Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - How To Overcome Fear and Trust Yourself | Record-Breaking Highliner, Faith Dickey

Episode Date: January 17, 2024

Imagine standing on the edge of a cliff, facing an inch-wide line of webbing that stretches across a vast expanse. It’s tensioned between two secure anchor points but it’s a dynamic surface that will bounce, sway, and stretch when you step out on it. This line isn't just a piece of equipment; it's a gateway to mastering fear and discovering your true potential.This is the world of highlining, and Faith Dickey stands at its forefront – embodying resilience and mental fortitude.Since 2008, Faith has been redefining what's possible in highlining, a sport that demands extreme focus and courage. She's not only one of the few women excelling in this field but also a record-setter and a barrier-breaker. From free soloing a highline 3,000 feet off the ground to crossing a 100-meter highline and walking a highline in high heels, Faith's achievements are a testament to her extraordinary capabilities.But Faith's impact extends beyond her highlining feats. She's an advocate for women in extreme sports and has created the first US business offering highline experiences, making this exhilarating sport accessible to more people.Whether you're facing your own metaphorical highline or seeking to manage fear more effectively, Faith's journey offers invaluable lessons in courage, commitment, and the power of the human spirit._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Finding Mastery is brought to you by Remarkable. In a world that's full of distractions, focused thinking is becoming a rare skill and a massive competitive advantage. That's why I've been using the Remarkable Paper Pro, a digital notebook designed to help you think clearly and work deliberately. It's not another device filled with notifications or apps.

It's intentionally built for deep work. So there's no social media, no email, no noise. The writing experience, it feels just like pen on paper. I love it. And it has the intelligence of digital tools like converting your handwriting to text, organizing your notes, tagging files, and using productivity templates

to help you be more effective. It is sleek, minimal. It's incredibly lightweight. It feels really good. I take it with me anywhere from meetings to travel without missing a beat. What I love most is that it doesn't try to do everything. It just helps me do one very important thing really well,

stay present and engaged with my thinking and writing. If you wanna slow down, if you wanna work smarter, I highly encourage you to check them out. Visit remarkable.com to learn more and grab your paper pro today. I think it's easy to try to kind of beat these voices down and think we need to be absolutely fearless to achieve anything or do anything that's hard.

You don't need to be fearless at all. You just need to not let fear be the one steering your ship. Welcome back or welcome to the Finding Mastery podcast. I am your host, Dr. Michael Gervais, by trade and training a high-performance psychologist. I am thrilled to bring you this week's conversation with Faith Dickey. And I think the best way to introduce her is to get you to imagine her world. So imagine standing on the edge of a cliff facing an inch-wide line of webbing that stretches across a vast expanse. Now, it's tensioned between two secure anchor points, but it's dynamic in its surface. And that surface will bounce, it will sway, it will stretch. When you step on it, it's got that tension on it. This is a line that isn't

just a piece of equipment, it's a gateway. It's a gateway to mastering fear, to discovering your potential. This is the world of highlining. And Faith Dickey is a pioneer and a legend in this incredible sport. Now, Faith isn't just a highliner, of course. Nobody can be defined by what they do. She's a symbol of resilience and mental fortitude. Since 2008, she's been redefining what's possible in a sport that demands extreme focus and demands courage. She's one of the few women to excel in highlighting

and has set multiple world records and achieved a series of groundbreaking firsts. For example, she was the first woman to free solo a highline. Yep, I said that correctly. Free solo a highline. So let's just pause a minute here and think about what it means to free solo in this way. She's walking on a webbing an inch wide, 3,000 feet off the ground, and she's doing it without a leash or a safety harness. How about it? In our conversation, Faith takes us deep into the mental landscape of highlining. She shares how she navigates

the delicate balance between fear and intuition and how her experiences high above the ground have shaped her approach to life's challenges. Her strategies for managing fear from breathwork to self-talk are lessons in resilience and self-awareness. And I think you're going to be intrigued by how you can apply these highlining takeaways in your own life. So whether you're directly facing your own metaphorical highline or a free solo in your life, or simply curious about what it takes to manage fear just a bit more effectively, Faith's experiences offer valuable lessons in courage and commitment

and the power of the human spirit. So with that, let's jump right into this extraordinary conversation with Faith Dickey. Faith, I am so excited to sit down with you, but let's start a kind of home base. How are you? I'm doing pretty good. I'm pretty tired. I'm currently renovating a house that we just purchased. So I've been doing that for the last seven days straight. But I'm great. I'm excited and yeah, happy to be here. Awesome. So I just want to start by having you paint the picture of highlining for our community. So we want to just help set the scene for people listening. Maybe give us a quick explanation of what highlining is and then maybe transition and bringing them into like

the way it feels for you to be up there and then maybe even getting into you know your record setting free solo and so can we just start highline what it's like for you and then and then move into free solo definitely um highlining is a balanced sport. It looks very similar to tight rope walking for those who don't know what it is. The difference is that a tight rope is a steel cable that's completely taut and a tight rope walker uses a pole, whereas a highliner is actually walking on a flat woven rope that's stretchy and sways and bends and it's not quite as taut as a tight rope. And we don't use a pole to balance. We just use our arms and our body to maintain equilibrium. And highlining really originated in Yosemite Valley, California in the 70s and early 80s. Climbers on rest days took some of their climbing

webbing and stretch it between two trees and started balancing on it. And they decided it was super cool. And they're like, what if we do it super high off the ground? And that was kind of the birth of the sport. I started highlining and slacklining in 2008. I just started in a park between trees. It was totally a hobby for me at the very get-go. And a series of things happened. But a year later, I found myself traveling around Europe, backpacking. I was 20. And that's where I was introduced to highlining for the first time. And I was

mind-blown. I had never experienced fear like that. And I kind of immediately had this goal of walking one highline. It was fascinating for me because I could walk a slack line between trees close to the ground. No problem. I was quite good. But just moving that same line 50 to 100 feet off the ground, it was like my body stopped responding. I was gripped. And I was so intrigued by that.

You know, why is my mind preventing me from doing this? If it's the same exact physical effort, why can't I do it? Okay. So slacklining, you're on a woven fabric that's smaller than the width of your foot, right? And then the difference between slacklining and highlining is you're doing it in an elevated state. And so what you're saying is that I could do it on the slack line, but as soon as I was up X number of feet, it was a completely different experience. It felt like you were in a different body. Is that close to being right? Absolutely. Yes. And to clarify, on a high line, most of the time, and the majority of people are wearing a climbing harness with a leash, so you're totally

safe. If you fall, you're not going to fall to your death. But even knowing that I was somehow unable to get my body to respond when I told myself, stand up, I just couldn't move. Okay. So that's a natural response. That is what is supposed to take place when you're in the presence of fears? Your body's supposed to say, tighten up, don't move forward. Why go into danger? Like we're trying to, you know, we're trying to keep you alive here. What are you doing? And so while intellectually, you know that you're tethered, the entire flooding of information coming into your brain is I am at heights.

If I fall, I could die. So there's this weird short circuit that takes place from the thinking brain and the automatic response mechanisms of the brain. And so how did you work through that? Because what you're describing is why I got into the field of sports psychology. I could do it in practice, but I couldn't do it game day. I could do it when I felt safe to be able to go for it. But then as soon as I had this other narrative that, oh, there's real consequences on the line, I would tighten up. So how did you do it? Well, initially I was very frustrated, right? I'd never participated in an

activity like that where fear was stopping me from achieving something. Of course, I'd been nervous like anyone, but it was a different feeling. It was very much like you just explained this kind of primal fear, like something hardwired in my brain. You know, don't be out in the void. Initially, I just decided I need to walk one highline. I just got to walk one and then obviously I'm not cut out for the sport. I'm not good. Then I'll be done. And the first five high lines I tried, I didn't walk them successfully. I just stood up and fell and stood up and fell, stood up, took a step, fell. I fell so many times.

And so when you fall in a high line, you're typically dangling on a leash in a harness three to four feet below the line. But then you have to climb back up that leash and remount the high line. So it's very physical. And then you have all this adrenaline coursing through your body at the same time, and you're trying to remain calm. And the people I started with, they were a little bit more experienced than me, but this was kind of a moment in the sport where we were really pioneering the sport itself. So there wasn't a ton of information out there to rely on or refer to. And we kind of sort of navigated that together as a

team. Like, how do we take our skills on the ground and that calm, that sense of calm and focus, and do it when we're high off the ground and our brain is responding that way. And so one method that I started to use was using logic. So really reminding myself with that internal dialogue, you are safe, you are tied in, the High Line is safe, you will be okay. It was really my first introduction to the ego as well, because I almost felt like my brain split into these different voices when I was on the High Line. I had this kind of chatter going on of, you suck. You can't do this.

