Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Jemele Hill, Senior Staff Writer for The Atlantic

Episode Date: August 21, 2019

This week’s conversation is with Emmy Award winning journalist, Jemele Hill.Jemele is the co-founder of Lodge Freeway Media and a Senior Staff writer for The Atlantic.She was previously the chief correspondent and senior columnist for The Undefeated, ESPN’s content initiative exploring the intersections of sports, race and culture.Prior to joining The Undefeated, Jemele co-anchored SportsCenter with Michael Smith.In August 2018, the National Association of Black Journalist awarded Jemele with Journalist of the Year Award and in July 2016, Jemele participated in The President and the People: A National Conversation – a one-hour town hall with President Barack Obama on race relations, justice, policing and equality.Jemele also recently debuted a new podcast on Spotify, called Jemele Hill is Unbothered.Unbothered explores the news of the day and the intersectionality between the worlds of sports, politics, music, identity and culture.In this conversation we touched on so many important topics – everything from courage, vulnerability, and honesty to why this world could use more empathy.I loved getting a chance to sit down with Jemele and think you’ll feel the same way after hearing her story._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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and by trade and training, I'm a sport and performance psychologist, as well as the co-founder of Compete to Create. And the whole idea behind this podcast, behind these conversations, is to learn from people who have committed their life efforts towards mastery. And we want to better understand what they're searching for, what they crave, how they organize their inner world. We want to understand their psychological framework, which is how they make sense of themselves and the world and events in it.

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but for energy and focus, recovery, for longevity. And I love that David is making that easier. So if you're trying to hit your daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com, slash finding mastery. Okay, this week's conversation is with Emmy Award winning journalist,

Jamel Hill. You probably recognize her if you're involved in sport or interested in culture. Jamel is the co-founder of Lodge Freeway Media and a senior staff writer for The Atlantic. She was previously the chief correspondent and senior columnist for The Undefeated, and that's ESPN's content initiative, exploring the intersections of sport and race and culture. So prior to that, joining The Undefeated, Jamel also co-anchored SportsCenter on ESPN. She really understands the intersection of sport and culture. She's got her arms around this thing. And I don't say that lightly. And in August 2018, the National Association of Black Journalists awarded her with the Journalist of the Year Award. And in July 2016, Jamel participated in The President and the People.

It was a national conversation, a one-hour town hall with President Barack Obama on race relations, justice, policing, and equality. Jamel also recently debuted a new podcast on Spotify called Jamel Hill is Unbothered, where she explores the news of the day at the intersection between worlds of sport, politics, music, identity, and culture. And in this conversation on this podcast, we touched on so many important topics, everything from courage and vulnerability and honesty, and why this world could use more empathy as a source of strength. So I love getting the chance to sit down with

Jamel. And I think you'll feel the same way after hearing her take on her story and her life and the experiences that have led her to today. And so with that, let's jump right into this week's conversation with Jamel Hill. Jamel, how are you? I'm good. Yeah, this is, I have to say, I'm looking forward to this interview because this is so much different than any other interview I ever give. So this is going to be as much of a treat for me as I hope it is for you. Likewise. Yeah. So let's start with the congratulations for your body of work, your point of view, your

ability to grab attention and then to do something meaningful with it. So congratulations on your body of work. Thank you. As I'm sure you're probably used to hearing is that when you're, you're in it and you're going through it, you never look at it that way. Um, people ask me all the time, like, Oh, is this what you always imagined? This is what you always dreamed. I was like, no, I literally never dreamed any of this. And there's a certain degree of discomfort that comes from it because I don't, there's a way that I look at myself versus how other people look at me that is contrasting and wildly different. So as much as people may see me in this space of, you know, being on TV and being at the Atlantic and having a podcast and doing all these other things, it is wildly uncomfortable. Okay. You know, I'm not going to let that slip. I know. Okay. So that, but the, the main statement that you just

made that I want to pull on just a little bit is, and maybe you can help unpack the way that people see you versus the way you see yourself. So I, that is a massive crisis for many humans, right? And trying to play the game that I want people to see me a certain way, which you don't seem to be ailed by that at all. So can you unpack like how you think people see you versus how you feel and organically move through your own body and your own life? So a lot of people, because of what I'm known for, and just as a quick sound bite on that or a quick bite size way to sum that up, is people see me as the woman who tweeted about Donald Trump and became a household name when the president asked for her to be fired when she was on a network named ESPN, which is a small network that you probably never

heard of. So people see me in the vein of being outspoken, an activist, and somebody who is deserving of a much higher place in this society of which I would see myself. And that's not to say I'm not outspoken. That's not to say that when I said that about Donald Trump, I didn't believe it because I did. That's why I said it. But it is to say that when people come up to me and they're just gushing with this praise of like, oh, you're so awesome.

And I can't believe you speak out the way you do and you inspire me. It feels wildly uncomfortable. Not because I don't think I did those things. It is because to me, that day that I tweeted about the president and it became a national news story was Wednesday. It wasn't the day I tweeted about the president. It was Wednesday. It was, I was being myself. I was not being anybody else. And so for people to think that was special, I don't think it was special. I think I just said, frankly, it was something that's not really that original.

To call Donald Trump a white supremacist is literally like saying the table we're at right now has a white cloth on it. It's not that original. And so for people to say that that was so inspiring for them, it's a little crazy to me because I did not think it was that. So I am constantly bargaining in my own mind how people see me versus how I see myself. I'm happy they have, I'm not complaining about it, about the intention or the fact that people draw inspiration. If I can help somebody draw inspiration and do something differently, make a different choice, I'm happy and I accept that. And I love that. But at the same time, I feel like it's an old joke that Chris Rock used to make about men who pat themselves on the back for babysitting their kids, right? They're your kids,

you don't babysit them, right? So I feel like it's almost the same thing. I was like, you're patting me on the back for literally something that was not that hard of a conclusion to reach. Okay, this is maybe a bad comparison. But one legged mountain climbers say the same thing. They say, I just did it. What do you mean? Like, like I really wanted to climb it. And so that seems a little extreme, but I think Rosa Parks, she did the same thing. Like she'd say, you know, I just, I did what felt right on that bus that day. And okay. And I think I can go down the list with many examples of people that just did what made sense. And then other people look and say, well, I've wanted to say something like that or do something like that, but I didn't know how.

Do you think it's the knowing how or the courage that you are an emblem for to be able to actually do it? Which part of that do you make sense of? If I had to guess, I would say it is the knowing how. But maybe some of it is that people don't realize in their own individual lives. Maybe they didn't have the megaphone that I had or the platform that I had, but they have probably made a dozen different decisions that have impacted people's lives and they have not realized what those were. And in their mind, it was completely normal to do this. Even taking something as mundane as when someone who is homeless asked you for money and you give them $10. You do not think about the $10 at all. But what if that $10 led to him buying a tie and him getting a great job interview. And then he landed the job and it

changed his whole life. It just so happened in my case, I got to hear about it. So my point is just that we make a lot of decisions in our lives that wind up a lot of times paying it forward in ways we can't even imagine. So maybe that's part of this reason of why I don't think I'm particularly special or unique. That's not to denigrate myself or to downgrade anything I've done, not just with that, but just in my career. But it still is just to explain the awkwardness of that moment when to me that is perfectly normal, but to everybody else, it seems completely abnormal. Do you follow in a regular line of thinking the butterfly effect? Like, is that something that makes sense to you and you think about, and it helps guide your thoughts and your words and even actions? Um, yeah, I would say that I do,

uh, because I do, and maybe it's just because of my platform having exploded the way that it has. I think more about the consequences of what I do. It doesn't leave me in a frightened place or a fearful place, but I think about the people coming behind me, the people whose shoulders I'm standing on. I'm much more cognizant of that than I probably have ever been. And so I consider it a failure on my part that if, as I'm going through whatever door, if I cannot kick my leg out to hold it open for somebody else, it just seems like a waste of time. Because I never got into this job, this profession it knowing I would be broke and poor and I would tell stories that people nobody cared about. And that was sort of the mindset I had because journalism is a completely thankless profession for the most part. There's nobody who could say they got into this for money.

