to his sport and his trade that I take to myself and say, look, as an executive leader, as a CEO, like you train and you work at your, you try and master your trade to the best of your ability every time. You should be learning, you should be getting better. Don't let anything slip away. And if there's an area that you need to go work on, throwing a ball on the run, going the other way,

that's what you should do. Go train that. And there's an equivalent in the business world, work on, throwing a ball on the run, you know, going the other way, that's what you should do. Go train that. And there's an equivalent in the business world, right? A, I'm not comfortable doing that. That's outside my level of comfort. You've got to go train it no matter where you are in your career. So that's where I see and that's where I like to push my executives is to say, like, come in and be vulnerable. Tell me where this area that you need to work on. You don't have

to hide it from me. Once I hear it from you, it's great. Tell me that because now I know you can go work on it and I'm going to help you be successful. Well, they have to trust you to do that. They have to trust themselves, one, to bring the truth forward. Because as soon as you bring truth forward that is unremarkable, right? Is that is, you know, unflattering is that now there's that vulnerability piece. And what you're saying very clearly is it's in that space between bringing it forward and your ability to respond to it, which includes the executive leader, the CEO's ability to create some air cover to work with you.

So how do you help your people trust you? And then, because ultimately you are responsible for saying, Hey, I'm sorry, but we need to move on. So one of the things I've learned as I, you know, and I'm not the leader today that I was 20 years ago. Yeah. The core is there, but you say like, I have to get better. I got to do these things better. One of the things that I knew I had to get better was listening and asking questions. And so when people come into a room, you know, one of the things they want to hear, they want to hear the leader, hey, what do you think? And I never say what I think at the beginning. I've learned that. I never, because once I say what I think, everyone thinks it's

the best idea in the world, right? Instead, I said, no, no, I want to listen from you. Tell me what you guys think. Tell me what, you know, and it's organic. It's not like you're going to twist it. No, no, it's organic. And if I hear, if Mike is not speaking up and Mike's in the room and I know things are spinning in his head, he said, Mike, what do you think? What do you think? And I try and draw out as many thoughts and the diversity of thought and opinions, especially if it's a tricky topic that I may have a view on, but I'm not really sure. I'm 100% sure. And I think for a leader always to say like, yeah, I got a thought on it, but there's something

about the wisdom of the group when all these ideas come that you can build on an even better solution to the problem that you can build on an even better solution to, you know, the problem that you're facing. And so for me, it's about listening, talking less and listening more, listening hard. And the one thing, especially in today's society with all the electronic equipment, this tendency to touch and not focus, listen hard to when people are talking, listen to what Mike is saying, listen to what Andy is saying and Shane and Kylan. Listen hard. Because if you listen hard, there's a lot that they're saying that's important.

And then ask questions. What are you listening for? I'm listening for something, because everyone at the core has something that they feel that could be, and if it's a delicate topic, something that could hurt the organization, damage trust in the organization, not be good for customers, be costly for the business. And so what I look for, especially when there's, you know, you have strong characters in a room, is to make sure, you know, those strong characters have their point of view. But the ones that don't may have some insight that can lead you to a better solution. acquiring Hawaiian Airlines or making big decisions with employees or guests, like changing loyalty programs with guests and all those type of things, which could be easy to do on the surface.

But when you peel back the layers of the onion, you got to make sure that, hey, this has a lot of dominoes that can impact. And I may not see all those dominoes from where I sit, but other people do. So you are relational as a leader, right? And you're trying to pull all of the information, the wisdom, you're harvesting wisdom from the collective, and then you're wanting to hear it all to fine tune your point or to create a net new position. I will change my opinion. Like if, if I hear a compelling, um, argument on, hey, I think we're going down the wrong path. And that's what I want my people to, I will say, look, if you think we're going back, I want you to throw that red flag. So you risk, is it, is your approach risk management? Like I want to hear the dangers, the red zones. I want to hear all of that. Or is it, I want to

hear the upsides, the above the line, below the line thinking is a way to think about it. How are you approaching those conversations? Like I want to hear both. Like I want to hear if like, for example, if someone has a strong view on where to go, I want to hear the counter and I want to hear, Hey Mike, no, I here's why I disagree with that approach. I want to hear someone across the table saying something, and then I want to hear another. And what I'm trying to do is promote this conversation and dialogue and challenge. Yeah. Because you're, you're diluting group think is what you're doing. Yeah. And then do you come, okay. So when we do work with athletes and, and, um, and executives, one of the, I think the great gifts that I and other folks that do this work,

