Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Jon Gordon: Storytelling

Episode Date: December 16, 2015

If you’ve ever found yourself wondering if you’ve made the mistake of trading your deepest talents — for the security of a good-paying-gig — I think you’ll appreciate the shift that Jon Gordon made mid-stride on his career path. Gordon's best-selling books and talks have inspired readers and audiences around the world. His principles have been put to the test by numerous NFL, NBA, MLB coaches and teams, Fortune 500 companies, school districts, hospitals and non-profits. Show Notes: 8:02: Where he got his writing ability "Looking back, I realized you had to lose a goal to find your destiny" 12:10 20:12: How faith drives him 32:15: How he dealt with the loss of his mother 39:25: Process of changing his career from a restaurant owner to an author "I believe when you're open and you're willing and you're just willing for the possible, the possible comes" 43:19 50:30: His thoughts on Ernest Hemingway's quote "Write drunk, edit sober" 55:26: Detailing the process of getting his manuscript into publication 1:02:08: Most difficult time in his life 1:13:58: Phrase that defines what he understands most in life "I care about being my best" 1:15:10 1:24:00: How to get it back when you're off 1:28:06: Importance of the mental aspect of his craft 1:36:45: Defining mastery_________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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which is how they see themselves and how they see or have come to understand how the world works, but also understand their robust and sturdy practices that have allowed them to come to understand their potential or to explore their potential or even struggle with their potential. And so that's the craft development side. The first part is the psychology.

The second part is the craft development, which in the craft development, there's three parts. We can train our mind, we can train our craft, and we can train our body. And so working to understand the sturdy and robust practices, we're not looking for tricks and tips and mini hacks, if you will, of how to get better. We're looking for the long play the long game and in essence the hope is that we'll provide through these conversations ways that we can all train our mind and our craft in a similar fashion to some of the world's exceptional performers and again as a footnote that with a large asterisk next to it the ultimate goal is to not follow the path of these men and women and not to do what they've done, but rather work to understand what they're searching for

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slash finding mastery. And this episode is with John Gordon. There's a lot of spiritual stuff in this early on. And so afterwards, when John and I talked about our conversation, we both laughed, like saying, OK, maybe give a little plug or reminder for people to stay with it, because it does get moving to the spiritual side for an extended period of the conversation. And that's because that's the essence of his psychological framework and it's a question i have a deep understand it's a question and um a path that is is rich for my life and i want to understand it from as many different frameworks as i can to help calibrate and refine and um and discount and invite new ideas around the path okay we, we can talk about that more later. But we get into the mental side of the game. We get into the craft development side in very important ways.

And why pay attention to John? One, he's an author and he's written 12 books. One of them is a children's book. He writes in fables and he's a storyteller. And the way that he does what he does is that he takes a concept that is principle-based, that's very important for anybody on the path of mastery, and he writes a story about it. And if you haven't had the chance to read one of John's books, I encourage you to go pick one up. They're great. And if you do a quick search for John, J-O-N, Gordon, you'll see all of his books. And you'll notice them by the familiar theme of color on his jackets of his books.

They all have a similar feel in the coloring. And so the first one I was exposed to was The Energy Bus, and it's obviously great. Okay, so why pay attention? He's a reminder for all of us of the importance of what it feels like when we're stuck and the process to go through to basically find a path that has meaning. So he talks about when he was lost and he was down

and he was out and he was really struggling and he was not the man he wanted to be, but he had this pressure to provide for his wife and his two children when he was around the age of 30. And he just felt like he had more to give and he had more to do in life but he was stuck and that stuckness i i think we can all relate to that like the question are we doing what we set out to do are we expressing our gifts and refining our natural gifts and are we cultivating the things that we're good at that we can bring into the world um for the joy of bringing into the world to make a difference but also like the path of of being able to provide well for our family and so there's the the teeter-totter balance between those in modern times and so he's a reminder of that process that i think many of us face

and i hope that i'll face it again at some point in my life. Like, am I on the path doing exactly the way that I'm setting out to do it? Or have I been disrailed at some point? And so he's a reminder of that for all of us. And he talks about the pressure of having to provide at the same time wanting to be authentic and true to himself. So that's at the kind of center of the crossroads. You've heard us talk about this concept from clarity to conviction.

And once you have clarity, you can earn the right to have conviction once you face down challenges and tests. And then what a reward it is to be on the other side, to be able to know that you have conviction and look forward to the opportunities to test yourself. And he added another important element is that he says the way that he found clarity is first by connection. So it's a nice little CCC here that, you know, from connection, which I'm totally going to add this to my model, from connection, then we can get to clarity.

And then from that clarity, when we refine and develop our skills and we can get to clarity and then from that clarity when we refine and develop our skills and we can put that clarity to test we have the right for conviction so the connection part is what he's offering in this conversation so what does he mean by connection the way he finds connection is through his spiritual path and he talks about the importance of mindfulness and meditation in his in his development and how he's been a student of that for a long time. So I'm excited to introduce John for those of you who haven't met him and those of you who do know John to be able to take another look at the way he thinks about the development of craft and the process of becoming. And another footnote that I think is just a wonderful,

nice little gem is that as soon as John and I met, it was a while back. And as soon as we met, we were talking about writing of books and getting ideas out. And he was well down the path. I mean, he'd already written many books. And he's been a great asset. And a regular, he just pings me on a regular basis.

Hey, how you coming? How you doing? Like he really cares. So John, if you're listening again, thank you. And I hope we all have people in our lives that help us and guide us and nudge us and challenge us to be better. So for this path about the getting the ideas

out of my head to write a book, I want to thank you, John, for it. And with that, let's get into it. I think that there's so many important nuggets that he talks about that are very applied, very practical. And so I'm looking forward to learning on the other side. So hit us on Twitter and Instagram. You can find him at John Gordon on Twitter.

And let's keep this conversation going. Okay, with that, here goes John Gordon. John, thanks for coming on the show. My pleasure to be with you, Michael. Yeah, I'm really excited for this for a couple reasons. One is because of what you stand for and who you are as a man. First and foremost, I think is going to be really deeply interesting to me to unpack, but I'm assuming that other folks are going to want to know more about you as well. And then the second is the process that you've

been able to go through to be able to capture the insights through storytelling that have allowed people to live a better life and to take the insights that you've gathered and apply them into whatever craft they're interested in. And what I'm referencing is the the insights that you've gathered and apply them into whatever craft they're interested in. And what I'm referencing is the 12 books that you've written. And as an undercurrent, I can't figure out how to get one book out of my head and you've got 12. So, there's going to be lots of questions on how.

And so, you know, maybe we could just jump right in and you can, can you first tell us, obviously, you know, you've got a, a history and ability to be able to write well, where did that first start from? Well, I never was a writer. It wasn't like it was something I, I thought I would do. Around 31 years old, I was really miserable, negative, unhappy with my life. I was working for a dot-com at the time. I had been in the restaurant business, but then had an opportunity to go work for this dot-com and I thought I was going to make my millions pursuing that. And one day my wife came up to me and she said, you're miserable, you're negative, you're unhappy all the time. She said, I love you, but I'm not going to spend my life with someone who's so unhappy all the time and who makes me miserable. She's like, you got to change. And I remember that

day, like it was yesterday. It was a huge wake up call for me, Michael. And I just said, you know what? I've got to change. Like, what is wrong with me? Like, why am I so unhappy? Why am I so miserable? Because I wasn't always that way. And I realized that I wasn't living my purpose. So I said, God, why am I here? Like, what am I born to do? Like, I know I'm here for a reason. I just felt like I was trapped and I felt like I was meant to do something. And then writing and speaking just kept on coming to me. And I never did it before, but it just kept on coming to me. And I was always inspired by different books that I had read in the past. And so I really felt like I was supposed to write, but I didn't know what I would write and speak about. But that began the journey of just thinking, okay, I'm going to start writing

and speaking. It's something I'm just going to start doing. Okay. When you said, so I've got three questions, but let me be strategic with these, meaning let me just slow them down and get them out of my head. One is, I want to know how long you were in pain for, like how long did that last for you? And the second is that, like when you said writing and speaking came to me, does that mean that, I don't know, I don't know what to make of that. Like, what does that mean? Right. For me, it's an insight. It's a, it's a knowing. I don't hear the words it's not like God's speaking to me but I hear it's like a feeling and a knowing it's like a download that's in my brain and I receive it and that's how actually my books come as well so it's just a receiving a vision and I see and almost feel and just know the words that come.

Oh my goodness. Okay. I want to understand that because that sounds like you're tapping into something that it's like in psychology or spiritual theologians will talk about tapping into the unconscious conscious or tapping into the river of knowledge, whatever the phrase might be. It sounds like what you're saying is I just sense it. I feel it. I'm open to it. And bang, it comes out.

It comes out of me. Okay. Now, but there's a gap here where you are struggling. You're 31. Your wife called you on it. And you knew that you were, based on what you just described, that you knew you were upside down and emotionally not who you set out to be. And she called you on it and you knew that to be true. But how long had that been going for you? Probably about three years, three to four years.