When I graduated from high school, or not high school, from college, the average salary for a journalist was $19,000. I was already in the hole, okay? I haven't spent 40 years at Michigan State. So I clearly did not get into this for money. The idea of fame was preposterous. So I got into it for the thankless, ridiculous job of being committed uh to truth um i sound like superman now but it's a reason by the way small tangent why a lot of great superheroes have been journalists peter parker superman clark kent reason they've been journalists so um i got into it for the thanklessness of it because it there was no earthly reason why anybody would want to be a journalist. Okay. So I get the, the money and the thanklessness, but what is it that was primarily driving you? And now we're going back.

Let's go back to early days in your life and to get some context. It'd be great if you could shape some of that. Sure. But I want to know what is underneath your relentless approach to the truth. I was always curious. I think that's the number one quality a journalist needs to have. Like you need to be curious. You need to know why things work the way they do. You need to know why they don't work.

And I was always that way. Okay. Why did that become an important idea for you? So just, uh, you really put me on the couch here. Oh no, but that's not what this is. I know. This is okay. Well, hold on now, because this is meant for us to, for, for our community to also understand

what you've been searching for, which is the truth. So you, you have a way about yourself that you've organized your life for truth. You respect the butterfly effect. You're not in it for fame and attention, and you've become a disruptive voice and emblem for change for truth. So where's that come from? Cause it ain't easy. No, it's not. I mean, I guess in thinking about, you know, the way I grew up, up, I guess to give a little background. So my parents, they never married, but both were both are recovering addicts. My dad was addicted to heroin.

My mother tried literally every drug you can think of. How do you know that? Oh, because I had to live it. You know, I mean, it is my mother had me when she was 18 years old, and she did have a really good support network, but she's also a survivor of rape and molestation. And surviving those two things is what, frankly, sped her toward drug abuse. And as a child, I had to witness a lot of this, because as much as, you know, I'm sure every parent understands this, as much as you try to shield your kids from whatever you're doing, it could be something small or it could be something as major as what I experienced, you don't actually shield them from it.

Meaning she wasn't able to shield them. No, I mean, and in many ways, her nature of her personality was not to do it. She was definitely one of those do as I say, not as I do kind of mothers. And so I have been with my mother when she's bought drugs off the street. I've been there when she's been high. Like, it's, I've been there. How old were you? I mean, when she was doing this, I mean, I was like, because she was, my mother was, she was abducted and raped at gunpoint when we moved to Texas.

So that happened when I was like at six years old. I didn't even know it happened until a few years later and living with the trauma of someone having to survive that and to dull the pain of what that was like. You know, she was coming out of store in Houston and a random person snatched her and raped her in the back of a van by shotgun. And she had to plea for her life to get out of there. And she eventually jumped out the car. And so I cannot grapple with what kind of trauma that leaves somebody with. And when I was younger and growing up with it, like I never understood why my mother had to have a nightlight on or wasn't comfortable in the dark or all these other instances that once I was older and understood

sexual abuse and surviving sexual assaults, I didn't put it together. And then when I started to put it together and I realized that's what that was about, I wasn't angry at her. I mean, I survived it with her. But I had a much greater and deeper and more sympathetic perspective when I got older. Do you remember a time when you were, I guess, starting around six or older where you would say, I know this isn't right, but this is how we're living? No, I would. I mean, I knew, I mean, once she really started to kind of abuse drugs, I knew it wasn't right. And I told her that I would express my disappointment through either my anger or my attitude or through writing. Is this hard to talk about? Cause I don't, it's not hard to talk about if it was, if it were hard to talk about, I'd be

like, dude, I just want to talk about this, but I'm hopefully this will make sense once I make it kind of come full circle. So here's the thing. The reason I gravitated to I love that you would say no. Like I love never say no though. Yeah. Okay. Cause I, I, I told you before this interview started, your job is to ask the question. My job is to figure out the answer. Right. So if it's something I don't want to talk about, I'll just say, Hey, it's something I don't want to talk about, but I'm okay with it. I've, I mean, uh, I like to think in my mind, I've resigned a lot of things and have come to have closure and all those other psychological terms that you use with it. The reason this is important for me, because you've, you've been able

to dedicate your life to your craft and to do it exceptionally well. And I want to understand and deconstruct how that works for you. And over themes or over many of these, we're, we're seeing patterns emerge. And one of them is unfortunately, like people that have done the extraordinary have faced down some really hard times. Yeah, it was something I read by another psychologist that kind of put it into perspective. And they were talking specifically about children of recovering addicts. There is a deep sense of responsibility that you feel. You're not sure how you develop it, but you have it. And so I've told both my parents that the greatest gift they can ever give me is they taught

me everything not to do. So my level of drive, ambition, and hunger to do this was established by the fact that I saw a whole lot of adults around me who never put themselves in a position where they can make their own choice. I saw them as being, you know, of them having had circumstances dictated to them based off the choices they made. And maybe it's the type A in me or the control freak in me, which, by the way, I learned through therapy. I'm a control freak. I did not know this before. I learned through therapy. It's true. And I realized that a lot of my drive and just intention was because I was so unhappy with what was happening in my own life and felt like I had no control that the life I had in my mind, I was building for myself. And it even came out in my writing is that I was never, ever going to let myself be put in a situation where I did not have control. Just wasn't going

to happen. And so, um, that could be good and bad, right? It could be good because it's, it leads you to your ambition and your drive. And that's great. That does not work in every sector of your personal life. And meaning there's a consequence. There's definitely a consequence. The consequence of how I grew up and I think feeling so disappointed at times in my parents at different times is it allowed me to have real emotional walls. Where did you just feel what you just said? Where'd you feel it in your body? Oh, I mean, I felt it in my heart. Which was the disappointment piece? The disappointment. Like there's, if you ask me the number one thing that people can do to me

that I would literally never talk to them again, you can't disappoint me. Okay. Hold on. So you just felt it. I saw it. Yeah. And then what did you do with it? Because people feel pain all the time and they remember pain. This one we're talking about is disappointment. And part of the internal skills of people is the psychological skill of being able to manage difficult emotions. So what did you do just now to manage the emotion? Well, I mean, I had to suppress some of it. Did you? Yeah.

So how did you do that? Well, because I think it's sort of learned at this point. So why did you do it? Why did you suppress it? Because I've always been that way. You know, if you ask any of my friends how they would describe me, one of the three things that would probably come to mind would be that I'm not very emotional, right? And a lot of the reason I'm not very emotional is because I don't like to be disappointed.

And so there's this defense mechanism that you build and you don't even realize you built it because there are still, my mother and I have a million great memories. Part of the reason I gravitated to sports was because of her. all the time. Baseball was my first love, right? So she made me skip school. We go to Tigers games, $5 bleachers seats when that was a thing. I'm old enough to win. You could pay five bucks each and you can go to the ballpark to get a brew. I get a hot dog. It was great. But if you ask me of what's the most distinct memory that comes to mind from your childhood, I wouldn't say that. You know what I'd probably say? I'd say the time she sold my TV for drugs. That's what I'd probably say. And so it's that disappointment that festers.

And I had to learn to deal with that and not have that impact a lot of my relationships. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentous. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday, what you put in your body matters. And that's why I trust Momentous.

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stay focused for longer without digital fatigue creeping in. Plus, they look great. Clean, clear, no funky color distortion. Just good design, great science. And if you're ready to feel the difference for yourself, Felix Gray is offering all Finding Mastery listeners 20% off. Just head to FelixGray.com and use the code findingmastery20 at checkout. Again, that's felixgray. You spell it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com and use the code findingmastery20 at felixgray.com for 20% off. On the idea of dealing with disappointment and stemming from an early experience where mom sold your TV and the disappointment of really, I'm guessing that that snapped to the disappointment where

a caretaker, it was bigger than the TV, but the caretaker wasn't there to take care. And it would even do the thing that was unthinkable to sell your favorite toy, right? Yeah. For what aim? What was she selling it for? For drugs. For drugs. Yeah. Okay. So? What was she selling it for? For drugs. For drugs, yeah. Okay, so how are you doing with dealing with disappointment? How is your strategy working for you? And that is not a loaded question.

