Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - How To Set a Vision & Live With Passion | AMA Vol. 9 with Dr. Michael Gervais

Episode Date: July 31, 2023

Today, we’re really excited to share the 9th installment of our Ask Me Anything (AMA) series! The purpose behind these conversations - behind these AMAs – is to hear from you… to explore the topics and questions that you have been wrestling with on your path to becoming.The goal is to expand on the themes, lessons, and best-practices we’ve discussed on the Finding Mastery Podcast in order to make them even more applicable to your own life.This time around, our co-host O’Neil Cespedes and I cover some really interesting and insightful territory – we discuss:What makes a psychologically healthy humanHow to engage in open, curious conversations in a polarized worldWhether it’s better to be a generalist or a specialistKeys to parenting in modern timesA best practice you can try out called “The Miracle Question”And so much more_________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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that you need to have that thing to be alive. That's a very dangerous way to go through life. It's limiting. But what if you could bring passion into every environment that you're in? That is possible. Living with passion is a psychological skill. It's not a dependency.

Welcome back, or welcome to another Ask Me Anything on Finding Mastery. And I'm your host, Dr. Michael Gervais, by trade and training a high-performance psychologist. And the purpose behind these conversations, behind these AMAs, is to hear from you, to explore the topics and questions that you've been wrestling with on your path to becoming. Now, the goal is to expand on the themes and lessons and best practices that we've discussed on the Finding Mastery podcast in order to make them even more applicable to your own life. Now, this time around, our co-host, O'Neill Cespedes, we cover some really interesting, insightful territory. We discuss what makes a psychologically healthy human, how to engage in open, curious conversations

in a polarized world, and whether it's better to be a generalist or specialist. Keys to parenting in modern times, a best practice you can try out that's called the miracle question, and of course, so much more. So with that, let's jump right into volume nine of Finding Masteries, Ask Me Anything. We're back, O'Neill. AMA number nine. We're back. How are you doing? I love doing this with you. I love doing this with you too. Yeah. I look forward to it i've had um a heavy kind of

dose of travel lately so it feels really good to be in the studio right now our community is sophisticated and um i can't wait every time i'm kind of on pins and needles to see where this conversation goes because i know that they're thinking deeply about you and your thoughts yeah these questions are amazing let's go This is the best batch so far. They just keep getting better. So Brian, what's up, Brian? Brian's question is, do you think it's a worthwhile pursuit

to spend the majority of our lives trying to be great at doing one thing, whether it's seeing how fast you can run the 100 meters or building a robot? Is focusing on one thing a limited experience or an expansive one? Okay, so that is a rich question because it's squaring up directly with mastery of craft and self. This question is, for me, is really about the mystery of going deep. Let me use it in this

language, like a love affair of going deep into one thing. So it could be problematic if a person only knows one thing and cares nothing about anything else. They only know one thing and then they're limited in every other part of their life. That would be a problem. But if you think about it and frame it like mastery of craft, like you are great at one thing, but you frame it as a love affair, then of trying to uncover or unlock or understand or make sense of something that's very complicated. And you're diving into that with a love affair. What you end up doing is just like in a relationship with my wife, it's like the deeper I go, the more I learn. It's not the longer we go together, the less I learn. I keep learning more about me, about her, and then about humans, about relationships with the planet even, through the relationship that we have with each other.

So the love affair, what ends up taking place is a mystery. There's an unfolding. There's like, I can't wait to see how A and B and C connect together and A, B, C and F connect together. And then what ends up happening, let's say it's violin-ing, you know? And so if that's the one thing that what ends up happening is when you get to a certain point, you start becoming more interested in things that relate to the violin, but are orthogonal. They're different, like maybe rolling or jujitsu or maybe something else. And I'm not suggesting that the path forward is to go deep into jujitsu, but enough that you can say, wow, there's a dexterity, there's a posture that's different, there's a breathing difference,

and all of those can fold back in. So now it's like, how do my hands work in relationship and my posture work in relationship to violin as I've just taken X number, a hundred years of insights from jujitsu and folded it into violin. So there's a love affair is a framing. And I think you can't really understand the depth of the human experience without going all in. And so mastery of craft is really about mastery of self. And mastery of self for me is much about being in a harmonious relationship, embracing all the discord that comes with getting to harmony, a harmonious relationship with, and that's with self, others, the planet,

and now possibly machines. Man, I have a million things going through my head right now as you were talking. You just counted up a million different things. So I wanna make sure I say this correctly and I make sense. So basically you're saying using that one thing that you've honed in on, whether it's the 100 meters or jiu-jitsu or playing the violin,

it's kind of like your avatar that you use to discover mastery of self, but it should expand and go into other things. Oh, that's interesting. Avatar. Yeah, I think that's exactly what I'm saying. Well, I'm saying not, I didn't, I wouldn't say should, because that's like, my antenna always pops on the word should, and psychologists are not funny,

but the joke is stop shoulding on yourself. I thought you were funny. It's not as funny as you, but it works. It was funny. So I wouldn't say should, but what ends up happening is there's a natural pull. Once you get to a certain love affair with the thing that you're trying to understand, like really understand, you want to understand how other masters of craft or how other disciplines can add to the insight. And so do you think we're saying the same thing there?

