Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - John Brenkus, Producer, Director, TV Personality

Episode Date: October 31, 2018

This week’s conversation is with John Brenkus, who has spent the last decade studying and popularizing the unique characteristics of the world’s greatest athletes.A co-founder of BASE Productions, he is best known as the on-air host, co-creator and executive producer of ESPN’s Emmy Award-winning show Sport Science, appearing in and producing over 1500 segments that have been featured on ABC and ESPN's enormous sports platform.John has been featured in coverage of The Super Bowl, Monday Night Football, the NBA Finals, Sunday Night Baseball, and The Masters just to name a few.Through Sport Science, John has appeared before 80 million people annually for the last decade, has won 6 Emmys, and has written a New York Times Best Seller "The Perfection Point."When John has an idea he goes for it.It makes sense then, that his philosophy is to: “Make something out of nothing.”In this conversation we discuss what gives him the confidence to go for it and not let a fear of failure get in the way of pursuing his dreams._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Finding Mastery is brought to you by Remarkable. In a world that's full of distractions, focused thinking is becoming a rare skill and a massive competitive advantage. That's why I've been using the Remarkable Paper Pro, a digital notebook designed to help you think clearly and work deliberately. It's not another device filled with notifications or apps.

It's intentionally built for deep work. So there's no social media, no email, no noise. The writing experience, it feels just like pen on paper. I love it. And it has the intelligence of digital tools like converting your handwriting to text, organizing your notes, tagging files, and using productivity templates

to help you be more effective. It is sleek, minimal. It's incredibly lightweight. It feels really good. I take it with me anywhere from meetings to travel without missing a beat. What I love most is that it doesn't try to do everything. It just helps me do one very important thing really well,

stay present and engaged with my thinking and writing. If you wanna slow down, if you wanna work smarter, I highly encourage you to check them out. Visit remarkable.com to learn more and grab your paper pro today. When I feel like one of my strengths is, is making something out of nothing. So that oasis that I see down there is actually, it's, it's actually there. The tree is there. The water is there. I just need to keep running after it. And when you feel like you're never going to get there, I'm like, I'm so stubborn. And I'm so, I believe in myself. I believe in my cause. I believe in, I'll get there. I don't know how

long it's going to take me. I don't know how many twists and turns, but I'm going to, that water exists. All right. Welcome back or welcome to the Finding Mastery podcast. I am Michael Gervais and by trade and training, I'm a sport and performance psychologist, as well as the co-founder of Compete to Create. And I'd love for you to go check out some of the work that we're doing over there. It's been a blast. And the whole idea behind the conversations in this podcast is to learn from people who are on the path of mastery, to better understand what they're searching for, what they ache for,

what they're craving. We want to understand how they're searching for, what they ache for, what they're craving. We want to understand how they're making sense of their world, events in the world themselves and people. And we also want to understand the mental skills that they've used to build and refine their craft. Finding Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Solutions. In any high-performing environment that I've been part of, from elite teams to executive boardrooms, one thing holds true. Meaningful relationships are at the center of sustained success. And building those relationships, it takes more than effort. It takes a real caring about your people. It takes the right tools, the right information at the right time. And that's

where LinkedIn Sales Navigator can come in. It's a tool designed specifically for thoughtful sales professionals, helping you find the right people that are ready to engage, track key account changes, and connect with key decision makers more effectively. It surfaces real-time signals, like when someone changes jobs or when an account becomes high priority, so that you can reach out at exactly the right moment with context and thoroughness that builds trust. It also helps tap into your own network more strategically, showing you who you already know that can help you open doors or make a warm introduction.

In other words, it's not about more outreach. It's about smarter, more human outreach. And that's something here at Finding Mastery that our team lives and breathes by. If you're ready to start building stronger relationships that actually convert, try LinkedIn Sales Navigator for free for 60 days at linkedin.com slash deal. That's linkedin.com slash deal for two full months for free terms and conditions apply. Fighting Mastery is brought to you by David Protein. I'm pretty intentional about what I eat and the majority of my nutrition comes from whole foods. And when I'm traveling or in between meals on a demanding day, certainly, I need something quick that will support the way that I feel and think and perform. And that's why I've been leaning

on David Protein Bars. And so has the team here at Finding Mastery. In fact, our GM, Stuart, he loves them so much. I just want to kind of quickly put them on the spot. Stuart, I know you're listening. I think you might be the reason that we're running out of these bars so quickly. They're incredible, Mike. I love them. One a day, one a day. What do you mean one a day? There's way more than that happening here. Don't tell. Okay. All right. Look, they're incredibly simple. They're effective. 28 grams of protein, just 150 calories and zero grams of sugar. It's rare to find something that fits so conveniently into a performance-based lifestyle and actually tastes good. Dr. Peter

Attia, someone who's been on the show, it's a great episode by the way, is also their chief science officer. So I know they've done their due diligence in that category. My favorite flavor right now is the chocolate chip cookie dough. And a few of our teammates here at Finding Mastery have been loving the fudge brownie and peanut butter. I know, Stuart, you're still listening here. So getting enough protein matters. And that can't be understated, not just for strength, but for energy and focus, recovery, for longevity. And I love that David is making that easier. So if you're trying to hit your daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery.

That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash finding mastery. Now this week's conversation is with John Brankus and you've probably heard his name. If you're in the sport world, he spent the last decade plus studying and popularizing the unique characteristics of the world's greatest athletes. So behind the scenes where you might not know his work, He's the co-founder of Bass Productions, but he's best known for his on-air host and co-creator of the ESPN Emmy award-winning show called Sports Science. And he's appeared and produced in over 1,500 segments. That's an enormous catalog. And those segments have been featured on ABC and ESPN's enormous sport platforms.

So through Sports Science, the show, John has appeared before over 80 million people annually for the last decade. I mean, that's a big time imprint. And so he's won six Emmys and he's written a New York Times bestseller for The Perfection Point, where he really takes a look at where's human potential, where's the convergence of human potential from where we might be able to go and where we are now. And in that vein, when he's got an idea, he just goes for it. He just flat out puts it on the line. And it makes sense as we dig into this conversation that his philosophy is perfectly aligned with the extraordinary success he's had. And so his philosophy is to make something out of nothing. And it's basically been a backbone for how he's created what he's created in the sport and television world.

So in this conversation, we discuss what gives him the confidence to go for it and to not let fear of failure, fear of what other people think of him, to get in the way of him pursuing his dreams. And I love this conversation. I love how his mind works, what he's created. I've loved being a friend with John. And so this is not just about sport by any means. It's not about human potential. It's about the practices and the organization of thoughts to help him, a la you now, become your very best. So with that, let's jump right into this conversation

with John Brinkus. John, how are you? I'm incredible. I'm just awesome. Today, I feel great. And that's just kind of how I roll. I roll out of bed and I feel awesome. How long has that been the case for you? Is that a lifelong thing? Or is this since you've done incredible things in the industry? This is just how I roll. I mean, to be honest with you, it's a struggle to get me out of bed. But once I'm out and I'm on my two feet, I'm great.

And I use that word specifically where I'm incredible. I'm alive. I'm breathing. I use that word specifically where I'm incredible. I'm alive. I'm breathing. I'm ready to conquer the day. Like that's that, that is how, when everyone's like, how do you feel? I'm like, awesome, incredible, amazing. If I'm sick, I'll say I don't feel so well, but I'm healthy and I feel great. Does that mean you're, is it your body? Is it your emotional self? Is it your mental self? Is it your spiritual? Like when you say I'm great, how do you slice that? Or how do you think about that?

I slice that mostly spiritually. Like I I'm spiritually in a great place today. Like I'm spiritually, I feel good. And by spiritually, I mean, I feel centered. I feel, um, in touch with the universe. And I feel like I've got a purpose today. Like I know what I'm doing. I'm going to, I have a plan for today. It won't go as planned and I'm ready to Bob and weave. Okay. So spirit spirit, we're diving right into the to the heavy rocks absolutely so the spiritual stuff is that for and purpose okay you put those two in the same in the same phrase are they the same or

different for you between spiritual and purpose yeah like so you could talk about being spiritually centered and then having purpose i believe that we separate them and we say you can be spiritual, but with no purpose and you can be purposeful without any spirit, right? So to me, they need to be fused together. And when I wake up, I do fuse. The first thing that I do is I pray. I wake up, I kneel down, I pray and I pray and I set an intention for the day. And I'm like, here's what's going to go on.

I pray. I do my best. I, you know, really feel as though I am capable of doing that. And I believe that my purpose today is to perpetuate positive energy. So whatever the, the task is that I'm doing, my purpose is to perpetuate positive energy. And I, I do pray for the strength that that happens. What pulls you out of that? Pulls me out of perpetuating positive energy. What pulls you away from that? Myself, thought loops. I pull myself out of it. I'll pull myself

out of the game, I like to call it, where I'll have a negative thought loop and I'm such an A type personality and I'm so go, go, go, go, go. Lizzie, my wife calls me Johnny One Speed. I'm like, go, go, go, go, go, go, stop. And where I will get off center is purely self-inflicted. It's a complete, I'm such a high strung individual. And I'm so like, we're going to do this. I will get a thought in my head that where I'm like, Oh my God, I can't get this thought out of my head. And I can't get it out of my head. It's like having the yips when, when you're putting, you just can't get it out of your head. And that happens. And I have really intentionally, especially I'm 46 now, I've really tried to identify thought loops and say, wow, this is an unhealthy thought loop. And I am putting too much emphasis on the negative outcome than the positive outcome. They're both equally likely to happen. And I've got to get out of that. And that's it.

I think that's going to be a lifelong, I think it's a lifelong struggle for everybody. It'll be a lifelong struggle for me, but it's happening less and less. So I feel each day, each week, each month, each year, I make progress on getting out of those negative thought loops. And for you, are those loops about doubt? Is it about self-critique? There's only a couple of themes that come up, right? Is it like, or is it anxiousness? I'm not sure if it's going to work out. The loop really centers around really things that are out of my control, the behavior of somebody else. That's where I get hung up on a loop there. Unfortunately, especially in the business that I've worked in, I mean, there are some

obviously amazing, incredible people that I work with and people I really love to work with. And then there are just, you feel like you're walking through a minefield and you're like, those mines are people and those people could really throw a wrench in things. And that's where the loops happen is my extrapolation of what could happen if this person gets in the way and is going to do this, which leads to that and which leads to that. So I just had this conversation today as we were getting, as I was driving in to connect with you and my wife made that comment. She said, you know, there's people that purposely get in the way of other people's success. And I go, come on, like, and she goes, Mike, please. And you're, you're saying the same thing. And I know that my rational head says, yes, there are bad, evil, disruptive people that, you know, but you're say is a strength, is my ability to extrapolate.

So I'll say, I'm able to look at a landscape and say, here's what I think is going to happen. And I've been, when I say, I'm right more than I'm wrong. And of course, you remember the things that you're right at more than you're wrong. It's a good bias. Right. So I know that, oh, I'm biased. But when I sit back and I go, here's what's going to happen. This person's going to talk to that person and that person's going to flip out.

Then they're going to go talk to this person and the game of telephone is going to happen. And what happened in the origination of the conversation will be so completely out of whack that we're having a completely different argument than we would have if we had just nipped it in the bud and it had never happened to begin with. Like, like more often than not, I'm like, I'm correct on, on, but I need to be more comfortable with realizing it's okay that that happens rather than being worried that, oh man, here it goes again. I need to be more bring it on. I've seen it a million times. Okay. You were ahead of the game in the U S figuring out what sports science was. And so sports science has been around for a long time.