It's like, really, I'm sure that... So my strategy became to not get close enough to be disappointed. That's how you prevent it. It's like, I wouldn't be disappointed because I'm not invested. So while I certainly had friends who I loved and cherish, still do. I mean, I'm engaged. So clearly, like, there's a man I've decided I'm investing all the way in a relationship. If he was here, how would he say?

How would he answer some of this? He'd say, she is? You know what? He would probably, because I've been the most open with him, but that's through years of understanding what my defense mechanisms were. Yeah. So he's getting the 2.0 version. He didn't get the 1.0 version where, yeah, it took a while for me to invest in those kind of relationships. The running joke my friends always say is that I'm everybody's best friend.

And they're like, you're everybody's best friend, but nobody knows you. I was like, I know. That is exactly how I like it. Because there is something in me that gets very uncomfortable about the idea that somebody may know me enough that they may weaponize this information or they may use it to their advantage or it's going to disappoint me somehow. And as an adult understanding those things, I had to do a lot of work to figure that part out because I was in a space where, you know, the people that are closest to you disappoint you and it never leaves you. I mean, you forgive them. I've forgiven my mother a billion times. Like I have no hatred or whatever. We have a very good relationship now.

But the fact is, is that there is some part of me that never forgets the emotional wounds of that. I mean, my therapist told me this and this was amazing. She said childhood lasts forever. And she's right. And I was like, I didn't realize that until she put it that way. I was like, it does. And I thought I was in a different place with that than I actually was. That's really cool insight. And do you know if your mom had PTSD? She absolutely has PTSD. And still has it. Still working through it. And did you have it? I don't know is the best answer that I can come up with. Obviously, I had some form of it because emotionally it impacted my other relationships.

But it didn't traumatize you in other ways that you avoid. Yeah. So this is an interesting, I hope this is okay to talk about, right? So PTSD, I think is a bad name, right? Post-traumatic stress disorder actually describes it, but, but really what it is, is a reavoidance of trauma. So people that go through heavy, something really heavy, they fundamentally reorganize their life to avoid being re-traumatized. So when I hear you describe like how you work and the mechanisms of safety, which I can't wait to pull on that thread to say, how has that helped you, right? Be extraordinary in your craft. But maybe what you're doing is

you're organizing your intimacy life to not have another trauma. Yeah. I mean, I'm completely guilty of that. No, I was like, I would not debate you on that at all. But I think it happened in a way that was a little different because it wasn't that I didn't want friends. I'm a social person, so it's not that. But when it came to people really knowing me, I was very hesitant. So how are you doing this conversation? Yeah, this conversation is good. But I'm also somebody who believes in doubling down on discomfort because that's the only way you can grow.

Because you said that earlier in the conversation that it's really uncomfortable the way people see me and who I really am. There's an uncomfortableness in it. So let's, let's unpack that a little bit. What does that uncomfortableness look like for you? Well, I think part of it is that I don't, I don't want people to lionize me because, I mean, I don't think I'm necessarily, again, I'm not that special. I mean, I'm not saying that, you know, I don't have my best days. But what I'm saying is that sometimes when I hear, especially when I'm at, say, an awards ceremony or something where I'm being honored for something, the way that they describe me in this bio, I'm like, who is that? That is clearly not me. Like, are you kidding me?

Those intros are outrageous aren't they it's every good thing that's ever happened it is all strung together in six sentences well not just that especially because i went through a period where there was out in social spaces there was a lot of celebrities that were coming up to me and saying like oh my god i'm so inspired by you and i'm like because of the donald trump thing yeah because of the thing. And so I was just like, but you're brilliant. Like I have nothing to be inspired by. Like you are actually brilliant. I'm faking being brilliant. Like I'm not really, you know, so it was very odd and un, you know, uncomfortable that you never know who's watching as they often say. And so I have a ton of stories about like, you never know who's watching as they often say and so i have a ton of stories about like you

never know who's watching like okay i'm glad that is the case and so you what you start developing is a little bit as they call it imposter syndrome yes right where you're just like hey talking about me right like this cannot they're gonna find out that I got lucky or that was just, that it was just kind of a thing that just happened. Uh, that's not to say I wouldn't do it again, but it is to say that that was in many respects, lightning in a bottle. I can't tell you how many folks that we've had this conversation on finding mastery that have talked, because I asked the question, like, Hey, have you ever struggled with imposter syndrome? Better than 80% say, yeah. Isn't that wild?

It is, but like it isn't. I guess now that I've gone through it, I understand it. And I think it's even worse if you are a woman, right? Because there is a conditioning that happens with us, well, we are sort of taught to never make ourselves the center of attention or that we're to sort of perform in this, you know, self-deprecating way because we are not used to owning a lot of our own influence and power. Okay. I love this. How many, how many fundamental dictums have you changed from childhood to now? So like children should be seen or women or girls maybe should be seen and not heard, right?

Like how many of those have you changed? So one of the decisions that I made in order to try to make sure I was not living some form of emotional PTSD, as we just talked about a minute ago. I wanted to do everything counter to everything I was not living some form of emotional PTSD as we just talked about a minute ago. I wanted to do everything counter to everything I was taught. Come on. Everything counter. So, like, you know, marriage hasn't really worked that well in my family. I mean, I'm not unique in that sense. It hasn't worked that well in a lot of families, right?

I used to mess with my mother, my grandmother, who's no longer living, and my great aunt, who also is no longer living. I used to, when they were ever in a room together, I'm like, you know, between the three of y'all, y'all been married eight times. I used to mess with them all the time. And they were conditioned and raised, but just how relationships and marriages were thought of during the time that they came about. They're all very independent women. Independence wasn't valued or accepted. And so because of that, they ran often into some conflicts. I say all that to say is I'm one of those people. I, it may not be the smartest thing to do. And, uh, this is not necessarily related to love.

I wanted a life where it wasn't just about surviving, but living. I was taught how to survive. I was never taught how to live. And so I wanted to make sure once I got to a certain point in my life that I lived. And even if it came with like experiencing heartbreak or experiencing things that are quite normal, I'd rather die on the hill of optimism than one of not believing that people are truly capable of being their best selves. I'd rather fall in love and be totally heartbreaking and wrong than live a life where I never fell in love and I never tried. I don't want to live that life. I want to be totally countered to what I was conditioned to do. And it does, you know, it comes with its faults and its drawbacks.

But I'd rather believe than not. Because if you don't believe, then what am I here for? Right? So despite all the things that I went through as a child and growing up, I have somehow been infected with an optimist spirit. Okay. So optimism is obviously another main theme that keeps emerging for people that push on human boundaries. And optimism is a learned skill. It's not something that we're born with. And so we have to learn how to interpret the future. And it's basically that it's going to work out.

That's what optimism is, right? Okay. So check the box there. But I want to go back. You're saying I'd rather love and feel the pain of disappointment, but that's fundamentally different than maybe your, um, I don't know how old you are, but your tweens, your twenties, you know, that's because it early in the conversation, you said, no, no, no, I'm protecting, I'm guarding. I'm not letting anybody in. So I'm, I'm one of those when I'm in,

I'm in, right? Okay. When I'm in. How many times have you been heartbroken? Oh, that I can, that freshly come to mind? Probably two to three times. Okay, that's good. So you've felt that. You've been curled up on a couch before. I have. As I like to say, I have been Glenn Close, sitting there flicking the light on and off.

I ain't trying to stab nobody, but I'm just saying for all those who get that fatal attraction joke is like, yes, I've been there. I've been Alex Forrester minus the trying to, you know, boiling the rabbit and, uh, you know, trying to stab Michael Douglas to death. Okay. All right. So where did that begin to shift for you? And because I'm, I'm guessing, so risk-taking is a big part of living towards the edges of capacity. You got to take some risks and it feels like your biggest risk was not saying Donald Trump is your big risk was letting people in. Totally. Right. That was your, is that your big heroic accomplishment or change maybe as a better word than accomplishment? Is that, is that the thing inside of you that feels

the edge of vulnerability and strength at the same time? Yeah. I mean, I've learned to accept that, that edge of vulnerability. And I talked about this earlier is, you know, I really can't say where it came from, but maybe it was because growing up, I was in so many uncomfortable situations that uncomfortable became normal, but I truly do embrace discomfort. Because as I said, like, I honestly think that's the only way you can grow that if I didn't make myself uncomfortable, either personally or professionally, I feel like I would not be where I was. Can you walk through two, three, four, like quick hits of things that when you look back were really uncomfortable that you worked through? And then the second part of that is like, how did you work through it? Oh, I mean, you know, easily. I mean, being at ESPN, like when I started at ESPN in November 2006, they hired me as a writer for ESPN.com.