Yes. But I love that you added avatar. What does that mean? I use avatar as a metaphor saying that this is, you're using this only for a time. Oh, that's interesting. Because you're gonna transfer it to something else. Like if I'm, the violin is my, jujitsu is my avatar.

Right. And this is the thing that I live and I've delved into it. I've been doing it for 20 years. I live it, breathe it. I talk about it, this, that, and the other. And then eventually this epiphany comes upon me and I'm like, I wonder how this translates to surfing

or playing the violin and whatnot. That same sort of discipline and all these things. And now I've how this translates to surfing or playing the violin and whatnot, that same sort of discipline and all these things. And now I've left this avatar and I'm going into the violin avatar for a moment, right? This is still my main body, but I've transferred to this one because I'm noticing that there's a connection in the two, or I'm at least trying to discover if there's a connection. Yeah, so I think I'm doing it orthogonally in a slightly different way. And there's no right or wrong here,

but it's like the jujitsu avatar is interested in surfing, let's say. And then it's not so much that because the end all is to now move into surfing, it could be, but it's to be able to come back home to jujitsu after tasting the shapes that surfing puts you in or the mindsets that it forces on your surfing. So that's how I'm thinking. It's like it

folds back in. So let me come back to this idea of a love affair. Is that it begins with yourself. To first have a sense of a deep sense of love for yourself, a permission to be imperfect, an acceptance of who you are at this moment and the tension about who you're working to become, and having a love affair between those ideas. And so it starts with the way that you care for yourself. And then when you get that thing aligned with the activity or the craft that you're most interested in, now there's a different dimension to this love affair. So I want to make sure that that's clear.

It starts with yourself and then moves externally outward. Then the other part is that I think it would be too narrow-minded to say, just go the one path and only the one path. So I want to be clear about this thought that at some point you might exhaust your interest or if it's like the 100 meter dash, you're going to be slow. You're going to be old. You're going to be out of your potential. It doesn't mean you still can't run, but there might be a natural extension into other things. And it's like a snowball or an undulation or an exponential opportunity when you go into the new thing, because you've fully given yourself to the one craft, to the one thing. And then like, you know, who's a good example,

Apollo Ono. So Apollo Ono is one of the greatest speed skaters to ever get on ice. And he's one of the most winningest athletes at the Olympic level. And he, after the games, I don't know, I can't remember how many, uh, he was at, but he was dominant for a long time. He went into venture capital. He went into, you know, psychology. He's, he's just, he's finding his way, but it's still the framing of a love affair with one thing moves into the next. And so I like where you're going as well, which is like it comes back home, but it also like there's a traveling to the next craft. Gotcha.

It sounds like if you're not open-minded enough to travel, it stops your evolution, right? 100%. It sounds as if, you know, when you're committed to one thing, what the athletes are probably the greatest examples, right? Cause a lot of them have issues with transitioning after leaving the sport. Cause they've known it for their whole lives. And all of the sub capabilities for them to be great translate in what's ever going, whatever they're going to do next. But that translation is really hard because most of them have over-identified with just the one thing.

Wow. Yeah. That's why the 87% are divorced, broke, or both. And it's because they haven't figured out quite who they really are. They're exceptional at what they do, but not maybe who they are. That's mind-blowing. I'm going to pause the conversation here for just a few minutes to talk about our sponsors. Finding Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Solutions.

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So getting enough protein matters. And that can't be understated, not just for strength, but for energy and focus recovery for longevity. And I love that David is making that easier. So if you're trying to hit your daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash finding mastery. And with that, let's jump right back into our conversation. You know, my mom used to call me Jack of all trades, master of none when I would mess up on stuff. And she said it for years and it just, it haunted me because she would, I'd jump to

different things and she'd be like, what are you doing? Focus on one thing, jack of all trades, master of none. And then one day I heard that whole saying that there's a whole, there's a whole other paragraph connected to it. Jack of all trades, master of none, but a master of many is better than a master of one or something like that. And I'm like, and then now I'm starting to see as I've gotten older,

people are like diversifying their portfolio, so to speak. They're, yeah, I own a coffee shop, but I also own a roller skating rink. I got a laundry dryer. And I'm seeing all that as a grown man. And I'm like, but my mom said, focus on one thing. But the one thing might be ideas at scale or the one thing might be inspiring other people um on a shared vision and it doesn't matter if it's a skate rink or it's a whatever like so the the one thing if you boil it down to

the hub if you boil it down to the thing that you're most interested in, you can branch off in many different directions. And then the other part is like passion. And I do think that people get this, we've got the cart before the horse here, that the idea is like, if I can't, if I could just find the thing that I was passionate about, if I could just find that one thing, I'd be okay. And they look to people like you or somebody and they're like, man, he's living his passion. I just wish I could find mine. I think we've got to flip that thing around. It's knowing how to live with passion in everything you do. So think about how dangerous it is if you can only find that buoyancy and that excitement in the one thing or two things that you do, that you need to have that thing to be alive. That's a very dangerous way to go through life.

It's limiting. But what if you could bring passion into every environment that you're in? That is possible. Living with passion is a psychological skill. It's not a dependency. So how does one, I mean, how does one get to that place?