And when I say long, I'm talking about 60 years. Right. And the idea that the Russians and Germans were doing some heavy stuff in science long ago. Okay. But the American influence was late. Right. You started a show called sports science on ESPN. It started on Fox. It started on Fox. Right. You started a show called Sport Science on ESPN.

It started on Fox. It started on Fox. Okay. When you think of your craft, what is your craft? It's an awesome question. And I'm going to tell you what I believe my craft actually is. My craft is making something out of nothing. That is what my craft is. My craft is making something out of nothing. That is what my craft is.

I am the kind of person that loves to say, why not? And when we made sports science, my business partner, who's also my brother-in-law, he and I sat back and we were in the right place at the right time doing the right thing. Literally, our production company had a sports background and a science background. And when we put it together, I mean, how boring of a title is sports science? I mean, when we sold it to Fox, they were like, we got to change the name. And I insisted that we keep the name because although sports science existed, that term, it really wasn't part of our lexicon in even 2006. People weren't referring to it all the time. It wasn't something that was at people's fingerstep, even though obviously it existed way before we even thought of the show.

But I'm like, nah, I can't think of anything else that's on television that's like it. So call it what it is. I'm like, Survivor, what a great title. Call it what it is. You can try to come up with some fancy name that's nuanced, but if you're direct and just tell the audience, this is what you're going to get. Then when they arrive, if they're entertained and educated at the same time, they're going to stay. And then all of a sudden, those words, sports science, are cool. It's not nerdy, geeky science. It's entertaining and educational. So it was very deliberate in terms of sitting back and saying, we're just at that.

In 2006, there was hardly anything you could buy off the shelf to measure anything. We were fashioning our own sensors, piecing things together. And I really would like to think that obviously we didn't create this space, but we played a part in popularizing it and making it known and people in using it in a lexicon more and more. Yeah, for sure. And it is something that is obviously your fingers on the pulse of pro sports and even NCAA or collegiate sports, like sports science. It's been in European models for a long time, but in the US it's just past the beginnings, you know, just past the beginnings, like still in adolescence, but you've definitely had an influence in, you know, the, the lexicon having meaning.

Okay. And then before that, this is when I first was attracted to your work. Fight science was, was a show that you produced. Yes. And so when you say your craft, I want to talk about fight science in a minute, but you said your craft is building something from nothing. Yes. Okay. And that something, when you say nothing, do you mean like the resources are barren or the ideas are barren? I'd like to say it's a blank canvas. It's just a blank canvas.

Like what show are you going to do next? What are you as a person? What are you going to do next? It's just a blank canvas. Like what show are you going to do next? What, what are you as a person? What are you going to do next? It's just this blank canvas and fight science came from another show that was called XMA that was on the discovery channel. And it was, it's kind of a, it was kind of a fight science light. Um, but it did very well on the Discovery Channel. And when we had to reinvent it and start to make something, it was again, my partner and I sat down and we said, you know what would be really cool is if we took the science aspect and blew it out, just like went to the max. And that was if we get the world's greatest martial artists to come and punch and kick the crap out of a crash test dummy, I mean, it's not even built to do that.

How do we modify it and give people an image that they haven't even imagined in their heads? That's building something out of nothing. That's saying, God, let's do something you have not seen before. That's what I'd like to do. And that's what I, in terms of being creative and just even in daily life, I like to say it's a blank canvas and I'm going to make something out of nothing. So to answer your question, I think it's kind of, I don't think it's that the ideas, it's like, oh, a nothing idea. It's that it doesn't exist in the world right now. Okay.

So that's what I was hoping that you would take the conversation to. Where do your ideas come from? Which is really tough question. And I don't expect to have a full answer on it because it's probably one of the hard questions for humans. Where do thoughts and ideas originate or happen and how does that work? Yeah. I don't expect to have a full answer on it because it's probably one of the hard questions for humans. Where do thoughts and ideas originate or happen and how does that work? But for you, if you take a pass at it, you've been a disruptive agent in television, the space between science and sport and action and entertainment. So maybe we can be more granular. Where did the ideas for fight science come from? It came from, it really was marrying the two skill sets that we had

developed, um, in producing sports and producing science. I mean, literally that come from that. I'm going to take sport and science and put those two together. So that originated with this show XMA extreme martial arts. So we had as a production company, we had the contracts for the Washington wizards and Washington capitals, and we're doing all of their sports production. Then we got a bunch of other teams as well. So we had this expertise in producing sports content. Then the discovery channel was launching the science channel. and we did the first live interactive science programs called Science Live. We did the Young Scientist Challenge. We did a bunch of shows that were all just purely science-based shows.

My partner and I were like, wow, you know what would be really cool is to combine these two things. And there was a conversation that my partner had with the GM of Discovery at the time. And he was talking about how all these great masters of martial arts are fading away and we need to somehow preserve it and honor it. And then Mickey, my partner, and I sat down and I said, you know what? This would be a perfect application of taking a scientific look at what the masters were able to do. And that's where we were like, oh, we could do this. It had never been an idea until someone's like, we need to honor these martial arts masters. I'm like, you can honor it through science and say, well, what did they do? What made them a master? What differentiated

a style? That was really the beginning of it. And then fight science took it to a whole other level where we're like, now which style generates more force and why? What does a kinetic linking chain mean? And where is the energy being drawn? And where is the weakness in the style in terms of generating force through the end of your fingers or the end of your toes? Like where would the blocking occur? You start getting really granular into it. And I'm like, this is some fascinating stuff that I haven't seen broke down before. So when that door opens.

Well, you know what was interesting? It was in the laboratory, which I'm sure that either you or your brother-in-law, I'm not sure which one had the sports science background or influence. It really honestly was both of us. And he and I, I'm a science geek. He's a science geek. And we're both sports nuts. Yeah, there you go. It was a great combination.

So all that stuff was happening in the laboratory. And I don't know if enough people that might be listening, know what a kinetic chain is. So can you walk them through that? I mean, it's pretty simple, but sure. I mean, it's pretty simple. You think about it as the perfect kinetic chain would be a whip, right? Your hand is the fulcrum and you're flicking the whip forward. You're stopping your hand. All the energy is being transferred to the end of the whip. It's a perfect transfer of energy because the tip of the whip, when it cracks, is actually breaking the sound barrier. That's what the sound is, is it's actually breaking the sound barrier. So a kinetic leaking chain, if you think about a punch, the energy is created from the ground,

just like a whip. It goes up through your legs and through your hips and your torsos and your shoulder and ultimately down through your hand. But it's a chain. And when you look at someone and say, how can they throw a ball so hard? And they're the same size as I am. And I can't throw it that hard. It's because there are points in your kinetic chain where the energy is being blocked. And it's as simple as that. But when you start diving deep into finding these little tweaks in emotion as to how you can unblock it or reduce the amount that it's being blocked, it's amazing how performance can be increased. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentus.

When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday, what you put in your body matters. And that's why I trust Momentus. From the moment I sat down with Jeff Byers, their co-founder and CEO, I could tell this was not your average supplement company. And I was immediately drawn to their mission, helping people achieve performance for life. And to do that, they developed what they call the Momentus Standard.

Every product is formulated with top experts and every batch is third-party tested, NSF certified for sport or informed sport. So you know exactly what you're getting. Personally, I'm anchored by what they call the Momentus 3, protein, creatine, and omega-3. And together, these foundational nutrients support muscle recovery, brain function, and long-term energy. They're part of my daily routine. And if you're ready to fuel your brain and body with the best, Momentous has a great new offer just for our community right here. Use the code FINDINGMASTERY for 35% off your first subscription order at livemomentous.com.

Again, that's L-I-V-E, Momentous, M-O-M-E-N-T-O-U-S, livemomentous.com, and use the code FindingMastery for 35% off your first subscription order. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Felix Gray. I spent a lot of time thinking about how we can create the conditions for high performance. How do we protect our ability to focus, to recover, to be present? And one of the biggest challenges we face today is our sheer amount of screen time. It messes with our sleep, our clarity, even our mood. And that's why I've been using Felix Grey glasses. What I appreciate most about Felix Grey is that they're just not another wellness product. They're rooted in real science. Developed alongside leading researchers and ophthalmologists, they've demonstrated these types of glasses boost melatonin, help you fall asleep faster, and hit deeper stages of rest. When I'm on the road

and bouncing around between time zones, slipping on my Felix Grey's in the evening, it's a simple way to cue my body just to wind down. And when I'm locked into deep work, they also help me stay focused for longer without digital fatigue creeping in. Plus, they look great. Clean, clear, no funky color distortion. Just good design, great science. And if you're ready to feel the difference for yourself, Felix Gray is offering all Finding Mastery listeners 20% off. Just head to FelixGray.com and use the code FINDINGMASTERY20 at checkout.

Again, that's Felix Gray. You spell it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com and use the code findingmastery20 at felixgray.com for 20% off. So what are a couple insights that you've had? You know, that what have some of the best done? What I see is most importantly, there is no one right answer. I wrote a book called The Perfection Point. It was, you know, that anybody can find. It was New York Times bestseller about what is the best we can do as a human being. What's the fastest we can run, the hardest we can throw a ball, the highest we could jump. But when you sit back and you look at the best and you put them under a microscope, you realize, well, we're well, we can't reach perfection. So all we can do is do the best with what we have. And that definition of what we have starts at a very early age. How do you throw a ball when you're three. And that, when people say it's muscle memory, there's no such thing as

muscle memory. Muscles don't have memory, right? It's just neural pathways that have been burned and it's more neural memory in terms of a physical motion. But the best of the best make the most of what they have and they're cool with that, but they're not satisfied. They're like, well, how do I get better without reinventing the wheel? How do I get better with what I actually have? And that desire to get better and that realizing this is what I got is really what the best identified. They don't say, well, here's where I am and I'm going to stop. They're like, here's where I am. How do I get better? But I can't reinvent the wheel. Okay. And then you've also taken a look at swaths of data. And just before the mics turned on,

you were talking about running backs. And so that's a fascinating finding that you have. Walk us through that. So people like to say bigger, stronger, faster is better. If I'm the, I say, don't be fooled by that. I mean, obviously if you're running a hundred yard dash or a hundred meter dash, obviously you have to be the fastest. Like, so we can, but that's not the analogy for life. I like to say that this is an analogy for life and football is a great analogy for life. And the position of running back is a great analogy specifically because people, if you're to sit back and you're the GM of a team and you go, who do I want running the ball? Instinctively, we would say, I want the fastest guy in the field. I'm like, Hmm, that's an

interesting idea. The fastest, or someone will say, I want the biggest. I want the guy nobody can tackle. I want a bell cow, the bell cow. Yeah, I want them. Absolutely. That's what I want. But I say, but if you want a running back, that's going to be around and is versatile and it's going to have a long career with you and help build your team and your franchise. You actually want someone who's big enough, fast enough, but not the biggest or the fastest. If F equals MA, forces, mass, tons, acceleration, the bigger you are, the greater the force you experience. So when people say, oh, that big running back is going to run over that safety, he's experiencing the same amount of force as the safety is. Two objects that collide, basic Newtonian physics, experience

the same amount of force. So the bigger you are, the more force you experience every single time. On the flip side of that, the faster you are, the more force you actually experience. So when you look at, well, who has the top five running backs of all time by yards gained, none of them are over six feet. They're not that big, right? I mean, you look at Emmitt Smith, look at Walter Payton, Barry Sanders, LT, look at Curtis Morton. None of these guys are over six feet tall. Then you say, well, how big, but they were beasts. They were beasts. I'm like, Walter Payton was barely 200 pounds. Like he's not that big there. And then they say, why would them be super fast? And you're like, actually, when you look back at it, Emmett Smith, by no matter what standard you use, was considered a slower running back. So how is he so good?