You're going to fall. You're no good. And this other voice that was trying to combat that of, you can do this. You can stand up one step at a time. And I really noticed how I had a way of elevating one of those voices. I couldn't make the chatter, the negative self-talk go away, but I could make it quieter. And so by kind of focusing on that positive voice, it wasn't a voice of confidence so much as a voice of just encouragement. I was able to get through that block, that gripped feeling. And in a lot of ways, it was kind of

just about throwing myself at it over and over again, and each time learning a little bit more and each time understanding more of what worked for me. Faith, this is really exciting for me as an applied psychologist here to hear you talk about the civil war inside of yourself. You've got this primal reflexive fear response to keep you alive. You've got this ambition to try to get to the edge and try to unlock this thing and figure it out. You've got a goal, if you will. And you've got two types of narrative. You've got the, what are you doing? Get off of this. This is crazy. You're not going to figure it out. You're not built for this. You're going to get hurt. Whatever that narrative is that was constricting you and keeping you safe. And then you have this other narrative,

which is purposeful and productive. And you're trying to move yourself forward with that type of self-talk. We all have both of these narratives. All of us have it. This is why I wanted to have the conversation with you because most people look at what you do and we're going to get to the solo bit in a minute, which has the most radical consequences that you can imagine. Mistakes cost lives. That you were able to work with your self-talk, to work with your narrative. And I'm going to stop talking here as I've got a direction I want to go. But this idea that you are saturating your experience with productive, positive, purposeful self-talk to damp down and quiet the other part of survival mechanisms is awesome. That is great.

And you were doing it a little bit like, I don't know, in kind of an archaic, unsophisticated, but brute force, you figured it out. There are some better ways, but I just want to get to the raw source of it. Do you recognize that we all have those narratives? Like everybody, not just you? Yes, 100%. And in fact, it's over the last 14 years that I've been highlighting, I feel like I've understood so much more about how those narratives affect us in everyday life. They're always there. They're always present. And how I approached this voice in my mind when I started highlighting was via brute force. And actually, over the course of my Highline career, I've come around to a much kinder approach, which I find to be far more sustainable.

I think it's easy to try to kind of beat these voices down and think we need to be absolutely fearless to achieve anything or do anything that's hard. And now I have realized that you don't need to be fearless at all. You just need to not let fear be the one steering your ship, right? Like you can have fear and still do these things. And fear is there to protect us. Like it's a very useful tool. Typically when I'm guiding people, I want them to be a little scared.

The people who just cruise right up to the edge of the cliff and get too close, they make me nervous. I'm like, hey, you want to maintain a little sense of fear so that you can understand risk. But when the risk is low, but your brain is perceiving it as high, those are the moments where you do want to be in control of your fear. Okay. Quick pause here to share some of the sponsors of this conversation. Finding Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Solutions. In any high-performing environment that I've been part of, from elite teams to executive boardrooms, one thing holds true. Meaningful relationships are at the center of sustained success. And building those relationships, it takes more than effort.

It takes a real caring about your people. It takes the right tools, the right information at the right time. And that's where LinkedIn Sales Navigator can come in. It's a tool designed specifically for thoughtful sales professionals, helping you find the right people that are ready to engage, track key account changes, and connect with key decision makers more effectively. It surfaces real-time signals, like when someone changes jobs or when an account becomes high priority, so that you can reach out at exactly the right moment with context and thoroughness that builds trust. It also helps tap into your own network more strategically, showing you who you already know that can help you open doors

or make a warm introduction. In other words, it's not about more outreach. It's about smarter, more human outreach. And that's something here at Finding Mastery that our team lives and breathes by. If you're ready to start building stronger relationships that actually convert, try LinkedIn Sales Navigator for free for 60 days at linkedin.com slash deal. That's linkedin.com slash deal. For two full months for free, terms and conditions apply. Finding Mastery is brought to you by David Protein. I'm pretty intentional about what I eat, and the majority of my nutrition comes from whole foods. And when I'm traveling or in between meals on a demanding day, certainly I need something quick that will support the way that I feel and think and perform. And that's why I've

been leaning on David protein bars. And so has the team here at Finding Mastery. In fact, our GM Stuart, he loves them so much. I just want to kind of quickly put them on the spot. Stuart, I know you're listening. I think you might be the reason that we're running out of these bars so quickly. They're incredible, Mike. I love them. One a day, one a day. What do you mean one a day? There's way more than that happening here. Don't tell. Okay. All right. Look, they're incredibly simple they're effective 28 grams of protein just 150 calories and zero grams of sugar it's rare to find something that fits so conveniently into a performance-based lifestyle and actually tastes good dr peter attia someone

who's been on the show it's a great episode by the way is also their chief science officer so i know they've done their due diligence in that category. My favorite flavor right now is the chocolate chip cookie dough and a few of our teammates here at Finding Mastery have been loving the fudge brownie and peanut butter. I know Stuart, you're still listening here. So getting enough protein matters and that can't be understated, not just for strength, but for energy and focus, recovery, for longevity. And I love that David is making that easier. So if you're trying to hit your daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out.

Get a free variety pack, a $25 value and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash finding mastery. And with that, let's jump right back into this conversation. I love this because when people look at you and you've earned the right to be world's best, you've set records. I want to get to the solo bit here. I've teased it three times, but however, when people look at you, they think that oftentimes that you're different. You're born with this high ceiling for risk and you don't maybe even have fear and how reckless you are. And there's a narrative and a critique about it.

But they create that narrative to feel okay with their lives. Okay that they're not pushing it. They make you look like the special different one. And what I hear you saying is, I couldn't even take a first step. I was tethered. I was up in the air. How many feet? Like, are we talking about your first highline?

My first highline was only like 50 feet high. It wasn't even that high. Yeah. Five stories, five story building, four story building. You know, I mean, it's funny that you say it's not that high. It's high, you know, like there's some problems if you fall from 50 feet. Relatively. Yeah. Relatively. Yeah. Good. Nice. And so, but I love this that you, you literally have earned a world record on free soloing and, and you're saying, yeah, when I first started, I couldn literally have earned a world record on free soloing. And you're saying, yeah, when I first started, I couldn't even take a step. And I even thought, I went from zero to 100, like, I'm only going to do this once and then I'm out of here. And you ended up staying with it for a long time.

That to me speaks volumes to the understanding how to work with yourself, to stay in it, whatever the it is, when it matters. And it mattered to you. You wanted to keep pursuing it. So you're a trailblazer. You've carved a unique path and I love it. Let's go to solo. Help me understand why you go from highlighting where you're safe, but then you decide to transition into solo high lining. And like, why and how did you do that? When I first started high lining, you know, there weren't a ton of high liners worldwide, but there had been some free solos that had existed. So walking a high line with no harness, no leash. So very high consequence if

you were to fall off the line. And I thought it was stupid. I was like, why would you take that risk? But I went super hard when I started out. And so I became very good, very fast. And I quickly reached this point where I really wanted to explore that space of, I can walk this line with a harness and a leash over and over all day without falling. It's super easy. Why, if I just remove the harness and the leash, is it a totally different experience? The harness and the leash doesn't make the line easier physically. If anything, it's more cumbersome.

But somehow having that leash attached to my body makes it entirely different in my mind. And so for whatever reason, be it my brain releases different amounts of dopamine and adrenaline than others, or just me being inquisitive and curious, I really wanted to know what was preventing me from walking a high line leashless. And so I, my first solo was tiny. It was, it was very small, um, relatively very low to the ground, maybe 25 feet up. And it was like a good little introduction. Like if I can solo this very easy line, that's not very scary for me. Maybe I'll continue pursuing that space. And so I remember soloing that line and just feeling pretty powerful,

like I had really been in full ownership of my mind and my body. And I also recall that I didn't think about anything while I was on the line. It was like I just locked in to a certain flow. And that was a really amazing experience for me. And then in the next solos that I did following that, I had plenty of thoughts. I experienced that gripped feeling again, where I was kind of vibrating with fear because I was so aware of the consequence if something went wrong. However, technically speaking, I had trained myself to catch highlines if I fell. So a lot of people see it as this completely reckless thing, you know, stupid even. But in fact, it's a very calculated risk. I even went four years without falling off of a highline completely. I caught every single time. And for me,

that was a really necessary type of training if I was going to be soloing, because I wanted to know that I had a backup if I did fall, that I could catch the line. But a lot of times with soloing, something I noticed was that there's this very fine line between intuition and fear. And I think in our modern world, we don't get to interact with intuition very often. We're constantly distracted by screens, by communication, by people, by busyness. And it's rare that we really tune into ourself. And so sitting on the edge of a cliff, deciding if I was going to walk that highline with no leash and no harness was an opportunity for me to really look inside of myself and at that feeling I was having and ask myself the question, is this fear or is this a deeper knowing, an intuition that's telling me

not today? Walk away. It's super important for me when I embark on a free solo highline to really do it for the right reason and feel totally good about that decision. And there's been highlines where I wasn't sure. I didn't feel totally solid that day for some reason. And I walked the line with a leash many times and felt great about it. But somehow when I took off that leash and approached the high line and sat on the edge, I just felt like today's not the day. And so I guess part of it was just kind of wanting to explore that to feel like I could know myself on a deeper level and to start to perceive the difference between fear and intuition, if that makes sense. I love the nuance that you're sharing between fear and intuition and how we are numb to our intuition. And I also, so what I would like to do is I would like to spend some time here to open that up. When you got it, do you camp or do you drive from a hotel in the one that you're thinking about? Oh, typically camp. Yeah. I'm usually sleeping

outdoors. That's right. So let's say that you know today you're going to solo. And can you tell me like the one that you're thinking about right now that we're going to capture like what it was like? Is maybe it's your record? Actually actually there was a recent one that was um so i'm i'm kind of uh starting to put together this film about soloing highlining with a couple friends of mine who are filmmakers and it's the first time in my life i've created a goal around soloing there's been lines i've wanted to solo but i never attached any any sense of you know an objective for them. And this highline recently here in Moab,