I mean, because I feel as though we've been reared to find that one thing that we're good at. And then when I see you being really good at something, then I look at myself in the mirror and I'm like, I gotta get good at something too. And then I just go for lack of a better word, boss the wall, trying to find that thing and then mastering it, being miserable

in the thing that I've mastered but at least i've mastered something right yeah i mean so i tell you a quick story this was crossing over into your world it was a um this was a fighter who was a championship fight and the belt is being put in the cage belt is being put around his neck his um neck belt is being put in the middle of the cage. Belt is being put around his neck. Belt is being put around his waist. His hand is being raised. And he gives me like a little look. And he comes off and walks down the five steps and he looks at me and he's like, that was cool. He says, you know, but it only lasted a handful of seconds up there. because now I knew that my dad is expecting me to keep going.

I fucking hate this. Like, I'm really good, but I can't stand it. Like, I don't want to do this anymore. So he's got the belt around his waist and he's talking about that moment of relief, that moment of like, it was his first championship. And then by the time he walked out of the cage, down the few steps, he's like, I don't want to keep doing this. So we look at people that are great. Sometimes the torture inside is almost unbearable, you know? So, so that's why I think we got to flip it. It's not the thing that brings passion, but it's, it's you that brings passion into the thing that you do. And that, and that, that thing hopefully is washing dishes and then,

you know, rolling on a jujitsu mat or, um, composing an email or whatever it might be bringing that buoyancy and passion in everything you do. That's an unlock for life. That leads to true happiness, huh? I think it can. Yeah. I had an actor tell me, a famous actor tell me, there's nothing worse than fighting your whole life to get to a position or in a place that you think will bring you the extreme utmost happiness

and then finally arriving there and realizing that it didn't do any of that. And I was young when he told me this and even though I understood the words that were coming out of his mouth, I was thinking what young people think. But you're rich. What are you talking about?

You're on TV. What are you crazy as hell? Give me all that. I'm going to be good. I'll do it differently. I'll sacrifice. I'll do whatever. Yes.

And I think that we feel at times that we're the exception. You're crazy. Give me $20 million. I'm good. I'll handle it. I'll be well-adjusted. I'll be happy. And this person that's actually living it and experiencing it is telling you that, no, I'm here. I'm actually in this position that you want to be in.

It ain't what it's cracked up to be. It's a hard thing to swallow when you don't have what they have, right? To make it really concrete or maybe a path that somebody can step into, there's three ideas that sometimes are blurry and confusing. Let me take a run at clarifying these three. So there's having a vision, and that is using your imagination to imagine a compelling future, to imagine what you or others or a community could become. So doing the internal work to have clarity of vision and to use this powerful mechanism

of your mind and imagination to see the future that you want to work toward, that's a really important piece to it. Okay? So I'm not suggesting that that vision is about having a bigger watch, bigger car, bigger, whatever. I'm talking about like a vision that is so compelling where people are flourishing, where people are better. Okay. So that's, that's one part. Then you can have some goals. So from there, you want to have a bit of a plan and goal that like, there two types of goals. Basically, there's goals that are internal and external focused. And I'm more interested in the goals that are 100 percent under one's control, their internal focus. So I'm in control of being able to reach that goal. So it's not external dependent and it's not external rewarding. Like there's an internal unlock that takes place, but it's fine if you want to have external,

like, you know, like I want to be on this stage or I want to have this many kind of whatever's or, you know, like that's okay to have it. But the more powerful goals are the ones that are 100% of your control. But that's very different than a vision, but they work hand in hand. And then the third is purpose, is to know your purpose. What are you doing here? And I don't mean in the mastery lab. I mean, what are you doing with your life?

I don't, we don't know how long we're going to be here. So getting clarity of your purpose, what are you working so hard for? What's the reason that the vision matters, that the goals are important? So those three are materially important. And I think those three, getting those things lined up is part of the unlock to live with passion in anything and everything that you do. So vision, compelling future, goal, like what are the mechanical steps to get, how do I know I'm on the right track? And then third is like, what are the mechanical steps you know to get how do i know i'm on the right track and then third is like what what's the grand purpose of what you're doing here

yeah i mean the the purpose part of it you know is really interesting because it seems like a no-brainer you know the minute you um become sentient and you understand i've been wanting to say that for so long and you and you understand you're aware and you understand, I've been wanting to say that for so long, and you understand, you're aware and you understand your surroundings, you'd think that's the first question you'd ask. Like, what is my purpose?

Like when, what is my real purpose? Like, let me sit down alone with my thoughts and try to figure out, right. Or see what I'm good at. But somewhere along the line, you kind of get deterred, right? It's funny,

I ask people, I used to ask people this. I used to say, what's your dream? If your fairy godmother flew through your window at nighttime with a wand, which would be scary and creepy, but with a wand, and she said, hey, O'Neal, little O'Neal, with one wave of this wand, I can give you your wildest dream. So think hard and tell me what it is. And the reason why I would ask people that is because I know they would give me the politically correct answer if I didn't. So, you know, I'd be like,

what you wanna do? What you wanna do? I mean, I wanna be a real estate agent. You know what I'm saying? I'm gonna sell houses or whatever, you know? And not the, no knock on real estate agents. I'm just using that as an example. They're wonderful people that get you homes.

But I'd ask that question because I would catch something different from the person. Like, okay, you're a really, I have a friend and he was a ridiculously funny guy. Like, I just feel like his calling in the world was to be a comedian because he was just effortlessly funny, could do impressions. I mean, just touched and gifted, but he worked as a waiter in a restaurant. And I would always say to him, like, what do you wanna do with your life, man?