I was not going into it with the idea of being on television. But nevertheless, that happened. And so before I left, I was on TV every day for five years. I had my own daily sports debate show. I hosted the 6 o'Clock Sports Center. That is hugely uncomfortable because all of a sudden you go from being a person to being the person you see on TV. So your identity is done. Even now, if I walk out of this hotel and I get hit by a bus, it's going to be former ESPN reporter who tweeted about Donald Trump got hit by a bus. So your identity sort of ceases to exist.

Yeah. I mean, I never, despite the fact I'm in a media profession, I don't like being the center of attention. So it was counter to everything that I am. I mean, I'm not saying I'm shy, but I'm definitely not the person that wants to be the center of attention. Take me back to the first time you're at the desk, lights are on, your heart's pounding. So here's the weird thing is I also have this really good ability to be totally unaware of the situation. I mean, wait a minute. I feel the same way. It's like, like you're unaware, get the moment, but then don't get the magnitude of the moment. Correct. That is me. So the first time I'm on ESPN on TV, I was just like, I don't care.

I'm not trying to be a TV person. I'll just be me. This is, oh, I love this. This is why when athletes or extraordinary people at a young age share their talent. Okay. So a young athlete, this is the easy storyline, but it happens in every discipline. When all of a sudden their world around them changes

because the adults treat them differently and it's because of how good they are at the thing, they begin to foreclose on their identity. And they say, that's right, I'm an athlete and I'm the center of attention. So I'm like the star and I'm an athlete. They foreclose on everything else. They don't know if they could be a musician, if they could A, B, and C,

whatever. So what ends up happening is when they go out to test their skills, when they start to get kind of what's at, what's really happening, it feels like it's life and death because their entire identity is at stake. And our brains don't have this redundancy where it's like that's the center for life and death and over here is the center for performance anxiety it's the same freaking thing it feels like life and death so you didn't foreclose on your identity no i just thought it was something cool to do. And then they paid me some extra money and I was like, I'm good. Like it was never that big of a deal to me. So, okay. When I hear that, I pull on that idea, which is the gift that you might be able to give others that are trying to figure out how to deal with pressure is to say, no, no, no, just be yourself. That's what I tell them is the most basic advice, basic, simple,

easy to say, not as easy to do type of advice. Okay. Who are you? Who, who, who are you? I mean, honestly, anybody who has known me will tell you this. And, um, like I'm literally, I'm still the girl who, uh, loved baseball, was a big time boy, could imitate the bat swings of everybody from Will Clark to Barry Bonds. I could do that. I'm still that person. And somebody who always felt like my purpose was very much tied into the impact I can have on other people's lives as opposed to my own. To certainly do things for myself was great. I'm not trying to make it seem like I'm Mother Teresa. It's not like that. But I always felt like there was a lot of beauty and a lot of, you know, just a lot to be gained by telling other people's stories. That's why I gravitated to storytelling because a lot of, look, I know a lot of people are out on journalists. I get it. We did a miserable job with a lot of things and that currently we see is prevalent today. But if you get down and you ask most of them why they're in it, you'd be shocked at the reasons.

The reasons are very altruistic and frankly, kind of corny. It's, I believe that whole telling the truths of people who can't speak for themselves but that was you as a child yeah i believed in the idea of bringing awareness to things that people would rather be kept in the dark i believed in the idea of holding power accountable because maybe it's because i saw so many powerless people in my life that I felt like if they just had somebody who could explain the context of which they were living and why they got there, then that might lead to a little bit more empathy slash sympathy, right? It's really easy to say that, you know, people on welfare, they need to work for everything they have. Okay, theoretically that works. Having been on welfare for a huge percentage of my childhood, that is better in theory than in actual practice. So it's like, yeah, it's real easy to say,

pull yourself up by the bootstraps, but what if you don't have a strap? Then what? Right? Then what happens? Then it's just survive the best way you can. And so I developed this sense of empathy and compassion brought by my own situation. Like when you see your own mother go through all these things, then it's hard not to have that. Like I would be, you know, a huge hypocrite if having grown up and being raised by somebody who needed public assistance, who was on drugs, who needed these programs, if I wanted to turn around and eliminate them for everybody else. I see the real work and the help it can do. One of the big reasons I became a journalist is through a high school program that was aimed at getting Detroit area high

school kids involved in journalism. That's how I became a journalist. One of those programs that people read about, they don't think two seconds about, and they have no idea what is being done to impact these lives. Got an academic scholarship to Michigan State. That's what I did. I was like, I did that because I knew I had to do that because no one was going to pay for college for me. I didn't even know how that would have ever happened without that. So that to me feels a little bit like a bootstrap that you said somehow internally, and the bootstrap is not a literal thing, but internally, you said to yourself at some point, I'm going to figure this out. I don't have a whole lot of resources to leverage.

But you know what? I heard the story that, and I'm making this up, but I heard the story that if I got really good grades, school would be taken care of. But the one thing I'm always careful to say is that we cannot treat people who make it in spite of as if because of like, in spite of is different, right? I made it in spite of, because statistically I wasn't supposed to LeBron James talks about this all the time. You know, um, I do think he's one of the three or four best sports sports stories ever told. I put Serena Williams and Venus Williams in that same category. I'm sure somebody else I'm forgetting, but just looking at his life, somebody who lived in like eight or nine different places, born to a mother at 14, 15 years old, everything about his story

says he was never supposed to make it. Thank God he got blessed with being six, eight, because I don't know what would have happened to LeBron James if he were 5'11", right? And so he understands innately that he is the exception. He's not the rule. As my man Jamie Foxx says in Django, I'm that one in 10,000. So you cannot create policy or attitude based off the one in 10,000. Create it off the 9,999, because that's the reality. So as much as it may have been a me, there was a bunch that did not make it because

they did not have the same access, tools, whatever you want to call it. And so a lot of what we have done, you know, in this nation is like, you could you could be is something as simple as you're born in the wrong zip code could determine your whole life from a zip code. And so I'm always super cognizant and speak to the fact that, yeah, that's great. And y'all can hold me up for this story. But do understand that I could name you 10 or 15 girls I personally knew, same circumstance, never got here. You know, when I played high school softball, I went to Mumford in Detroit. People didn't understand that when Eddie Murphy wore the t-shirt in Beverly Hills Cop, it was actually a real high school because the director and creator of the series, Jerry Berkenheimer,

went to Mumford. So Mumford High School, real high school in Detroit. It was my first year playing high school softball. Because I played since I was like seven or eight years old. We had a center fielder. She might be the best center fielder I've ever seen. Amazing athlete. She was great. But what we didn't know is she was also working as a stripper during our, well, she would have been a junior or senior during what was my sophomore year.

And because she was working as a stripper, her grades were horrible. And so by the time we figured out she was ineligible, it was the season started. And she was smart. She was an amazing athlete. She would have been D1 material for sure. The difference is she was stripping in high school. That's the difference. And so sometimes that difference between good to great, much like in sports, the difference between you being LeBron James or somebody nobody's ever heard of that winds up being just that dude at the park nobody's heard of is so much closer than you think and so I always try to keep that in mind in terms of

being in a space of gratitude but yet ownership is a difference and understanding that people can only take so much weight into what they think I am because I would not not literally be here if one or two other decisions, counter decisions, I could have been totally somewhere else. And I think it's important that I remember that. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day. And Cozy Earth has become a new part of that. Their bedding, it's incredibly soft, like next level soft.

