Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - How to Manage Your Thoughts, Stay Present & Let Go of People Pleasing | AMA Vol. 13 with Dr. Michael Gervais

Episode Date: November 20, 2023

Welcome to the 13th installment of our Ask Me Anything series, where your questions take center stage and our answers offer you guidance on the road to mastery.The goal behind our monthly AMA series is to dive deep into the questions that challenge and inspire you on your path to becoming your best.We’re stoked about all the excellent questions we received for this 13th AMA. Our co-host, O’Neil Cespedes, is back again to make sure we keep it real as we navigate the rich landscape of your questions.In this episode, we dive deep into:Best practices for managing unproductive thoughtWhy it’s important to square up with pain and sufferingThe connection between quality sleep and being your bestHow to push away recurring negative thoughtsHow to develop your “It Factor” (no, it’s not genetic!)How disordered thinking takes shape from microtraumasWhy people-pleasing masks your fear of other people’s opinions, or FOPO*And so much more… Enjoy! With fire,MG* The book, The First Rule of Mastery: Stop Worrying About What People Think of You, offers more detailed insight._________________Resources for those who may be struggling:Need to talk to someone?Click HERE for Mental Health WarmlinesU.S. Suicide hotlinesIf you’re having thoughts of harming yourself or you’re in an immediate mental health crisis situation, people at the following suicide hotlines in the U.S. can help.988 - Suicide and Crisis LifelineCall or text 988, or chat 988lifeline.org(The old National Suicide Prevention Lifeline number will work indefinitely; it is 1-800-273-TALK [8255])1-800-784-2433 (1-800-SUICIDE) - National Hopeline Network1-866-488-7386 (1-866-4.U.TREVOR aimed at gay and questioning youth)_________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Finding Mastery is brought to you by Remarkable. In a world that's full of distractions, focused thinking is becoming a rare skill and a massive competitive advantage. That's why I've been using the Remarkable Paper Pro, a digital notebook designed to help you think clearly and work deliberately. It's not another device filled with notifications or apps.

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stay present and engaged with my thinking and writing. If you wanna slow down, if you wanna work smarter, I highly encourage you to check them out. Visit remarkable.com to learn more and grab your paper pro today. No, that is not a genetic predisposition to have the it factor. You develop it.

You develop it by all the psychological skills and all the practices that you do to know how to be fully present, independent of the conditions, independent of the environment. And when you can do that, you have freedom. You are no longer whipped around by the external world. You know how to stand in your body and be fully present with any moment. You know how to meet the demands of a moment because you have the psychological skills to pivot and adjust. Welcome back, or welcome to another Ask Me Anything on Finding Mastery. I'm your host,

Dr. Michael Gervais, by trade and training a high-performance psychologist. Now, the purpose behind these conversations, behind these AMAs, is to hear from you, to explore the topics and questions that you've been wrestling with on your path to becoming. Now, the goal is to expand on the themes and the lessons and the best practices that we've discussed on the Finding Mastery podcast in order to make them even more applicable to your own life. We want to wrestle them down to make them real for you. So we're back with the one and the only O'Neill Cespedes, and today we've got a fun one for you.

We dive into gift giving and thoughts around the holiday season, why people pleasing may be harming your well-being, the role and importance of great coaches, how sleep is intricately linked to performance, how to untangle your identity from external validation, and so much more. So with that, we are wishing you and yours a very happy holiday season. So let's jump right into volume 13 of Finding Masteries, Ask Me Anything. O'Neill, happygiving dr mike happy thanksgiving yeah this is one of my favorite seasons in the year yeah why well just people and family and connections and yeah there's just like i'm not caught up in the hustle and bustle of like um

kind of the end of the year grind and thinking about gifts while i love giving gifts you know it's just that whole thing this just just has, it's free from that. And I personally love it. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I love it too. I don't like the gift giving part. Cause it's like, I feel like it's burdensome now. I can't expect things. Yeah.

Yeah. Cause I don't expect anything. So I'm like, you know. No. Is that just lower your expectations? No, I'm lying to you. I expect something. Oh, you do? I just don't want to give anything. I'm just being real with you, so, you know. You've also got some interesting nails. Yeah. You know, I was lying to you. I expect something. Oh, you do? I just don't want to give anything. I'm just being real with you. You've also got some interesting nails.

Yeah. You know, I was trying to hide them, but since you called them out, I guess I... You can't hide those nails. Yeah. I can't hide these nails. So, yeah, yeah. So, like, okay. Fuchsia.

I didn't know they were fuchsia. I thought they were dark pink. Okay. Well, I mean, you know, I'm not an expert, but what's the reason behind it? No reason. I mean, I get my nails painted. I get my toes and my nails done. And the nail ladies that were doing my toes and nails, I don't know.

They were asking me what color I wanted. I normally get them black. But I was like, let me try something different, you know? And they're like, what do you want? And I was like, yeah, give me the dark pink. But actually fuchsia. And they're like, what do you want? And I was like, yeah, give me the dark pink, with actually fuchsia. And they applied them. Is this like, how long has this been happening for you?

I get my nails done all the time, so for a while. I've never gotten this standout of a color, so I've been getting a lot of responses on it. You know what I'm saying? So as you can imagine. Like from friends? Yeah friends yeah oh yeah my friends male friends in particular give me a hard time give me a hard time but i'm o'neill so it makes no difference to me i'm like i'm o'neill so it makes no difference awesome well i'm glad we're

at it again i'm glad we're at it again too oh by the way before i forget congratulations on the book yeah thank you congratulations i mean, it was awesome. Yeah. And it is awesome. It's not like it stops now, but it was a great adventure for probably about two years of work and research with Kevin Lake. And we just rolled up our sleeves and went to work on this concept of FOPO, fair people's opinions. And the response was overwhelming is an interesting word in it because I want to say unexpected, but I think that this idea that we have this operating system that is chronically, consistently checking to see if we're okay yeah i notice it in me i

don't know if you notice it in you but um i mean it's almost universal and so people are responding in that way with it that yeah me too me too yep i got that as well like oh man finally there's a name for it yeah and so um yeah it's great and i'm excited for hopefully the ripple the ripple in the pond that takes place from people at least identifying it. And then once you identify it, you can do something with it. Well, I mean, the ripple is already occurring. First of all, shout out to Kevin. But the ripple is already occurring. My nails.

I mean, just from being around you, I don't care what people think. There's a freedom in it. Thank you for that. And let's jump in. Let's go. Let's do it. First question is from Daniel. Thank you for that. And let's jump in. Let's go. Let's do it. First question is from Daniel. Thank you for all that you do.

I'm a prone paddleboarder who competes in big crossing races, and I've had success in applying ideas from your works. My question is about how to safely think about the outcome. When I'm in practice or competition and things are going well, I find my mind drawn to thoughts of positive outcomes. Standing on the podium, for example. These feel dangerous. And I let them go and move my mind back to the moment so I don't become burdened by the thoughts of the outcome when things get tough.

Is this correct? Is a defensive strategy that feels somewhat fearful? Is there a safe way to think about the outcome so I can generate belief in my ability to achieve it, but without the burden? There's a lot in there. Let's start with what prone paddling is. Prone paddle boarding is a 14-foot long surfboard.

