Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Inside the Mind of Sport's Greatest Teaching Guru | Tom House

Episode Date: July 13, 2022

This week’s conversation is with Dr. Tom House, a former Major League Baseball pitcher turned world-renowned expert in the biomechanics of throwing. Often referred to as the “father of modern pitching mechanics” and a “quarterback whisperer”, Tom has coached some of the world’s most elite throwers like Tom Brady, Drew Brees, Nolan Ryan, Andrew Luck, Dak Prescott… and the list goes on. Tom is one of the preeminent pioneers who brought science into the art of coaching – after eight years as a big league pitcher and eight more as a big league pitching coach, he earned a doctorate in sports psychology, and has gone on to write or co-write 22 books on throwing mechanics. Now, Tom is on a mission to pay it forward to the next generation – his new revolutionary app, Mustard, makes world-class coaching and tactics used by professional athletes accessible to athletes of all ages right from their smartphone. I can’t wait for you to learn from Tom – not as an elite throwing coach, but as a pioneer, a risk-taker, a visionary, and a master of craft who’s deep commitment, curiosity, and expertise has left a lasting mark in the world of sport - and subsequently the world of human expression and potential._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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on what doesn't work. Okay, welcome back or welcome to the finding mastery podcast i'm dr michael gervais and by trade and training i'm a sport and high performance psychologist and the whole idea behind these conversations behind this podcast is to pull back the curtain on the extraordinaries, to understand how they use their mind to explore the edges and the reaches of the human experience in business and sport and science and life. We want to understand how they have committed to mastering both their craft and their minds in an effort to explore their potential. Finding Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Solutions. In any high-performing environment that I've been part of, from elite teams to executive boardrooms, one thing holds true. Meaningful relationships are at the center of sustained success. And building those relationships,

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And I love that David is making that easier. So if you're trying to hit your daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value, and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash finding mastery. Now, this week's conversation is with Dr. Tom House, a former major league baseball pitcher turned world-renowned expert in the biomechanics of throwing.

So he's often referred to as the father of modern pitching mechanics. And he's a quarterback whisperer. Tom has coached some of the world's most elite throwers like Tom Brady, Drew Brees, Nolan Ryan, Andrew Luck, Dak Prescott, and the list goes on. He is one of the preeminent pioneers who brought science into the art of coaching. So after eight years as a big league pitcher and eight more years as a big league pitching coach, he earned a doctorate in sports psychology and he's gone on to write and co-write 22 books on throwing mechanics. So this conversation is not about throwing mechanics this is about learning

this is about teaching and now tom is on a mission to pay it forward to the next generation his new revolutionary app mustard makes world-class coaching and tactics used by professional athletes accessible to athletes of all ages, right from their smartphones. I can't wait for you to learn from Tom, not as an elite run coach, like I said, but as a pioneer, as a risk taker, a visionary, a master of craft for sure, whose deep commitment and curiosity mixed with expertise has left a lasting mark in the world of sport and subsequently the world of human expression and potential. And with that, let's jump right into this week's conversation with Dr. Tom House.

Tom, how are you? Real good, Mike. I can't complain about where I am right now. You mean that because the way that you've experienced your life has led you to being content? I can't say that I'm content because there's always that itch to try to try, you know, do something different or what would happen if, but for the most of my professional career,

both as a player and a coach, I've been ridden hard and put away wet a lot because we were just different. I think my whole life on and off the field, being left handed and a little bit of a flake, I have looked at things different. And there's a price to pay when you do that. What do they call it? The confirmation bias. People only like to hear and listen to things they already believe in. Well, I've never been the delivery boy for that kind of stuff. And the reason that I'm kind of happy with where I am right now, as I look out at the people that I've gotten to pal around with, gotten close to the last their craft, but the industry of the way that you work about helping athletes become their very best. So I would love to go back and get a little bit of the origin story because I know you

from reputation and that reputation is like one, your go-to to get people's arms right. But there's something far greater than that that takes place in the relationship. And people talk about that. They say that it's not just my arm whip. There's something else that happens with Tom. And so, I mean mean working backwards you you have an unapologetic you are unafraid you are grounded you speak truth to power you are looking forward relentlessly in your life to build something to do something special and I feel it in the the warmth that you have, even in the tenor of your voice. So I would like to go back to the origin story and just get a little bit about how you've

carved this unique path of yours. Well, you're setting me up pretty good here. I think it has to go back to family values. I grew up with, you know, an ex-GI who went to school on the GI Bill that was living the dream after World War II. And myself and my brother were brought up. My dad didn't know a whole lot about sports and my mom didn't care about sports. She only cared about grades. She knew that grades would allow you to get to college. And my brother and I were going to go to college no matter what. So I would come home after I'd say, I'd walk in the door at five o'clock and I said, hey, dad, I threw a no header today.

And my dad would say, that's great. How did you do that? I said, dad, I threw a no header today. And so I walked from him to my mom. I say, hey, mom, I threw a no-hitter today. And she said, that's really good. Did you get an A in English? So for both my brother and myself, it was really cool that we were good at sports, but that wasn't the priority. The priority is how did it happen and why were you good? So in a house, it was a tough dinner table. How and why were the priority, not the outcome? And the good and the bad of that is I've never looked at things the way a typical jock would look at things. It was nice to have results, but it meant more to understand why the results happened. You, like many people that are committed to deep exploration,

are far more committed to the process of becoming, of growing, of figuring it out than the outcome. Is that a fair? You said it way better than I did. But remember, I didn't know what, we did not know in the early 60s that we were doing what you just described. We just knew that it was a little different in our house. That's the buildings of the origin story. It's like a solid family environment, more interested in all things other than sport.