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And they make my morning routine really easy. They've got some great new products I think you'll be interested in. A shampoo, conditioner, and a hair serum. With Caldera Lab, it's not about adding more. It's about choosing better. And when your day demands clarity and energy and presence, the way you prepare for it matters. If you're looking for high-quality personal care products that elevate your routine without complicating it, I'd love for you to check them out. Head to calderalab.com slash findingmastery and use the code code finding mastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash finding mastery. I love how your mind works. I love how you've brought the journey of your life and made it available for others to consider whether it's policy or programs or

decisions that they can make for their own life. And on the decision-making piece, you made decisions that helped you. You made some decisions that hurt you, right? We're all human. How is that not available to every human? Where does that get altered in the environment? So some people are born in certain zip codes and families and genetic coding that is built for flourishing and some that are, you know, that is not. And I just want to complicate the question just a little bit more by saying that nobody's going to reach their potential, whether it's fulfillment in life or achievement, by living in the cocoon of a 71 degree, you know, luxurious home and never venturing to feel the temperature shifting from cold to hot and understanding how to adapt.

And so, so sometimes the best conditions for people to be extraordinary are hard times. And, but I'm not suggesting that it's a necessary condition, you know, for growing up. I'm saying that it is necessary to get into the edges of that when appropriate. Okay. Sometimes it comes too early. So this is a long way of me getting to, how do you wrestle or grok with the idea that you made the decisions to flourish? Some of this depends on your belief system. I realize not everybody believes in God, right? I frankly, gotta be honest. I mean, there just had to be in my life some divine intervention going on because I don't have any reasonable explanation that would ever have suggested I would be successful. I don't. By all metrics, I shouldn't have been. When you think about, you know, as I said, born to a teenage mother, two recovering addicts. What about that would ever say the child that comes from that

is supposed to be successful? Okay. How about this? A person that I work with, so I spend, this is my professional hat. He is, you know, his name, he's influenced the rhythm of music in modern times. When he announces he goes on tour, he sells out in 15 minutes across the planet. And he does, he's done some incredible deep work. And his story is not that different than yours. He will talk about being in the car, watching his parents score together. And they come back like 90 minutes later, barely able to drive. He knows what they're doing. They smell like an SOS Brillo pad and, you know, get in the car completely out of their mind, drive to a place that they kind of call a house, barely. And he's now one of the most influential people in music. So when you hear that,

and you know, plenty of folks that have had hard times that have figured out, figured it out. When you hear that, what comes to mind for you? For me, I do think it can go in either direction. I mean, I'm sure in your profession, you know, plenty of people who have come from similar circumstances who have chosen to emulate what they see. And then there's this other group that decides, you know what? I don't want that. That's you. It is. Well, that's why I said, you know, a little while ago that when I did some research and looked into some of the traits that people who are born to recovering addicts have, it was very similar. And I was actually astounded

by some of the research that showed that there was a lot of that, like this overwhelming deep sense of responsibility, type A personality, method of control. Like, so if you have gone through your life where you have not had any control, and especially, you know, that you're subjugated to somebody's addiction, it will teach you in, you know, the worst ways that whatever happens from here on out, like, this has got to be me calling the shots. I got to be in control of this. And there's something that kicks in that you can't even explain. It's part survival. Most of it is survival, because, you know, you've got to survive. So I would say that that story is like, there was a survival instinct that was probably more pronounced and bigger than they thought that just kicked in. And there is no, I don't know if there's any scientific

or psychological explanation for it. As somebody, I guess, who grew up in a Baptist church, I tend to believe that it has to do mostly with God because I do not know. Is God active or passive for you? So active is like he or it, right? God, the energy wanted us to meet and made that happen. And passive is like, hey, I'm going to get this thing started for you. And it's not really about you. It's about this whole grand thing about the animation of the spirit. And I can pull on that thread, but we won't. But so active or passive? I feel like active because it's a constant belief you have to have, at least for me. Obviously, I'm not speaking for everybody, but it's active for me because I feel like it's still working. You know, everything, it seems sort of kind of almost

dumb to say aloud because I know how some people feel about it, but I really do believe everything happens for a reason. And that reason is not always automatically clear. That reason may be really painful in the short term, but there is something on the other side that you did not see coming. And I'm not going to say that's always positive. What I am going to say is that in my particular case, everything happened for a reason. Everything led me to this point. And so when people ask me, like, oh, do you regret the Donald Trump tweet? No, I don't. Because if that doesn't happen, I'm not sitting here across from you. We're not having this conversation. I'm not able to own my career and business in a way that I never had before. So yeah, if it took for X amount of time, I had a lot of people who wished I was dead. Fine. That's okay. Because it got me to this point. And that is true. There was a lot of people that wished I was dead. Supremacist, white supremacist.

Yes, very much so. But that's all right. I can go through that. And even all those times when I was growing up and wishing for a better life and wishing for a different family and wishing I was totally out of that situation, as painful as that was, knowing it got me to here in this table, I'm all right with it. I wouldn't change any of it. Would not because that might change something intrinsic in my personality. It might change my perspective. It might change my ambition.

It could change a lot of things. So I would never change how I grew up. I would never change any heartbreak I suffered. I would never change any disappointment. As much as if I still think about that TV story now, it would bring me to tears. I can still think about that now, but I'm okay with that because it brought me to here. So that's sort of the perspective. I'm okay with ingesting. Like I'm okay with that. You seem it. And I'll say it again is that I

really appreciate how you use words and string together your thinking patterns. And the patterns that you use are clear. And so your thinking strategies are clear. It's obviously one of your assets, your mind. It's one of your assets. And if we tap into that ability to use your imagination, what do you hope the future, if you could design it, if you could co-design it, okay. Right. Like what, what would you want? What is the vision and the imagination that you hold for a better way of living for us? So I used to be the person that

was on a perennial five-year plan that used to be me. And, um, I, a weird thing happened. It's like the last three, four jobs I have were jobs I never asked for, thought about, wanted, which taught me as the old adage goes, you make plans and God laughs. Right. Never thought I would be getting married. I'm getting married in November. Okay. Uh, I was completely resigned to being, um, you know, a single woman because of those defense mechanisms. I was like, if marriage looks like what I've seen, forget about it. Right. Yeah. So, um, with that being said, I have been really careful about projecting any five-year plans. I am okay for the first time in my life of going by the seat of my pants. I think it's actually kind of cool, you know, because it

allows me to make a lot of decisions without prejudice. You know, of course, you bring your experience and your savvy into it, but I can probably only tell you what the next two years will look like. Can I tell you anything beyond that? And that's cool, you know, because I have spent so much time in my life designing what it will look like, mostly professionally, not really personally. So I'm all right with that. Tell me about your podcast. So the podcast is designed to be what this is interesting conversations with compelling people do not have to agree with them did you just call yourself compelling no i said with compelling people i didn't count myself that was an easy that was

cheap i know i left myself open that was a rip shot i got you sorry yeah um no i just i just want to sit back with people who have really awesome stories to tell, people who have been through some things. I think it's important that people, you know, we, and I'm sure you've experienced this, is like you have a lot of people who you sit down with and everybody wants to hear about their successes. It's kind of like what Drake said, you went with me shooting in the gym, right? When he talked about Kobe. I'm interested in finding out what your process was. What made you into who you are? What defined you? A lot of times it's the failures that define them. It's not the successes. I just had a recently had a conversation with Magic Johnson and I asked him, I was like, Magic, we hear all the time about all these million dollar deals you do. And, you know, he bought into the Dodgers, you know, like everything kind of went crazy with

the Lakers. I said, what's, what's the failure that sticks with you? And he told an incredible story about how, when he, uh, came out of Michigan state, you know, he left after his freshman year, after they won the title in 79. Converse, super cool. Everybody wanted Converse. Dr. J had Converse. He was like, I wanted to be like Dr. J. He's like, but there was this company, small company, didn't have as much clout, but they were offering me stock options. And I didn't know what stock options were. This is him telling me this story. And I was like, yeah, you guys are cool, but Converse is way cooler. And he wanted to be in business with them. That little fledgling company was called Nike. And they offered him a bunch of stock options where had he taken them? As he put it, it probably was, he easily lost out $600, $700 million.