I had this time when I was 24, I opened up a restaurant and bar In Buckhead in Atlanta So I'm 24 I did that Then I started a non-profit Raising money for youth focused charities So I was doing that So I was moving and shaking And I ran for city council at 26 I walked door to door to 7,000 houses

I was winning the election And then they came after me Because they were so scared of this young guy Who's like taking this election by storm next you know this negativity these lies and I wind up losing a close election but it was a great experience at the time I really thought my life was over I remember looking back thinking oh my god this is you know part of my my plan this was part of my my destiny I was supposed to be in politics I was a political science major policy analysis I was government economics I'm like all right you know I always thought that's

what I wanted to do looking back I realized you have to lose a goal to find your destiny but I was always doing something like that and then uh got got into this dot com and thought okay I'm gonna make my millions but it was during that time that I just kept on feeling more and more stifled and more and more unhappy with my life. I had two young children. So I think the pressure and the stress of having to provide for this family at 28, 29 years old, two young children, a wife, and then feeling like I was meant to do more, but I wasn't doing it,

I think that's where all the pain was coming from. So I've come to know you as a man of faith and have a deep spiritual path that you're on. Where was your spiritual journey at that point? Was it muted? Was it just in the background? Was it not relevant? I was pretty stuck at that point, spiritually, not very connected.

In my 20s, I was a new ager. I was a, you know, a seeker, studied Buddhism, stayed a lot of meditation, which, you know, still, still love. And really was, was, was I, I would say I was seeking God, looking for God in that time, not really feeling God's presence in my life. And then I would say 28, 29, 30, 31, I don't even know if God was there. God was probably there, I just didn't feel it or know it. So what is your thoughts about God and how he works with people? And, you know, I don't know if this is even, I'm just, I'm curious because you reference your spiritual journey so often. Where is God in the darkness, in pain, in the turmoil that's in life globally that we're experiencing? Or

maybe even more nuanced, where was he during that time in your life when you were lost? Right. They call it the dark night of the soul for a reason. I'm reading a great book right now called Soul Keeping by John Orberg. It's one of the best books I've ever read in terms of soul, God, in terms of all that. Interestingly enough, the word psyche actually means soul. That's right.

Psyche was meant to be the study, the nurturing of the soul, not focusing on behavior, but actually the soul. That's where all healing comes from in the soul. So my belief about God is that if you ask people why they don't believe in God, they would say it's because of suffering, that there's suffering in the world. But if you ask believers when their faith grew the most, it was during their suffering. So I think it's interesting that suffering seems to play a part in both. But a good friend of mine who's a pastor, Erwin McManus, who I just love, you know, we were talking one night, he said, John, some people just don't believe in God because of the suffering. But I tell them, okay, there's no God. All right, there's no God. You don't believe in God. There's no God. Is there still suffering? Yes, there is. So who's responsible for the suffering then if you don't believe in God? So during those moments, I believe

we need God for the suffering we go through. And we don't know why we deal with these struggles. We don't know why they're part of our journey, but we know that we grow from them. We know that there's more, at least I believe that there's more to this world and to our existence than just this world. And so I believe in our suffering and our challenges and our struggles, we come to something beyond ourselves. I meet so many athletes that have a lot of faith because in their journey to be great, to strive for greatness, they all come to a place where they realize they can't do it alone. And they also felt something carrying them that was beyond them, spirit, higher power, whatever you want to call it. They felt something greater carrying them to the finish line.

And I think anyone who's ever strived for greatness or hit that wall has found something more. And so for me, God is that something more. And do you, is your orientation of God, that God is passive or active? I believe God is very active in our lives. So kind of like he's a personal God. So he's got a plan and he guides and shifts and shapes and puts people in other people's lives for a reason. Yes.

So that's how I think of active. And then passive, the way I understand it, is that God set this thing in motion and he said, Hot damn, I hope you guys get some of this right. I'm here for you. But God, I gave you free will. That was hard to do. And it's tough to see you blowing it and it's beautiful to see you doing right. And so that's more of a passive God as an active God.

Right. I'm a big believer in an active God because I've seen the activity in my life. I've personally experienced so many miracles that I just cannot account for by myself. I've literally seen God working in my life. Here's how I equate it, Michael. I have a lot of friends who've experienced the same things, right? We all talk about it. It's not an accident. Like we've all had such similar experiences. So it's like if you've had the chocolate cake at a great restaurant, and I haven't, but someone else has had the chocolate cake, and you guys talk about the chocolate cake, I haven't experienced it, so I really can't equate or feel what you guys are talking about.

But if you've had the cake, you know how good it is. Well, I've had the cake, and I meet other guys and other women who have had the cake, and we talk about it. But if you haven't had the cake, you just haven't experienced the cake yet. But if you did, you would know and know how real it is. You just haven't had it yet. And I believe that's sort of a spiritual journey that we're all on. When you experience it, you know it.

And maybe if you just don't feel it, you haven't had the cake yet. Okay. Is this the title of a new book? The titles of your books are unbelievable, by the way. What do you think about that? I mean, does that make sense? Well, you know, I hear, what I hear you saying is that once you've been touched by something, and whatever you might call it, this is me filtering what you just said. Once you've been touched by something, or you've experienced something that's beautiful, and it's caught you,

and there's a sense of awe with it, whatever might be it could be i want to tell you a quick story it could be a sunset it could be a beautiful image it could be a heartfelt emotion and it but it's striking and it grabs you and it pulls you all in and i mean all in that there's different words and experiences for that all in some people. It's a misguided, they come out of it in a misguided direction. And I'm using the word miss because they're chasing more of those as opposed to seeking what allowed that to take place. And the more of those is like a collector of moments as opposed to, hey, what was that to take place. And the more of those is like a collector of moments as opposed to, hey, what was that? How did I position myself?

What is the reason for that? Is this of this world? Is it not of this world? And there's this literally quest to figure it out. And so I think that the way I experience what you've just said is, yeah, once you've tasted something or experienced something that has awe in it, that there's a compelling nature to say, or I'm sorry, a compelling nature to want to share it with others. And it's almost difficult by definition to put words to it.

And so that's the way I understand it. I love that. Yes, because you really can't put words, God's ways are not our ways, and God's thoughts are greater than our thoughts. So it's so hard to put those words to it. But when I meet so many people who've had the same experiences in the same way, different experiences, but the same feeling in the same way, you go, okay, that can't be an accident that all these people of different backgrounds, different lives, different journeys, all come to this moment where they have similar experiences. I mean, I know, for instance, you know, I wasn't always like this. I didn't always have this kind of faith, but I do know it has driven me to do what I do. It drives me to be the person I am. It's transformed my heart from negative to

positive. I know I wouldn't be writing, so people who like my books and read my books, I always say, hey, if you like my books, then you have to know that the spirit from which they're written and the power behind them, because you can't like one without the other. We love Mother Teresa. We love Martin Luther King Jr. We love what these people represent. Well, we have to remember the power behind them that moved them to do what they do. So my actions are driven by a desire to love and to serve, not to judge,

but to truly love others and to hopefully bring out the best in others. And so it's not a judging faith. It's not a faith that wants to condemn anyone. I just want to love people and hopefully be a model of that. There you go. Okay. So when we talk about psychological framework, the reason that during this conversation between you and I, there's no way that we would escape the conversation of spirit because of the animation of that, that you have captured through

your ways of living and your writing, the craft that you have. So, it's the animation of spirit that I think sets the tone for your psychological framework. So, first, it was the finding of spirit for you. This is me thinking about you. It was the finding of the spirit through suffering and pain. And then for some reason, I don't know why, you turned to God. I don't know why you did that. And maybe we can get to that in a moment. But then you took the animation you received and took the animation of spirit and then turned it into a craft where it's present. And that's essentially your psychological framework. And so as we're trying to unpack or decode the way that bright minds and people that are on the path of mastery are doing what they're doing, I don't think it's going to get more complicated than that for you.

I love it. You know, you just summed it up in such simple, powerful words because I listen to your podcast all the time, one of my favorite podcasts on the planet. I hear you unpack things from others, but having it done to you, having it so succinct and you nailed it. I'm just in awe right now and laughing. It's just, it's a back of the earth.

I love it. Okay. So see if you can go into like this little, a quick little moment in time where you realized you're in suffering. Your, your wife was helping you through it by saying hey this this there's a change that needs to take place for you and then can you go into the particular moment in time when you made a decision or you turned to god or

moved away from god like can you is there a specific moment in time when you realized that you were connected to, what is the word that you used? The, I can't remember the calling or something where it was like, it's just in you. Was there a specific moment in time? And knowing, yes, it was when I just said, God, why am I here? I was literally in tears. Okay. Okay. I know I'm here for a reason. But why did you turn to God? What is my purpose? So it was that moment I just reached out to God.

Like, God. But why God? Why God? Because you could have turned to drugs. You could have turned to working harder. You could have turned to blaming her. You could have divorced. You could have, you know, just gone to a million different things.

Why did you do the introspective conversation? And not everyone listening cares about God and not, maybe some people love God, some people don't even know what it is. Some people say it's, religion is the opiate for the masses and Karl Marx and Nietzsche and, wait a minute, not Karl Marx. Was it Karl Marx that said it was opiate for the masses or Nietzsche? Oh, jeez, I'm blanking right now. But anyways, that religion is the opiate of the masses, that it just keeps people stuck and shallow.