It's got, usually it's got like pointed ends on it, so it cuts through the wind and the water well well and they are on their knees paddling and so it's intense it's a legit sport there's lots of discomfort in the movement and so from an endurance standpoint this takes a lot to do and so you imagine being out in the middle of the ocean on your knees, both arms ripping through the ocean, paddling as fast as you possibly can for as long as you possibly can. And so I'm not sure what channel crossing I'm assuming he's referring to the Catalina to Southern California from the Catalina Island to Southern California, which is about 30 some miles,

depending on the route that you take. So what he's asking, it sounds like is when he's, when Daniel is out in doing his thing, that he's got thoughts that come up. And when those thoughts come up, it sounds like the thoughts of success. And he's wondering if that is dangerous. So it's a little confusing, but let me just pull back for a moment because I think I know what he's talking about. Thoughts are just thoughts. So one thought leads to another thought, leads to another thought, and eventually you become aware of that thought stream.

So thoughts lead to patterns of thought, and then patterns of thought leads to habits of thought, and then habits of thought become invisible. So meaning that it becomes automatic. And then patterns of thought leads to habits of thought. And then habits of thought become invisible. So meaning that it becomes automatic. So from thought to thought patterns to habits of thought. Most of us have such well-ingrained habits of thought that it's very difficult to become aware of actually the thought pattern, let alone the slipperiness of one little thought. So it sounds like he's attuned to thoughts. So he's aware when a thought comes up and it's a thought of success, a thought of a later outcome that is interesting

or pleasing to him. So let me go back to that first thought that I shared is that thoughts are just thoughts, which is a very, it's a philosophical position. I'm not taking this from a scientific position at all. Philosophically, there are people that think exactly the opposite of what I just said, that no, thoughts are behaviors. And there are some religious doctrine that suggests that thoughts and behaviors are the same thing, and they have the same type of consequence. So thinking ill of another person is the same in this example as doing ill to another person. I actually don't, I don't fall in that philosophical line. I think that thoughts are just thoughts. Thoughts have potency though, because when you think about something over time,

it does influence behavior. Okay. So again, thoughts are just thoughts. So you can say hello and goodbye to a thought and not be tangled in it in any way. Like, oh, I see that thought. And then move to something new or something concrete to focus on. That idea is so refreshing to me that I don't really care what the thought is that I'm aware of. The fact that I'm aware that I'm having a thought, now it gives me opportunity.

It gives me options. I can keep riding that thought, or I could say hello and goodbye and come back to something new, or I could flip it all completely. And so for me, it's like the awareness is the game and Daniel's aware. And that is where the whole thing begins. And so the fact that he's aware, I would say, Daniel, don't sweat it. Like when you have that thought and it's, and you're liking the vibe and it's kind of putting you in a, in a good state. And at the same time, you're in an automatic way with how you're rowing or paddling. Cool.

That's nice. But if that thought is distracting or you're frustrated with it or it's taking away from the thing that you need to be focusing on, well, then you've got an opportunity to shift that thought or to refocus back to the sound of the water or the cadence of your row or paddle. So again, I'll just oversimplify. A thought is just a thought. I'm not interested in the material content of the thought in this conversation. Once you're aware, you can guide.

And there's freedom, incredible freedom in that. Okay, no one does it alone. And I want to share a couple sponsors that are making this show possible. Finding Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Solutions. In any high-performing environment that I've been part of, from elite teams to executive boardrooms, one thing holds true. Meaningful relationships are at the center of sustained success. And building those relationships, it takes more than effort. It takes a real caring about your people. It takes the right tools, the right information at the right

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our team lives and breathes by. If you're ready to start building stronger relationships that actually convert, try LinkedIn Sales Navigator for free for 60 days at linkedin.com slash deal. That's linkedin.com slash deal for two full months for free. Terms and conditions apply. Finding Mastery is brought to you by David Protein. I'm pretty intentional about what I eat, and the majority of my nutrition comes from whole foods. And when I'm traveling or in between meals, on a demanding day certainly, I need something quick that will support the way that I feel and think and perform. And that's why I've been leaning on David Protein bars. And so has the team here at Finding Mastery.

In fact, our GM, Stuart, he loves them so much. I just want to kind of quickly put them on the spot. Stuart, I know you're listening. I think you might be the reason that we're running out of these bars so quickly. They're incredible, Mike. I love them. One a day, one a day. What do you mean one a day? There's way more than that happening here. Don't tell. Okay. All right. Look, they're incredibly simple. They're effective. 28 grams of protein, just 150 calories and zero grams of sugar. It's rare to find something that fits so conveniently into a performance-based lifestyle and actually tastes good. Dr. Peter Attia, someone who's been

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So if you're trying to hit your daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash finding mastery. And now back to the conversation. As I was reading this, I'm like, I don't see the problem here, Daniel. It seemed like a high class thought to have, because I mean, most of the time in competition, under dire circumstances, people are thinking negative thoughts. Like, what if my arms get tired? Or what if this happens, that happens?

If you're thinking about being on the podium and win, I'm like, bruh. Yeah, roll with it. Yeah, roll with it. You know, that's a great problem to have. Yeah, no problems at all. I mean, a thought is just a thought and how you work with the thought, that's the real skill. And there are unproductive, just to take this a little further, there are unproductive thoughts and there's productive thoughts.

Productive thoughts help back you and build you and create a vibe and they give you direction. Like those types of thoughts facilitate you being at your best. And the unproductive thoughts are ones that are just getting in the way. And I'm oversimplifying a very complicated process that happens inside of us. All that being said is we can train ourselves to become more aware of our thoughts and then become more skilled at working with our thoughts. And to oversimplify, it's unproductive and nonproductive. To your point that like that seems like a nice problem to have that you're thinking about success yeah if you think that

that's a problem now it's unproductive yeah i've never thought of it that way and if you think a great thought is really a negative thought it's really negative it's really actually it's like yeah um daniel man you all right bro trust me you all right which everybody thought like you It's really, actually, it's like a dream within a dream. Yeah. Daniel, man, you all right, bro. Trust me. You all right. I wish everybody felt like you. Man, I'm winning too much. I just think about winning, man.

That's got to be a problem. That's so good. We are complicated. Like at some point, it's like golfers are going to hate when I say this right now. But when a golfer comes to me and they're like, hey, can you help me with the golf game? I say, yeah, what's going on? And they'll say, you know, I'm just overthinking. I say, tequila.

That's all you need, tequila. And so we overthink so much to try to protect ourselves and save ourselves. But really just when you have this ability to say, I'm okay and it's okay and i'll figure out the future however this moment unfolds dr mike that's your question yeah you just made me think of something when you said tequila i had you okay you had me at tequila um you know when i used to listen to rappers talk about how they get high before they go into the studio you know have a session because it relaxes them, opens up their mind and things of that nature. And I know that drugs and alcohol obviously, you know, reduce your inhibitions and relax you and whatnot. But there's some truth to the more relaxed you are, things just start to happen and you don't, because overthinking obviously in Daniel's case can be a detriment.