Because if you just think about it, basic physics, the slower I'm moving, the easier it is for me to change direction. The lighter I am, the less force I experience when I go to the ground. So Emmitt Smith is that perfect running back. And when people go, are you calling Emmitt Smith slow? Not relative to the human population, but relative to guys who are super fast. And here's another crazy stat. So this stat is true and it's nutty. If you look at the 10 fastest 40-yard dash times on the offensive side of the ball based on NFL combine electronic timing, of the top 10, two have 1,000 yards within a season. The other eight don't have 1,000 yards in their careers.

Whoa. That just tells you. And when people go, you can't teach speed. Like, right. Well, if you line up and you see a guy just blazing the 40, there's an 80% chance that they're not going to be an NFL star. And when people go, that's not true. Go look it up. It's true.

And everyone's like, my God, I know for a fact, my favorite player ran a four, three. I'm like, nah, he ran a four, six. So like, let's not just get hung up. And that's, it's hard for people to realize don't get hung up on the numbers. I love that. And you know, the Malcolm Gladwell, uh, for what it's worth had that interesting finding that if you're born in the first three months of the year, then you're more likely to become a pro hockey player. Okay. Okay. So we can get lost in some of that and there's a yes and a no to that. Okay. But I love when data tells a story. I really enjoy that. And so 80% chance that if you're the fastest, one of the top 10 in the combine,

you're not going to, you're not going to have a very long career. You're not going to even have a thousand yards in your career. And is that because injury? It's injury rate. ratio has to be one where your muscles are able to propel your frame so fast that you're able to achieve a time that others can't. So your frame can't be that big. Yeah. It's like Ferrari's running into Cadillacs. Correct. You know, it's like, well, over time, maybe you want a Cadillac if we're going to do it like some kind of derby. We look at Chris Johnson. And look, Chris Johnson was a great running back for a season or two, right? Is he going to go

down as one of the greatest running backs of all time? Is he going to the Hall of Fame? You're like, he had a great season. What do you think of Ezekiel Elliott? So I think he's the Goldilocks zone, man. We had him in the lab. He's in that perfect strata. Yeah. He's got that build. Yep. He's the perfect prototype to be somebody who could be around for a really long time. I know you're friends with Marshawn Lynch. Sure.

And he's outside of that typical design. And he was an incredible player. And I think if you were just looking at data, take personality out of it, if you're just looking at data, you would say his story makes sense because he's large. He's large. He's wide. Do you want to know what's really interesting

is that I really love Pete Carroll's analysis, and we actually did an analysis on the infamous pick that Russell threw on the goal line against the Patriots. Everyone's like, you just give the ball to Marshawn Lynch. The odds actually, the statistics say they actually aren't that good because everybody knows he's getting the ball and he can't get the one yard, not because of his ability, because everybody knows he's going to get the ball. So it's better to throw a short pass than to hand it off, statistically speaking.

Emotionally, everyone will say forever, how did you not give the ball to Marshawn Lynch? You know what? I love that you did that analysis and I saw it. And it's easy that you would bring that up now because it's like, okay, Mike, statistically it bore out. Yeah, I'll tell you, being in that stadium. I was there too. Oh, were you there? Oh yeah. Okay. There wasn't a person in there less, maybe a couple of coaches on, you know, on, on, on our side that didn't think that Marshawn was going to get the ball. Right. I mean, the whole crowd was like, just hand it to Marchand. Not knowing that we're one for five, you know, on the goal line with Marchand that year.

That's not very good. And if they brought out their big, the big largest men in the building, they brought them out to stop the run. It was beautifully designed to put a pass in the, you know, on the goal line or up in the corner. And it just, unfortunately, you know. It didn't pan out fully. So, and, but yeah, it didn't work without being in that stadium. I've never been at a sporting event where something gigantic happened. And I will say that it was outside of the collective crowds imagination. The reaction within the stadium was so delayed. It was not, you know, Butler makes the interception and everybody immediately went, Oh my God. It was what?

Everyone's asking each other what, what he didn't, that didn't just happen. Right. It was so delayed. I've never, I've never felt a whole stadium just say what it was like beyond our imagination. Yeah. And that that's the trap actually for, I think most people in intense environments is that our mind wants to figure it out. So we get ahead of ourselves, the stadium, how many people were in that stadium? Uh,000? Yeah. What is the? It was. Maybe 100,000. Arizona is like a big stadium.

Yeah, it was a big. I don't know what they hold, but let's say 90,000. They all hold a lot of people. And so that 90,000, we got ahead of ourselves. Right. And I'm sure there were some that were like, no, no, no, there's still one more play. Of course. And most people's minds want to get ahead of themselves to try to predict safety or, you know, hostility or whatever. Right. And it happens in subtle ways in social settings,

but that's really part of what our brain is designed to do. And most people got ahead of themselves celebrating on the sidelines, celebrating in the stands, like, oh my God, can you believe that the Seahawks are back at this position? Of course they're going to win. Oh my God, it's just a handoff. And then the pain that came with, it's almost like walking down, walking down your stairs, seeing the Christmas tree. You're seven years old. You see the shape of the box that you've been wanting and hoping for. It's wrapped just right. And you know that it's the thing that you've been wanting and you open it up and it's not the thing. It's a thing that looks

like the thing, but it's not the thing. And that's like, and you know, do you remember that look like, or that feeling like. Absolutely. And it kind of goes back to what I'm, what I was saying about extrapolating, right? You extrapolate and we had, you had a whole, I mean, you, you had a hundred million people who were extrapolating at that moment. Think of the courage it took to say, nah, we should pass it. Right now, this is when you point to a guy like P Carol, you know, inside and out. And you say, how is that guy such an amazing coach? Does he freak out? Does he panic under pressure? Is he a guy that's like, oh my God, I'm nervous. I'm not sure what to do. Or is he more like someone in the special forces? He more like a Navy SEAL. When things are going crazy,

I can see, the chaos is going on, but I see an opportunity here and I'm not going to jump to a conclusion. I'm going to make a decision. I don't have to be a robot, but I can make a rational decision when things are going crazy. And at that moment, the courage to make that call, people will look back and say, it's the worst call in history, but statistically it should have worked. And we talked to Malcolm Butler and think about this. So Butler, as we all know, certainly wasn't the star of the Patriots defense. This is the defensive back who stole the ball or intercepted the ball from Russell on the goal line. Right. When we talked to him and said, why, how'd you jump that route? He said in literally in practice the week before leading up to it, he got burned on that exact play. And Coach Belichick let him know that will never happen. And he just said,

as soon as I saw that play, I just jumped it. Now, imagine this. Imagine if he hadn't made that mistake in practice. I mean, imagine if it hadn't sunk in that, oh my God, he wasn't a star. He didn't have the $10 million contract. He's like, oh my God, I got Coach Belichick mad at me about this one thing that's now stuck in my mind. And I'm in a position where I sense that's the thing he got mad at me for. So I better jump it. And he didn't have the ability or he had the ability to not get frozen in that fear that he was chewed out by his coach, the head coach. Right. And he didn't freeze there. Like it's extraordinary how this all went down and the butterfly effect of why did they even practice that? And you know, all of these sequences that took place. And I've never told the story. I'm going to tell you the story. I think it's fun is that, so my wife is there and afterwards, you know, we, we huddled back up and, and, you know, I was like, you all right. Like, how was that? And like, cause it was intense in the locker room, the most intense

emotions that I've ever felt in one setting. Sure. Right. It was everything related to grief that you would imagine. There was denial. There was, um, searching and yearning. There was anger. There was sad. There was times 10, right? Alpha males in the locker room. Okay. Feeling a lot. So afterwards I connect with my wife and, um, she goes, I missed it. And she, you know, she was in the stands. I said, what do you mean you missed it? She goes, our son was like five, I think at the time he had to go to the bathroom. So she thought to herself, oh my goodness. Okay.

And she said, you know, buddy, can you hold it? And he's like, no, I really have to go. Okay. So he doesn't really care about the game. You know, a little five-year-old, he's got to go to the bathroom. So she has a quick moment to herself. Well, we're on the one yard line. Okay. And let's make a beeline. Maybe we can, you know, maybe there's a timeout or something happens. So she goes to the bathroom and then she hears the crowd just kind of go crazy, but a weird crazy to your point. And so she looks up and she sees, and oh no, she, she listens and she hears, uh, it's been

an interception. Like someone on the loudspeaker said, or interception. And so she goes, oh no. And my five-year-old says, what happened? And she says, Seahawks lost. And he paused and he said, this is brilliant. He said, what a shame, mommy. They all work so hard.

Oh my God. Bring him down to the locker room. The innocence of like, they work so hard. Which is true. Best in the world work really, really hard. What did you find out from a recovery standpoint? From a recovery from that play? From your show.

No, from sports science. In terms of recovery of an athlete, resilience mentally or physically? Either. Yeah, both are fascinating. So here's what's fascinating is that genuinely the best will take any event, no matter how big or small, and tuck it away in a spot that provides them with that little bit, that extra motivation, right? Jordan would take a slight and remember it and say, I'm filing that one away, right? Tiger would be like, I heard what you said about me. I got that right in my head. I know what you wrote about me. I got that in my head. When people say, oh, I don't read the media and I don't, whatever it's complete lie, right? They know it's out there and they use it as fuel. That's, what's a little bit different that about people who are great at athletics or anything

else is that they can take something that's negative and use it as a driving force. And I have a, I have a great story. I actually have never told anybody. I've actually never told anybody this. Similar to the athletes. So early in our development as a production company, we had an investor that was interested in buying the company. And we sat down and we discussed what we thought our company was worth. And the investor laughed at what he thought we were worth. And he said, you're just delusional. And my partner and I, this is way before sports science, said, delusional?