like you might do this work with people is when I'm working with somebody, I close my eyes and I, I need time under tension to understand them. I need to know some stuff about them. And then I close my eyes and I think deeply, not listen to, but I think deeply about what I think is possible for them. And then I want to calibrate that with them. And there's two ways to do that. And so this is like creating, casting a vision, creating a vision of what could be. It's exciting. It's wonderful. And there's two ways to do that. Either I come to and I say, all right, Ben, next week, let's talk about what we think is possible. And I come to it and I say, all right, Ben, next week, let's talk about what we think is possible. And I come to it and I say, all right, Ben, here we are. You know what I think is possible? And I say this grand thing,

or I come into that meeting and I say, Ben, what do you think is possible? I've got my idea, but I want to hear what you, is that more your, the second part more your style? Yeah, it is a little bit because I've seen too often with people as I've grown on my career is the leader, now you're exceptional because you think on a grander scale, but some leaders, their thinking isn't as broad. So if they come in and say, hey, I thought about it, here's what I'm thinking for you, right? And it could be way smaller than what you're thinking. That's exactly right. So, okay. So now you're onto the second bit, which is the calibration. So either way I think can work, but the art of this extraordinary process of listening deeply or

thinking about a vision together is the calibration. Is that you'll see there, if you're really good, you'll see the pupils constrict or dilate. You'll see the smile, micro expressions, you'll see, and sometimes you'll see overwhelm it like oh that's bigger than anyone's ever said or you'll see or you'll hear that what come on man really that's it you know so you got to calibrate with them so we're a little adjacent to to your wisdom harvesting that that you're doing but in your role like you you come in as as an equal and my what i worry about in something is like, I just worry about what was my voice with someone to say, drowning out, drowning it out. Yeah. Because, because I've seen in, in, you know, the leader of the room say, Hey, I've got a great idea

about how to do this. And, uh, and then everyone says, you know what, if you haven't created the environment where someone says, you know, Ben, that doesn't sound like such a great idea. A lot of people, you know, a lot of people, if you haven't fostered that environment, well, just fall in line. That's a great idea. And that's a great idea. And what I'm looking for is one, making sure people are coming up with the ideas. And then, and then, you know, you know, putting some gasoline and lighting out for you. Okay,. Okay, give us more. Give us the best that this thing can give us, you know? Oh, this is cool. Give us the best.

So I'm thinking about like a new CEO or a new executive leader or a new leader anywhere that's building a team. First 90 days type of thing, thought, is that you would walk into a room and you'd say, here's an idea. Let's give the best to this. Is that how you're framing it? It's give us the best on this. Yeah. And, and what I'm trying to get out of people is, and you know, it's funny, you know, as you're talking, I think about, um, some, some of the folks that I really have to get it drawn out and to really make them feel comfortable. They're probably my smartest leaders, the smartest people, they're actually brilliant, right? Academics, you know, in the school, like just top of their class.

But they're afraid to be wrong. They're afraid not to have the exact right answer. That's right. FOPO. How about it? FOPO, right? And say, well, no, I've always been the smartest in the class. I've got to have the right answer from the boss.

My identity, what they're thinking of me. And for me, when I see that, I'm like, okay, I've got to get that away from you. I've got to make you feel comfortable without being the smartest person in the room. I've got to make you feel comfortable that maybe you're not right all the time and that maybe the idea that you had can be built upon to be even bigger than what you thought and better than what you thought. And I think that's the thing for me when I see in a room, you know, like I kind of look at the person and say, I need to draw more out of you. And then I need to build on it because I can see that you're, maybe you're a little bit, like you said, you see the body

language, you're a little tense. Oh my God, does Ben think I'm wrong? Does Ben think, you know, I don't have the you know the best solution to this thing okay so you don't you don't diminish your shine so that other people can you are pulling the best of people forward and then you're looking at each individual to create a micro relationship to help them kind of open the aperture to bring it forward. And some people, so there is, there is this lens of let's call it FOPO, fear of people's opinions, where it's like, I don't want to be wrong. I don't want to look a certain way. I don't want to be rejected. And there's also people are introverted thinkers and introverted thinkers in a kind of a room of

12 other smart people. They're processing the whole time. They're just, and then they need to go away and come back. But sometimes we don't have that time. So if you could speak to a leader right now that's trying to establish this harvesting wisdom, collective insight to bring the best forward for the thing we're trying to solve, what would you suggest to them as a best practice? Like super concrete.