We know with great predictive value that under duress or stress, when you interpret something to be dangerous, there's a very predictable thing that takes place. Fight, flight, freeze, submit mechanisms that take place. But what ends up happening cognitively is we narrow our attention. So we're scanning for the barrel of the gun. We're scanning for like to figure out if the bear is coming or not so we narrow our attention to one thing and in a creative session you want to widen you want to have you want to be able to have range and explore and as opposed to just stay locked in on one thing so a hundred percent knowing how to work with your internal arousal. That's the technical term,

how to work with your arousal, you know, being able to calm yourself down or whatever mechanisms you want to be able to. Someone said this to me the other day about parenting. Look, you're going to screw up your kids. And I was kind of nodding. And I have one, just to be clear. And the thought was that, but you don't want to screw them up in a way that they have to turn to external mechanisms to know how to relax yeah like you're going to screw them up but hopefully you screw them up in just the just enough that they they can figure out how to go do psychology they could go figure out how to work from the inside out yeah i was like oh that's a cool thought like a sensitive screw-up yeah right right i'm messing you up in a sensitive way you should be thanking me yeah um yeah that's a that's a really thank you daniel you thank you got me doing some thinking i gotta relax um all right next question from caroline really simple is there a dark side to consistently wanting to

improve yourself that's a good question yeah yeah yes um at the extreme level for sure there's the tension between um i need to do something i need to be better to be okay versus the the other side of it is like i'm okay here with who i am with exactly how i'm engaging with the world with this moment. So that tension between being and needing to improve, there is a dark side just in the construct. And I haven't squared it completely. And I haven't heard many people that have squared this. I do think that the teaching of many of the world religions do address this without squaring exactly what we're saying. And if there's some passages in whatever spiritual framework somebody has that squares this,

I'd love to read them. So please send them our way. But this idea between being completely okay with yourself and knowing that there is more that you can grow into, that you can become, That tension can become problematic when it's obsessive, when it costs you from being here because you're chronically thinking about not being good enough later. And so you're smiling.

No, I mean, that's the problem I deal with. I didn't want you to see it. I didn't say that. You be a thug, don't show the emotion. Not in front of Dr. Mike. Not in front of Dr. Mike. Not in front of Dr. Mike. No, I bet that. Listen, we know each other now. I know, man.

It's a safe space. I just gotta let go. Yeah, right. I just gotta let go. I just gotta let go. Isn't it nice to let go though? It is. You happen to draw it out of me.

Yeah, right. Is that right? Yeah, yeah, for sure. Especially, yeah, you draw it out of me. And there's another variable, which is when you, that the thief of joy is comparison. That idea that when I see somebody else and I look at that, so this can go two ways.

So self-efficacy is the sense, efficacy is a fancy word for feeling powerful. I was just about to ask you what that was. You can tell by my face. You know it. I was like, efficacy, but don't let him see you don't know what it means. Yeah. One of the five ways to increase self-efficacy

is to observe somebody else's actions and behaviors and say to yourself, like, I think I can get that done. I can see that that's possible for me. And it can cut both ways though, because if you're looking at someone else and you're using this judo inside of you to say, I could, that looks reasonable to me, that can build your sense of self-power. Also thinking about this in the terms of confidence, it can build a sense of confidence.

But when you look out, this is the danger of looking out to see if you're okay. When you look out and you're like, ooh, I don't know. And maybe it's because they have a bigger watch, a bigger car, bigger, whatever, you know, and you're like, Oh man, I don't know. And that comparison can also cut the other way. So I'm not a fan of looking to others to see if I can do that thing or not. It's much more interesting to me to use my own imagination, to think about the next natural steps. And I was brought in by a gaming company, and he says, look, we are running up the stairs of business growth, we're running.

He goes, I think that the psychology and the psychology of excellence that you're talking about might allow us to jump like three steps at a time instead of like, bang, bang, bang, bang, like taking big leaps and so i do think that that is probably accurate that when you use your own imagination you use your own psychology to the best its ability that you don't have to run step by step by step by step there are moments where you can take three or four at a time and so if you think about doing stairs

as a fitness yeah so anyways mixing analogies all over the place. No, no, I mean, that makes total sense. And the irony of it all, Dr. Mike, is when there's a level that I've been trying to achieve, that I've been longing to achieve, and when I finally get there, the jubilation just lasts for a couple minutes. And then I'm like, what's next?

And then on and on. So I get the living life examples that no matter if I end up ruling the earth, that's a bad example. That's a big one. I'll probably be like, now what's after the earth? I got to rule another planet. Like there'll never be, it'll never be enough. So, you know, yeah.

That's that counter rotation to somehow practicing being here now. Somehow in your life, practice being completely absorbed in this moment. And that becomes a massive unlock for joy and happiness and performance and wisdom and insight. But if you don't practice it, you will not ever become skilled at it.

And the world is ripping you forward, ripping us forward. And so there's an athlete that I spent time with. He won three championships in the NBA and was a solid contributor to the team. So he was really good. And we had done a lot of good work. And one of the things at the end, he says, just kind of tongue in cheek,

and he says, you know, I just, basically all this work, I just got to catch a case of the fuck-its. And when I heard that, and it was, I've heard that phrase before, but the way he said it and the purity of it, I go, yeah, right? Like, fuck it. Like, what do I care so much was it i've heard that phrase before but the way he said it and the the purity of it i go yeah right like fuck it like what do i care so much about whether that's going to happen or not

am i okay if it does if it doesn't happen am i okay if it does happen what happens when people are booing me or talking shit about me in media this is these these were his things right and he was a controversial player um and just right on like he was a little bit of a scapegoat too you know so i don't know i i think that when you hear that catch a case of the fuck it's this is not like everything like fuck everything burn burn the thing down yeah that's not what this is yeah right but this is like to very specific things that are holding you back. Fuck it. Like, why am I caring so much?

And it's the essence of the book, actually. You know, FOPO is that. So when you hear that, catch a case of the fuck, it's... What do I think? Yeah. I mean, I do agree with you. I think you have to be selective with what you're applying the case of the fuck it's to.

But you know that obviously it's easier said than done and one has to have extreme confidence in oneself and you have to really know yourself like really know yourself to be able to develop that and then apply it to certain situations man i've met people that have attained it in their 20s i've met people in their 50s and 60s who still haven't attained it. I don't know what unlocks that. I don't know if experiences unlock it. I'd like to think that I have that,

but there's times when I'm, you know. I love that you're bringing that up because it's not experience alone. You know, there's a family friend of ours who went through cancer, really battled her ass off on it and coming through made what during it made a bunch of promises to herself and others about how she's going to be different i don't know i mean i i it sounds insensitive when i say it but i haven't seen the growth that i think she hoped for yeah that I imagined as well. So experience alone doesn't do it, even when it's the most kind of

life-threatening experiences. You have to work with the experience. And your relationship with experience, if that can be, if you can use the metaphor from Jon Kabat-Zinn to have a love affair with experience, then growth happens. So that's where I think we get that exponential growth arc. That's so crazy that you just said that because I was about to mention an experience I had that I don't like to share with people because when I say this experience,

you're gonna ask me another question that's gonna show you why I don't like to share with people. But about your friend, the person that had cancer, that, you know, I did the same thing. I got locked up in LA County for about three months, right? I was acquitted of all charges. I am not a felon. But I was accidentally locked up for three months.

And if anybody can believe that. And LA County- Wait, hold on, is this real? No, this is the truth. This is the truth. And acquitted? Yeah, yeah, 100%. Nothing on me, nothing.

No felonies or nothing that we know of. And I remember, and LA County is terrible. For folks that don't live in Los Angeles. For folks that don't live in Los Angeles, LA County is considered one of the worst jails in the United States. You can't wear fuchsia. You can't wear, I can't wear fuchsia up in there, man. You know what I'm saying? I'll be fighting every day.

