Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - How To Live Life On Your Own Terms | AMA Vol. 24

Episode Date: October 28, 2024

Wondering how to create time for your life priorities when it’s not part of your employer’s culture? Then this is the AMA for you.Back once again is my co-host O’Neil Cespedes, and in today’s conversation, we get into topics like:How to design your own life based on *your* priorities Bridging the gap between who we were in our younger years and who we’re becoming.The hidden dangers in giving – and asking for – advice.How to fully experience the range of your emotions, from joy to sadness, without muting them.The difference between “getting good” and “feeling good” And so much more…And there’s a lot of fun stuff along the way – O’Neil uncovers a bit about my past, and I get a window on his obsession with anime.Thank you once again for challenging us with great questions -- keep them coming in!With Fire,MG, OC, and the FM Team_________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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stay present and engaged with my thinking and writing. If you wanna slow down, if you wanna work smarter, I highly encourage you to check them out. Visit remarkable.com to learn more and grab your paper pro today. Welcome back or welcome to another Ask Me Anything on Finding Mastery. I am your host, Dr. Michael Gervais, by trade and training a high-performance psychologist. And the purpose behind these conversations is to hear from you, to explore the questions, to explore the challenges that you've been wrestling with on your path to becoming. So joining me as always is my co-host, O'Neill Cespedes, and we get into some really fun, insightful topics today, like how to design your own life based on your priorities, bridging the

gap between who we were in our younger years and who we're becoming now, the hidden dangers of giving and asking for advice, how to fully experience the range of your emotions from joy to sadness without muting them, the difference between getting good and feeling good. And of course, so much more. And we have so much fun along the way. I love doing these with O'Neill. It is so much fun. During the conversation, he uncovers a bit about my past,

which was cool to explore. And then I also learned about his love for anime. So stay tuned for what that means for him. We love these AMAs because they allow us to go deep into the topics that matter most to you. Again, thank you for great questions. Keep them coming. And now with that, let's dive right into volume 24 of Finding Mastery's Ask Me Anything. Dr. Mike, what's up? It's great to be here.

Great to be here with you. So, what's happening in the fight game? MMA, UFC, what's happening right now? I mean, Alex, whatever is happening. He's a beast. There's a buzz right now. Yeah, I would say him, you know. He has this, well, first he beat Israel Adesanya, right?

But Daisy came back and beat him. So for a little while, Alex held a middleweight belt. Then he went up to light heavyweight. Now he's a light heavyweight champion. He's just running through the division. So I would say he's the biggest thing right now. He is. And that's a big deal to change weight classes. That's a tricky thing to do to operate in literally a different body.

Let's talk about that for just a hot second. Are you trying to go up or down in weight? Man, I wanna go down. You wanna go down? I wanna be lighter. I wanna be about eight pounds lighter. You wanna lean down? 100%.

It's lean. 100%. So you wanna reconstitute your body. I want to reconstitute my figure. Do you? Yes. So is this for? I'm so glad you asked me this.

Seriously? Yeah. Is it because you're too bulky and too handsome? I don't even know why you said bulky. Why I gotta say, I take offense to bulky. No, you've got the muscular fit look. I appreciate that. Is it functional?

It is. Is it cosmetic? What are we doing here? If I'm being honest. Yeah. Because I think that we built a relationship where I can be honest with you. Yeah. It's, some of it is cosmetic.

Some of it is cosmetic. Yeah. Are you still doing bicep curls? No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I'm not like that. But I mean, I look at myself, I'm like, man, I could be a little leaner. I could be a little more svelte. I think the same thing. Yeah. I'm like, man, I could be a little leaner. I could be a little more svelte. I think the same thing.

I'm paying attention mostly to mobility. Yeah. And I know you've got a partner that's like, when I watch what she's doing, Kaisa is like, like it's ridiculous. Yeah. Mobility nut job. Mobility nut job.

But the scary thing about her is she's, okay, here's the thing. And maybe I'm hating on her a little bit. I'm gonna admit, I'm a hater. I'm a well-known hater. She's your partner. Yeah, she's my partner, but you know, yeah. But I hate her sometimes.

You're not gonna hold her up here. I'm not gonna hold you up. I'm gonna just tell the truth. I look at her and I'm like, yeah, so most of this is genetic. Not only are you freakishly mobile. Was she a gymnast? No, but she might as well have been.

Yeah, looks like that gymnastic strength. Yeah, freakish strength. Like she can squat 300? No, but she might as well have been. Looks like that gymnastic strength. Yeah, freakish strength. Like she can squat 300 and something pounds up and down. I'm not lying. I've seen her put 315 on her back and rep it like it's nothing. And then rag the weight and be like, you know, I never squat. I'm like, man, shut up. Shut up. It's not funny.

It ain't funny because I'm looking at my legs and a friend of mine told me I have smoker legs. I don't know what that means. It's like, what's the term? Like bigger, like a jailhouse body. Like big upper body and then skinny legs. Yeah, yeah.

Which it hurts my feelings, man. Sorry, I did not say that. No, I didn't say you say, I mean, you just cleared it up for me. Yeah, just cleared it up. But she's like, so she's super mobile. She's super strong, super fast. Yeah, just cleared it up. But she's like, so she's super mobile. She's super strong. She's super fast.

And I think it's unfair. It's, it's a little weird. We're talking about her and she's here. I know. That's kind of fun. I know, but she don't. But yeah. Yeah.

So yeah, I want to be more spelled. I want to be more, yeah. Yeah. And so what do you do for, like, what's the program look like? Is it enhanced cardio? Is it enhanced dense nutrition, density of nutrition? Definitely nutrition.