Don't overthink what you're going to say. And you have an instinctual reaction to a statement or something, just say it. Have the confidence to say it and why you think there could be issues with it. And I think that's what I'm looking for, is I'm looking for that dialogue, that constructive challenge with people that brings the best. And I think when you have that,

like when I'm in a room and I don't hear anybody talk and it's quiet, I think that's where I worry. I worry that, okay, this group is not comfortable saying what they have to say from a, you know, they're thinking about it so often. I got to be careful what I say, how I say it, who I say it to. And I think for when I look at my organization, that is a cancer for me. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentus. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday, what you put

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and use the code findingmastery20 at checkout. Again, that's felixgray. You spell it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com and use the code FindingMastery20 at FelixGray.com for 20% off. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And how did mom and dad, let's go back to breakfast table, dinner table. How did they, how were those conversations? Are you responding to what you didn't have or are you reenacting what you did have? You know, you make me think back and dinner conversation stuff, you know, and maybe it's how Italians are and stuff, but Italians are very like, I'm going to say what I think. And I'm going to tell you, and, and sometimes, you know, the, the truth hurts, you know, like, but it was very honest. It was very visceral, you know,

I think you're absolutely wrong and out to lunch, you know? And like, uh, uh, so those kinds of, I was used to really hearing honest, visceral discussions about a topic and very back and forth and, and, and, you know, no holds barred. Right. And, and so I was very used to, and so I'm very comfortable. I grew up being very comfortable in people going back and forth and challenging each other and it getting preheated because the times get heated when they talk, you know at least my family did. And so I'm used to heated this. I'm, I'm used to heated, I'm very comfortable. I'm very comfortable with that. So, and it's funny when I came to Pacific Northwest, Pacific Northwest is more, you know, control, contained, you know, emotions. And so I like bringing more of that out to say like, hey, I want some of that debate. I want some of that challenge and tell us what

you think and don't be all in your head, you know, so I grew up with that feeling very comfortable. And in a meeting when things get heated, you know, things do get heated. I'm like, oh my God, it doesn't faze me at all. I'm like, I feel like, great, now we're talking. Good, good. Let's talk. Let's cut. Let's talk.

You know, I feel good when that happens. Because you had time under tension with an animated, spirited conversation, people saying whatever, and you don't get kicked out of the family for that. Just like, you know, that's not why you get kicked out of maybe a team discussion of bringing it forward. Results are a different thing. Yeah. Right. And what I try and do when I see someone bring a very controversial subject up, and they are in a big group going against the grain. And even for me, it's like, whoa, okay, that was really good. And then I actually congratulate a person. Hey, that took a lot of courage.

Publicly. Publicly. I said, that took a lot of courage. Publicly. Publicly. I said, that took a lot of courage. That's what I'm looking for. That's leadership. Yeah. You know, because I said, look, it's challenging the status quo. And there was one, I'm remembering an incident one of my leaders did that upset a bunch of

people. But at the core, he was right. At the core, he was right. And that's what I said. At the core, he's right. Because when we what I said at the core, he's right. Because when we're having this other discussion, there was like a little feeling, I said, Oh, is this the right thing? And everyone was like, you know, everyone else, I was pulling a pin. Oh, no, it's right. And I said, you know, that feels like this. And I'm like, and then there was silence

along the room. I'm like, excellent. I said, because I think there could be something there. And I congratulated him, because it took courage for him to say that, that, you know, cause it would impact everybody in that room. Like he was saying impacts everyone, their benefits and stuff. And, and I thought it was, I thought it was great that we need more of that. And, uh, and for me to give cover, uh, to that, to that is very important. And to spot it and call it publicly. Call it public. See it, own it, change it. So I learned this from one of the U.S. Olympic sports psychologists, a good friend of mine. And he's got three words that he says capture the best coaching. Now, it's not ever going to be this simple.

But when an athlete does something that you're watching and observing, it's that. And then the athlete says this, and you say, yes, that. So that, yes, that. So you catch it. That right there. That. And then they like this. So that, yes, that, which is exactly what you're referencing as well.