So why did you turn to God in that moment? All I can say is because the soul knows. In John Orford's book that I've been reading, it's so powerful. It talks about how God who created us and created the soul, the soul has a longing and a neediness. And it was meant to be needy for God. Like God created us with this neediness to long for the source that created it to be one. So I believe in that moment I was reaching out for oneness to be one with the God that created me. And so I was reaching out for that

because the soul needs and longs. And if it's not getting its needs met to be matched or be one with its source, what happens is the soul then reaches out for neediness of other things. And that's where addiction comes from that's where all these issues that we have with people seeking to fill themselves up with something when really what they need is to be one with their source so actually if you look

at addicts they're actually very spiritual people again i'm not religious. I'm spiritual. What's the difference for you? For me, it's a difference of I'm not following rules. I'm not following legalism. I follow Jesus. And I grew up Jewish. I was bar mitzvahed. And then years later, again, after this experience with God of reaching out several more experiences happened after that and listening to some sermons that a friend

gave me and really interesting different moments where I felt God's voice where I saw signs that were meant for me and really again miraculous kind of things for me why I said all right I, I'm going to start following Jesus. And the more I started to learn about Jesus and follow Jesus, I said, yes, that's the way. And a good friend said, don't let Christians keep you from Jesus. And I looked at Jesus and I started to look at who Jesus was, what he said, what he did.

And I was like, oh, my God, now that's what I want to follow. The more I read, the more I felt inspired to live that way. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentus. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday, what you put in your body matters. And that's why I trust Momentus. From the moment I sat down with Jeff Byers, their co-founder and CEO, I could tell this was not your average supplement company. And I was immediately drawn to their mission, helping people achieve performance for life. And to do that, they developed what they call the Momentus

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and use the code findingmastery20 at felixgray.com for 20% off. And so, man, I feel like we're getting, I don't want to say stuck on this concept of spirit, but the animation of your work is this is the foundation of it. So I think we need to keep going here. I didn't expect this conversation to go in this direction. Yeah, that's what's fun about the conversations for me is that I have no idea where we're going. But let's just keep it rolling here is that because, okay, now if we go back to kind of the source of which your framework sits on, which is your spiritual faith or your spiritual connection, if you will, then I can't imagine what

it was like for you to say to your family of origin, mom in particular, possibly, like, hey, you know how the whole thing that we did in our family and the Jewish culture and faith, like, I'm choosing a different way. How did that go? Yeah, that was challenging to talk to my family about it. My stepfather, who was my dad, he raised me since i was five so i hate that term stepfather so he was italian and catholic my mom was jewish so we always celebrated all the holidays but we never went to temple we never went to church and my mom really didn't know much about religion or the old testament or anything like that but okay she was she was very strong in her jewish culture and what i explained to her is I'm not leaving the culture.

I'm still very proud of my Jewish heritage and my Jewish tradition and faith. And I actually am a better Jew now as a follower of Jesus than I was as just a Jew. Okay, cool. I know so much about the Old Testament. I know about the history. I know about the history. I know about the story. And there's such tremendous power in that faith, in that story of, you know, the Jews and God and their relationship. And so very powerful story that so many can glean from that and find strength in. So I love that. So when I tell my mom, though, it was hard because she felt like I was going to a different team.

And I was trying to explain to her, no, we're all just one team. So mom was a little bit of a risk taker as well as a Jewish woman. And then something happened with your dad. I don't know what that, I want to ask what happened with your biological dad. But then she married, I would imagine, a man from another faith, which is a big risk move in the Jewish community. It was, it was. So she and my biological father divorced when I was one.

She had me when she was 23. She was married to him when she was 18. So it was a very dysfunctional marriage from the very beginning. He was a psychotherapist and is still a social worker psychotherapist to this day. But he left and she was a single mom now raising two kids. And so I think the world of my mom, you know, I love my mom more than anything. My mom passed away nine years ago of cancer at 59. And interestingly

enough, she read my book, The Energy Bus, the manuscript right before it was published. So she got a chance to at least read that book, which was very special for me. That's a whole other story. But, but, um, wait, wait, wait, no, no, no. Let's go into that story. Yeah. So, so she was, she's dying of cancer and I wrote this book and I'd already shared with her you know about my you know my faith and one of our last conversations was you know who am I to say that Jesus wasn't who he said he was you know maybe he was and that was one of our last conversations we talked about about faith and then um one of our last times together she made me a sandwich before my trip back to to north florida she lives in south florida and so she makes me the sandwich

you know thinking i would starve if i didn't have something to eat on the drive home five hours you know jewish mom all about food and so i didn't think much about the sandwich at the time but that was the last time I saw her fully conscious was when she made me that sandwich so I often think about that sandwich often she read the energy bus and sure enough it gets published comes out in 2007 she died in 2006 and it's funny in some ways I feel like she's been behind it or with it or pushing it you know like telling people hey like early on because you know almost didn't get published and finally it did and none of the books would carry it it's it's an amazing journey that i went on

with that of all the rejection and the adversity and challenges but it's amazing i felt like i want to get to all of that and I want to go back to the sandwich. Were you in her kitchen? Were you in the living room? I was in her living room while she made the sandwich. While she made the sandwich, she was in the kitchen, but we were in the kitchen together initially. What do you remember?

You say you think about it often, and there's a reason why I wonder. Here she was battling cancer, and her biggest priority was to make me a sandwich. So I often think about that. It's not about the big things that we do to show people we love them. Serving others and loving them is really about those little things. And to me, that sandwich represents everything. She's battling cancer. She's exhausted.

And she just wanted to make me that sandwich before I left. It was so important to her and so love is the doing of kindness yes and love is food yeah yeah yeah right there's such a there's but there's a caringness with uh with preparing meals for others or preparing something for others. Yeah. Okay. And then what do you wish you had said more of or done less of? And I'm asking because of my relationship with my mom. I don't know many people that have lost their parents or their mom. And I'm just wondering what you could teach me and maybe us about relationships with their parents. Sure.

Well, she didn't really tell me how bad it was at the time, so she was sort of keeping that for me, and so was my dad. So I wish I would have had more time with her from that moment of making the sandwich to her dying and really driving down there, racing down to see her. She's like on her deathbed. I wish I would have had more time with her. I wish I would have had one more walk with her

because our thing was always to walk together. She was a walking machine. She was 5'2", a fireball. And I have to say that, you know, I just think if I could just have one more walk with her where we just walk and talk, that's what I would long for. So I guess my advice to others

would be to say, you know, we hear it all the time and it sounds trivial, but to make every moment count and to make that time that you have with the ones you love really special and meaningful, because you just never know. Yeah, I hear that. And when there's conflict or when there's busyness or when there's strain in relationships, how do you move through that so that you can be more connected to every moment counting? The key is to really focus on what matters most. And if you really do focus on love and the foundation is love, that's how you cut through everything else. It's like we're not always going to agree, but we love each other. And out of that love, we might agree to disagree, but our foundation is love. Our foundation is honoring each other, respecting each other, spending time together, loving each other, and just really focusing on what matters most.

I often say when I speak to sports teams, I say I say, you know, if you want to work harder, you have to care more. Because if you care, you're actually going to work hard out of that caring. Well, guess what? If you love, you're going to make what matters most a priority. Yeah, it's such a great insight

as you talk about translating what you learned from that sandwich, the making of that sandwich with your mom, to sport, which is when people care deeply, people work hard at the world stage. They're all working pretty damn hard. But when they care more, they're more open and vulnerable to feeling pain. Because losses can be painful for some if their model is awry. For the most healthy, if you will, of us,

an instant loss on a game is like, well, that's okay. So that's some information too, but loss and grief are not thinly sliced. And so when we care deeply and we work harder, we put ourselves in a vulnerable position to feel loss and to also put ourselves in a position to feel the reward of accomplishment when things work out in favor. So it's that vulnerability that I find to be really challenging. And I call it X minus one. So if we know that Y equals X for most people, whatever Y and X are, and it's not quite this complicated

or quite this simple, of course. But what people that want to play it safe do is they say Y equals X minus one. So I'm going to do X minus one, just a little bit less to protect myself. And it's a shortcut way, it's a surefire way to not being able to pursue potential because it's a shortcut way it's a surefire way to to um not being able to pursue potential because it's a safe route it's not not going that extra um you know let's strike

the word extra it's not putting yourself fully invested in something that's awesome yeah i love that yeah yeah okay so um let's let's come back to uh you get the manuscript out of you, and it comes out of you because somehow you are connected, and it just spilled out. And so a scientist would probably call that the zone or flow state, and you're calling it like a spiritual connectivity, and the words are just coming. And how is it from that point that you were able to put it into manuscript and then talk us through how many times you were rejected, you know, that process of actually getting your first publication on shelves? Sure. Well, I'm walking one day, and I'm struggling. You know, I decided I was going to write and speak. This was something I was going to write and speak. This was something I was going to do.

I had opened up a restaurant with the goal of making enough money that would allow me to write and speak. So a couple of years after opening this restaurant, it finally started to do well. But I knew it was time to sell. So I sold it. And during that time, my wife was really concerned because I was selling the restaurant and saying, OK, honey, I'm now going to focus on writing and speaking of what I was truly meant to do. And she said, no, no, but you aren't even good. Like, you can't do that. And she seriously was very concerned.

I said, no, I have to do it. She was, what happens if it doesn't work? I said, there are no other options. I didn't have a plan B. So I sold the restaurant and now was really just left to write and speaking. But for about six months, I was struggling.

