Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - How to Master Your Memory | 5x Memory Champion Nelson Dellis

Episode Date: December 28, 2022

The Grandmaster of Memory, Nelson Dellis, details why memory is an important skill to hone in on, and how to do just that.More on Nelson:This week’s conversation is with Nelson Dellis, a competitive memory athlete who is widely recognized as one of the world's leading experts in the fields of memory and mental fitness.Nelson is a 5X USA Memory Champion, a Grand Master of Memory, and holds several world records for memorization – including memorizing the most decks of cards in 30 minutes (9.02 decks), the most digits in 30 minutes (907 digits), and the most names in 15 minutes (235 names). Nelson is also an accomplished mountaineer – having summited Everest in addition to many of the world’s largest peaks – and is the founder of Climb For Memory, a non profit raising awareness for Alzheimer’s research by organizing mountain climbs around the world.As many of us are focused on the habits and changes we want to implement heading into the new year, I was really excited to learn more from Nelson about how memory, well-being, and performance are related – and specifically, what we can all do to enhance our mental fitness._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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a way that makes memory fun for you that you can train. Okay, welcome back or welcome to the Finding Mastery podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Michael Gervais, and by trade and training, I am a high-performance psychologist. And today, I am really excited to welcome Nelson Delis as our guest on our last episode for 2022. Nelson is widely recognized as one of the most leading experts in the field of memory. He is a five-time USA Memory Champion. How about it? He's a grandmaster of memory and holds various world records in memorization. For example, he memorized nine decks of cards in 30 minutes. I mean, that is pretty

epic. So Nelson is also an accomplished mountaineer. He founded Climb for Memory, which is a nonprofit organization raising awareness for Alzheimer's research by organizing mountain climbs around the world. And as many of us are focused on habits and changes that we want to implement heading into the new year, I'm really excited to learn more from Nelson about how memory and well-being and performance are related, and then to drill down specifically how we can enhance our memory. What are the best practices and tactics to do so? Nelson, welcome to the show. How are you? I'm good, man. Thanks for having me, Michael. I think that many people, when they hear about memory champions like yourself or some of the memorization records that you've set, they have this fascination because they know the value

of memory and they might even be envious a little bit, but not necessarily motivated to do the work to improve their memory. So I just wanted to start with this. Why does investing in memory matter to you personally? And why do you think it would be a good investment for others as well? It's a great question to start with. I started learning about memory and memory techniques just over a decade ago. My grandmother had been suffering from Alzheimer's for quite a while

and eventually passed away from complications related. And that's kind of what's set this journey off for me. I've not really thought much about memory improvement until then, until I started witnessing kind of her mind go away and was just, it was a horrible affair for our whole family and for her. But you know, as, as a bystander, a close bystander, I was kind of fascinated in a weird way because I couldn't believe that somebody could become essentially a shell of themselves right um and it was just weird and heartbreaking and all these things all together to watch and that had a profound impact on you know what i thought about myself and the future and what's in store for me so that's kind

of what got me to obsess in a way over memory techniques now you know i didn't know anything about memory techniques so when i discovered these championships that's kind of that kind of was the hook for me i'm a very competitive guy so i needed kind of that entryway um to hook onto these techniques and to have a reason why past the the the family motivation um to really push push to get to a level that was going to be life-changing. Well, you don't have to get competitive to have life-changing experience with this. So essentially, that was my motivation, was the experience that I went through with my family, and then also kind of this competitive reason. And, you know, past that, I've also come to realize other things. This has

been a long journey of mine. And part of it is, you know, I really believe that memory is who we are at a fundamental level as a species. And to be able to really harness that skill and to be able to tap into it, of course, has affected my life and I can, you know, use it to my benefit in many situations, but it makes me feel like I'm more in tune with the universe, maybe with humanity. I don't know. It's a really deep feeling of satisfaction and fulfillment there somehow. Okay, cool. So for this conversation, I want to know how you're conceptualizing memory. Are you considering it and are we talking about the innate ability that we're born with? Or are we talking about the skill that we can enhance, a trainable skill? Yeah, I i mean we are all born with a memory or the ability to

remember things um but it isn't it's something that can be mastered and used more efficiently than we've ever really been taught um so yes there there's innate abilities, I think, that vary. But I think on average, I'd say that the average person has about the same memory abilities as the other without any mastery there. But we also have this ability to train it and to take it to another level completely. We all have this ability within us. I think we all equally can get to that level. So in a nutshell, I think we all have the same kind of abilities. It's just certain people are more in tune with that. Some have trained them like myself. But I think we all kind of have that ability there. It's just not tapped into. So if we're thinking about like a standard deviation across the population, are you entering the conversation that it's a quite narrow standard deviation that most people hover

around average when it comes to memory? And then there's some that invest in the training and then they move into the upper quadrants. Yeah. Yeah. Well, there's kind of two parts to that. One is, you know, if you're exposed to techniques, first of all, and I show you how to do some of the things. We can talk about that in this call eventually.

You would kind of open the door to abilities that you probably didn't know you could do. Right. And that'll jump you a whole other level. But then the mastery, the training will take you even further. For a lot of people, that first jump is great. And more than enough for most cases that they might need in their life. But, you know, it's hard now because in this time, this era, we have so many devices and things that we don't need to memorize things. So it's depending on the value that somebody gives to having your own memory capabilities,

you know, you may not need to go that much further because you can always have some help there. I'm of the, I use devices of course. But I also try to use my own memory before using those things or off loading it to there. So I think there's just different levels of how people might want to consider mastery of these techniques and how far you really want to go. This conversation, I'm glad we're clarifying this. So this conversation will be more about the skills and the trainable part of memory and not about unlocking the innate ability that we're born with. It is more about the trainable skills on top of whatever the working memory. Yeah. born with right it's it is more about the trainable skills on top of whatever the working memory um yeah yeah okay because all right kind of my my approach versus say other memory experts or people who teach some of these things who are memory coaches i'm all about the training uh

because i think that one of the things that's lacking and you talked about it before we started recording is that you've learned the techniques you read the book moonwalking with einstein and you were kind of jazzed about it and then that that's kind of, it didn't go anywhere, right? The motivation fell flat. Probably because, and this is often a question I get a lot is how do I apply these techniques to real life on the go situations? And it's kind of obvious in a way, but then when it comes down to it, practically, you're like, I don't know if I could do this. I might as well just put on my phone or write it down or something like that. But the training aspect will get you to a place where it will integrate better with your life. And that's a really big motivation for a lot of

people is because they want to be able to have conversations with people or to open books and read through them and not have to feel like it's a whole chore to remember those things, that it just almost happens effortlessly. And with some actual techniques, you can even take that further. Finding Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Solutions. In any high-performing environment that I've been part of, from elite teams to executive boardrooms, one thing holds true. Meaningful relationships are at the center of sustained success. And building those relationships, it takes more than effort.