Like, nice job. I see that. I feel that. Thank you for having the courage to bring that forward. You, nice job. I see that. I feel that. Thank you for having the courage to bring that forward. You're rewarding it right on the spot, which is, it's such an agitating experience when the room is like, I don't know, two thirds the way to closure on an idea, right? Or we're just kind of leaving the conversation to the next agenda item and everyone's feeling okay about it. And then somebody says, well, hold on.

I haven't brought this forward yet. That's exactly it. And you're right. And in a little bit, it's funny because I think when I see discussions not going exactly as I look, it's going that way. And part of me is unsatisfied, to be honest. They're saying, hey, you know what? Maybe is this still the right thing? And again, I'm pulling it. It's

okay, it looks like everyone's comfortable. So it could just be me. So that when a person like that brings throws that little bit of a grenade in there and, and, and, and pivots the conversation a little bit. I think that's fantastic. And it's especially in the in the space, we are now integrating two airlines airlines trying to manage two dual brands trying to do all these things um you know bringing two employee groups what i don't want is this i think this is good enough and going in there versus no no this needs to be the best you know and i think you see it with with teams a lot right right? Yes, 100%. I think you're right on it. I think, so I'm, your ability to create a culture rests on a desire to get to the honest truth

to make it as good as it possibly can be. You do it in a relationship-based way and your relationships, just like your family's relationships, rested on a set of core values. Can you pull those values forward and clearly articulate what those values are to you? Yeah. The one, and it's even an Alaska value, like I just feel at the core all the time,

there's a whole bunch of things of how you're wired. But for me, it's I know when it's right and I know when it's wrong. And I've been in my whole career doing this for being in the military and now. I'm talking a long time, almost four decades. But throughout military business, for me, there was always something at the core that either felt right or wrong. Do the right thing is one of the core values at Alaska. Yeah. And do the right thing is based on a whole bunch of different values, right?

It's based on, you know, you know, honesty and integrity and all those things. They all kind of form up to do the right thing. So for me, it's like if every time we made a decision at a company about a big thing, and all those decisions weighed against all your internal values, and then it ends up as saying, is this the right thing to do? And then to me, that's what it was. Is this the right thing? That's cool. Because, you know, you're hitting on two things. One is action. You have a bias to outcome and action, right? Like that's a really important bias in a performative world, a world where results matter.

So, and you're using do the right thing as an emblem for a feeling that you have that rests on a set of core values, right? Call it honesty, whatever. for a feeling that you have that rests on a set of core values. Right. Right? Call it honesty, whatever. And those core values, the do the right thing piece can get confusing for some when I say, look, sorry, Ben, but I just don't think we're doing the right thing. Yeah. And you say, wait, hold on, Mike.

I think we're totally doing the right thing. So that... And I was cautious about saying it without putting some context around it. Okay, keep going. Yeah. No, no, because everyone can have their version of do the right thing. Yeah. But I do think there's something universal about, and for me, and for my do the right thing, it's, I always think about people.

Like, what's the impact to people? Right? Again, you're relational. Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, what's the impact to the business? What's the impact of the bottom line? What's the impact of performance? What's the impact to all these things? And I think for me, it's, it's kind of like a mosaic, all these things for me, this mosaic of everything that's important to me. So I have this mosaic that, okay, the, you know, and, and if it's, uh, whether it's family, whether it's, it's, it's, it's business or personal. So I have this mosaic that, okay, the, you know, and, and if it's, uh, whether it's family, whether it's, it's, it's, it's business or personal. So if it's, if it's, if it's business, I have all these things that are important for me for the business that, that, that, that people

depend on me and our company to deliver. And this mosaic for me ends up being this do the right thing. So, and it could be a thing of greens or reds, and it's going to be majority all green, right? For me to say, okay, this is the right thing. It may not be perfect here, but if there's too much spattering of red in there, if there's too much red for me, it's like, okay, you know what? I got to go. And is that a, you said it feels a certain way. So that's, it's an embodied, is the, is what speaks to you like a hot flash if it's not the right thing? Or is what speaks to you like the aperture opens up and there's a breath of fresh air? I'm asking something kind of flowery, but it's actually quite technical. No, I think when it's right,

like when the idea of Hawaiian Airlines came to me, for example. Right. Which is just for context, the recent acquisition, was it an acquisition? It was an acquisition, yeah. A recent acquisition that you're in the middle of a culture. Transformation and a business transformation. A whole thing. A whole thing. Like you're right in the middle of change.