it's a line I've soloed before. I knew I could solo it. I'd soloed it maybe a month before, but just shifting the pressure to be for filming made it very murky and hard to determine if I felt okay about it because I've soloed for myself entirely. Right. And then to, yeah, this is a different variable. Um, yeah, I I've wrestled with this working with folks like you, um, as soon as there's a film crew around and just like,

it keeps us, us up at night, like to knock it the way, to not create undue pressure. The over-rotation about just having a new variable, a camera, a different person. Maybe there's thousands or millions of dollars, thousands of people watching, millions of dollars on the line. It changes things. 100%. Yeah. So I do want to talk about that. so let's go. Okay. So let's

maybe use your more recent one tent on zips. You know, you're going to solo today. What is that like when you're, I'm assuming you're going to go maybe make some tea or coffee or have some breakfast and, um, and just kind of have that morning routine. What is that like for you? Let's just start there. There's a lot of kind of internal dialogue going on. If I have a line I want to solo, a good example is a high line in Yosemite Valley that I've walked numerous times and I've always wanted to solo. It's 3,000 feet high. It's extremely exposed. From a technical standpoint, totally easy for me. But something about that line is so intense and intimidating. I've never managed to fully take off the leash and just do it. But I've been there multiple times wanting to solo it. Wait, wait, wait. Maybe you're scared. Maybe you're just too mentally weak.

Yeah. Of course. Yeah. I'm totally joking. I thought you would laugh, but you didn scared. Like maybe you're just mentally weak. Yeah. Of course. Yeah. I'm totally joking. Like I thought you would laugh, but you didn't. Okay. So. Well, no, that's basically. Yeah.

That's the voice of my head though. Like that's exactly what you just said. I was playing a bad joke. So 3000 feet fully exposed wind or no wind, high wind or low wind. You always wind and oftentimes an upward draft, which is really interesting. It's coming from under you, which is just unusual. We don't experience that very often. Oh God. Okay. Water below, rock below. Rock below. It's basically between a spire and a wall. And so, yeah.

Do you survive 3,000 feet? Does anybody survive a 3,000 foot fall? Absolutely not. Matter of fact, that's part of what's so scary about it is you would have time to think about it. Like you'd be falling for a while, you know, and that does go through your mind when you're soloing. Like I would be aware that I was dying if I did fall. And I know this sounds nuts, but. No, no. We're going to open this thing up. You don't love your mom, right? You don't love your mom and dad. I do love my mom. I grew up without a dad, so no one there to love. I did grow up without a dad. Yeah. Okay. Trauma there or no trauma? Definitely trauma. Yes. Trauma. Trauma.

Trauma. And have you talked about your trauma or not so much? Yes, I have been in therapy for the last three years. So I've done quite a bit of- Have you talked publicly about it? Not specifically. I'm not private about it, but I haven't like blasted it to the world, so to speak. Can you just shape how, we're going to get back to the solo here in a minute, but I haven't like blasted it to the world, so to speak. Can you just shape how we're going to get in back to the solo here in a minute, but can you shape what nobody gets to this world

without trauma, big T, little T, we've all got it. Um, most people are just so busy and trying to protect and project the life of success that they never get honest and they end up living a bit of a shell of themselves. And it's like, movie, Don't Look Up, Don't Really Look In. So my favorite people on the planet are those that go to the edge. And they've gone to the edge in lots of different ways, emotional edges, in your case, physical and consequential edges. And they know how to take care of themselves because they're working from an honest place. Those that, like the base jumpers that I've spent a lot of time with, the reckless ones, nobody really wants to be around them.

The adrenaline junkies, no one really wants to be around them. I mean, it's stimulating fun in one way, but it's like, that's dangerous and reckless. And that decision-making is not cool. What I hear you saying is the reason I wanted a solo is because it was the next natural step. I was really good at what I was doing. And just like a great mathematician, just like a great historian, just like a great writer, I just wanted to take the next natural step and explore and go into that place to

see if I could add to this beautiful craft that I love or science or whatever. Do I have that close to being right? Or was it more narcissistic? Like, yeah. I don't think so. It wasn't narcissistic? Yeah. I don't think I could fully make that opinion about myself, but I felt like it was more

an exploration of my own relationship to my mind. You know, it wasn't, I never set out to actually have all the world records I had were, were accidents. In fact, I was just extremely driven. I never started the sport with the intention of I'm going to set records. I just was pushing very hard and records were sort of a by-product. Can you string the pushing really hard to your traumas? And are they big T's or little T's? Yeah. Are

big T's or little T's? What are we talking about? I have both big T and little T. Um, I'm, I'm happy to share a little bit. Um, I grew up with a single mom. Uh, my father, we left my dad when I was three, but he was, uh, uh, an abusive alcoholic. And so I don't have memories of that time, but I definitely was around violence when I was very small. My mother struggled with mental illness my entire life and is a severe hoarder. And so I kind of grew up in a house where I had no control over my own environment. And I've made a lot of connections to my Highline pursuits in relation to my upbringing, because growing up in a house where not only you have to be the parent and you don't have a parent to parent you, but in an environment where you have no control over your surroundings, you desperately want something you can control. And so highlining was that for

me. It was something that I could control. Like the line is shaking because I'm shaking. I'm going to get this thing under control. And so I think the initial first five or six years I was highlining, it was quite an addiction for me. I was addicted to the control. And I was very much of the mindset that I needed to beat myself down, that I needed to beat the fear into submission. I needed to be so hard on myself that I succeeded. And that was also the example I had growing up. I love my mom. And yet she also kind of displayed this example of just working yourself into the ground. And so that's kind of what I knew. That's what I thought you had to do. You know, I didn't know how to rest or take

a break or after an injury, do physical therapy and recover. I would push through the pain and it was completely unsustainable. And after about six years of highlining, I had, you know, I destroyed my knee and I had kind of other lingering injuries and I was totally burnt out. And I think a lot of that was related to the trauma I grew up with. Just not having a healthy relationship to the self and not knowing how to be kind to myself either. And so I went through a sort of rock bottom where I basically was no longer the record holder because I wasn't highlighting as much because of these injuries. And I had no idea who I was. I had completely fused my identity to the Faith Dickey, who is the world record holding

highliner. And I didn't know, I didn't know that was happening. It just kind of happened, you know, under my nose. And it was really strange to realize that I felt totally worthless and it was terrible. And I thought, wow, I've never learned to just like love myself and feel intrinsically valuable. I've only known how to do it via my performance. And it sort of dawned on me how many people do that with their careers too, you know? And I always thought I was above that, like, oh, I've chosen the alternative path. I've chosen, you know, passion and travel and living outdoors, but actually the same thing was happening to me. And so that was sort of a turning point for me where I kind of started to work on myself and to heal my body and change my relationship to fear and my relationship to highlighting.

I really didn't want to highlight for a few years. Like I was done. I just wanted to completely walk away. I'm going to pause the conversation here for just a few minutes to talk about our sponsors. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentous. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday, what you put in your body matters. And that's why I trust Momentous. From the moment I sat down with Jeff Byers, their co-founder and CEO, I could tell this was not your average supplement company. And I was immediately drawn to their mission, helping people achieve performance for life.

And to do that, they developed what they call the Momentus Standard. Every product is formulated with top experts and every batch is third-party tested. NSF certified for sport or informed sport. So you know exactly what you're getting. Personally, I'm anchored by what they call the Momentus 3, protein, creatine, and omega-3. And together, these foundational nutrients support muscle recovery, brain function,

and long-term energy. They're part of my daily routine. And if you're ready to fuel your brain and body with the best, Momentus has a great new offer just for our community right here. Use the code FINDINGMASTERy for 35% off your first subscription order at LiveMomentous.com. Again, that's L-I-V-E Momentous, M-O-M-E-N-T-O-U-S, LiveMomentous.com. And use the code FindingMastery for 35% off your first subscription order.

Finding Mastery is brought to you by Felix Grey. I spend a lot of time thinking about how we can create the conditions for high performance. How do we protect our ability to focus, to recover, to be present? And one of the biggest challenges we face today is our sheer amount of screen time. It messes with our sleep, our clarity, even our mood. And that's why I've been using Felix Grey glasses. What I appreciate most about Felix Grey is that they're just not another wellness product. They're rooted in real science. Developed alongside leading researchers and ophthalmologists, they've demonstrated these types of glasses boost melatonin,

help you fall asleep faster, and hit deeper stages of rest. When I'm on the road and bouncing around between time zones, slipping on my Felix Grays in the evening, it's a simple way to cue my body just to wind down. And when I'm locked into deep work, they also help me stay focused for longer without digital fatigue creeping in. Plus, they look great. Clean, clear, no funky color distortion. Just good design, great science. And if you're ready to feel the difference for yourself, Felix Gray is offering all Finding Mastery listeners 20% off. Just head to FelixGray.com and use the code FINDINGMASTERY20 at checkout.

Again, that's Felix Gray. You spell it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com and use the code FINDINGMASTERY20 at FelixGray.com for 20% off. Let's jump right back into the conversation. So what you're describing is identity foreclosure where I am what I do and that happens at a relatively young age, especially when there's a talent or a deep interest involved. And I am how well I am what I do relative to other people. Now that's a performance-based identity.