What do you wanna do? And he'd be like, oh man, you know, I'm just riding my motorcycle and trying to figure it out. And then I would ask him, well, if your fairy godmother flew down and had a wand and said she could give you anything you want, what would it be? And he truly didn't know what it was. And to me, it was mind blowing because I just heard you guys

say like 10% of people know exactly what they want to do, which is interesting to me because I would think that we all intrinsically, right, have that inside of us that we know, but we kind of ignore it because we're afraid the world might shun us if we tell them that we want to, you know, fly to the moon. Yeah. So you're asking, actually that framing of the question is it's, there's a, it's called the miracle question. And so in psychology, the miracle question is basically asking that same question. If a miracle happened tonight and everything that you're hoping for would be different in the morning, like it would happen, it would take place. What is the miracle? And so just getting people to entertain like what the beautiful life would

be tomorrow morning when you woke up, if a miracle happened overnight, is a grounded question in a well researched psychological intervention. So you might not have known that, but it's a brief therapy intervention. And so you were onto something intuitively. When you just said that, I automatically put it on myself and asked myself that question. And even me, who just went through this whole soliloquy saying, if the fairy godmother couldn't, I couldn't tell you. you oh this would be fun maybe what we do is we just like we can do it right now or like ask ask people to do it with us right now and so here's how this

intervention goes is if a miracle happened to your question fairy godmother or just a miracle what would be how would i know it happened That's where I'd like to go. Like when you wake up in the morning, nothing physically has changed, but the miracle that you are hoping for in your life has come true. You're asking me. Yeah. Come on. God. Come on, let's go.

I, it would be. You know what? Hold on. you know what i love that's happening right now what is that i get to watch you like really take the question seriously and and to not say and not to stay on the surface but you're you're taking your time to go one two three four levels deep you're like is that you're calibrating so that the time you're taking to go deep means that like you're willing to go there yeah and so like what is the miracle i hope i'm not being politically correct and i i'm searching for the right answer i want to be content i want to be content i don't want to always chase the next thrill and look and look for the next best thing i want to learn contentment that's what i want did you feel it when you said

it yeah 100 you feel 100 where do you feel it in my stomach yeah yeah because i think that's the root for me at least the the root of a lot of my issues i'm like man i i i feel like i'm less than i gotta get i gotta get here i gotta get her fast if i don't get here fast people are looking at me a certain way i have to fulfill this expectation they have of me and now that i have of myself but then when i think i fulfilled it there's another thing that i need to fulfill and after i fulfill that there's another thing and after that and i'm like well damn how many things i got do i have to fulfill i want to be content I want to I want to I want to I want to be enough yeah yeah did you notice that the feeling that you had as you started to talk about it

got less that you pulled away from the feeling through your talking yeah 100% yeah isn't that interesting like because you're smart and you're more in touch with like your intellectual capabilities and so you felt it it's uncomfortable to feel it's hard to feel that what you just felt if we would have stayed there a little bit longer you're probably probably gone from your stomach to your chest your throat to your jaw behind your eyes and then if you if we really stayed there like you'd let it flow. Well, I mean, just to be clear here, behind my eyes, I'm not crying or nothing like that. I don't cry. You feel me?

Here we go. We're back up on the surface. We're back to the surface. Yes. Okay. So that emotional feeling, so the feeling that you had is really important to honor it. And then the next part, like the question would be, what would be the first thing that you do in the morning? And how would you know that that miracle has taken place?

I really feel like it would be a feeling that just overtakes me because, okay, here it is. I know for a fact it would be a feeling because more often than not, when I wake up in the morning, I feel like I need to chase, I need to jump into the race. So tell me the miracle. The sheets come off, eyes open. The miracle happens. How do we know it took place?

When I put my feet on the ground, I just don't feel like I need to rush into anything. So instead of what you don't feel, what do you feel? I feel slow. I feel poised. I feel within myself. I feel present. Present.

And as you're walking, probably most people, they go to the bathroom first. As you're walking into the bathroom, what's that like? I'm not rushing. So there's a pacing. Definitely. And if there was somebody in the room with you and they were watching you, what would they notice? That's a great question.

I think definitely they'd notice that I'm not waking up with a sense of urgency. And if you were eating breakfast, let's say, in your house, let's say we skip forward a little bit and you're eating breakfast. I don't know if you eat earlier or kind of intermittent fasting later. But if you were eating breakfast in the morning, what would that be like? I wouldn't be talking about, I wouldn't be talking about. No, no. What would it be like? See where you're naturally going? Is it okay? Is it okay that I coach you here? Yeah, please. about. No, no. What would it be like? See where you're naturally going?

Is it okay? Is it okay that I coach you here? Yeah, please. Yeah. Okay, cool. So where you're naturally going is to what it's not. So that's like saying I wouldn't airball. I'd be on, you know, NBA finals and I just wouldn't airball.