Like, you know, I'm not sure that dad was not interested, but it kind of sounded like that. But mom was definitely more interested in. All right, that's very perceptive. They were interested. My dad was a snack shack king, you know, he'd come to games, but wouldn't sit there and yell and scream, he'd be in the snack shack, helping out selling hot dogs and snow cones. So they were always very supportive. And why sports were a large part of our life. It wasn't the only part of our life. I hope that makes sense. Definitely. Did you play multiple sports yourself?

We did. And without knowing, I mean, obviously, I know now that playing multiple sports is way better in the long term for someone that's specializing. But it's just what kids did in those days. You know, during baseball season, you played baseball. During summer or during the winter, you know, surfing, snowboarding, skateboarding stuff, the things that my kids ended up grav the alternative sports, how has that shaped you in being a pioneer? Well, we talked earlier that you're 50 years old and you're in the perfect crease between my age group and the kids that are coming behind you. It's a way different sports world now than it was when I was breaking in. We did not have data. We did not have analytics.

We didn't have any of this stuff. And I can remember good games or bad games, winning seasons or bad seasons. There were a lot of times when I said to myself, is this really true what they're telling me? I mean, I can't see how this fits in the outcome. And I was always encouraged by my parents to ask questions. And I asked a lot of questions to a point where I was probably a little bit of a pain in the butt to both teachers and coaches from day one, and it wasn't that I was malicious. If I didn't understand it, I was always raising my hand, and that had some good and some bad attached to it. A lot of times I got answers, which was awesome.

And then sometimes I couldn't get answers, and that was frustrating. And my generation was a yes-or-no-sir generation. If a coach told you to do something, you did it. There's no question at all. And I think the, both the blessing and the frustration of asking too many questions kind of. I didn't want to have that weird feeling in my stomach when I was teaching someone how to do a particular activity. I didn't want to wonder or have concern saying, well, I hope this is right. I want to know. So I took that little grain of dissonance, I think would be the right word, and tried to turn it into something positive. Where if I didn't know, I would search until I did find.

And that kind of led me to where we are right now, where I would go and look until I found. Okay, so that's back then. I love this, because you're a scientist in so many respects. How does that work? How does that work? Well, how does that work? And I want to understand that. So if I'm teaching it, I'm teaching on some core pillars that I can rely on. What are the important questions that you're contemplating now? Well, are we on the right path with what, why, and how are we doing it? You know, this is turbulent times that we're living in right now. And I think sports, in my opinion, are one of the few things left where everybody can

kind of collaborate, even when their views on the world or things are completely different. And the power of play and the lessons that sports teach, no matter what your political religion, whatever your beliefs might be, there's a common denominator there. And so I'm blessed to have sports as the vehicle to deliver what I feel will actually help youngsters. And this was the reason that we got into Mustard. I don't know if you know about this app that we have. Yeah, please. The research has shown that if we can get a 14-year-old male or female to stay with sports, whatever it might be, through high school,

that they are better socially, they're better health-wise, they're better with self-worth. The power of sports are undeniable. And as it turned out, this app we call Mustard takes virtually everything we give our elite athletes and that they pay a premium price for. child in the backyard and have the same efficacy of the teach biomechanically, functional strength wise, nutrition and sleep, and mental and emotional. So again, I'm old school and am aware that for the most part, we are dinosaurs. But because of my mom and dad and this hunger for why and how and what can we do I kind of stayed current with the analytics so I had this kind of kind of a bridge

where old age and treachery have a value to the answers I'll take that a step further. Experience, knowledge, and wisdom happen to everybody eventually. And what I represent is someone from the dinosaur age with being able to put those pillars or whatever they are of knowledge from the dinosaur age and match them up to what's going on today. So there there's, there's value to that. When you, from the dinosaur perspective, like you say that,

but I mean, your wisdom is ridiculous. If you could speak right to the heart, right to the center of parents. So from your perspective and your lived experiences with the best and a whole range of people that you've supported in your unbelievable professional career, what insight would you want them to know? You know, insight, hindsight, foresight, all of those things require a little bit of self-evaluation.

And when you're evaluating, when you're brushing your teeth at night and you're looking at yourself in the mirror, if there's anything that kind of causes you to take a second look, that's probably what you need to work on the hardest tomorrow. And I kind of got that from my mom. Live your day to its fullest. Be the best you can be every day. But look back when you go into bed at night and ask yourself, is there anything I could have done better or anything I should do different? Then you itemize, prioritize, and actualize it tomorrow. So that's another thing that I got from my family. My dad was a civil engineer from the University of Washington, extremely smart, extremely organized, checked every box, probably animal retentive to the max.

But because it was structured and it was delivered, you know, with love from both of them, my mom was an Iowa farm girl. So think about that mix and match at the dinner table. It was a very eclectic upbringing. And the carryover was even now when I sit down and talk to someone or try to help them when they've come to me to get better at something, I probably draw as much on things I've learned from other people more than things I've learned for myself. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentous. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday, what you put in your body matters.