So the first danger that you just described is I shut down everything else. I am this. And then when you build from that, you build the performance-based identity. So I am how good I do what I do relative to other people. And then as soon as somebody else breaks a record and you're not in the light anymore, you're not in the thing able to demonstrate who you are, you don't matter.

Not really, but that's the way it feels. And so thank you for sharing that. And also, can you help me understand the level of pain that you felt and the suffering from growing up in that family and how that felt or transmuted into the deep work that you're doing? I think that this kind of rock bottom period where I also was totally unsure what to do with my life, right? I'd been a professional athlete for the majority of my 20s and I didn't really know how to pivot. You know, I think it's when I started to relate my upbringing to the way I'd been practicing

highlining. You know, I was addicted to highlining like you could be addicted to a drug. When I was on a highline experiencing that intensity, I didn't have to think about the mom I couldn't rescue or save, the things I was lacking in my childhood. I didn't have to think about, you know, my relationship to myself because I was there for a very specific goal. And that was to become very good at high highlighting and to control the line and control myself. Which is a propellant towards excellence, but not freedom, not mastery. It might get you really good, and it did in your case. One of the things that happens with trauma is that there's an alone experience that happens. And so you could physically be in the presence of violence or abuse in their most grounded level you don't matter okay so let's do physical violence for a moment you you are the punching bag you are the the way to relieve the abusers sense of

agitation irritation suffering so you don't matter, they matter more. And so when we feel that sense that we don't matter and there's a separation and an objectification of the experience, that aloneness is where the trauma sits, that feeling that I don't matter. And what you did was quite remarkable from that place is that you took that sense of aloneness and sense of need of being in control, not out of control because the other person's in control. And you used it in highlighting, literally, to you are needing to be in control to be safe. Therein lies like the propellant for you. It sounds like healing doesn't happen until you calibrate with another person where they see you and they understand and you're vulnerable enough to share with them what it's like to

honestly be you and what it was like to be you then. And so there's this calibration that happens just by being in the presence of another person that their commitment is to see you and feel you and understand you and want to support you and understand a new record was going to be a fruitless aim, but it was sitting with another person. In this case, I think it was a psychologist or a therapist. Yes. I ended up, you know, I kind of initiated self-work by myself, but I knew that I needed someone, a professional to help me that, you know, there was only so far I could go. But I feel like, you know, during those few years where I wasn't highlining much, and I was kind of addressing these injuries that were

a direct result from going so hard in the sport, I started to kind of like build an internal sense of myself that I didn't have before. And so when I did begin highlining again, after kind of a two year break of not really wanting to highlight and sort of doing it occasionally because it was my job and I would have a job to go do. I started to change my relationship to the activity, whereas in the past it was always about getting across it, right? Succeeding, succeeding, succeeding. Achievement, achievement, success. Yeah, right. Accomplishment. And now when I'm on a high line, I remind myself that you are here for this moment.

Each moment on the line is why I'm there. I'm not on the line to get to the other side. I'm on the high line because of each moment. And that's why I fell in love with highlighting, right? Was that, that feeling out there being in space, being absolutely present and feeling a sense of focus that is really rare to experience in life where nothing else matters. It's like everything melts away. And the only thing that matters is that moment. And so it was like, yeah, I love how you're describing this because, um, adrenaline based environments where you have to gear up to key up, to be deeply focused because there are consequences are forcing

function to be in the present moment. Very rarely do they transcend deep wisdom, transcend into like the richness of life, but it is a forcing mechanism to be in the present moment more often. You can get it on sitting on the pillow, you know, meditating, which I spent ample time there. And you can also get it from environments of consequence where it's forcing you to be right here, right now. So how did you square your practice of being present with what it seems to be a sense of insight and potentially wisdom? How did you crosswalk those two? I think just going through that transition of sort of separating my identity from my achievements and who I was in the sport and kind of humbling myself in a way. And then also just re-evaluating, really re-evaluating why I do it at all and realizing

that I gain so much from those moments on the high line. I gain much more from the process than I do from successfully stepping onto the cliff on the other side of the line. You know, it's the process of being out there that is the most rewarding and what teaches me the most about myself. So let's drill into the process of freeing your identity from your performance aspects. Just dive into that. It doesn't need to be buttoned up, but how did you free yourself from defining yourself based on what you do and how good you are into the new faith, which I want to understand.

I would say that one of the main ways is to let go of expectations of myself. So part of that rock bottom I experienced was having these crazy expectations of myself. And then I was injured and I thought I should still meet those expectations. It made zero sense logically. But, you know, we're not always logical. So now it's like I approach a high line with curiosity, not an expectation. And it doesn't mean I don't set a goal. You know, maybe the goal is I'm going to try as hard as I can, or I'm going to walk to that spot on the high line today, or I'm going to do this many runs. But the goal isn't something I'm attached to. It's more like, huh, I'm attached to. It's more like, huh, I'm going to see what it feels like today. I'm going to see how my mind is today. And I'm going to see how this technique works today. And I have this whole arsenal of techniques

that I use for navigating my mind while I'm on a high line. And generally they're all techniques that I've developed over the last, you know, 14 years, but it used to be about... Come on, don't hold back now. No, don't hold back now. What are some of those good ones? Okay. Some of them, well, I already mentioned using logic, but I don't even hardly use that one anymore because typically the lines I walk, I've set them up. So I automatically trust them because I know what I'm doing. I really like this. Probably the most useful technique for me is to get in my body. So obviously we can be so cerebral and analytical and be kind of lost in this mental chatter. So for example, I will really bring my awareness and attention to the feeling of my foot as it touches the slack line that I'm walking on and what it feels like with my hand in space.

And even just the slight breeze, I might feel like caressing my hand as it goes by. I mean, really- Or the sun on your shoulder. Yeah. It sounds super cliche, but it's like, it gets me in my body and it gives my mind something to focus on instead of that chatter. Yeah. Okay. Love that. And then how do you do that on the cliff's edge? Prior to getting on the high line? Yeah. I'm assuming you warm yourself up and you get into your body before. Yeah, definitely. Definitely.

Um, I, I sit there on the edge. I might have tied the leash to my harness already. If I'm wearing a leash, if I'm not wearing a leash, then I'm just sitting there on the edge. Um, and I take very deep breaths and I'm sure you have ran into the breathing component and people you've talked to and activities you work with. Breathing is key. It is, I would say it's impossible to do any of this without being a good breather.

And the short, shallow breaths that we take just elevate all of those stress responses. But just by taking super deep, calm breaths, kind of relaxing my body before I go forward is super useful to me to just to listen to myself and to know if if that's the decision I want to make. You know, like, if it feels like breathing is a way to get into your body. Yeah, sorry, please continue. Oh, no, no, no. Go for it. I might just ramble about breathing. Okay. So breathing is a way to get into your body. Let's stay here. So it's a way to get into your body and it's a way to downregulate. It's a way to quiet yourself. And then I think where you're just pointing to is back to the, where we started the intuition versus fear responses is to try to open those two up to better understand what are the signals that are coming from the bottom up.

So bottom up signals like – well, actually, let me not confuse bottom up, top down. So you're just able to listen to the signals. And so let's get into the mechanics of breathing. Are you breathing? Are you opening your rib cage? So this is how I do it. Let me just, so I opened my rib cage, not in so that my lungs can drop down. So I've got more space so that I can get a deep breath from the bottom of my lungs and then fill all the way up into my back. Now that that's a very technical thing that I'm trying to do. Is yours technical or is it more casual? And it's just like, let me settle in long exhale, settle in. I would say mine is more casual because I

haven't studied breathing. I've really just learned about breathing via highlighting. But mine is kind of a combination of rib expansion and belly breath. Yeah. So it's like an opening. So it's kind of like opening. And then I feel like the breath out is very important. It's like, I really need to let the full breath out because that last moment relaxes my body. And there's two things that happen for me on the exhale. One, when I'm keyed up, it's like a jagged exhale and it's not smooth. And it's not until I can find that smooth exhale where I know I'm really close to being in the slipstream. And so like big inhale, do you take an extra sip like to open it

up or hold or do anything at the top before you exhale? Sometimes. And then as you exhale, you were talking about the end of the exhale, like you're working to get all the way to the end. And when you get to the end, do you pause there or is it more of like a quick transition? So you pause. Pause for like half a beat. Half a beat. Yeah, sometimes I'll pause for like a full cycle. So if my inhale is say five seconds and my exhale is 10 seconds, I might pause for another five or even 10 seconds, like an extended. To me, there's such a rich amount of information in that pause. But how are you listening between intuition and fear?

Like tell me about that knowing or that sensing. I don't think I could fully say I even know. It's more like I'm trying to lean. You know, like I think if I can really fully relax my whole body, then that feels kind of like a knowing that it's a choice I want to make, that I want to solo that line. And if I maintain some tension and that tension, I can't really get that tension to go away while I'm sitting on the cliff before I even get on the line. Sometimes that kind of can lead me to lean more into maybe today's not a good day. Oh, interesting.

