Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - ICYMI: The Evolution of Mastery, with Abby Wambach

Episode Date: January 25, 2023

This week, we’re doing something a little different – we are excited to re-release a fresh version of our 2019 conversation with the US World Cup and Olympic soccer legend, Abby Wambach. So – why are we re-releasing an episode? And why this conversation in particular? Because transitions are an increasingly prominent part of modern life. As the pace of change accelerates, so does our need to be able to eloquently adapt and adjust. And Abby has demonstrated mastery here.  She is an emblem for doing the inner work – she’s moved from the sport world to the business world with grace while living aligned to her values throughout. So I’m really excited to bring her back to the forefront of our community.If you heard this conversation when it first came out a few years ago, it’s definitely worth revisiting. If you haven’t… you’re in for a real treat. We’d love to hear your feedback on this episode re-release. Hit us on social or send a note to [e-mail]. If it resonates, we’d be stoked to bring back some more gems from the Finding Mastery archive._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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And today we are going to be doing something a little different. We are re-releasing a fresh version of our 2019 conversation with the U.S. World Cup and Olympic soccer legend, Abby Wambach. So why are we re-releasing an episode? And why this conversation in particular? Because transitions are an increasingly prominent part of modern life. As the pace of change accelerates, so does our need to be able to eloquently adapt and adjust. And Abby has demonstrated mastery here. She is an emblem for doing the inner work. She moved from the sport world to the business world with grace, while living aligned to her values throughout. So I'm really excited to bring back Abby to the forefront of our community. If you heard this conversation when it first came out a few years

ago, it's definitely worth revisiting. If you haven't, you're in for a real treat. We'd also love to hear your feedback on this episode re-release. Hit us on social or send a note to info at findingmastery.net. If it resonates, we'd be stoked to bring back some more gems from the Finding Mastery archive. So with that, let's revisit this conversation with the legend, Abby Wambach. Abby, how are you? I'm so good. How are you, man? Great. So thank you for this conversation. Same to you. You know, I think that especially with people who, you know, we don't do the same thing, but I think we admire very similar parts of the things that we do. And so much of it, there's so much overlap. And I love

the fact that you come at it from a totally different perspective. And there's so much to learn. There's so much to gain from conversations like this. So thanks for having me. Great. I'm stoked on it. And your body of work speaks for itself. Like you have changed the game. You've influenced generation of people. You have demonstrated courage through vulnerability. And so not only are you extraordinary on the field, but your life speaks to that same extraordinary ways off the field. So like, before we get going legitimate congratulations on a life well-lived and you're only, you know, halfway through or three or one quarter of the way through. So yeah. Um, before we go backwards, what is next for you? I think that that's been the question I, I have been asking myself since I left the game. That's the hardest

question to answer for athletes who've dedicated their whole lives to this thing, this one pursuit. I started a leadership company that I'm really proud of, really excited about signing clients right now in the corporate world to help women achieve high levels of success in the corporate world. You know, my belief system, this is so bizarre because I'm very fascinated with corporate culture and how that needs to change in a lot of ways for us to really achieve any kind of level of equality that we really dream of. You know, people don't think about it, but the amount of products that get put out into the world, the amount of ideas that you even have about the world are created through the corporations that you support, that you buy, that you participate in.

And if not enough, women or marginalized folks are sitting on those boards, sitting in levels of leadership to make decisions about what kind of products and what kind of things you're putting out into the world, then there's going to be a skewed vision and a skewed product and a skewed culture that's going to enable this inequality that we see. So that's kind of the way in which I figured out how I want to try to change the world in the best way that I possibly can in my own small way. So that's kind of long-term, like big dream that I have in the short term. You know, I have a family i have three kids um i'm almost two years married now so i've just been um kind of settling into family life i just put out a book called wolf pack which has been really great and fun and um you know just trying to explore the things that i never had the chance at doing because i was so singularly focused on playing soccer for so many years. And there's a terrifying realization when you retire about that, like, what am I going to do now? But I think I'm past the terror of it. And I think I'm into this kind of child's mind of

exploring the world and trying to figure out what it is that moves me and things that challenge me, things that will make me the best person I possibly can become. And so that's kind of what I'm in pursuit of right now. Being an athlete makes me know that I can have real vision and I can process and I can work hard and I can struggle and I can succeed and I can fail and still and re figure out what it is that I want and what is the most beautiful and truest version of myself I can become. Jeez. I mean, there's so much in there, you know, like, okay, so where do we start with that? Is that the fact that you're in the R and D phase and you're trying to retool and figure out what's next for you? Is that phase? Is this phase challenging? Is it? Does it? Yeah. Oh, okay. Yeah. Yes. Like, there are days where I feel like

it's like a silly question. Is it challenging? Yeah. I mean, I know it is. But like, what, what is the texture of the challenge for you? How do you deal with that challenges is? Yeah. So this is gonna sound so ridiculous, but I have to say it. As a pro athlete, I woke up every day and I had a mission of just getting better. Our national team has kind of this bigger mission where we relentlessly pursue excellence. I found myself that, you know, this culture that I was living among and these women that I was living beside getting better every day was part of my pursuit. to the actual playing of the game that were, that were being taken care of by somebody else, whether it be a general manager or equipment manager and like all of these things, calendar schedule, like all of this stuff that allowed me just to focus on getting better every

day. But when you're no longer in that environment, you know, and this was happening for me for 15 years, that somebody else was dealing with all of the minutia of, in some ways, my whole life. So I had to like, leave, relearn how that I was building with Coach Carroll, we had a CEO that came in and he was a serial entrepreneur, super, super aggressive in understanding the entrepreneur space, meaning that you got to make great decisions, got to make them fast. Like, you know, I had a great framework and we only hire Olympians, sports psychologists and Olympians, And they were great. And then we started to realize, oh, you know what? Everything was developed for them, really smart, hardworking, get right on

the edge. And so we had to figure that out early days, which I think that I'll take it all day long because of the extraordinary understanding of what it takes to become one's best is so rare that if we can just backfill with the right structure to help people figure that out, and I love it. And for you to say that I've watched it for the last six years for folks, that same struggle. And so, yeah, but on the other side, there's an incredible asset. Totally. And you got to, there's a breaking through. There's a, there's a humility and a humbling that has had, has needed to happen for me that I, um, at one point I had to call my agent and be like, listen, I need you to come down here and help me figure this out.