And I just got a new cardio program. You know, I'm incorporating a lot of sprint drills, 400s, 300s. Once out of the week, I'll run a couple miles. But it's more like, you know, speed work. And jujitsu, a lot of rolling which is like steady state cardio pretty much right and is that what zone if we're technical are you in when you're rolling most of the time is it oh we got tricky i got right there hold on let's talk about that what do you mean like so zone five is like heart rate is pounding like i'm not sure i

can keep going i definitely can't talk and do what i'm doing like so zone five is like heart rate is pounding. Like, I'm not sure I can keep going. I definitely can't talk and do what I'm doing. Like it's on, like, you know, max heart rate type stuff. Zone one is like, we're walking and talking and you can barely notice that there's a heart rate up. Zone three. Zone three. Zone three.

So in the middle. Yeah. Like you could talk, but it's like, it's kind of agitating. Precisely. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So most of that zone three work.

Yeah. We did like, it's funny you're asking me this. So most of that zone three work. Yeah. We did like, it's funny you're asking me this. A couple of days ago we did like five, seven minute rounds. We took like a minute rest in between just to build up that constant state so we could operate at a high level, but not be maxed out. And it was brutal. And are you doing this for, is your fitness for um is it for performance or is it for

lifestyle performance it's for so you're still competing yeah i mean i don't i'm no i mean i don't compete but this is the weird thing i don't compete but i love to compete with the competitors i don't mean competing like for a medal but competing with yourself and competing with people yes like in that way yes right yeah 100 yeah that that ship sailed for me a long time ago i don't think it has well i showed up to the surf ranch the kelly slater surf ranch on invitation from a friend yeah and uh it was the first time that i was surfing with a bunch of people you know recent time and um it had nothing to do with people watching but it had everything to do with like i can but it had everything to do with like,

I can better that. I can better that. I can better what I just did. I felt myself sliding right, like from the mountaintop of a Zen state to like this alpha competitive, like bring the bigger one. I want the bigger one.

And so it was a fun kind of jostling that took place for me. You think that's a bad thing? Say it again. Do you think that's a bad thing? Say it again. Do you think that's a bad thing? No, I love it. I love range. Yeah.

For me, the good life is range. Yeah. And not to be encumbered or constricted when I'm at the end points of range. And so whether that's fear, whether that's intensity, whether that's kindness or love, whatever it might be, I want to be able to have a great range and dimension. You know, one last thing before we get into the questions, because I'm so glad you're asking me this. I heard, I'm not going to say who I heard say this, but I heard someone say recently, yesterday actually, they were saying, they're talking about manhood and how they come from an old school mentality where you know you just get out there and you work and you take care of your family you bust your ass

they don't have time for the uh the whole oh you know i was depressed today or i was just going through some things or i just feel like i have the weight of the world on my shoulders and they were saying that's soft and this is a strong this is a successful person saying this and they're like i don't really understand that. You know, I come from a whole different era where we just get it done. I got a family. I got stuff to get done. You know what I'm saying?

Look at me. Look at me. I'm successful. And I do understand that to a certain extent. But then it makes me harken back to the time, you know, let's just say the 50s, 60s, 70s. Yeah. It's kind of like when people say, my parents were together for 30 years, 40 years. You guys don't know how to stay together now.

But then I think back and I'm like, well, people kind of accepted and dealt with a lot of things that they didn't need to deal with. You know what I mean? Like women would be with men that would just do whatever they wanted to do, but they'd be like, I love your dad. Guys that would bust their ass and work really hard, would die early, have heart attacks,

have mental issues and things of that nature. So when you talk about the whole, you know, pushing yourself or the alpha mentality, or like you say, you like to play with the spectrum. Is that, and that's why I asked, is that a bad thing? Because sometimes, at least the way I grew up, I was told to go hard all the time. Now that I'm older, I'm realizing that going hard was just up i was told to go hard all the time now that i'm

older i'm realizing that going hard was just not the right way to go about it like you go hard some of the time but you play with the range yeah actually what you're what you're describing is what i hear in the commentary is about like the traditional historical male position and posture in life. Yeah. And personally, I think it's antiquated. I think it's muted. So I think that's why you pulled on what I was saying is that to only do a couple emotions, let me just stick with emotions first, to only be able to do a couple emotions well

is a muted way to go through life. Yeah. And so like I can do anger really well. I can do frustration really well, by the way, they're on the same kind of scale, if you will. And I can do a little bit of happiness, but too much happiness, I got problems. You know, like I'm not taken seriously. You know, like I look like I'm soft. If I'm always smiling, yeah, you know where I'm going. And then I definitely can't do stuff on the sad scale because that's really weak. Like, what do you mean you're sad?

And boy, forget about anxiety. Okay. So if there's four scales, just to use this performance model for a minute, I can do a little bit of happiness. I can do all of frustration or all of anger, but I'm muted in the other ones. I don't want that life. I want to do range for all of them. I want to know I can find myself in the deep sadness and find myself in just light sadness, that I can do the whole range. And I can go all the way to the top of the mountain with happiness and joy.

And I'll pause there for a minute because I found, I find, and I found that when there's a bliss, love, joy emotion in me, it's so overwhelming and we're so unpracticed with that fullness and the animation of that love and joy that we'll smile to give ourselves a buffer from the other person. We'll look away. We'll try to gather ourselves and we're trying to damp it down so we don't lose ourself in the joy and happiness. So I want to, I want to range. Finding Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Solutions. In any high-performing environment that I've been part of, from elite teams to executive boardrooms, one thing holds true. Meaningful relationships are at the center of sustained success. And building those relationships, it takes more than effort. It takes a real caring about your people.