Maybe there's something about today. So if you can't work with the fear, if you can't have a relationship with the keyed up nature that is supposed to take place, if you're going to do something really important, whether it's death risk or life risking or not, if you can't work with it, then you're saying, huh, maybe my intuition is just saying, yeah, normally I can work with my fear, but today something else is happening. There's something that's unavailable to me. And if I can't quiet it down, I can't get into my body, maybe for another day. Is that how it works? Yes, I would say so. And it's important to differentiate that

this is something with a super high consequence. And so I'm not willy-nilly about it at all. I want to live a long life. However, if I was having a similar experience with something that didn't have death as a risk, like let's say it was a job interview or just some other situation that made me nervous, I might kind of persevere through that, you know, even if I didn't feel like I could totally relax. Sometimes you still have to step up to the plate in life. I love that. It's not, you know, it doesn't mean that you can always just walk away because it doesn't feel right. But in the case of free soloing, which is totally something I elect to do, that there's absolutely no real need to do in life, that's a situation where I'm going to err on the side of caution.

And now, one final word from our sponsors. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day. And Cozy Earth has become a new part of that. Their bedding, it's incredibly soft, like next level soft. And what surprised me the most is how much it actually helps regulate temperature.

I tend to run warm at night, and these sheets have helped me sleep cooler and more consistently. And what surprised me the most is how much it actually helps regulate temperature. I tend to run warm at night and these sheets have helped me sleep cooler and more consistently, which has made a meaningful difference in how I show up the next day for myself, my family, and our team here at Finding Mastery. It's become part of my nightly routine. Throw on their lounge pants or pajamas, crawl into bed under their sheets, and my nervous system starts to settle. They also offer a 100-night sleep trial and a 10-year warranty on all of their bedding, which tells me, tells you, that they believe in the long-term value of what they're creating. If you're ready to upgrade your

rest and turn your bed into a better recovery zone, use the code FINDINGMASTERY for 40% off at CozyEarth.com. That's a great discount for our community. Again, the code is FINDINGMASTERY for 40% off at CozyEarth.com. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Caldera Lab. I believe that the way we do small things in life is how we do all things. And for me, that includes how I take care of my body. I've been using Caldera Lab for years now. And what keeps me coming back, it's really simple. Their products are simple and they reflect the kind of intentional living that I want to build into every part of my day. And they make my morning routine really easy. They've got some great new products I think you'll be interested in. A shampoo, conditioner, and a hair serum.

With Caldera Lab, it's not about adding more. It's about choosing better. And when your day demands clarity and energy and presence, the way you prepare for it matters. If you're looking for high quality personal care products that elevate your routine without complicating it, I'd love for you to check them out. Head to calderalab.com slash finding mastery and use the code finding

mastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash finding mastery. And now back to the conversation. Very cool. Yeah. Now it does change when you've got a couple of million dollars on the line. Somebody's invested in this filming, you know, sponsorships need something in the can by whatever. And you know, there's people and eyeballs watching. Yeah, it does. It does change it. And I wish, I wish I did. I wish I was immune to it. And I was a true, like, you know, sage in that way, but I feel it too. And so, and I spent a lot of time thinking, writing. How can you not? So how do you work with that? You know, one of the, I guess one method is that, you know, there's two people that I've started sort of this project with, you know, we haven't sold this to anyone.

We've we've only pitched it to a couple of networks, too. So we haven't signed anything like there's no pressure yet. Well, there is pressure in the sense of we need to go gather content, right, to make the pitch. But I told them, hey, there's a chance we'll go out to film and today, that day is not the day. Like, you all need to be prepared for me to walk away if it's not right. I'm not willing to risk my life for a movie, you know? And I think that sort of laying that groundwork and making sure I have a supportive group who are not going to pressure me and really having people who understand what I'm doing and understand the need for me to not be pressured is what makes me feel safe enough to do that type of project. I love that.

And I have to be okay with it, which is hard too. It's one thing to have your team be supportive. It's another thing for you one thing to like have your team be supportive. It's another thing for you to be okay with walking away. That takes incredible strength to do. And so bravo for navigating it so far so well. I want to go back to a solo, right? And you picked the one, but just bring me into it. Describe to me what it's like, you know, at the cliff's edge, you found that sense of calm. You've done some breathing. You've worked with your inner dialogue. You feel like you are in your body. You stand up and then bring

me into a particular environment. Where are you? What does that first step look like? What do you do before you take a first step? Do you make eye contact? Do you hug other people? Do you do a prayer? Bring me into that experience, full-bodied experience. I definitely don't have a ritual. I definitely don't hug anyone. That would feel far too foreboding to me. I want to keep it light and I don't want it to be this big, serious, scary thing. And so if I were to act like it was my last moment on earth, that's what it would become. It's important for me to still kind of view it as a skill that I've honed and developed and to believe and trust in myself and my ability to do it safely. But typically I'm sitting on the edge of the cliff. I've gotten to that kind of calm feeling

and I want to solo the line and I feel capable of it. So highliners usually scoot out about two or three feet from the edge of the cliff onto the highline and then stand up on the line from there. And that's so that when you're wearing a leash and a harness, if you were to fall, you wouldn't swing into the cliff. So obviously it's unnecessary to do it when soloing. However, it's what I'm used to doing. So I still do that while solo. So I scoot out a few feet away from the cliff and I get into a position where I'm about to stand up on the line from a sitting position. And that's kind of the moment where it clicks because scooting out on the line is very easy physically. So it doesn't feel scary.

It's when I get into the sitting position, I'm about to stand up. My heart is pounding right now. Like my breathing, my breathing has changed. Take some, take some breaths, Mike. I just scooted out there with you. Okay. I'm imagininged out there with you. Okay. I'm imagining a 3,000 foot gap and this beautiful horizon. There's a few people behind me and my ass is out there now with you.

Okay. So it's not really, but my imagination is with you. What are you wearing in this environment? I typically wear whatever I wear to Highline, which is maybe some hiking pants and a t-shirt or a long sleeve, depends on the weather. You've taken your stilettos off. I've seen those images. Not soloing in high heels. You've Highlined in high heels. That's pretty amazing. I have. I have Highlined in high heels.

Okay. I encourage people to go to your Instagram to check it out. Okay. So you've scooted your ass out there and it's on. Yes, it's on. And I really feel the depth beneath me in that moment. I can feel how high I am off the ground. It's almost like, you know, I'm so used to that space with a harness and a leash. And I've done it so much and for so long.

But when I'm solo, it almost like takes me back to the first times I was on a highline. It really, I feel the exposure and the height all over again. I don't feel the same level of fear that I did when I first tried highlighting, but I do feel a bit of that, like urge to be gripped, you know, like a little bit of tension in my body. Like it wants to resist, you know, my, my body is definitely saying like, what are you doing? So fear, right? So you're working with fear and then are you, are you using, so there's two basic strategies. There's physiological and psychological. Are you using both or primarily one or the other? Are you talking your way through it or are you using the physiological cues to breathe and ground and be in your body? I mean, breathing kind of happens

the whole way across the line. However, I've done most of the physiological, you know, navigating of fear on the cliff before I get on the line. And so once I'm on the line, it becomes much more of like physical techniques to navigate it. So I try to lock in to that kind of muscle memory of how to stand up and how to take steps and how to stay stable. And so even though I have that kind of tension arising or a bit of a heart flutter or even a slight vibration in my body from adrenaline and fear, I am taking deep breaths and I'm locking into the progression of the physical steps I take. So I'm getting into the position of standing up. I'm setting my eyes on the end of the line where I'm focusing on. And then I am just trying to breathe and commit to it. It's so much about

commitment. What do you say to yourself? Is it like, you got this, this is what you do, get your shit together? I say breathe. I tell myself to breathe. Okay, so you go technical. I say calm. You go technical, right? Calm, breathe. Okay, so it's not, you're not having your back.

You are being technical and directional with your self-talk. Yes. Because if I can lock into the physical endeavor, then the rest of the fear kind of fades to the background. It's forced to, because we can only focus on one thing really at a time. And so you're driving your attention to something very technical. Okay. And then cognitively, you said you drive your attention to the end, the end point. Now, are you, are you picking up, is it narrow external at this point? Like you're picking up the scraping on the metal hook or the fabric of the, of the, the slack line, or is it more general? Is it a little bit more open in your cognitive direction?

There's definitely kind of a heightened sense of awareness. So I do feel like I hear everything a little more clearly. But it's like I feel like so much of my focus is on staying calm, on breathing slowly, and just having a rhythm out there. I'm not trying to dwell in that space. I'm not trying to push it to a higher risk level. I'm trying to just feel totally calm and stable and just kind of float across the line. That's sort of the goal when I'm soloing. I love that you added the float. Is there joy or is it more intense? It depends on the solo.

It's not the same every time. Sometimes it's very intense and sometimes it feels so good. And I wish I had more words to describe it. It feels so like I'm in a groove, like the groove I'm supposed to be in, you know, just like, like the puzzle pieces just fitting together. I mean, I call it slipstream flow state, you know, like there's lots of work musicians call it being in the pocket, right. Or some, so it's okay. And it's, it's about equilibrium, right. It's a balanced sport. And so it's like,

everything's in balance. When I have those kinds of perfect solos, it's like my body is in balance. I'm physically in balance, but my mind is in balance too. You don't use the word harmony, use balance. I usually use the word balance, but you could use the word harmony. Okay. And then, so when you, you said commitment, like full commitment, and then how do you muster that? Like what, what are you doing internally? How are you using your thoughts and your mind to, to commit? Positive self-talk mostly. So, you know, obviously this is after I've decided to do it. I've come, I've already committed to going out there to solo. And so then to kind of engage and to commit to standing up and walking, then it's the, you've got this. Okay. So it's calm breathing and then, and then it's, you've got this. You've got this.