We were in the midst of, we were transforming Alaska into a global airline. Yeah. And it's pretty cool. And our employees are amazingly inspired by the vision and but when the idea came to me i knew i said oh my gosh this is if we can do this and pull it off in my core of course we have to do all the due diligence the financial analysis the regulatory analysis you know the brand analysis the culture analysis the labor analysis, the regulatory analysis, you know, the brand analysis, the culture analysis, the labor analysis, all that analysis had to be done. But at my very core, from the day I thought of it, the day I brought it up to the board, I knew that if we did this, it would be transformational

for us. And so all the analysis that happened six months later only validated that this was really the right thing to do. and and but there's there's this feeling that says yes yes yes yes yes yes versus i'm gonna do this thing and it's like i don't have that yes yes yes yes this is the right thing how do you tune yourself to be able to hear or feel that yes, yes, yes, yes, which is basically your intuition, your self-talk, something so that you can take action in an aligned way. So I'm an engineer. So here's, I think I'm an engineer, I'm analytical. And this is where I think over time, you know, you evolve as a leader and you evolve before everything needed to, to follow, you know, engineers are very data-driven formulas, metrics. And so before it

was like, you know, F equals MA, force equals mass times acceleration. And, and, you know, so many neurons are based on, so it was all like formula. It was like, this has to equal this or this, or it doesn't work. Right. And so what's good now is that now if I have an instinct on, on something, I then use my analytical and my, my, my data background to say, okay, this doesn't make sense. Does this thing make sense? Or is I'm just getting excited about an idea that, that I'm enamored with. And so I think it's using both sides. Now I'm using the, a little more feeling and trusting gut instinct with analysis and gut to validate that it's going the right way. And then do you have a set of practices that are important for you to be able to be more tuned, to hear that voice? Meditation is probably the only thing

that I've really changed in the last few years. I started meditating more in a quiet space. I love my times in the morning, you know, when I wake up and just being in silence, you know, with a little bit of light through the windows and just sitting there and letting thoughts come to me about all sorts of things and then thinking about something and letting it, you know, when I thought about it, just thinking about all the things that could happen or could not happen with that. And for me, it's just, I've learned to embrace it and not fight it. You know, all these

different thoughts that come in and then just one triggers another triggers another. And it's funny because if you do it every day, these things just are there in the back and one day, one week, one month, they all build on themselves to give you a clearer picture of what to do. And that's what I've learned over time. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day. And Cozy Earth has become a new part of that. Their bedding, it's incredibly soft, like next level soft. And what surprised me the most is how much it actually helps regulate temperature. I tend to run warm at night and these sheets have

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It's about choosing better. And when your day demands clarity and energy and presence, the way you prepare for it matters. If you're looking for high quality personal care products that elevate your routine without complicating it, I'd love for you to check them out. Head to calderalab.com slash finding mastery and use the code finding mastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash finding mastery. Yeah. So just to decode that, it doesn't sound like you're doing in the morning when sitting with the light, you know, this wonderful picture I'm imagining, but I know better being in the Pacific Northwest myself. Yeah. It the light is sunshine and it's not like the sun's coming up and it's more like this, you know,

there's a great light coming in. There's something coming in, but, but you're not doing a critical analysis for that X number of minutes. You are letting, you are observing without judgment. You're watching the stitching between thoughts and just allowing space to be an active observer of the thoughts. It's exactly that. Yeah. And it's something like I never, you know, if you would have told me 30 years ago, my 30 year old self would be, you know, like it's, you know, it's just, it's got to work, right. It's, uh, and, but I, I, I think, I think I'm a better leader today because I still have that analytical mind. And I love, like I said, outcomes and numbers are so important for the business. No matter who you are, whether you're an athlete or whether you're a business, at the end of the day, numbers matter.