And on almost a daily basis, he'd be like, hey, let's let the two of us who are delusional go make something happen. And we would use that as this fuel rather than, you know what, if you were to make a bet, he probably was right that we were delusional and that it wasn't going to work out because most companies don't work out, but we made it work out because we had that little voice in the back of our head of like, Oh, delusional. And I remember being on the set, especially of XMA where we had to build this huge, giant, elaborate set. And literally Mickey and I were like, look at how delusional we are. And we just use that. that we that word just stuck with us and we use it as such motivation yeah so a chip it's a chip yeah it was a chip that thank god he said it right then you say to yourself what if he hadn't said that that's right right what if he hadn't i mean he's essentially insulted us i mean it was a huge insult so you're delusional. It's like that it's, it's the dismissiveness. What about your history allowed you to use that rather than it use you? Cause that can happen

quickly and easily. And it's momentarily, uh, this, we don't have an understanding of the porousness porousness of the human mind, right? Sometimes things come in and sometimes they don't. Right. And there's certainly things that you've had in your life that somebody has said to you and it's gone in and it's festered and you've watered it and it's grown and it's not good. It's not, it's a weed. Right. And this was, it had the potential to be a weed, but it didn't make it in. Can you, can you unpack that just a little bit? What about your history allowed you to use something for good? At that moment, when we were told that we were delusional, at that moment, the company wasn't that big. We weren't a huge force in the industry at all. We hadn't created sports science and

we hadn't created XMA or, or, or fight science or anything. And we sort of sat back and both of us were like being called delusional. Like there are very, very few things that you could be called that are more insulting to someone who's creative, like saying delusional. And to me, I'm such a fanatic about words. I'm so specific about the words I'm using. I'm like, delusional. How could you have used that in a non-insulting way? You meant that as an insult. So that means that you're saying I am delusional, meaning what I see happening is just a mirage. And I knew, I always knew within myself, I'm like, but what I'm, what I feel like one of my strengths is, is making something out of nothing. So that oasis that I see down there is actually, it's, it's actually there. The tree is there. The water is there. I just need to keep running

after it. And when you feel like you're never going to get there, I'm like, I'm so stubborn and I'm so, I believe in myself. I believe in my cause. I believe in I'll get there. I don't know how long it's going to take me. I don't know how many twists and turns, but I'm going to, that water exists. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day. And Cozy Earth has become a new part of that.

Their bedding, it's incredibly soft, like next level soft. And what surprised me the most is how much it actually helps regulate temperature. I tend to run warm at night and these sheets have helped me sleep cooler and more consistently, which has made a meaningful difference in how I show up the next day for myself, my family, and our team here at Finding Mastery. It's become part of my nightly routine. Throw on their lounge pants or pajamas, crawl into bed under their sheets, and my nervous system starts to settle. They also offer a 100 night sleep trial and a 10-year warranty on all of their bedding, which tells me, tells you, that they believe in the long-term value of what they're creating. If you're ready to upgrade your rest and turn your bed into a better recovery zone,

use the code FINDINGMASTERY for 40% off at CozyEarth.com. That's a great discount for our community. Again, the code is FINDINGMASTERY for 40% off at CozyEarth.com. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Caldera Lab. I believe that the way we do small things in life is how we do all things. And for me, that includes how I take care of my body. I've been using Caldera Lab for years now. And what keeps me coming back, it's really simple.

Their products are simple and they reflect the kind of intentional living that I want to build into every part of my day. And they make my morning routine really easy. They've got some great new products I think you'll be interested in. A shampoo, conditioner, and a hair serum. With Caldera Lab, it's not about adding more. It's about choosing better. And when your day demands clarity and energy and presence, the way you prepare for it matters. If you're looking for high quality personal care products that elevate your routine without complicating it, I'd love for you to check them out.

Head to calderalab.com slash finding mastery and use the code finding mastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash finding mastery. Your talent, your craft is something from nothing is yeah. Something from nothing, which is for many, a delusion, a delusion of grandeur even, right? It's the mirage that, that you are looking at, but maybe you shouldn't be looking at, right? It's the mirage that you're seeing that might not be real, to be more accurate. And so when he said that, it was actually confirmation of your craft. He just couldn't see what you were seeing from nothing.

100%. Okay. Totally get that. And really important as a takeaway to be very clear about what makes X person special. What makes you special is this, right? The ability to craft something from nothing. And that's probably something that you've said to yourself over and over again. It was a belief you had. Okay. Then he confirmed it. That's all that was. That was really nice. Thank you for a lot of reasons. Right. And you had fun with it and all that good stuff. What gives you the right to believe that you can do something special?

I think that's a great question. A lot. And I'm just going to slightly rephrase it. And I'm going to, I'm going to change the word special to great. What makes me believe that I can do something that's great? Cool. Right. I think that they're synonymous in this case. The reason why I believe it is because I think everybody can. I believe that you're racing with everyone who's capable of being great. Now, there's that old phrase of everybody wants to be great until they realize

what it takes to be great. Are you willing to keep going? Are you willing? Are you so, and I like to use the word stubborn because I think it's actually a powerful word. Stubborn means you don't know any better. You're so stubborn. You're just set in your ways and you're not willing to look outside. But when you're trying to achieve something, it is so easy to analytically determine this isn't possible. It's super easy to prove that. But you have to look beyond that and say, you know what? I think the numbers are actually wrong. And I think that I can overcome that or the margin is so slim. I think I can do that. And the reason I think I can do that, in which if I were to say making something out of nothing is a strength, but that something has to

be good, right? It's got to be something that's good. And when I use the word great, something can't be great unless it's good enough to be considered great. And what I have never gotten hung up on is there are some people who feel like the painting is never done. The song is never done. Like it's never complete. In my mind, I'm like, I'm going to put a ball into play and I'm completely comfortable because

I know it's good enough to be considered good. Now, is it going to put a ball into play and I'm completely comfortable because I know it's good enough to be considered good. Now, is it going to be great? Time will tell. I don't know. Maybe it will. That song that when you hear all these stories of people that write songs in two minutes and then become the classics, they didn't know that that was going to be their big hit. They wrote it and they're like, yeah, it's good. It's good enough to be good. So I'm done with it and I'm going to put it down. It became great over time. So if I were to say sports science, I think that I can sit back in a career and I'm saying in an objective way, you know what? That was a great idea, but it wasn't great out of the box. It was something that time had to happen,

you know, season after season and show after show had to keep occurring and you had to keep honing that craft so that it could become great. And you can sit back and say, yeah, it's great. Now, when I say, oh, you know what? I think it's great. That's a very biased point of view because I was involved with it and it turned out to be successful. I've had other things that have been successful where I stand back and I'll give you a great example. First movie I made out of college, got great reviews, got distribution deal, blah, blah, blah. I won't watch it because I know it's not good. It's just not good. So I don't think it's good, but other people might think it's good or great, but I don't know that that doesn't, that's not what I'm going. What I'm going for is more, it's gotta be good enough to be good. And then greatness will happen in time.

Inside of that model, when you make a mistake, when you do something that is very average or below average, and it turns into something that is a cluster. How do you make sense of it? How do you deal with a mistake or something that is really not very talented, not skilled enough? I try to be brutally honest with myself. And I think abandoning an idea is a hard thing. It's a hard thing for me to do, but I'm willing to do it. And I'm willing to say, you know what? This is just, it's on the wrong path. Maybe there's a kernel of something in there that would, that, you know, is something that

could become good. And maybe I need to extract that. But the path I'm on, I need to, I need to just abandon this path because I know this is, I know. And if I don't believe in it, I'm never going to be able to create something out of it. Okay. Because that's the opposite of stubborn. So it's just like, like you've got something on the other side of this. So stubborn and idea. And I would call that dogged perseverance. Like I'm going to stick with something and persevere during the, during all the twists and turns and storms and valleys. And I'm going to

stay with it because I believe in it and I'm going to be dogged about it. That's okay. But this is opposite of that. Only in the case, well, let's take it. So let's, let's examine this. I think this is a great, great way to look at it. How early in the process do you identify, that's not going to work. Then I would say, I can't even think of a venture where I got way down the road and then abandoned it. Like it happens super early for me where I'm like, ah, you know what? This isn't worth my, this isn't, this isn't worth it. Cause I now, now I don't see it. Okay. So once you get in the boat, okay. Right. And you're a little bit offshore, you're going, I'm going. Yeah. So, so the building

the boat process, setting the navigation before you even set in, knowing the terrain, knowing the ocean predictions, whatever, like you do all of that analysis upfront to be able to say, once I'm in and I get a little offshore, you can give yourself a little room to say, Ooh, I didn't fix that hole well enough. Right. That's a great analogy. It's a beautiful analogy because the idea of abandoning something, remember, I like, I would say one of my strengths is extrapolating and you'll wake up and you'll be like, Oh my God, I have this great idea. It's going to be awesome. And then you start in the very early stages of building that boat of saying, okay, I'm going to build this boat. We're going to push off the dock and we're going to go.

And as you're building it, you're like, no, I don't, I don't think this vessel is actually going to take you. I don't think it's seaworthy. It's not going to handle the storm and I can't see it anymore. So I can't, I'm not going to build it, but once it's built, like I'm going for it. And that's that. Tell me about your parents. I know it sounds so trite to say, but like, what were they like? What do you remember your childhood being like? All right. So that's a very few people have asked me about my family, but this is a really important, it's so important because they literally crafted me and I had the perfect balance. My parents grew up in a town called Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. It was a coal mining town. And it was very antiquated even back in that day. It was a coal mining town. It was divided between

Russians and Polacks. You basically had the Russians on one side, Polacks on the other. You weren't allowed to intermingle. And my parents, both of their parents, one was Polish, one was Russian. So already they're setting the stage of, all right, well, there is this barrier put in place. We crossed over that barrier. We broke that down. And my mom and dad looked at the landscape and my mother's father, so my grandfather, was the only person, not only in his family, but in town to get a college degree. And he became the educated guy in town. And he was ostracized. He was abandoned by his family. They're like, what, you're too good for the coal mines? So my parents looked at this and they were like, you know what? There's a lot more to life. And they did not have a master plan. They said, we need to get out of this town. And they moved out of the town and moved

down to the DC area. My dad was in the Navy. He went to Georgetown. My mom was, my mom has been in nursing her whole life and she was in, so she's in the field of nursing. And my father went from Georgetown and got involved in the private sector. And this was the private sector of computing, these new things. This was in the late 60s, early 70s, where my God, there are going to be things called computers that are going to revolutionize the world. He had to make a bold choice because he was on that private track. He decided, you know what? This private track, I'm going to be traveling all the time and I don't want to do that. So he decided to work for the government so he could be at every baseball practice so that he could be a dad and

be around. But it came with a very heavy price tag. He worked for the government for 20 years and would come home and really be quite frustrated. And it was a day, you know, like getting up, going to a, when I say fairly passionless, it wasn't like his dream, but he got out of the town and he had a great steady job and he was able to raise his kids. But his job was not his passion. You then out of the flip side, you have my mom. Nursing was her passion and she loved everything she did. But she was always there for me and my sister.

She was always there. And so no matter what, she would make sure that her work schedule was one that never conflicted with any of our games, with when we left for school, when we got home from school. She was there all the time. So you have this ridiculously nurturing mother. You have a father who is going to do what he has to do in order to be around, but he's not happy with it. So it created this culture where my parents literally looked me in the eye and begged me. Like when I say beg, they said, do whatever you want in life. Just be happy. I mean, my dad is like,

just do whatever you want. And my mom's like, just do whatever you want. Dream big. So we lived in Vienna, Virginia. And I'm like, I want to be in entertainment. That's what I want to do. I don't know anybody. You don't know anybody. And what first started was I said, I think I have an idea for a movie. I want to make a movie. And they're like, go for it. How old I was 18. And at that time they said, my parents said, we'll back you. You don't have to get a job. Why don't you try to make that movie? Now this is how it started. I said, I don't even, I've never read a screenplay. I don't know anything about a screenplay. Why don't I write it as a book first? Okay. Hold on before you go there. Why entertainment? What was it about entertainment? What did you, so did you have a choice to go to school or not school? I don't

know if you, so I went to a great high school. It's called James Madison, um, high school in Virginia. And I grew up in a town where if you, Vienna, Virginia is like eight miles outside of Washington, DC. Everybody's in politics. I grew up in a small where if you, Vienna, Virginia is like eight miles outside of Washington, DC. Everybody's in politics. I grew up in a small town called Warrington. Okay. Yeah.