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To your point about externalizing my hard drive, my memory, my working memory, or something that I want to put into long-term memory, if I don't write it down, I feel like my abilities there are challenged and so it feels like when i write it down it frees me up to process and work on other cognitive tasks or to be more emotionally available as weird as it sounds yeah if i if i have offloaded it and what i hear you saying is like well maybe you want to reconsider that if you want to get better at memory, work it as you go. And so, I don't know, do you think it's valuable to explain the difference between recall and working memory or episodic memory or perspective memory? Does that matter to you, all the different types of memory? Yeah, they definitely matter. I want to come back to one thing that you said, though. I'm not saying that you should never write things down or put them elsewhere for a moment. I do

think it's not reasonable, perhaps, to expect to remember everything. If you think about your daily life and what needs to be kind of top of mind and things that can maybe put, be put on the back burner. You know, you don't need to have everything right there always. It's actually not necessary. So I think there are some instances where you, you know, you want to be able to use technology there to help kind of free up your mind if that's a pressure to you, but also having the flexibility to kind of download things and then offload things as you need them with your

memory skills to keep them there. In terms of the different types of memory, you know, the main two kind of memories that I work with when I coach is working memory slash short-term memory. It's essentially the same thing. And then long-term memory, right? How do I keep things for the short-term or essentially how do I get stuff into my memory so that it's there for a relative short amount of time? And then how do I choose which parts of those, which items I want to keep for the longterm so that I can have it for, you know, let's say longer than a few days to forever. And those essentially are the two things that most people are concerned about. Like, why is memory so important, not just for you, but for all of us? And because you, you said something really powerful, which is like, it's the essence of who the person is so tell me more what you mean by that yeah i mean i i'm a believer that if you know

let's say you woke up tomorrow and forgot everything in your life right would you be you right some might argue yes right i would argue no um i think we are um i mean you could argue that there's like something more like indescribable about our consciousness or something but um i think ultimately we are who we are because of our some of our memories right and experiences which when we talk about your experiences it's essentially the memories that you have of those things. So without them, I mean, who are we in terms of being you, Michael, right? Me, Nelson, and that feeling what it's like to be me. I think that's, yeah, that is a phenomenal distinction

that you're bringing up is the difference between the experience and the remembering of the experience. All right. Well, let's get into the more aspirational, like what we can do now. And what are some of the strategies that you are excited for people to try and share? And this doesn't mean that they're going to get on stage and compete with you, but they're going to build a deeper base. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

And you don't have to compete to do that. Um, of course. Yeah. Yeah. Of course. You know, it's like, I would not want to compete against you. Let's just be very clear. And my whole team and my family would be like, Mike, you have no chance.

Like you have zero chance. So, um, but what are, what are some of the things, and I'm motivated to get better, but then that motivation, I don't, I say that out loud to you, Nelson, because most things that I'm motivated for, I end up sticking with it. But this one, I want to learn from you and practice them. And I want to come back to you and say, yes, I'm working it and it's awesome. But if I got this other thing that's even in my mind right now, like, are you really going to do the work?

And so, God, I can't wait to have the, you know, the tactical part of the conversation with you because I really do want to get better at memory. Yeah. Yeah. And I feel like a lot of people share that sentiment too. I think part of the hurdle people face, their enthusiasm to, to stay motivated and things like that is typically memory or memorizing something is a tedious task. Like it doesn't necessarily feel easy or comfortable,

you know, and it's, it feels like there's, it's not secure not secure right that's not a nice feeling to have a little bit of anxiety there when you are trying to hold something in your memory and you're like uh it's not as secure as as if like you said writing it down or storing it somewhere else so that's not a pleasant feeling to constantly have if you're going to go for this. So I think one of the first opening doors is to show how fun it can be, how inviting it actually can be if you do it the right way. So most people think memorizing, they think just repeating something over and over again and just looking at the information that you're memorizing and that's boring that's tedious right i mean sometimes you could be looking at something reading something

studying something that's super interesting okay but most of the time the stuff we have to remember is not that um but with memory techniques you can turn that into a much more visual um attractive personal um experience um and it's a lot more inviting. I mean, heck, that's the reason why I kept training every day is because I loved going to these places in my mind to memorize things, pointless stuff, right? But I love the experience. And at the same time, it was making me feel like I had a superpower. It was enhancing my memory, and that's an amazing feeling to have, too. I never wanted to lose that, because what? I was going to go back to being not superhuman. That felt like such a downgrade,

and it wasn't really that difficult to maintain through the practice, and here's the other thing. I'm practicing for a competition, so I'm doing the exact things that are in the competition, shuffling the cards, memorizing them, printing out random numbers, memorizing them. For everyday people, there's so many opportunities in day-to-day things to memorize. You meet people, memorize their names. You see numbers on billboards or people give you their phone numbers or you see license plates. You can try to commit those to memory. Everything around you is a potential to train or practice the techniques. So I think that's another thing too is to find a way that makes memory fun for you that you can train. I train in the way that's fun for me because I'm competing. So I use these specific events from the competition to practice and train. But let's say you love learning languages or you're fascinated by languages or you love poetry, right? Maybe that's the medium in which you train, right? You memorize poetry, right? Or you work on learning vocabulary for languages, things like that. So finding the thing that will keep you hooked,