Okay, but I'm going strong to the rack. You know, I'm tapping the board. I'm flushing it. You know, I'm, I got this deep, ridiculous focus on the, on the front of the room. You know, I feel like I'm completely fluid. So that's the, the bullseye, if you will, to mix metaphors. And what most of us do, which I'm just seeing you're doing right now is we say, what, what it's not. So when we say what it's not, we become familiar with, with what it's not, but less familiar with what it is, which is a cool framing here. So how are you eating breakfast? Do you know why this feels uncomfortable for me? Probably a lot of reasons. Because I know what you're asking and I don't want to reveal what it is because it makes me feel weaker softer and there's this thing in me that's like don't say i'm looking at the sunrise um because that's not what the alpha does oh god

and i'm not i don't consider myself like an alpha but yeah you're right that's not what the alpha does okay quick pause here to share some of the sponsors of this conversation finding mastery is Yeah, you're right. That's put in your body matters. And that's why I trust Momentus. From the moment I sat down with Jeff Byers, their co-founder and CEO, I could tell this was not your average supplement company. And I was immediately drawn to their mission, helping people achieve performance for life. And to do that, they developed what they call the Momentus standard. Every product is formulated with top experts and every batch is third-party tested NSF certified for sport or informed sport. So, you know exactly what you're getting.

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Or is it the way that I've been operating that is confronting my model? Do you want to hear something interesting about what you just said? The others thing, what others would think. Obviously, when I'm up in the morning, there's no audience there. There's no people that, um, people whose judgment I fear there, but internally there is, there might as well be an invisible audience in my home watching me because I've been reared that way for so long. This is going to sound probably kind of crazy, but I'll catch my, I'll find myself doing things that are organic and natural and that I consider my alpha, inner alpha considered soft.

And as soon as I do that, I'll imagine there's a group of people watching me and I'll revert back to what the alpha should do. As if there was a, literally a group of people watching me like, oh, this is corny. I shouldn't be doing this when there's no one there watching me. And it's a pattern that is really difficult for me to get out of. I think what you just explained in your way is happening for just about everybody. Yeah. I think what you're describing is the greatest constrictor of people's potential is the attending to what they might think and then adjusting according to what they might be thinking. And like they are the they represent the the model that we grew up thinking is the right model. And that was introduced likely by mom and dad or the neighborhood or the region or the heroes that we thought about. Like they installed

that operating system early and then we just, we put it on to them, whatever the colloquial them is. But it's really this pervasive fear of what they might think that keeps us from actually stepping into who we want to be. And the fact that it's that powerful that it can follow you into the confines of your own home when no one is there is mind blowing to me because I've experienced it so many times, but I've never spoke on it or talked about it ever.

I just submitted a manuscript to harvard business review to publish my book that's coming out november 7th the title is the first rule of mastery but the subtitle is stop worrying about what people think of you so i just did a multi-year deep dive into exactly what we're talking about and And so I'm kind of lighting up inside of being honest and going there. And the second is like, you're right on the pulse of what I think that we're so fatigued by that we're ready to let go of this. As a community, I think we have to let go of this. And so one way to do it is like is like okay so you're feeling that like

right like what am i doing yeah so go back to like what's the bullseye how do you want to eat breakfast we're back on we're back on you jesus i thought we got out of there we're going to the next question um i want to, Mike, I want to eat, I want to enjoy my breakfast and not have, I don't want to say I care in the world, but not have the stress of what I'm lacking or how I'm lacking looming over my head like a dark cloud. So that tension got you really good at a lot of things. That tension of what are they going to think and let me adjust. And that hypersensitivity, that high social EQ, that ability to navigate got you really good in a lot of ways in life. And so at some point you'll say, I'm tired of swinging on that vine because there's a new vine that I can see. And when am I going to like recognize that I'm losing momentum on this

vine? It's not, it's not going to get me to the place I want to go, but I'm going to, I'm going to get one little kind of swing because I can still get that vine over there. And that vine is the sense of content and peace. Or maybe there's a couple of vines to get to that content sense of peace. But I think it's right there for you. Yeah. You know, it's funny because as you were saying that, I was thinking, yeah, I want to swing to the other vine. But, you know, our world doesn't afford us the capabilities or doesn't afford us the room to do that.

It should, but the first thing I think is I'm not jumping, I'm not swinging over the other vine because if I do this, you know what I'm saying, there might be major repercussions, especially in this new world that we live in where opinions are there more than they've ever been. We are all public figures. And the currency right now to cancel somebody is an intense currency.

So we're sitting at our desks. We're great at typing. And it's as easy as you can do to cancel somebody. And so that fear of other people's opinions, there's a real thing there because we can be canceled faster than it's ever happened. However, this is the tension. This is the adult thing. Am I going to keep swinging on this vine and play it safe and cool? And I'm okay. You're okay.

You're doing pretty damn good. But you know there's something else that takes risk. And the world is not set up for you to be great. That's your responsibility. The way that you respond to the external conditions, that is your responsibility, responsibility. And so like, that's the adult, that's the adult rite of passage is to know who you want to become and to line your best efforts up day in and day out towards that. And unfortunately, we're not taught the seven, there are no seven steps, but we're not taught those practices early enough in life. And here you, how old are you? I can't remember. Yeah. So we're the same age. Almost. I like to think I was 48 sometimes. I'm 51.

Same generation. Yeah. So like I needed, what we're talking about right now. I was crashing and burning at a young age. I had radical anxiety. I was waking up in the morning. I think I've talked about this with you, but like just brushing my teeth, my hands were shaking because I had so much anxiety. I didn't even know what anxiety was, but I was a fucking disaster. And I expressed it in intolerance, frustration, just the world did not need a 20 year old Mike. The world right now does not need a 20 year old Mike. Like I was not cool, but I was tough

and I was getting after it. Little did anyone know that I was an internal disaster. So I needed to figure out this mechanism as well. And so it's, I don't know why I spent so much time because I was such a mess. Yeah. This is an excellent segue into Anonymous' question. this mechanism as well. And so it's, I don't know why I've spent so much time because that was such a mess. Yeah. This is an excellent segue

into Anonymous' question. Anonymous, let me holler at you for a second. You gotta give us your name because don't be afraid. This is all love here. Right, Dr. Mike?