So that's not that far from there. And so ours was a little bit, well, it was further removed than politics. We didn't have, we barely had running water, you know? So literally we had no streetlights and it was out there. But so for me, I was always, I was, I was this dichotomy of had high energy. I was, I was a very good student my whole life. I love to learn and I really enjoyed creating things. So being in the student government was something that in elementary school, I was in student government and high school, I'm in the student government and I created events and I created a thing called Mr. Madison. That was a male beauty pageant in my

high school that I'm like, you know what? Before I leave this high school, I want to create something that's going to last forever. And to this day, it still exists and we're still doing it. I love this because if you weren't doing it in entertainment or doing it with sports science or fight science or XMA in reverse order, you had this interest that you want to create something that stands the test of time. Yes. Anything that's great usually will. The ages will determine what is great, not our peers, right? The ages will determine that. And so where did that come from? I know I'm keep pulling on this, but where did that come from that you want to do something

that lasts? I always felt from a very young child, I'm a very spiritual guy. You know, I was born and raised Catholic. I did not go to Catholic school because my parents wanted me to go to school with a diverse group, right? They didn't want just Catholic. They're like, no, you're going to go to the public schools and they're great schools and be with a whole mix of people. It's great. This desire to create something that lasts beyond me. I mean, when I tell you it happened from a very young age, I pray morning, noon, and night. And my relationship with God and the universe is one where I know I really am just a speck. I'm an insignificant speck in this giant sea of the universe. But as a little speck, how can I make sure that the thing that I do is

going to leave a mark that's positive? I mean, what you're not hearing from me is, oh, and then I decided to get into this negative thing that, you know, yeah, it left a mark, but it was a really bad thing. I always wanted to create stuff that would leave a positive mark so that at night when I prayed, I could say, I did my best today. And that's what I always, from a very young child, when we sat around the dinner table and we talk about my parents creating me, we talked about how was your day? And the question was always, did you do your best today? And it was just drilled into me of, you didn't have to get an A. You didn't just drilled into me of, you didn't have to get an A. You didn't have to get a hundred. You didn't have to be number one in something,

but did you do your best? I had the same message and it was pervasive for me growing up. And in many ways, it was this incredible gift because there was space, lots of space. And the other side, sometimes I wonder what would have happened if they would have said, hey, listen, why don't you stick with this sport? Or why don't you, you're like, you've got a natural inclination in this part of your life. I'm glad they didn't. I'm really happy in life. Right. But I wonder what would have, how would it been different? And so it took me longer probably than you to figure out what stride feels like, right? Like I had short steps. If we're thinking about efficiency of running, I had short steps for a long time. And then I had to figure out what stride is. I'm glad I did because I really appreciate it. And I feel like in many ways I can recognize when I'm in stride and I can recognize others that are in stride. And there's a nice syncopation that takes place there because it's organic. I don't think you can even use that language if you don't organically learn it. So you figured out your stride earlier at 18. And

then did you go the traditional route of education or you say, I'm going to write a book, I'm going to turn that into a screenplay and I'm going to just kind of crack it. This is exactly what I did. But to add to that stride, here's how I think I got my stride from 18 on. I think I got my stride because for a young kid in Vienna, I was a pretty good baseball player. And there was in Little League, I didn't make the all-star team. And I remember like how crushed I was and was awful. And oh my God. And then, you know, in high school, something bad would happen and I'd be like crushed and come home. And my parents told me straight up, they just said, life isn't fair. Like you just have to accept the fact it's not fair. So don't try to take these things that are unfair and somehow blame yourself and be hung up on it. Just know as you move along, tons of unfair things are going to happen.

Those are the rules of the game. So do what you want and be cool with the unfairness that's going to happen because there are going to be roadblocks thrown up. So when I decided in college, I'm like, okay, I'm going to write a book. I mean, literally this came from, I did an independence. I was going to drop out of college. And my mom, who was in education when she was running the nursing department at George Mason, she just said, they would have been totally cool with me dropping out because I'm like, I know what I want to do. And I don't think college is getting me there. She just said, but what's your plan? And that's where the conversation was. I want to be in entertainment. I don't think college is going to do it for me. The dean at my college said, make up your own classes, do independent studies and create your own major

because you're here and you don't have a plan. So I stayed at college and I did this independent study with Steven Soderbergh. And he said, do everything yourself and just learn to yourself. Don't depend on anybody else. Who is Steven Soderbergh? Well, he's not the Oscar award winning. Soderbergh. Not Soderbergh. Right.

Well, you can pronounce it both ways. Oh, I never heard. Okay. Soderbergh, Soderbergh, tomato, tomato. He. Wait, that was your mentor? Yeah. Come on.

In college. Come on. Yeah, true. What was he doing there? He lived there. He lived in Charlottesville. And when I decided that I was going to drop out of college, I said, you know, I'm going to drop out. I just think, I don't think this is for me. The guy that was running, he was the head of the Virginia Independent Film Festival. He, his name is Bob Ghazali. He's now the CEO president of AFI. He said to me,

well, if you want to get in entertainment, there's this kid in town that just won like the Cannes Film Festival with this movie called Sex, Lies, and Videotape. Probably haven't seen it, but he's just finishing up his second movie. And I think he actually might be a hot shot. Why don't you track him down and ask him how to do this? So I tracked him down and I literally got college credit for Steven to tell me, just learn to do everything yourself. I got college credit for that. And when I went to my parents and they said, look, do whatever you want. You want to be in entertainment. My mom challenged me. So you don't have a plan. I said, I'm going to write a book. So I started with what I knew how to do. Like I know how to write. I don't know how to write a screenplay, but I know

how to write. So I wrote a book. Then from that book, I took a screenwriting class that was not part of the curriculum at UVA. I took a screenwriting class and I turned that book into a screenplay. When I, I then took, I got an internship at a video house where I learned to shoot and to edit and to do light and to direct. And I made short films. And I'm like, hey, I'm leaving college. I had written a book. I'd written a screenplay. I have a bunch of short films that I made on my own, just all on my own, all of which I got credit for because I made my own major. And they were like, yeah, we'll give you credit for that. So I graduate from that. And I'm like, I want to make this into a movie. Now we have to raise money. So we literally went friend to friend, family member to family member, and just see, could we scrape together a hundred thousand dollars to make a movie? Like, is that possible? And we scraped this money together and my parents are like, go for it. And when I tell you I had $0 in my bank account because every summer, most people would go get a job. My parents supported me and said, do what you want to do. That's going to make you happy and we'll support you. We just need to know this is what you want

to do and you're doing your best. How much space did it take up inside of you when you think about back in that era, back in that phase of your life, when you were thinking about making movies or making a book or screenplay? Or is it more accurate to say, I want to build something that had legacy? Like, I don't know what the thing is yet for you. The thing is, I was making something out of nothing. Okay. But no, that's, that's your process, right? That's what you do really well. That's a skill, but I'm trying to get a sense of like, what was the thing you were driving toward? It was to make something that mattered. Is that

close? That's, that's a hundred percent true. Okay. How much space did that take up in you? When I say, I'm going to say all of it. Yeah. I mean, it's it, especially in that period. Right. So I didn't have a girlfriend. I didn't have any money. I didn't have any hobbies. I didn't have, like I was, I'm an, I'm all in or I'm not in. Right. And especially when you're 18 to early twenties, like I was just, when I'm, when I'm Lizzie's description of Johnny one speed, like it was, and I will tell you how much it occupied when you say how much space. So let me give you a good example. So prior to deciding, you know, what college is not for me. I think I'm going to drop out. Oh, you know what? But I'm going in entertainment. I know I'm going to do this. So I did drink alcohol in college and the alcohol, the alcohol. And I know people are aghast and they probably don't

believe it, but in college I consumed alcohol. And what I will say about my consumption of alcohol is I was, and I will use this word, I mean, it's humbly, but it's true. Awesome at it. I was really, really good at it. I drank Russian, Polish, and I drank so much alcohol. I would drink by myself, not to get drunk because I loved beer and I loved cold beer. And it's interesting because I've since really examined why did I drink so much? And it wasn't because it got me drunk. It wasn't like, oh, my mind is being altered because I never smoked pot. I've never done any drug of any kind. I drank beer, but I was obsessed with drinking beer. What ended up happening is I developed atrial fibrillation. And so I had this irregular heartbeat and I go to the hospital and I'm like, I think I'm having a heart attack. And they're going down the checklist. They're like, well, do you do any drugs? Like, what's going on? This is so unusual for somebody who's so young. Do you do drugs?

I'm like, no. They're like, do you drink? I'm like, sometimes. They're like, well, how often do you drink? Like, every day? I'm like, no. I never drink on Wednesday. Like, are you crazy?

So the doctor is like, and how much are you drinking? I'm like, a case of beer a day? I don't know. Like, isn't that like a normal portion? Come on. I'm dead serious. So the doctor looked at me and he goes, you're drinking a case of beer a day. You're not even legal to drink. You're having heart issues. He said, you have a choice to make today. Like you can continue to roll the dice or you could stop drinking and have an actual life. And at that point, I sat back. And when you say, how much space did it occupy? So I was drinking a case of beer a day in college.

I stopped a single day, have never had anything to drink and really identified as a young adult, wow, I have this obsessive gene that could be used for really bad things or really good things. And I took that and I said, you know, this is a great lesson for me because I'm capable of doing bad. I'm capable of evil. I'm capable of destroying myself. It's in me. And I know it could happen all on my own, but I need to focus. And I'm so grateful that that event happened because all of my space became filled with doing good. How much do you think about this part of you? This is fascinating to me. This is, I think this is the, um, this is a huge insight about how you've become and done. What you've done is that one, there was lots of insight to this as ridiculous motor. And you realize at a young age, you had to point the motor in a direction to experience what you really wanted to experience destruction or space and wonder, or, you know, somewhere in those two. And when I said space, I mean, destruction or in constriction or space and,

and something giving, right. Right. Okay. How much do you, how much time have you spent thinking about this? Do you reflect on this a lot? Is this what you talk about when you do keynote addresses? Do you talk about this part here of your life? I actually don't. I don't share this part all that much in like a public forum or speaking engagement. When I do share it, this is why I have a little bit of a hard time sharing it in a group setting. Because I do think to myself, why can't everybody just shut it off? And I know the reason. The reason is the way that our brains are wired. And I've gone deep with top-notch professionals in this seeking this answer. The road that I was going down was only because I enjoyed the experience, the feeling of a cold beer, the sound of it cracking, the taste of it ice cold.