You've got this. Yeah. Talking to myself. And I talk out loud to myself. I find that to be far more effective than internally talking to myself. And I listen to music on a Highline too. Oh, okay. So you've got earphones in? Yeah.

What's on the playlist? I have a whole Highline playlist. I don't know if you know the band Grammatic. It's kind of all like electronic music, but with like acoustic elements, but it has a very good rhythm. It's a little bit upbeat. Interesting that you would want that. So is that because when you listen to that music, it helps put you in a particular state? Absolutely. It helps put me in a particular state. It also It helps put me in a particular state.

It also reminds me not to take it too seriously. And I know that sounds counterintuitive when it's soloing, but it's like, it helps me remember that I'm choosing to be there, that I made a choice to be there. Let's dissect. Let's investigate this simple little noxious statement. You got this. Okay. Is it, I got this or you got this? I say you got this to statement. You got this. Okay. Is it, I got this or you got this?

I say you got this. It's interesting, right? It's not I got this. You got this. Okay. So you- Yeah. Third person. Right. Me too. Sometimes I'll be like, come on, Mike. You know, like it's a weird thing that happens. Yeah. Totally. Yeah. Okay. So you got this. Now what gives you the right to say that? How have you earned the right to say you've got this? What do you index that on?

Well, a shit ton of training. Okay. But let me, let me, great. Let me just hear it. Like you got this. Now you can, you can, anybody can say that, but it can be hollow. It can be weak, but okay. But this is one that has to work for you.

And so you say, you got this. What are you backing that up one that has to work for you. And so you say you got this. What are you backing that up with? Years of practice, a lot of successful solos. And another thing that's an important technical detail is that I'm not walking a high line that's at my physical limit solo. So if I can walk a 350 foot high line with a leash, I'm not going to solo that same length if it's difficult for me. I'm going to solo a line that's a tenth of that.

Oh, so not 350 high, 350 long. No, long. So the length of the line is very important because it gets harder the longer it is. And that's basically, I would imagine. Yes. And the line is heavier and it's harder to control and it sways more. Okay. And it takes longer.

You're out there for longer. And so, first of all, I'm, I'm soloing lines that are well within my ability range with a harness. And so I know I can walk them physically easily. That is awesome. So you've got, this comes from me knowing I'm capable. It comes from me knowing I'm capable it comes from me knowing i've soloed successfully and done it for years it comes from me training comes from me

like the last thing i want is to be solo on a high line not knowing if i've got it and have you fallen on a solo i wouldn't do it i have Okay. And I have not pushed that hard. So that's relative. Okay. And in fairness, I didn't, none of us saw you do a four foot line and to get to 40, to get to 400. Like, so you've been doing this a long time and you're very clear that your training has been real, that you've, you've pushed edges. Okay.

So when you say you got this, you mean it. And that is a powerful statement that you can make to yourself. It's not hollow. Yes. It's like, for example, if somebody put a calculus problem in front of me right now, I could not tell myself, you got this, Faith. Ditto. I understand.

Okay, good. You're right. So like that is not, i'm not doing that with highlighting like it's something i've got finding master is brought to you by iris store when it comes to my health i try to approach things with a proactive mindset it's not about avoiding poor health this is about creating the conditions for growth now hair health is one of those areas that often gets overlooked until your hair starts to change. That's when people pay attention. Now, that's why I've been loving iRestore Elite. It's a hands-free red light therapy device that helps stimulate dormant hair

follicles, helps to support regrowth. It's a clinical grade device. It's simple to use. It fits right into the rhythm of my day whether i'm meditating reading prepping for one of our clients here at finding mastery it's really simple now red light therapy has some pretty amazing research behind it when it comes to cellular energy tissue repair inflammation control as well as healing i restore is using those same principles to help your hair thrive. I really like this product. I used it last night.

I use it on a regular basis. They also offer a 12-month money-back guarantee. So if you don't see results, they'll refund you. No questions. I love that. They have real confidence in their product. And because you're a member of the Finding Mastery community, right now they're offering our listeners huge savings on the iRestore Elite.

When you use the code FINDINGMASTERY at iRestore.com slash FINDINGMASTERY. Again, that code is FINDINGMASTERY at iRestore.com slash FINDINGMASTERY for exclusive savings. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Lisa. Sleep is one of the foundational pillars of high performance. There's no arguing that. And when we have great sleep consistently and deeply, we give ourselves the best chance to operate at our best physically, cognitively, emotionally, sleep affects it all. That's why I care about the environment that I sleep in so much. And of course, a great mattress, it matters. One of our teammates here at Finding Mastery has been sleeping on a Lisa mattress for over a year now, and it's made a noticeable difference. They specifically chose one from their chill collection because they sleep hot, something I know many of us can relate to, myself included. What are they reporting back? Fewer wake-ups, deeper rest, and feeling more recovered when they jump into their work here at Finding Mastery. Lisa has several models to choose from. So whether you're a side sleeper, a stomach sleeper, or somewhere in between,

there's a fit designed specifically for you. And what I appreciate most is their purpose. They've donated over 41,000 mattresses to people in need. I love that. So right now you can get 25% off all mattresses at lisa.com plus an extra $50 off when you use the code finding mastery at checkout. That's lisa, L-E-E-S-A.com. The promo code is finding mastery for 25% off.

And then plus an extra $50 on us because quality sleep is just too important to leave to chance. This is awesome, Faith. Thank you for bringing me inside the mind and the body of one of the world's best. Okay, now let's describe finishing the solo. Okay, so you are, this is actually in my experience, there's two very dangerous moments. Three, actually I'll add one. One is going when you're not ready. Two is let's use your kind of thing. Like you're in the last one third of, of the thing. So you're almost there,

but you're not quite there. And there's like this, there's this distraction, which is like, oh, I got it. Or, um, there's just a break, a distraction because you're so close. Right. Okay. And then the third is within three days of completing something that is death defying life risking. There's a window there that I've experienced with people that, you know, that's where they drive drunk or that's where they, you know, speed with the seatbelt off or because they feel like they're Superman, superwoman that invincible. So there's a three day glow to three day glow post. So I, we just understood the first, what is it like towards the end for you? I would say, you know, and this has all changed over the course of my career, but my most recent solo, the end is the hardest part. Not only is the line

changing because it's getting to the end, so it's getting tighter as it gets closer to the anchor where it's secured, but there's also the moment of how am I going to finish this line? Am I going to sit down on it at the very end or am I going to step onto the cliff? And sometimes the high line itself can, you know, as your weight stands on it, it rubs on the rock edge. And so it moves a little bit differently. And so it's almost like you have to just adapt to it at the end. know, quarter of the highline solo is to stay calm and not rush, to keep breathing, to stay in control. Like I'm not trying to leap onto the cliff to be out of the realm of risk.

I need to just stay locked in and stay in that flow. And then that moment of stepping onto the cliff is quite a sensation. I'm sure you know all the chemicals that are being released at that moment to explain it, but it really is like a, Oh, like a wave just washing over me. And it's both a mixture of relief and kind of euphoria too, of like being in this intense moment and then like passing through it. Um is the what is what is the so those are the feelings relief is a feeling and euphoria is a feeling totally and um do you do you ever get surprised by sadness i have not so i've seen with folks that have like risked it all, whether it goes right or wrong. Like, well, actually let me start over.

I've seen people who have risked everything. And then when it's done, the relief is so overwhelming that there's tears, there's a sadness with it. And we call it clearing the tube. And it's almost like we need to give some permission for people to feel everything in that moment because there's so much going on. And there's other, there's Luke Akins, one of my friends who you might know, when he's about to go do something where his life is on the line, he is like, high fives and like, see you guys in a little bit. Like he does not want to play it like this is a moment. He's like, why would I do that? Like, I totally believe that I'm not crazy and I'm not going to go do something stupid. Like I, I am committing to going do something. It's

dangerous. I get it. And I'm not being sloppy, but like, let's go. As opposed to, he says, if I ever get, give you that look, Mike, cause I've done a bunch of projects with them. If I ever give you that look like, all right, man, I really appreciate you. He says, please don't let me go. Like throw the flag. Like that's not what we're here for. Totally. Yeah. Okay. So at the end, so you've got, what do your legs feel like? Oh, they feel fine. Actually. It's, it's almost like an immediate calm because that kind of vibration of I'm at risk right now, it just is gone all of a sudden, as soon as my feet are on the cliff again, it's like that intense adrenaline feeling because you know, when I wear a harness and a leash on a high line, a lot of times I don't

get adrenaline in my body anymore because I'm so desensitized to it. But if I'm walking without a leash solo, the adrenaline is unavoidable. Okay. So you're on mother nature and, and I don't want to give you any prompt here. What do you do in that moment? I breathe out like big breath. And I'm not a very, I'm not the type of person who's going to like jump up and down or shout. Like I shout occasionally in life at the end of a high line, but soloing, it's more like gratitude, I guess. Like I'm grateful that I made another good decision about soloing and I'm grateful to be there. And I'm just kind of like, I'm smiling, you know, but I'm pensive. I'm a bit thoughtful. And where do you put your attention? Is it internal? Is it external? Depends. Depends if I'm around a bunch of people. I think if I'm with people and they just watched me solo, a lot of times they're nervous. In the past, when I was with people who are also soloing,

we were all just sort of casual about it. Like, yeah, good job. Yeah. High five. Sort of like your friend. But if I'm with people who don't highline or don't solo, usually it's quite intense for them. I mean, they're watching me, scared to breathe. So I usually turn to them and smile like it's okay. Interesting that you're taking care of them. Okay. So the first experience is-

Good woman, right? How about it? So your first experience is you're taking care, you look inward and you're feeling the feelings. And then you go outwards and sounds like a default is to take care of other people. And you slipped in the woman thing. I want to come back to that. That's a cool note to come back to.