We're doing it. Yeah, yeah. Look at Dr. Mike's helping me. You know what I'm saying? We're trying to help each other. We want to know who you are. I want to say your name. I won't call you Anonymous.

You know what I'm saying? You're somebody. But for now, I'll call you anonymous. Dr. Mike, how would you describe a psychologically healthy human? Do you have anyone you hold up as a great reference point in your own life or publicly? That's a cool question. The idea of having like a Mount Rushmore of success or health or what I like this idea, like I'm a visual person, so I like this idea. And you know who comes to mind for me is Dr. Woody Hoberg. Woody is an astronaut. And as we're recording right now, he's up in the International Space Station spacewalking

just of, I doning. Just a handful of days ago, he was out of his safe capsule, walking, fixing things out in outer space. So he's extraordinary in what he does. He's obviously one of the best in the world. There's only a select few that get to go to outer space, and he's one of those. But his internal life is honest. There's a purity in the way that he approaches life with a deep curiosity, a humility, an external excellence, a requirement of precision. But he's got this way about himself

that he is fully committed to be a learner. And so when I think of a person, like he comes to mind publicly. And so I want to encourage people to go check him out and to understand, like listen to his interviews. And he's not like the Oprah, he's not an Oprah of the world where it's going to be easy to find,

but he's public enough. And he's one of those folks for me. And what's his name again dr woody hoberg dr woody hoberg okay i'm gonna look up dr woody hoberg myself because i was kind of and maybe this is you know just shot in the dark here but i was kind of hoping you'd say me or something like that feel me but you didn't so who is it for you who Who comes to mind for you? You know, no one, no one. I've looked for that person.

I have. And every time I've thought that I've come close to encountering them, they've, this is going to sound really messed up. They've let me down. Man, I thought you were gonna say me, and now here we are. Oh, man. No, keep going, I'm playing, yeah.

Because I love where you're going. They've let me down, and I don't know if it's that I put too much stock in them, and I put too much reverence in them, and I put them on this pedestal, and I shouldn't have because they're human beings. And I idolized them in some way. I was like, OK, from the outside, you appear to be this way. And then they say or do something and I'm like, Oh, man, you're not that thing.

What I have found is that I'm trying to take pieces of who they are and construct a version of that within myself. It's cool. Like I like this and I like that and I'm going to take this. And you know, so. I'm more, I'm more aligned with that. I just met Woody and I don't think I would have had that answer prior to knowing Woody.

And so I'm more aligned with what you said. And it's not for me, it's, it's a little different. It's not the idolization it's a little different. It's not the idolization of somebody and then the letdown. For me, it's like I see all humans in an equal way. And so I am looking at like characteristics that you have or somebody else has and go, God, that is amazing. And then I do try to metabolize things that inspire me and others.

Like, how could I just be a little more humble? How could I be a more intense? How could I be more playful? And so this year for me was the year of play. And so I've made a commitment. January 1, it's not a resolution, but it's a commitment I make. Like, I want to play more. I want to laugh more. I want to have more buoyancy in my life.

And so because there's people that have basically I've seen that vibrance in them. I'm like, I want to have access to more of that. And so I love where you're going. Like the one is not, it's too big and I don't want to be let down, but I'm taking pieces of folks. But for me, what Woody represents is this balance between external and internal excellence with a humility and a deep commitment to learn. I love that combination. Yeah. So I want more of that myself. Yeah.

Not to mention, he's in space. He's right on the edge. Don't get more badass than that. You're in space. I know. That's impressive. Yeah. Cool, man.

Dr. Mike, there's a question here and it's kind of you know um it's near and dear to me because this is something that pops up in my head all the time i think about it malia malia you and i we're uh we're kindred souls here malia says it seems increasingly difficult to engage in open, curious conversations in our polarized world. How do we bring conversations back to life? How do we let go of a feeling of right or righteousness, right? It seems like there's a tension between pushing forward on an issue we care about and preserving a sense of our self being right. How do we get unstuck?

I mean, I don't know. I really don't know. I think that what Malia is bringing up is really important. It doesn't feel like we're a United States right now. It feels like we're a united states right now it feels like we're a divided state in the um the tactic of judgment and critique is being expressed ad nauseum right now and there's a revelation that's taking place like a revolt where people have been so critical of themselves for so long that now we're taking that vitriol and firing it on other people. And so the ease of judgment and critique is evidence of like that the poison

that people have been living with themselves for a long time, judging and critiquing themselves. And now it's now being expressed like in a public way. So I don't know, I don't have an answer, but I do know that we need, we need the, the strong, cool, and articulate, articulately sensitive. It's funny that I stumble on that word. we we need we need we need this um we need our leaders to show us how to do better and until we get the cool kids to be able to help us create that air cover or to show us that way um we're gonna be stuck here for a while and so i find myself narrating more than I'd like, editing more than I'd like. And there's, I want to be kind and strong. I want to be honest and precise and accurate. And I want to, I don't want other people to feel shitty about