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For two full months for free, terms and conditions apply. Finding Mastery is brought to you by David Protein. I'm pretty intentional about what I eat and the majority of my nutrition comes from whole foods. And when I'm traveling or in between meals on a demanding day, certainly I need something quick that will support the way that I feel and think and perform. And that's why I've been leaning on David Protein bars. And so has the team here at Finding Mastery. In fact, our GM, Stuart, he loves them so much. I just want to kind of quickly put them on the spot. Stuart,

I know you're listening. I think you might be the reason that we're running out of these bars so quickly. They're incredible, Mike. I love them. One a day, one a day. What do you mean one a day? There's way more than that happening here. Don't tell. Okay. All right, look, they're incredibly simple. They're effective. 28 grams of protein, just 150 calories, and zero grams of sugar.

It's rare to find something that fits so conveniently into a performance-based lifestyle and actually tastes good. Dr. Peter Attia, someone who's been on the show, it's a great episode by the way, is also their chief science officer. So I know they've done their due diligence in that category. My favorite flavor right now is the chocolate chip cookie dough. And a few of our teammates here at Finding Mastery have been loving the fudge brownie and peanut butter. I know, Stuart, you're still listening here. So getting enough protein matters. And that can't be understated, not just for strength, but for energy and focus, recovery, for longevity.

And I love that David is making that easier. So if you're trying to hit your daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value, and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash finding mastery. You've described me to the T. Yeah. I feel when I get too happy, too overjoyed, that it's gonna be snatched away.

So I try, my excuse is I'm even keeled. I just, I don't, my highs aren't too high, my lows aren't too low. I just accept it. Yeah, I appreciate that about you too. I appreciate that. But so that undulation around the middle path is really cool, you know?

And then, but if we don't, if we can't go outside the range, it's still muted. And so I'm just talking about the intense moment or moments of joy. I want to be able to stay in those a little bit longer. And the intense sadness, I want to stay in that a little bit longer. There's so much rich information in those states. And if we're muted, we're gating out really important information. So for me, there are little experiments that I run when I feel something is to, can I follow that just a little bit further? Can I maintain myself in it a little bit further?

And then do I feel like I'm going to fall apart? Oh, I do. Okay. Can I stay here for just a moment? further. And then do I feel like I'm going to fall apart? Oh, I do. Okay. Can I stay here for just a moment? Oh, I can. I'm okay. And I just keep playing that experiment out. And if I can do it with people that are backing me, like my wife and friends, like they're

like, oh, I see you. Okay. All right. All right, you know? Yeah. And, and they're creating, they're opening the aperture for me to, to do that. Now I've got a, a partnership of people that are helping with range as well. So that one of the challenges, like when I go back to and hang out with my high school friends, we had no range. So this is in the eighties, right? When I went to high school, we had no range.

And so when I go hang out with them, we fall back into no range. Right? And your laugh is funny because you know exactly what I'm talking about. I was just picturing you putting on some Van Halen with your buddies and like, yeah. Oh, you want Van Halen? You just fall back into no range at all. It wasn't Black Sabbath.

It was Van Halen, wasn't it? Okay, good. That's pretty funny. Yeah. And you definitely didn't go to Eazy-E, did you? No, no, not at all. You didn't, huh? No, I was listening to jazz.

You were listening to jazz? I was listening to jazz. No, I was saying that you didn't look at me and say, oh, LA guy. Most of the DC boys are easy. Oh, no, 100% Van Halen. And listen, when I think 80s, I think Kevin, what's his name? Kevin Bacon dancing Denise Williams. Let's hear it for the boys.

Oh, you do. Footloose, I think Van Halen. You got a good voice. Hey, thank you. I appreciate that. Yeah, yeah, I think that's awesome. So when you said you go back, I just saw. That was early 80s.

It was any music that would scare my parents. I know. See, I don't get that from you. That's weird. I don't get that from you at all. I think soft rock, like some easy stuff. You would not have recognized me when i was younger were you were you thugging back then not thugging no i was just a punk i was just

counterculture that's why and anxious which made me counterculture and angry yeah you know frustrated good kid yeah morally grounded but um just pushing as far as I could. That's great. It's funny because knowing you as I know you now, I can't even imagine it. Well, we all, you know, at some point either stay that path or you fall pretty hard. You know, and I left enough skin, emotional skin on the asphalt that I said, no, I think I need a, I'd like a different way. So when you get back with your friends and you fall out of range, how does that process start?

A joke or a laugh? You just, this is why people are so important. And we know that environments, there's some research out of Harvard that she took, the researcher took a bunch of, I think it was octogenarians, and then rewinded the clock in their setting and had them re-experience. So they had like 1920s music and 1920s couches and chairs and decoration. And they had them go back in time, if you will, for an extent, for like a week or a couple of days.

I can't remember the details of the study. And then they measured a bunch of outcomes, like they were moving better, they were feeling better, just being in an environment that was 20 years earlier. So they're 80 years old now and they rewind the clock in the environment to when they were like in their thirties or whatever age that would be. And so the environment alone can shape us. Our people in the environment can remind us and shape us yeah and so the people that we we partner with i think one of the biggest decisions in life is um our partner and it's foundationally one of the most important decisions we make

and many of us make it when we're you know young not young, not informed enough. So for the young folks, I always say, you need to listen now. You need to really listen to your body now. Listen to your gut, listen to your intuition, you know? And if you're only drinking when you're with your partner, like you're not really listening, you know, and pay attention to where you met your partner, you know, like who introduced you to your partner, you know, play the trajectory out a little bit. So yeah, anyways, I think it's one of the foundationally most important decisions that we make is who we partner with. Okay. So I, first I just want to apologize because I'm going to get to these questions now, but I just want to say this. I would like one day to just do an AMA with you

and just talk to you because I get lost in conversation with you when I know I have these questions I have to ask and I want to forgive the people who wrote these questions I'm going to get to your questions right now but Mike is so engaging I get lost and I get selfish I do thank you

here's a question here I'm an in-house M&A attorney at a progressive company with an overall great culture. The nature of my particular work is that it's cyclical with a deal flow. When we have big deals, everyone works around the clock or at least is on call for work as it arises, nights, weekends, et cetera. This is true for our internal foe, our outside counsel, the accounting firms, and investment banks we work with. The on-call nature of it, especially in relentlessly busy stretches, is wearing me thin, especially having a five-year-old daughter. My company is not an extraction culture, but this is what the work requires and what everyone does.