Like nothing was happening. You know, no speaking engagements were coming in. I wasn't able to really write much. How much did you sell your restaurant for? You mean money-wise? Yeah, like I'm thinking about runway. Yeah, so I had about two years, about two years of,

that could have carried me for two years. Okay, all right. Living with my family. There you go, okay. So I knew I had about two years, but now we're six months in, and it doesn't matter how long you have. I meet a lot of people, even in the coaching profession, right?

They lose their job. They don't want to spend what they're keeping for retirement. They want to now make new money and use that. And so for me, the idea of having this money, doing them away and not knowing if this is going to work was a scary thought. Of course. And very fearful. Okay, so, we're about six months in.

Wait, I'm sorry. Go into the decision making to sell. Okay? Because that decision, that's a big time risk move, right? I'm going to take the cow that is feeding us right now

and I'm going to walk away from it. And so, and I'm going to take the cow that is feeding us right now, and I'm going to walk away from it. And I'm going to let somebody else milk that cow and know that they're going to have a steady life. And I'm going to take a risk and go a different venture with my two kids and my wife. Okay, walk us into, because so many of us are down a path and we feel like it's too late and we're already doing the thing that we know and to make a change is just too much. And maybe rightly so, some of us don't have a two and a half year kind of runway or treasure chest to be able to bank on.

But how did you go from the steady process of knowing and betting on your income. Walk us through that. Okay. Well, first and foremost, when I opened up this restaurant, we second mortgaged our home, $20,000 in credit cards, and put everything we had into this one restaurant. It was a Moe's Southwest Grill franchise. It was the first Moe's in Florida, the sixth Moe's in the entire country. So if this place doesn't make it, we are in big trouble. Okay, stop there. Okay, all right, good.

So then did you have kids at that point? Did I what? Did you have kids at that point? Yes, oh yes, two young children at that time. Okay, so let's go into that. What allowed you to double down and go into big debt with two kids as an early family though and place that risk? My wife and I talked about it and it was a really scary time, but she was like, we're young, let's go for it. We just have to go for it. No fear, let's just jump in. I mean, I admit I

violated all business plans and I'm not saying everyone should follow my lead. So this doesn't mean, hey, everyone listening should just go do this, right? For me, it was just a feeling of, hey, I have to go for this. My wife was real supportive and said, hey, let's do this. I knew I wanted to write and speak. I knew that this was a good franchise possibility because it was so new, but I had a feeling it could work. Now, again, we're talking about miracles.

I almost dropped the deal because in the location that I was looking at, the landlord was being really challenging. The company that I was working with, the parent company at the time, was being challenging. So I almost walked away. But we decided to go to the movies one night.

And this huge movie theater was right near this location that we had chosen for the most that we thought would be a great spot. Well, we go to the movies that night and our friends just invited us to go to the movies. So we weren't planning on it. We don't usually go to the movies in this area, but we went there. That's where they wanted to go. I said, oh, I thought we were going to the beach. They said, no, no, we're going to Tinseltown. So we drive to Tinseltown.

The place was so crowded, the movie theater. The only spot to park was literally in front of the spot where the restaurant would be. I got out of the car. My wife did. I said, oh my God, I had this feeling like goosebumps. I cannot describe it. Again, a miracle. And the feeling was, we're supposed to do it. My wife said, I think we're supposed to do it. I said, I know, I just got the same feeling.

So we said, all right, let's do it. So I called up the next day, the landlord, he goes, I'm glad you called. He's like, I've been a little, you know, difficult. I know I'm ready to do the deal. Called up the parent company. They're like, Hey, we've been challenging. Let's do the deal. It was, it was wild how it all fell into place. Okay. So there's two parts there. One is the feeling that you had. And the second is the action that you took. So oftentimes people get a feeling, right? And they'll watch something or hear something or feel something. And let's make it really small. Like, like somebody on Santa Monica, you know, where there's like, uh, people entertaining walking up and down the

street and you see this wonderfully talented guitarist and you're like, God, you know what? I want to pick up, um, I want to pick up the guitar. Because you have this feeling like you want to do this, but then the action doesn't take place. So, okay, two more vectors as we go just a little bit further. One is what do you think allowed you to have the feeling? What allowed me to have the feeling? Yeah. I think I'm just always open.

I'm willing. I was on a know a spiritual journey at that point and just open I believe when you're open and you're you're willing and you're just willing to for the possible the possible comes okay and then what gave you what allowed you to take the action and to see it all the way through and stick with it? So I think that's something my wife says that I have a gift with in terms of I have a feeling and I just, I'm bold and I just take action. So you're right. Some people don't take action when they have the feeling.

I've always trusted my gut, my intuition, and my feeling. And I guess I have a knowing when I'm supposed to do something. It's very clear to me. And so I just supposed to do something. It's very clear to me. And so I just go and take action. I believe that clarity comes from connection. So when you have a connection to your source, there's a lot of clarity to your life of where you're supposed to go.

I love it. And then I add on to clarity. So you're saying connection brings clarity. Yes. And I'm saying from clarity, we can have a life of conviction. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because from clarity breeds confidence. People often think that confidence breeds clarity. No, clarity actually breeds confidence because you're seeing things, you're knowing things, and then you have this confidence as you're playing or living your life or building a business, whatever it is, it comes from clarity.

Okay. All right. So then, okay. So I think we're getting into kind of some really important stuff for you, which is your openness, which is vulnerability is the way that I talk about openness. There's a vulnerability to listen, to feel, to hear, to watch. Not knowing everything is the opposite of an openness. And so you've got this openness about you. And it sounds like, again, it's connected to your spiritual framework and then this um dogged approach grit if you will to take action once that you have that clarity so you work to be connected yet you're open to clarity and then this dogged approach to go so bring us now now fast forward and fast forward all the way to your manuscript is done it's. It's come out of you.

And then you knock on some publisher's doors. Okay. So, so it's, we'll back up for a second because you asked how I, how I sold my restaurants. Yeah, I know. I know it was time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was flying out to Oregon to speak. I had finally had a speaking engagement.

I'm going out there to speak. I'm all excited about it. I had done a couple others and on my way out, I'm like, you know, I'm excited about speaking. And the restaurants were really draining me at the time. I'm thinking, you know, I think it's time. It might be time to sell. I don't know. Maybe it is. I'm reading a magazine on the way out to Oregon, getting ready to speak somewhere. And this article said, how to know when to sell your business. So I thought to myself, well, maybe that's a sign. I've always believed in signs. On the home, no joke, Michael, I'm reading a different magazine.

And then how to value your business when selling was the article. I walked in the door. I said, honey, the signs are clear. We're supposed to sell just like that. Too funny. She could have thought I was crazy, right? Yeah, 100%. But she's like, okay.

So we sold. And now six months later, I'm struggling. I'm walking and I'm thinking honestly about giving it all up. I really was. I'm like, you know what? What am I going to do? This isn't working. And in that walk, I prayed and bam,

the energy bus came to me. The idea, the story, not the whole story, but sort of the framework about a bus driver who changes a negative person's life. The character George was based on me. I went home, I had a home office, and I started writing. I literally just went upstairs, and I just started writing. I never wrote a fable before. I never wrote a story before. I just started writing this story,

and I wrote it in three and a half weeks. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day. And Cozy Earth has become a new part of that. Their bedding, it's incredibly soft, like next level soft. And what surprised me the most is how much it actually helps regulate temperature. I tend to run warm at night and these sheets have helped me sleep cooler and more consistently, which has made a meaningful difference in how I show up the next day for myself, my family, and our team here at Finding Mastery. It's become part of my nightly routine. Throw on their lounge

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that elevate your routine without complicating it, I'd love for you to check them out. Head to calderalab.com slash finding mastery and use the code finding mastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash finding mastery. God, this is so inspiring for me. Like I get so fired up listening to this because those moments or those experiences, I know exactly what you're talking about. My whole body tingles, like not in a weird way. Like it's like, yes, like that kind of connectivity, but the work, okay, it wasn't a grind to get that thing out. The grind was for you to be connected so that you could get clarity, right? Back to your model

and as we're decoding this. And so the work was to get connected. And then when could get clarity, right, back to your model as we're decoding this. And so the work was to get connected. And then when you get connected, clarity happens. And I mean, I want to engineer my life for more of that. And I think that's probably why these conversations are so meaningful to me, is because that's exactly the thing that requires discipline because it's so easy to be busy and it's so easy to be productive, but to organize our lives where we have more connection, I don't know if there's something more powerful. Yeah, I couldn't agree more because

I think back now as you're talking about this and every day would happen and I would get up, I would take a walk, I would practice gratitude, I would pray, and I would get more of the story. And I would go back and write for a couple hours. And I did it every day, though, for three and a half weeks. Again, that's not a difficult grind for three and a half weeks, but I had to have the discipline of sitting down every day and writing for that amount of time, not knowing how long it would be. That's just how long it took. Yeah. Yeah. I want to hit on this gratitude for a minute. But when I, I've only, I've written one book, which is, you know, all graduate students have to write a dissertation. And I did the same thing is that I said, okay, it's one page a day. And the thing ended up being minimum one page a day. And it was, sometimes a page took six hours. And because it's so dense, like dissertations are so dense that, and sometimes like 20 pages would spill out. But I just made this deal with myself that I'm going to get one

page out. It sounds like you didn't go that way. You prepared yourself to let whatever happened was going to happen, but the work was on the preparation side. Right. And also knowing, okay, I'm going to just write every day because I read a book by Stephen King on writing and it said, writers write. So you have to find the time and the place and sit down every day. Now, I know that people have a story in them. I hear from people all the time who want to write.