And I understood why he said to this day he's not over that. And we're talking about somebody who's probably easily made a half billion dollars. Reminds me of a story Eddie George told me about Under Armour. When he was with the Titans, rookie, all good, celebrated rookie, making good money. There's a guy that came to him and said, hey, would you give me $1,000 and invest in my company? He created this line of clothing that he had created because he used to do his laundry in his grandmother's house. He lived with his grandmother. He was a dude that you'd be seeing him outside of concerts, sells t-shirts. That was him. Doing his grandmother's laundry, he noticed, this is not to be perverted, but it's true. He noticed that as his grandmother's

underclothes, the material, he's like, man, this material, I can only imagine if you can turn this into athletic gear. He noticed this on her underwear and he did. He turned it into athletic gear. That athletic gear is known as Under Armour. And he asked Eddie George, please put in a thousand dollars. He would have taken a huge percentage of the company. Eddie said, no. He's like, but I tell you what I will do. I'll wear it. He wore it. He got other people on the team to wear it. This dude got everybody else to wear it. Next wore it. He got other people on the team to wear. This dude got everybody else to wear. Next thing you know, this company is worth a billion dollars. And Eddie George missed out on hundreds of millions of dollars for saying no to a thousand, which he clearly had. He just

didn't want to, you know, he didn't want to be taken advantage of. He didn't know what to think. So I say all that to say, you learn much more about people from their failures than you do from their successes. Because I guarantee you any athlete you've ever talked to, to me, the athletes I love are the ones who hate to lose, not the ones who love to win. Those are my favorites because that's how I am. You know, it's like, I don't think about the fact that I've been in the business 21 years or that last year, the National Association of Black Journalists named me Journalist of the Year or all this other stuff. I still think about how when my first job or my last internship in college, which became my first job, I still think about the name I misspelled on the front page story for a story about the anniversary of title

nine. I still think about that story that drives me crazy more than anything. And so to this day, when I do panels or when I write stories, I triple and quadruple check names because I know the embarrassment of having a misspelled name on the front page at a time where the internet wasn't what it is now. You can't just go in and fix it. It was in the printed edition. And as far as I'm concerned, that front page story never counted because I made a mistake. So you have to be sort of driven that way to, I think, to fuel your success. you every single what I perceive to be a failure more so than I can remember any great broadcast I

have any great take I had you know tweet what like I don't even care I'm still thinking about that misspelled name and what are you pursuing what are you searching for or chasing um I think you can't undo the mistake but you're using it to sharpen your sword to be more articulate at this point i'm chasing the best version of myself which is which is sort of like asking me what's infinity mean right it's a never-ending chase it's why i don't play golf but i understand golfer's mentality um People golf knowing they'll never be great. Never is that game is going to kick your ass more times than not, but they chase it. And I find that to be, there's something pure about chasing something that you can never

reach because you'll always strive to be the best. You'll always, that will always be your litmus test. You'll never, that will always be your litmus test. You'll never feel satisfied. If I felt satisfied with anything I've done, I'd be bored, right? So I'm chasing the best version of myself. I just don't know what that is. See if you see how you resonate with this, which is, um, I'm actually chasing the same thing and I've organized my life to, to want to help others do the very same. And the way that I think about that is not by a characteristic or an outcome. It's, it's not, it's not like that for me.

It's my internal ability to be in the present moment and to stitch as many of those together as I can. And when I stitch a bunch of them together, I get glimpses of what's possible for me because it's like the full animation of potential when you're in the present moment and with it. And then that, but that is what athletes call the zone. Technically it's called flow state. It's to be completely present and then to be able to do it in difficult, emotionally, physically, mentally challenging environments. Well, I'm glad you used the word completely present. Um, because I think the things, if I had to, you know, just sitting here thinking about it, as you were saying, I think the things that I take pride in are very little things. I take pride in being able to shut my mind off. I think that's really a brilliant ability to have.

And it's why when I vacation, I always take vacations overseas because I know technologically I'll be limited. And so it's going to force me in a space of having to not just deal with me, but be present. So if I can sit through a dinner with my fiance and never reach for my phone, I feel like I've won the night. I've won the night. He'll tell you that it hasn't happened a lot, but I feel like I've won the night. So I've judged myself by much more smaller things. Like,

am I able to invest in this person? Am I able to, when they call me really be paying a thousand percent attention? Am I being a good friend? Am I being a good friend? Am I being a good daughter? Am I being, you know, a good fiance, right? That's probably the bar for me now, as opposed to, you know, I'm working on a random book now. Is this book going to be a big seller? I don't care. I mean, I care, but I don't really care. I guess I should say I care for the publishing company. I mean, I care, but it's not like, hey, you don't define me and make me think I'm a worse

person. It can never be that. It's going to always be defined by, am I bringing some level of joy, help, perspective to the people I really love. Because you mess around and you get on this ride and you will figure out how neglectful you have been of people. And I never want that to be my reality. And I went through a time, I mean, just probably in the last year where I really felt like I wasn't a very good friend to a lot of people. Not because I didn't listen to them or I wasn't supportive. I wasn't there. I wasn't present, mentally present.

Not always about physically present. Wrapped up in my own thing. And so I'm like, I can't be that. So that's where I judge myself by now. For me, it's the darkest side of the pursuit that I'm on, you know, is the cost to relationships that really do matter to me, but the inability to water them properly. And so for me, that's the darkest side. That's a good word, water them. Yeah.

So, and there's incredible pain on that. You know, the disappointment back to your original word, like it's a disappointment of myself about myself to the people that I care most about. And so, okay. How do you define or articulate or think about the concept of mastery? You know, um, in thinking about it, like, as I was thinking about this interview before I stepped in here and I know that was a big, a big part of it is like thinking about the concept of mastery. I think the concept of mastery is actually not how people think of it. I think the concept for me is steeped, baked in vulnerability. It is showing how much you don't know. I respect people who know what they don't know. I respect people who say, I'm sorry.

I respect people who willingly tell you they are not good at something because it takes a level of mastery to do that. I'm not impressed by people who swear they know how to do everything. I'm impressed by the people who say, who asked for help. So to me, that's real mastery is making yourself vulnerable when you risk the fact that people could think less of you. And that takes a certain amount of courage to do that. Where'd you come up with this definition? It's a unique definition. What you're talking about is not mastery of craft, but mastery of self. Correct.

And I've asked that stock question to all the folks that have been on this podcast. I think probably 90% hedge their answer towards mastery of craft. And very few talk about mastery of self. And, you know, there's a, there's a thin line between the two, but you're squarely in mastery of self evidenced by, you got to figure out how to be vulnerable, which requires risk, which requires courage. And so why, why did you come up with that? Um, because, uh, I realized that in order to be good at the craft, you have to understand and know your limitations and be okay with showing people what they are. I always use this example when I talk to younger journalists.

I think a lot of sports writers, particularly because our culture is so results-driven, and they feel like they're showing some kind of mastery if they predict who wins the finals and in how many games and they're dead on. Nobody cares about predictions. I don't care about predictions. Yeah, fans use them to lord over you and say, oh, this is what you don't know. OK, fine. I don't care about those. I'm more impressed by the reporter who says to a coach, hey, I don't understand this. Can you tell me what this means? Because every time I've been in a situation with a coach or another athlete, I respect the fact they have been doing what they've been doing a lot longer than I've been covering it. And they know it in a way that I don't, even if by standards of society, they aren't particularly good at it by their standards, Right. Because I

realized the amount of time and effort it took to even be average in professional athletics. You know this. So yeah, I can ask Pete Carroll, why didn't you just give the ball to Marshawn Lynch? That doesn't mean I think I'm a better coach than Pete Carroll. He's been asked that before. It's like, yes, me asking that is a critical question. But I would never sit down with Pete Carroll and act like I knew more about football than he did. And a lot of people in my profession, and it isn't just limited to sports politics as well, they sit down with people who've been doing this a long time and they act like they know better. I appreciate the journalists. And I think you find, honestly, much better answers. And for that matter, you get people to tell on themselves more when you go into it with that sign of respect.