I hear you saying it is important to prioritize wellbeing as a foundation of high performance, but can you explain how this work, how this can work in my culture? How do I set boundaries and prioritize my own health recovery when the culture around me doesn't? Thanks in advance. Cool, multifaceted question,

as expected from an M&A attorney. Okay. So I hear a couple of things in the question. One is I chose to be a attorney. I chose to be a mother and that's an assumption I'm making. Okay. So I don't know if there was a force feeding to be an attorney or force feeding or pressure to be a mother, but I'm choosing to assume that this person is above average intelligence, that this person has high agency, that this person is co-directing and designing their life. And so that's the framing. Of course, not knowing, I've got to make some assumptions. Okay. And I'm imagining this person's got like a lot going on, switched on, getting after it and feeling some of the fatigue that comes with a highly electric

work environment that is an always on. And then I need to frame it. When I listen to the question, I need to frame it. Okay, so this is agency, this is choice, this is a highly electric environment. What does that compare to? Well, maybe an ER doc. And so an ER doc is doing things that's actually probably more intense, life-saving, if you will, always on in many respects, and there's a family dynamic there. How do they do it? So I'm lookingaving, if you will, always on in many respects. And there's a family dynamic there. Like how did they do it? So I'm looking for in my mind, other models that I can map to, to, to reference points. So I'm just letting you know how I'm thinking about it. And then, and then I need to, so that's my first go-to when I think about a question. My second is like, well, what's the emotional component? What's the emotional content inside of this? And I'm imagining this person is trying really hard and is tired, wants to have a great life

and is tired, loves the culture. It sounds like it's not an extraction culture, but isn't properly balancing the need to stress high and recover intensely. So it isn't finding that right balance between stress and recover. And over time that becomes pretty wearing. And I don't know if this person is like really a calling for help or is just at the beginning of the slide of fatigue. Like, are they really far down the slide? And they're like, look, it feels like I'm in quicksand or they like, oh, I need to just catch my breath. Like this is just moving a little bit faster than I wanted to. So I don't know the intensity, but the emotion piece is for me is like, I don't get helpless in this question. I don't get that at all. I get, what can I do? That's

why I'm mapping that, the sense of agency. So what can you do? One, remind yourself that you chose the path, right? And that you made many micro decisions that led you to where you are now so that you can make many micro decisions and have whatever life that you do want. You co-designed or designed the life that you're living. I think it's a really important first principle to come back to, which is like, wait, hold on. I had a lot to do with how I'm doing. Okay.

Why did I study to be an attorney? Is it for parent approval? Hmm. Hmm. Is it because I love, I love trying to sort out complicated deal structures? Oh, then when I go to work, I should be like loving. I should go back to what I love about what I chose early on. And if you have this honest experience with yourself, wait, I did it for mom and dad's approval. Then that's why you're going to an environment,

maybe feeling a little fatigued now. So work can be generative. J-O-B is not, but the labor in which you apply yourself to something that you find important and meaningful and generative and stimulating can actually not be the drain that most people feel. So go back to the source and then have an honest conversation. So this person, I say, go back to the source of why you chose to be an M&A attorney. And so now there's a decision tree. And if the honesty is, yeah, I did this for approval. I did this for money. I did this for status.

Oh, what are you gonna do with that? Is there a career change? Or is there something in it that you can fall in love with now that you're here? Now that you're at a successful firm, is there a love affair you can foster in your work environment for yourself? That sounded like a fling or affair. That's not what I was saying. I'm saying a love affair with your work.

And at the same time, that is practice for the love affair with other people in your life. So what does that mean? She wants to be probably a great mom. Did you say it was a male or female? Michelle. Forgive me, Michelle. She likely wants to be a great mom. What the typical narrative is, is I grind and I come home and I'm tired and agitated and I don't have much to give. So if we can find ways to, inside the rhythm of business, to expend our energy in a highly electric way and recover in intelligent ways inside the nine to five, inside the eight to

seven, whatever the job structure is to find a better balance of recovery there. We come home with the right energy or better energy than we once did to give to our kids. Does that make sense? Yeah. Okay. So the first thing to do is like, be honest with yourself. And then when you look in the mirror there, you got some big choices to make. If you're going to stay the path of being an MNA and you did it for status, power and approval, then you've got to re-engineer your relationship with being an attorney. If you really love the complicated nature, go back to the dream of when you're a kid and you really wanted to do this. Reinvigorate the dream. That opens up the aperture of how you move through your day, part one. Part two is to invest in best practices throughout the day to recover.

Maybe it's a nap. You say, I can't do that. Yeah, you do. You can. You control your schedule. You can shut your door for 15 minutes. You can put on a meditative app. You could maybe do fill in the blank, lots of different things, stretching, shoulder unlocking, breathing, listening to good music for a few minutes, maybe bring an old record

player in, whatever, something that is soothing for you during the rhythm of business. I would practice if I'm feeling tired by the time I get home, I would, my first mentor in private practice as a psychologist said, look, Mike, you pour everything into your clients. What I need you to do, I need you to start practicing after somebody leaves. This is when I was like 40 clients a week, you know, like every hour for 40, you know, so it was a lot for me. Some people can do it better than I could. After every client, go to the bathroom, wash your hands, do a little breathing thing, a little prayer thing, let go, like really let go so that when

you come back, you've got a renewed sense. It's a little micro, a little thin slice of recovery. And so that's how I would think about it. And then the ultimate, okay, hold on. What we're really trying to do at Finding Mastery here is help people live a great life. That's it. A great life. We don't know how long we get. We don't know how long we have. We have more power to create the life than we want, than we express.