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Again, that's Felix Gray. You spell it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com and use the code findingmastery20 at felixgray.com for 20% off. When I, in preparation for this conversation, I called a bunch of folks that know you and they're all legends. They're all legends. And they couldn't stop glowing about you. They couldn't stop, you know, talking about, get them to talk about, you know, the time that Tom Brady showed up at, you know, practice. When he was working with Brady at USC or Kenny Rogers or like just, and the list goes on and on about legends, Nolan Ryan and all the folks that you've worked with. And I said, yeah, yeah, yeah, well, we can do that. But I want to understand how he keeps learning because you were entrenched in a way when you were 20, let's say, But now it's coming clear to me is that you're a learner.

That's what your thing was, that you are soaking up the wisdom of that time from the elders. You are curious about how things worked. And now you've got an app. Now you worked somewhere from VHS to biomechanics to data management, all to sort out your intuition and get better as a communicator. It feels like to me. This other bridge is the warmth that you carry, that you come from, and the nature of working with the best in the world and wanting the best from you. That is rare. So that bridge from this compassion, warmth, soft, delicate appreciation of the human experience

that's coming through in this conversation, that somehow you crosswalk that to the intensity required by some of the most intense alpha competitive humans on the planet and i want to understand that as well right i'll try my best to either support or tell you where the backup to what we're talking about came from but but number one priority for me, it's gotta be fun. We're not going to do it. And when an athlete or a person walks into my life, it's about that person or that athlete first, everything else second. And the support for that is called authenticity.

There's a lot of people out there that are brilliant at what they do. A lot of people that take care of themselves first and everybody else second. A lot of people that are altruistic and go the other way. And I don't care what that person is, as long as they're authentic. And then to explain, it's called long-term adaptive learning. What you described earlier is we learn to learn, we learn, and we learn to relearn. And what happens to most people when they learn how to learn and they learn X, whatever amount of learn that is.

They put a ceiling on it. I think what my brother and I and people that I surround myself with do is we continue to learn because we're not afraid to relearn. We're not so set in concrete that we only will allow our thought processes to be the centerpiece of any conversation. So when you talked about insight, but when we first came on this call right here, I always play this little game for myself. If I was you looking at me, what would make this something positive between the two of us? And do I represent anything or do I do anything that would jeopardize an interaction to where at the end of our conversation today, we both didn't walk away feeling better for the experience. So can you kind of see the pressure that if I have any pressure on myself, is I want to make sure that any interaction, both of us walk away or however many are involved with

us, leave the scene better for the experience. And I think over the course of the last, well, you know, almost 50 years, I think we've done a pretty good job of that. I've been booed off the stage. I didn't hear my last name in Boston for a couple of years because I had given up a home run to a guy named Chris Shanless in a playoff game with the Yankees. I mean, it hasn't been all peaches and cream. There's been times when I've questioned the validity of what I was doing. But in the long haul, I stuck to the guns. And basically, again, I'll go to my mom, tell the truth, do the right thing when nobody's looking, and would it make me proud? That was her message to us. If it's not going to make your mother proud, it shouldn't be done. And those are rules that anybody can adhere to. And it seems like the further I've gotten along

here, I mean, I just turned 75. I've got Parkinson's. I don't know if you're aware of that. I was told 10 years ago that I'd probably be in a wheelchair and not very productive at my age right now. I've slowed down, but I don't think the quality of what we're doing has been jeopardized at all. So everything has its challenges. And the way you approach those challenges, you have this template that you live by. And what you and I are talking about right now, I'm pretty sure I've been authentic with my whole life. And it's kind of you to say that when I deal with people, I make them feel good. I've walked into rooms where they don't really even know me, but they don't like anything about me because of what I might represent. Small man, big mouth, cocky, too confident.

Where does it come from? How can he be doing this when he was marginal to Horshtead as a player, but according to Don Zimmer, predictably marginal towards uh in other words that's a true story we're we're going through a clubhouse meeting where he's going around and seeing carl at this do this and really can't hear that and when he when he came to me he said tommy house you're marginal in the horseshit but you're that. And when he came to me, he said, Tommy House, you're marginal in the horse shit, but you're predictably marginal in the horse shit. And he went on, and I'm sitting next to Colin Fisk, and I said, Pudge, what did he just say?

He said, just shut up. Don't even think about it. So, in other words, it's been a fun run, but it hasn't all been peaches and cream. There's times that you have doubt, times you get your butt kicked. And one of our tenants with the people I hang on to, life is about failing as much as it is about succeeding. And we encourage people to fail fast forward. The guys that move ahead, the gals that move ahead are the ones that are willing to fail and learn from their failures to move forward. We live in an outcome world right now, and parents don't like to see their kids fail.

And my mom used to say, if it doesn't kill you, it's been a good experience. And you can talk about experience, but the individual you're talking to has to experience it to turn it into knowledge and wisdom. as kids, like with my brother and myself, our long-term adaptive learning enabled us not to be judged by our outcome, but by our process. And that failing wasn't an issue. She would not allow lying, cheating, and stealing. I mean, you couldn't do stupid stuff like that. But if you screwed something up and you knew why you screwed it up then you move

on and go from there so let's work in reverse order and then eventually land back to parkinson's in reverse order you've got character values that mom and dad have been instrumental in hydrating for you like these character values good choice words yes they were spent on that from day one so that your your cellular structure your your DNA of your character feels hydrated with um Virtue so you're it feels like you're working from the first principles of of virtues and and values that matter that's really close i appreciate you putting the virtue word to it but it's as simple as this i never looked at failure the way other people did it wasn't life and death it was like well i know that doesn't work so we'll avoid that next time through and

that caused me issues also because people thought early on that I took failing or losing too lightly. And I would feel bad just like everybody did, but I didn't dwell on it. And the research shows today that if you dwell on failure, you never get to get moving forward to get out of the failure mode.