But, you know, I could go through my experience and you'd think it was a movie. You'd think it was a movie. I was even extradited, right, to Detroit. It was crazy. But I remember being locked up and I was, I made promises to myself. And one of the promises was I had a dog that I did, that I didn't like walking. And my girlfriend used to like, just like curse me out all the time. Like take the dog out, take the dog out. You never want to take, his name was

daddy, rest in peace, daddy. She used to be like, you never want to take Daddy out. Take him out. And I'd be like, no, I'll take him out later. I'll take him out. And then he'd end up pooping. And then I'd get in trouble. And I remember those little things. This can't be why you landed yourself in county.

No, no, no. This can't be why. We got a warrant for O'Neal's. That's better. Dogs pooping everywhere. But I remember making all those promises to people and to myself that I was going to walk the dog. I was going to be a better person. I was going to do all that.

And the minute I got out, I went right back to my old ways. And I remember just sitting with myself. Was that experience not enough to jar me? Why am I reverting back to this? Why am I not fixing this and fulfilling all the promises that I made to myself and to jar me? Why am I reverting back to this? Why am I not fixing this and fulfilling all the promises that I made to myself and to other people? I think it has to do with like, so I'll, I'll like, I'll ask my son a series of questions about something. And I know that he's just trying to get out of it. Like some, he, he didn't take the trash out or whatever, something

small. And I'm asking him question, question, question. He's just trying to get out of it. And so there's a mechanism of relief. If I could just get some relief from the condition I'm in, if, and you're making promises, this is also shows up in the five stages of grief by Kubler-Ross, Dr. Kubler-Ross, that there's this bargaining phase when we go through something heavy and it's like, oh God, if, God, if I can pull through this or my loved one can pull through this, I'll go to church every day, right? Okay. And so, but so that the bargaining is actually for relief.

Yeah. And that's not what it takes to make the change. So relief is like, I just wanna get out of this discomfort. But when you square up with something and you're like, this discomfort and pain is not necessary for me. And because I'm experiencing this and I can see what I need to do to be able to change it, I'm going to change it. It's like a different squaring up with it. And so one is like this promise, but it feels empty and hollow. It's a little bit like an apology for many people.

I say, oh, I'm so sorry. But they don't really go to that next gear, which is, oh my God, I caused that pain for you. I'm gonna make a promise to you. I'm never gonna do this again. And when somebody goes to that level on apology, you look at, you feel it, you look at them, and you're like, okay, got you. Thank you.

You understand. And so then the repair takes place. Same with self. When you really square up with it, not, I'm not saying just because you're scared about something, but you re and this is how people change. Pain is the reason people change. Uncomfortableness is how we grow. So the greatest thing we can do as a friend for other people is to help them feel that suffering and pain, not take it away so they can square up with it and make a decision that

this is how I'm going to move forward in my life. And to make those changes, I need to embrace being uncomfortable because the old habits, the old ways of behaving, they, you know, they're not serving me properly. So squaring up with the pain and suffering is like a real deal. Okay, quick pause here to share some of the sponsors of this conversation. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentous. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday.

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for 35% off your first subscription order. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Felix Grey. I spent a lot of time thinking about how we can create the conditions for high performance. How do we protect our ability to focus, to recover, to be present? And one of the biggest challenges we face today is our sheer amount of screen time. It messes with our sleep, our clarity, even our mood. And that's why I've been using Felix Gray glasses. What I appreciate most about Felix Gray is that they're just not another wellness product. They're rooted in real science developed alongside leading researchers and ophthalmologists. They've demonstrated these

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You're getting stuff out of me. Well, not really. Oh, I didn't tell you why. Yeah, no, not really. We'll talk about that in another episode. But again, I've been fully acquitted. I'm just kidding. All right. Next question just kidding. All right.

Next question from Alan. Amazing podcast. Every single podcast carries a nugget that I embrace and bring into my life. As somebody that prides himself on being optimistic and grateful, there is an underlying negative soundtrack that has developed since the onset of COVID that has impacted my sleep performance and relationships i can shake it when i think about pushing the thoughts out of my head but somehow these thoughts always creep back in and if they're not handled they tend to take center stage i love to push these thoughts out for good but don't have a good strategy to do it there's a lot in here, again. So these are complicated. I love our community. They really think about things and they bring like an honesty to what they're trying to

sort out. When you read that, pick one of the themes that is jumping out at you and we'll just start there. At first when I was reading this, I was like, okay, well, I mean, you know, certain practices can help you have, you know, positive thoughts and whatnot. But he's saying since the onset of COVID, it's impacted his sleep and his performance and his relationships. My question about that is, is he saying that since he's had COVID, now these negative thoughts have become more prevalent through, you know, not getting sleep and all these other things. And that's where I was going as well.

Yeah. Sleep is so foundational. So I don't know. I mean, maybe it's worth taking a little detour on sleep. I don't, I mean, it doesn't answer this question directly, but sleep is so foundational for us that I can beat my ass off to do my very best, to give myself a chance to get the quality and quantity of sleep that I need to be at my best.

Like, how are you dealing with sleep? Sometimes I sleep well, sometimes I sleep terribly. And so have you figured out what some of the inputs are for the inconsistent outputs? I have no idea. None whatsoever. I try to listen to podcasts sometimes. I try to drink tea at night. Non-caffeinated, of course. Non-caffeinated, of course. I hope it's non-caffeinated.

Check that. Thank you for saying that. Yeah. No, really? Sometimes you're just- Sometimes I'll just drink some tea and then be like, I can't sleep. It takes like eight to 12 hours

to get caffeine out of your bloodstream. Does it? Really? Yeah. Gosh, my goodness. I'm pretty sure it's non-caffeinated. I hope. No, I've tried listening to music.

I don't know, but I agree with you. That's why I asked about this, about the whole COVID thing and the impact of sleep. Because when I don't sleep, I'm absolutely miserable. Yeah. So do you, are you like right on the bed of nails that if you just get a little bit of extra pressure, it's a problem? Meaning that if you one night of poor sleep, it's not good? Or do you have enough of a reserve in your system that you can withstand one, two, three nights of poor sleep and still be okay? you know i i thought i had enough of a reserve to be able to do that but the more i'm in tune with myself the more i pay attention to my performance and how i act with people and my my personality when i don't get sleep i need

a full night's worth of sleep yeah and so okay so let's just think about we'll double click here for a minute that there's quantity and quality so most brains across the planet need between seven and nine hours that's where the number eight comes in and and this is independent of region of the world and independent of function of lifestyle eight hours seems to be where the number hubs and so do you know your exact number are using any technology to track it um i mean i just i just count the times i go to sleep yeah so yeah yeah so you're not exactly sure so this is where technology has paid dividends for folks or i use an aura ring yeah um i'm also an investor there so it's like i there's a bias and when i say that i like what they're doing so much so that i put my

money on it that being said is that there's plenty of other tech that are helping, you know, quality and quantity. And so quantity, if you, if you had to pick the two, I'm more interested in quality than quantity. I'm in a phase right now in my life that I'm getting poor deep sleep and poor REM sleep. And, but I'm getting the, the right amount of sleep. And so that's actually tricky to unpack. And yeah, it's, yeah. So is it related to COVID? No, mine's not. It's, I don't know what's going on actually, but I'm trying to figure it out myself.

So I, you know, I mean, what's this got to do with COVID? Maybe it kicked up some anxiety, maybe it kicked up some health issues. I don't know. But sleep is foundational for being one's best. My point here is that I'm competing my ass off to get the right quality, quantity, and I'll add a C to the mix. It sounds like a Q, but quality, quantity, and consistency. So I want to sleep in on Saturday and Sunday,

but I wake up at the same time to try to keep my circadian rhythm consistent. And when you do that, your brain becomes more familiar with the amount of sleep that it's working on. And so consistency is another variable that's really important, even though I want to get an extra hour in.