themselves, but I want to call the truth. And like there's phrases that I'm learning every week that I can't say when I'm on a public stage. And I get, I do get it. I understand that there's things that are uncool to say and because it makes people feel a certain way. I was just recently at an event and there's a thing that I do with an audience, which is, you know, ask people to stand up for a certain kind of moment. And they're like, no, no, no, we can't do that because not everyone can stand up. I go, okay, right. Okay. Well, let's get them to like raise their hand. No, no, no, no. Not everyone has hands. And so we can't do that. I was like, Ooh, okay. Well, how can I get some engagement? And they said, well, we're struggling to figure that out too, but we don't have an answer. So there's a weird

phrase that even people that are trying to do their very best are maybe over-engineering inclusion. And so I don't have an answer, but I do know that I'm editing more than I would like. And so now I'm holding back in service of kindness so that I need to learn how to be better, to be able to be more inclusive and supportive and not be callous in the words I'm choosing. For example, when know, when you look up at a deck or when I say a deck, like a PowerPoint or whatever, and you say, okay, the next bullet point, well, because of, you know, violence, like that's not a cool thing to say anymore. Like that's off the list. So, you know, it's the next line item is, is what, so there's a re reframing of my

language to be kind. And that's the person I want to be. So I'm doing my very best, but there's a reframing of my language to be kind. And that's the person I want to be. So I'm doing my very best. But there's an editing that takes place that is tricky. So I don't have an answer. Yeah, it's interesting because while I'm listening to you and I'm thinking about Malia's question, I feel as though we're even editing with the way this is even being responded to. Because I wanted to give an example of what you were talking about but then as i was thinking about giving the example i was like but i can't

give that example because it's kind of like inception a dream within a dream within a dream you know i was like i gotta edit that so but i can't talk about that but this is it's it leaves you stumped it literally leaves you stumped. It literally leaves you stumped. And if I'm stumped, I'm like, well, how can we have discord? How can I know if, because the whole point of conversation is to make discoveries about one another. And then you should afford me the space to say something wrong.

And then when I say it, you say, well, actually, no, this is it. And I'm like, oh, okay, that's how it goes. But why does it go like that and then you should explain it to me and i'm like okay okay but why that and i don't feel that anymore i feel like if i do make that mistake and you correct me i i'm not asking you why or or why is it the way it is because i feel like the more i do that the more i'm going to become polarizing and there's a power it's like your framing is like to explore, to discover, to, you know, have the love affair of getting better, right? Is your framing of it. That's not

everybody's framing. Many people's framing is power and control, which by the way, are the two variables for domestic violence, for abuse. Power and control are very dangerous when they're mixed. And so some people's conversations are about maintaining power and control. And so the language is weaponized and the ability to cancel or to critique is a weapon. It's not for the aim of discovery of growth. It is for power and control. So there's a framing issue that's taking place right now. And the bigger government is the less freedom that people potentially can have. And I feel like there's a fight between individualism, the collective ecosystem of being a social human and the forces of government. And like those three forces are at play all the time.

And I don't know. I think that like we're, I don't think the United States of America is healthy by any means. And this is one of the manifestations of that disease. And now one final word from our sponsors. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day.

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Where would it be? And what would you ask them? Fergie, Fergie, Fergie like took this question from me. This is a question I ask in every, almost every podcast. So good job, Fergie. All right. Let's both play along in this. So my answer keeps coming back to people, a person, I'm going to frame it right now,

that fundamentally changed the world. So there's a handful of those people that fundamentally altered the world. And those are the ones I want to sit with. And the one that I'll share right now is Jesus. So can you imagine sitting with somebody that powerful? And for me, I want to feel. I want to feel him more than even ask him a question. And I don't mean physically. But maybe there's something happening. As they say in the hip hop community, pause. Pause. So, but I want to just experience that essence of a person who fundamentally inspired and changed the world.

And the question that I think about a lot for Jesus is, is the way that you lived possible for the rest of us? The answer that I think through is the intersection between the Holy Spirit, the eternal goodness that God represents, and the temptations and the frailty of the human experience. Like that Trinity, if you will, is awesome. And so is it possible? Because we've been sold that it is. And that is what maybe Buddhism and other game-changing humans, Buddha I'm thinking about, have also sold that enlightenment is possible. So actually, as I'm framing it, I just realized I walked into a yes, no question. Is it possible? And he looks at me like, yeah,

which would be a bummer of a conversation. So I don't know, maybe I'd need to rethink my question right now. But I've been thinking about that idea a lot. Like, is it possible? And I'm assuming that he's going to talk through like how, in a little bit more pedestrian way than the power and control of the religion of Christianity has tried to organize. So that would be my one. How about you? Okay. So this is going to sound like I'm just piggybacking off you.

I'm biting your style, but I'm not biting your style, Dr. Mike. I feel the same way too. It would be God. And I actually. So not Jesus. You're going a different direction. I'm not biting your style, but I'm not biting your style, Dr. Mike. I feel the same way too. It would be God. And I actually. So not Jesus. You're going a different direction. I'm going straight to God. So, and this is a question that I always ask, right?