So the first order of business is always to go within. And you can unlock the resources that you need. And part of that is choice, choosing to fall in love with the environments and the challenges that you have. And part of that is recovering intelligently. That's how the great athletes do it. Like Michael Jordan doesn't talk about going to work. He says, no, we're going to go play, and I'm going to play hard. And that framing is cool. There's something really gentle. Now, he's known as being one of the hardest workers ever, you know? But I say that because it's in the context of play and a love

of what he was trying to do. I don't want to get complicated with Jordan in this, you know, because he's beautifully complicated in many ways. So, and then I'd be great on recovery strategies after I put the kids down. I would minimize screen time. I would minimize a bunch of other stuff so that I give myself a chance to fall asleep. And I would be incredibly disciplined with hydration and nutrition. I would eat as many colorful foods as I possibly can. And I would make those choices to not have food coming from plastic. And I'd make sure I'm really well hydrated I don't concretely like 12 ounces of some water or form of water before before I even leave the

house yeah you know like I get on my hydration game get on nutrition and I could keep going but those would be some basic ones. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentous. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday, what you put in your body matters. And that's why I trust Momentous. From the moment I sat down with Jeff Byers, their co-founder and CEO, I could tell this was not your average supplement company. And I was immediately drawn to their mission, helping people achieve performance for life. And to do that, they developed what they call the Momentus Standard.

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Just good design, great science. And if you're ready to feel the difference for yourself, Felix Gray is offering all Finding Mastery listeners 20% off. Just head to felixgray.com and use the code findingMastery20 at checkout. Again, that's Felix Gray. You spell it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com and use the code FindingMastery20 at FelixGray.com for 20% off. I'm going to ask you a weird question. question that because everything that you said pertain to the individual like michelle making these concerted efforts to you know create this uh a better life for herself in a more comfortable situation do you think at any particular time the company the firm that you

work for do you think it would behoove them to create the environment for their employee, knowing that most employees come into the environment busting their asses working 10 to 12 hours? But you said something that kind of jarred me when you were like, we don't know how long we get. And it kind of just slapped me into reality. But putting that up on the wall, you don't know how long you get. Take a break. Stretch. Listen to some music. Like these affirmations, these reaffirming things to let people know that, hey, we want you to be the most productive person you can be.

But we realize the workload can be stressful. So, you know, this is not really cheesy. We have. Are you editing? You're editing as you go. As I go. We have. Yeah. Editing. We have on-call therapists for you go. As I go. We have, yeah, editing it.

We have on-call therapists for you to talk to. Yeah, I need you to get this deadline done for me. But hey, you know what? We have therapists you can talk to for 15 minutes, you know, just to get some things off your chest. Do that, okay? Look at that sign. You see what that sign says?

We don't know how long we get. Even though I want you to be the most productive worker you can be for me, I want you to live your life too. I want you to be happy most productive worker you can be for me, I want you to live your life too. I want you to be happy. Are more companies starting to do that so you won't have Michelle's asking questions like this or saying, how do I? That would be what I would consider a modern leader is that they are creating an ideal or more optimized external environmental structure for people to be their best. And I'm pointing to not waiting

or looking for somebody else to take action for you to work from the inside out. So it's always available to work from the inside out. That's my reflective response is like, what can you do? Even if you're in a rugged environment or like environment that is not caring, what can you do to take care? And so you just described what I would call the modern leader. And I imagine if you've got your firm, whatever the business is,

that you would operate from two things probably, I think, and this is what we're doing at Fighting Mastery, and that's probably why it's an easy conversations for us, but tell me if I'm wrong, is impermanence and interconnectedness. So we're all connected in this thing. That's a grand idea. That was one of Buddha's big ideas. And impermanence, every moment is fleeting. Like this moment is the only moment we have, so be in it. And so that idea of impermanence and interconnectedness are two principles that, I don't know, they've stood up for about 2,600 years. And every world religion and many of the great philosophers have wrestled with the meaning and purpose of life. And so if you have phraseology that ladders up to

a first principle, like impermanence, we don't know how long we're going to get. We don't know how long you're going to be. You don't know how long you're going to be here. I don't know how long I'm going to be here. So bring everything you've got. That's why recovery is so important. So you can live with zest and fire. And I'm just looking to how elite athletes do it. Elite sport teams double down on recovery because they know that they're not going to have this for very long. And the specialness that they have inside of them, the fundamental commitment is to release it, to untap it. And so you got to work really hard to do that and recover really hard. Yeah. That's a great.

Was that satisfying? It's satisfying. I'm satisfied. I felt very like monotone in my entire, you know. No, no, no. I'm satisfied, especially with the comparison with the elite athletes, because that's true. You can learn a lot from them because it's a short, short window of opportunity they have to showcase their skills. So you've got to take care of yourself. And if you think about that in life. That's right. Well, yeah, I've never really,

I've never made that comparison. So yeah, there's a shot clock in life, but we, we pretend like it's not there. Man, I don't know why about that. Yeah. All right, this next message is from Jeremy. Jeremy Scanlon, I love that last name. Mike has previously said on one or two episodes something like,

the world didn't need 21-year-old Mike. I remember you saying that. Meaning I think Mike maybe once had traits or practices that didn't serve him or affected his personal or professional relationships. Yet today, the world desperately needs Mike Gervais of 2024, who has become someone dedicating his life to help others become the best. We need 1,000 Dr. Mikes. I'd love to hear what happened in between some perspective from Dr. Mike on how he bridged the gap between the person he once was and the one he wanted to become or has become and is becoming. Appreciate you, O'Neal. Appreciate you too, Jeremy. Love these episodes.