Like I wasn't drinking Jack Daniels, getting drunk at all costs. It was purely beer and it was purely ice cold beer. And to this day, drinking an ice cold beverage is what I do. That's different than someone who's doing it because they want to alter their state of mind. And it's very hard just to tell people, well, if I can do it, then you can do it because they're dealing with a completely different issue than what I was dealing with. It's why we're wired differently. So I was not doing it to, wow, I'm drunk and I'm having a great time. In fact, when I went to UVA,

I pledged a fraternity and I'm like, okay, I'll be in a fraternity. It's all good. But I was completely against drugs of any kind. Alcohol was fine. This is just, this is just in my young mind, right? I'm like, there's look, alcohol is fine. All the drugs are horrible. And I'd let everybody know that like it was very open about it. And I got to this fraternity and I was at a party early on, right? I'm a pledge. I'm early on and turns out, oh my God, they were doing drugs. I mean, can you imagine that people doing drugs in college, but I'm so naive and don't know anything about anything. I literally the next day just called them and said, I'm out because I don't want to be around it. They said, well, if you're not,

if you de-pledged this, you're out of the whole Greek system. I'm like, I don't want to be around it. It's just not me. So I left not caring that, okay, I can't go to those, those parties. They're doing something that I don't want to be a part of. And people say, well, you're such a hypocrite because you were drinking. Like, is it hypocritical from an objective point of view? You go, well, sure. Is drinking worse than smoking pot or whatever. But within my own value system, I was like, I don't want to be a part of that. And this drinking by yourself thing was, I didn't party a lot in college. I mean, that's the truth. I just enjoyed the experience of drinking a beer.

It's like when you dive deep in that and you go, what? So then when I stopped. Okay. Do you have, okay, sorry to interrupt. Do you have, is your thinking patterns, are they rigid or flexible? Cause I'm getting rigidity here, but I don't know you as being rigid. Okay. So here is what I realized, especially early in my life.

I mean, it's, it was rigid early in my life. I mean, when I say none of my friends in high school smoked pot, like we just, nobody smoked pot. We drank beer. And that was like, okay, that was fine. But no, cause I had a black and white look at things like that was it. And I always removed myself from situations that were black and white. I would look at people and I think at a younger age, pretty much I could judge somebody more than be perceptive about something. And once the event happened with alcohol with me, I sat back and I'm like, wow, I think I'm a pretty good person. And I really messed up. And as I've gotten older from that time, I have become so much more empathetic towards human beings that I don't really see black and white. I see gray. And I now

see everybody's got that backstory that I don't know about. And I don't know how they wound up in this position. And I'm incredibly empathetic. And when I see somebody who's working a job that they don't want to work, rather than being like, oh, that's because they're too lazy to go out. It's more, you know what? I don't know. I don't know what brought them to that situation. I see it as more gray. So I would like to think that this A-type personality, this Johnny One Speed, I would hope that my eyes are now seeing the world as more gray as opposed to black and white. Okay. Brilliant. Because it's like that got you into a position to be more flexible. It sounds like early on the rigidity, the one speed, the go at all costs got you into a position. And then did you have a

fallout because of that? I know obviously your heart was one of the early ones, but were there any other costs to that? No, no. Yeah. So there was just success. No, no, I'm joking. No, there really wasn't, you know, in terms of the fallout of being Johnny one speed, there were, I mean, many projects where like, oh, that project didn't work out. And this is the difference in terms of the way that I view the world. And I think the way that many people might see it, I go all out. And like I say, if I think it's good enough, it's good enough. And if it fails and falls on its face when it's released and it doesn't go anywhere, I honestly look at it and I go, just wasn't meant to be. Good enough for you, your standards or good enough for your peers? No, good enough for me. It's got to be good enough for me. Yeah. And then who else is in your mind when you think of good enough? Like who's the next person that you think of? The next person would be Lizzie, of course, my wife, and then it would

be my mom. But my mom's a hard, it's a, you know, everything I do is, she's a mom, right? So everything's like, hey, you know, that's great. Lizzie is a great, is, is a great critic. But I honestly, even, even with that, I'm, I'm the guy that when I'm doing what I'm doing and I'm going forward and P and even when people from the sideline are going, Hey, maybe you shouldn't be doing that. I'm like, you don't see the end. I know, I know where it's going. Like I'm good with this. Like I'm, I don't get discouraged easily. I am so one speed still. And I keep that as a strength because I feel like that's how I get things done is that I'm all in. I'm either all in or all out. Okay. It's obvious that that is one of your core strengths. How do you balance

this big belief in yourself and the good that's going to take a place in the future? How do you balance that with the other side, which I'm sure you've had this prick before about hubris versus humility, right? And so people that have strong confidence, strong belief can edge into the hubris, you know, cocky, arrogant space at, you know, and rub people the wrong way and get in the way of, you know, projects and all that stuff. So how do you, how do you balance that? Cause you're right at the border of that. And when I say right at the border and, and I think you saying that like somebody like sitting across you could be like, how dare you even imply that I potentially could be right. I said this from to Lizzie from day one, I'm a 50, 50 proposition. Like when I show up, you're going to like me or hate me, but you won't be apathetic about me. I'm a coin toss because many people will say, that's one of the most arrogant people I've ever met. And other people will say, wow, that's one of the most passionate people I've

ever met. When I'm engaged and when I'm doing what I'm doing, that belief, I try very, very hard. And it'll be funny. Anybody who knows me, they'll laugh and say, that's not true. But when I say arrogance does not enter my mind because arrogance to me is believing you're better than everybody else. And I honestly believe everybody else could be doing this too. And I don't think I'm the smartest guy in the room. I don't think I'm the most talented guy in the room.

I think I'm willing to run through the wall. And I'll get to the other side because I'm kind of stubborn enough to do it. But I've got some degree of intelligence, some degree of talent, some degree, but I know, and I know for a fact, I'm not even close to the smartest or the best or anything. I'm like, there are people so much better than me, but I'll finish it. I'll give you a really good example. My best friend ran, ran, this is a great example of how, of, of me, my best friend ran a marathon and he called me. This is when I was 27. He called me and he said, I just finished a Marine Corps marathon. And what do you say to your best

friend when he does it? Right? And you're 27. Like there's 25,000 other people who did it. Like, great job. I said, you know what I'm going to do? I'm going to do an Ironman. Hang up the phone. I'm like, what's an Ironman? What am I doing?

I don't even know what it is. It sounded tougher though. Yeah. It sounded better than that. I'm like, I'm going to one up you. So I look it up. I'm like, it's a 2.4 mile open water swim. I'm like, huh? Just a one-up you. So I look it up. I'm like, it's a 2.4 mile open water swim. I'm like, huh, just a little problem. I don't know how to swim. All right, next thing. It's 112 mile bike. I'm like, wow, that's, I mean, I can ride a bike, but I don't own a bike.

So that might be, that's a problem. And then it's a 26.2 mile run. And I'm like, I haven't run anything beyond 5k. Like, God, man, have I bitten off more than I could chew? Well, I decided. So I was actually in the best shape of my life when this was happening because backstory really quick, I weighed one 98 and I was five, eight and a half. And I was terribly out of shape. I was like the meathead in the gym. I could lift a ton of weight. I was really strong for my size, but I couldn't walk up a flight of stairs or run a mile. So I lost 50 pounds, broke the five and I decided to break the five minute mile because I'd never done it in high school and I was pissed at myself. So I was starting this Ironman thing. I was like in the

best shape of my life. So I then go over to New Zealand by myself to do an Ironman. And my best friend called me and he just goes, dude, I know, listen, you're taking this thing a little far. Like you've never gone swimming in open water. And I'm swimming. And I'm not kidding you. Five minutes into the swim, I say to myself, I'm going to drown. And this is the worst obituary of all time. Man goes over to New Zealand to one-up his best friend and dies in the fun swim. Like this is the worst. This is awful. So I get out of the water. I swam two miles in an hour in this open water. I then go take a swim lesson from some Olympic guy that was there

doing a swim clinic. I beg him. I'm like, I don't know how to swim. You got to teach me quick. Cause the race is in two days. Turns out the day of the race, I get out of the water. There were a thousand people in the race. I'm a hundredth. I'm top 10% in the swim in 2.4 miles. And I got out in 59 minutes. I swam almost a half mile further in the same amount of time as when I thought I was going to drown. And I get out of the water and I'm like, wow, this is pretty amazing. I get on my bike. Everybody passes me on the bike, but I survive. I get on my bike, everybody passes me on the bike, but I survive. I get on the run, cross the finish line. And I'm like, I did it. But during that process, I'm like, so was I arrogant to believe that I could do it? Or was I just right? I'm like, you know what? It's one foot in front of the other. It's one pedal stroke at a time. It's

one swim stroke at a time. I'll get there. I mean, I, I, I've never done it. I've never even come close. Is it arrogant to think that, or was I just right? I wasn't, I'm not arrogant because I was, I finished, you know, bottom 50%. There are people who are so much better than I am, so much more talented, so much much but I did what I set out to do that's how my mind works is I'm like I'm not even close to the talents most talented or the smartest guy but I'll get there of all the people that you studied on sports science the show who are you most like of the talent of the talent god I mean I don't not enough. I'm a nobody. I'm a zero. Personality wise, not, not, not, I didn't mean that in like sport, but personality.

Physically. I mean, personality wise of all the athletes, I would not even mention my name in the same breath of any of those athletes because they are so much better at what they're doing than what I'm doing. It was a little bit of a trap, that question, wasn't it? And you said, no, no, no, no. I can't put my name next to Michael Jordan. I can't put my name next to Tiger Woods. That's a really thoughtful response you gave. I can't. You can't because when you're- Some might. You didn't. I wouldn't. I know't. You can't because when you're- Some might. You didn't. I wouldn't. I know better.

Yeah, that's really good. I'm like, I know better. I'm not that talented, that smart, that any one thing in particular, other than being stubborn. Okay. So we know, okay. So we've got some core capabilities here. Stubborn, driven, big motor, big engine, big belief system, but like accurate in where you place yourself amongst talent. But you had said earlier that at some point in our conversations, you had said that being the biggest is not a good thing. Being the fastest is the fastest.

The tip of the arrow fastest is not a good thing. Being the fastest is the fastest. The tip of the arrow fastest is not a good thing. You need to be big and fast enough to be successful. Correct? And so you put that into a lifelens. It's like, you don't want to have 170 IQ. You don't want to be that guy. Right. Right. Because there's some costs in other parts of your life. You want to have a hundred and something IQ that's fast enough. And then you want to have a social IQ and an emotional IQ that is solid enough to relate. Okay. All right. So that's what you're saying that you found from the best. And you're saying, I kind of fit that model. Luckily too. I fit it on a per task basis.

Okay. So we know what you're driven toward. Okay. Doing things that matter, legacy stuff. What are you driven from? I'm driven from true, I mean, like what fuels me, like what's inside of me. And I'm, when I tell you today, that answer is different than it would have been 20 years ago. Lizzie and the kids really genuinely would drive me. And my life is divided into two chapters. It's really before Lizzie and after Lizzie. Once I met Lizzie, everything changed. And that example of being, I would call myself, I'm not the smartest, but I'm smart enough. And I'm not the most talented, but I'm talented enough. Like I fit that mold. Lizzie brought a sense of appreciation for myself. She knows me better than I know myself. So when, when we have our pillow talk, she's the ultimate counselor on let's put everything in perspective because she's the opposite of Johnny

one speed. She's the ultimate in balance. She went to Princeton. She went to Harvard. She, you know, speaks three different languages. That sounds like balance. She, she, she's the, she was the first person from her high school to go to Princeton, but she's so balanced. She's so not obsessive. She's this perfectly, I mean, in my eyes, I'm like, she's just perfection incarnate. And I look at her and I try to model myself and say, God, how can I be like her? And for her, it's about moderation. She's the kind of person who can take, you know, the best taking tasting ice cream in the world and take a little spoonful and say, wow, that's really good. I've had enough. I'm like, I'm the guy with his head

in the bucket. Well, a case of beer, literally a case of beer, right? So Lizzie has imparted upon me the ability to evaluate myself even better. And guess when I met Lizzie? And you've heard the professional story. Met her when we were making XMA. Met her at that exact moment where that word delusional was filling, was fueling me. And Lizzie then comes in my life. And I'm like, now we've, we had that love at first sight story, met on a plane, sat next to each other, live two blocks away from each other, other than the same street, like this perfect match in heaven. And when I say Lizzie and the kids fuel me, that's my genuine purpose. But when I say I answer to them, I have to be able to, whatever it is that I'm doing, I need to make sure that my wife and my kids won't be upset at me for what I'm doing at that moment, every moment of the day.