And when you go into there, the viewer or reader will identify with you when you tell them up front what you don't know. They respect that. If I'm like, you know what, I'm not going to sit up here and ask Steve Kerr why he couldn't figure out the boxing one with Steph Curry, right? He's a coach. Whatever. What I will, I might ask him is like, were there other ways you felt like you could get Steph Curry more open? That's a different question than me coming in there and saying that. So I appreciate people who are self-aware enough to know what they don't know. And I think there's a mastery that comes with that. It makes you better when you can do that because ego will have you

asking the wrong question. Ego will have you in situations that frankly are probably beneath you. Ego will have you arguing over something stupid and ego will have you not doing what you, what I think is a core tenet of our profession in journalism. We're here to serve the viewer and reader, not ourselves. Ego will have you serving yourself. So ego will always be exposed. And I personally think people who are great and masterful at this job are people who go into it with a sense of humility. That's why that's important for me. I love all of this. I love every part of it. So if you let's, um, as we're rounding out our time together, I'm curious about your favorite question and it's not, it's not that easy, right? Like I don't want to box you into a way like

you have a favorite question because it really is a storyline and an arc that you walk somebody through. That being said, this is a two part question, which is if there's a person you're on a stranded Island, if there's one person you can spend some time with, like that you haven't been able to spend time with, or maybe go back to, you know, who would that person be? And if you only had one question you could ask them, what would that question be? As much as, as tempting as it is to say Oprah or Beyonce, I'm going to actually say my grandmother, because as I mentioned, I'm writing a book now. It's a memoir. It's the one book I didn't want to write, which was about me. But I'm writing it.

But I told him if I write this, you're going to have to let me do it my way, which is as a multi-generational story because it's beyond more than just me. So it's about me, my grandmother, and my mother, our relationship that was loving but defective. So I say all that to say I realized as I was thinking about this book, and certainly now that I'm writing it, is how much I didn't know and how much I took for granted. We were very close. Our birthdays are one day apart. She's December 22nd, I'm December 21st. But much like most children who are very selfish about, you know, your existence in the sense like, you know, your kids, you take, take, take. You don't even fully understand your parents or

grandparents are actual people. It takes a while. You're like, oh, they had a life before me. Yes, they did. And it was probably one that you never expected. I wish I would have asked her more about who she was because the person I'm finding out who she was now and it was that case then is so fascinating and so compelling that if I could just spend one more day, I'd have a list of 900 questions I would ask her. Like, I don't even know how she met my grandfather. I have no idea. And she was such an independent woman. She was married three times, but she wound up with literally the worst man you could think of. And I don't know how that happens. And I want to know this is that what is this vulnerability that was in you that drew that?

Because there was something as confident, as assured, as tough as you always appear to be. It was something I didn't get. And I would love to figure out what that was. So that's the person I probably most wish I could talk to right now is her. And where do you feel this sentiment in your body now? Oh, well, I mean, yeah, I mean, I feel it probably, I guess, in my heart, most importantly, because as I'm thinking about it, because I'm just thinking about all the questions I wish I could have asked her. Yeah, I mean, there was so much about, you know, her life I didn't know. I mean, she came up during a time where it was not uncommon to how many women, especially many black women, you know, from the South, from Kentucky, um, pain was not something they were supposed to experience. And she experienced a lot.

She hit it well, you know, as I told you, I was taught to survive, taught to survive by two women who knew how to hide pain well. And so you sort of begin thinking that that is just how it's supposed to happen, but there was a lot more going on there. And I just wish I would have, uh, I was a, probably the shittiest journalist with my own grandmother. I wish I had to learn better to ask her certain questions because I should have. What, um, well, it sounds like you're going to use it. Yeah. No, no, I will. I mean, deconstruct and figure it out. But can you remember a time where somebody said something to you and it changed you and there's going to be a part two to that question in a moment okay

uh where it changed me um well Well, you know, I remember the crazy thing is I do come from a pretty religious family, right? So my mother, she took me to church with her, you know, one time and there was a gas preacher and, you know, he was sort of going around the room and he was saying these prophecies on different people and uh he looked at me and he told me I was going to be a world traveler I mean I think I was in my early 20s and he told my mother it was like she's gonna grade you early like you're gonna spend a lot of time praying for her and he didn't say it because he thought I was going to be some kind of problem. Mostly because I think he knew her PTSD and, you know, just me being her only child, her natural instinct to hold me closer than I wanted to be. Because the one thing I'm not real good at is good with is being smothered.

And so it's a mother's natural instinct, especially early child, especially being what, you know, considering what she had been to that she, you know, her pension was to draw me close. And he was just saying like, you have, you have raised somebody who is probably more furiously independent than you understand. And it's going to cause you a lot of problems because of what you have to internally deal with. So I remember him saying that. And I was like, oh, what is he talking about? And sure enough, I have seen parts of this world I never would have dreamed.

I've always had an adventurous spirit. I've always had a wandering spirit. And so for me to have been to as many countries I've been through and for me to choose this profession, it was just like, I get it now. And every time I leave the country, I swear, my mother acts like I'm going off to war. I was like, I'm coming back. Plenty of people have gone to Cancun and returned. It's okay. They've gone and returned. It's all right. It's not that, you know, so having been to some of the places I've been, it's just like really remarkable. But yeah, I know I just sort of will never forget that just

because it was actually true. And, um, I think what he was trying to prepare her for is like, I have a restlessness in me that is, um, you know, that is interesting. I think it lends itself to the profession I'm in. Cause you have to have a certain amount of restlessness, but one of the most comfortable places I am as an airport. I love airports who loves airports, right? Only insane people love airports. I'm not co-signing. Yeah, I do. I love airports. I love it because it reminds me – one of my favorite romantic comedies is Love Actually. And as Hugh Grant says in it, like you never see anybody pissed off at the airport, do you? I mean other than if they're pissed off that their flight is canceled. But when people greet each other, like you never see this.

So it's actually one of the craziest places where you can see an intense display of love that you never see anywhere else in our society. They come, you know, when you walk through that door, it's people with signs. It's like, yo man, this like never happens anywhere else. I love the airport. Great place to waste time. I'm going to look for that differently. Okay. So part two of the question was if there was a belief that you could install in the next generation and you could think about a specific sector of people or all young people, what would you want to install? Empathy. It's what our society has been totally sucked of empathy. And it's really quite tragic because I don't, I think this is generational.

Like, I don't think it's like something only older people have. I think young people too, especially because, you know, I'm a technology immigrant, you know, we both probably are, and they have been raised with this, raised with social media and their concept of empathy is so awful because they're used to seeing, you know, violence and all these other things betrayed and acted out by real people. Like that's what they consume. And so I think it makes them much, um, it makes them cold. I mean, this is a cold generation. We probably do not realize this is what's happening, but we are. Because, you know, when you read about the degree of bullying and how it occurs on social media and especially seeing, you know, sort of a recent spate of cases where like really young people, 10, 11, taking their lives. You know, the rate of suicide in young people, 18 to 25 is just skyrocketing. And I know a lot of people are like, what could you

be so unhappy about at that age? But while I don't think I was ever mentally there, I get it because they're all on social media and it feels so important to them. So I couldn't imagine pairing my already teenage Molly Ringwald hormones with social media and seeing what a destructive cocktail that would be. It's a really cool wish, you know, to want to install. And as you would recognize that social media does a couple of things. One is it distances from the consequence. So you remember times when if someone said, well, this is my experience. So if someone were to say your mama, like those are fighting yo i said your mama i said this the school might know all right maybe we fight at three who knows right like you said there was some conclusion happening right and then it's done these days when you see kids say that and then a whole school district knows then literally all the teenagers in that neighborhood know all the teenagers in that city and their parents know. And so suddenly it goes from just being an insult traded between two people to it being a real life

things. And especially when you're talking about, you know, um, kids sharing pictures of each other and like all kinds of stuff and the consequences of what they do, they're so oblivious to, but it has such real weight in real life. And here's the second part of it. I'm nodding my head. And then here's the second part is that when we, not just them, but when we're on social media, there's a buzz that we get. There's a neurochemical exchange, adrenaline, dopamine, and serotonin that our body loves those. Anything that ends with IN or INE, our body craves cocaine, heroin, methamphetamine. I never thought about that. Yeah. Our body loves those neurochemicals. So cocaine turns into dopamine, right? And so, okay, back to the point is that we get these little buzzes from the anticipation of what

we're going to see next, who likes us, what's being said about us or others. And there's a little hit that happens, but we don't get oxytocin. Oxytocin is the cuddle chemical. It's the chemical that you get after lovemaking, after intimacy, when a baby is born, mothers produce an incredible amount of oxytocin. So it's the chemical that binds us. And so guess what's happening? We're getting lots of hits of adrenaline and the roots of cocaine and methamphetamine, but we're not getting anything that brings intimacy or closeness. So how can we be empathetic?