And then so then you're taking care of them. You're not jumping up and down. Hoo-ha, look at me. It's none of that. Do you look back? Do you look up? Do you look down? what what do you do after you've connected with your people yeah i i definitely look out a bit it's

it's almost like i have this kind the visuals are kind of glowing it's like there's a bit of a a glow to everything after a solo. Like, everything just seems a little more vibrant for a moment, you know? That would make sense neurologically, spiritually, psychologically. It would make perfect sense. Okay. What is your relationship with death? What is your relationship with life? I'm afraid of death. I'm afraid of death. I would say I would put myself in a normal parameter of fear of death. I don't want to die early. I would like to live a long life. However, I would say that the majority of my life, I've been more afraid of people I love dying than of myself dying.

As a kid, I was quite morbid. I would sign my name in every house we lived in because I was sure I was going to die early. And I wanted some like relic of my existence to exist in all these houses we lived in. Where did that come from? That's interesting. Where did that come from? I don't know. I really don't know. I think I was just kind of a morbid kid. I thought about death as a kid quite a bit. I can't imagine how we could possibly string together observing or

experiencing abuse and morbid, you know, a morbid, you know, like I. Totally. Yeah. Okay. So, yeah. All right. So one psychologist to, are you a risk taker or a risk manager? I would consider myself a risk manager. Not a risk taker? I take some risks. Super interesting. But I would say I take manageable risks.

That's right. I don't like risks that aren't manageable. So for example, I'm really not attracted to driving fast in cars, like super fast, you know? Yeah. Makes sense. So, so let's go to like, uh, just force rank these two. Um, my loved ones dying before me or dying early, me dying early, and me living a life that is dull. So you want me to rank those and the ones that I'm the most afraid of? Yeah, which is the biggest fear and which is the smallest fear? A dull, boring life, loved ones dying, and me dying early. Biggest fear is definitely loved ones dying.

Second fear is a dull life, and third would be me dying early? Biggest fear is definitely loved ones dying. Second fear is a dull life. And third would be me dying early. Okay. I doubt you're surprised. No, it makes perfect sense to me. Yeah. So living a boring life is worse than dying early. It's not a black and white question or answer. I mean, if you're happy in your dull life, then there's absolutely nothing wrong with it. Do you imagine that to be the case ever for anyone? I don't know. Some people really love security and knowing and having a predictable life and they're okay. I mean, I guess, you know, I've run a, I've run a Highline festival for women for, for 14 years. And so when I started out running that festival, I, I was trying to encourage all the women to Highline the same way I did,

which was to throw themselves at it as hard as they could. And over the years, I realized how different we all are and how differently we respond to risk and pain and difficulty and all the different myriad of challenges in life. And I realized that I couldn't expect people to behave the same way I did because it wasn't their path. For some women, they wanted to come and their challenge was just to sit on the high line. That was it. And that was so intense for them just to sit there and not even stand up that it was enough. It was enough for them. And I had never been like that. I needed more.

I needed to really go as far as I could. I needed to really find my limit. And their limit was just much closer than mine was. And so it's sort of how I developed acceptance for people who live what I would think of as a dull life. But for them, it's secure, it's stable, and they're happy with it. They don't want the chaos of unpredictability, you know, whereas I loved that. The world is really unpredictable. So it is a hard way to go through life not wanting or being against the grain of what is the natural order. And so maybe we had a brilliant scientist on that made the case, Robert Sapolsky from Stanford, that made the case that now there's

perfect order. Like everything is actually determined. And if we just knew better how things would work, of course, we'd understand that you uniquely are highlighting, like soloing. And I think that it's not that way. And that's a good discussion for anyone that wants to take a look at the difference between free will and determinism. Sapolsky's conversation. I'm imagining you're saying, no, I've got a high agency in free will. I'm imagining that that's your orientation. Yes and no. I mean, I would agree with him just to some degree, only in regards to, I think that there's some predetermined aspects of us in our genetics. And obviously I didn't choose the trauma that I experienced growing up,

but I think that trauma diverted me to certain paths or made things more attractive. So in that regard, I didn't choose to be interested in these kind of intense experiences. Something really fascinating about highlining, I met so many highliners who were former addicts. It was wild. I started highlighting in Europe. And so I didn't meet that many former addicts over there. But when I was living in California, like three out of the six dudes I was highlighting with had all been addicted to drugs. And I just found it really fascinating. And I started to think like, huh. What is this? Interesting. Interesting that this would be attractive to people who also have addiction problems.

Speaking of like the psychology of it, if we knew what you knew, if we knew about the psychological skills required to thrive, which skills would we be investing in? Was that your first answer? Breathing? Definitely. I was, I was, I was either going to be I'm so sorry. You know, the long exhale was so brilliant. I just had to step on it. There's so sorry. Yeah. No, but, but seriously, you were kind of accurate brilliant. I just had to step on it. They're so sorry. Yeah. No, but seriously, you were kind of accurate because I was going to say like breathing. I truly believe if we all took three deep breaths before any intense experience in life, we would manage our lives so much better. I do it regularly and sometimes I forget and I succumb to anxiety and stress just like anyone else. But there are days where I am super stressed about something.

And if I can remind myself just to pause and take those three deep breaths, I'm so much better at approaching that stressful thing or situation. The other thing I would say is, and it's the thing I learned over the course of my career, was talking to ourselves kindly. So I think a lot of us grew up with this idea of like, you know, I have to get rid of these parts of myself. Like I hate these parts of myself. And now I am approaching those parts of myself with kindness. Like it's there for a reason. It's trying to protect me. It cares about me. I'm sure you're familiar with internal family systems and these different modalities of therapy, but it was so cool when I discovered those because they sort of lined up

with what I'd already been discovering on my own, but there was a better, more eloquent way of explaining them. And same with the NDR therapy. For folks that are not familiar with IFS, can you explain your relationship with it? IFS is called internal family systems, and it's a type of therapy. And part of what's great about it is it's one you can do with yourself, but it kind of basically breaks all these parts of us into characters.

So say one that's personal to me is procrastination, right? I've always struggled with procrastination. And so you kind of see that procrastinator as a part of you. And it's either a part that's trying to protect a deeper part of you, or it is the part itself. But you learn to kind of see those parts of yourself as a family, and they're not enemies, and you work with them to heal them and sort of understand them and, and give them more healthy roles. Um, and yeah, that's kind of what I started doing with highlighting before I was even aware of, of that type of therapy. Um, but like now when I'm dealing with fear or negative self-talk, I literally approach it

with the same method. I say, Hey, fear, I see you. Like, I know you're trying to keep me safe and you're just worried about me. And like, I know this is scary. It's like, we're so high off the ground. This is ridiculous. Like, you're totally right. You're right that this is scary. But hey, I really want to do this thing. And so what if you and I do it together? Like, what if you come with me and I'll just like put you in my little backpack and we'll do it together. And so I'm, I hear you and I understand you, but like, like, let's just try it. And that has been so much more effective than being like, shut up fear, I'm gonna beat you down and get rid of you. And it sounds so cliche these days to talk about like self-love and kindness, but

man, so many of us don't know how to be kind to ourselves. And it's actually far more effective. Oh, the relationship that you build with yourself and the parts of yourself and the way you're describing it. One, it sounds really healthy. And so I'm a fan of that approach, accept, commit, more Aikido than karate. And the goal is not to have no fear, it's to get to know your fear and to work with your fear. And I love what you just did there.

And so can I shift gears and just do some like kind of rapid fire, some quick hits and just kind of see what pops up for you? Sure. It's like a little bit of a Rorschach, if you will. But okay. So in a sentence or two or a word or a handful of words, your definition of success? Being at peace with yourself. When you think of a successful person, who do you think of? Ooh, I think of a friend of mine who was a high school teacher of mine who seems very

at peace with himself. That you're going to say yourself. That's awesome that you had somebody else. It's a hard question, believe it or not. It's a really hard question. Winning is? Winning is living.

Failure is? An opportunity to learn. It all comes down to? You. The good life is marked by? Love and community. Love and community. I am?

Am I really supposed to just say what comes to mind? Because I was just going to say faith. Of course. That is so good. My purpose is? To share what I know. What wrongs do you want to set right? Nothing comes quickly. What rule do you need permission to break? To play. This was my year of play. That was my entire focus for this year. 2023 was the year of play. And I think I'm going to rinse and repeat. I want to play more next year as well.

Oh, we could talk hours about play. Yeah, that is awesome. It is so hard for me to play. Especially your unique environment growing up with control and fear. I totally get that as well. I love that. Okay. If you had a boat and you had the chance to name the boat, what would you name it? Sherbert. Sherbert? I don't know. That's just what came to my mind. I have no idea why.

