Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - How To Unlock the Potential of Our Kids | Dr. Sheila Ohlsson Walker

Episode Date: December 14, 2022

This week’s conversation is with Dr. Sheila Ohlsson Walker, a Senior Scientist at the Institute for Applied Research in Youth Development at Tufts University and a Visiting Assistant Professor at the Johns Hopkins University School of Education.Sheila’s work and research interests lie at the intersection of neuroscience, genetics, psychology and social science, with a focus on how we can create contexts in sport, school and nature settings that unlock the potential of our youth.A former professional tennis player, Sheila knows first-hand the power sport has to build life skills that transfer into careers, and embed wellness habits that foster health and holistic well-being. She knows that adults, through the relationships they form, can activate passion, possibility and a sense of purpose in young people.Accordingly, in this conversation we discuss the science of child development, and how to equip coaches, teachers and parents with the knowledge, skills and mindsets that promote flourishing in young people across life._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Finding Mastery is brought to you by Remarkable. In a world that's full of distractions, focused thinking is becoming a rare skill and a massive competitive advantage. That's why I've been using the Remarkable Paper Pro, a digital notebook designed to help you think clearly and work deliberately. It's not another device filled with notifications or apps.

It's intentionally built for deep work. So there's no social media, no email, no noise. The writing experience, it feels just like pen on paper. I love it. And it has the intelligence of digital tools like converting your handwriting to text, organizing your notes, tagging files, and using productivity templates

to help you be more effective. It is sleek, minimal. It's incredibly lightweight. It feels really good. I take it with me anywhere from meetings to travel without missing a beat. What I love most is that it doesn't try to do everything. It just helps me do one very important thing really well,

stay present and engaged with my thinking and writing. If you wanna slow down, if you wanna work smarter, I highly encourage you to check them out. Visit remarkable.com to learn more and grab your paper pro today. I would say mastery is intrinsically motivated brilliance and something that is channeled through us that comes or arises from the deepest part of ourselves, but it is channeled through us that helps us be spectacular in the manner that is aligned with our purpose. Okay, welcome back or welcome to the Finding Mastery podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Michael Gervais. I trade in training a high-performance psychologist. And today I am really excited to

sit down with Dr. Sheila Olson Walker. Sheila is a senior scientist at the Institute for Applied Research in Youth Development at Tufts University and a visiting assistant professor at the Johns Hopkins University School of Education. Her work and research interests lie at the unique intersection of neuroscience, genetics, psychology, and social science, with a focus on how we can create context in sports, school, and nature settings that unlock the potential of our youth. A former professional tennis player, Sheila translates cutting-edge science to equip coaches,

teachers, and parents with knowledge, skills, and mindsets that promote flourishing in young people across life. Sheila, I'm really excited to sit down with you today. First and foremost, how are you? Thank you. So it's such an honor to be here. I listened to your podcast and I have for years. I'm just deeply honored to be here speaking with you today and very excited for our conversation. I am good. I'm a combination of excited and nervous. I think Fritz Perl said, fear is excitement without the breath. So I'm trying to breathe. But I'm thrilled to be here

today to talk about the things that we both care about related to youth sports and human development. That matters. That means a lot. And the reason that means so much is one, I really appreciate the honesty in that, that you're feeling nervous and excitement. And, you know, like it's, it's fun to hear that because I know your work and it's like, there's a very tall tent pole that you work through. Like you've done some significant work here. And so to hear that you're nervous makes me go, Oh, okay, good. It's okay for me to be nervous too. So I appreciate that. So how about this? So right off the bat, I have a deep appreciation for the clarity of the mission and your purpose in your work. And that does not come easily. So, you know, just to be uber clear,

to educate adults on how to create environments that can unlock the potential of our children, that is so clear and it is a mission that matters to you. And you have this unique ability of being able to go really deep and at the same time, horizontally broad with your experiences and your science. So what I wanted to do is maybe before we drill down into the weeds, I want to zoom out, way out. And if we could just think about a few of the big rocks or the key takeaways that you hope parents or teachers or coaches will leave this conversation with? What are those? The key, this is such a wonderful question. The key issues, the key things that I want parents, all adults who touch the lives of children to take away is what an incredibly important time childhood and adolescence is. In neuroscience, it's called a sensitive period in brain development.

It is the most malleable time that we go through throughout the course of human development, where new behaviors and mindsets and habits are much more deeply and kind of sturdily laid down that last for life. So it's this really rich, fertile time for development, laying down the behaviors and mindsets we know are going to serve our young people over time. This includes sports and health and self-care and wellness, which we'll talk about. But I think the other really important piece is that we have the ability to live our way into the human brain is, and the mind-body system is malleable across life,

but particularly in these early years. And in terms of meaning-making in the stories we tell ourselves about what's possible, this is an iterative process. And so as adults in the lives of young people are talking with them and communicating on a daily basis, it's important to know that these belief systems that we're laying down, our outer voice as adults becomes the inner voice of children as they grow older. We write about this in our book, Wise Decisions.

So how we frame things up, how we help young people make meaning and how we help them tell stories about themselves, about things they may have never thought possible were it not for us. It's just vital to know how much influence we have. And sometimes it's hard to tell. We have three teenage boys, 16, 17 and 19. It's hard to tell when we're having influence sometimes because it takes a little blocking and tackling at times. But what we know from the science is that over time, these are rich developmental years. And so leveraging them in all contexts is vital. And that's why I care so much because these are majorly important years. So you introduced the word about the sensitive period as opposed to a critical period. Can you just illuminate the difference between those two? Like when something doesn't happen, critical meaning when something doesn't happen by a certain milestone, you've missed the window.

Sensitive meaning that it's really important to get it right, but it's not essential or critical that you get it right. Can you just take that a little further? Sure. A critical period in development, as you said, is when something does or doesn't happen. For example, vision. And if a child doesn't have the ability to build out those neural pathways early on in life during this critical period in development. Vision will be impaired or not present. There are some terrible psychological stories, studies on just this case. Sensitive period in development is just this rich developmental time where it's more

likely to form habits and behaviors and memories that last across time. This is partly because of the emotional wiring. You know, kids, young people are developing their sensory systems at a much more rapid rate than their prefrontal cortices. The executive function is much later to come online. So the sensory element of development for young people and, and the fact that they're, they're laying new pathways and it's not, there's no tabula rasa. We were born the minute, the minute we start developing, we're developing neural pathways, but we are establishing at the more we repeat a certain behavior or mindset or pattern of thought, the more it becomes embedded as an automatic habit. And this is earlier on in

life, because we don't have all of these years behind us, we're just developing these, these pathways. And the more we repeat these pathways, the more they tend to be sticky for us behaviorally across time so that we don't even know that we're, we're doing them, which is the, you know, the real premise around the sports work and making sports fun for young people, because there's so, so, so much richness in those experiences. Okay. So then we're talking about the sensitive period. This is why your work matters because you want to capture, you understand the value of the sensitive phase from brain development and psychology. And you're saying, look, things are just, it's just green shoots everywhere. And if we can get to those green shoots early and we get the right nutrients and the right

hydration on these green shoots, then, you know, maybe we've got a chance at creating something that, you know, grows beautifully. And are you more interested in the psychological or the cognitive or the epigenetic influence? And I, I, I bet I know your answer, which is all three, but I, I, you tell me like, where are you more interested when it comes to the, at least those three variables? I, I would say, uh, your, your hypothesis is right. It's all three. It's like nature and nurture. We can't, we can't pull them apart.

They all interact with one another in a dynamic and iterative way across life. Okay. So, all right. Are you more interested in, of those three, are you more interested in psychology or are you more interested in neurobiology? And I know I'm trying to be a reductionist because I do want to understand from one scientist to another, one applied scientist to another, is like, where do you tend to lean as a default in your thinking? I love to know the neurobiology, the work of Mary Helen Imordino-Yang, my dear friend at USC who you've interviewed here, Antonio Damasio. I love neurobiology. I'm a science nerd, you know, through and through.