Mike, and he showed me his phone. This is like a true story. And he had a dot on every single one of the days of his calendars on his iPhone. And I was like, so you have something that you have to do every single day. And he's like, yes, I do every single day, whether it's kids stuff or work stuff, I have something to do every single day. And I just thought, well, that's interesting because in my mind as an athlete sport, like the game itself was the fun part. Then like any kind of sponsorship or dinner or something that I had to do was work. But now I had to transition and I had to like reframe what work was and what it really meant. It was like this thing that took me away from the game that I love to play. Um, this thing that was kind of like

something I didn't always want to do. Um, and, and reframing that was really important. And then, and then, um, finding the wins was huge for me, figuring out and defining what a win was like defining what success means outside of the game because it's super black and white like winning is understandable when you are playing in a game somebody wins somebody loses sometimes you tie whatever but in the business world and now in my life like winning is totally different and defined in so many different ways in every different part of my life. That was really important for me. But figuring out how to make a schedule and calendar my life was a game changer. day, which, which when it gets scheduled, which the process of figuring it out, now that I have this calendarized vision, every single time I've got something going on, I'm like in it and I'm a hundred percent and I'm like the best in the world at it, but it has taken a long time.

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deal for two full months for free. Terms and conditions apply. Finding Mastery is brought to you by David Protein. I'm pretty intentional about what I eat and the majority of my nutrition comes from whole foods. And when I'm traveling or in between meals on a demanding day, certainly I need something quick that will support the way that I feel and think and perform. And that's why I've been leaning on David protein bars. And so has the team here at Finding Mastery. In fact, our GM, Stuart, he loves them so much. I just want to kind of quickly put them on the spot. Stuart, I know you're listening. I think you might be the reason that we're running out of these bars so quickly. They're incredible, Mike. I love them. One a day, one a day.

What do you mean one a day? There's way more than that happening here. Don't tell. Okay. All right. Look, they're incredibly simple. They're effective. 28 grams of protein, just 150 calories and zero grams of sugar. It's rare to find something that fits so conveniently into a performance-based lifestyle and actually tastes good. Dr. Peter Attia, someone who's been on the show, it's a great episode by the way, is also their chief science officer. So I know they've done their due diligence in that category. My favorite flavor right now is the chocolate chip cookie dough. And a few of our teammates here at Finding Mastery have been loving the fudge brownie and peanut butter. I know, Stuart, you're still listening here. So getting enough protein matters. And that can't be understated, not just for strength, but for energy and focus, recovery

for longevity. And I love that David is making that easier. So if you're trying to hit your daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash finding mastery. The idea that you can reframe something, that's a heavy psychological term, right? Like that's a principle in psychology. Have you done a bunch of internal work like with psychology or psychologists?

Have you done some internal work? Yeah. Yeah, I've done quite a bit of it, um, through all phases of my career as, uh, you know, sports psychology, um, my own personal psych. I've, I've, I've gone and seen many therapists throughout my time. Um, and then at the end of my career, I was really suffering and during my dark, my dark ages, so to say, so, so they say, um they say, I had to see therapy, I sought therapy out. And, you know, I think that understanding yourself is the biggest game that we're all actually playing. Some people focus on it more than others, which is fine. Everybody gets to choose. That's the

beauty of being a human being. I find that the more time I focus on myself and my internal self, the better outside external self I live. And when you sit in the chair and you're working with somebody and you're really working for awareness, you're working for different ways of understanding, different ways of seeing things and saying things to yourself, what is the process that works best for you? Like, how do you sit up and show up in that chair? Like, what does that look like for you? All athletes, once like the light turned on that this was a place in which I could go to, to get better as a person. Once I saw that the dividends paying off after having done it one, two, three times, once I saw this, um, this different relationship I was having with myself and exploring that and

finding, um, finding different perspectives. Cause I think ultimately that's what therapy is about is, is searching for a new perspective so that you can become a better person or the, the, you know, we all think we're, we're one person, but when you actually figure out who you are, um, and who you're evolving to be, um, you know, I think that when I dedicated myself to trying to get better, that, that encompassed every part of my life, regardless of, regardless of how hard it was, regardless of how confusing it was, regardless of how crazy making it was at times. And I know that that word, I don't want to overuse that word. And I know that there's sensitivities around it. But I did feel like

there was something wrong with me for a very long time. Um, and so I was, I was able to compartmentalize a lot of the parts of my life. I'm really good athlete. This is who I am. But then when I started to actually peel back that onion, uh, and realize, oh, okay, like there is more to this, there's more to the, to, to the world and to life than, than just this game. Um, and I got to figure that piece out before anything else will actually sort itself out. So there's three things as humans we can train. We can train our craft, which is the physical technical tools that we're working on. We can train our body, which is our carriage to be able to allow us to do that thing. And then we can train our mind.

And that's it, right? Those are the three things. And I love knowing that you are, I don't know, arguably one of the best to ever play the game and the highest score men and women included that I love hearing you talk about the internal work and how hard it is. It is not easy and how rewarding it is. i you know the way i i know you and that's from a public standpoint and it's reinforced in this conversation is that you're really free the public perception that i've been able to watch you when i watch you play is like super intense like a alpha competitor right and i don't know how you respond to me saying this, but, but you're really freed up. Like you've got space and I wouldn't have guessed this much space. Did you have this much internal space when you were playing or was it a different Abby? I think it was probably a different Abby. There's a selfishness that has to be a part of your life when you're a pro athlete,

or at least that's what I'm trying to excuse some of my selfish behavior now. But in order to achieve that level of success, I know that their success has to, and is related to how much they're actually delving into themselves. Right. So like, in layman terms, it's like, everything that I did was about me. And it was, I was so sick of it at the end, truthfully. But it was like, how much I'm feeding my body, how much I'm hydrating my body, how much I'm feeding my body, how much I'm hydrating my body, how much I'm recovering my body, how much I'm training my body, how much I'm practicing and this technique and that technical ability. Like there's so much emphasis on myself. And that was what was required in so many ways to, to achieve high levels and not only achieve it, but sustain