And when I go home and I'm praying, when I say I'm deeply spiritual and I answer, I really honestly believe in God, however you look at the universe, that did I add to the energy in a positive way or take away from it? And I answer that question every night. And obviously there are many nights where I go, God, I messed up. I was not a net positive person today. Okay. Brilliant. Two chapters. Is there a third?

Is there going to be a third, right? So that's the question. Right. Here's my answer. I'm going to say we're always evolving, but my life is two chapters because the evolution happened until I was 31 with just me and my parents and family and that support system. From Lizzie on, it's like Lizzie and I are forever and we're going to evolve together forever. And in terms of there being another chapter, it's just going to continue to evolve.

And I think I probably become, over time, a more moderate person. Probably. You know, I think we're somewhere in the hundreds of interviews or conversations with people that are switched on. And nobody's taken up as much space as you are right now about the relationship, their love life. So that's, that's noticeable to me how important this is for you. She is, she's everything. I mean, Lizzie is everything. And when people say, you know, when like you complete me, I almost feel like I actually didn't really exist. I wasn't me until Lizzie came aboard. I had my training wheels on, sports science came, everything took off. Everything got better and better because I think my clarity and my vision got even better with her. How old are your

kids? Nine and 11. Nine and 11. So are they into sport? Yeah. Yeah. A little girl's a gymnastics baller. She's amazing. Two times state champion. She's awesome. Wow. Bryce does a lot of lacrosse, her son does lacrosse, total baller, really excelling in it. What insights based on your observation and study from the sport science lenses, are you, how are you shaping your kids and parenting? It's a great question. And I don't know if people are going to agree or disagree with this. I am making sure that my daughter knows she's a human being. She's not a little girl. And I feel like society takes little girls and handicaps them right away. They lower the expectations. The games are shorter. They don't have to do it. You know, for the presidential physical fitness test, you don't have to do the same as the boys. Oh,

you're never going to be as fast as the boys. You're not going to be as strong. You're not going to, they tell you that right away. And I'm telling my little girl, I'm like, right now she's the fastest human in her class, male or female. I'm like, dude, ride that as long as you can. There might be a day when you're not, but don't let anybody tell you it's because you're a girl, like that you're a human and go for it. Physically, she's a very, very good gymnast for her age. And I'm, I'm really realistic at standing back and saying, what are the odds that my little girl has what it takes because her mom's five foot, I'm five, eight. She is, she is little one speed when it comes to gymnastics and tasks. She's got that focus. So she's in that space. Now, somebody like that, are they ultimately going to become the greatest in the world? I'm like, I'm raising him, especially I'm letting him know you're, you're a man. Like, I totally get it that you're a boy

and I totally get it. The boys do boys things, but you're, you're more mature than you possibly think. And my son now is 11 going on 21. I'm like, you know more than you think, you know, and you know, what's right and wrong. And obviously I'm telling this to both my kids that, you know, what's right and wrong and you do your best every day. And I'm trying to echo what my parents would just drill into my head on. You know what? I get that you're a kid and be a kid, but you do know what's right and wrong. And that idea of accountability is one that I think is key. And they're both, they're both thriving and flourishing. And it's, it's, it's been awesome as a parent, but you know, the nature versus nurture argument, you know, like, are we just blessed with two awesome kids or is it the manner in which Lizzie and I are parenting or like, what is it? And when I say two awesome kids, everybody thinks their kids are awesome, right? At least they should. And I think everybody should think that, that their, their kids are awesome, you know? And they're, when I

say Lizzie, you know, Lizzie's number one, my kids are right there of, if I want to hang out with anybody in the world, it's Lizzie and the kids. Okay, let's stay on the sport thing for just a minute. Are you encouraging them to do sports training or sports-specific movements? Like just get in gymnastics, stay in gymnastics, or are you having them do some sort of other types of base movements? They have to be multi-sport. So even though my daughter is excelling in gymnastics, she's still on a ski team. She had, I, I, you know, it was like, you got to play lacrosse. You got to play soccer. You got to do

other stuff because if you focus too early, it's a bad thing. A, you're going to burn out. B, it's bad for your body to begin with. You need to, you need the movements that your body doesn't ordinarily do to strengthen your body so it can do what it's really good at. You like that cross training idea. So the kids ski in the winter and you know, Bryce plays, uh, lacrosse, basketball, football, ski, like, yeah, you got to do other stuff. You're not allowed to just park when you're just a kid, you need all that other movement. And I think that that honestly carries through even at the elite level that you can't do one motion over and over and over because there are only so many times that you can do it. You need to have that cross training, those other sports to strengthen other parts of your body.

Flipping on that as a segue onto your book, Perfection Point, what are the one or two insights, big insights that you've learned from there that influence how you parent, but also when you think about athletics in general and human performance in general? And I think I have this right. One of them might be. And so if this is it, maybe you can add two more to it, is that we're actually pretty close to the upper limits. Depends on what we're talking about. Okay. So I didn't get that quite right.

Yeah. It depends on what we're talking about. I was thinking speed. In terms of speed, straight line speed, it depends on what percentage you're actually dealing with, right? Because we're now, I still think we're close to half a second away from the top speed that we can achieve. I think we're four tenths to five tenths. So is that close or not?

Relative to nine seconds, it's still a decent way away. I think where we're really close is in distance running. I think in the marathon, we're really close to topping out. Why is that? We've been running far distances as a species for a really long time, right? The arbitrary distance of the a hundred meter dash, we've been kind of doing that, but it's, I think we're further away from the, the a hundred meter dash than we are the marathon. The marathon, we're almost topped out. When you start talking about, well, what about, you know, what about how high we can jump? I think we're probably pretty close to how high we can jump because we've been jumping for a

really long time. When you say, well, what about lifting? Yeah, we're close to the limit because our frames can only handle so much and we've been able to get there. But then when you say, well, how far you can hit a golf ball? How long have we been playing golf? You say the long jump, but how long have we been long jumping? Like we, when you look at the sample size, it all goes by sample size to me, how hard we can throw a ball. Yeah. We're almost at the top because the sample size is so big. There are a million pitches thrown in North America alone every year. That's just in North America. A million by professional, by the best of the best. So we know that we top out at that.

But when you look at, well, are we at the top? You look at the X Games and that's where I say, depends on what we're talking about, dude. That's right. Yeah, we're just scratching the X games. And that's where I say, depends on what we're talking about, dude. That's right. Yeah. We're, we're just scratching the surface there. Yeah. And most of the X games and adventure based sports, females are on such a radical clip of growth exponentially faster than, than men. Um, I don't know if they'll ever happen, but it could be that women get, um, are as closer to surfing that you can imagine men's and women's, you know, it's started right now. It's not there. There's still a Delta, but the rate of improvement is radical in the female

side of it. Okay. So, sorry, go back to like one or two takeaways from perfection point. I think one or two takeaways is the idea of perfection is, is a really good one, but just know you'll never reach it. So that's takeaway number one. It's impossible to reach it. There's no way to be perfect. There's no way that even the numbers I lay out in the book, they can't be achieved. Everything would have to be perfect and there's no such thing. So that's takeaway number one. Takeaway number two, don't let that discourage you from trying. I mean, that's the way that I look at it is like, you're never going to reach it, but that shouldn't discourage you from trying because maybe I'm way wrong. And maybe like

someone saying you're delusional, maybe I'm completely wrong and someone can prove me wrong on what I think the limit actually is and go for it. Don't let it discourage you. Let it encourage you to, I'm going to do my best. And maybe that limit is maybe I lay out in the, in the book, we set really crappy limits and this is a book about setting a limit. So maybe the limit I set is completely wrong and off base. It's my opinion based on a lot of science and a lot of fact and a lot of factors that we calculated maybe i'm wrong i love it list some of the people that have been on sports science i mean it's it's ridiculous it's ridiculous you go ben roethlisberger jerry rice larry fitzgerald and dominican sue drew breeze like it goes on and on and on and on it's

amazing like it's like like you can go on that's just i mean those are just some nfl names but you know you get kevin durant in the lab you'll I mean, those are just some NFL names, but you know, you get Kevin Durant in the lab and you'll get Clay Thompson in the lab and you get, you know, Isaiah Thomas in the lab. Like we get, we've had so many athletes. I've had the great, I've had the great privilege of having a front row seat to true greatness. So this is now a non, um, objective question I'm going to ask, but more subjective. I have two.

The first is, have you noticed any trends? In athletes? Yes. I think it's going to surprise people. When people are like, NFL players are just going to keep getting bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger. I actually don't think that's the case. I think we are seeing that the size that we currently have is working against us. And when people go, why are there, there's so many injuries. I'm like, look at how big everybody is. It's working to the disadvantage of the team. So I actually think like when people go, so you think linemen are going to be lighter? I mean, I think they're going to be lighter and more nimble and more athletic than just big. And that's what I'm seeing. Like you look at, you know, look at the position of tight end and how it's, you're seeing a change there in basketball. The center has vanished, right? I mean, nobody runs a center-based offense anymore because they've figured out, you know what I love the money ball of it all is, wow. The percentage of making a three

point shot is actually not that different than, you know, a, you know, a 14, you know, a 14 foot jump shot. And the rebounding percentage on a three point shot is actually in the offense's favor because it's going to ricochet off further than if I shoot from closer in. So when you do the math of it all, if you have somebody who can shoot a three, shoot the three. It's like, it's interesting. Like there are trends in every sport. And the biggest trend I think that, that I see is I hope, and I know this won't happen in my lifetime, but I really, I really do hope that eventually we get to a point where men and women are just playing together because I, I see very few positions in sport. Everybody immediately jumps to the NFL and they go,

no woman's going to play linemen in the NFL. I'm like, no, no normal sized human being plays linemen in the NFL. But I want to see men and women competing together at every level from youth onto professional won't happen in my lifetime. It may never happen, but I think we shouldn't separate it out because there are a lot of women that

are out there that if you lined all 7 billion people up from day one as babies and said, we're going to give you equal access to everything, how many women would play in the NBA? The answer is not zero. Okay, cool. Okay, second subject to a question. On a scale of one to 10, everyone that you've interviewed has been part of your lab experience and it's front row seat to the greats. On a scale of one to 10 of self-belief, if you took all of them together, where would you throw that dart and what target area would you imagine on that scale of one to 10? They're all of the greats.

All of the greats. All of the greats are at an 11. Yeah, it's crazy. It's crazy, right? Like you think, you look at Michael Jordan and you think like he's the greatest basketball player of all time. Yeah, but does he have the highest shooting percentage? I mean, not even close. You're like, because he believed in himself so much,

the missed shot didn't even register. It's like, whatever, the ball didn't even register. It's like, whatever. The ball didn't go in. Give me the ball again. The next one will. It doesn't matter if I miss a hundred in a row. The next one's going in. They just don't lose that belief in themselves.