But the psychology piece, I feel like holds the story piece. And so that's the part that I, I think I take the neurobiology as a platform and apply it to really illuminate the psychology piece because that's, that's the more accessible piece. Finding Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Solutions. In any high-performing environment that I've been part of, from elite teams to executive boardrooms, one thing holds true. Meaningful relationships are at the center of sustained success. And building those relationships, it takes more than effort. It takes a real caring about your people. It takes the right tools,

the right information at the right time. And that's where LinkedIn Sales Navigator can come in. It's a tool designed specifically for thoughtful sales professionals, helping you find the right people that are ready to engage, track key account changes, and connect with key decision makers more effectively. It surfaces real-time signals, like when someone changes jobs or when an account becomes high priority, so that you can reach out at exactly the right moment with context and thoroughness that builds trust. It also helps tap into your own network more strategically, showing you who you already know that can help you open doors or make a warm introduction. In other words, it's not about more outreach. It's about smarter, more human outreach.

And that's something here at Finding Mastery that our team lives and breathes by. If you're ready to start building stronger relationships that actually convert, try LinkedIn Sales Navigator for free for 60 days at linkedin.com slash deal. That's linkedin.com slash deal for two full months for free. Terms and conditions apply. Finding Mastery is brought to you by David Protein. I'm pretty intentional about what I eat and the majority of my nutrition comes from whole foods and when I'm traveling or in between meals on a demanding day certainly I need something quick that will support the way that I feel and think and perform and that's why I've been leaning on David protein bars and so has the team here at Finding Mastery in fact our GM Stuart he loves

them so much I just want to kind of quickly put them on the spot. Stuart, I know you're listening. I think you might be the reason that we're running out of these bars so quickly. They're incredible, Mike. I love them. One a day. One a day. What do you mean one a day?

There's way more than that happening here. Don't tell. Okay. All right, look, they're incredibly simple. They're effective. 28 grams of protein, just 150 calories, and zero grams of sugar. It's rare to find something that fits so conveniently into a performance-based lifestyle and actually tastes good.

Dr. Peter Attia, someone who's been on the show, it's a great episode, by the way, is also their chief science officer. So I know they've done their due diligence in that category. My favorite flavor right now is the chocolate chip cookie dough. And a few of our teammates here at Finding Mastery have been loving the fudge brownie and peanut butter. I know, Stuart, you're still listening here. So getting enough protein matters. And that can't be understated, not just for strength, but for energy and focus, recovery for longevity. And I love that David is making that easier.

So if you're trying to hit your daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N dot com slash finding mastery. Okay, so we're talking about mindsets, we're talking about meaning making, and we're talking about basically mapping that on or capturing this sensitive period of psychological development, emotional development, as well as neurocognitive development. And so where do you want to start?

I mean, I'm thinking for me as a parent, and sometimes I wonder, like, you know how sometimes if you just go too far and too deep into something, it's hard to come back up and get the forest from the trees. And sometimes I feel like I'm so down in the trees with stuff that, you know, when I, when I come up and want to share best practices or align best practices between my wife's understanding and my understanding about how to help something grow, someone grow is that I'm like, is that, is that really right? Because there's this theory and there's this approach and that approach and this could work and that could work. And so I'm saying that because I'm defaulting to where would you want to start the conversation with somebody who is a caring parent that is

doing a lot in their life? I'm not talking about me. I'm talking about our audience. And they just want to be as best a human as they possibly can to this young spirit that's trying to figure out their way. Where do you help people start? Well, I think that's the practical questions are the best questions. And that's why I do what I do, why you do what you do. I would go to my kind of the headline from my PhD in behavioral genetics. I worked on the twins early development study in London, following 15,000 twin pairs, looking at nature, nurture and education. And but if you look at all of the, all of the behavioral genetic studies, and all the bio social studies, nature operates via nurture.

So I think that's a really important starting point. There's no nature versus nurture debate, nature versus nurture debate. And the story of epigenetics and behavioral epigenetics in particular, Jeffrey Bland talked about this a couple of weeks ago on your podcast. He was amazing. But we are a work in process throughout life. So this optimistic story that science tells us about what's possible for transformation and change is amazing and palpable. So that's point number one. Point number two is we've got to take each child as a unique individual child. Behavioral genetics is the study of individual differences.

And we're all wired up differently. Even identical twins are never 100% similar. They never correlated 100%. We wire up differently based on our experiences. And so the interplay between our environments and who we are and our kind of biological selves and, and our, the environment and how we perceive the environment, because what's real in the mind is real in the body at a molecular level is, is vital to know. And so really approaching each

child as a unique human being, seeing what lights them up, you know, use all of the cues available to you to see what brings them joy, to help them, you know, to help nurture their nature in a way that is aligned with the things that are intrinsically motivating for them. And it gets down to really, every human being, every child has unique, extraordinary gifts. And as a parent of three boys, I really try to look at them as, you know, they have a lot of similarities, but they're very different in their own ways and try to approach them and meet them where they are in a connective space where I can help them understand for themselves what's possible for them in the areas that they care about. How do you do that? How do you sit?

Like, it's this is all through conversation and it's probably through questions and it's probably through nonverbal affirmations, you know, like, but more concretely, how would you guide somebody to be better at it? And that's the, that's the concrete question. But the easy question is like, can you tell me a story that illuminates how you bring out what's possible in your, one of your sons or all three of them? So I'll tell you a story first. I am working on, I love sports. I'm a tennis player. I'm an athlete. I learned all the skills that helped me get ahead in life on the tennis court as an athlete.

And I know that sports, there's a deep research on sports and transferable skills in life. So our, all three sons of our sons are athletes, but during the football season, our youngest son, Wyatt, who's 16 years old, has been working his tail off to kind of catch up with his older brother, Charlie, in a way, but he had to, Charlie got injured and Wyatt had to take over running back and he he just he worked extraordinarily hard and really pushed him to his very edge and he was exhausted and trying to keep up with his schoolwork um and what I really tried to do as we were having conversations about school and football. And I've always for them, you know, as a, as a mom who thinks about grades as a kind of a distal marker of a person's capacity and, and test scores and so forth, really talk to him about football as, and the things he's learning

in football kind of break down the things that he, the, the teamwork, the leadership, the discipline, coming back from injury, you know, friendships with his teammates, how he relates to his coaches, respect, work ethic, relating these things to life and just introducing terms like, you know, these are the things that are going to get you ahead in life as well. You get to work hard at your school, but these things that you're doing on the football field are actually skills

that map directly onto what matters in life in a, in a, in an employment setting, your career setting, setting goals and aspiring to things that seem out of reach and planting seeds in his mind about what he's capable of so that he can see it. He has a broader spectrum of possibility, sort of enhancing his possibility set by using language with him that broadens out concepts that seem like they might be tighter and more narrow. Okay. So that's your, that is your process is that you're using his life experiences. So you're having a conversation and you're, first of all, you're trying to get more out of him than how was your day? Fine. Good. You know, the one sentence.

So you're using some questions to get in there, open-ended, maybe designed in your mind for where you're trying to take them, which is the transferability from whatever they're experiencing in sport or school or social into a broader next context. And so is that, is that one of the ways that you're enhancing nurture? That's one of the ways that I'm enhancing nurture, um, helping them see things that they wouldn't connect that they wouldn't normally connect. Okay. So if like your son were to say, if you got him talking about like practice that day, or you got him talking about school, like a test that he took or whatever. And he's, he says, you know, it was pretty good. I got a, I got a B and, um, I thought I was going to get an A, but you

know, it was just a little bit harder than I thought. It was like, there was different questions that I didn't quite study. Right. And, um, I'm a little bummed, but you know, it's just a little bit harder than I thought. It was like, there was different questions that I didn't quite study. Right. And I'm a little bummed, but you know, it's, it's not that big a deal, mom. It's not that big a deal. How would you address something like that? I would, I would address that by saying it's important to go back and understand where I would say a, a B is if you gave it your very best and you prepared for it, a B is great. I was a B student. Uh, so that's no problem. It's about the effort that goes into it. And when I think the appropriate amount of effort goes into it, uh, and there is a desire to continue to learn, to go back and look at what, you know, what we missed, even if it's a subject

we don't care as much about, I think it's important to go back and learn from every experience of, you know, whatever level of underperformance, failure, whatever you want to call it, fail forward, learn a thing or two from it. And it's always a good experience also to go in and talk to a teacher afterwards, because it develops a different kind of relationship. And it's, it's all about these relationships. And that's another thing that applies to any setting, you know, when something is, is less than is suboptimal for any reason, addressing it, figuring out where the, you know, where the pain points are, where the, where the learning potential is and going in and,

and shining some light on it to see how we can do better next time in some way. Okay. All right. Very cool. And then I want to, I want to pull on two threads here before you, and I hope I didn't interrupt you too much from the next point you're going to make, but there's two things that are jumping out. One is effort and personal best or what's possible, not personal best, what's possible. So the effort thing is, I think it's easy to see a high effort and, but it does take lots of frames of reference to know the difference between movement and, uh, aligned purposeful effort. And I think most people don't know what the upper limits of effort feel like.