So I have a question. What's the major difference between sleep and just meditating and relaxing like laying on the couch putting on some jazz music or classical music opening the window that the cool breeze hits you and closing your eyes but you're not sleeping but you're just in complete relaxation well there's um let's go deep sleep let's go rem sleep, light sleep, different phases of sleep. And you can correlate that as well with types of brainwaves. So deep sleep is connected with delta brainwaves. And theta brainwaves are lighter sleep. It's like that phase right between I'm about to fall asleep. And it also looks like the vibes or the brain

waves that take place when you're watching TV and just kind of not really interested and kind of in that numb space. High theta is also associated with creativity and with ADHD or ADD, I should say. So theta brainwaves, delta brainwaves, and then you've got an alpha brainwave. And alpha brainwaves are just this easy cruise control focus. Beta is a high focus. So when you really have to be on, when you're grappling on the mat or you're doing something intense, even in this conversation, we have all of the brainwaves, but we should have more beta in our brains right now than anything else. So when you're laying down to take a nap, what you're trying to

do is quiet the beta, which is that thinking brain, get into some alpha, which is a cruise control and just kind of easy. It's a low cost brainwave when you've got a lot of alpha going on. Even lower cost is theta. And so if you can get into alpha, you've got a chance to slip into theta. And theta is like, it feels like you closed your eyes and you took a nap, but you didn't fall all the way asleep. And so if you fall all the way to sleep and you're down into REM or deep sleep, it could cause problems later because your brain goes, wait, I got some REM sleep. And like in your eight hours, let's say your eight hours of sleep, I already got my REM sleep. I don't need to go to that place anymore. I already got my deep sleep. I don't need to go there. So I liked the science is pretty interesting. It's

somewhere around less than 30 minutes for most people. That 30 minute mark is a bit of a threshold to slip into that deep sleep versus staying light on a nap. So I keep my naps if I'm afforded one, which I haven't taken naps since I was like six, but that's a different story, is that, or on my vacation, but the, if I can, if I, I'm a proponent for naps. Like I wish I could get a 25 minute nap in on a regular basis. So, but I don't, I won't go past 30. So if you can do that and you've got the jazz on or whatever you're doing, lights are down and you're just breathing and relaxing, maybe you're going to slip into that alpha. If you can get into that theta, um, and it's, it's a, it's a restorative type of nap. And so you wake up like, okay, cool.

If you get down into that deep sleep, when you come out of it, you might feel groggy because you got down into that deep sleep and it's like, oh man, what am I? Oh, I'm so tired. But really you're just coming out of that deep phase. So if you can keep it to 30 minutes to oversimplify it, I think it's a win. Okay. So I've just two more questions on that. So with that being said, it's, it's, it's reasonable to think that his negative thoughts, all these things that he's going through are just being intensified through the lack of sleep. Yeah. I mean, they go hand in hand. Yeah. So when you don't have your resources in place, meaning your sleep and your nutrition and your compelling future, that is like exciting. If like, let me not add that last one let's just do restoration if

you're sleeping nutrition and your body is aching because you're not moving you're over training or not training enough you're not doing any mobility whatever your system is hurting in that way then yeah it would make sense that um you would feel anxious and irritated and agitated and the thoughts you know are intimately related to our physiology so okay yeah so my last question is this and tell me if i'm reaching too far out i don't know i'm here with this but isn't there some study out there that's saying that we're lacking sleep also because of social media because of our phones and having them well some of us yeah meaning the i mean wearing a white t-shirt you know some of us, meaning the person wearing a white t-shirt, you know?

Some of us, meaning the person I'm looking at. I'm talking about myself. You're not sleeping with the phone in your bed anymore. Right? Huh? We're doing better. Huh? Yeah.

We're not doing better. What? Yeah. Oh my God. You gotta get the phone out of the bed. No, man, no. I call myself- This is our 13th AMA.

I know. Right? This is like AMA one where you're like, yeah, I sleep with my phone under my pillow. Yeah. You're not- Well, okay, so technically speaking, I've made progress,

because it's not under my pillow anymore, right? Where is it? It's on the stand next to- All right, we're doing better. So I'm pushing it way farther than I can. Yeah right we're doing better yeah we're doing better yeah we're doing better it's a strange thing dr mike i don't know sometimes i wake up in the middle of the night three in the morning and i'll reach for my phone and what will you do with your nothing i'll just look at it but okay man i even get up to use the bathroom and for some reason i grabbed my phone i'm like what is the bathroom

drop it on the number one this thing is possessed what i have is in my hand my precious yeah right yeah it's sick yeah uh we're overmatched there's hundreds or thousands of phds working on that technology to manipulate our brains yeah and you know it's like we're fighting a thousand phds in psychology and neurobiology. So I should technically tell people that if they say I'm on my phone too much, I'm fighting a thousand PhDs. You try doing this, man. Yeah, right. So, I mean, if you can, I don't do this, but best practice is your phone out of the room.

Yeah. And I'm really interested in EMFs right now, electromagnet frequencies and the potential risk to health yeah and again i invested in a company called lambs which i'll get you some gear you probably need it lambs is helping with uh it's a clothing technology that is helping reduce the negative impacts of emf so it looks like a nice little shirt just like what i'm wearing um but it's got a lining inside of it that blocks EMF frequencies from going in. They've got, they've got a hoodie, they've got, uh, hats, beanies, t-shirts, uh, underwear. Yeah. And so, so anyways, I, I actually keep a bit of a, a lambs, um, uh, it's a, uh, I'm sorry. It's a lambs. Um,

hold on. I'm going to say this? I've taken a lamb's shirt and put it on my nightstand. And so that sounds a little janky, but it's actually- No, no, no, I'm going to use the whole lamb's bodysuit. Yeah, right. Yeah, bodysuit. Let's go back to Alan. It's hard to just read this and not know if Alan is really struggling. And so this is maybe for you, Alan, but this is for anyone that vibed with that question. There is a great opportunity right now across certainly the United States, but across the planet to spend time with people that all they've done is dedicate their professional efforts to understand psychology, to understand how to help people through hard times, to best practices,

to study yourself better. And that's what I think of psychology. It's the study of self, and you're doing it with a master. You're doing it with somebody who says, listen, I'm clearing my table. I'm spending the next 90 minutes, 45 minutes, whatever the length of the conversation is to focus on your wellness, on you being your very best. And I'm clearing the tables. You got me. All I've studied in my life is the psychology of wellbeing. I'm here for you. And so this is a public service announcement to say, go to therapy, go invest in a professional way. And there's ranges of costs. Some are free. There's a free clinic here in the beach cities. And there's also very expensive psychologists. Find the resource

that fits you well and invest. And there's also hotlines. And that's one of the ways that we can, we'll put, we'll put some of the in the show notes, we'll put some of the hotlines in there and free services that you can call. There's like crisis centers all the way to like, I just need to talk to somebody. And I think one of the greatest investments that you can make is to invest in yourself so that you can be there in a loving way for other people to help them as well. And now one final word from our sponsors. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down.