Because we're not close. So we're actually missing in the repetitions to develop oxytocin, which is the precursor to compassion and a precursor to, and compassion is a precursor to empathy. So you can't have empathy, which is sharing what you feel and think another person might be experiencing, sharing that with them. Compassion means that, or by definitions, you actually have to feel what they might be feeling. And so you're spot on with like a real trap that we're running towards. And it's, it's a bit scary. No, we don't have any. And it's, um, uh, it's, it's, it's kind of, um, I mean, sad isn't even the word that covers it I just think it's historically

when I think about 20 years from now and this has happened in literally every point in history we were having a conversation earlier me and some other people about the people in those photos that we've all seen from the civil rights movement or even

Vietnam and pre like the people who are arguing on the wrong side even Vietnam and Vietnam and pre like the people who are arguing on the wrong side of history and what they look like you know when you see think about the the little girls and Little Rock who integrated the high school and all the adults that are yelling and spitting on them and I often wonder what are they thinking now because some of them are still alive like are you looking at this photo and understanding that your lack of empathy 20 years from now is going to make you seem like a literal monster? I love this. My wife and I talk about this all the time, that as we try to, humans, as we try to explain events in our lives, rarely do we take the position of being the villain. That's so true, right? Like really? So there's this mechanism,

this internal mechanism that humans have where we rationalize and make sense why, you know, and so those that can actually move that clutter away, the story that is not true, but serving a purpose, when we can move that away and get to the truth, then those people that are spitting and yelling in vile tone, you know, to the young, young girls getting on the, they were integrating into high school is that when they can get through and say, you know what? I was wrong. I was flat out.

Like I look at that picture and I think that, man, how did I go so wrong? Those people have a chance. Right. So, but it requires to your point, many of the characteristics that you've displayed in this conversation, humility, vulnerability, honesty, courage, an appetite for risk and appreciation for the truth. And so those are not rare. They're available to everybody, but those that actually express them and exercise them, that's where it becomes rare. Yeah. I mean, it is. Yeah. I mean, I can list off a number of opinions and thought processes I had, you know, as a teenager, um, that are just so wrong under today's light. I mean, I think most of us can probably think about how maybe 20, 25 years ago,

we were talking about the LGBTQ community and that's what, you know, I mean, we, the level of, of just misunderstanding, hatred, um, disdain that we had for that community when I was growing up was widely accepted and tolerated. And it was totally fashionable to use slurs. Like it was completely fashionable to do it. And as they say, what usually changes you is that when someone close to you or you have to go through some personal experience, that changes you. But I have come to sort of realize and think that it shouldn't have to take that to do it. And I think that's a big reason why we lack a lot of empathy now is like unless people go through that personally they can't have it and I'd like to think I would have evolved um regardless but the truth of the matter is is like what spurred my evolving is that I had two very close friends who came out to me and so it wasn't until that happened that I was able to completely change and

switch my perspective and yeah I will forever be ashamed that it took that. And I constantly replay those conversations I had with one of them in particular before they came out. And I was like, I don't even know why you even told me after all the things that I said, but they did. And it totally changed a lot of things. I'm not saying it was overnight, but what I am saying is that it definitely got me to a different place of growth. But unfortunately unfortunately that's really not the case now.

Yeah. Pain is the reason people change and it's a, it's a very private experience, you know? And so it, that part is unfortunate. It doesn't mean that we can't help people feel pain even in conversations like this to feel like, Oh, what have I done? And I don't want to do that. So in that vein, how would you help white men? Okay. And so African-American female, Caucasian male in this conversation, where are people going so wrong in the understanding of the other gender and the other race? And there's multiple genders and multiple races at this point in our lives. So, but for the two of us right now. I think the biggest mistake is I think there is an expectation by white men that we want you to apologize.

And apology is different than acknowledgement. And I think what often pisses off women and certainly people of color, and I happen to be both as a black woman, what pisses us off is the lack of interest. It's like, I don't want to come to work or wherever and play, teach a white dude about some history he should already know. Because the reality is that most of us have to learn larger history of America, of the world. Like I know about George Washington. Can you tell me about George Washington Carver though? See what I'm saying? It's like, it's not reciprocated. It's that we have to teach as well as, you know, be responsible for all racial reconciliation. So it gets frustrating because the people most oppressed and burdened by the weight of misogyny, racism, sexism, homophobia, white supremacy, are also then tasked with solving the problem.

And it's like, hold up. I didn't create this problem, but I got to solve it too. And I got to teach you along the way. We get angry real fast. So what I would say is to, you know, white men, white people is that before you try to engage in a racial conversation, I need you to read some things. I need you to know about the wider scope of history and understand that while I mean, slavery clearly abhorrent lasted 400 years, but do understand how racism keeps reinventing itself. It just stopped there. Then it went to Jim Crow. Then it went, like,

it has gone through so many iterations. I was in mass incarceration. It keeps reinventing itself. So do understand how all those things link together before we can have a conversation. I don't want to have to enter it thinking I have to teach you everything. I want you to actually come having been curious and frankly, having wanting to desire enough to help solve this problem that you're willing to do some of the legwork. If you are, we can have some great exchanges because I know that there's a lot of white people who feel like they're being blamed for everything. And especially as politically, there's more conversations about reparations. But there's just basic things about history and slavery that they need to understand. It's like slavery was the American economy that led to it being a superpower.

This is not an emotional statement. This is a fact. It did. And as a result, though you may not have enslaved people personally, I guarantee you, you go far enough in your history, you see the lineage of wealth and about how if we were denied a lot of basic rights, a lot of basic things, like even the GI Bill, people don't know black people weren't allowed to have that. When you go down the history, you understand where that conversation is coming from. That doesn't mean you agree with it being done, but do understand why they're having the conversation. So for me, that's just really it.

It's just really an interest and a willingness to know, because there are a lot of things I don't understand or didn't understand about the LGBTQ community, the trans community. I've had to learn. Like I just learned literally in the last three weeks, the journalist in me always wants to say transgendered, right? It's just transgender. It's no ED, but I, because I feel like it's grammatically wrong. Like that's just the English nerd in me always wants to say transgendered, right? It's just transgender. It's no ED, but I, because I feel like it's grammatically wrong. Like that's just the English nerd in me. And then I had someone from that community explained to me that transgendered has actually been used as a slur. And I got it because I'm not going into anybody's community trying to prove I knew more than them. I'm there to learn and to be a fly in

the wall. I am not there to offer whatever completely baseless opinion I have on what you have experienced. And what people of color and women often find is that people who have not lived the experience got a whole lot to say about how that experience is. And they come not armed with a lot of knowledge, just emotion of not wanting to be blamed and not wanting to feel guilty. It's like, we don't want your guilt. We just want your acknowledgement and acceptance of what has happened and to do this hard work with us to help solve it. Don't leave it to us. Racism is not a black problem or a brown problem. It is a everybody's problem. It is costing us all. So that's generally where my frustration lies is that it's just, it ain't all hands on deck. It's a lot of people real comfortable

with it being the way that it is. What a great way to end this conversation. Like, thank you. No, thank you. This is great. I mean, this is definitely going to be one of those conversations that, you know, stick out in my mind. I've done a lot of different podcasts, a lot of different interviews. But I'm not just telling you this because you're sitting across from me, but this is definitely one of the more memorable and special ones. Thank you. Well, we co-created that.

Maybe with some help from others. So thank you for your time. Thank you for your eloquence. And where can people find you when they want to buy your book? Well, I'm real easy to find on social media. Just my first and last name. Nothing tricky. I have a podcast on Spotify.

Mondays and Thursdays it drops. And I write for The Atlantic. So you can go to Atlantic.com and search my name and my drivel will come up. Great. Thank you again. Thank you. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us.

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