So what happened 20 minutes ago doesn't really have anything to do with what's going on right now and putting that into something you could do on a day-to-day basis is I think what we're doing not only with Mustard, but with anybody that deals with either the National Pitching Association or 3DQB or any of the organizations we work together with. Okay, so I think I'd love to discern if on this failure bit, fail fast, fail forward, fail often. I hear it in business. I hear it in sport a lot and then it's not clear to me if the right question is about how to do that or if the right

question is about how to value the experience of failure because if you value failure and you're and it's not like something you're afraid to experience i think the natural downstream outcome is that it's like water over the rocks it just happens and you just and you do you said it better than i did it's it's valuing failure understanding that you literally you will learn anybody. Anybody can go good, Michael. Anybody can go good. If the individual that's on a bad run or screws something up, can you learn from it and move on? And the value proposition of learning from your failures is that it builds character.

You learn how to deal with adversity. I also think it enables you to have empathy. Things in today's world with the internet, the way it is empathy is something that's going away. The kind of tell you another quick story real quick. So that home run that I gave up to Chris Chandler's in Yankee Stadium, that pretty much cost me my career in Boston. Game's over. I'm sitting on the bench. The ground crew's

finishing up. The stadium crew's finishing up. I do not want to go in the clubhouse because I know that there's riders waiting there. I probably cost every one of my teammates, I think, playoff money at that time was like 11 grand. I'm going, ugh, this is just not something I want to do. And Carl Jastrzemski walks out, has a couple of tall, cool ones, sits down next to me on the bench and says, was it the right pitch? I said, yeah. He said, was it the right pitch? I said, yeah. He said, was it the wrong location?

I said, yeah. And he said, screw it. It's only chips. It's not like losing friends. You got 24 guys in there that know exactly what you're going through. Come on, let's go. Now, if it hadn't been anybody but Carlos Shemstead, I probably would have blown it up but here's

the captain of the red sox hall of fame superstar telling me you got 24 guys in there that know exactly what you're going through now where in today's world can you find something like that that would explain the concept of empathy? Do you have kids? I do. I have one, a 14-year-old. Well, and I'll tell you what, a 14-year-old male or female, the gals are much better at empathy than the guys are. But the bottom line is,

where have you read anything about empathy in the last six months? Anywhere. Every day in in sport you deal with it you got buddies on the team that are going good you feel good for them got buddies on the team that are going bad you feel bad for them so you see how lucky I got having sports as the centerpiece of all my knowledge. You know, I've filtered everything through sports. I was a, if I could have been a professional student, I probably would have been independently wealthy. School was always interesting to me.

And because it was interesting, I didn't mind continuing to get degrees. But having education and using it properly are two different things. So you see the perfect storm that I got involved with. My mom made it okay. It made it cool to go to school. My dad made it, you know, almost a mandate, better understand why, the engineering. And then the fact that the game itself, the games we played, taught perseverance, persistence, whatever you want to use, told us how to deal with adversity, and then the empathy thing. So that's why I'm so excited about still being involved with sports

as our delivery mechanism for the message that we're trying to get out to as many people as we can. And, you know, there's sport is for me, it's a working laboratory. It's a way to learn more about who I am, who we are and who we are together. And it's a place to figure out who I'm working on becoming as well. And so and it's not I say it like it's about my experience it's about the we more than the me and at the center of this whole thing for me at least one of the first principles that I work from is

that through relationships we become and it's the relationship first with ourself it's the relationship with others mother nature winning losing experience itself you know and all of that provides the the material to reveal you know that you're exactly right it's a big Venn where all these things that intersect in your life tells you where you are. And if you're not becoming, you're a has-been. That's something that people don't realize. It's okay to have been really good at something. But if you've locked on to what you used to be, you're a has-been.

If you're not becoming, if you're not waking up every morning and saying somehow, some way, I'm going to go with this. I'm going to get something new and add it to my equation. If you're not becoming, you might as well throw in the towel. Okay, so when you wake, let's go back to process.

So the process of failure for you is more about valuing the experience of gathering information that isn't what you planned on, isn't what you hoped for. And there's some sort of, you know, if it is failure, there's some sort of pain around it. But you're saying value that because it's a great teacher. Yeah.

And then what you just said is perfect. Can you say that exact same words again? Do you remember what you just said is perfect. Can you say that exact same words again? Do you remember what you just said? Let me try. Is that I said you're teaching to help people value that the experience that comes from something that you didn't intend to happen? It's not exactly what you wanted and there's a little bit of pain involved in it You're saying value that because it is a great teacher. Yes embrace it. We'll talk about it from a Parkinson's thing You know when I was first being diagnosed nobody could tell what was wrong me

I thought I had a brain tumor there were things that were really really easy in the past that I couldn't do anymore then you get the diagnosis of Parkinson's and I can remember thinking to myself, my life is over. You know, it's a kick in the gut. And then I said, you know, maybe not. Let's find out what Parkinson's, we know what the diagnosis is, but what do people that have Parkinson's do?