And so I believe in numbers, but I also believe in how you get there. And I think how you get there can be the difference of sustainable success and fleeting success. Well, you're very warm. And in that warmth, there is never a thought for me that, oh, he's really wonderfully kind, but he kind of struggles with systems thinking, or he struggles with like critical analysis. So literally you are the yin and yang. You have all of the warmth. This is why I wanted to sit with you in this format. You have all of the warmth, the genuine care, because you are relational in how you go about your life. And you have the ability to do systems thinking, logical analysis, to be able to

say, where does this break? I felt something. Where does this break? And oh, by the way, we're doing it together. And so it's not just me giving directive in authoritative way. It's us moving forward to bring our very best forward. That's what we all need. As'm as sure as I am here, if there is a working definition for me about modern leadership, you are embodying it. Thank you, Mike. And I give you that. I know it's a high compliment,

but I've seen it and I've seen it in action. And I've seen where you've made investments in the leadership trainings that you've included us in to help show your people how to invest in themselves so that they can be more fully themselves. Not many CEOs are investing in a true high performance wellbeing program across the organization to do it. And so like one, I've seen you put your money where your mouth is. I've, it's a feeling I have around you and I know you're working relational and values based.

And the thing that I want to highlight is that they're not just words on walls. You didn't do the intellectual exercise to redesign the values. And as I've come to learn, you, you did go back to pen and paper on the merger to make sure that the values of Alaska are, are trued up for this acquisition, for this blending of cultures. And did they change the values that, that you're working towards? We're pretty much have aligned on, on, on the values, but they're not changed very much. And what we did, we were fortunate with Hawaiian because what a wonderful culture uh they have and if you've ever been to hawaii which i'm sure you

have you realize how special and unique hawaii is they they have a connection there's a strong family connection which i love you know they take care of each other you are a great custodian oh for this yeah well And so I love that when I see them and I see them with taking care of, you know, parents and grandparents and how the family unit is so strong. How they are tied to the land, how they take care of the land and how they're mindful of everything they do to keep Hawaii special. You know, the land and the oceans. Sounds like Montreal for you. Yeah, yeah. And so when bringing our cultures together,

our culture is based on, you know, being kind, kindhearted, and doing the right thing, and theirs is all about malama. What's the word? Malama, which is care. And so it was easy to bring those together to say, this combination is one plus one is going to equal 100. You know, it's not, it's, this is why I think our employees feel so good about the future because they see this combination as being transformative. Because it's going to be more than just bringing two companies together.

It's going to create the next generation of company for us. And so it's always fun to see this, you know, and we're building it right now. It's happening right in front of our eyes. And I tell people, I said, you know, you're in it right now. It's a lot of work. And by someone, you're going to look back five years or 10 years, you've created a new platform for our company that is going to be with us for decades to come. Okay. Stress and change can be synonymous, meaning that part of my working definition of stress is that it is change occurring and there's stress on a system, stress on a person, whatever. If you frame stress like, oh, this is something, this is going to be something, you know, the Chinese farmer Cohen or parable is really, I think, wonderful, meaning that we don't know how it's going to go.

I'll reference the parable later because it's long. But the idea is like, we don't know how things are going to go. So let's see. Let's see how it goes. So the framing of change is materially important to the experience of the change. And you're framing the change as like, this could be, if we do this right, there's something really special that is going to change the way that so many people experience travel. And our families here, as part of the employee base, we're going to have something special to look back on and to experience while we're in it.

Does that sound close to being right? It's exactly how I feel. And I think it's, I think how people are starting to feel that this thing is different. It's different. And I've been here 21 years. It's amazing to talk to people who've been here 30, 40, 50 years. And to say, hey, Ben, you know, when I joined the company,

you know, the farthest we flew was San Francisco. Which is about an hour and 45 minutes. An hour and 45 minutes. Today we fly all over the country and of course, Mexico, Belize, Costa Rica, all that stuff. But now we're actually going global. We're flying to Tokyo in May and Seoul in the fall and Europe next year. And when I talked to our employees, they're like, wow, I never thought in my career that the company would end up being that. And then I realized that I saw some publication that, you know, because we're, our country

is, we have a lot of big airline companies, but we are the 13th largest airline now in the world. So this is important because it's like, what is this about? This is like, um, a coming to age feeling like we're entering where the big boys go, you know, like, but, but we're this, um, not small, mighty little, whatever, but we're the Pacific Northwest hub. And now we're entering into this new phase. So there's an, that, is that what you're, it's like, it's, you, you nailed it. And, and one of the things I tell people is I don't want to lose, you know, we talked about culture and values is that we, as we come this big, a bigger and a global airline, I don't want

to lose what's been special about our company, about the small company feel, about connection, about the culture. My whole thing is about this culture of empowerment with the frontline employees and this culture of empowerment with leadership. ED HARRISON Empowering them for what? DAVID ROCKEFELLER To be able, like in our world of airlines, you can imagine it's so regulatory. There's a whole bunch of regulatory rules. And then there's all these policies we put in place in a company.