it. Like those are different things. Being great is accessible to, I think a lot of people. I mean, that is the dream. That's like what you're, you're in search of. And I think at the end of my career, I found myself feeling, well, first of all, I was, I was, I was abusing alcohol and prescription drugs. And so that wasn't great. So it was taking me down. I was self-medicating. I was terrified of, of, of retiring because I didn't know who I would be without this one identity that I had molded myself to become for so many years. Um, so I've done quite a bit of work. I think that getting sober was probably the best thing that I could have ever done at the time for the transition I was heading

into into retirement. And of course, for the rest of my life, figuring out and freeing myself up from that selfish inclination, because it was like, you have to actually, you have to like cut the rope between your, your current post career self and your past, you know, in soccer, like there was just a lot of, um, a lot of my, my mindset was about who I was and what, what it meant and what I was feeding myself. And it just, it didn't feel like how everyday people live and, um, live in a, in a good way. Yeah. It, it, it looks really narcissistic, you know, like, right. I'm not calling you narcissistic. I'm saying that like on the outside, in the non-supportive world of that type of pursuit, that it ends up looking really narcissistic because it's all about me. And I also think that there was a time, it was probably like 80s, 90s, early 2000s, when the pursuit was really the zeitgeist, the cultural zeitgeist was about be your best. And we're starting to see that change, I think in a good way, which is be your best so you can help others do the same.

Right. So there's, there is a change happening. And as hard a time as people have given millennials, like they're standing up for something really important, which they're saying, Hey, listen, I might not work the same way you worked. I might not do my life the same way you did, but I'm certainly going to say, Hey, you're kind of screwing up the planet a little bit. And you got this work thing really backwards. And it's not just you, right? Like there's, there's a social community here that is really important. My social life is really important. So we're starting to see some migration from it just being about me to it's like the life vest in the in the, when people are going down on a plane, like put your life vest on so you can help others, you know, so that's starting to happen

a little bit. But anyways, that all that being said, what is it that was underneath the surface for you that was driving you to be not only have peak experience, like one time get a win, but to sustain the high level that you wanted to sustain. What was underneath the surface for you? I had an interesting conversation when I first got on the national team. My national team coach at the time, April Heinrichs, she pulled me aside. We had a little meeting, kind of impromptu meeting before practice one day. And she said, do you think you're training as hard as you possibly can train using your complete physical self to be the best player for our team? And I said, honestly, no. And she asked me, she said, why?

And I said, I'm afraid that I'm going to hurt one of my teammates. And she said, OK, I get it. She said, but if you don't play your best and you don't play your strongest as your strongest self, you're actually making them worse. And that was a really important moment for me. So in terms of like, what's like right underneath, I think that I've always been striving to be noticed by my mom and dad. And that has just like gone into the stratosphere. You know, attention is kind of the thing. I'm a performer on the Enneagram.

I'm a number, I'm a, I don't even know what that is, number three. And, and I think that that has driven me for all of my life. But when you combine that with this unique ability for me to understand on a deep level that I don confusing because I'm such a competitor, but also a fierce leader and a fierce teammate. And the combination of those two things has, I think, really been kind of the backbone of and that's the way that I've lived and I was in my career. So I think the attention bit was the thing that kept me striving. And I think that the team component, which is sitting right next to that, that need for attention for me, was the thing that kind of kept me going for a long period of time. Because as you get older, you know, your statistics probably come down a little, your output, because you're

just, your body's aging. So you're not as fast. You can't lift as much. You have to recover more. Hopefully your mind speeds up. But the reality is, is like the true joy that I was getting at the end of my career was like, how can I get all of these people to like, to unite together? How can I get 23 type a women who all think they're the best in the world? Rightfully so. How can I get them all on the same page? Like that's nearly impossible. And you're talking about millennials. You know, people give millennials like the hardest time.

But I'm like, hold on a second. Like let's really talk about this. Aren't you on some level working in hopes to evolve our species in a better way? Aren't you trying to make gains in whatever it is, whatever industry we're talking about? So in the game of soccer, my dream was to leave the game better than I found it. Well, here I find myself at the end of my career, looking at some of these young players coming in expecting more. And I'm like, yes, that's exactly what I spent my life trying to, to, to give them. And so now why is old people, why is it our,

why is it part of our culture to like be jealous? Cause essentially that's what people's that's what, that's what's really coming up for them is them being jealous of, of our, our younger generation generation having more opportunity um expecting more with maybe doing a little bit of less work but i think that that is essentially like the true definition of evolution like you know i'm not a scientist but that's that's my dream so when alex morgan came on board and she started expecting more i'm like hell yes alex morgan like you keep expecting more because that's the only way that the game grows. That's the only way we actually positively

progress in the right direction. Okay. So let's go back to needing attention from your parents. What was the dysfunction and you don't have to get too deep into the weeds, but what was the dysfunction that was happening in your family that you were not seen and understood? Yeah. I think that I was the youngest of seven children. That's it. Yeah. I mean, there was no dysfunction. It was just like, well, that was just itself is the crazy, you know, like, and not, not to be insensitive to that word, but seven kids. Crazy. It was, it was, it was really, it was really something. And, you know, as I get older, like most people do, you know, we, we all have childhood traumas that we're, we're trying to heal from for the rest of our lives. And as you get older, you get a little bit more mindful because you have your own

children and you're like, Oh man, I'm just trying to do the best that I can. And I know that I see myself messing up here. I see myself having made that mistake there. Like, why am I holding my parents to a completely different standard than I'm holding myself to? So there's an easing of some of these childhood traumas. But when you are the youngest of seven, when you are one of seven, because I'm sure all of my brothers and sisters feel this way on so many levels, there's just only so much attention that can go around. And it's the very thing that drove me to the level of success that I was able to achieve. So I can't sit here and be, you know, pouty about it all the time, because it also has brought me not just like soccer success, but like, it's also a drive for me in every area of my life, whether it's becoming an author or a speaker or, you know, a founding co-founder of a business that I've just launched.

Like it's driving me in every way of my life. And I'm just trying to make sure that I'm using it in a positive way rather than a negative. How much of a hole was that inside of you? Like early days? Was it? You know, I'm thinking about a pit. And if there's a little bit of kind of hole, it's one thing. But if it's a huge pit in your life, it feels very different. So for you, what was that like? Well, I think when I think back to my childhood, I had a I had a beautiful childhood. I had amazing experiences. But this deep desire for attention was a pretty big hole for me. my brothers and sisters started to leave for college and that hole got bigger because, um, I thought that, that this was the time now that I was going to get maybe some attention from my

parents, but like they're, they're adults, right? Like they have stuff going on. Um, and you know, my mom, she's amazing. She drove me everywhere. She was a huge reason why I was able to like excel at soccer. And my dad worked quite a bit. And so I didn't understand that stuff as a kid. So what was a hole, what probably was a big hole as a kid, it might also not have felt or looked like a hole to another kid. It's just the way that it felt to me. So I'm also – That's really cool. That's great awareness. Yeah, that's great awareness. Yeah. I'm just conscious of like my privilege too. Like I was able to play soccer and not worry about, um, where I was going to get the next soccer ball.