especially when it comes to memory, I think is super important as well. Wait, hold on. That's big time. That part right there is an unlock for me, which is, okay, so if you want to get better at memory, find the thing that you actually want to do better, whether that is poetry or learning a song and the notes on a song or fill in the blank, like apply it to that. And to your point, it could be names. The thing about names is that it requires a social engagement to be able to practice it, which is unpredictable. And if it's more, if, and I'm, I am a fan of having a way to systematize or to structure the training. And then you get an instant feedback about how you're doing it, but you can create some sort of habitual systemic way to practice it,

as opposed to waiting for an opportunity to happen and then be like, wait, I'm going to do that thing. You know, it's just, I think it's really hard, but, but I think that if I can, if maybe it's for music for me and I'm playing the guitar and then, okay, so that's the one I'm going to map to right now. And then I'm going to, I'm going to practice it when there, but I'm also going to practice it when I meet people. All right. So, so let drop us right in, drop us right into some fun, fun ways to play here? Yeah. So let's start with the basics. So essentially I try to distill the whole process of memorizing anything down to three steps. And in my book, I call it C-Link-Go, just to keep it simple. So essentially the first part C is, you know, S-E-E to see something. So what does that mean? When you're looking at or receiving some data that you'd like to remember or memorize, you need to visualize it in a memorable way. That sounds obvious. But what I mean by that is to think of it in terms of some associative picture. All right. Our brain works better with pictures that are meaningful to you, to me, then typically the abstract information that it is and

essentially our brains are dealing with abstract information all the time relative to what it was designed for which was to recognize very simple patterns um you could argue that um you know the development of the brain brain versus like recent technology and writing and language and philosophy and high level, you know, thinking is relatively new. So it's not easy for us to remember stuff like that. It's quite complicated. It's abstract. But pictures, very simple visual things that we can imagine with our senses is right up our brain's alley. So if you can take the complicated thing that you're trying to memorize and turn it into that, the thing that our brain likes to munch on, that's the first step to memorizing anything.

And it sounds like a simple thing, but in certain situations, this can be something where you have to kind of develop a strategy for it. For example, memorizing numbers. You look at all these digits. Sure, they're digits. You could picture the digits, but if the number is big enough or long enough, it's just a jumble of random symbols. How do you make meaning out of that? So we have to give the numbers meaning. And so we come up, a lot of us who compete, come up with these big number systems that turn or pre-plan certain

groups of numbers into images that we learn. And whenever we see these numbers, we now think of the pictures associated with them instead of the number. And it's a shortcut to getting that C process more quick, right? So that's the first step. Once you have a picture for whatever you're memorizing or a bunch of pictures, if there's like a whole list of things you're trying to memorize, the next issue is what do you do with them? Where do they go, right? Just thinking about them might work in some cases, but it's not reliable. So we need to have a way to structure or organize those pieces of data. And so the second step is all about linking, which is essentially storage. link, attach the new thing to something that's already firmly planted in my mind. And that thing that's already firmly planted in my mind can be kind of the anchor for this new piece of information. So when I go look for that new piece of information, I know it's tied to that linked item and I can retrieve it. There's a few ways to do this. But the main kind of most powerful way to do this

is something called a memory palace, or a mind palace, if you've heard of that. In Moonwalking with Einstein, they talk about it a lot. But effectively, it's a familiar place that you know, like your house, your gym that you go to, your school, whatever. And you mentally can navigate through that space in your mind and imagine the images for the things you're memorizing strewn about that path. And as you imagine interacting those images with the places in that space, it serves as a placeholder,

kind of like it's anchoring those images to a place that you know and you can revisit. So when it comes time to revisit that or remember that list or whatever you memorized, you know you stored it in that one location, that file cabinet, let's call it. And you can walk through that same place and pick up the images that you left there. Sounds complicated. It sounds kind of more work than just say doing it the old-fashioned way but it's taking advantage of things that our brains are really good at um or optimized for and it's surprisingly easy once you do it uh and then you kind of realize oh shit this is actually um this is actually pretty smooth

like butter it's not like a very uh restrictive very restrictive thing that I'm fighting against to do this. It feels pretty natural to do it. So that's the first two steps. Sorry, go ahead. Yeah, so I just want to be clear. So the more abstract, the better. And connecting it to something abstract and emotional is even better. Do I have that right?

Well, I'm saying that the information in that we're usually trying to memorize is the abstract thing. We're trying to turn it into something that's more meaningful and visual to us personally. Okay. And, and do I have it right with the emotion, like anchor it to something that's emotional, that it's a, it it's better it's maybe better than the file cabinet unless that file cabinet is something you stub your toe on a bunch yeah so there's a emotional is part of it um also very sensory so being able to imagine uh things that are um not just like what you see in your mind um but what it might smell like, what it might feel like if you touched it, tastes like, sound like. Okay, cool. If you can add emotion to that, even better. And third, if you can even add some kind of action movement to that picture, will make it even more memorable.

Okay, cool. And then in terms of emotion, we're talking about things that are sad, happy, hilarious, gruesome, even sexual or erotic. If you can tap into those kind of emotive kind of things, that's really where we start to remember things with a lot of detail. Okay, perfect. And then the third? The third step. So see, link. And then go right so go is really about how you use that information or what you've just done with the first two steps the first two steps will get the information into your mind and then it's a matter of deciding what you want to do with it

oftentimes when we memorize something you don't know how long it's going to be there. It's kind of up to the gods or something. But with technique and practice, you now have control over something that can stay short-term, something that can stay long-term. And the go is kind of how you proceed with that process. And essentially to keep something for longer, you have to review. There's no way around this. This is just how our brains are designed. They're designed to forget over time. And if you want to keep something or tell your brain that it's important to stick there, you have to keep revisiting it. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentus. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing

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Felix Gray is offering all Finding Mastery listeners 20% off. Just head to felixgray.com and use the code findingmastery20 at checkout. Again, that's Felix Gray. You spell it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com and use the code findingmastery20 at fel at Felix gray.com for 20% off. What does that mean that our brains are designed to forget? Yeah. So back in the late 1800s, um, there was a scientist, a German scientist who, um, did some studies on this and, and came up with this term called the forgetting curve um and every human

essentially forgets relatively the same pace um and there's this curve that shows it over time you know how much information let's say you remember versus uh time and it drops off pretty quick um unless and this is what they the he discovered that if you reviewed after a certain amount of time meaning you looked over the information a few times after a certain point that curve actually didn't fall down as quickly right and then if you reviewed again after a certain time the amount that you forgot over time was less and less and less. And eventually, you know, you see this line that pretty much is similar to what you initially memorized, which is, you know, you remembered it forever, right? Most of it. And that's what we call long-term memory.