It's one thing. I heard that story growing up, but I couldn't swallow it. I couldn't make it mine. And it's a whole different thing to actually believe that. And it's phenomenal. And they have it. Then the second, this is related, this is question two B, if you will. How many of them demonstrated nervousness prior to the test that you were giving them? It's interesting because that's one of the things that we're really looking for. Of the elite of the elite. Now it's interesting. So we do a combine where we'll

have most of the top guys going into the draft come in. We censor them all up and we watch heart rate and respiratory rate and all kinds of factors on when they're doing the test. The true great actually just remain calm and exactly the same. People who haven't made it yet, they can get nervous. And it's interesting. I compare it. We wired up Travis Pastrana before he was setting the world record for longest jump in a car in Long Beach. This is many years ago. I remember that. Was that No Limits? Yeah. That was No Limits. So we wired him up.

His heart rate never changed from the time he left his tent to when he got in the car to when he landed and stuff. Like, never changed. Like, that's what greatness is. We've done a lot of work with Navy SEALs and elite special forces, people who are in elite special forces. We literally, we put a sniper in a box where we covered him with ice. I remember the study bugs. We had tarantulas crawling on his face. Heart rate never changed. Just like, just nothing phases them. And that's the difference

where I would say, like where I sit, where I can be really honest with myself and say, am I in that group? The answer is no. I'm not in that group. When everything is going crazy, I haven't reached the point in my life yet where I can honestly say, oh, I just stay super calm and I can see the whole playing field. I don't have that keen sense where elite athletes do. I can be honest with myself and say, like I said, I'm not the best at anything. That's one of the reasons why is because, look, I'm stubborn, but I also, I wouldn't stay calm like a Navy SEAL would. And I wouldn't be that guy.

I was involved in a project at Red Bull a number of years ago where we wired up a elite golfer and we did a heart rate monitor and EEG. Sure. We're looking at real time brainwaves as well as heart rate, uh, elite golfer, local pro, and then kind of a weekend hack. Sure. And then we put them under different levels of pressure. And what we found is that the weekend hack, he was fine because his identity was never involved. So he would just go of his alpha and beta would activate to the threshold of what you would consider to be acceptable. And it would be right at that level. And then after he would execute the skill, it would flush up. It's like he let go and it would flush up and expand. And then it would quickly release.

So he had this ability to hold it, hold it, hold it, get through the movement and then like it would like, and then he released. And then the weekend, I'm sorry, then the local pro, the guy that everybody knows his name, you know, in the local area. And he was the, his identity was over-involved in what he would do at what he did. It was a disaster. So he couldn't maintain that limit, that, that glass ceiling, if you will, of internal arousal. And it was spiking off the charts. And at the end of the experiment, he says, oh my God, you know, I feel like I want to kill myself. I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, we got to go back and make sure we got all the chicken and egg, you know, whether it's genetic or mental skills, I want to think it's a combination of both. And the number of frames that the elite have seen, the number of experiences that they've had to rely on, you know, getting through whatever experience that they're in now. Can we learn that? Can we learn to stay calm under pressure?

A thousand percent. That's how I put food on my table. You know, it is a skill. It is an absolute skill that you absolutely can learn. Very difficult to replicate in a laboratory setting. Yeah, it is. And like, it takes time. That's why.

We've witnessed LeBron James becoming great, right? We watched him and people are like, ah, he choked in the finals. Ah, he played like, I'm like, ah, he choked in the finals. Ah, he played like, I'm like, dude, he's like 19 or 20. Like we all, we also saw Kobe Bryant, same thing. Yep. You don't miss his first big shots or whatever, quote unquote, big shots. And if you in the playoffs, right early in his career, but if you deconstruct it, he didn't see it as big. It was just another opportunity. Right. And so he just had a long-term view of his future, which, you know, anyways, yes, you can learn calm. Yes. You can learn confidence. They're

mechanical. It takes time. Right. It takes a lot of time. Okay. Speaking of time. Thank you. This is unbelievable. So what, how do you, let's kind of get right to the end of two really big bangers. Do you have a philosophy that guides your life? I do. I do. Here's what I say to myself. Good is a word you use when something is not great. Don't be scared to be great. And I, I say that and I'll say it to my wife. I'll say it to my kids. Don't be scared to be great. Like people. And when, when you say that and you hear that in your head, that's where I think like the desire to be great, to do something that's great. I can't decide whether or not it genuinely is great because time will only tell, but I can kneel down at night and say, man, I really tried to be

great. I really tried. And it guides me. And I say, yep, you know what? I'm going to good as a word to use when something is not great. Don't be scared to be great. And then how do you operationalize or define great? I think you define great as it has differentiated itself in a positive way amongst the competitive field, whatever that is. It somehow is different. And this is how I'll define greatness. I say Nirvana smells like teen spirit. Is that a great song? Now, if you sit back and you say musically, like note for note, is that a great song? You're

like, well, there's not. Like is Bach or Beethoven, is that a better composition? Smells Like Teen Spirit changed the musical world. That's a great song. It made more than a dent in the musical universe. Now, when they were writing that song, did they intend on that to happen? They thought it was certainly good enough to be good to put out in the universe and they thought it was great. Like, sure. They wouldn't have done it otherwise. Turns out it was. When you're doing something and you're saying, is it great or not? You can't tell right this second, but it's fine to tell yourself, you know what? I believe that it's good enough to be good, to be considered good out in the world. I can just, I just know it objectively. I can say that my song is good enough to be considered good.

Is it great? I can think it's great, but I won't know. Cool. Very cool. It's clean. It's really clean for you. And then the last kind of big banger is how do you think about, define, articulate the concept of mastery? I think mastery is finding a system that works for you where whatever it is that you're doing, you win on a repeated basis. A. B, you're not satisfied with winning. That's how you know you're trying to achieve mastery. In that way, I would define no one ever becomes a genuine master. Like I'm the master of everything. I'm the master of whatever. But what I mean by you find a system that works for you and wins every time that goes down to when you are interacting with somebody at the store,

did you make them happy? I mean, were they glad that they met you as a random person or did you make them mad? Like the way that you did that. If you're standing at a free throw line, did you make, were you 10 for 10? Like, did you actually master that? And there are very few things in life where you can say, well, I've mastered it all. You can master in increments and you can master in small increments. Can I play my scales on my guitar? Can I play them wickedly fast? Can I play them backward? Yeah, it works every single time. I've got that. Now let's do my chords. Can I play every version of that chord? Yeah, I can do that. Now let's go, do you know jazz chords? Do you know rock chords? Like you keep going on and you master by winning

in increments. So you win every time you've developed a system, but you're, you have the foresight to know I'm not happy with just winning that thing. Cause there's something else I have to go in. That's my definition. Very cool. Very cool. Thoughtful. different than i've heard from anyone else so far i don't know if it's a good if that's a good cool you look to me you're like cool no no no it's new and so and but you also were able to break it down right so the two elements are understand your system that allows you to win and also recognize that winning is not the end game. It's not. Yeah. Right. This moves on. It's like, yeah, I won that, but there's a lot more, there's more to it. So I can't say I'm a master yet. And that is finding mastery. There isn't,

is there such a thing as being a master? And I'd say depends on your parameters. I haven't met anyone that says I'm a master. Oh God. I mean, who could, who could be a math? I mean, if you say to Michael Jordan, were you a master basketball player? He's going to say, I was, I was really good. I was the best. Yeah. I'm the best, but I could, you know, I could always be better. That's crazy.

I mean, that's, yeah, it's cool. That's how you have to think. Okay. Your book, where can we find it? The perfection point, any bookstore, any website. What's next for you? What's next for me is going to be an exciting frontier. I'm entering a stage where I've been around doing entertainment ventures and I've created a really solid foundation to take that to the next level. I mean, I've been very fortunate in that I have been successful in various ventures.

And when I say good fortune, there was no guarantee. And, you know, I tried really, really hard. What you're going to see from me next is to take my current skillset and go up a notch, just take it to the next level. That's what you're going to see. And in what form that happens, I think you're going to see music. I think you're going to see television. I think that you're going to see new media. I think that the, the entertainment landscape is changing so fast. It's hard for us to keep up with it, but you know, like everything I've got this vision and idea of where I think we need to go and where things are going to be five years from now. And you better be starting now because if you start

five years from now, you're going to be way behind the game. Very cool. And Brink of Midnight. Brink of Midnight, the podcast we do Brink of, you can go to brinkofmidnight.com. It's on every platform. Obviously it's anywhere that podcasts can be found and Brink of Midnight, the band. So Lizzie and I write music. You can check out all of our music, you know, it's on everywhere that music is available. We wrote a Christmas song that ended up charting. It was just an awesome experience and really fueled our desire to want to make more music. And we're continuing to make more music.

And it's a genuine passion of ours. I just think music is that thing of if I were to pick one thing, one thing that I was really, really excellent at, it would be a musician. It'd be jazz for me. Yeah. Like, can you imagine? I like, I'm a, we've written, we write songs and you know, I can, I can, I'm, I'm a decent guitar player, decent musician. Can you imagine just, can you imagine being an amazing, great, amazing musician? It's a beautiful, beautiful art. It is powerful too. It's a language of the world. Yeah. And then, okay. So those are two, uh, any, any other places, social media, social media, check us out on brink of midnight, you know, on, on all social platforms. You can find me on Twitter at John Brinkus,

J O H N B RK-U-S underscore. Yeah. And just keep a lookout, you know, because there are big things ahead. I love that. Got me curious. Okay, good. I know you're being vague for a reason and that's fine. Okay. And then folks, if you enjoyed this type of conversation, which is an exploratory, insight-driven,

curious conversation, definitely check out Brink of Midnight. And the conversations are about important moments in people's lives. And check that out because there's something there. And I highly encourage you to go tune in and listen and subscribe as well. So John, thank you for your time. Thank you for introducing two shows that I was familiar with from a long time ago that have been fun to see how you've been able to shape the landscape of sport and science put together. So thank, and thank you for the time today. Thank you so much. You're amazing. Honestly. No, it's great. Thank you. All right.

Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no-cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're listening. Also, if you haven't already, please consider dropping us a review on Apple or Spotify. We are incredibly grateful for the support and feedback. If you're looking for even more insights, we have a newsletter we send out every Wednesday.

Punch over to findingmastery.com slash newsletter to sign up. This show wouldn't be possible without our sponsors, and we take our recommendations seriously. And the team is very thoughtful about making sure we love and endorse every product you hear on the show. If you want to check out any of our sponsor offers you heard about in this episode, you can find those deals at Finding Mastery dot com slash sponsors. And remember, no one does it alone.

The door here at Finding Mastery is always open to those looking to explore the edges and the reaches of their potential so that they can help others do the same. So join our community, share your favorite episode with a friend, and let us know how we can continue to show up for you. Lastly, as a quick reminder, information in this podcast and from any material on the Finding Mastery website and social channels is for information purposes only. If you're looking for meaningful support, which we all need, one of the best things you can do is to talk to a licensed professional.

So seek assistance from your healthcare providers. Again, a sincere thank you for listening. Until next episode, be well be well think well keep exploring