You know, my parents, you know, they were middle-class upper middle-class and, um, I was afforded a lot of opportunities and privilege that not many other kids had. So I also feel that it's important that though they were traumas to me, it might not necessarily be the stereotypical traumatic situation that every other person might find themselves into in their lives right now. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentus. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday, what you put in your body matters. And that's why I trust Momentus. From the moment I sat down with Jeff Byers, their co-founder and CEO, I could tell this was not your average supplement company. And I was immediately drawn Jeff Byers, their co-founder and CEO. I could tell this was not your average supplement company. And I was immediately drawn to their mission, helping people achieve performance for life.

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Again, that's Felix Gray. You spell it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com and use the code FindingMastery20 at FelixGray.com for 20% off. What would you do when you felt that feeling, like that, I'm not seen, I'm not recognized, I don't feel important. What were the thoughts that would go with that? Yeah, I think that the way that I thought about it was, okay, I'm not being seen now. It's just going to be a matter of time. I knew that I held on to this natural talent of athleticism. I was just, I was really, really, I was a great basketball player. I was a great soccer player. I knew that I had like this golden ticket

and I also used it to my advantage when it was time, when I felt like I needed a little bit more attention. So I would just go out and score a bunch of goals. I'd go out and score a bunch of points on the basketball court. And so that was like the thing that like, that was able to check off that, that longing, that feeling of need. Right. And, and I think on a deep unconscious level or subconscious,

I don't know which one. I think that that is what terrified me the most about my impending retirement is how the hell am I going to ease this anxiety that probably rises or this need for attention? How will I get that? What will I do to solve for that so I'm we're I'm doing personal work now trying to need less attention um to try to not be as big of a performer even at the freaking dinner table like our kids are talking and I feel the need that I've got to go on like and I gotta like go on this dissertation to be the person in the room like giving them a lecture on something and it's like so not my role it's my role to listen because your kids are literally talking at the table. Like no kids talk at the table, like just listen, Abby. So that's what I'm doing now. It's just working on listening, working on,

um, figuring it out, figuring out how not to need that attention. Um, but my wife is using it to her betterment. She's like, babe, I saw that you unloaded the dishwasher. That is amazing. And I'm like, my brain lights up and I'm like, yes, that's exactly what I needed. And so I'll do it the next day, you know? And then she says, you don't need to do it for the reward of it. Like, it's just nice when you, yeah. So when did you realize that you were an athlete and that your identity was rooted around execution of skill? When I was a kid, you know, being the youngest, I was just getting toted around to every athletic field you can imagine.

And all of my brothers and sisters played sports. So I watched them. I didn't know it at the time, but I was like studying them. I was studying what they were doing, how they did it. And one of the things that I maybe might be most skilled at is seeing other people fail and succeed and choosing what's going to work for me and what I'm going to not do at the same thing. Because like I said, I like to do things my way. And I think as a young athlete, you know, my first memories of being athletic was just being in the backyard. We had a swimming pool growing up.

And I had this courageousness. You know, I don't believe in the word fearless. I think that it's overused and actually is not even true. I think all people experience some level of fear. It's just some choose to go forward or not. And that's courage and I think that I was just this courageous little kid I like to take risk I like you know and it probably has a lot to do with why I probably over drank I like to have that shot of adrenaline or dopamine and and you know thinking about myself as a young athlete I was just like in full play all the time. I mean, even now as an adult, like I do work, but I try to make it fun on some level. I like challenge myself. Like, can I get this house cleaned in 35 minutes? Something like that. It's, it's ridiculous, but like I have to actually play games with myself around certain chores that I need to get done throughout the day. Um, the same thing was

happening as a kid. I was, you know, three, two, one in the basketball court out in the front yard. Um, always racing, always getting timed, doing something, you know, my brother and sisters, they used to play a game with me like Abby, can you go get my blanket upstairs and be back down here in 15 seconds? And they'd go, go. And they'd pretend to count. And I would just go off running. So I was just like prepping my whole life. It felt like to be on a team, to be in a team environment. And actually, I think that all of that was in process and in preparation for what I'm doing now, which, you know, is, is one of the passions of my life, where I'm creating teams for people who really have never been on a team consistently throughout their life

with these leadership programs. So it's pretty fun. Was that so it was really young, when you identified with being an athlete, like, I don't know, I'm thinking like 10, 11, 12 in that range. I'm thinking like four, five and six. Okay. So identity foreclosure is a concept where people, once they identify with a certain part of their life and they do at a young age and all the attention that they get revolves around that thing, that it becomes really difficult when that thing no longer is available. And so your transition was hard and your transition was hard because, um, it was the great fear for you, right? This is the ultimate fear. Who am I without what I do? And did you know that you were choosing,

you know, painkillers and alcohol? I don't know if there's other drugs involved, but as a way to numb yourself from that, or was that not that was that actually, is that me making too many assumptions there? I think I knew on a deep level that I was for sure trying to like self medicmedicate for that fear. Um, but the level just above that, like I was just always in for a good time. Um, and, uh, I didn't experience hangovers like people experience normally that usually prevents them from coming back the next day. Um, and so I think because of that and this whole concept of rebellion that I took hold and had as a, as a, also an identity. Um, I like to see how far I could push my body.