And I couldn't find answers anywhere. You know, ride the bike. I heard that. Eat on a big bag. That was another thing. Get used to being tired. Get used to being unmotivated. I said, oh, wait a second. How can you say that just because you have Parkinson's? Well, now I understand that sometimes waking up in the morning and just thinking about brushing your teeth seems like you're talking to yourself about running a marathon. But then there's a different set of parameters. And you say, okay, is this what I'm dealing with? Well, I can get around that.

So it's been a constant, even with the kick in the gut called Parkinson's. I think we've continued to move forward in all aspects of what we do. And we're making the Parkinson's rule smarter for the experience. Do you know who Kirk Gibson is? Kirk has Parkinson's also. Okay. He is the embodiment of the warrior. He's the blood and guts.

Go get him. Beat him with a bloody stump anger yourself push yourself never look back etc did you wait real quick before you finish this story did you play with him or did you how did i'm coached against him he's younger than i am he's part of your generation yeah i mean he's infamous, or famous for rounding the bases, pumping his arm, you know see into the future. We're hanging out together and trying to fight what is bad and what is accepted with Parkinson's in a positive way. So you never know who your partners are gonna end up being, but if you're trying to become, if you're continuing to looking at things in a positive way,

people that should find you, find you. And that's kind of what I'm seeing right now. And everything that we touch, the cool thing about getting older is that you develop relationships that some are pretty impactful. The fact that I get to talk to a Nolan Ryan on a regular basis and his kids and his grandkids. The fact that I can hang out with Lindsay Vera, who I stood behind in a pizza joint in Florida. And the legendary, what do you want? He said, I have a medium pepperoni. And the gal said, you want to cut it in six pieces or eight? And Yogi said, I have a medium pepperoni. And the gal said, you want to cut it in six pieces, your eight? And Yogi said, you better cut it in six. I don't think I can eat eight. I mean, honestly, actually, no, you're laughing. I saw that in person. And to see

Lindsay running Yogi's museum and understanding the phrases like, when you come to a fork in the road, take it. Nobody ever goes there anymore. It's too crowded. I mean, things that were yogi-ism. She's the granddaughter of a legend and she's basically perpetuating the legend by running the museum. And I get to be involved with people like that.

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slash FindingMastery. Lindsay was one of the folks that I reached out to. So she wanted me to talk to you about the progression of learning, that you are relentless, and we've hit that. And then she also talked about how you, you've got a strong opinion. There's things that you know, but you have found that arguing is not a method. It is not the mechanism for growth. That came hard.

What you just said succinctly, when you're a small man with a big mouth and you have strong opinions, it equals ass kick. So I learned early on that it was okay to have a very strong opinion, but to become confrontational was not the way it was supposed to go. So like remember we talked earlier

where it hasn't all been easy and it's taken me probably most of my adult life to even though I know I'm right you it does you no good to to fight with someone about what they think is right but if you can collaborate with them, both people will walk away better for the experience. So early on, I knew my stuff was pretty good. And if you and I were talking and you said something that I thought was that I knew wasn't correct, I would call you on it or make fun of you because of it. And that just it didn't work. There wasn't any learning going on. What I have figured out in the last 10, 15 years is I really respect your belief. And I really respect your commitment to that belief. But I've been where you're at, where I've proven to myself that where you're at isn't where I want to be.

Is there a way we can both still hang out together without confrontation? And if we do that, we're both going to be better for the experience. That is something when you have an ego, and I'm not going to lie, I have an ego. But you never want to let ego get in the way of common sense or a good sense and i think as i've gotten older that's probably what i do better now than i've ever done so much inside of it's so jam-packed it's like if you could count i don't know gems per sentence they're just jammed in there so it's i'm i've been accused of being a living soundbite yeah maybe this will help our overall purpose in what we do with any one of my companies or any of the relationships that we want to inform instruct and inspire for ignition.

Now, each one of those require a little bit of explanation. Information is what you think. You want to find the most information you possibly can about whatever you're trying to solve or build or work towards. And having information is one thing, but instructing with that information is a different thing. There are so many Hall of Fame athletes that were Hall of Fame athletes without, they can't teach what they did. One of the benefits of being a marginal, in Don Zimmer's word, a and the horse-shaped athlete, is not only did I have to know what to do,

but I also had to know how to teach myself to do it. So you inform, you instruct. And then when you're exchanging information, there has to be some inspiration for ignition to take place. And inspiration can be hidden under motivation, motivation hope there's all kinds of words to talk about inspiration but every athlete that we deal with comes to the ballpark with x amount of motivation and what i tell my coaches you got to make sure you don't demotivate them. You're not going to get any more out of their motivation than what they showed up with.

But you can demotivate them, and that's what we're trying to avoid. So inform, instruct, inspire. And then when I was 17, Ralph Welch Park in Pomona, California, the Dodgers held a little clinic at that Ralph Welch Park in Pomona, California. The Dodgers held a little clinic at Ralph Welch Park, and the pitching clinicians were Sandy Koufax and Don Rysdale. And Koufax, about halfway through the camp, Koufax walked by me, put his hand on my shoulder and said, what's your name, son? I said, Tommy House.