And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day. And Cozy Earth has become a new part of that. Their bedding, it's incredibly soft, like next level soft. And what surprised me the most is how much it actually helps regulate temperature. I tend to run warm at night and these sheets have helped me sleep cooler

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which tells me, tells you, that they believe in the long-term value of what they're creating. If you're ready to upgrade your rest and turn your bed into a better recovery zone, use the code FINDINGMASTERY for 40% off at CozyEarth.com. That's a great discount for our community. Again, the code is FINDINGMASTERY for 40% off at CozyEarth.com. FINDINGMASTERY is brought to you by Caldera Lab. I believe that the way we do small things in life is how we do all things. And for me, that includes how I take care of my body. I've been using Caldera Lab for years now. And what keeps me coming back, it's really simple.

Their products are simple and they reflect the kind of intentional living that I want to build into every part of my day. And they make my morning routine really easy. They've got some great new products I think you'll be interested in. A shampoo, conditioner, and a hair serum. With Caldera Lab, it's not about adding more. It's about choosing better. And when your day demands clarity and energy and presence, the way you prepare for it matters. If you're looking for high quality personal care products

that elevate your routine without complicating it, I'd love for you to check them out. Head to calderalab.com slash finding mastery and use the code finding mastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash finding mastery. And with that, let's jump right back into this conversation. Awesome. So next question is from Ezra. Hey, Mike, I've been a consumer of your content for

several years now. I just want to quickly thank you for all the wisdom I've absorbed through your podcast and through various interviews, lectures, videos, et cetera, that I have come across over time. Thank you. I just signed a letter of intent to play college basketball next fall as a freshman. As I grow and improve, I realize there is something missing in my overall performance. I'll sometimes find myself lacking a presence on court. There is an identity and excitement that certain players exude. Part of me thinks that this is a quality that can be

trained and cultivated. And part of me thinks that this is just an it factor and that the best players just show up like this. Have you seen this on the football field? What comes to mind when thinking about how to bring this out of someone? This is basketball, right? Yeah. Yeah. It did. The sport doesn't matter. I mean, I hear this and I know exactly that feeling. I was that kid when I was younger and I thought the same way they have the it factor. I don't know like how to bring it. It's so it's such bullshit. It's like somewhere your parents and your coaches have really let, they let me down in this way. And it's, I didn't have, I didn't have the trauma of other people, you know, verbally abusing me or like, I didn't have any of that and they supported

me, but they didn't teach me the mechanics of how to think well, to be fully present. The it factor is just walking into a room fully present. That's all it is. And it's so rare when you see somebody that walks in and they're fully present and they know, they have this deep knowing that I love the unfolding part of life. And I can't wait to see how this conversation goes. I can't wait to see how this game is going to go. And I can't wait to see how whatever is going to unfold because they know they have this deep understanding that however it's going to go, I'm going to do my best. And like, we're just going to try to figure it out. And I don't need to have the external or the experience to go a certain way to be okay.

There's a deep it factor when people are fully present. But what gets me fired up is that there's generations of this lack of understanding of how to be fully present that shows up like this. What was his name again? Ezra. Ezra probably has dedicated thousands of hours to be technically skilled at basketball and very little amount of time in how to be mentally present, to be mentally confident, to be whatever fill in the blanks from a psychological state. It's really frustrating because it's not that complicated. And so what's the way through this for Ezra is no, that is not

a genetic predisposition to have the it factor. You develop it. You develop it by all the psychological skills and all the practices that you do to know how to be fully present, independent of the conditions, independent of the environment. And when you can do that, you have freedom. You are no longer whipped around by the external world. You know how to stand in your body and be fully present with any moment. You know how to meet the demands of a moment because you have the psychological skills to pivot and adjust and then pivot and adjust and pivot and adjust again.

And let me be very concrete, Ezra, go invest in how you speak to yourself. Become aware of that language of what you're speaking to yourself. So get a meditation or mindfulness practice, speak to yourself in a way where you back yourself, like in an unreasonable way, back yourself, speak to yourself that way.

Know how to breathe to bring your arousal level, your activation levels down when you walk into an environment that has heat, that has like an intensity about it. Know how to breathe to back yourself down from that high intensity moment. If you just started with those three, you intensity about it. Know how to breathe to back yourself down from that high intensity moment. If you just started with those three, you're on it. You're definitely on it.

And there's so much more that you can do. So look, I gotta get off my pedestal here because I wish I would've had this stuff younger. I had to go to the lengths to really understand it. And it's not that flipping complicated. We just have tabooed this idea of psychology to the place that highly skilled, young, talented people are like, is it genetic? Yeah. No, it's not genetic at all. Damn Ezra, you got Dr. Mike hype.

I don't think I've ever seen you this hype before. Well, I see myself in Ezra. Yeah. You know, you made me think of something about when you said, you know, the people around you, your coaches and whatnot, you know, to some degree didn't come through in some way. I heard an NBA player talk about Steph Curry and he was saying that, you know, coaches can make or ruin players. And he said, the only difference between Steph Curry and other guys who aren't pulling up from half court is that Steph Curry had the green light as a kid. His coaches allowed him to come down and shoot from half court all the time. So he grew up, that's what he knows, right? So his confidence level is on a thousand when doing that, as opposed to him saying that he's been to games where a guy will shoot a three and then the coach will pull him out. And then that would happen over and over again.

And after a while, their confidence level dropped so much that he started breaking threes or he wouldn't shoot at all and just developed some thing in his head. Oh, I mean, in the United States, the sophistication of coaches, there's a lot of power that a coach has of influence, of understanding how to strain and have fun. And there's a lot of influence and power that coaches have. And the level of sophistication is really low. Like in the Canadian system to be a youth coach, there's actually steps and credentials that you would take that, that at least an institution that says, yes, you know some basics here. Go help our kids. In the United States, we're hurting here. So my son is playing volleyball and I was at an event the other day

and it was like this camp. And I heard a coach say to a kid, they had the kids just break up into fives. And I think there was probably like 26 kids. Okay. So obviously one kid's going to have six and now it was a five on five drill, even though indoor basketball or indoor volleyball, six on six. And so break up into fives. And so then this one kid looks around and I know this kid and he looks around, he's like, Oh, where do I go? And the coach said, it was very slight. And the coach said, oh, go back up that group. And I thought, I thought if I could whisper in that kid's ear right now, because I saw him dejected, like, oh, yeah, I guess I don't really have a spot here.

If I could have whispered in his ear, you're not a fucking backup. You're no backup. Go take your moment. Go take your shot. shot like go get in there and be big like you're not a fucking backup to anybody go be you yeah and the kid just struggled like he didn't know how to get in he didn't like he didn't fit in from the get and it was the way the coach framed it if the coach would have said something just slightly different which is like hey pick any team you want.

Go get your thing. That's very true. That's so true. Right? So like my point is these small little innocuous, seemingly innocuous statements that people can make to you like, oh, man, fuchsias. You shouldn't be wearing fuchsia nail polish. Like that says something about you. And then you do something with it.

And then you do something with it yeah and then you do something with that yeah you know um or you're like yeah you know think what you want like i'm getting mine like i like it yeah do you have any of those experiences mom i love you i'm about to say this um yeah you it made me think of my mom she's a jamaican mother and she doesn't she didn't know any better and her rearing of me was just something that she was taught prior to me existing. Right. So, you know,

I remember being at the table. Oh, that's a cool thought though. Before you tell the story, her rearing of me was taught to her before I even existed. That's a really cool thought. Y'all got that. That's a real t-shirt. That's a really cool thought. Thank'all got that? That's a really cool thought.