Cool. Thank you. That was very kind. World does not need a thousand me's. It needs a thousand more people being themselves. And so I'll just frame it quickly is that I was, I didn't know it at the time, but I was anxious. This is like 2020 hindsight is so much clearer is that I was really anxious as a kid and, um, I didn't know how to deal with that anxiety. So I

was just quick to intolerance. And so I would be, I was trigger angry. And so it just was, I was unsettled. And then so, and then I would, to deal with that anxiety and it would express in frustration and it was an exacting standard that I would imply on myself and other people. That's lame. That's really lame.

So if you think about that, an anxious kid, very competitive, didn't want to show anxiety, didn't want to show the frustration either. So I had to bottle it all up. And I didn't really know how to do it. And so when it would come out, it would be, people would be like, whoa. And they would feel, people around me would feel the way I felt inside, which was judgmental and critical and harsh to myself. Here's the upside, the plus side of that is that it helped me get good at things.

The downside is I never really felt good. So I would give what I had. That's all I could give. So I couldn't give happiness and generativity and kindness and hope. I didn't have it. I wasn't depressed. I wasn't hopeless. But the bigger emotions were anxiousness, worry, intolerance, frustration, critique, and judgment. That's where my statement comes from. I didn't need more of that. We don't need more of that. We've got lots of that. And I still have to work with that. You know, I am fundamentally different in some ways.

And I like to think that I kept my values in place. It's something I rest on. And so the world needs more people to be off access. If you, I think about the founder of Patagonia says, if you want to understand entrepreneurship, understand, examine juvenile delinquents. I go, yep. You know, the ones that were pushing against the grain. And I love the counterculture. Nick Fanning, three-time world champion in surfing says, and I think he said it on the podcast, he says, you know, when the world's zigging, I want to zag. When the lineup is moving towards a wave

and like out in the lineup and there's 50 people paddling towards a wave, he goes, I just sit still. Let them clear out. I'm going to wait for something to come on this side of the, you know, the point. So that, that, that courage to, to feel something, to know something or to say, I just feel like pushing against the grain. I love it. And so the reason I changed was because I had enough internal scratchy agitation that I said, I'm sick and tired of being sick and tired. And that's a playbook from addiction. I'm just sick and tired of being sick and tired. And so Lisa, my wife, held up the mirror for me and was like, yeah, is this who you really want to be? I'm not down with it. We're already married. She's like, I'm not down with it we're already married she's like i'm not down with that and so um so like trying to change your operating system that's a hard thing to do that's a very hard thing

to do to reprogram to reconstitute your psychology is possible is totally possible. And so anyways, I hope that I can stand for hope. I hope that I can stand for do the work and I'm still doing the work. And if there is any difference I'm making in someone's life, it would be like, you can do the work too. You can do the work. And so I know you understand that from an athlete perspective,

from a humanist who is working on yourself every day, I know you can understand that. I think the listener can as well. Yeah, so I'm rooting for people, like really rooting for people. I'm rooting for myself too. Like I'm trying my best. You know, like we're all just trying to figure it out.

My path is almost immaterial to every other person on the planet. My path is an N of one. And the way that I've contoured, you know, my choices is immaterial to others. Like we can't compare. We can maybe use it for inspiration. Meaning that like, oh, that seems like I could kind of relate to that. But I remember I was mentoring, this was when I was right out of, it was a job and I was mentoring a group of high school kids. And I responded to something that was really intense in my authentic best way.

And one of the high school kids, and I was probably 28. And there was two kids in particular, they're both really switched on. I mean, incredibly switched on high school kids. And one of them was like, that was awesome. And the other ones said out loud to me and to the other kid, and they were best buds, said, that's not the mentor I want to be part of. That doesn't resonate at all with me. And I was like, good for you. Right? Like, that set with me. One way, it's like kind of, it was a bite.

Like, oh. And another way, it was like kind of it was a bite like oh and another way it was like good for you because the way i chose to act didn't relate to him if you love the way it feels to be around r and b music those are that's the vibe you're looking for death rock is not going to be your path so find inspiration inside of the relationships that that you that provide hope for growth. So anyways, that's a long way to answer. No, man, I love that. I love that. I love that.

I mean, as far as you won't feel like the world needs a thousand more Dr. Mikes, I love that response. That was great. Question. Do you think, like when you said you were mentoring these two high school kids

and one responded positively and the other one was like that's not really my thing how do you get over like I'm going to use the R&B example I love R&B

every now and then some death metal will pop up and I'll be like that's kind of dope but that's rare right that's rare so when I hear death metal I'm like what the why the fuck does that even exist everybody on the earth should

be listening to r&b what are you thinking and anime and watching anime what are you doing you're not watching anime and listen to r&b why are you even listen i do not understand anime okay right like i'm glad we're talking about this as i introduced it i was watching something on your social um on anime i was like i was like that i really hey what the fuck is going on were you really excited watching that anime show or were you were you like putting it on just to no no no no no no let me explain something to you let me explain something to you okay let's get this straight right now. Seriously.

That shit moves me. My brother, I know what you're talking about. You're talking about Naruto, so let's talk about it. No, I don't even know what you just said. Well, don't worry about it. What'd you say? Naruto? Naruto. Naruto. Naruto.