If you have to print them out, there's like books this big. And I say, look, you know what? Every employee at our airline is empowered to do the right thing, be kindhearted, deliver performance, be remarkable, and own safety. I happen to know your values because of our relationship, but you just eloquently stitched together that you hold the power to do these five values a la virtues and to do them at the highest level. Be remarkable is a new one that you just brought up, owning the safety. So those are two new ones that you just added. But you're saying that you

hold the power to do all five of those. Okay. So I've got a bias here. I just want to run it by you and see if we're aligned or different. There's no right or wrong on this, but sometimes when the monarchy says we're empowering you. Okay. It's like they are giving power to another set of people, which I have a rash thinking about that. I don't hear you saying that, but I just want to align with it, that you're already seeing people that they inherently hold power. And you're saying, please flex it in this way to be remarkable, to make sure we're taking care of safety, we're getting results, we're driving results, we're doing the right thing, and we're doing it in a kind-hearted way. It's what I tell people.

I want to make sure you exercise your clout as a team member at our company, that you have all the authority to do this. And whether you need to pause the operation because you're not sure we're going too fast hey there I don't feel good pause it nobody's going to question you like hey you paused the operation you stopped it because you wanted to check on something because you thought there was a safety issue great thank and I don't care who you are you could be a pilot a flight attendant a cleaner a fueler a mechanic I don't care. Just stop it and say, hey, we're going a little too fast. We just got dot I's and cross D's before. Anybody in our

company is allowed to do that. Anybody. You did that, I think, when there was a safety issue. And this was maybe a year ago. I couldn't believe you did it. It was totally the right thing. I was getting on one of your airlines, or I was getting on one of your airlines, uh, or I was getting on one of your flights and you grounded, you grounded them all. I grounded them all. And for me that, that decision, by the way, it went so far for me. I knew that you're of that character, but it went so far. I'm like, he's not, he's not risking my life to make a buck. No. And, and, and it's maybe explain that for folks. Well, it's, and it goes back to our values, right? Own safety is our number one value. Own safety. And, um, so when I got the call on the door, again, this is where it helps being an engineer. And I grew up in the maintenance world, right? I got the call and I heard the mid cabin door blew out,

which was really weird for me because I knew the door. I'm like, well, that door just doesn't blow out. It's bolted on. Did you think it was a user error or did you? Then I asked some questions. So it was two quick questions I asked. I said, hey, what kind of airplane is it? Max. And we just started getting Max. So 18 months we had Max. It's a Max?

And I said, how old is it? 10 weeks. So my maintenance and engineer mind went in. I said, well, that door doesn't get checked for two years from delivery. Right. So that thing is 10 weeks old. It was an issue out of the factory., it was an issue out of the factory. If it's an issue out of the factory,

and I have 65 of those flying, I said, I don't know what's going on. And so I'm driving, and I call the chair of my board, and I'm saying, I may have to ground the fleet. If I don't get an answer from Boeing engineers in the next hour,

I'm grounding the MAX fleet. And so I see the engineers. I go through. It's designed like I thought, because I'm grounding the MAX fleet. And so I see the engineers. I go through. It's designed like I thought because I'm being my maintenance background. And once I saw the pictures of the airplane that I landed and the structure, no damage to the structure, I'm like, all right, those bolts weren't in. I have to be sure. I've got to check 65 airplanes.

We had 65 of them. And I'm grounding the whole fleet to check them now for me it's simple i'm a maintenance guy take the sidewall off take the installation off check check check check we're good unfortunately once we started taking everything out we found a lot of non-compliance and we grounded the fleet before the faa grounded the worldwide fleet before everyone else and uh and my cfo didn't say ben you know how much this is going to cost us our chair of our board didn't say, Ben, are you sure? That's a ton of, it was like, no, but put safety first.

Because that's cool. Because you also, one of your core values is about performance. Yeah. And so those two can be at odds with each other and the greater, the first principle of safety, first principles, right? So you're working from the first principle of safety. Yeah. Yeah.