But time and time again, I mean, if you map this out for people who are not using any techniques, you'll find that it's across the board. It's very similar how we all forget at the same rate. So being concrete, how would I get better at the C part of it? Good question. I get the linking, but how do you practice the C part? So I find that as people get older it varies uh in person to person but we have kind of a wall uh up that sometimes limits us from being as creative or allowing ourselves to go certain places um that like say a child, right? That they have a much more bizarre out there imagination.

Some people have a hard time being so imaginative, which is essentially what the C-step is. It's to really come up with things that the target data reminds you of, sounds like, looks like. How can I picture it and make it emotionally charged like we were talking about or give it some action or exaggerate it or make it silly, whatever. Some people have a hard time doing that. What I encourage people to do is really it just comes down to trying to free associate with things all the time,

no matter what you're looking at. I'm not always memorizing everything, but I do look at everything around me and I'm like, oh, what would I picture there? Like, what does that remind me of? Even that question itself is powerful because it allows you to just kind of think of silly connections

that have nothing to do with the real thing, but somehow remind you or make you feel a certain way. And I think it's important to recognize those. And it's a good skill to have if you want to get good at memorizing. And then, okay, so that feels like it somehow competes with a mnemonic device, even though mnemonic devices, which maybe you can walk us through that, I've found to be very powerful and they help me remember things. But this is different.

See Link Go is different than a mnemonic device. And so yeah, please. I'd say a mnemonic device is, I mean, the definition I'd say is basically any kind of trick or technique to help you remember something. So for some, or in some cases, that C step might be enough. But I argue that a lot of the times we forget things, it's not necessarily that we forgot it. It's just that we can't recall it. We can't retrieve it.

And I might have to remind you or give you a little clue and then you're like oh yeah yeah i remember now or i give let's say i'm asking you hey what's the capital of whatever um let's let's say australia do you know the capital of australia offhand brisbane or sydney oh my god people are getting right now it's camera oh god did you did you know that what a setup no no i i okay okay that's this is a great example okay so your reaction there says it's not in my brain right i've never learned it so heck why should i why should i fucking know it right um that's okay that's not a memory problem that's just you didn't know right um then there's other ones that you probably know like what's the capital of france um paris there you go yeah you knew that okay good thank you i'm sorry i'm not trying to put you on the spot this is a great example those are two extremes right

you know it yeah you learned it it's like ingrained you don't even know where it comes from you just know it yeah then there was one you just didn't know it uh and you thought maybe you were guessing but when i told you it you weren't like oh yeah i know that i learned it once but forgotten but then there's a whole slew of of things information unnecessarily capitals that uh if you remember uh if you hear me say it um then you'll be like oh yeah i i knew that i i learned that once. So that issue has to do with storage or being able to pull it out, to fire the right synapses that connect to the answer. Because it tells you that the information is there, right? It's just you couldn't get it. Um, so, you know, the, the real, I think the, the, the mnemonic device that we all want is something that we can always retrieve it reliably.

And that's going to be having some kind of structure, organizational structure in place so that you can reliably retrieve the information. That's why the link step is so important. In college, there is like in undergrad, was eric erickson's eight stages of psychosocial development and i remember like it's a lot you know and i'm trying to not only remember what they are but be able to to you know categorize them and i just remember it like it's even stuck with me today it was ta for like um those are the first two stages, but it was like teachers associate teachers assistant. And then, um, for I, which is like that, it was like, it sounds like for I, which is for me,

but it's not for me. This is, it has nothing to do with me, but it's four eyes in a row. And then it's G you know, which is G E, which is the last two. So it's trust, autonomy, initiative, industry, identity, intimacy, generativity, and ego. And so it was T-A-4-I-G-E. So that's a mnemonic, right? T-A-4-I-G-E. Is that a mnemonic? It is, but the link part of it is kind of happening in that as well. You're taking something abstract. It's kind of blending. Yeah. You've got some imagery there, like the teacher's assistant, 4i.

You're maybe thinking about yourself and then GE. I don't know if... I didn't. GE just felt like it was easy. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. But the 4i was kind of just felt like it was easy sure yeah yeah yeah okay but the four i was kind of a flip because it was like no it's not about me it's about them and so yeah so anyways but you're you're essentially linking it to things that are more recognizable to you so the link thing is still kind of baked in there um and sometimes that's enough um you know especially for things that um boil down that you can reduce down to um just like uh those just some letters that represent so how

how would you do those four like are those eight yeah so i would maybe put, because I always feel like the memory palace is really the creme de la creme, most reliable thing if I want to remember something for longer term. So I would probably create a memory palace or use a memory palace that I already have that would have eight different locations. Now, here's the other thing so each of those categories those eight categories i would imagine you had to be able to you have to know more information about each one right oh yeah of course yeah yeah so the mnemonic that you had is good to remember the names of them but beyond that that specific mnemonic wouldn't really give you anything else you'd maybe have to learn that separately and do something else to remember that differently. But with a memory palace, you can actually put all of that information in one memory palace. So I could have, say, a big memory

palace, let's say a house I grew up in with eight parts of the house, right? Maybe the eight, the first one would just be the kind of entry area, the front door, maybe in the front yard. And I would put an image there to help me remember the T, right? Okay. For trust. For trust. Okay. So I don't know.