You know, I was in one realm of my life. So, so strict and so regimented and, um, and so professional. And then when I was, when I was off, um, off seasons and times that I was with my friends, I would be able to turn that volume completely down and turn the volume up so high in this other realm of my life. But yeah, I do know that I was terrified of trying to figure out who I was without soccer. How did you do it? What did you do to figure that out? Yeah. I mean, one of the, not that I recommend this, but I got a DUI in 2016 and that was it. Light turned off in that world for me. I quit drinking. I quit. I threw everything. I threw

all the pills that I had out. So you were not addicted, you were more interested in getting to the edge, pushing boundaries, you know, whether it was through structure or through risk taking, like you were more interested in that. I think that at first, I was more interested in pushing boundaries and taking it to an edge. I think, if I were to be really honest with myself, I lost control of when in which the times were I wanted to and when in which times where I couldn't stop myself. Because I always was able to stop when I had soccer. But by definition, I was just like a high-functioning alcoholic. I was really good at scheduling out these times in which I could, could go all in, in the party world of my life. So getting this, this DUI was really important, because it kind of woke me back

up to like, oh, wait, what have I been doing for the last 15 years of my life? And what will I be doing in the next 15 years of my life? And if I kept down that path, my life would be completely different. Maybe I'm not even alive. Like, like I could see the, I could see the path and that didn't look very cool to me. Um, so getting sober was in direct relation to the shame and embarrassment I felt from this DUI, which I still carry on so many levels. How do you deal with that shame? Well, talk about it. First of all, I think that secrets develop shame. And shame is really big. You know, I grew up, I was born and raised Catholic. And now I'm recovering Catholic is what I call myself. Does that mean that you're practicing Catholicism now?

No, you're recovering, recovering from it. Yeah, I got it. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. And I joke about it. But but you know, you can imagine being a young gay kid inside the Catholic Church and being like, really confused by all the messages, the mixed messages that the church is sending in and trying to instill into me as a human being. So, so, you know, I think that the way that I have been able to deal with the shame is by talking about it. Um, and the, the further I, I get away from that period of my life, the more I am seeing the most beautiful, truest version of who I can become and who I am, who I've ever been. I actually just said to my wife the other day, I said, you know, what's so cool about this sobriety thing? She said, what? And I said, I have nothing to be guilty about. And guilt is like, you know,

it's like the precursor to shame. It like if you do something wrong and like what is wrong um how do you define right and wrong like these are all like really heady philosophical debates that we could have but at the time I knew that what I was doing wasn't right and separating myself from that lifestyle um not only saved me but it's actually allowed me more access to different things that I never would have had access to before. You know, my children never seeing me in an altered state. I met my wife Glennon three years ago and I got sober like a month before I met her. I probably never would have met her. My life would be completely different. And so, yeah, you know, shame is

the thing that takes us out of the game and the way that we think about ourselves has so much to do with trends and forces has so much to do with chemicals inside of our bodies what you're putting in your body is like you become what you you you actually eat on some level and I was putting a lot of crap into my body that was not allowing myself, my emotional self, my highest self to come through. And what is, how do you define or articulate your highest self? Like when you think about that vision or the way that feels inside of you, can you put words to it? Yeah, I think that we all have value systems, things that matter to us. You know, I have my own personal value systems. I have a marriage value system and a family value system.

And in order for me to operate at highest efficiency and function as my best self, it's to be in true line with those values. Now, look, one of my values is to have a healthy body for as long as my body can live. Now, there are times when I don't work out as much as I should. There are times when I'm probably eating not as well as I probably should. So when those value systems fall down, then those things, those values, in fact, go away. If you don't spend time on your relationships, if you don't spend time on the things that you care about. So for me, living a valued life, things that matter to me, living in true form to those things,

allows me access to this beautiful and true and the best version of myself. But you have to know what that stuff is. That's right. That's exactly right. You have to know what it is. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day.

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and use the code finding mastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash finding mastery. This is an old concept that we're talking about. Benjamin Franklin had the same idea and he said, okay, listen, I'm going to write down the values that matter to me. And I think he did 50 of them. And then he won a week, he would train them, he pluck them up. And so let's call it honesty. So he trained it at a ridiculous level every day for the week. And I don't think if you just train honesty for a week, you're done, you know, like, but he would, the thought was that he wanted to train them so that they eventually become a habit, right. And as an athlete, right. Doesn't

that make sense? Okay. We front load the training. We do it in calm environments, more stressful environments, more rugged environments so that it's a habit, you know, in the, in the most hustle. Okay. So what do you have a handful that you're working on or that are snapped in place for your highest, your best? Yeah. And I think that, you know, you have to know yourself before you figure out who your highest and best self is. Okay, wait, hold on, hold on to interrupt. How do you do that? And I'm not talking about people in general. Like, how do you do that? The way that I try to find out who I am is I try to meditate. I work out. I play golf. And then one of the most important things, you know, because as an athlete, feedback is really important.

I'm so glad you brought that up. Yeah. Because that's what's not available in the business world. Like, how do you know? How do you and I know right now that this is a good conversation, that this is the best we can do. Where in athletics, it's like, you got your body giving you feedback. You've got your coach giving you feedback. You got film giving you feedback. You got your teammates giving you, you got like the outcome is giving you feedback. So, so how, like, how are you getting feedback now? Yeah. Um, first of all, you know, my wife,

uh, she's an author and a motivational speaker and just is like overall, just like the most amazing human being. So she is like my first go-to person for feedback. Like, what do you think about this? So, um, the way that we operate is, um, you know, we don't have cherished outcomes in terms of our own, you know, my personal growth is my personal growth, her personal growth is hers. We're just trying to mirror each other, right? So here's what I'm seeing. Like, I know you said this thing the other day that you're trying to work on. So for me,

one of the things that I'm trying to work on right now is listening. Because my personality is I want to, I'm a wait to talker, I want to talk, I want to get the attention. Right. And in order for me to kind of combat this part of my personality that I think is actually limiting me from connecting, truly connecting with people, it's this one way dimension where I'm not allowing information to come back to me. And so I'm blocking this true connection that I can have with people in so many ways. So, you know, my wife, she has to, at times, you know, pull me aside and say, look, I love you. You're amazing. But I just want you to know that that whole dinner conversation, you know, the kids, they don't want you to prophetize. Like

they're not asking you questions. They just want to talk. And I think that that is really important. Getting feedback from your other person, from the person in your life that you trust the most is huge. Getting feedback from your business partners, the people that are with you, that talk to you, that hear the things that come out of your mouth on a daily basis. You know, my wife says this really great thing. She talks about in order to not have deathbed regret, make sure you don't have bedtime regret. And that is like a really easy thing to conceptualize. Like, oh, yeah, if I don't want to be disappointed with the way that I live my life down the road, then I need to not be disappointed the way that I'm living my life right now. And you have to figure out, okay, who am I now? And what are the parts of who I am right now that are inhibiting me from getting to the end of the road? So when I go out on the road and I'm doing the speaking tour or whatever it is, one of the things that I tell people is like, you have to write your own commencement speech or write your own eulogy, right? And figure out and try to reverse and