And when they want to write, they call me up and they say, you know, I want to write a book and blah, blah, blah. How do I get a publisher? I said, hey, don't even think about a publisher right now. Just write the book. Sit down every day and start writing it and see what comes. See what starts to flow.

See what angle you start to take. See what starts to come out of you. And as you start to write it, then you can start to organize it. And then when it's done, now start thinking about the publisher. Yeah. Okay. Beautiful. And I want to just for a moment, thank you for all the help you've in guidance and support and challenge and, and nudges that you've given me to get my voice more clear to write. And so I know, you know, the, the struggle I went through with this book that was never released. And I want to thank you for keeping me connected to continue down the path.

So thank you. Well, no, thank you for saying that because I know that you have an amazing story to tell and I can't wait to read the book. I already know what's happening. So that's a knowing I have for you. That's fun. Okay, what do you think of this statement

by one of the greatest writers ever, Ernestingway write drunk edit sober this sounds exactly opposite to your process you said write drunk edit sober yeah it's sober I love it yes well in a way I do like that because when I come back from my walks of prayer and gratitude, I sort of feel a little drunk. So I'm so connected. The spirit is flowing, right? What is drinking? But we drink to escape the thought and the intellect. So when we drink, we're actually more connected to source because we're removing the intellect and we're allowing it to flow.

So actually when I come back, I do feel that way. And at night, I'm sober and I edit at night. Every night I come back, I do feel that way. And at night I'm sober and I edit at night every night I edit. So I actually love that quote. Yeah. Ernest Hemingway knew some stuff. What, what is it that you, how do you do gratitude training and where did you learn that to be valuable? And is it still valuable to you? So there's three questions, you know, embedded in there. Where'd you learn it? How do you do it? And then is it still valuable to you?

Okay, so it was really important to me when I read the research about gratitude. So I came up with this idea and this practice of taking a walk of gratitude every day. I called it a thank you walk. So I coined that term years ago. I was reading all the positive psychology literature early on and started to take this walk of gratitude. It's actually in the Energy Bus story where George starts to take a walk of gratitude. He takes a thank you walk. So I wove it into the story, but I did this walk almost every day for 13 years. And it was a huge part of my life because it was during those walks where ideas would come to me, where insights would come, where a lot of stories

came. Almost every book that I've written of those 12 books came to me during those walks. That was my time. Now, I don't want people thinking, oh, they have to take a walk of gratitude if they want that to happen. No, for you, it might come when you're playing golf. It might come for you when you're in the shower. It might come for you on another practice that you do. So for me, it was just during those times that they came to me. Now, to this day, you asked

about how much I do that now. I don't do it as much now because what I've started to really learn and believe is that gratitude is more of a byproduct of a heart and mind that is connected to God, that out of that connection, we feel grateful, that if we try to force it, sometimes it's not sincere, it's not's not sincere it's not real so it's more about trying to be connected and out of connected comes gratitude yeah so gratitude there's there's some really good research around gratitude um and gratitude training in particular and people that do gratitude training and it's not more complicated than just taking some moments and being connected to what you're grateful for such such as $5 in my pocket, two healthy feet, you know, milk in the refrigerator, a loving wife.

Like, just being connected to whatever it is that's true. And it actually, when we study brain performance, we can find that people that do gratitude training had higher levels of activity in their hypothalamus. And the hypothalamus is a big part for essential body functioning and regulating eat and sleep and drinking. And it also influences metabolism and stress levels. And so getting more activity there creates better regulation.

And that regulation helps people not fall into the trap of highs and lows and mood and there's also you know a more healthy dose of dopamine which i'm we all know what that is is that it's the feel-good stuff in our brain so there's some real reasons why gratitude helps because when we do those when we get those benefits there's some we're not having to chase the dragon of emotion there's greater stability in in our daily functioning it's been a big part of my journey in terms of you know people often ask me what's the number one thing I've done to be more positive, and I would say it was the gratitude. I've had some conversations with my friend Garrett Kramer about this, and he's really more on the connection part, more of when you're connected, gratitude is a feeling. I was talking to my wife the other day, and I asked her what are her thoughts, and she said, you know, I just feel grateful.

I just feel it. She goes, I don't have to practice it like you john i just feel it and when i feel it the gratitude flows i'm not looking for ways to be grateful i'm i'm more connected so i'm grateful i think that was interesting yeah right on sounds like uh as we'd expect she's a bit more advanced than you exactly definitely that's too good okay so um all right so we've talked about people that have influenced you you've talked about uh things that in your upbringing that have led you down this path we've talked about your spiritual framework and you know can we can we go into post um oh no we haven't talked about the manuscript yeah and how many times uh what that process was like to actually get it on on publication sure sure so so now i finally write it

my agent sends it out i had to get an agent i get an agent she sends it out to a bunch of publishers it gets rejected by over 30 of them don I don't even know exactly how many, but it was over 30. And I remember just feeling down, rejected, devastated. She called me one day. She said, I don't think it's going to happen. I think you should just forget it or self-publish. I said, but I really think this book can make a difference. I really feel like it was magical in writing it. I think the story could help. I can't just give up. So I was in a bookstore one day in Barnes and Noble and I'm looking at all the books on the shelf. And I saw John Wiley and Sons was one of the publishers on one of the books. And I said, oh, we haven't sent it to Wiley yet. So I called up my agent. I said, hey,

let's send it to Wiley. She said, okay. So she sent it to the health editor, the wrong person. She was supposed to send it to the business editor because it's more of a the book, hands it to his assistant who reads it. Matt doesn't want to do it, but his assistant for some reason takes it home that night, Shannon. Shannon had only been on the job for three months. She had a best friend with a husband named George. George is the main character. She read the book and said she wanted to do it. She told Matt, he said, if it doesn't go well, it could be your career. I don't think you should. She said, no, I want to do it. I really love it. She decided to do it. And so now it's coming out six months later. I still remember getting the call. I was so excited that they were going to publish it. They didn't have a lot of money, not a big advance. I said, I don't care. I just want to get this book out and share it with the world. And so it came out. Now, not one bookstore in the United States would carry the book, but it became a huge hit in Korea.

To this day, no one can explain why or how, but there was a bidding war between two publishers in Korea for the energy bus. It was the largest foreign rights deal Wiley has ever done. Again, my mom had just passed away. I'm like, all right, Mom, I don't know what relationship you have with Korea, but somehow this is behind it. Wow. And it was this huge hit in Korea, top five bestseller there. But now one bookstore in the United States would carry the book. So my publisher, Matt, he's the guy who didn't want to do the book, but then he's teasing me and he says, John, you're the David Hasselhoff of Korea.

I love it. So I'm really, though, at the time, I remember I was excited about that I did well in Korea, but I was frustrated that none of the bookstores would carry it. I'm a new author. No one knows who I am. And so I said, you know what? I got to go on a tour.

I got to go around the country and just share the message in this book. I had a friend, Daniel Decker. Daniel and I get together. I pay him a little bit a month because I had some money from the restaurant, right? And I go from city to city sharing the message in the book. He calls up radio stations, TV stations at all these cities. I drive an energy bus literally around the country, a wrapped up

like kind of SUV thing around the country. My family was supposed to come with me to LA. They flew out to LA, but they were supposed to travel with me all the way back to the rest of the cities. And they said, no, we're done. They were done after one city. They flew home. And I literally went from city to city to city. Five people in some cities, Michael. Ten people in another. Twenty people in another. I joke that the most people we had were 100 people in Des Moines, Iowa. They thought Jeff Gordon was coming. But it was really true.

So you were traveling for X number of hours in a SUV, and you'd show up, and there'd be five people interested in your book. Yep. Five people. Maybe you got on a radio show that. And you'd show up and there'd be five people interested in your book. Yeah. Five people. Maybe you got on a radio show that day or a TV show. And I didn't do it right in terms of planning a tour like that. I learned later on how to do it better because I would go on another one more tour I went on with the no complaining rule. And Northwestern Mutual actually sponsored the tour where each city I went to, they got the location. They brought their people for free.

And I was allowed to just invite the general public. And I did that. And again, it was not designed to make money. I just wanted to get the message out there. But city to city to city, a few months away from my family for a long period of time. What did you do, John, when you would show up? This is getting to your self-talk, if you will. But when you would walk into a room and you get that little buzz about,

you know, what's going to take place when you walk in and waiting for butts in seats and there was five or 10 or 15 people. How did you, what did you say to yourself? I said to myself, one person at a time. Because my mission before that, before I even started this, was to inspire and empower as many people as possible, one person at a time. So my mission from a psychological framework and vision, that was driving me. So I had to keep that in mind when I went to these cities. It sounds powerful and it seems like that worked for you, but it seems really inefficient. vision that was driving me. So I had to keep that in mind when I went to these cities.