So I'm saying something inflammatory there because 99.9% of the population go, you didn't know me. That's not for me. That's for somebody else. Because most people think they're working at their highest level. But when you've been in those environments where like the uncommon intensity that is displayed on a regular basis by the half percenter that is fundamentally different, they were born genetically with some incredible gifts. They found an environment that challenged those gifts, supported and challenged them. And then they also had the ability to keep learning, to keep pushing towards their, their edges. Like that it's not complicated. Like that, that trifecta is rare and, and those

folks make everyone around them better. And so my point is a 14 year old or 16 year old is like, yeah, I'm working hard. How do you, how do you help them understand the upper limits? Like what do you use from a questioning or frames of reference to help them understand that there is more actually for them to go? That's a great question. And that's, that's, I think it's a very, it's a difficult thing to articulate because there's so much of a felt sense in that as, you know, as, and for me as a mother of athletic boys, sports is a great way to help them understand what that is. It gives them a felt sense. They know, you know, Wyatt knows when he's pushing it on the basketball court or on the football field. Charlie knows when he's pushing it on the basketball court or on the football field. Charlie knows when he's pushing it in the gym. They don't, they know it more through sports

than through school. And, you know, our boys are, they're perfectly fine students. They're not, you know, they're not, they don't come home and read through a nonfiction book at night. They want to go work out and play and stay active. That upper limit for them happens in sports. And so drawing that parallel between what sports is to real life, because there's such synergy between the things we learn, that felt sense of passion, that felt sense of, I know I've got another molecule of energy in me to go after it. And so later in life, as they find their passion, this is my hypothesis anyway, we'll see how it all plays out. But

I believe that when they find the things that they care about. They all, they're boys who are in their hearts. They love people. They love, they're just really thoughtful, caring boys. And I don't know what they will do in terms of their careers, but I believe that they're going to engage that same kind of energy in the things that really light their fire when they find their purpose and how they want to apply that more broadly in the real world. The thing that I'm wanting to better unlock is, let me make it really concrete. I've seen film of me, I'm trying to get a feedback loop out of you in some respects. So I've seen film of me where I think I'm low in an athletic stance while I'm doing it. And then the film's like, oh yeah, I've got another two inches

that I should be a little bit more dynamic in how I'm moving. Same is true for my son or other athletes is that there's feedback loops to say, no, you remember how we're training in like, let's call it in the gym or weight training. And you're staying low in that squat and I'm giving you feedback and you know what it feels like, that's supposed to transfer onto game day or into practice. And then when they watch film of game day in practice, they're actually, like I said, just a couple inches higher,

which makes them a little less dynamic. Okay, all right. So film is a great feedback loop because it's honest. How do you help create a feedback loop for them to unlock what high effort and strain is? Or are you just hands off? You're saying that's the coach's job. That's not, I'm not getting anywhere near that because one last thing to give you something to work with here is that I'll ask my son things like, how was your effort today? Because, you know, for me, effort matters a lot. And I say, how was your effort today? Because for me, effort matters a

lot. And I say, how was your effort today? He's like, it's good, dad. And then I said, did you know that I watched at the end, the sprints at the end? And he goes, no. I go, okay, let me ask you one more time. And I'm laughing and he's starting to grin. How was effort? He goes, I thought it was good, but did you see something else? I go, son, yes. You know, like I know what high effort looks like for you. And I don't think I saw it unless there's something going on, meaning like you got an injury or you're sick or something like that. And he goes, yeah, yeah. Okay. Thanks dad. You know? And he's like, yeah, thank you for reminding me. You know, and it's a, it's an endearing conversation. There's no bite in our relationship like that. So that's what I'm trying to unlock is this high effort thing before we go to potential. participating on a team, it doesn't, it doesn't help anybody grow. And research shows it's not

that, you know, much in demand by, by, by athletes either. That's Amanda V6 work. I think that there's a fine line knowing what's happening in my boys' lives. And when they need a nudge, giving them a nudge, but also understanding that I might not be the person to give them the nudge for a particular thing, because it really does take a village. And children listen to different people in a different way at different times in development. And this is why all of these, they're called developmental relationships, are important. And when our kids have a special connection with a teacher or a coach, sometimes it's easier and more kind of more easily received, more seamlessly received by someone else., I'm a big fan of sitting down and talking with them about what's going on, but I'm also conscious that my most important job is to love them and be a safe place for them to come rest and, and someone who will, who will, who will be here for them. And that doesn't mean

I don't push them and I don't tell them that I've, that they need to step it up. But I also am conscious that that relationship is, that's the most important thing to me. And it's the most important thing to them. And I trust that they're going to get to where they're going to go over time. But I can course correct myself. I can bring in a coach or a teacher to help course correct or a grandparent or another friend and sometimes peers, because peers are incredibly important to young people as they're, I mean, they become more important in some ways during the school years. And so I think taking a broader approach and not that I haven't tried the approach of I want to I want to be the one who helps kind of steer solo steer the ship in the right direction. It's a lot of effort and it's not very effective. And so I think having a feeling the pressure is not entirely on me and bringing in other people who care about them and who could speak to them and give the

same message in a different way is a highly effective way to do things. It takes a village. And I think knowing that we have a village and knowing who those people are that our children relate to and respect and love and have fun with and trust is vital because they can really be major allies for us. We don't have to lift the whole thing on our own. That's like, it's refreshing to hear. It's like, yeah, I agree. And then it feels like this wash, you know, like a wash over me, like, yeah, that's refreshing

to remember that. And then you had mentioned a handful of times about support and challenge. And so we think that it's in that order, support, then challenge. And if you were to think about how your kids, let's say they're your age at some point, and they're reflecting back on their relationship with their, with their mom, would you want to over, would you want them to over-rotate on like, you know what? Mom just flat out supported me. Or would you want them to over-rotate on like, you know what? Mom just flat out supported me. Or would you want them to over-rotate towards, you know what? Mom really challenged me. No question. Kindness is the medicine of life. I think love is everything. And if that's their

big takeaway from me, just unconditional love and support, I'll take that 365 days a year. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentous. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday, what you put in your body matters. And that's why I trust Momentus. From the moment I sat down with Jeff Byers, their co-founder and CEO, I could tell this was not your average supplement company. And I was immediately drawn to their mission, helping people achieve performance for life. And to do that, they developed what they call the Momentus standard. Every product is formulated with top experts, and every batch is third-party tested.

NSF certified for sport or informed sport, so you know exactly what you're getting. Personally, I'm anchored by what they call the Momentus 3, protein, creatine, and omega-3. And together, these foundational nutrients support muscle recovery, brain function, and long-term energy. They're part of my daily routine. And if you're ready to fuel your brain and body with the best, Momentous has a great new offer just for our community right here. Use the code FINDINGMASTERY for 35% off your first subscription order at livemomentous.com. Again, that's L-I-V-E momentous, M-O-M-E-N-T-O-U-S, livemomentous.com, and use the code FindingMastery for 35% off your first subscription order. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Felix Gray. I spend a lot of time thinking about

how we can create the conditions for high performance. How do we protect our ability to focus, to recover, to be present? And one of the biggest challenges we face today is our sheer amount of screen time. It messes with our sleep, our clarity, even our mood. And that's why I've been using Felix Grey glasses. What I appreciate most about Felix Grey is that they're just not another wellness product. They're rooted in real science, developed alongside leading researchers and ophthalmologists. They've demonstrated these types of glasses boost melatonin, help you fall asleep faster, and hit deeper stages of rest. When I'm on the road and bouncing around between time zones, slipping on my Felix Grays in the evening, it's a simple way to cue my body just to wind down. And when I'm locked into deep

work, they also help me stay focused for longer without digital fatigue creeping in. Plus, they look great. Clean, clear, no funky color distortion. Just good design, great science. And if you're ready to feel the difference for yourself, Felix Gray is offering all Finding Mastery listeners 20% off. Just head to FelixGray.com and use the code FindingMastery20 at checkout. Again, that's Felix Gray. You spell it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com and use the code FindingMastery20 at FelixGray.com for 20% off. You've got this really, I think, insightful quote, which is, achieving far- far reaching dreams requires passion, effort, dedication, a steadfast belief in what's possible and an alignment of energy and time with our values and goals. All right. Love it. I would love to share with you my approach. So it's not like I'm pulling lint out of your pocket and then we can go, you know, have a conversation about it. But how do you help people believe what's possible in their life?

