Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Jonathan Neman, sweetgreen Co-Founder and CEO

Episode Date: June 12, 2019

This week’s conversation is with Jonathan Neman, Co-Founder & CEO of sweetgreen, the destination for simple, seasonal, healthy real food.Jonathan and his co-founders Nathaniel Ru and Nicolas Jammet started sweetgreen in 2007, opening their first location in Georgetown, DC, just three months out of college.The mission driven brand's strong food ethos, embodiment of passion and purpose, tech-forward thinking and investment in local communities has enabled sweetgreen to disrupt the fast casual space and grow into a national brand with over 90 locations.Jonathan passionately believes in the democratization of real food - it should be convenient and accessible to everyone, which is why sweetgreen is on a mission to build healthier communities by connecting people to real food.He has been recognized as a key innovator in food and business, named to Fast Company's "50 Most Innovative Companies", Inc’s “30 Under 30”, Forbes’ “30 Under 30” and Food & Wine’s “40 Big Food Thinkers 40 and Under,” among other accolades.I wanted to speak with Jonathan because I went to his restaurant in New York City, loved the vibe.I wanted to understand how it was built and sure enough, you'll get a feel for just how thoughtfully they've curated their business._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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Like every restaurant at some point, like that is today at scale was really good when it was small, but over time, they lost their way. But if you look at other types of companies, that's not necessarily true. There's a lot of other companies that as they've gotten bigger, the product and experience actually has improved. So what was it about those companies and what is it about food that makes that so hard to do? And how can we start to redesign the system so we can make our experience and our food better as we get bigger, not get worse and kind of be this death by a thousand cuts.

All right, welcome back or welcome to the Finding Mastery podcast. And I am Michael Gervais by trade and training, a sport and performance psychologist, as well as the co-founder of Compete to Create. And the whole idea behind these podcasts, behind these conversations is to learn from people who are on the path of mastery. And we want to understand what they're searching for. We want to dig to get our arms around their psychological framework, which is really how do they explain themselves and events and give context to what's happening in the world,

you know, in their world, I should say, in the world in general as well. And we also want to understand the mental skills that they use to build and refine their craft. Finding Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Solutions. In any high-performing environment that I've been part of, from elite teams to executive boardrooms, one thing holds true. Meaningful relationships are at the center of sustained success. And building those relationships, it takes more than effort. It takes a real caring about your people. It takes

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seasonal, healthy, real food. Jonathan and his co-founders, Nathaniel Rue and Nicholas Jammett, started Sweetgreen back in 2007, opening their first location in the District of Columbia, Georgetown more specifically. And they were just a couple months out of college. Really cool way to get going. They are a mission-driven brand, and they've got a really strong food ethos and

they really are working to create something that embodies the passion that they're coming from and the purpose that they're driven by. And they're definitely tech forward in the way that they think about investing in local communities. And that's some of the reasons why Sweetgreen, it's been really disruptive, you know, in the casual food space. And they've built this into a national brand with over 90 locations already. So Jonathan passionately believes in democratization of real food. In his words, it should be convenient and accessible to everyone. And that's why Sweetgreen is, they're just on a mission to

build healthier communities by connecting people to real food. I love it. It's right down my strike zone. I hope that this conversation strikes a chord with you as well. And like, he's got the real chops. He's been recognized as a key innovator in food and business, named to fast companies, 50 most innovative companies, Inc's 30 under 30, Forbes 30 under 30, and the food and wines, 40 big food thinkers, 40 under 40. I mean, it's really cool. And so I wanted to speak with Jonathan because I went to his restaurant with my wife in New York City and the vibe was just great. And I wanted to understand how it was built. And sure enough, I think you'll get the feel from this conversation, just how thoughtfully they've curated their business and their experience for customers. So with that,

let's jump right into this conversation with Jonathan Neiman. Jonathan, what's up? Hello. Yeah, cool. So congrats on what you've done. Thank you. Thank you for having me today. I'm really happy to be here. Yeah, good. So I was first exposed to your restaurant. It was about 18 months ago, I think. And I was just saying to my wife, maybe about, I don't know, a month ago, like, God, I wish we had one of those sweet greens down here where we live. And so I'm stoked to have this conversation with you to figure out, you know, how you cracked it, how you have built what you've