It sounds powerful and it seems like that worked for you, but it seems really inefficient for you to drive, you know, six hours, spend that fuel to, to have five people show up. Like I get, I think it's, you know, I, I understand how it worked for you, but my goodness, that seems hard. It was, and it wasn't, and I look back, again, it wasn't the smartest thing, but you talk about earlier about doing the work and it was in the connection, but the work after writing the book, the writing was easy. The work and the learning and the growing and the decision to just keep moving forward and knowing that I'm not sure what the future holds, but just to keep going and keep sharing, that's where a lot of my humility was born in terms of just making a difference. It was where I feel like I was molded and shaped to focus

on the process, not the outcome. And it really allows me to appreciate all that I'm doing now when I go to audiences and there's several thousand there, where I work like last night with the Cleveland Browns, you know, and get a chance to speak to those guys because I've been on this journey because it wasn't easy. I can speak to people who are struggling. There you go. Yeah. Jesus. Can you think of what comes to mind when you think of the single most difficult time or moment in your life? The most difficult time in my life was when my wife threatened to leave me. That was the hardest time. Yeah. Was it the moment that you described earlier? Yes. That was the hardest time when I look back.

Gallup did a study they they asked people their worst event in their life and their best event and they found that there's an 80 correlation between the two the the worst and the best and I would have to say you know again that moment of of my wife almost leaving began the transformation process to become a more positive person and uh and now it leads to the best of talking with you and getting to do what I do every day. My daughter, Michael, wrote her college essay. She's a senior now.

And in the essay, it said, when I was young, my mom struggled with her health and my dad struggled with himself. And that was the beginning of the essay. Tears started to flow when I read it. She said, but I watched my dad learn to become more positive, to transform himself, to start to write, to start to speak, to start to share.

She was, and now I realize that people can change for the better, and I saw the change in him, and now he's helping others to change, and so I believe in the possibilities of the world. That was like the essay. I was like blown away when I read it, because that's been my journey from negative to positive which is and you know i if you can can you send me that research article that you're referencing or find it uh i'd love to read more about the 80 connectivity and if you can't find it like i'll do some digging as well but um if i could share as well that one of the most

single difficult times in my life was when my wife said we're done wow yeah and so we're seven years married today as we're talking we're celebrating 20 years marriage wow yeah man so yeah she said we're done well yeah seven years in she, we're done. And rightfully so, because of me being selfish and self-absorbed and not being a good husband. You know, like, as it comes down to, I was just, I didn't know how to do better. And she's, you know, she was very clear. She says, this can't continue. And I said, what do you mean? Because it felt okay. You know, it wasn't continue. And I said, what do you mean? Because it felt okay.

You know, it wasn't amazing. It just felt okay. And she was the beacon for standing up with conviction for something better. And so we went a long journey to get ourselves right. And it was the most difficult phase that I've been through to date. Doesn't mean it's not going to get difficult, more difficult in the future, but holy snarkies, was it unbelievably rewarding to do so. So tonight we're going to have a great celebration for our 20th anniversary. We're going out to dinner

and yeah, nothing extravagant, but just being able to celebrate the work we've done together. Congratulations on 20 years. I mean, so many people i meet michael and and uh you know women and men they get to that point where it's a challenge and they just walk away or they just say you know what um i'm not willing to change and pride keeps them from changing so they never grow together they grow apart and they never really become all that they can be in that relationship i was thinking about grit and i think grit grit in marriage is the key to success as well. Yeah, so our therapist, we went and worked with somebody to help us.

We found this really wise woman, and she asked a key question. I think I've talked about this before, but she said, you guys need to change, right? Like, or you guys recognize that change is inevitable. Do you want to do the work with each other, or do you want to do the work with each other? Or do you want to do that work with somebody else? And that moment was terrifying for me, because I thought for sure

she was going to say, yes, I need to change and grow. And I want to do that work with someone else because I don't believe he will do the work. And it was that it probably lasted a second and a half, but it felt like it lasted, you know, where my heart my heart just pounded my stomach dropped and because i knew i wanted to continue to do the work i wanted to do the work with her and so and then she looked over and there's just that moment she looked over and she said yeah i want to do the work with you and i was like holy okay there we go so that was um that was a key moment um anyways enough of that but that's incredible congratulations on 20 years that's huge yeah thanks brother um all right so i've got i thought we could do this you've got 12 books if i say the title of a book could you give us a one-line descriptor of what it is that like if you could strip it down to the

essence and then i'm going to ask you to do the same for you as a man okay sure one or two i could Could you give us a one-line descriptor of what it is? Sure. Like if you could strip it down to the essence, and then I'm going to ask you to do the same for you as a man. Okay, sure. One or two, maybe two lines, but I could do it. The seed. The seed. Finding your purpose. It's about serving in small ways.

When you serve in small ways, you get more opportunities to serve in bigger ways. Beautiful. Soup. Soup. Soup. Building a culture of greatness through relationships. So you can't create a great culture if you don't have engaged relationships as part of your culture.

The energy bus. The energy bus. Getting your team on the bus and moving in the right direction with a shared vision, focus, and purpose. And it's about someone who has to ultimately overcome all the adversity, negativity, and obstacles to define himself and his team's success. The no complaining rule. Instead of complaints, focus on solutions.

You're not allowed to complain unless you come with one or two possible solutions to your complaint. Training camp. My favorite book I've written and it's What the Best Do Better Than Everyone Else. It's the winning habits that separate the best from the rest

but the main character also has to go on a journey of faith where he has to find his faith to overcome his fear to be his best. The shark and the goldfish. Goldfish wait to be fed. Sharks go find food. So in life, you want to be a shark. Many of us are goldfish, but in the story, the goldfish learns how to be a shark.

He goes to shark school the positive dog positive dog that's the science and the benefits of positivity so it's about whichever dog we feed that's what grows that old story with the wolves but turn it into dogs and then a negative dog learns how to be positive through the science of of positivity and then together through their positivity, they transform the shelter. One word. One word that will change your life.

There's a word that's meant for you. And when you're open to that word that's meant for you, you're truly open, it will come to you. And then if you live it, it will shape you and mold you. My words over the years have been purpose, surrender, pray, serve. And this year is rise. So each year I pick a new word at New Year's. And that word molds you and shapes you.

I've done this with a lot of sports teams. So powerful. And school districts as well. Very powerful. Yeah, it's a really good one. I use, I've got a phrase that's been with me for like three years. And I connect to it every day in the morning and it's roots and reach. And yeah, so maybe I added two words to your third there,

but roots and reach. Okay. The other book, two words that will change your life. And an ampersand. Okay. The Carpenter. The Carpenter. Three words for that book is love, serve, and care. Don't focus on building your business. Focus on loving, serving, and caring, and your business will exponentially grow. Caring is the greatest success strategy of all. And then one other thing on that, my favorite part of that book, though, is being a craftsman or a craftswoman instead of a carpenter. A carpenter just builds things but in the story you learn that a craftsman and a craft woman creates a work of art they put their soul their spirit their passion into their work and that's

how they create their masterpiece it's not outside in they create their world from the inside out out. Speaking to me, hard hat, the hard hat. Hard hat, a very personal story. It's a true story. The first book that I wrote, that's actually a true story. And all the proceeds go to the Mario St. George Boyarty Foundation. George Boyarty was a lacrosse player at Cornell 11 years after I played. 2004, he got hit in the chest with a ball. He jumped in front of a shot to sacrifice, trying to stop a team from scoring. He died on the field. But ever since his death, the program has been transformed by his character, by his example and who he was as a person. Literally the greatest teammate that ever lived, I believed. And I studied him. I interviewed all his teammates 11 years later,

and they still live their lives based on the kind of person he was to this day. He's inspired them. Yeah. And the story of, I know you went to Cornell and can you tell us a quick story about what the hard hat means? Well, as a freshman, George was, was picked to carry the hard hat and it was given to a freshman who displayed the blue-collar work ethic of a Cornell lacrosse player. He wasn't the most talented. The hard hat carrier would be someone who was selfless, loyal, team first, and just hardworking. So George was given the hard hat as a freshman to carry. Well, he died as a senior.

So ever since his death, they put his number 21 on the hard hat and it came to symbolize George and the Cornell lacrosse program. I love it. You know, I'm waiting and open. Like I want something like that for the tribes that I'm in, like to symbolize a certain ethos and like Cornell got it right. It's really cool. The Cornell lacrosse team, I said, got it right. And, um, I, I've been open and want ever since I, you shared that story with me, uh, I've been wanting to have something like that in my own family as well. And, um, so I just share that with you. So I deeply appreciate that. And then I love that. Yeah. I think it's about, um,

I encourage like every team to think about like their history their tradition like where you're from like your roots right you said that earlier connect your present to your tradition and your past and your roots and there's so much power in that so it's it's really thinking about that and what that means like gettysburg lacrosse they went back to the tradition of gettysburg and the battle of gettysburg lacrosse they went back to the tradition of gettysburg and the battle of gettysburg and they they they're like wow there's so much tradition here of fixing the bayonets of of that line and they went to that and it became a symbol and a model for the team during the year they went going you know 20 straight games on a win streak. That's so cool. And then your most recent book,

You Win in the Locker Room First. Yes. Seven C's to Build a Winning Team. Wrote it with Mike Smith, the former Atlanta Falcons coach. He was fired. And we talk about it in that book. What are the things he did right

the first five years? What went wrong the last two? And he's very honest and open about it. But what went right? And years what went wrong the last two and he's very honest very honest and open about it but but what went right and then what went wrong and then what we can learn from it and we share the seven c's to build a winning team of culture consistent contagious communication connection commitment and caring and if you have these seven C's on a team, you can see them play out during the course of a year. Love it. Okay. So on all of this, can I ask you for the same for you is what is a word or a phrase that cuts to the center of what you understand most in life?