engineer that, right? Because, and also put people in your life that will hold you accountable to the things that you value, right? So, you know, my wife is my value account person, the person in my life who will make sure that I'm showing up for myself every day. And of course, you know, you have to have people who aren't going to be directly related or affected by some of these, these value systems that you set in place. So mechanically, do you list, so you're meditating, you're doing difficult things physically to learn about yourself. You've got a partner that you trust and you communicate and she helps to hold a mirror up to say, Abby, you're full of shit or Abby,

you're right on the money there or whatever. Right. Okay. So do you mechanically write things down and say, these are the values that I'm working on and then have a system in place to practice them? Are you doing that? Yeah. Yeah. So when, when Glenn and I got married, we actually had a value vow. So, you know, essentially what vows are deeper, prettier versions of values. And, you know, we wrote them down and we really do try to live by them. Now, that doesn't mean we're like robots, but it does mean that it is always in constant closeness to not just our hearts, but, you know, we can see it on a daily basis if we needed to. And the other side of it, too, is there are things that I just in passing

talk about with my wife that I've never written down that I'm just like, Hey, I want to do this, you know, like random, random thoughts. I can't think of one now, but the, the one about, you know, over talking. So like my wife at times will see me literally closing my mouth with two of my fingers as like an active way for me to remember, do not open your mouth right now, whether you want to or not, you know? And that's just it. Like, that's what life is. Like, it's about creating a value system for yourself. And, you know, going through them one by one, every day, every single day, because here's the thing. People say they value things, but then they never work on them. So then my

question to you is, do you actually value them? Do you really value, do you really value your body, even though you've not gone and worked out in one whole year? Do you really value your relationship with your children, even though you spent every single weeknight at work, do you really value your, your marriage? Even though you haven't been physically intimate with your partner in over two years, you know, and I know that there's so many complexities as to why all those things break down. But the reality is, is if you don't focus any attention on your values, they will eventually go away.

So you really are, um, working, you know, this isn't like, Hey, I'm really athletic and I'm not really sure how I did it. Um, maybe you should talk to my wife because she's, she's really the, the, you know, the person that switched on and I'm just kind of lucky to be around her. You're really working. Yeah. Well, that also is true. I'm very lucky to be around my wife because she is switched on. You can tell for sure. Okay. All right. So why did you commit so fiercely to like being an alpha? Like what is it? I understand that the, the anxiety for not being seen, but there's lots of ways to work with that. You know, you can become the partier, you could become the angel, you could become the wallflower, you could do lots of things, but why,

why the fierceness of the alpha competitor? And it's not lost on me that your book and the wolf pack, like that, that is an alpha competitor or I'm sorry, an alpha predator, you know? So like why that tone for you? I think that the word alpha is an interesting one. I had never really thought of myself as an alpha. Really? Yeah. I mean, the truth is, is I feel like on the field as a, as a, as a competitor, bunch of people around you that are going to support you in this. I wanted my whole experience to be full rounded. I didn't want to be the one. I wanted people, I wanted my teammates,

I wanted my family, I wanted the fans to see that I was an integral part and a component of this team. And my role at times was to be the goal scorer. My role at times was, this is what needs to happen. And I was like, all right, let's go. Like, I'm willing, I'm able, I can take this on, no problem. But I also knew deeply that I needed the people around me in order to have that moment really truly happen. And I just, I mean, ever since I was a young kid, like when a goal needed to get scored, I was just able to like muster it. I was able to like, in some really cosmic weird way, will the ball to come to me. Like imagery. I did a lot of imagery growing up thinking about a goal being scored thinking about the ball hit in the back of the net thinking about it and I think that

there is so much more to that idea and I'm sure there will be way more science in the next 25 years around this idea of believing something to be able to happen, you know, because the reality is in every sporting event, the reason why we love watching it is because it's unpredictable. We don't know what's going to happen. That's why it's so exciting. And the truth behind any touchdown, any basket, any goal that gets scored is that that's a personal revolution because this thing that you just created has never happened before. You know, I want to just pause that because

I think that that's one of the reasons athletes can do really well in life is because they have to, they're forced to embrace the unfolding, unpredictable, unknown. And for those who have a hard time with it, it's called anxiety. And because we want to control what's about to happen, but we can't. So to trust oneself, to let go requires incredible work, both from a ridiculous internal standpoint, like I'm going to be okay no matter what happens here. That's hard to get to. And then have the ridiculous skill outside of it so that when the opportunity arises, you can execute in the way that you want to, you know, capture that opportunity.

And then, so that's one of the reasons probably that athletes do well, so well in the business world. And there are costs, you know, to the athletic mindset in business sometimes, you know, to your point, you are more of a pack animal, but I think you are the leader of the pack. You are the alpha in the pack is what it looked like and felt like. But, but let's not be confused with the lone wolf. The lone wolf is the wolf that it tends to be female, I think maybe exclusively as female, but kicked out of the tribe because they didn't work. They didn't work well with others. And that, so you, you purposely talk about the wolf pack, not the alpha, you know, the lone wolf. That's not who you are and that's not what you want to create for other

people. Okay. So, okay. Imagery. How often would you do it? Could you feel it? Could you see it? Could you smell it? How many of your senses could you get switched on when you would close your eyes? So I actually started doing imagery with our, my high school coach. She would make us lay down on the ground and, um, and get into, you know, just kind of shavasana though yoga wasn't popular back then. And, um, I just remember feeling like, oh, this is cool. Like I can play this game in my mind right now. Like I can actually have any outcome happen that I want.

I can see it from different perspectives and I can feel it and I can hear it and all of that. Were you skilled at it? Yeah. I mean, yes. Because ironically, it became part of my pregame ritual before women's national team games. Every single national anthem that was played, I would do this thing. And halfway through the anthem, I would put my head down and imagine goals being scored in every way, feet, head. And it helped. I mean, I scored a bunch of goals, right?