He said, Tommy House, you have a big league curve curveball i'll see you in the big leagues one day i didn't give a damn what anybody said after that i knew i had a big league curveball and what i try to explain to the coaches when i'm talking to them about inspiring and getting a kid to have ignition you never know what that word or that touch or that demonstration gives that youngster the ignition have a lifetime challenge at what he wants to do very cool so let's let's stay on stories here nolan ryan this is actually from lindsay as well nolan ryan Greg Maddox, and Randy Johnson, all three folks that you've worked with, all different mindsets, all different perspectives and attitudes. How do you work with those extreme doers and support them to be their very best? So when it comes to the human mind,'re the human mind learns by framing things you know

you learn to learn you learn you learn to read and we talked about that and when it comes to input from the senses going into the brain um you frame a thought process or you you frame a way to learn and that's pretty much how you approach the world well when the way you frame a way to learn, and that's pretty much how you approach the world. Well, when the way you frame and think and try to teach doesn't match up with the individual you're trying to help, someone has to reframe. And I think that's in with the people I work with. We show them how to reframe to fit the athlete or the person that we're dealing with. We know that there's three ways that people learn. They learn by hearing, seeing, and feeling. And with that, like Nolan Ryan was one of the few athletes that learned all three ways. He could learn by listening, he could learn by seeing, and he could learn by feeling. Randy Johnson, talking to him, he could not learn anything auditorily by just hearing it.

He had to see it and feel it. So you figure out early on with your kids or whoever you're dealing with what way does this person learn and then you have to reframe your approach to the information exchange to fit is what yeah something I picked up is the phrase learn the learner and so if you want to help them understand you have to learn how they learn yeah and learn who what their first principles are what they're driven by what you just said is i think we talked about a little bit earlier you kind of have to put my glasses on you and look back at me to figure out how to make that work yeah socrates socrates had it figured out. Socrates never made a statement. The communication process is sender, receiver, feedback. If you only ask questions, it requires feedback. going to get this person you're teaching or mentoring, how are you going to get him or her

to listen and give you feedback that will help the communication process between the both of you? Is your 14-year-old a boy or a girl? It's a boy. Okay, so you're aware that a teenager has no frontal cortex whatsoever. The capacity for him to make a decision over the next five to eight years is minimal to nonexistent. Teenage boys are on this planet designed to piss their parents off. So I'm going to give you a little hint right now. Don't ever make a statement to your son. Ask a question. It forces him to give you an answer. And if it forces him to give you an answer, it is forcing him to actually try to think, even though he can. His frontal cortex renders his brain concrete-like. you say what are you going to do do you

understand that if you do that this is going to do you understand what the consequences are and what it forces him to think a little bit any communication is better than well i mean how many times so far have you asked him something and he just goes, oh, that used to really drive me nuts. Brian, what are you doing? Where are you going wrong? I mean, they're not going to give anything unless you ask a specific question. Let's use youth sport for just a minute. The car ride home is very intense for many young athletes and so it's because parents are

so charged emotionally by watching their kid and they're frustrated and or like you know like there's so much charge in it that the car ride home is why most kids quit sport that's been my experience at least so could you speak to how and maybe what so how would you coach parents on the car ride home and maybe what would you try to elicit in the athlete this is going to take a little bit of a setup mom has the most influence in the family on the athlete. I've never seen an athlete on TV turn around and say, hi, dad. Story real quick, my first trip into Los Angeles to play the Dodgers, when I got called up with the Braves, obviously my mom and dad came to the game.

They brought me in to face Willie Davis with the bases loaded in the bottom of the ninth. And when my mom was anxious or anxieties or nervous, she had this, she'd clear her throat in, you know, Ruth House's way to clear her throat. So I come stretch. There's kind of a low in the crowd. And I hear, I had to step off and look out towards center field and resist the impulse to say, Mom, this is what I do. Chill. It's not as bad as you think. So I think what goes on, I don't think athletes understand

that it's harder on a parent to sit and watch the game than it is for the athlete to play the game. There's a disconnect there. As a parent, you have to realize that even if it's delivered with love, trying to be a coach from the stands doesn't work. And post-game, it's not about the parent and the coach. It's about the kid. And the rule of thumb, working backwards in the car ride home, conversation should not be about the game, win, lose, or draw, whether your son or daughter did really well or not, conversations should be generated from the athlete. And there should be no teaching moments

until 24 hours later. You've got to let stuff settle in. And kids that are too invested in the feeling of winning and losing probably burn out with sports before age 14 or 15. Because quite simply, sports are games of failure coached by negative people in a misinformation environment. And you're trying to mentor a kid to survive in that environment, it does no good to talk about a winner or loss in a car after the game, especially with a little leaguer that all he wants to do is go have pizza or ice cream. So just because as an adult, as a parent, you care more than your kid does, doesn't make it right. You have to care as much, but you can't care more.

You have to make it about your athlete, your child, and not about yourself. And unfortunately, in today's world, and I'll be honest with you, I had a real difficult time watching my son compete. It drove me nuts. And I got more, I had to go to the outfield behind the fence and watch through the chain link fence for me to be able to be normal in watching one of his games. In fact, early on, he came to me about the fifth inning of a game and said, Dad, it might be a good idea if you went somewhere else because you're making too much noise, which I was. So I think if more parents would understand you can love the hell out of your kid, that's awesome. But when he's on the field, his success or failures have to be about him or her.

And if they ask questions, then you're there as a resource. But you don't offer until the learning environment is ready for it. And what happens with most parents and coaches is they're basically beating you up with information and instruction when all the kid wants to do is go have a piece of pizza i mean you make it sound so simple really unfortunately it isn't and because it's not i screwed this up i I'll say it right now. I'm very proud of it. I'm the world's greatest expert on what doesn't work. Okay. So go figure on that one. Go figure on that one.