Myself. I want to know, I want to know why you let bad things happen to good people. How about it? i want to know that free will yeah is this a conversation of free will uh no because i i know that the free will thing is is coming to play on a few occasions but no i just want to know why and if i'm being specific right i can give you a lot of examples i want to know why babies die on planes i want to know why kids get kidnapped and and and bad things happen to them, the multitude of bad things.

I want to know why nations get ransacked and terrorized by their leaders. I want to know why people kill people. I want to know why a really, really good person dies in a horrible way, right? I've gone down layers and layers of these things, right? I've peeled back layers of these things. And, you know, I want to know.

I want to know. Because right now, like you said before, that this is a cold, dangerous world, right? And it seems as though evil is winning over good. Right. So it all has to make some sort of sense. Right. There has to be some end game and something at the very end that makes us all say, oh, OK. OK. Because I was worried for a minute there because a plane just crashed with a whole bunch of babies on it. And there's some people lost in a submarine

and a tidal wave just wiped out a whole village. But this justifies all of that. This makes it make sense. Thank you, because I was worried for a second. That's cool. So that's a cool framing. Yeah. Harold Kushner, or Harold Kushner,

rabbi, super articulate, wrote a book called Why Bad Things Happen to Good People. And so a small, easy pedestrian read rabbi super articulate wrote a book called why bad things happen to good people and so a small easy pedestrian read well articulated and um basically he kind of reduces it down do you want me to give you the punchline do you please so this is not sitting with god this is sitting with harold so just be clear yeah um he says yeah uh it's kind of like a bumper sticker shit happens yeah and so there's a randomness to the world and um that's kind of not that's that his answer is like it's how you respond to it do you agree that there's a randomness to the world i mean i'm not saying

there isn't but i can be honest with you and tell you that i i sure don't want it to be honest with you and tell you that I sure don't want it to be. Yeah. So the framing here for me is that if you believe in God, proposition number one, is your God passive or active? And so an active God is like, oh, you know what? Yeah. O'Neill and Mike need to meet. Okay. So I'm going to coordinate a couple rhythms and we're going to go through James Bond and our mutual friend to kind of make that happen, you know? And so that's an active God as a small example. And passive is like, listen, I'm going to kick this thing off and I'm rooting for you. Right. And there's two forces that we're going to have to navigate. And I'm going to show you one way and you know, there's another way too. Yeah. And so, um, I'm more, I'm so to answer your question, what, hold on, reframe the, or restate the question one more time.

I was saying that, um, do you believe that there's a randomness to the world? And I'm not saying that there is, but I don't want there to be. Yeah. So, um, so I'm more aligned with the, um, passive approach, not the active. And there's plenty of people that are going to kind of throw some books at me right now, but I'm more interested in that framing. And there is a, the world, there's two framing, chaotic or non-chaotic, right? Or harmonious. I don't understand it. And I don't think the brightest minds do. And the reading I've, I've read on it, I can, I can find myself agreeing to both philosophies, that there's a beautiful order and there's chaos. And so the answer is, I don't know. I'm, I'm not

a student enough about that, but I tend to fall on the side of chaos. However, there's a deep philosophical scientific investigation on both of these and maybe maybe what we do is we bring somebody on on the pod and have this conversation like you're stimulating something um that i don't i don't have any clarity about so but if you're just kind of toss it up i'd say chaotic yeah which way do you go i mean i like i said i think i I want to believe that there's an order of design that's just so grand and so beyond my level of comprehension that eventually when the time comes, I pass on and whatnot, that it all makes sense. Because as it stands now, through my eyes, I can only speak through my experiences, it just seems like most things are bad and just a few things are good and ever since you know i've been young i've heard that whole thing about oh you know you suffer you suffer you suffer you suffer to get this little bit of goodness and it just who i just want who made that up because it was just passed it was

just passed down to a whole bunch of people and then they're like hey come here o'neill take this you see you suffer and then you get a little bit of good. Pass it on when you get older, too. Don't ask me why. I don't know. Somebody gave it to me. And I'm just questioning that. Like, man, are you really supposed to suffer?

Are we supposed to suffer? Because I want to feel good most of the time. And then everybody around me is like, no, man, we got to suffer. And I'm like, who said that? I don't know. I just grew up hearing it. So I don't want to accept it at face value. I think that this is where I'm attracted to the Buddhist philosophies is that all of us

are suffering and the way through it is to be connected and to be honest with your own suffering and then in return to have some loving kindness towards oneself so that you can treat others with loving kindness as well. And I'm oversimplifying one of the first tenets of Buddhism. But that idea that we're all suffering, there's a way through, and that approach is love and kindness. But you can't really do that unless you recognize what suffering feels like for yourself. So the last note here is that our internal ecosystem is magnificent, and there is some order in that.

The external ecosystem has some ordering to it as well. And we're out of balance. It's maybe, maybe we're so out of balance now that we're, we're going to lose the game from another mother nature's ability to sustain our abuse of it. And so from that perspective, I see like that ecosystem feels pretty dialed in.

And so that leads me to the lean, I lean towards the order bit, but the chaotic nature of human action, I align on the other side. Anyways, listen, we've traveled a lot today. We talked about like philosophical deep questions. We got right into you and your bed. We did that for a little bit. We left my phone alone. We left your phone alone. Yeah. We walked to your bathroom. We ate in your living room or your kitchen, I should say. And we also answered some really fun questions from our community. So it was amazing. Again, thank you for hosting today. Thank you for having me. It's always a pleasure.

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