Yeah, gotta roll the R. Oh, okay. But we'll talk about that later. We'll deal with that later. Not only one of the biggest animes ever, it moved me, it spoke to to me my brother put me on it maybe 17 years ago and one summer he and i sat and we watched it man there's been there's been times when i've watched episodes of the show and i cried like it moved me now i'm a grown-ass man so now i understand why what does the ass do in that statement?

What, the grown ass man? Oh, it just makes me more, you know, posturing, I'm a grown ass man. Damn, why you gotta ask me that? Yeah, you gotta stick ass in it. I'm a grown, I'm a whole grown ass man. I mean, if you take it out like I'm a grown man. Yeah, yeah.

Grown ass just feels more powerful though. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I understand. Wanna say it, try it. Yeah, I'm a grown ass man. If you take it out like I'm a grown man. Yeah, yeah. Grown ass just feels more powerful though. Yeah, I understand. Wanna say it, try it. Yeah, I'm a grown ass man. See the boom. Did you like that? I came from a place. You came from a place.

Oh, okay, good, thank you. But I think my love for it is because it's fictional and life isn't fictional. And in fiction, it allows us to see what we can be, the best of us, right? Because in the real world, things aren't going to always work out perfectly. The good guy doesn't always win, right?

Who are you in Star Wars? I mean, damn, that's... I gotta say, I'm a Skywalker. I'm a fucking Jedi. Corny as hell. I'm a Skywalker I'm a fucking Jedi corny as hell I'm a Jedi if anybody sees me on the street don't run up on me

talking to me he asked me this you went Luke you went Luke yeah I'm somewhere in the Jedi yeah cause I want butterflies to land

on my finger you do yeah yeah I wanna be one with the universe yeah yeah you think your your crew wants you to be like Dark Sith or you're supposed to be on the dark side?

Well, I mean, now we've discovered there are gray Jedis or gray people that are in the middle. They're not light or dark. They have a little bit of both. Oh, I don't know this. Yeah. Is that right? You got to read the books. Yeah.

I think you introduced that and I forgot it. Yeah. So I would say I'm more like that. Well, no, Luke was not great, was he? No, he was completely Jedi, completely, you know, just. So you identify with the quote unquote good folks. Yeah, like Ahsoka, she's like that, right? She's in the middle, you know?

I love that show, that was fun. I love that show, it was great. So anime allows me to see that. It allows me to see what we can be. It's corny, it's cheesy. You can just go into that world and forget about the real thing i love this answer i love where you're taking this like it it's a it's a way for you to see hope and potential and vision and what could be for you and for others yeah that is really cool finding master is brought to you by cozy earth over the

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a beautifully poetic way. And then you hear about the person who wrote it or sung it and they like beat up their wife or they're a drug addict. And I'm like, how can all these amazing things come from people how can we aspire to be to love a person like this or to be this good but in the real world we do some yeah wow i don't know i mean humans are the most complex ecosystems there are like i don't know and i remember one of my um supervisors said you know mike you seem really positive i was like oh thank you she says um before you see any more clients i want to understand your shadow side so what do you mean she goes well no one's all light

and if you're presenting only with all light, I'm never going to believe you. And I think you're going to hurt people. Oh, so what do you mean? She says, I want to know your dark side. I want to know the other side of you. Like, like, what do you mean? I want to know the parts of you that you're hiding. I want to know the parts of you that,'re hiding. I want to know the parts of you that you feel shameful about because that's in there.

And if you over-rotate on being positive and hopeful and you're actually working from a place of fear and self-doubt, you're giving something fake like can you really sit with the complexity of yourself aside across from the complexity of another human i was like yeah so i didn't answer the question yeah yeah i just looked at her and i was like i don't know where to go and she says i want to know that i was like that's cool that's cool. And so I came back around another time. I didn't want to give her something fake. And so that work is awesome. That's when doing that shadow work or that facing your dragon,

as I like to talk about it, that other part of you, it's really freeing. And so you don't have to rotate in a fake way. And so when I hear you talk about like the hope that anime gives you and like the vision and the complexity of the human experience, whether it's in music where we're talking about love, but we know the other side, the dark side. Man, what a complicated ecosystem. Super complicated. It's so complicated. And the ones that say i got this or they present like they got this yeah i mean that's a good case to zig when when they're saying you know you should zag forget about it again i'll go back to this idea that your life is uniquely yours. And I'm rooting for you.

My life, the choices I've made are unique to my neurochemistry, my genetic coding, the neighborhood I grew up on. You know, like, it's totally unique. So anyways, I'm rooting for you, whoever it is. And for you, I'm still more curious about anime, but I like the framing. I appreciate the framing of it. Yeah, yeah. Escapism to some degree.

Escapism. Yeah. Oh. The nod, the nod. Escaping reality. Oh yeah, just be quiet for a minute. Just let you deal with that. That's different.

That's, Neil's a different guy, yeah. He's, okay, if you say so, Neil, if you say so, O'Neal, if you say so. What are you escaping? I mean, the melancholy, drab reality of the real world. If you look on the news and you see all the things that are happening, and if you take so much of it in. See, I absorb all of that like i like watching every single you're like a sponge yeah and i absorb it i want to feel it i want to understand it i sympathize

with it i'm empathetic i but i'm finding the older i'm getting it's i'm it's too much i'm taking too much of it on you know you, one of the most polarizing coaches, Bobby Knight, basketball coach. Yeah. One of his frameworks was you're either a sponge or a sieve. Super interesting idea. And so the idea,

the framing was like, are you going to hold onto it or let it run through you? Let it pass through you. And are you an empath, like an empathic person that you feel it and you hold on to it and then like it's almost overwhelming? A hundred percent. Yeah. A hundred percent. I personally, my wife is that way.