Yeah, that is great. Tom, I could talk to you all day. This kind of stuff is fun. I don't get to have these kinds of conversations very often. I just want you to realize if it sounds like I've got it all figured out, I don't. If it sounds like anything other than I'm blessed to be around the people and in the environment that I'm in, then I haven't done my job. And again, running into someone like you in the media. I mean, I'm always cautioned about saying things

that would cause me a problem on social media. And I was a little nervous on where this was going to go today. But this is like sitting around and having a beer after a game in the clubhouse. That's the feeling I have right now. Golly. I'm sure you know that that's one of the highest compliments. You know, that was the design of this podcast,

these conversations, is to do exactly that. Well, it's a gift, and I'm going to blow a little smoke your way, too. For these kind of conversations to happen. There has to be some authenticity come across the screen also. And from initial, you know, senses with your producer to where we are right now, we've talked about a lot of things. But tell me it hasn't kind of been a fun little journey. How about it? No. Yeah, I feel.

Yeah. One, I feel like a kid in a candy shop, just like, oh, look at the gem. Look at that treat. Look at that treat. And I can't wait to replay it, write some notes down. You know, hopefully we can get a follow on at some point.

And to be- I would challenge you, if you see some words or some thoughts that need some expanding, let's do this again sooner rather than later. How about that? Okay, before we hang up though, Dak Prescott, some thoughts that need some expanding. Let's do this again sooner rather than later. How about that? Okay, before we hang up though, Dak Prescott, Tom Brady, and who else in the NFL have you spent some time with? Those are the only two that I personally know.

At one time, I've worked with 28 of the top 32 NFL quarterback. I'm getting older and I'm trying to retire. So underneath me at 3DQB are some pretty special people. The guy that has taken over 3DQB on a full-time basis is Adam Dato, who was the son of Rod Dato, the head baseball coach at USC that I played for. So you kind of see how it stays in the family. So right now, I think they're,

if not working with all the number one quarterbacks in the NFL, they're working with most of them and a lot of the collegiate studs also. The only full-time coaching I'm doing with quarterbacks is with Brady only because he's 45 and we've been hanging out with each other and it's more of a friendship now than a coach athlete thing. So I become a sounding board for, cause he's not, he can't hang around with the coaches and he doesn't have a whole lot in common with the 25 and 26 year old. So I become kind of a third party, uh, friend for him than a coach do you remember the first time you met him yes um it was at usc matt castle was it was a trojan um who played with tom in new england when tom was hurt that first year that year he was

hurt and we're going through our normal court. There's other quarterbacks. I think Breeze was there. I can't remember. There were five or six quarterbacks. And here comes Tom Brady. And he said, do you mind if I hang out, maybe work out with you? And that was the start. And the reason he came by, he had a long-term quarterback coach that passed away from cancer and he was looking for someone that you know might fill that void and because of people like drew breeze that seemed to be thriving in our environment the word got out and that quarterback fraternity is a pretty

small little group so one thing leads to another and pretty soon I'm working with them all. So that's where he showed up the first time, about 12 years ago now. And you're already really well-established to have a full body of work behind you. When he walks onto the field, and I mean, he's won a lot. And when he walks on the field, what is that like for you? Just another dude? Or is it like, okay, there's something special here? That's an interesting choice of words.

He's not just another dude. Obviously, we know he's pretty good. Right. But believe it or not, I treat a 12-year year old just like I treat a 32 year old and when an athlete comes in our environment they might come from mechanics but they're going to get

functional strength, nutrition, sleep and malemotional if they come from malemotional in other words we approach every interaction with every athlete the same, but we personally adapt the message to fit the need state of the athlete that shows up. So there's like one set of rules, but there's a million interpretation. And I think that, and we also have another thing that makes this difference there's something called IRB

Institutional Review Board when you're doing research and when I was up at SC we were IRB certified and the progression is privacy first then health and then performance. So we never talk about our clients ever. They can talk about us. And I think that's another reason that people are comfortable coming to us is because we're not going to use their name and likeness and what we're doing with them to make money. We are going to learn from them. They're going to learn from us. And they can talk about us all they want but the irb the privacy thing we still even today i i will not talk about what we actually work about with an athlete so can i see how those pieces fit together too oh yeah yeah i i you and i have played by the same set of rules there. And so I would never ask you about the nuances there,

but note that I asked your experience when he walked on, like, what was your experience about? Now let's take, let's take elite athletes for just a moment. And I do want to understand a methodology, you know, that you might apply and I'll oversimplify something. And let's say that somebody is, there's three buckets, stuff they're very skilled at, stuff they're really struggling with. And it's relative because, you know, they're competing on the world stage. Okay. And then there's stuff in the middle. Okay. And they're coming because they want to get better. And you're saying, right. It's, it's going to be much about the relationship and it's going to be about some mechanics. It's going to be about the way that we work together. And that in and of itself will be informative. But where do you choose? Do you

choose to amplify the bottom of the best, stuff in the middle, or stuff at the bottom? Because I know that you, and I can tell you how I approach it, but maybe I'll share that after. Where do you, if there was a pecking order of what to go after, how do you begin? Well, again, it's identifying what this person's need state is.

Where does he need help? And then realizing there are four levels of competence on the elite athlete level. There's unconscious incompetence. There's conscious incompetence. There's unconscious competence. And there's conscious competence. They all fit somewhere in there. Most elite athletes are unconsciously competent. They're really, really good, and they're not quite sure why. So that is the easy, that's the low-hanging fruit, because when they show up and they present themselves as being that individual, we obviously test.