Well, I think it's by helping them see things that it's hard to, to, to see, uh, having confidence instilling, it's almost instilling energy into another person from what I see and believe is possible. I have a lot of positive, I can just see, I can just see their talent. I can see that they, they have so much capacity, just helping them, helping them understand that the things they want to do are all possible. If they just believe in themselves, I am a a big because this is how it's worked for me the universe opens up when we have our hearts and minds um invested in an idea of what we like to do and we have the right you know kind of doing the right thing in the right way for the right reasons. I don't know how it happens. But what I do know is that if we if we sit back and let life come to us, it doesn't happen. So I try to help

others believe in stories about what's possible by just kind of nurturing, giving some forward momentum, sometimes making introductions, sometimes sending articles. But it is, I feel like the biggest part of it is my energy and helping them see and believe that I see them. I see them. I see their talent. I see what they have to offer. And I'm here to just help lift them up. you sharing with them based on what you saw and witnessed it pushing the actual material thing that you saw and witnessed being pushed through your filter and your reference points to come out back to them with a new way of what's possible next. Like it feels like you're pushing it through a model optimism slash reference points back to them, from the small pond to the bigger pool to from the bigger pool to, you know, the ocean or whatever, like you're constantly kind of, so you do need to have reference points. And I do, I think that reference points are incredibly important.

You also need some honesty and insight. And you lost me when you said, you said, like, when you align that you're the universe opens up. As a scientist, I go, okay, where are you coming from? You know, and it doesn't mean that my understanding of that has to be in alignment with yours. But what does that mean to you? For me, that just means that synchronicity happens. And I don't know how to totally explain it somewhere in the field of quantum physics. It's in the energy spaces. And I think that these are some of the most interesting questions there are. I, I believe when we align our purpose with our passion and we try to find ways

to get to where we want to go to do the things that we are called to do um we eventually find someone who will listen and um so it is it's hard to explain but i will say this is what i've experienced i would never have thought i'd wind up as a scientist i mean honestly my father was a biochemistry professor at University of Colorado. So I had some science genes in me. But it was really because of my own experiences over time and gravitating towards science that I wound up kind of falling into the field of science after a first career in finance. But it's based on this basic desire to support young people, to support young people in being the best versions of themselves that they can be. And I do believe that things are possible when we believe they're possible and find

people around us who help us live our way into these stories of human potential. I'm nodding my head to all of it. And you just invited an idea. I'd love to just share it with you is that based on what you're just sharing, it was a new idea for me, which is maybe it's not so much about a belief in what's possible, which I know is your language, but it's a knowing that I matter. And if I know that I matter to people that are supposed to have my back and they're supposed to be caring for me and they've dedicated their life to helping me be better. And I don't have to do any special tricks, but they keep seeing this amazingness about me.

And they keep thinking about my future too. And then I don't know if it's the actual mechanics of the filter I was talking about, or if it's the fundamental, that deep-needed, rooted biological need to be connected. We are social beings, not individuals running around trying to be social. We're social beings actually becoming more individualistic, you know, starting for lots of reasons we can get into. But so I think in some respects, you're flipping that on its head for me saying, maybe it's not about the tactic or the mechanics of the actual how we do it, but it's this belief that I matter. And it's coming from somebody who I, who's in my life that has my back. That you nailed it. That basic element of being seen, valued, and heard for who we are is fundamental. This concept called Ubuntu that I love. It's a South African concept that means I am because you are. And it's all about that place

where we meet in the middle. And in these discrete moments in time and we they're hard to map out and they're hard to predict but if if one of those moments happens um it's it's almost like this energy of energy space of possibility opens up for any of us we don't it doesn't have to be an adult child relationship things become possible in that moment because we're seen understood and and valued it doesn't seem like a a stretch and when we can put these ideas into other people through that meeting of the heart, soul, energy, this expansiveness opens up that I think opens up the possibility set. And it's about this basic element of feeling felt. That's a Dan Siegel term,

but feeling felt and feeling valued and worthy and loved. Awesome. And you reminded me that you spent some time in South Africa as a kid. Yes. Yes. My father is from Cape town and we moved from Boulder, Colorado when I was seven years old to Pretoria, South Africa in the middle of apartheid, which was quite a shocking adjustment in lots of different ways. If you think about Boulder, which is very liberal and outdoorsy and so forth, I was a very happy young girl in Boulder. South Africa was rigid and I'm an energy person i i could even as a kid feel the feel the tension um and uh it's there where i started to play tennis actually and tennis is what helped me have a sense of grounding feeling like a stranger in a strange land. I was very much the foreigner,

but I'd go to the tennis courts every day after school and hit ball after ball after ball and fell in love with tennis. And I still have that same felt sense of tennis as a home base, a tennis court as a home base now as an adult. Sport is a way to learn more about who we are. And it's a way to learn about how we lose, how we win, how we try, how all of it, like it's incredible. And before we go into mindsets and meaning making, which are kind of the big takeaways that you've got that we, that we started this conversation with. I, I, I do want to understand, um, what is happening in the brains for young people when they're doing sport. And I'll give you the clue that I'm, I'm, I'm wondering if you'll go to is that it actually can enhance reading and writing and memory. And because the way the brain is forming, that type of, it doesn't have to be sport,

but that type of engaging activity has other impacts other than just acquiring a physical skill. So can you talk about what's happening at the brain at a young age for young athletes? Yes. Great question. Well, there's a lot happening in the brain at a young age and there are different kinds of sports. There are open skill sports, which are like tennis. It's dynamically changing externally paced and unpredictable. There are close skill sports that are like running or swimming that are static and predictable and unchanging. And they wire up the brain in different ways. If you think about a tennis player, I'm both dealing with inbound,

I'm reacting to things coming at me. And I'm also outbound hitting the ball. So there is emotion regulation, there is, you know, kind of proprioception, physical balance, there's all these incredible number of calculations going on just to be able to hit a ball and then regulating oneself to be able to deal with nerves and anxiety and stress and so forth. Running and swimming, it's a different type of activity. Any type of physical activity is good. And one thing that all sports have in common are exercise biochemistry, which lifts everything. If you think about a tool for prevention on the mental health, emotional health, physical health side of things, and of course, health is foundational for all. We know that physical activity of any kind is literal medicine. You know, serotonin,

dopamine, oxytocin, norepinephrine, all of these biochemicals that, you know, it's better than going to the pharmacy. And it's an endogenous pharmacy, even better. So because of staying active, and we as human beings, we're designed to move our bodies to use our brains. It's just this dynamic process we've been engaged in since the beginning of time. We think better when we are also moving our bodies. So reading, attention is better, behavior is better, mood is better. There are lots of studies that bear all of this out. And grades are typically the lagging indicator. but for athletes grades tend to be better also. So there's the exercise biochemistry piece. There is the, you know,

the discipline piece that the, the character elements that go into showing up as an athlete, discipline, perseverance, sticking with it. These show up in, in, in grades and in other social and academic facing outcomes as well. But yes, I mean, every the stay active kids tend to be healthier kids, their moods are better, the depression, anxiety are lower, suicidal ideation and completion are lower. And the things that we track in social science all tend to be improved from physical activity. That's a big statement. That's a lot going on.