Thank you, Dr. Mike. That's right, you know something every now and then, but you just brought back a memory from my childhood that I probably blocked out. Now I remember being at the dinner table and her helping me with my times tables. And mom, this is gonna sound terrible. She didn't call me stupid, but this might be worse.

She'd sit next to me and I'd be doing the work. I'm petrified, right? Cause I don't wanna get in trouble. And she'd be like, four times four is what? And I'd be like, 11, four times four is what? You're like, four times four is what? Yeah, right, yeah. And after about the fourth time she yelled at me,

I'm just like, just fall over the ground.'m just like whatever because it does short circuit us yes right that level of intensity yeah and i equated um uh mathematics with it with fear so as a result i was horrible at math all the way to i went to I went to Michigan State, I had like, I think high school level math. I just, it almost stopped me from graduating. You chose green and white, huh? Yeah. Yeah.

Okay, good. So did you, you said you almost stopped graduating. Was that high school or college? It was college. It's almost, I almost didn't graduate from college because I just skipped the requirements. Stats or math or something. And then I took statistics in the summertime to graduate.

But it affected me from that because I just hated math. And I was like, why do I hate math so much? But it was because of all those years of being little and being intimidated by my mom. Like, you only got one more time. Don't get it wrong. You know? And I'm like, ugh. Yeah, right.

Yeah. And we've all got those stories. And this is not about the love of our parents. This is about the way that we experience, quote unquote, micro traumas or traumas that shape us. And it's born out of a way. Our body is supposed to do that, by the way. We're supposed to tighten up. We're supposed to have an experience when something is scary or intense for survival.

And what it does is it's preparing us to be better matched if that thing were to happen again. And so PTSD or PTS is the military is starting to reframe it, post-traumatic stress. It's not so much that it's a disorder. It's an actual biologically appropriate response to something that's heavy. And the disorder, to not complicate this, I think, the disorder is that we reorganize our life to not be traumatized again. That's the disorder because we're no longer fluid in life. We're avoiding the specific curves on a freeway because we experienced a car crash there. We smell a perfume that reminded us of a heartbreak so we get agitated and we don't want to be around perfume anymore like so i'm

making examples up so but post-traumatic stress is supposed to um we're supposed to respond in a healthy way which is to prepare us to meet that demand better next time so we're not caught off guard it's the disorder is actually the reorganization to avoid re-traumatization to prepare us to meet that demand better next time. So we're not caught off guard. It's the disorder is actually the reorganization to avoid re-traumatization. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I definitely reorganized when it came to math. Yeah, right, yeah, I know.

So Ezra, man, go get it, man. You are right, Ezra, go get it. So how did you compensate though for the math? Like what did you do? I avoided it and then almost didn't graduate. No, but how did you, so that's the, how did you counter rotate the compensation? So did you find yourself moving into like the arts

or some other way? Oh, the arts, 100%, the arts, 100%, 100%. Ran straight to it, ran straight to it. I don't think it was a bad thing, but I definitely know that I avoided math for those reasons. But yeah, the arts and writing, you know. Yeah, that's cool. Yeah. All right, cool. Finding Mastery is brought to you by iRestore. When it comes to my health, I try to approach things with a proactive mindset. It's not about avoiding poor health. This is about creating the

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That's Lisa L E E S a.com. The promo code is finding mastery for 25% off and then plus an extra $50 on us because quality sleep is just too important to leave to chance. All right. Next question is from Colette. I've taken a new job, but I'm a little over a year into it right now. I have a larger responsibility. As a result, I get a lot more emails and issues to respond to.

Love the job, but hate the feeling of never being caught up. And I have a guilty feeling, as I know there's a part of my job that I've not tackled because I've been dealing with fires. I try to set aside time on weekends to catch up, but I'm mentally exhausted. It feels like I need to take some steps back and reevaluate how I spend my time, but I don't know how. Do you have any advice? Thanks for all you do. I've been listening since 2017 and appreciate you. Very cool. All right. I think that question is about the guilt, right? The guilt she feels by not finishing the tasks that need to be done. And so guilt and shame are interesting emotions.

They are at the core of addiction. And so the AA model, and there's some research to suggest this, that guilt and shame are emotions that kind of never let us out of the loop. So they bring us back around and hit us on the head again. So it's like this hammer that cycles back up and hits us, you know, shame and guilt are that. And so I would say if there's a way through to remove or to lessen or eradicate the guilt, that's where I would square up. Like, what is the thing that you're guilty about? Where did that come from? Because it probably didn't come from the standards

or expectations of the business. It's probably some guilt, like we were talking about, that happened well before at early age about not being good enough if you're not efficient or you don't finish everything on time. So there's some other kind of identity thing likely commingled here. So what's the way through it is I think the first part of this is to recognize that I feel guilty and the guilt feeling is a small feeling. And to just go figure out, like, where did that come from? It's probably, like I said, it's probably not from the work conditions.

It's from earlier. And then if you can relieve that first, let's call it disordered way of thinking about being productive, then maybe there's a little freedom on the other side. I don't have a great answer for it. But I would say you recognize it, go to work on it. Yeah. So a question about that. So having those open tabs in your brain, like she does, right, like Colette does and feeling like, okay,

maybe I can make up for that on the weekend. Is that, could that be to her detriment trying to play catch up? Should she just let it go and just, you know, reconvene at the beginning of the week or i'm probably not the right person to answer that because i i work on the weekends i i feel like i've lined up purpose and passion pretty well so i don't i don't necessarily have i get i i do find myself fatigued towards the end of the week. But I don't know.

This could be a condition where she is working slower than maybe others are. So it could be a condition that she's anxious or depressed and working slower or just not processing it the right way and she needs that extra time. Or it could be that, I don't know, it could be a bunch of things. So I don't know. And we could make a case probably both like shut it down but then what if she's really behind yeah you know so i don't know what do you mean when you say you line the purpose

and passion very well oh in my life yeah so i think there's a trap with passion and people talk about passion in this way that like, if I could just do the thing that brings me passion, I'd live the good life. If I could play guitar more often and sing or whatever, like, but I'm, I'm a typist or I am a, you know, business executive and I, my passion is, is guitar. I think that there's a trap in that because that says that I need to do something to feel passion. And so I've reverse engineered that for myself, which is I want to have passion everywhere I go. So now it's not necessarily lining up in the most concrete way, purpose and passion. that would sound a little bit like,

if you didn't ask that I figured out how to play guitar and get paid for it. That's, that's not what I'm doing. I'm saying that I I'm working to have passion everywhere I go as to my best ability. And my purpose is very clear, which is to help people live in the present moment more often through the science and art of psychology. So I love, I love doing this work and it doesn't really feel like work. It feels like a calling or a purpose or, you know, so, and I have passion in the things that I do. So that's how that shorthand of what I said.

Gotcha. That's amazing what you think about it. I've never thought about it like that. How do you, how do you think about passion? If I can get this thing done, I'll be, if I can do this,

I'll be happy. Everything will be right with the world. Oh yeah, right. Yeah, and then when you're done with it, what happens? I need to do something else, because it's not right as I thought it was gonna be. Right, yeah. And so on and so on.

A little bit of snake eating its tail in that respect. Definitely, definitely. All right, I think we have time for one more. All right, last question from Sameer. Dear Michael, I've been listening to your podcast for the past three years. It helped me during some of the challenging phases of my life. Here's a question for you.