Maybe in the driveway or the front lawn or something, there's like a group of people just doing trust falls everywhere or something. That's just my thing at first. We just got cheesy falls everywhere or something that's just okay we just got cheesy it's okay it's okay yeah exactly okay good no no it's perfect right yeah so trust falls in the in the uh in the entryway yeah or in the driveway yeah right i i in this case i want to keep it kind of open so it's like really just the front area of my house because later on if there is more that I want to expand upon having to do with this particular topic of the eight, I can then put more images in that area more specific to certain details. Okay. References to studies or, I don't know, these other lists of things that have to do with this information. I don't know.

Let's use this because I think this is, it's, it's trust versus mistrust, a autonomy versus shame. So, so for trust versus mistrust, you said there's more in there, right? So trust versus mistrust. I was just kind of forcing my way to remember the second, if I could just get the foot in the door, T trust, I knew I could get the mistrust, but I bet there's a better way. And then I'll add one more layer of complexity is that there's this basic value. There's an aspirational value or virtue that if you move

through his first stage, trust versus mistrust, you come into the world with hope, right? So maybe if I can play with you a minute, we're in the kind of the entry way, not come into the world with hope, right? So, so maybe if I can play with you a minute, we're in the kind of the entry way, not yet in the front door is the way I did it. I don't know why yet, but okay. So not in the front door, there's a trust fall. I'll use yours there. And there's, um, there's somebody that fell that didn't have a good trust fall. And there's a bunch of people that are, um, taking care of the person and the person, and there's a bunch of people that are taking care of the person and the person and there's a bunch of and i don't know how i get to hope here but like there's there's like a hope that we can do it again right so they're trying to take care of the person that fell like i hope

that we can do it again is that how we would make that trust mistrust hope you're all kind of you're getting the idea there so you're almost building a little narrative there story um on that location which is how you would add more and more to this one concept um and i would even go further if like if you recognize that maybe uh how do i how would i just remember that word hope or that part to it that seems to be very important right you can't you can imagine you know maybe the person who fell who who uh did not um who now is feeling all of this mistrust. It's a baby pope. There you go.

Yeah. So something that rhymes with the word pope. Why would there be pope? Hope. Okay, hope. Or you might think of like Star Wars, A New Hope or something like that. Maybe you could put a Star Wars character there. Oh, that's where you go.

And this makes it very weird and some people have a resistance to this because they're like why would i put a star wars character in something that has to do with you know nothing to do with star wars um but again you're tapping it you're allowed you should allow this because you're tapping the things you already know pretty strongly i'm a big star wars fan so anytime i can have something that i love in the mix of all these abstract concepts or ideas I'm trying to memorize, awesome. Makes it much more of a fun experience to go through this later and be like, oh, look, there's Obi-Wan Kenobi.

What's he doing with these trust falls, right? It's funny. It's weird. It kind of feels like home because I love Star Wars, grew up with it. So you want to definitely tap into those kind of personal connections too, to enhance the memory. So then how do we go to the second one, just to make it more concrete? It's autonomy. Autonomy, yeah.

Autonomy versus shame. And if you come through that thing successfully, you're going to have a sense of will about you. Like you get stuff done. Got it. Okay. So then, you know, after we're done with the front area, maybe let's say we walk through the door of our palace, our house. And the next location could be the foyer, the entryway there. Whatever is there in the house that you're thinking of.

I am about to judge you and see just how weird your mind is now. Yeah. Well, I've always toned it down because mine can get kind of out there i'm totally joking no no take it take me there like i want to hear like how you really do it now this is a snarky way of me saying you know please be weird okay so i would um i would picture probably an automobile, just an auto automobile right there in the middle of my entryway as I walk into the door. And, you know, to remember that it was versus shame. I might picture shame makes me think of, you know, Cersei walking down that walk of shame in Game of Thrones.

And they're saying shame, shame. So maybe she's and she was naked in that scene all people throwing oh see there you go yeah there you go so and there was this ringing of a bell uh that was uh you know she's like dirty and people were throwing tomatoes and stuff and garbage and whatever so so she's inside the car right so it's the auto verse shame that i remember uh okay yeah and then you know will and then will is like the um if you come through that with high autonomy and you don't have a lot of shame basically from your parents then um you come through with a sense of will yeah so you know i a lot of these i'd start

with the basic and and if if autonomy versus shame is kind of like the the base I might play that down first and then I'd come back and add more but in this case yeah so I would imagine maybe this car is kind of going through right and maybe at the end of the hall or that room um will makes me think of like a friend of mine his name is will but for more of a visual thing let's maybe think of like will ferrell is there name is will but for more of a visual thing let's maybe think of like will ferrell is there right see i thought you're going to will smith and then you can do will smith slapped and then that's actually better yeah i didn't think of that uh but yeah i mean that's another thing is is you don't want to one thing that seems obvious to me in my memory

my an associative memory might be different for you and you go with what makes sense to you what's more meaningful to you but will smith is a good idea um let's put him there at the end of the hall there so so yeah if you come out of that um and and and then you know imagine the car hits will smith um that will as we're doing this like i i would play this long and i can imagine that you're i'm you like kind of playing it out right now and then i would get to will smith personally and i'd say like i don't want him anywhere in my stuff like i'm just having aversion you're gonna like the i don't know will smith but the arrogance to slap somebody like how convoluted is your life that you think you can go on stage and slap somebody publicly?

And then, I mean, so I don't know him, but I would not want that energy, you know, in this thing that's commingling with autonomy and great will. So I think I would edit it as I'm going. And then I would get concerned that I wouldn't get that will out. And I'm trying to get the Will Ferrell back in. And does that happen to you as well sometimes sometimes it does because trust me my images for cards sometimes I get things I'd rather not think about but I know that in those cases I probably will remember it more so I kind of allow it and that that's why even with the will smith he might be so opposite to what you're trying to remember there that it might actually enhance the memory because

it's so um contrasting you know um and so sometimes you know you keep it there for that reason some are more purist you know they like to lay down things that are entirely to their liking. But again, I think having things that kind of make you stir or feel like it's wrong or incorrect or out of place is exactly the things that we remember. So use that, right? Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day.