There's a lot going on for kids. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. All right. Let's go into mindsets first before we go into meaning making. First, can you just take a run? It's a word that we use often, the word mindset. But can you take a run at defining what you mean by mindset? of how almost the lens through which things come into our lives, our perceptual grounding for things that happen in our lives. And it really is the meaning that we make of things and our perception of the world around us and not objective reality that makes a difference when the rubber hits the road. Because again, what's real in the mind is real in the body at a molecular level. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've

built intentional routines into the way that I close my day. And Cozy Earth has become a new part of that. Their bedding, it's incredibly soft, like next level soft. And what surprised me the most is how much it actually helps regulate temperature. I tend to run warm at night and these sheets have helped me sleep cooler and more consistently, which has made a meaningful difference in how I show up the next day for myself, my family, and our team here at Finding Mastery. It's become part of my nightly routine. Throw on their lounge pants or pajamas, crawl into bed under their sheets, and my nervous system starts to settle. They also offer a 100-night sleep trial and a 10-year warranty on all of their bedding, which tells me, tells you, that they believe in the long-term value of what they're creating. If you're ready to upgrade your

rest and turn your bed into a better recovery zone, use the code FINDINGMASTERY for 40% off at CozyEarth.com. That's a great discount for our community. Again, the code is FindingMastery for 40% off at CozyEarth.com. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Caldera Lab. I believe that the way we do small things in life is how we do all things. And for me, that includes how I take care of my body. I've been using Caldera Lab for years now. And what keeps me coming back, it's really simple. Their products are simple and they reflect the kind of intentional living that I want to build into every part of my

day. And they make my morning routine really easy. They've got some great new products I think you'll be interested in. A shampoo, conditioner, and a hair serum. With Caldera Lab, it's not about adding more. It's about choosing better. And when your day demands clarity and energy and presence, the way you prepare for it matters. If you're looking for high quality personal care products that elevate your routine without complicating it, I'd love for you to check them out. Head to calderalab.com slash finding mastery and use the code finding mastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash finding mastery. What's real in the mind is real in the body from a molecular level, meaning that if you think something is threatening, your body lights up. If you think something is fun,

so it's a mindset of fun, I want to ask you more, but if you think something is going to be fun, your body responds. If you think it actually is fun or funny, your body responds. And so is that what you mean by what's true for the mind is true for the body? Yes. Yes. I mean, it's what we, what we perceive to be true is what's real in our minds. What, what might be stressful for you might not be stressful for me and vice versa. It's, it's a, it's a synthesis of our nature and nurture over time, our life experiences, how we've wired up behavior that's been modeled for us by adults in our lives as young people. There's this wonderful quote, don't worry that your children aren't listening to you. Do worry that they are always watching you. So So however we make meaning, however we perceive reality, that is what is going to be true for us. So we have the ability in this. This is the kind of optimistic science of hope.

This is another Jeffrey Bland term from last week. we have the ability to wire up around beliefs that are adaptive, health promoting, purposeful, get us to where we want to go versus the other way around. And this is another way that we as adults can really help young people shift lanes on their stories. And we as adults can be tremendous assets in helping people build stories about themselves that give them the lives that they, the best shot at having the lives they choose and deserve. Okay.

I want to get really concrete because this is so important because we throw around these ideas like, you know, our minds are meaning making machines. Okay. Yes. And, you know, it's, it, there's more to it than that, but I would love for you to do two things. If you could think through a way to decouple the brain and the mind. And I know what I'm, I know what I'm asking is like, in some respects, absurd, but maybe I'll just be more direct and say, do you, at some level, would you agree that the brain is the tissue that is the hardware is the it's, it's the structure. It's the chemistry, the housing of the chemistry and the housing of the electricity.

And then the mind is the software that's running the hardware or has a relationship with the hardware. I mean, are you thinking about it in those frames? Or do you have a better analogy that you try to explain the brain and the mind to folks? Because this meaning-making bit for me is much more about software than it is about hardware. If my hardware is doing what it's supposed to do, it's trying to keep me alive. And most of the meaning-making that's happening, if we just let the hardware do the thing, that's dangerous, and that's dangerous, and that looks scary.

And that person just looked at me in a weird way, like, that's a threat, that's a threat, this is a threat. Because at some level, there's so much threat. But if we can work with our minds to provide context and meaning, and there's a filter that things run through, an interpretation filter, that we tend to create different wiring, different electrical patterning, different neurochemistry, that the brain actually does materially change over time. So I can see 15 different ways that this analogy breaks down, but I'm looking for a better

way to help simplify the most complicated ecosystem in the world, which is the neurobiological psychological interface. So I'm going to, I'm going to add one more complicating factor to your question, which is it's the, it's the mind, brain and body. And so it's the whole nervous system. If we're talking about the mind as the nervous system and the viscera and the messages that we're getting from our organs and tissues and our viscera that are informing our emotions, that are informing our feelings, which are informing our conscious thoughts. That's one layer I would add to all of this because that's a vital piece of information.

And those are the earliest things to wire up in us. So those emotions and feelings are deeply embedded. Wait, wait, wait, wait, I don't want to get that right. So you added brain, mind, and nervous system. Is that what you're saying? It's important to get nervous system? Well, unless you're, I mean, if you're, if you're including the nervous system in the mind. No, it's actually, that's interesting. No, I'm, I consider the nervous system part. So I go brain is, is essentially, um, it's the central nervous system that I, when I think about the brain, I'm thinking about the brain spinal column, the central nervous system. And you're saying, yeah, but the other parts of the nervous system too are really important. The periphery and the information that's coming in from the outside world is also a big point. But I want to make sure I'm hearing this correctly. The sensory information we're taking in through our nervous system that the mind processes.

So as Mark Brackett was on the other day, talking about emotions, right? Emotions are, they're held in our body. They are, they are the organs, the viscera. Mary Helen talks about this as well. The base below the radar of consciousness emotions that we may have a stomachache if we're anxious. of that emotion, maybe anxiety or fear or panic or something along those lines, but having a tight chest, feeling stressed, that emotion is the under the radar screen element of it. And that's felt in the body. And that comes up through the nervous system into the mind where it is, the outward expression is a feeling. So I don't think, I think of the mind, the brain and the mind as I guess, hardware software is, is a pretty good analogy. It's not perfect, but, but, but I think about the body is a vital, a vital part of this whole informational process. Okay. Yeah. It's fun to add that layer to it because, and let's be really precise with our words, because you are great at this, which is emotions are physical and we can observe emotions. And like when you're, I don't know, your pupils dilate and your skin flushes and your breathing changes or your heart is pounding in a way that, you know, like emotions

are observable, and they're physical, and feelings are private. And so the difference between those two is night and day. And meaning that I could observe something in you and go, oh, are you nervous? And you could say, I see how you would think that, but I'm actually feeling really excited. And so the other part of this emotion slash feeling interface is the meaning making of it. When, if I'm about to, I don't know, go on stage or do something, my heart gives a little quick thump. I can feel that activation switch on. And I say to myself, because I've got a mindset of approaching challenges, like it's a great opportunity. And that is a mindset when I think of mindset.

Like I think of a challenge as an opportunity to share something that's meaningful to me. And in this context, at least. And my heart pumps and my breathing changes just a little bit. My, I feel that activation in my hands or my legs. And then I say to myself, I love this, you know, not like an adrenaline junkie, but I love the opportunity. My, I feel ready as opposed to when I was, this is why I got in this field.

Sheila is when I was 15 and I felt that. And, uh, it was through sport and it was surfing and I felt the same things and I said Fucking hate this. What am I doing to myself? I'm so overwhelmed like I'm i'm gonna be a disaster out there. Look, I can't even get my body together And you know what my legs feel different this doesn't feel right and you know what because my legs don't feel right I'm gonna be exposed because you know what maybe i my legs don't feel right, I'm going to be exposed. Because you know what? Maybe I'm not as good as I thought I was last week. Maybe I was just kind of full of myself.

Did I really do those nice big turns? And did I really do that? It's like all of a sudden, like the whole context drops out. And we start to question our own competencies. And anyways, so there's a little narrative there that I'm taking us too far, but. But that to the cascade effect of the story, right? So we, you, you do your reframe as I do the same thing. I remember the first time I had to give a, give a talk, my face, I mean, my face just turned bright red, like beet red. And that that heat still comes

up in me, my heart starts to pound. But I have learned to reframe it as excitement, like what an opportunity that I get to be here, sharing stuff that I care about with this group of people. And so taking that, the emotion starts in here, it's a physiological piece. The feeling, we get to do something with the feeling piece. We get to make meaning of that feeling piece from underneath you and not being able to engage your gifts to be able to ride the wave because you're nervous, you're now in kind of fear mode versus if you can reframe that as like, wow, I'm right here. This is excitement. I'm on the edge. I get to be here. I'm fully alive. Those are two very different states of being. And when we can train ourselves to occupy that latter state of being around what's possible, that's where great things happen because there's such an element of belief. And, and again, it's not it's not all genetics, not not all epigenetics, it's not all neurobiology. There's a big energy piece in all of this. When we can when we can help ourselves instill that belief in ourselves around what's possible.