We have what's called stat screening. Screening test is test for training. We can identify from our four legs of the health and performance table where what needs to be fixed and that's an easy teach when you run across someone like brady who shows up he's trying to get one% better at something every day of his life. And his commitment to that 1% is, it's breathtaking. He does it to a point where every throw he makes, he'll look at you to figure out if you were watching. And he'll actually do something wrong to make sure you're paying attention.

And if you don't tell him, come on, you're messing with me, you know that was wrong. In other words, he is so invested in the learning process. When you're done working with him, you're like drained because if he throws 60 balls, it's a master's thesis on 60 balls and they'll take notes and the way he learns is that we do it on the field they'll take a notebook and he'll make notes and then that night before he goes to bed he'll text me on the two or three things that he thought he learned new the two or three things that he needs to work on tomorrow.

Drew Brees, on the other hand, he doesn't care if there's 200 people working with him. He can go in and out of the teaching mode or the learning mode at will. Let me throw this at you real quick. Like everybody talks about the zone and the one thing i've seen about the elite of the elite is we know for a fact that the zone is when the stimulus of the environment is inversely proportionate to the amount of thinking required the crazier it is the less they have to think i hope that made sense So it's, it's our job to help them understand.

Andrew Luck was the best at this I've ever seen. He could take, he took to this day and he cut his career short because he just had enough football. It still leads the world in fourth quarter comebacks because that's when the time made the most sense to him. That's when being in the zone worked the best. And being able to allow him to be Andrew Luck when you did like in a one-on-one like this, he's kind of uncomfortable to deal with

because he's so smart that he finishes sentences for you. I mean, he's just, he's in a different plateau and learning from him that silence is a weapon. I would just be quiet when we were teaching and let him teach himself until he got tired of teaching himself. And then we'd ran it in and go from there. So remember, who had to reframe in that relationship? And if you're a sports psychologist, you do the same thing. When someone walks in and that someone has to vent, has to talk about himself or herself, you just have to sit and listen until they've

reached a point where they're ready and old old nation treachery experience knowledge and wisdom allows you to sit there and be patient even though you can help them you could help them right now you have to wait until the time is right that is the the art of the science yeah but again it doesn't come easy you have to screw it up a whole bunch of times before it gets to where it's even tolerable you know you say that and i it's so true but like concretely is this like the type of mistake that you're talking about like let me go mechanics for just a minute like would you get people thinking about their mechanics as opposed to trying to put a hole in the you know the the numbers of a jersey you know like the external focus versus the internal focus like are those are those like kind of the mechanical things that

you would screw up as I'm not talking about the relationship stuff at this point again I'll borrow a Yogi Berra term, don't think you're hurting the team. The feeling side of the equation is that you care, you care too much, or you care more about outcome than you do process. You have to arrange those three. If you put them two together with what we call the passion triangle, where you have passion, motivation, and commitment. Put all three of those triangles together, and you got yourself a pyramid, and you got an athlete that's going to play a long time. Tom, how do you think about the way you want people to think about

you? And I'm getting at like, you know, you're in the winter phase and you've had this amazing experience in life. And you started off by saying that you kind of battered and bruised and slid into home base. You know, this amazing life, right? How do you want people to think about you? I would like if I had a wish list that if someone thinks back on an interaction with me, that we had a good time getting better. That's cool. And because fun is a prerequisite. If you've ever been to any one of our camps or clinics,

you're going to see more kids laughing and having a good time and working harder than they've ever worked in their lives. But it isn't work when you're having a good time. Tom. Thank you. Can I throw something at you're having a good time. Tom, thank you. Can I throw something at you here? Yeah, please. Okay.

The term imagination. A three-year-old in a sandbox has an imagination. You ask that three-year-old, what do you want to be when you grow up? He'll look you in the face and say, I want to be a fire truck. Well, you and I know you can't be a fire truck, but his imagination allows him. And what happens when you go from imagination out of the sandbox, when you're learning and moving forward, you start assessing behavior and belief. And the more your behaviors cause something to happen, the more you understand the value or the need for risk management. So risk when tolerable

is good for you. Risk with uncertainty is bad for you. Risk without the understanding of consequences is devastating. And then you go through life to where you get to my age, where you can assess risk to anything you're doing, and you go out and you steal from these venues, these pillars of expertise all over. And the imagination of a 75-year-old is taking seemingly non-related from pillars of whatever and putting something together that has never been done before. And that's what the really cool thing about getting old is. And then the fact that the risk management is a three-year-old and the risk management for me at 75,

I really don't give a shit if it's risky. Because risk is knowing what you have to lose. And I can't lose. I can't lose. From where I am right now, I can have ups and downs, but I'm not going to lose. That's a great way to end this conversation. Tom, again, you're an absolute legend. Thank you for sharing experiences and wisdom and applied practices. And you are a gift to people in your life. Thank you. Thank you, Mike. I appreciate it. This was fun. I'll hang out

with you anytime. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no-cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're listening. Also, if you haven't already, please consider dropping us a review on Apple or Spotify. We are incredibly grateful for the support and feedback. If you're looking for even more insights, we have a newsletter we send out every Wednesday. Punch over to findingmastery.com slash newsletter to sign up. The show wouldn't be possible without our sponsors. And we

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