And Cozy Earth has become a new part of that. Their bedding, it's incredibly soft, like next level soft. And what surprised me the most is how much it actually helps regulate temperature. I tend to run warm at night and these sheets have helped me sleep cooler and more consistently, which has made a meaningful difference in how I show up the next day for myself, my family, and our team here at Finding Mastery. It's become part of my nightly routine. Throw on their lounge pants or pajamas, crawl into bed under their sheets, and my nervous system starts to settle. They also offer a 100-night sleep trial and a 10-year warranty on all of their bedding, which tells me, tells you, that they believe in the long-term

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They've got some great new products I think you'll be interested in. A shampoo, conditioner, and a hair serum. With Caldera Lab, it's not about adding more. It's about choosing better. And when your day demands clarity and energy and presence, the way you prepare for it matters. If you're looking for high quality personal care products that elevate your routine without complicating it, I'd love for you to check them out. Head to calderalab.com slash finding mastery and use the code finding mastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash finding mastery. So, so you bring up a really interesting point is if I'm better at memory,

I am enhancing my cognitive ability abilities. I'm supporting some of my cognitive abilities because memory is working. Memory is considered a cognitive skill. So that's cool. And maybe it buffers off some of the later stage natural decline of memory, or even as a, like we talked about earlier, buffer with Alzheimer's potentially. However, there are things that I don't want to remember. There are things that like, ah, that's good that I forgot that. And so is there any blowback? Is there any downside to having a great memory?

I don't think if my superpower was I remembered everything, you know, like a photographic memory, I don't think I would like that. Yeah, I agree. I wouldn't want that either. You know, you have some of these people who have very few people, but they have this hyper autobiographical memory. They remember everything about their lives. And that to me seems kind of too much. I don't want people to think that I'm a tape recorder. I don't remember absolutely everything everything my wife can tell you that straight

away um you know when it comes down to a memory is all about where you put your attention not that sounds really bad that i'm not paying attention to my wife but um when i forget like the groceries or something which does happen sometimes believe it or not um but yeah it's I actually I forgot where I was going with this stop I forgot that is the that that needs to be at the top of the show I forgot where I was going we're introducing the great memory champion Nelson says I forgot where I was going I mean it's great you know that I think what you're reminding me of is that okay so people okay. So people say to me, like that don't really know me and they want to be kind of funny and they're like, Oh, psychologist, sports psychologist. Oh, great. Like, you're not going to psychoanalyze me. Are

you? I'm like, first of all, no, you know, like that takes a lot of work and, um, I'm here to have fun at the cocktail party, you you know like that's not how this works but i will see things through my lenses of my training and you will see the see things through your lenses of training but is it safe to say that you have to work to put things into memory like but but so remember the the the eight stages do you remember those from when i just said them from like six minutes ago do you remember those i when I just said them from like six minutes ago? Do you remember those? I remember the letters.

I wasn't fully paying attention to the actual word. I mean, I remember the four that we started with. Well, the two that we started with that had the second part, the trust and the autonomy. And then I know it was the four I's and then the G-E, but I wasn't fully listening but you didn't yeah it's not like you heard those quickly and they're like because you're such a radical memory person that you suck those right into some no no but if you if we were to go over them now i could keep them and then i'd have them you know um yeah but in terms of you know picturing the things that i don't really want to picture sometimes um they're what's nice about having this this skill is you can deal with all sorts of types of thoughts and memories that you have in a different way. So if you get good at being able to imagine this and kind of morph what you're trying to memorize into something silly that fits in your closet, in your memory palace, you get good at taking memories and being able to distort them or resize them

or place them in different places. And so for people who have, say, traumatic events or memories that they can't shake, bad memories, you can actually, there are some psychology techniques where you can take a thought of a bad memory. And, you know, usually when you think about one of those memories, let's say I've broken up with an ex or something, and all I can do is picture her, you know, with someone else. And it's just like eating me alive. And I can't stop thinking about it. And it's like ruining my days, right? It's very mild compared to some probably larger trauma people may have. But just for the sake of example, you could maybe imagine that thought and then shrink it, right? And usually it'll be like in front of you,

like in front of your mind. What if you moved it to the side and like threw it off into the horizon, right? So now it's like this tiny speck over there, right? And usually when we feel bad about something that we're thinking about, it's not so much the visual that it is bothering us, it's the feeling that it gives us, right?

So that technique works really well if you do that, but then you have to have something to, let's say, let's play it along that it's an image of your ex and somebody else and then you shrink that down one you don't want to you don't want to play that tape too vividly too often either right because that burns the memory in right so you want to shrink that down using your language and then let's say you've got a this is where it would come alive in an interesting way, is that you've got a beautiful mountain scenery behind you, right? And then you're going to crumple it up into like, or just kind of see it be a leaf.

And then you blow the leaf and the leaf just kind of gets lost on the horizon. And then you take a moment, and I'm being abstract to make it concrete. And then you take a moment to replace that, what we just talked about with seeing a beautiful sunset. And so there's something to that. And I can't, I don't use that tactic very often because, um, I haven't found it to be highly potent, but I did practice it in graduate school and it has been useful for people so but the point is is that you have to almost like saturate yourself with a new image something that is um desirable as opposed to agitating yeah or yeah yeah that's one way to look at it i think also kind of how you perceive that thought if you change how that makes you feel. So something

that might be more off in the distance or more if they're upside down or small, like may not feel like, let's say it was a 10 in terms of like really painful to think about. Maybe it's now an eight, right? When I do that. Is it gone? No. Am I still thinking about it? Maybe. But it doesn't feel as painful or difficult, right? And that's something, right? Again, yeah, I think it might work to different levels for different people, might not work at all. training your mind to be able to play with images and thoughts as kind of how you just approach all things, good or bad. You know, yes, I'm not memorizing everything that I look at, but I am naturally at this point, because it's trained, looking and receiving information and looking at it as if I were going to memorize it. So everything's turning into associations and pictures and I'm kind of playing with things just instinctively at this point.