I have facing, I have facing, I'm really facing tough times working with a supervisor for the past few years. I am a people pleaser. It is difficult to get approval from my boss. As a result, my confidence is at an all-time low. What kind of inner dialogue can I harness to build my confidence back? I don't want to change my job due to financial constraints. Okay, Samir. Stoked you are finding the podcast to be a good resource for you.

Love that. I want to be really direct here. People-pleasing in and of itself is a nice way of going through life. It can also be incredibly toxic and phony and fake and problematic. So Samira, I want you to just take a moment and feel your way through what I'm about to say. And you already know where I'm probably going here, is that people pleasing is likely you trying to manipulate another person for you to be okay, for you to feel safe. And that's bullshit. It's not honest. One of the reasons you're having a problem with your supervisor is your way of responding to and creating this relationship.

So maybe the supervisor's a shithead. I don't know. Maybe they are absolutely toxic. But the way that you, if you know that you're people pleasing, that is because you are looking to find safety in the relationship that only they can provide you. That is unbelievably dangerous. So it's time to feel the difference between owning your own sense of self safety and not needing another person to create the conditions for you to be okay. This is one of the masks for fear of people's

opinions is people pleasing. It's a, It's a slow bleed into codependency, and it's this unbelievable outsourcing of your sense of self-esteem. So you are giving power to another person because if you can manipulate the situation just right and they're happy with you, then you're okay. But what if they're not happy with you? What if they look at you cockeyed? What if they're fatigued? What if they're tired? What if they're a jerk? What if, what if, what if? That you're on the other side of that. And it's like they're walking on eggshells because they don't know if they can get the truth out of you. You're walking on eggshells because you're trying to manipulate other people. This is exhaustive. This likely stems from a trauma. This likely stems from

not knowing that you're okay, that you need to do something special to be okay. That's early childhood stuff. You could go unpack that if you wanted to, it would be a worthwhile investment in doing so. And you can make a decision right now. And that decision is from this point forward, no longer am I going to outsource my sense of worth and value and esteem. And I'm going to take that power back and I'm not going to play with those toys anymore. I am not going to play with the toys that I am dependent on being just right for me to be okay. So if you take a moment and you think about where do you find your value? And if you've outsourced it, you now have to find different ways of finding value

that is going within that's facing the dragon, it's doing the inner work to say, I matter because I breathe. I matter because I'm working on A, B, and C. In life, there's a purpose to what I'm doing and I've got a certain set of values that I'm gonna abide by. And if you can be clear with your purpose,

you can know that you've got a value structure that you're working from, you can say hello and goodbye to the old demon that has gotten in your way. And no longer are you going to be trying to manipulate relationships for you to be okay. I'm exhausted by people that are people pleasing. I'm exhausted by that. So I'm fired up about this again because I can't trust you. You're not bringing the real shit.

And I can feel that you are just going to say, yes, yes, yes, yes. Try to present a picture that is favorable, but there's no, I can't rely on the truth of it. So I can only go so far with you. And so Samir, if, if your feel that is hitting a chord for you, awesome. Great. Feel the agitation in this, be pissed off at me, that's fine. But make a commitment to yourself to create the change where you are no longer beholden to a sense of dignity and value to what the other person may or may not say. And so I'm fatigued on the other side of it. And I understand codependency. I understand people-pleasing. It's born out of a fear of what another person might think of me. And then I conform, I contort, I do these manipulative things so that I'll be okay.

It's bullshit. And it's not going to take you to the place you want to be. Is Samir saying, because at the end, he's like, I don't want to change my job due to financial constraints. You don't have to change my job due to financial constraints you don't have to change your job yeah yeah like great like you do not have to change your job here you just don't have to depend on somebody else smiling and being okay with you for you to be okay yeah how about instead of investing in people pleasing invest in high quality work how about investing in being kind and honest? How about investing in thinking about like what other people could benefit from your help as opposed to like needing them to be okay with you? So I don't think you need to change jobs. Is this question masked in fear, meaning, because he worded it like, I don't want to change my job due to financial constraints, but it almost reads to me, and I could be dead

wrong here, but it almost reads to me that he feels as though if he doesn't remain a people pleaser with this particular job and this particular person that he might get fired or might get let go or that's is that what he's yeah there's i think that the whole thing is shrouded in fear yeah right fear of what the person's going to think of me if i'm not pleasing and then fear of if i assert myself a certain way that i'm going to lose my job and i don't i'm not sure exactly the whole thing is basically an anxious framework. No problem. It's really not a problem. And I'll use an executive at a multinational. So this is a seven-figure salary, very influential person into big tech. And she took a deep dive.

We're doing some work across this company. And she took a deep dive into her personal philosophy. And so personal philosophy is quite simple. It's your first principles in life. And once you become clear about your first principles in life, and then you look at how you're actually engaging in life, and there's dissonance between those two. She had that big dissonance and she said, oh shit, these are my first principles, but at work,

I can't, I'm not being that person. So she pulled me aside afterwards and she said, what do I do? I said, I don't know. I don't know what's right for you, but you've got a decision to make. Go to work tomorrow with dissonance and fake it. Keep your money, keep your paycheck, maybe wait for the parachute to open up and you can retire wealthy or go into work and make a commitment to be the person that you want to be and not

have the two self thing and be different later or be your authentic self later. Practice being fake for 10 hours a day and then try to find two hours or four hours to be authentic. It's bad math. But so she's like, I know what I'm going to do. And I just don't know if people can handle me here anymore. I just don't know.

Like I've been this way for a long time and I know what I'm going to do. So she called me back like a couple months after that. And she's like, I did it. It's great. My relationships are better. Like this is what people were hoping for me. I guess I didn't know it. And so that was one of the riskiest decisions I've made.

And so it might not work out that way. It might work out that you make the change and the relationship you're in, that partner doesn't like this version of you. They can't control you. They can't manipulate you. They don't like this new version, which is the authentic version. Same might be the case for your supervisor. So, you know, one of the problems that keeps drunks drunk or addicts addicts is that their

partners like them that way yeah that's what codependency is so as long as you're messy it gives me a job to help clean up and that's the dance between the codependent and the addict and so it's weird very weird it's you know and the the codependents are like why would i choose this i wouldn't choose this what are you talking about no i love this person i'm trying to help bullshit you're keeping them drunk And the codependents are like, why would I choose this? I wouldn't choose this. What are you talking about? No, I love this person. I'm trying to help. Bullshit.

You're keeping them drunk. They're just as bad as the addicts. 100%. Codependency is a real thing. And so anyways, I get a little fired up about this as well. I feel like the holiday season has got me feeling. Got you lit. Got you ready to go. Samir, you hear that?

Go on you, Samir. Go on you, man. This is one of the reasons that the Thanksgiving tables are so charged. Because when we show up to the family or friends, like the family, they know us when we were six or nine or 12. And they sometimes treat us that way. Man, that's so true. That's so real. That is so real.

And you're on a mission to show them I'm grown. Right. I'm grown, pass me the turkey, I'm grown. They say, you didn't cook this turkey. So you're not that grown. Yeah, right, yeah. Appreciate you. I appreciate you too, Dr. Mike, thank you.

Happy Thanksgiving. Happy Thanksgiving to you as well. All right, thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Mike. Thank you. Happy Thanksgiving. Happy Thanksgiving wherever you're listening. Also, if you haven't already, please consider dropping us a review on Apple or Spotify. We are incredibly grateful for the support and feedback. If you're looking for even more insights, we have a newsletter we send out every Wednesday. Punch over to findingmastery.com slash newsletter to sign up.

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