Hmm. One of them is being positive doesn't just make you better, it makes everyone around you better so it's how I try to live my life I believe positivity is my calling and even though our message earlier, Michael, we talked about my faith early on, when I go speak to businesses or corporations and sports teams, I'm not there sharing my faith, my faith early on, when I go speak to businesses or corporations and sports teams, I'm not there sharing my faith. My faith just comes out of who I am, but it's not my job to

try to preach religion. I just share who I am and what I believe and principles I believe that help people. So for me, it's about walking the talk more than, you know, talking. And then is there a word or phrase that cuts to what you do the best? What I do the best. I care. What do you care about? I care about being my best. You know, I am someone who is driven to be my best.

I'm not, you know, in all the desire to write and make a difference, I still want to write something great. You know, I do want to produce something meaningful. I want to be a craftsman in my own work. I want to be a craftsman in my own work. I want to get better. When I was writing The Carpenter, I was so scared of writing something that people would say was a piece of junk because the energy bus was getting a lot of praise and was getting real popular. And so was training camp. And I thought, I'm going to write a piece of junk. And I couldn't write. I was so fearful and so paralyzed. And in that moment, I realized that I got to just do this with love. That if I just write with love and write from love and love the process, love the person I'm writing for who will read it, then it will flow. And sure enough, once I focused on just loving what I'm doing

and not worrying about failing, next thing you know, I wrote that book in about three weeks. Whew. Okay, and then is there a word or phrase that cuts to the center of who you are as a man? Man, these are such tough questions. Like one phrase that cuts to who I am as a man, I would say I'm a man who lives from his heart. It wasn't always that way. I allowed the stress

and the fear and the selfishness to block that flow. But now I truly live from the heart. Do I fall short? You bet. Am I negative sometimes? You bet. I grew up in a Jewish Italian family, a lot of food, a lot of guilt, right?

Sometimes my tendency goes towards the negative. But I really truly like with my kids and, you know, I want to be the dad that's involved in their lives. My motto from my wife is the more I love my wife, the more I love my life. That's not happy wife, happy life. It's the more I love my wife. So it's my job is just to love her. It's not about her. It's not about what I receive. It's about just coming from love my wife. So it's my job is just to love her. It's not about her. It's not about what I receive. It's about just coming from love with her. So I would say it again in my work, I write

from the heart and I'm at my best when I speak from the heart. It's awesome. One of the keys, key takeaways in the science of happiness is search for gratitude first. And the other is have someone to love, not having someone love you back other is have someone to love. Not having someone love you back, but having someone to love. Okay, so do you have a few more minutes? Sure. Are you sure? Yeah, it's the day before Thanksgiving, so I have plenty of time.

Okay, so you talked about what you're interested most is, or not what you're interested most, but this hunger or drive you have to be your best. And at first blush, that can seem selfish, but understanding you more, it doesn't feel selfish at all. It feels like when you are your best, you're loving better, you're giving better, you're connected better. So there's a real give that you have to yourself but i'd love to get to uh walk you through um just a way that i think about best self and then if you can go down this path with me is that can you recall a time a very specific time this is just to anchor up the juices if you will um when you were the most you when When I was the most me. Yeah, like your best, like when you're at your best, but it's deeper than that.

I'm at my best when I'm writing and speaking. That's when I'm at my best. So go to, just grab one very specific time where you were the most you. Got it. Okay. And then can you conjure up what you were wearing, where you were, the temperature in the room, you know, the nuances of that experience? And let's take as much time as you need to water that. I think I've ever been in such a, you know, a tough audience. But yet, you know, I really felt, I felt this amazing connection and feelings.

That was yesterday. Okay, brilliant. No, no, as an asterisk, no joke that football teams can be tough crowds. Okay. All right. So the most you and then what was that like for you? How do you describe it? You describe it where it's fearful and terrifying in the beginning

because I'm focused on me in the beginning. And I admit that. Like, you want to give a great talk. You want to make a difference. I believe we all have constraints that hold us back. And you have to know what your constraint is. And my constraint is, you know, ever since I was young, my recognition and my praise came from, you know, doing good things. From sports, from being recognized through sports, through my grades, you know.

I think having a biological father that left when I was young, I think that probably contributes to that, but it's also probably just part of my journey. So I always felt like I had to prove myself. And so when I go into an environment like that, every talk I give, people don't know who I am a lot of times. I feel like I have to prove myself early on. And I think even when I

started writing, I initially started writing because I wanted to be someone of value. And I wrote about this recently that I share that vulnerable part of that. That's why, you know, initially it's twofold to become someone of value, but also to want to make a difference. But then what happens is that experience is as I'm speaking, I lose myself and then my heart starts to take over. And then it's about truly making a difference and helping others, you know, in their life, on their journey. And when that started to click and it clicked very early on in this talk and some for some reason was more powerful than ever and that heart feeling of sharing you know in that state was like the most incredible feeling that that you ever have and then okay so how do you describe the incredible feeling

joy joy okay and then around whom do those feelings naturally happen to you? It sounds like it was when you get some adrenaline and you push through the fear of not being good enough, that that's one of the ways it happens, or that's the way it happened yesterday. But around whom? It's a little bit tighter of a question. Does that experience naturally happen? Around who? Around whom? Yeah. Could be around anyone,

but yeah, I would say it doesn't really matter around who it is. Okay. It's more inside me that's happening. It doesn't really matter what's happening on the outside. But I also experienced it this summer when I was at Mosaic with Erwin McManus, who, you know, was a pastor there and has had a huge impact on my life. And I got a chance to speak at his church to his audience full of artists and directors and non-believers.

But they love going there because the spirit is so amazing. And my family was there with me. And having my family there was real special, too. Okay. And then what do you do to train and or prepare to increase your chances of this taking place? You know, that's interesting because people often ask me what I do to prepare for my talks, and I don't prepare for that anymore. I don't train. I believe in just going with the flow and allowing

hopefully the spirit to move through me. Okay. And then when you're... You know what it is? Okay, I just got it. It's surrender. That's what it is.

For me, it's surrender and it's prayer. So it's not really a ritual i just surrender and pray i think your dog agrees as well i apologize for that oh no it's good and then when you're off how do you get it back we'd be able to edit that bar that by the way hell no if i knew how to edit these these things would be down to like 12 minutes or something. Take me out of them. No.

The next question? Yeah. I love it. When you're off, how do you get it back? When I'm off, how do I get it back? Those are times when you're tough. It's tough when you're off and you just feel off. How do I get it back?

You just stay the course. You just keep moving forward. You realize that in those moments that you're allowing outside circumstances to affect how you think and then ultimately how you feel. And then I realize that my feeling only comes from my thinking. So then I try to just not think too much and then allow God to move. I try to get out of my own way, basically. Okay, so, all right. So the way you get it back is that you recenter,

you get, but how do you do that when people are watching or, you know, there's live action or you're in the heat of it right so i might it might be self-talk where in that moment just i'm in i'm in a i'm in on stage and there's a large crowd and you start to feel a little off in that moment so is that what you're talking about when that happens yeah Yeah. I think in those moments, um, it's almost like I just say to myself in that moment to share the message, John,

just, just give your best and, and, and do what you can do. I mean, I was just with shop, right. Recently in New Jersey and you know,

all the owners of shop, right. And I mean, the Northeast crowd is not the easiest crowd. And, and, uh, but yeah,

in that the beginning was a little, little tough, but I just said, John, just keep sharing the message and just keep making a difference. It's not about you. And sure enough, it started to flow and then wind up having an amazing response. So I had to get through that tough part initially

of worrying about myself. In the past, when I first started speaking, that would overtake me and I would be impacted by the moment the moment was too big for me yeah it was too it was too big for me and I didn't know how to handle it and I didn't know how to respond to it and I would basically just feel horrible afterwards knowing that I didn't give a good talk but But now, I think I just know how to maybe just stay centered in that moment. Yeah, I love the idea. You just captured this idea that when

people think about big moments, by definition, it means that what takes place is they feel small. And feeling small is, I think, one of the most painful things that a human can experience. And one of the ways that, at least it works for me, is that it's very Zen to say this, but there's no such thing as a big moment. There's no such thing as a big play or a big day or a big game. It's like, this is the only moment we get. And then the decision is, how do I want to be in moments, this moment included, and then how can I better prepare myself when I start to get out of whack, when I think something's defining me.