But I think that the belief that there's a possibility, as a forward, it's so important, as an attacking forward on a soccer team, believing that the ball is going to get there is half of the actual play because you have to get your body in motion before the ball gets sent in. Your body has to be already moving. So you have to predict where the ball is going to possibly go. It hasn't even come off their foot yet. So the imagery, the creativity, all of this stuff is happening instantly. And I think that the more an attacking player can get used to it and also the whole object, it not working out. Also making sure that you know like, oh, okay, like that play didn't work out. I'm going to survive. Like the concept behind people who don't train the muscle. It's a muscle. It's like, it's like, if you haven't trained it, I mean,

listen, I have had to retrain myself in the business world of like going out and trying something completely new and recreating and kind of being a revolutionary in my own life about what's possible. And, and, and though I'm not running to get on the end of a ball to like do a diving header, I'm still running and trying to get to a different place, trying to achieve a different level of success or trying to achieve something in any way. I think that you're reminding us of how important it is. And when you say it, it's so different than when I say it. And I'll tell you, like tip of the air performers across multiple domains from soccer to business to, you know, extreme, whatever imagery is part of the arrow performers across multiple domains from soccer to business to, you know, extreme, whatever imagery is part of the game. Why are the rest of the folks that are not tip

of the arrow fighting it? Why are they saying, yeah, yeah, yeah, I do it too, but they really don't. It's like doing it the night before a big speech, quote unquote, big, you know, like that's not it. It's there's something else that sits right underneath of the drive to want to feel it, to want to see it, to want to play it from different perspectives. And obviously you had that, that was part of your DNA. And obviously it's stemmed from not being seen. So you're, we're committed, right? Like highly committed. And then, okay. All that being said, I'm not like, I love what you have done with your life and the clarity you have about who you are. I think it's extraordinary. And I haven't yet felt like, I haven't felt where you struggle. I felt I've, you've said where you have have struggled but I haven't felt where you struggle now because

maybe it's the media mind that's on right now for you but like because you've said the words like I'm still trying to figure it out but then how does that struggle happen for you now and I wonder if you could take us there yeah so I'll just I mean I've got a bunch of struggles that I'm working on right now. First of all, one of the biggest struggles that I have been trying to understand output, your caloric output and expenditure is on a daily basis. And as an athlete, as a pro athlete, I was expending sometimes 6,000 calories a day, which means I would, in order to not lose any weight, I would have to intake 6,000 calories a day. Now, from the bigger perspective, you might think, oh, that's so lucky, right? Like, that's amazing. Well, there were some times I was like, so sick of eating, like, oh, I don't want to eat another thing. But it develops this belief system that I can eat whatever I want. And now you take away the game, you take away all of

those calories that I'm expelling every single day. And then you, you have to refit, reframe, like what food is for, because it's not for the fueling of this body as a pro athlete, it's the fueling of this body as a human being, as a person. So that's been one of the biggest struggles that I've had over the course of my retirement. And then this whole concept of what is training my body for now. Okay. Finding Mastery is brought to you by iRestore. When it comes to my health, I try to approach things with a proactive mindset. It's not about avoiding poor health. This is about creating the conditions for growth. Now, hair health is one of those areas that often gets overlooked until your hair starts

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quality sleep is just too important to leave to chance. Yeah. So the nutrition part, the movement part is getting resorted because it's not for that one aim. Yes. So getting, yeah. Okay. So getting into like longevity and those conversation is a new conversation, relatively new conversation for you. Yes. And I think that it's, it's playing very well with this, this different belief system, this immortality that I think I felt as a pro athlete. Um, you know, I really believe on a weird deep level that I can do anything. And when your body starts to turn, and you hit the period where, you know, you're not, you're not, you're not losing as many calories as you did on a daily basis. And you have to actually watch what you eat, in order to maintain

a body type that feels good and happy to you. Um, it's really confusing. And also it's really confusing to be a woman in this world right now. Um, a lot of women have terrible conversations with themselves about their bodies. Um, because the way that the media portrays what an average person and an average woman's body should look like is so vastly different than what the average body actually looks like. So we're, we're on this, like this, this rat, this rat wheel that there, there seems to be no peace. Um, there seems to be no understanding. And then I think in the bigger question that you asked, like, what am I struggling with? Um with um you know I have an existentialism that like what the hell are we all here for that's that's like the thing that I'm on a constant daily struggle with um what am I here for like what is this life like it's pretty bizarre that like us human beings

are all down here doing this weird stuff like We're doing this weird work down here, but what is it really for? So yeah, long answer to a tough question. You bring up the gender challenge right now. You've been really strong with this idea about being a feminist. Can we have that conversation? Totally. Yeah. So feminism as a loaded word, meaning really it's about the advocacy for women. And it doesn't mean at the cost of men, it just means having a specific interest for social change for women. And I'm not so sure that I'm not a feminist. Like I, I, I, I struggle with that because I am interested in people being able to flourish, but my mission is not to specifically help one race, one gender. And it's easy to say,

cause I'm a white man. So like it's, I'll tell you it from a white man perspective, there's no small violence here. Okay. I understand the privilege that I've been afforded is that it's like reframing, to use your word, the conversations that are changing and the assumptions that have been made and understanding what it's like to be others in professional worlds is something that is lacking. Yeah, I think a couple of things. First of all, I want to just talk about the word feminist.

You know, there's a huge stigma that gets attached to it because so many people believe and I get it. So many people believe that, oh, you have to burn your bra and your man hating to be a feminist. But the real definition of feminism is somebody who just believes in equality for all people. And it looks like, oh, the feminist movement is only fighting for women's rights. But the reality is the opposite of patriarchy

in my mind is not matriarchy. Like, I don't want women to take over the world. That's not my goal here. I want women to have equal space, equal opportunity. And for all the guys that are listening to this podcast, don't turn off now. This is when it's going to get really interesting. I promise. I think that we have to understand that before we start delving into the gender discrimination that has happened. I think that there needs to be a real understanding and an honest conversation that needs to be had

about how we've all come to understand the world that we live in. I don't fault people for having belief systems about the way the world runs and operates because everybody has their own perspective, their own childhood, their own family dynamics, their own upbringing, their own young adulthood, their own adulthood. And that perspective shapes everything that we think we know and the things that we think we believe, right?