That's where the universe opens up. What do you mean by energy? I think that that word can, we can go so many different directions. It's not clearly defined universally. So when you said there's an, you can work with the energy. Did you mean like a physiological energy? Do you mean a spiritual energy? Do you, what did you mean by energy there? I mean, there is physiological energy, but there is also a spiritual energy. And by spiritual, I mean not necessarily religion, but I mean really our higher order beliefs and values, the things that really drive us from the top down. My colleague, Jim Lehrer, who is my co-author on wise decisions, one of his early contributions that has remained a steadfast contribution to, I think, science and how we develop is his pyramid. And on the bottom, we have, it's physical, emotional, mental, and then spiritual. Those are the four kind of dimensions of this

pyramid. So if we develop from the ground up, from the bottom up, we become extraordinary from the top down. And these spiritual values are beliefs and the things that we hold the most dear that are our intrinsic motivators. These things that are bigger than most dear that are our intrinsic motivators, these things that are bigger than ourselves and aligned with our purpose. Those are the things that really drive us to become not just good, but truly extraordinary. And I'm not sure if I'm answering your question, but, you know, Jim's another major contribution of his is the focus on energy over time. So he took the concept of time management in his powerful engagement and broke it out to energy management. And when we align our highest and best energy with our purpose and the things that we care about, magical things are possible. And so it's a matter of knowing under what conditions our best energy is generated and aligning those, our energy with the things that we care about the most, with our highest priority elements in life. Finding Mastery is brought to you by iRestore.

When it comes to my health, I try to approach things with a proactive mindset. It's not about avoiding poor health. This is about creating the conditions for growth. Now, hair health is one of those areas that often gets overlooked until your hair starts to change. That's when people pay attention. That's why I've been loving iRestore Elite. It's a hands-free red light therapy device that helps stimulate dormant hair follicles, helps to support regrowth.

It's a clinical grade device. It's simple to use. It fits right into the rhythm of my day, whether I'm meditating, reading, prepping for one of our clients here at Finding Mastery. It's really simple. Now, red light therapy has some pretty amazing research behind it when it comes to cellular energy, tissue repair, inflammation control, as well as healing. iRestore is using those same principles to help your hair thrive. I really like this product.

I used it last night. I use it on a regular basis. They also offer a 12-month money-back guarantee. So if you don't see results, they'll refund you. No questions. I love that. They have real confidence in their product. And because you're a member of the Finding Mastery community,

right now they're offering our listeners huge savings on the iRestore Elite. When you use the code FindingMastery at iRestore.com slash FindingMastery. Again, that code is FindingMastery at iRestore.com slash FindingMastery for exclusive savings. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Lisa. Sleep is one of the foundational pillars of high performance. There's no arguing that. And when we have great sleep consistently and deeply, we give ourselves the best chance to operate at our best physically, cognitively, emotionally. Sleep affects it all. That's why I care about the environment that I sleep in so much. And of course, a great mattress, it matters. One of our teammates here at Finding Mastery has been sleeping on a Lisa mattress for over a year now, and it's made a noticeable difference. They specifically chose

one from their chill collection because they sleep hot, something I know many of us can relate to, myself included. What are they reporting back? Fewer wake-ups, deeper rest, and feeling more recovered when they jump into their work here at Finding Mastery. Lisa has several models to choose from. So whether you're a side sleeper, a stomach sleeper, or somewhere in between, there's a fit designed specifically for you. And what I appreciate most is their purpose. They've donated over 41,000 mattresses to people in need. I love that. So right now you can get 25% off all mattresses at lisa.com plus an extra $50 off when you use the code finding mastery at checkout. That's lisa.com. The promo code is finding mastery for 25% off and then plus an extra $50 on us because quality sleep is just too important to leave to chance. So if you think about some of the

foundational mindsets or the foundational processes to make meaning, I found that on this energy management piece or expression piece is that if the mindset is stress, change, challenge, makes me, I love it, let's go, I'm going to design my life in the same fashion that elite athletes design their life is to every day push to the upper edges, stay in that edge as long as I possibly can, learn how to dance on the edge, and then have incredibly accurate feedback loops on how I danced, how I played on the edge, how well I was able to execute the things that I'm trying to execute well at. And so it's a fundamental designing of that, but it starts with a mindset, which is, I love the way that I'm able to experience the edges. And then so I get back into it. And then when there's a mistake on the edge,

you say, well, that's, that's okay. Cause that's where learning happens. That's another mindset. So it's not like, it's not like there's these just throw away comments, but there's fundamental first principles about that, that precede a mindset. So I'm wondering if you could help with some clarity on mindsets or meaning making mechanisms that you found to be useful for you. For me, I would say that really trying to find the light on the horizon for anything, you know, looking for, as you said, if we are at the edges, let's say I had a bad match or a tough day or, you know, difficult interaction with someone, I just try to go back and learn from it. I mean,

we, you know, I've got a quote here, breathe, you're right where you're meant to be. I just try to learn from wherever I am and whatever I'm doing. And that, you know, that takes humility. It takes vulnerability and, um, and, and also just keeping in mind the things that are the most important to me. So, uh, going back to our book, we, we have, uh, the wise decisions book. We have an acronym in there called Yoda and Yoda is your own decision advisor. And it's really this, this inner place, our inner voice and how we can train our inner voice to be this powerful coach, to help us make decisions that work for us rather than against us. And we developed something called the Yoda code. Um, and the Yoda code is just five or six words that are, that really

encapsulate how we want to be remembered by those who love us the most. It's a bit of a variation on the tombstone exercise. And so there are good days and bad days, right? But if we show up and do the very best we can to embody those characteristics and try to learn as we go and have humility about the process. You know, every day is, you know, every day is an opportunity to learn. And as you say, create a new masterpiece. So my Yoda code is kindness, generosity, gratitude, courage, integrity, and humility. And if I can bring those things into, if I can embody those things as I move through my day, it's a good day. And, you know, in terms of productivity and outcome, you know, I think it's so important to value process over outcome in general and teach that to our children also. It's not about the end game because after the end game, there's the next end game. But it's how we carry ourselves through life that's really important.

And that is what we're modeling for our children every day as we engage in little interactions, big interactions, help them make decisions. They absorb so much from us that we don't, that just, it's not said. It's really, it's the energy that we experience together and how that gets embedded in to our children. I love what you're saying because I think you just described in one, one part of what a living masterpiece is for me, which is being able to express myself at the edge in alignment with my first principles. And it's that artistic expression on the edge when there's like there's something I'm aware of what's on the line and that what can

be on the line it doesn't need to literally be the cliff's edge it can be the tenderness of an emotional conversation and to be able to um to eloquently and artfully in alignment with core first principles be able to express. And part of that expression sometimes is deep listening. But you just had, I think it was like seven or eight values or virtues that you were able to clarify and say out loud. And I bet if I asked you again, you would know exactly what those are. It sounds like you've done that work. Is that what a wise decision is for you, is being able to work in alignment with your core virtues or your first principles? It is making decisions that help me stay aligned with how I want to show up in the

world. And those core principles help me stay on a track of the things that I say yes to, the things that I say no to, how I take care of myself. That helps me stay in a lane where I think I can offer the best of myself to the things that I care about, to the people I love, to the organizations that I'm involved with. I know that I do my best thinking and I bring my best heart and soul into situations when those are the principles that I embody. So, you know, I can, I can, and that's that spiritual dimension. That really is that spiritual dimension. And, and that element of, and I firmly believe that, you know, I was put down on this earth for a reason to be mom to our boys, but also to do work that really leaves our world a better place

in the end than it was when I got here in my own unique way. It's like Jeffrey Bland said last week, you know, the universe will have a tendency towards entropy. So anything that we can do to bring an element of order back into our world is a positive thing. And so just staying aligned with purpose, doing the work that is much bigger than me, where it's a one plus one equals three or more kind of thing with the people I work with. They, they, they help me grow. I help them grow. It's this beautiful, uh, you know, exponential, uh, expansion of learning, of curiosity, of, of, um, of joy and of love. It's very cool. What, what an asset you are to the people in your life, you know, people that have trusted you to take care of them. And you fundamentally have committed your life efforts to taking care of other people, to seeing what's possible in their lives, to be able to challenge them, to enroll in many respects a community and to muster the resources, both internal and external, to surround people. You know, the Ubuntu and the community-minded approach that you have is not lost in anything that you're taking in life, as well as some really applied

practices about how to help people develop and enhance the meaning make machine, especially during the sensitive years of like in the children's and young adult life phase, as well as helping, you know, think about the importance we play in developing the mindsets of the people in our lives. And if we could, we started by talking about mindsets and meaning making. Could you take us home with a couple of practices that have been material for you? And specifically, like I'm thinking about speaking right into people that are taking an important part in shaping another person's future, whether that be at work or at home or on the field. So can you speak right into like a couple best practices to help people just be a little bit better? seek to understand what's going on with the other person.