And that's kind of like the starting point. So everything's kind of ready to go in terms of locking it in, linking it, so it stays there. But I'm not doing that to everything. But at least the way I view the world and information that hits me, that's changed kind of through the training. One of hits me, um, that's changed, um, uh, kind of through the

training. One of my friends, Scott Gorman, um, he is like, he has, I've, I would call it a gift and he's probably trained it. I'll, I need to ask him now. Um, but he, we were walking through an event. It was a, um, a Superbowl event and we're walking through the event and he says, okay. And he knows, he knows a ton of people. He's just, he's an extrovert. He's a incredible in helping people organize their inner life as a practitioner. And he says, okay, Mike, that is the such and such at such and such club. It's the general manager's son. Um, you know, we had, we had lunch with them at such and such and but and i was like i would remember the face probably not the name and he just goes his name is and his role is and you

know this is where we met him and it's like holy moly like it's radical and it's a great teammate for me sure because um i'll remember the spirit of the person and um maybe a, but definitely I get the emotional vibe of the person. And there's a way that I can, that feels effortless to me. But do you have that same ability? And I'm going to ask you, like, can you help us, those of us who are going to go to some holiday events? And I introduce you to the Finding Mastery producer, Alex Wood, and you guys shake hands. What do you do with that? And then i quickly

introduce you to um you know somebody else and i say you know here you know a group of people like what do you do with alex yeah so i say the first thing you know is is the frame of mind going into a setting like that um oftentimes people are just there to have a good time, maybe get obliterated out of their mind, I don't know, or maybe even just say really cool things to people and that's all they're thinking about. But if you really care or want to care about remembering names, then you have to have that kind going on in your head before you meet someone or before you go into an event where you're going to meet people, you will come out of it remembering more. So it's an intent thing, right? Another thing that feeds into it is people's perception of their own memory abilities. If you think you have a bad memory, then you're probably going to be quick to say like, I'll never remember this person's name. And yeah, you won't um but if you can change that narrative and you can be more focused on what you

want which is to remember alex wood uh and maybe more information about him um you'll come away with more information than you would expect so that's the first step is to really change kind of you know before i go into it get this handshakehake and exchange names, I'm looking at this person, I'm in the moment with that person saying to myself, who's this guy, I want to know what this person's name is, and what he's all about. Like, that's all I care about in that moment. I'm not thinking about what I'm going to say, or, you know, what the food is that we're going to eat later. It's this guy, and the time he's giving me right now, you know? And so then we shake hands.

Sorry, go ahead. You shake hands. Yeah, you shake hands. And I'm going to quickly introduce you to another person, right? So how do you grab Alex? You're in the present moment. And Alex says, nice to meet you. And you say, great to meet you. You probably say Alex one more time just to have it out there.

And then are you doing some sort of memory palace in that moment? Or are you doing... Let me pause. What are you doing? Finding Mastery is brought to you by iRestore. When it comes to my health, I try to approach things with a proactive mindset. It's not about avoiding poor health. This is about creating the conditions for growth.

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that code is FindingMastery at iRestore.com slash FindingMastery for exclusive savings. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Lisa. Sleep is one of the foundational pillars of high performance. There's no arguing that. And when we have great sleep consistently and deeply, we give ourselves the best chance to operate at our best. Physically, cognitively, emotionally, sleep affects it all. That's why I care about the environment that I sleep in so much. And of course, a great mattress, it matters.

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I love that. So right now, you can get 25% off all mattresses at Lisa.com, plus an extra $50 off when you use the code FINDINGMASTERY at checkout. That's Lisa, L-E-E-S-A.com. The promo code is FINDINGMASTERY for 25% off, and then plus an extra $50 on us because quality sleep is just too important to leave to chance. Yeah, so i do yeah and it's it's not it's it's a it's a slight variation on the memory palace but it still is essentially the c-link

step steps where you know they say the name i think of an association to it whether it's the name reminds me of someone i know with the same name or excuse me or if i it sounds like something like a noun or something i can think of i'll think of that and then the link i do this really quick uh instead of linking it to a memory palace i'll link the name or the image to something about them i'll use maybe a facial feature that i'm looking at that i notice um it doesn't have to be something crazy like their caricature, anything mundane, even like, you know, I have a mole here, like I have creases when I, you know, like something that you noticed in my eyebrows, whatever, my beard, or let's say these were his features. I might attach that image to one of those things or have it interact in the same way that I would attach, you know, what we were memorizing before in the front yard or in the entryway. And so I try to do that quick. Now, someone who's just starting this, it might take longer to think

about that. It might be tricky while having conversations with lights and music, who knows, right? And drinks might be tricky. But with practice, again, this is where you can get to a point where you do that real quick. So for alex's i have preset images for a lot of common names and alex is always like a lexus like the actual car um because i think alex is like a lex says it's uh that's just my image for it if you're wondering would i confuse that with the name Alexis? No. Why? Because I've just learned it that way. So the car, the Lexus is just always Alex. And so anyway, so I would picture a Lexus driving around that feature. And I would throw that on his face like real quick in my mind.

Takes me a fraction of a second. And so if I get diverted, not the end of the world, I usually like to place the image real quick and then maybe, yeah, say the name or quiz myself again, do that active recall and be like, hey, just tell myself, okay, this is Alex. And then maybe wait a little bit, have a conversation and say, okay, that's Alex.

But if I get distracted and I'm introduced to someone else, I put that on hold and I'll do the same process with whoever I meet next. But then I'll always kind of review back in my mind. Yeah. And here's the thing. People don't expect – well, they expect me to. Remember everybody's name.