My only request is for people to figure out what it is they believe and figure out truly how they believed it. And then when they can do that, then they can figure out if that belief system is actually serving them still in their current life and in the lives that we're living in right now. Trends and forces, it's a big deal. So the way that our government, the way that our administration, like it doesn't matter what political belief you have in my mind. It just matters. Are you in line and are the things that you're living and the values that you're living in your life in line with how you want? Because so many people don't believe themselves to be sexist. They're like, no, I'm not sexist. Like I've got a wife and I've got a daughter and, you know, like I'm not sexist. But like if you actually really looked at yourself, because guess what? I have sexism inside of me. Like, and I don't even know that I'm doing it sometimes. Like I texted my agent the other day. We were talking about this professor and I was like, oh, what's his name? And he was like, actually, it's a woman, you jerk. And I was like, wow, I'm a person out in the world trying to teach this shit.

And here I am also subject to the life that I was brought up with. And so I'm always trying to reframe, like I talk about, and always trying to figure out, is this my belief system or is this something that was embedded in me, something that was taught in me something that was taught in me as a really young kid it it goes along the same lines as racism right and i think that it's a

really scary time for folks like you white men who um don't find themselves in some of this um what what people would call rhetoric like oh sexism and racism, some of these, these, these things that are scary. But the truth is, is like, we got to do the work ourselves to figure out where we fall in the concepts of what racism and sexism really does mean. Because it's not, it's, you know, for lack of a better term, it's not really black or white, like, the truth is going to lie somewhere in the middle in terms of how you were raised, where you were raised. What if you were raised with with some sort of spiritual background or religious background, you know, and then what you ended up doing with your life and the way that you look at at the world, like the way that we try to raise our children, we have to continually

check ourselves that we're not saying anything that's putting mindsets into our daughters and our son about what it means to be a girl and what it means to be a boy. I think we're breaking free from some of these like very constrained definitions of gender. And so my job is to try to even the playing field as much as it possibly can. Love it. Super clear. And obviously this is where a big part of your passion is. Yeah. I mean, listen, when I, when I left the game, you know, I, I thought highly of myself. I was like, wow, I've done well. I've won some medals. You know, I'm, I'm leading the world in goals for men and women. Like, for instance, I've scored more goals than Cristiano and Messi in international football.

That's kind of cool. And when I walked away from this game, I just had this, like, overwhelming sense. You know, Kobe and myself, all three of us were getting the same award on the SB stage. We were all three of us were getting this icon award. And I was like, wow, this is pretty amazing. I'm feeling myself, you know? And then all three of us turned to walk off stage. And it was like, I got punched in the face of the reality of how different all three of us were walking and how different our retirements would be.

And this is not to say that I wish I had Kobe or Peyton's money. Like they earned their money. Like they earned every single cent that they got, that they now need to worry about investing. Whereas now, you know, and, and as a national team player, like as a woman who I got more than Mia did and, and Mia got more than her predecessor. Like there's, there's, there needs to be growth and Alex is getting more than me. Like I know this and the world is moving in the right direction for women's sports and women's soccer. But I have to be real about that night, like laying in that hotel bed, like thinking, why didn't I do more? So I was just like, all right, well, I'm going to dedicate the rest of my life to making sure that Alex Morgan and Megan Rapinoe, that they retire in a different

way than I did, that they're not going to necessarily have to worry about how they're going to pay their mortgage when they retire as one of the best in the world. The strength of the pack. Yeah. Good. What do you hope that people listening that like the next generation will embrace from this, from our conversation, from your life, you know,

what do you hope they get right? I think one of the things that's super important to me is for people to understand that in order to, to be great, you have to do great things. And it's not going to just happen. And some luck, some trends and forces of the world that made women's sports kind of women's sports at this moment in history. And right now, my voice in the world with women, women empowerment and equal rights like that, into becoming great and you yourself are only a small part of that. Um, but you have to do it in your own way. Like do not copycat myself or somebody else because then you're just going to

be doing a lesser version of something now that needs to be done, right forward to be, to, to do something great means you have to actually outdo somebody else or something else. And to do that means you have to take risks to do that. It has to have the timing and the effect of timing. Um, and to, to do that, it has to be done in your own special unique way, because there's only one of you out there. And the one of you is the only person that has your exact life experience that will be able to interpret the world that you interpreted in to be able to create what you want to create

to put out in the world to make it better. Gosh, Abby, I mean, it's like, I love what you're saying. And I really hope that the momentum that you're carrying from your athletic career does exactly what you're saying. And I, I really hope that, um, the momentum that you're carrying from your athletic career does exactly what you just said. And so I'm stoked to know you through this conversation. I feel like there are 15 different layers to go through with you and we're able to get to, you know, one, two, three of them. And so you got some depth in you. I love it. How do you define mastery? Like what is your working definition of mastery? Well, on the women's national team for so many years, it was just this relentless pursuit of excellence. the same kind of measurable defining moments of success like I used to. Consistency has become a

part of that pursuit of excellence for myself. And that is the thing that I kind of, that is the way that I need to continually define mastery. That is the way that I need to, it forces me to get up in the morning. It's like, all right, I got to be consistent. So I got to do this day, right? I got to do it well so that I don't have that deathbed regret. I got to make sure that I don't have bedtime regret. And also mastery is not for everyone. I mean, you can have it. Everybody has access to it, but not everybody completes it because it's hard. A lot of people ask me like, well, you have, you have such a good life. And I'm like, yeah, I do, but I've worked really freaking hard to get it. And it's a consistency in which I've worked

hard to be able to establish it and maintain it. Love it. Where can people find you? Obviously get the book. Yeah. Abby Wambach.com. All of my handles are Abby Wambach. You know, and listen, if you don't like what I have to say, awesome. Go find somebody who has something to say that you do like. Seriously. I thought you're going to say, go find, go, go something else yourself. I just think that like, there's too many, there's one of the things that technology brings us right now is access. And unfortunately that can get overwhelming. You can have too much access and you can be stuck on your phone. But if you have, we have this technology right now, find the people like, like yourself. I mean, you're trying to do good work in the world, find people out there that fall in line with your values that in your beliefs and like what you want the world to

look like and go about creating it. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. So the intensity and clarity you have about life approach and the credibility you have is extraordinary. So congrats on everything. And then at any given point in time, you want to play in the space that coach Carol and I built this business, the Compete to Create business. We'd love to include your mission and we see not only at the board level, but high levels of positions in the corporate spaces. You know, the highest levels of positions of, you know, at the at the table where decisions are made with those those tables need to be more equal, both gender and race. Amen. Thank you so much. You're amazing. Keep killing it, man. My pleasure. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

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