Use your mind and your body. Use your instinct. See how it feels. See how it feels in your body and try to understand in your mind what's going on at a pre-verbal level because the what's happening on the inside is the most important part and those beautiful moments of connection come when we see inside of another person that's what creates the opportunity for that ubuntu um and the second thing that i would say is um generosity to self take care of yourself

do those things that help you get your own oxygen mask on. And it's one thing that we high, you know, high functioning people sometimes don't do. They let the things, the, the, the gentleness for self fall to the bottom of the priority list. So doing those things that are important for self-care, I think are vital. And then the final thing, the thing that works for me, I do a lot of writing and I make sense of, I synthesize things as I write. And I write usually in the morning and I write in the evening right before I go to bed. And I think about those moments. And I've got a gratitude journal. I think about those moments that really fueled my day. They're 95% of the time, they're those moments with people that happen sometimes unpredictably. They're usually very short, but they're the beautiful human moments. And that's all we have. In the end, we have these beautiful life moments where we can give our soul and our love and a bit of ourselves

to others in a way that helps them feel felt and make a material difference in how they think of themselves and what's possible. That's fun. Okay. How do you answer this? It all comes down to love. I am love. My vision is to help make sports a healthier and better place, safer place for young athletes where they can find joy, learn and grow. Very cool. Why is sports so central and so important in your life? Because really, my identity is as an athlete and when we moved to South Africa when I was a little girl and I found my sea legs in this um difficult country with difficult circumstances on the tennis court we moved back to the United States I did the same basic thing here in the United States. Tennis helped form a foundation for me to grow into a better version of myself. I've had, and it's still a sport that I love today.

I still continue to play and compete. I've got this love affair with tennis that has gone on since the beginning of time. The reason youth sports is so important to me is because it really, tennis gave me a baseline of self-care and wellness skills embedded as habits early on, the things that have kept me afloat across life. Had I not been an athlete, had I not been healthy, had I not had an outlet to exercise my creativity, sports helped me dream about bigger possibilities and opportunities. I care so much about sports and coaches being good coaches because I've had both excellent coaches and I've had not good coaches. I've had bad coaches and the vast majority of my coaches have been extraordinary people who helped me grow into a better version of myself. But I had one coach who was sexually abusive when I was 15 years old, who I trusted like a parent. And that experience completely derailed my developmental train, junior year of high school, and particularly senior year of high school. It really changed how I thought about the world around me and safety and trust.

And here I was, this first generation American. We had no money. We had really tennis was it for me, but tennis supported me in all of my other contexts in helping me thrive. It helped me be a better student. It gave me a sense of confidence and competence. And it really, it got me places in life that I would not have, that would have not have happened otherwise. The coaches who were extraordinary coaches are the ones who helped me learn life lessons through sport.

They made it fun. They saw me. They valued me. They met me where I was. They pushed me. They helped me see things that were that were possible. And I'm grateful to every one of them, but particularly the ones who during my latter part of high high school my tennis fell off a cliff I was really I was really good when we were talking about playing um a couple of pro tournaments and finding sponsors but tennis went away from me as a safe haven and my parents had just divorced. And so the whole, the whole system that I knew that I relied on

went away. And, um, it was, uh, it was the hardest thing that I ever, that I ever went through. And there's a, there's a fast forward on this, but, um, wait, wait, let's not fast forward yet. Let's not fast forward on this, but... Wait, wait, let's not fast forward yet. Let's not fast forward yet. This is rad. I'll tell you why. It's because this whole conversation I've been listening going, man, she's a powerhouse.

Look how she just said that. Oh, she's completely metabolized this. This is fully aligned in her. Oh, I see. I feel the research, how it is in every part of your life. And it feels like work and life. There's no balance because it's, it's complete. It is a yin yang every day between how you are showing up in the relationships in your life, the relationship with yourself, with others and the others being like, maybe they're students, maybe they're your family, maybe they are coaches, partners, whatever. And I'm like,

it's rad. And now, now you say, listen, one of the, the reason sport matters to me so much is because it showed me just about everything I wanted to know about myself. And it created the greatest obstacle, the greatest challenge, the greatest trauma I've ever had. And I worked through it and I don't wish it on anybody, but I've completely aligned my purpose with my life experiences in an authentic way. And so tell me if I'm off on any of this, but that's probably why I was like, oh, this is amazing, amazing, amazing. And my hope is that maybe when I don't know how much you talk about your experience in sexual abuse. However, I would love, well, maybe just answer that. Like how often do you talk about this? I've talked about it privately. I've spoken a little bit about it publicly, but not much. We are in a time right now where I, I want to be an asset for

safe sport, the, the athletes who need protection because for for optimal development to happen in any context but we're talking about sports here safety must come first period end of statement that's why i spent time studying the biological embedding of stress and adverse childhood experiences when i was at john Hopkins School of Public Health. Also studying these protective and compensatory experiences. So the ACEs on the one side and the PACEs on the other side. And sports coaches have this incredible opportunity to be a protective and compensatory experience in the life of a young person.

All adults do. And I will say, Mike, that what really brought me back online, my senior year, which was grim, it was a bad year. And I, again, I wouldn't want anyone to have to go through what I went through that year, I felt all alone. And I was I was on the edge. But what does that mean? Does that mean suicidal edge? I wasn't. I was on the edge. But what... Does that mean suicidal edge? I wasn't... I did call the suicide hotline one night because I felt so isolated. And I just wanted someone to talk to.

We weren't talking about it in my family. It was difficult for a number of different reasons. You would not have the pictures from that night. That was Christmas Eve, 1982. You wouldn't have known anything was wrong with me. And that's what we see in our youth today. We're very good at covering things up. I felt tremendous shame. I felt like a failure. I'd gone from being a top student and a really excellent tennis player to 40 pounds overweight and ditching class and just not in any way proud of who I was and really upset with myself for not being able to get my sea legs back and figure it out on my own.

God, I'm so happy that you're, you're, you're saying this because there are so, you know, the numbers on people that are abused and it's, it's not a sport thing. Yes. In sport, but other places too. Like what an asset you are to people because you, you understand this and you spent your whole life working with your pain, converting it into purpose. And if we don't know our pain and we don't face our traumas and we don't work at a level of depth that you've worked, we end up kind of just getting knocked around.

We end up feeling like we don't have power because that's the real abuse is that somebody traumatized our psychology about who we are. And we were a toy for them. We were a, a tool or what's the word I'm looking for? Like we were, we just didn't matter and we were discarded our humanity is discarded for their pleasure or for their gain in some respect and the wake of destruction that comes from that is tremendous and when i say i'm happy it's more like not happy like clap our hands happy but like oh god i'm glad you're in the world to be able to speak on it this way.

I thank you. That means so much. And this is the, this is the first, um, conversation of this nature that I've had that is, you know, and I, I, I do, I do want to talk about this in the way that I can be the biggest asset to help sport get to where it needs to go, because we're not there, and they need help. And the developmental story of what happens for young people, even in a moment of one moment for a coach or an adult, can be a lifetime of riding the ship for a young person because these memories don't go away. And if they get replayed in a downward spiral, that's where despair lies. And we lose human potential. We lose, individuals lose quality of life. life and every person needs to be seen and loved and valued for them to light up and activate themselves to be change agents in our world. And so what helped me get back was a tennis coach at my high school. I had never played high school tennis my senior year.