Your relationship with Sherbert? That is hilarious. No, not at all. That's just- That was just there. It just happened. It just came to my mind. I have no idea why. You have a relationship with Sherbert? That is hilarious. No, not at all. That's just. That was just there. It just happened. It just popped into my head. It just popped to the surface. I was just there.

Okay. And then just round us out. If you could sit with any master, with us or not with us, who would that master be? Where would you want to sit with them? And if you only had one question, what would it be? I still, I almost always go back to Lynn Hill, who was a pioneer in the sport of rock climbing, not just for women, but for people. She was the first person to free climb the nose on El Capitan before any man did it. So she's just such an icon to me

and has been a hero for a long time. I would love to sit with her in Yosemite Valley where much of her iconic history is rooted in. And I would love to ask her what she's learned over the course of her life. Fear is? An emotion. I love the simplicity. And what I hope for women is? Equality. How far are we in your estimate from that? From equality? I would say 300 years. Whoa. What does that mean? I know. What does that mean? I would say we're 300 years from actual equality.

Oh, you're breaking my heart. I just read this. I know. I know. But there's so few things have really changed. We had kind of rapid change and then we've just sort of stalled. And now we've actually moved a little bit backwards in some regards. I just read such an interesting thing about why fashion changed a lot during certain periods.

And then over the last like 30 years hasn't changed much. Like obviously you can find differences between like fashion in 1999 and now, but it's not that different versus the previous 25, 30 years changed a lot. And one of the theories was that socially we haven't changed that much. And that just really hit home for me because, I mean, as a woman, I mean, almost every single woman I know has been sexually assaulted. Almost every woman I know or every single woman I know experiences sexism on a regular basis. I still have to, you know, fight for space at the table. So, and I'm a guide. I'm in a male-dominated industry as a climbing and highline guide.

And so I'm, I'm regularly faced with it. I had such an interesting, um, the month of October was very busy for me. And I, I guided highlining for several retreats. Um, I run a business called Elevate Outdoors here in Moab and I guided almost all men. It was so fascinating because I've been targeting women, right? Like there's not very many female guides. Like if you hire me, you're guaranteed to have a female guide, but I repeatedly was guiding men. And it was cool in the sense that like, this is a neat power dynamic. I like that a woman is in this role, but damn it. Why am I guiding so many men? Why aren't there more women interested in these things still?

And as someone who's run a women's highline meeting for 14 years, I've sort of had a bit of insight into the growth of women in the sport. And yes, the numbers have grown, but we're far from equal. It's still probably 10 to 1. My wife on a regular basis. And it's a balanced sport. And it's a balanced sport. How about it? Yeah.

My wife on a regular basis um she's latina and she says look if you she she's very clear on the pay scale in the u.s she goes i'm at the bottom like like you know and then and then she's also um very clear about some states in the union have decided what what women can do and cannot do with their body. And she's like, I don't know what we're doing. Like that feels like a, like a radical step back. And do you have that same position or.

Yes. The fact that my body is on a ballot shows you how much inequality we still have. No. And, and I feel the same about LGBTQ rights. Nobody's body should be on a ballot. No group of men, but no group of people should be making decisions about other people's bodies as a political move. I think that's just wild.

So yeah, I've never heard it said that way. So that's a new thought for me, is that bodies should not be on a ballot. Help me understand that a little bit more. I mean, can you imagine if people you didn't even know were making laws in a faraway place about what you could do with your body? I'm completely down with you. So the fact that it's on a ballot is what you're saying is like, we're so far off that it's actually made its way to a ballot. Yeah, but it's been, but our, our bodies have been on ballots for a long time. Like what we do with our bodies has been a part of politics for a long time. And to me, that shows how archaic and old fashioned we are. The fact that we don't have

full autonomy over our own bodies. What are your, how are you contributing to the solution? Like, what are the ways that you are? It sounds like you're very active here. So I, and I didn't mean that to come off in a weird way. Like I, I earnestly want to understand the actions you're taking. No, I'm happy to talk about it. When Roe v. Wade was overturned, I live in a rural town in Utah, and there's no abortion access here directly. Fortunately, there is still abortion access in Salt Lake City, but they're trying to overturn it, the legislatures are. So I helped found a group called Moab Abortion and Reproductive Rights Network. And we've been doing various fundraisers and just sort of spreading awareness about the current legal

situation with abortion in Utah and also distributing information on where people can still access abortion resources. We mostly are doing fundraisers and then funneling the funds to the Utah Abortion Fund, which is an already established group that directly pays for people to access abortions. So we weren't trying to reinvent that type of organization, but we wanted to take some sort of action. And so fundraising and giving them funds has been what we found to be the most effective. And they often send us really great reproductive care kits, which we distribute into the community, which has like Plan B in it and condoms and lube and just pamphlets about abortion access. So that's what I'm doing.

Aside from the very paltry, but still necessary blasting on social media. I want to encourage people to go check out your social platform. One, it's like, it's just the images are awesome. And so your, your platform and your experiences are so rich. And, and I want to circle back. You said almost everyone I know are almost all the women I know. Actually, according to the National Sexual Violence Resource Center, which is an online source that you can check out, 81% of women experience some sort of sexual harassment and or assault in their lifetime. So they're collapsing harassment and assault. Faith, what a fun conversation. A nice sobering moment at the end about the reality of a different type of consequence. And thank you for working from the inside out,

being able to teach and share how you've become you and what you're working on even further. So I just want to say thank you. Thank you. I would love to tell people about my guiding business if they want to try highlighting. Oh, yeah. Let's go. Where are we taking people? So I have a business called Elevate Outdoors Guiding here in Moab, Utah, and it's the first Highline guiding business in the entire nation. I'm really proud of it. No one is guiding Highlining except for me.

And I've designed a system with an overhead rope as well as a Highline that enables people with no Slackline experience to walk out into the void. So Mike, I expect you to come do it someday. I'm loving this. It's incredible. It's in Moab. It's in Moab, Utah. And most recently, I was really honored to donate a Highline session to a bunch of veterans for a group called 22 Jumps. I don't know if you've heard of them, but they're kind of a skydiving, base jumping group

that does fundraisers for veterans. And so it was really powerful to work with a group of guys who are all veterans and just, you know, have their own fucked up relationships to fear. And we're able to kind of experience it in a different way, in a healthy way, in a way that they sought out. I'm just so excited about the potential of taking people on high lines and what it can help people experience

regarding their own fear and their own mind and how they've navigated fear historically. I think I'm going to take you up on this. So I'm very passionate about it. Yeah, no. Please do. For real. So two-part question.

Do you work with teams? It'd be fun to have the whole Finding Mastery team come out and do some work with you. Is it team-based? Absolutely. It can be, yes. And if it's individual-based, what is the average price range that I'm thinking about or anybody? So the rate kind of changes depending on how big the group is. So it's a day and a half of work for me because I have to set up the day before because it's a lot of equipment.

However, if it's three or more people, it's $4.50 a person. But that includes almost a whole day out there and usually walking the line more than one time. Great. And so we get ourselves there. Hotel or camping? Is it one or the other? Is it a choice? Yeah.

You can camp or there's a lot of different hotels in Moab. It's a tourist town. There's Airbnbs as well. And then, yeah, it's easiest to rent a car here. It's much easier if you have your own transportation. I can transport up to four people in my work vehicle, but usually people transport themselves. Faith, we just might see you in 2024 in Utah. I hope so. Yeah. Starting in spring is a great time to come. I'm fired up about it. And I want to encourage our community to go check it out. And it'd be really fun to have, you know, it'd be great if our community, you know,

stood up and said, I want to go test my limits. I want to go get into that uncomfortable state. I want to figure out how my mind works under fear. And it'd be great if Finding Mastery community kind of booked you out for the entire 2024. How about it? I would love it. Yes. It sounds like my target audience.

Yes. So it's like I want people who are curious about fear and want to experience it and navigate it and have a healthy relationship to it. Is this – one more time. Your website is? ElevateOutdoorsGuiding.com. Here we go. Faith, I really appreciate you, how you show up in the world. And I'm excited that you shared your insights and wisdom with us today.

Yeah. I hope we have enough. Yeah, very good. All right. I wish you all the best. Thank you. Thanks, Mike. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us.

Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no-cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're listening. Also, if you haven't already, please consider dropping us a review on Apple or Spotify. We are incredibly grateful for the support and feedback. If you're looking for even more insights, we have a newsletter we send out every Wednesday. Punch over to findingmastery.com slash newsletter to sign up. The show wouldn't be possible without our sponsors, and we take our recommendations

seriously. And the team is very thoughtful about making sure we love and endorse every product you hear on the show. If you want to check out any of our sponsor offers you heard about in this episode, you can find those deals at findingmastery.com slash sponsors. And remember, no one does it alone. The door here at Finding Mastery is always open to those looking to explore the edges and the reaches of their potential so that they can help others do the same. So join our community, share your favorite episode with a friend,

and let us know how we can continue to show up for you. Lastly, as a quick reminder, information in this podcast and from any material on the Finding Mastery website and social channels is for information purposes only. If you're looking for meaningful support, which we all need, one of the best things you can do is to talk to a licensed professional. So seek assistance from your health care providers. Again, a sincere thank you for listening. Until next episode, be well, think well, keep exploring.