And then do the right thing. Those two obviously align. And to do the right thing. That was part of what I was saying. Like the do the right thing those two obviously align and to do the right thing that was part of what i was saying like to do the right thing for me yeah and my whole set and everything building up with us that do the right thing ground the fleet i i i cannot be 100 sure that all those other what if your chairman would have said i hear you i think you're overreacting you know uh why don't we release half the half the fleet check the other half we'll spot you know we'll spot it and see if there's a sampling here that we can figure out. What if that would have, it's hypothetical, how would you have managed that when you've got this strong thought?

You know, one of the advantages, again, I have is my technical background. Yeah, there you go. And I think if someone did not have a technical background, you could take them down that path. For me, it's the world I grew up in. So there's a competency there that you rest on. Yeah. For me, it was like, no, you don't understand. This is, I need to have 100% confidence.

The only way I get 100% confidence out of a new airplane coming out of the factory that has this discrepancy is for me to ground the fleet and take a whole look at them. In my mind, I'd already calculated all the permutations, how long it would take us to inspect the fleet and all that. I knew the scope of work. work um and so you know it and um you know what i didn't count on was the reverberation across the entire industry of all the stuff we would find right right uh but if everything was per you know you know the last 20 30 years it would have been a quick ground inspect good back in service well done uh and uh but for me it was like no no, no, I'm not sure down. Uh, and the

last thing I thought about was money. But the last thing, you know, and I, oftentimes I listen to what people say, listen hard, uh, listen to what people say. And I'm also listening for what they're not saying. And what you didn't say in your answer just now was, well, I'm a CEO. He's got to listen to me. You know, like you said, no, look, listen, I'm the CEO. He's got to listen to me. You know, like you said, no, look, listen, I'm coming from competence. I know some, I know some things we're partners in this. And, um, so we, you know, it was easy. We were aligned, but we're partners in the conversation. You didn't say it's my call. Yeah. Stand down. Yeah. Like you don't come that way. No, it's it. And it's not the relationship we have. That's right. Yeah. Well, don't come that way. No, it's it. And it's not the relationship we

have. That's right. Yeah. Well, I can't imagine you ever know. And with our board, it's, um, there you go. It's, uh, and our chair is wonderful and it's not the, and she actually respects my technical background. So she pretty much said, you know, you, it's your call. She just actually told me it's your call. Cause she knew, uh,'s your call because she knew this was my area of expertise and that I would do the right thing for everyone that depends on our company, you know, and it's our employees, our guests, their safety first. And then everything else was secondary. So turning third base here, you've got a big motor. You do a lot.

You're on your bike. You're doing all the high-performance, well-being, self-care stuff that I would hope somebody who really wants to be their very best would do. When I say you're on your bike, you're racing 15 races a year, right? So you're on your bike. Your fitness is important. And I wanted to understand where the motor came from. Is your motor coming from like a dark history? And I can't see it and feel it, but there's a theory about there's three factors for high internal drive. Competence, you have it. Relationships, you have it. And autonomy,

you have it. Not only do you have it, you value that so much that you're sharing it with all of your team members. You're relational in your approach. You value the autonomy. Anyone here has the power to speak up and say it. And you're encouraging competency across the board for skilling up. Listen, this is such a breath of fresh air. I could go on and on and on. I want to honor your time and say, Ben, again, for many reasons, thank you for your time. Thank you for this conversation. You're exactly the leader that I would hope I would have the chance to work with. So thank you. I'm flattered being here with you. And this was such a fun discussion. And you took me down paths that, you know, I hadn't thought of.

Thank you for a great talk. Awesome. Okay, that is another great conversation. Emma, I think we have one coming from the vaults next week. Is that right? You are right. Some of these conversations are too good to only release once. So as part of the

From the Vaults episodes, we're revisiting a brilliant conversation you had with George Mumford. Okay, this is a great conversation. It's just so good. There's so many gems. So for those who may not know him, George is a friend of mine and a legend in the world of elite sport. Not just for who he's worked with, though the list is incredible. Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, Phil Jackson, the list goes on. But because of how he helps high performers unlock their greatness, we are kindred spirits in the way that we go at this to help others be still, to be real, and to be fully present. And let's face it, in today's high-pressured, high-distraction world, this conversation feels like a breath of fresh air. It's one of those conversations I think you'll want to hear again or for the first time.

Join us right here with my dear friend, George Mumford, on Finding Mastery. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no-cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button

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