Well, senior year, I did play because they had these rules in place when I was in high school that you couldn't play tournaments at the same time you were playing high school tennis. And girls high school tennis was in the spring and all of the lead up tournaments for the Nationals were also in the spring. So I didn't play sophomore and junior year because I was playing tournaments. Senior year, I basically quit tennis at the end of my junior year because I was so disgusted with myself and I just felt hopeless. And I just thought the story I told myself was, you know, I've been working every single day. I've been going to the tennis club and practicing and I just want to be like a normal kid. I want to be a normal kid my senior year. And I did. And it didn't, what I found was it was like the rug coming out from underneath me. Those structures and those behaviors that kept me in place wound up falling away from me. But then enter my coach. He wasn't really, he wasn't uh he was just a kind person he was he was not a good player he

was kind of goofy and he I'm sure he sensed there was something wrong with me I was you know again I was 40 pounds heavier it was I physically totally changed and um it was really an act of kindness that got me back on the court, him offering to me to come be a part of the team without any demand for performance. And that's what got me back on the court again. There was another adult who I played tennis with that spring who was, she was, she just loved me for who I was. The rest of it didn't matter. And that was really what helped me get my sea legs to work my way back. I did get a D1 college scholarship

and played and played some pro tournaments in Germany for a few years afterwards. So I got to live a version of my story, but this is why I go to live a version of my story. But this is why I go to the kindness piece and love. And I think love is what makes the world go around. Period and a statement. Period and a statement. Sheila, if you could speak into somebody that has been, let's say, you know, recently been abused and then somebody who has experienced abuse a long time ago, you know, could you speak

into that person right now? What would you want to say if they're with us in this conversation? And I'll just remind you that podcasts are super intimate because like literally you are in their ears, you know, like if you could speak right to that person who's listening, who's experienced abuse in their life, what would you say to them? love yourself, take that pain, take that anger, take that fuel and turn it into something that's going to help others because that will help you in the process and transform your transform. Start with yourself, the self-love, having people around you who you know you can trust, who support you, who see you, who protect you, who nurture you, and then make your pain

your purpose. And you'll light up the world in your own unique way. And in the end, that's all we can do. Making the impact that I can make in my way, I don't know what that's going to be, but I sure love the process of trying because there's a fire inside of me to just keep taking that step, one more step forward and to take the things that are the hardest for us. Other people, I think one of the things about trauma

is that it's a very isolating thing. It feels like we're all alone, but we're not all alone. We're never all alone. And when we can learn about it, unpack our own story, rewire our story around one that is one of purpose and possibility, it's really a beautiful thing. And I think that's where the real firepower comes from in terms of people that I've seen move through difficult situations and turn it into something that helps others thrive. I mean, there's nothing more beautiful than that. That's so good. You know, Dr. Mark Brackett said something very similar,

which was, you know, he had Uncle Marvin, you know, that Uncle Marvin just saw him and, you know, shared with love and kindness in a way that allowed him to get free. And so I had somebody in my life and he was a mentor from the age of 15 and what's up Gary and so Gary's been with me my whole life and he just keeps seeing me you know and he's just like and and you know it's like this kind human that that just keeps seeing what's possible in my life and says oh it's always been like that for you Mike like you've always had these you know whatever whatever I'm like oh tell me more Gary like it's always been like that for you, Mike. Like you've always had these, you know, whatever, whatever. I'm like, oh, tell me more, Gary. Like it's really hard sometimes inside of me. And like, you know, like, God, I wish we all had that. And you are probably that person for so many people. And I feel so fortunate to have Gary and others that have been able to

give their precious time and attention, you know, to seeing seeing me and i'm just so fortunate and it's not lost to me that's we're we're in a similar profession and uh we've had similar um mentors that have done something really special it's an extraordinary ride it really is and uh it feels ever expansive. And, you know, you're Gary. That's gas in your emotional gas tank. That's rocket fuel. And it doesn't even, it's about love. It's about love and being seen. And it doesn't, the content doesn't matter, right?

It just sort of opens things up. I love that. Because I was working with a large enterprise company, and this is in a senior leadership capacity. And we're talking about what are the best practices and just best practices to help people flourish, right? Help them become their very best. And I said, you know, it was almost like a throwaway comment, but it was, it's so foundational that it's never going to be a throwaway. But the comment that I made was like, you know, you just really have to care. You have to really care about what we're talking about. Really care. And they looked at me and they go, yeah.

They said, how do you do that? I thought, Jesus, I don't know. Like you just, how do you say like, just, you know, be, I don't know. Like, how do you care? That's the, that's the, it starts in here. It's the brain and the mind, but it's the body like that caring. It's a full body thing. It's not a thought. It's not an action. It's a fully embodied state. One thing I want to make sure and pop in here too, because you'll care about this. If we look at the, we collapse the research around long-term health, brain health, which is of course, because, you know, mental and physical health are two sides of the same coin, same molecules, all the same thing. But there are three kind of major factors that stand out in people who thrive, who are healthier over the

long term and people who are not. One is doing something physically active every day. That brain, that exercise biochemistry is so powerful and it lifts everything else. Having friends, having a reliable, strong social network doesn't have to be a lot, doesn't have to be a big social network, but they have to be people you can count on who love you, who see you. And then the third is having a sense of purpose and having something to get out of bed for every morning that's bigger than us as individuals. Isolation is, you know, there's that one study, isolation is as bad as smoking 15 cigarettes a day. But being a part of something, having a sense of belonging and having that sense of connection to purpose is what is going to keep us in here for the long game. Dr. Sheila Olson Walker,

thank you. Thank you so much for sharing best practices, sharing psychological science, and sharing truth, pain, converted to purpose in a way that is authentically yours. So what a great emblem and a great model for living well. So I just, Sheila, again, thank you. Well, Mike, thank you. Thank you. And do you want to know my definition of mastery? I do. I would say mastery is intrinsically motivated brilliance. And something that is channeled through us, that arises from the deepest part of ourselves, but it is channeled through us, that helps us be spectacular in a manner that is aligned with our purpose. Look at that. look at that look at that nothing to do with capabilities it's more about an alignment and so mastery is not skill-based

it is um instrument it's a tuned instrument the skills come. I think when we, when we do the things that we love and love the things that we do, we're going to put our fuel into that. And the fuel that's about discipline time and the fuel that's the off time where we're just kind of thinking about something that we think is interesting, or we want to, it's, it's mulling around in our heads. It's one parallel, Jim Collins talked about things that we're good at versus things that we're encoded for. So things that we can make ourselves good at by hard work and things that just really arise through us that we're encoded for. um you um what was you talked about extraction versus unlocking uh and you know i think mastery is just unlocking a passion and those passions burn the brightest when they're aligned with purpose great ending thank you for sharing so brilliantly i I appreciate you. And thank you again. I'm just so deeply honored to be on your podcast and you be well. Namaste.

Namaste. Very cool. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community and if you're enjoying the show the easiest no-cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're listening also if you haven't already please consider dropping us a review on apple or spotify we are incredibly grateful for the support and feedback If you're looking for even more insights, we have a newsletter we send out every Wednesday. Punch over to findingmastery.com slash newsletter to sign up.

The show wouldn't be possible without our sponsors and we take our recommendations seriously. And the team is very thoughtful about making sure we love and endorse every product you hear on the show. If you want to check out any of our sponsor offers you heard about in this episode, you can find those deals at findingmastery.com slash sponsors. And remember, no one does it alone. The door here at Finding Mastery is always open to those looking to explore the edges

and the reaches of their potential so that they can help others do the same. So join our community, share your favorite episode with a friend, and let us know how we can continue to show up for you. Lastly, as a quick reminder, information in this podcast and from any material on the Finding Mastery website and social channels is for information purposes only. If you're looking for meaningful support, which we all need, one of the best things you can do is to talk to a licensed

professional. So seek assistance from your healthcare providers. Again, a sincere thank you for listening. Until next episode, be well, think well, keep exploring.