And so I'm up close to it, but it doesn't either i'm muted there yeah or like i like i don't i can see your stuff or your stuff but it doesn't become mine yeah and so i don't know if that's like my wife when she's having a moment she's like you're like an armadillo yeah yeah they just i don't like that framing. I want to be a panda. We've talked about this. Yes, yes, we have. But my lower version, I'm an armadillo where it's just like not coming in.

And that can feel really cold, but I respect the empath. I really respect what you're saying and so i would i wonder if when you hear the sieve or the um or the sponge what what you think of that yeah okay well number one i'm definitely not that i don't filter anything out i take it all in here's the thing i'm learning with myself though this is gonna sound really up get ready for this you're in good hands thank you i appreciate that joking appreciate it this is marginal this is very suspect you know what's coming from me has been unverified and untested yeah i'm an empath i absorb all of it and i see people people's pain and i see people do wrong then I don't like it I don't like it so much so that I would employ what the bad people do to reprimand the bad people oh so Luke puts on like a false flag yeah

right yeah that's a weird metaphor but like Luke puts on the Sith kind of whatever to go fix it. And then justify it. Like I killed all the bad people, what's wrong? And then it's that old saying that, you know, you live long enough to see yourself become the bad guy, but you justify it. Never heard that.

What is that? What's that old saying that you live long enough to see yourself become the bad guy? They used it in the Batman movie with Christian Bale. I don't think that's well written no did i just piss you off no not really i love chris for nolan and his brother i think they did an amazing job yeah the one with heath ledger oh that was good yeah great but um it's kind of like that type of thing that you know i i hate wrong so much that i would almost do wrong against wrong. And then you become that thing. Super complex.

So it makes me think about dictators and people in the world that become bad people. I'm sure at some point they really believed and thought that what they were doing was for the greater good. That's an interesting pivot because maybe, maybe, but I think that you are, you're a healthy human trying to understand an unhealthy human.

So dictators, for the most part, are the dark triad. So cult leaders may be different. I don't know. Actually, I don't want to extend that thought because I don't know. But the dark triad, Machiavellian, narcissist, and sociopathology, those three, when they're together, are like the most dangerous people in the world. They're looking for power. It's all about them.

They'll do whatever it takes, sociopathology. They don't feel pain themselves. That's why they don't understand like, look, just cut off his arm. Because they don't feel pain. Like, it's not that big a deal. It's only an arm. Don't cut off mine, though. I want mine.

How dare you think that you could cut off mine yeah you know so and then the machiavellian is they they're shrouding it their message and their approach in um in a in a cloak that you can't quite see through and so they're very slippery smart dangerous people and they they tend to at all costs think that they deserve power and they'll desperately do whatever it takes to be in power. And so I think that it's kind of like trying to think like an addict. If you're not an addict, it's very hard to understand how they could steal from mom. Yeah. Right. And so it's very hard. It's, it's like a, it's a weird gymnastics internally to do, to try to put yourself in side, the experience of another person. That's very hard to do. So I,

I actually think that your approach still sounds like the white knight, but you've kind of put on maybe a Robin hood type thing. You've put on a different cape to go after it which is pretty complex i'm not so sure means justify the end but for some people it could yeah when it comes to taking life are you more interested in utilitarian approach or a um do no harm approach so killing one that could save a million a thousand killing one that could save 12 versus no no no no we do no harm approach so killing one that could save a million a thousand killing one that could save 12 versus no no no no we do no harm utilitarian utilitarian yeah no yeah it's a i think something complicated to wrestle with philosophers have wrestled with this for a long time okay this question is from jason if you could give someone a single piece of advice

that will make their life better, what would it be? Okay, Jason. The idea of asking another person for advice, I find to be troubling. Jason, I don't know you. I don't know your unique life experiences. There are better people than me to be able to answer that because it's out of context. Whatever I'm going to say is out of context. So I'm going to pause for a minute and then I'd love to hear how you respond

to this. Man, I have a really reckless response, probably. Reckless. Maybe because I'm trying to edit for the world. No, don't, like, no, do your thing. All right, fuck every single, Jason, fuck everybody. Fuck everybody. Do what you wanna do. It's your life, you get to live it.

Don't ask for permission. As long as you don't hurt anybody, do what comes to your mind. Bottom line. Be what you want to be. Listen to your heart. Listen to what's in your head. Don't question it. If it's there, it's there for a reason.

If it's a mistake, you'll learn from that mistake. I mean, that's how I. That's an operating system for you? Yes. Where did that come from from the times that I did ask for permission the times that I did seek advice and things didn't work out for me that I should have just followed my own heart and just there's been millions of times where I felt a certain way but because I saw my mom and my dad asked for advice so my friends

asked for advice or on television on a television show they're my dad ask for advice or my friends ask for advice or on television, on a television show, they're asking their friend for advice. I'm like, I guess what you're supposed to do, ask for advice. And I did it and it didn't work out the way I wanted it to work out. And I was like, I would rather roll the dice on my own.

There you go. That's interesting. I see why you said it was reckless. You told me to be honest. I did. I'm not robbing no banks with you. That's so funny. I'm not robbing any banks with you.

I just got the joke. That's really funny. Yeah, that is really good. Nah, like the energy behind that's palpable. I can feel it. Yeah. Yeah. Very cool, man. I it yeah yeah very cool man i love doing these with you i love thanks for creating the space this is this is awesome thanks for being you man you know i have an idea what about you having a 1-800 number and on sunday no hold on how about

you have a 1-800 right on sundays we just ask you questions we just call you all day it's so funny oh yeah i appreciate I appreciate you. Appreciate you too. Thank you. Thank you. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you.

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