But most people, they don't expect it, right? So I think if you have like a grace period so within the moment um give or take you know five to thirty minutes i i feel like you can ask again and it's not so frowned upon but if you like wait till the end of the night uh or the next day when you see them at the office or something then it gets weird uh and it doesn't feel as great when they remember your name so i don't think there's any shame in asking for the person's name again especially in a in a situation like that where you're at a party and the names are rapid fire and people are dragging you left and right to say hey meet this person oh wait no let me show you this person

um i don't think it's unreasonable to go back and be like listen sorry we got interrupted remind me your name again i really want to know it um people might often feel like very special that you did that actually. Um, so I'm not afraid to do that either. Um, cool. Yeah. Yeah. Very cool. All right. Listen, this is awesome. I, you know, I want to, I want to, we didn't talk about climbing Everest and we didn't talk about the way that you practice to train to be a champion. And I feel like this is, uh, in your world, this is probably a very pedestrian conversation. I'm sorry to take us there, but like, it's like I needed the help. And, um, and I think a lot of folks in our community will find value in what you have to say. And if we can just kind of wrap

up, cause I want to honor your time. Tell us about your climbing and how it relates to Alzheimer's and memory. And can you just tell us about that? And it's super inspiring, first of all, that you are an avid, skilled climber and how you're putting purpose and cause wrapped around it. Thank you. Yeah. I, um, I've always been fascinated with the mountains and anything that makes me feel small, um, and, and kind of humbled in the world and mountains do that. Um, so I've always loved that. Um, back when I started learning these techniques and discovering them, I always was shocked that not many people knew of the techniques or knew or really thought twice about brain health as something that you could work on. So I decided, you know, I needed to share this with as many people as possible.

And I thought going to climb mountains and kind of raise awareness through those endeavors would be a great head turner for the cause that was underneath it. And so I've been climbing very casually and learning some mountaineering skills and i was like you know what i want to climb everest um that's huge goals to be coming out of my mouth uh you know at the age that i was and the experience that i had but heck i'm gonna do it um took me a couple of years to figure out how to get there. And I created this charity, Climb for Memory. And at the beginning, it was me doing these big climbs and trying to get sponsors and try to raise awareness and get attention for this disease. And then over the years, and now I run kind of yearly tracks up Kilimanjaro and to Everest Base Camp and things like that for groups who climb for the cause. So I kind of open source it a little bit.

But yeah, climbing Everest. I've been there, up there four times. Funnily enough, I don't know if this is anywhere in the research that you did, but I haven't summited. I've come so close. The closest was 50 meters from the top. I've turned around for numerous reasons. It's one of these, it's personally a goal of mine, obviously, to summit. It's not entirely all for the cause.

It is a challenge. And I like these kinds of challenges. And I don't know, I've, I've, I've done a lot of climbs like that, that really make me value what it means to be alive. And I'm kind of addicted to that. So, um, I keep going back. Um, but yeah, it's an amazing, awesome, amazing experience. Um, I hope the conditions are right for you and I see value in the way that you're able to discern to choose the safe path versus the obnoxiously obnoxious risk-taking path. And so if somebody wants to support your cause, how, how do you, how do you enroll them and their energy in or their resources

into what you're doing? so i mean people can donate uh to my charity um that's simple but uh i prefer when what is how does the money get spent and where does it go yeah uh when i first started i was i was new to this whole thing but i was tied to the alzheimer's association um and then i realized that i didn't necessarily like just giving it to these big organizations um like that it didn't feel like i was doing much um so since then i've been a little more selective and it's it changes all the time i'm always kind of trying to figure out where i want the money to go um Kind of interesting research projects or. I've got a,

I've got a fun one that I'd love for you to check out and I'm happy to make the introduction. I was on their board for a while. It's the Institute of neuro innovation, Institute of neurological innovation. Okay. And they're in Southern California, brilliant neurosurgeon that is fully dedicated to help

solve Alzheimer's and other challenges with the brain. Awesome. Primarily Alzheimer's. And he is awesome. Okay. And I'd love, like he is doing incredible work, Dr. Amir Vokshar. And if you're interested and you're looking for a way to, you know, through your work to support them but for for our community

is um what is what is the best way for them to be part do you have do you have to be doing a climb for them to donate that doesn't seem right no no no no no but i i a lot of people have interest in in doing these kinds of life-changing experience. And it's kind of cool to do something big, life-changing personally for you while also making a difference for a cause, you know. But no, they can reach out to me, have a conversation with me and donate to the charity. And even if they have some ideas like you sharing

where I'd love to check that out as well, where they would like to see the money go. I'm, I, I, that's the nice thing about having something where I'm pretty much I'm a very, very small team. So I can, I can delegate where that goes, you know? So is it, is it, do I have the structure, right? Is that you're going to do a climb or you're going to support somebody to do a climb. And if they're going to do a climb and they have an affinity for Alzheimer's or brain health, that they would either pull some resources to help. Um, like I'm doing this climb for your charity or your nonprofit and they're pulling money in not to support their climb, but support to support alzheimer's in a

way that they uh choose um whether it actually be through my charity or they go direct to another charity of their choice um that has to do with alzheimer's okay but oftentimes they'll maybe do what we often do is like how many feet are you climbing for every foot? You know, they might have someone in their circle donate to what they're doing. A thousand dollars a foot. How about it? That'd be great. Yeah. That'd be great. Wouldn't it? Yeah. I don't think people are that generous, but yes, that's the idea. Yeah. Okay. I totally get it. That's awesome. Okay. I want to say thank you. Thank you for getting down the weeds with me here. And where can people find your book? Where can people go to the website for your nonprofit?

And where do you want them to coalesce with to follow your journey? Yeah. So there's a few resources out there. At a starting point, you can just go to my website, Nelson Delis. All the stuff is there um you can reach my books my youtube channel is pretty active with memory tips and things like that it leads to my my charity page which is climb for memory.org the number four um and then yeah my books again they link for my page but you can also just search on amazon you'll find those two books there i have two books out right now. One is called Remember It. It's kind of my main book describing this whole technique, business, ceiling go and

specific strategies to memorize specific things. And then I wrote a kid's version of that called Memory Superpowers, which is much more, yeah, it's kid friendly. I actually like that book more. I like to read it as well. and adults will read it as well. I've ordered that. I read yours, and I've ordered – yeah, no, no, it's good. And I ordered one for my son that we're going to – Oh, perfect. How old is he? He's 14, but some basic stuff uh there as well so listen nelson n-e-l-s-o-n dellis d-e-l-l-i-s

dot com is that correct that's correct yep yeah i appreciate you thank you for um sharing your expertise your time your talent and helping our community be better and hopefully there's a rising tide where there's folks here that are, you know, looking for a good place to support Alzheimer's and, and making a difference in brain health. So thank you, Nelson. I appreciate it. I appreciate you. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate

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