And then that becomes why do the work. That's, for me at least, why do that work. I love it. I love it. Yeah, I believe what happens is we believe the lie that outside, you know, circumstances have power over us. And if you know the truth, the truth is you are who you are on the inside. That's all that matters. And so it was like yesterday and just recently in general, I've been just saying, you know what, go for it. Just share the message. Just, you know, live with no regrets. Like if this was my last talk, how would I want to give it? And just, just go for it. I mean, I'm giving my son advice. He's a competitive tennis player, right? And I'm giving advice on if this was your last tennis match, just play the way you want to play. You get on that court, just, just go for it. And I'm thinking to myself, all right, I got to live that too. Yeah, there you go. Okay. So you've, you've, you've produced 12 books. They've come from

a well, if you will, and then you just are the vehicle that allow those words and ideas to be expressed. It doesn't mean that it's that simple. I know you're working, working to prepare yourself to be connected and working during the word choice and how to structure a story. But how important is the mental aspect of your craft? Well, I think it's everything. I think our attitude and our state of mind

as we approach things is everything. I think on a daily basis, it's a spiritual battle between fear and faith. And I believe ultimately we have to move forward with faith. So I would say on a daily basis, it's about what will you choose and how will you live? Will you believe the lie or will you focus on the truth and have faith that tomorrow's going to be better than today?

So for me, it's an ongoing battle. And for me, it's knowing that I have to prepare myself. So I listen to a podcast a day. I never, even though I'm a, you know, even though I would identify myself as a follower of Jesus, I never fully read all of the scriptures. So I read a lot of devotionals. So recently I just started actually reading Matthew, Mark, and Luke. And as I'm reading those each morning, it's been just so powerful reading that. I read a book, a little bit of a those each morning, it's been just so powerful reading that. I read a book, a little bit of a book each day, about 20 to 30 pages. And then especially when

I'm on planes and so forth. And I continue to take that walk each day and to make sure I exercise. So to me, that mental part of it, that spiritual part, I don't think they're different. I think mental and spiritual come together. I think that is the future of soul work and the future of sports performance, to be honest, is when you can see how they come together. Yeah. St. Ignatius, if you go back to some of the original ideas of spiritual training, no, I shouldn't say original, but Christian ideas of spiritual training. St. Ignatian was a thinker about that, and he did some awful things in his lifetime, but he also added to the body of knowledge about spiritual training. And it's a really cool concept. And just as a quick frame, this idea of performance psychology and sports

psychology, basically training the mind, what we're seeing in sport or what I'm seeing in sport now is a deeper conversation about love and about the spiritual path that people are on as almost an anecdote to inoculate the destruction that comes from the external rewards, the traps that come from focusing on external rewards that naturally will accompany mastery. And so, love and deeply connected to other people is really a spiritual path, right? And the mental skills, for me at least, are the ways to gate out the noise so that we can have a deep focus toward what I would call signal, whatever signal is for that person. And so how do you, is there a way that you train? And then maybe we can just give

you a couple of quick hits to respond to, but is there a way that you train deep focus? Because it sounds like you go into that three week writing period and it's deep focus for you, but is there a way that you train it otherwise? i don't train it i just um what i found is the more the more i'm in flow actually the more focus i have so i think the more i try to focus the less focus i have but the more i'm flowing focus is a byproduct of flow so when you're coming from from flow you'll have more clarity which which then increases focus. So for me, it's trying to be connected, to have clarity, and then to focus. So it's the prayer, it's the walk, it's the prayer, and then it's the sitting down and writing. I had a field goal kicker who was struggling a couple

weeks ago. He's a professional field goal kicker. And I reached out to him. I said, I can tell you're thinking a lot, aren't you? And he said, yeah. I said, tell me about last year when you were kicking great. He's like, oh, I was just, you know, I was loving it. I was a rookie, feeling great and struggling. I mean, not struggling this year, but last year just in the flow. I said, I want you to get back to just loving what you do. You're thinking so much that you're fearing making a mistake.

You're fearing of losing what you have. He was afraid of failing. And so he was full of fear. But love casts out fear. You can't have fear if you have love. You know, when you run into a burning building because of love, not fear. Love is more powerful than fear. So I said, just focus on loving what you do and loving the

game and loving kicking and focusing on it. Just like from the carpenter and my example there. And he did. And sure enough, ever since, again, I'm not saying it was, maybe there's no direct correlation, but he's been kicking amazing. And by just focusing on love. There you go. All right, cool. Just hit us with a couple quick things here as we wrap up. Pressure comes from... Pressure comes from believing the lie that anything outside you can impact how you feel. It all comes down to... Love, serve, and care. The carpenter.

The crossroad was? The crossroad was when I realized that in order to become a person of true value, I had to help people and bring out the value in them and serve them, that that's where true value is. If I had the chance to do it over again? I wouldn't change anything, but my one regret is my senior year in college, playing lacrosse, I allowed distractions to get in the way. I was a three-year starter, and I never truly

became the best that I could be. I allowed distractions to get in the way. Distractions are the enemy of greatness. And if I could do it again I would have go back to that more moment I would have tell John to just focus on being your best to give all that you have That you're not gonna wish you would have spent more time partying or you know chasing your girlfriend around But you're gonna wish you would have devoted your life to being the best that you can be. And I tell this to college athletes all the time because it's something that is so important to me.

Success is? Success is helping others be successful. You aren't a true success unless you help others be successful. Love? You aren't a true success unless you help others be successful. Love. Love is the greatest leadership, team building, customer service strategy, sales technique on the planet. Love is the foundation of everything that is great. Greatness is built with love. My vision?

My vision is to inspire and empower as many people as possible, one person at a time, even though it's inefficient. Okay. I am? A husband, a father, a writer, speaker, but most of all, I'm a child of God. And then what do you hope the next generation gets right?

I hope, oh, there's a lot of things but I hope that they take care of our planet I hope that they and I know they will they're going to find solutions to our healthcare crisis energy medicine

is the future and they're going to find healing in that I hope the next generation focuses finds a way to love instead of hate and they're going to find healing in that. I hope the next generation focuses, finds a way to love instead of hate and finds a way to work with everyone on the planet to bring heaven to earth because that's the ultimate goal

is to make earth like heaven where it's full of joy, peace, love, and oneness. Okay. How do you last kind of like, I guess kind of, well, I want to say deep, but like last idea here is how do you articulate or define or get your, you know, put words to this idea of mastery? To me, mastery and your journey into discovering it, into sharing it, right out of the bat, is such an incredible journey. Because for me, every human being wants to strive for greatness.

I ask people all the time, do you want to be great? What do you want to do great things? And maybe it's the audiences I speak to, but everyone raises their hand. They all want to do great things or they want to be great at something. But why is that? Because I believe that God put in our heart and soul that the desire to be great. We were never meant to be average. We were meant to do great things.

We were made in the likeness and image of God. So in that likeness and image, we want to strive for greatness. But in our striving of greatness, the journey is to become someone, I believe, who can bring out the greatness in others. So on this journey of mastery, we become someone who strives for mastery so that we can take these lessons and these gifts and be an example for others, but ultimately show others what mastery is like. And then to be hopefully an inspiration for someone who's looking at you to then maybe raise the bar and find their own mastery. So a life touches a life who touches a life. And we see it all the time in sports. We see it in healthcare.

We see it in business and entrepreneurs, right? The next Steve Jobs is looking what Apple is doing and they're doing something, they're going to do something even greater as a result of that. We're always pushing the envelope as human beings. So to me, that's mastery. We're meant to strive for greatness.

We're not meant to be average. On that note, where can we learn more about what you're up to? You can go to my website at johngordon.com, J-O-N, Gordon.com, or Twitter at J-O-N, Gordon, 11. Did you have a mentor? Obviously, Jesus, for you, is a mentor. But do you have a mentor that has helped you understand mastery or greatness, maybe in your terms? I've had a bunch in terms of just on the journey. But I would say if I i had one mentor it would

be ken blanchard when i looked at ken blanchard the author of the one minute manager raving fans and so many books he taught at cornell he went to cornell so when i looked at someone to model to say who do i want to be like like on this journey as a writer and speaker if i had to model myself who would it be? It was Ken Blanchard. So he was my role model in that. And he is the most amazing, heartfelt, loving man. Meeting him and just feeling his heart made me want to be a better person. Because at that time, my heart was nowhere near like that. I knew it and I felt it. And I honestly did not like myself for it it exposed it was like the light that was shining a light on the darkness oh yeah yeah um but then

you know we did a retreat together in san diego we did an event together in west palm beach and spent more time together and uh he is someone who just has inspired me greatly on this journey is he on a path of mastery himself? I think so. I think he's been an incredible golfer. And so I would say that in terms of mastery of that, yes. In terms of mastery of writing and speaking and training and making a difference. He's in his mid-70s now.

So I think his life has been about being the best he can be in his world and making a great difference. That's it now. Okay. John, thanks so much. When we've been in person, you are the essence

of what you described today. You're just the beacon of energy and light and support and love. And it was conveyed in this conversation equally as much as if we're in person so thank you for the time to share and to allow us to to better understand and um you know if you haven't read one of john's books just do a quick search form there uh there's lots of them. And start with the energy bus or start with whichever one captures you. And you've also got a children's book as well.

So if you've got kids that you want to pass on some of the insights that John shared today, check out the energy bus for kids as well. And you can also go to iTunes and subscribe to this podcast of Finding Mastery. And if you hit a review and share that with other folks, it definitely helps us. You can also find us at findingmastery.net,

on Twitter at Michael Gervais, and there's some Facebook stuff as well, forward slash Finding Mastery. And so check out John's work. John, thank you again. Thanks, Michael. Thanks for bringing up the best in so many, including me. You really are amazing.

With that, thank you, John. We'll talk soon. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no-cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're listening. Also, if you haven't already, please consider dropping us a review on Apple or Spotify. We are incredibly grateful for the support and feedback. If you're

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