built, and then also what are the frameworks that have led you to now? Let's say maybe not cracked it yet, but in the process of cracking it, hopefully. Yes. Okay. So give me a sense of where you are in your business arc. Yes. We think we're still very, very early. I'll take you back a little bit and tell you how we got really like a values driven brand. And it started with solving this problem in our own life, we wanted to solve a problem, where it really was just, we couldn't find a place to eat that was delicious, it was healthy, it was affordable. And the brand stood for something. And so it was one of those like harebrained ideas in, in college,'re like, oh, why don't we just do it ourselves? And so we spent senior year writing a business plan. We raised about $300,000 from about 50 people at the time.

So about $5,000 a person. And we opened our first restaurant. We opened it in a tiny old burger shack, a 500 square foot old burger shack off campus. And the idea was simple. It was source food from farmers directly, make it from scratch, make it fast, make it affordable, make it delicious, make healthy eating cool. And that was kind of the premise. And the mission was the same as it is today. It was about building healthier communities by connecting people to real food. But the approach obviously has evolved so much every day and every year that we progress. So we started off as really a pretty simple restaurant company, just with an innovative approach to sourcing. And we think kind of infused some know, mission into our brand. But over the years, as the world kind of

changed around us, we really worked to evolve the experience all in the spirit of getting closer to our customer. So that's always been like this driving force for us, this customer obsession of how do we get closer to our customer and how do we create better experiences for them, whether that be through physical or through technology or through storytelling. And so over the years, we've continued to open restaurants. We now have almost 100 restaurants around the country. We're in eight major cities. We've built out a really robust supply chain of over 350 small, medium and large sustainable farmers. And along the way, we've really invested a lot in both the brand and what that stands

for and this mission driven brand and the things we do in the community to tell our story, but also a lot on the technology side. And that's, I think, where it takes us into where we're going in the future, because the tech, you know, food is still 90 over 95% offline. You know, it's kind of we're kind of lucky because I get to study history and look at all these other industries before us. And look at these industries who are who have been disrupted by technology and food. Funny enough, was the one where i remember for years they'd say oh you're lucky food's the one that amazon will never do and and you know you

know now until now right yeah and of course technology is going to infiltrate into everything but for us it's always been how do you use technology to enhance this human experience not just technology for technology's sake. And so we started really investing in technology about five years ago, five or six years ago, as mobile adoption took off. And we built a mobile app. We rebuilt our restaurants around this mobile ordering experience. And today, mobile ordering is over 50% of our sales. So over 50% of our sales are directly done through a digital platform. And that gives us this opportunity to connect with our customers in a much deeper way. And so going forward from here, we really, really just created this opportunity.

We have this brand created, the supply chain. We've built an awesome team and we have some fuel in the tank. But now it's, what can we go do from here? How do we go take on the giants like McDonald's and create really one of the biggest food companies in the world but one that does things the right way? That's really cool. I mean that's why I'm saying congratulations. Like it was obvious by being in your stores that there's a heartbeat to it. And it wasn't like – let's use McDonald's for example.

Somehow they got some data across. I'm imagining that they should offer salads and something healthy. But nobody goes there. Sometimes we use that. We're not going to change the world ourselves. Sometimes we're like poking the giant and the fact that McDonald's sells kale now, we're partially responsible. And and the fact that mcdonald's sells sells kale now like we're partially responsible and that's yeah right i mean yeah it's super good but it's not it's not good when you go there like i don't enjoy that salad well actually i should i should say this in

fairness i've actually never had a salad there i've never even i don't know the last 20 years i've had i hadn't a burger there but when But when I see that, it doesn't fit. Maybe it's good. I don't know. But when I walk into your store, initially and immediately, I was like, they've got it. They've got the heartbeat of what people like me want, which is a good, solid meal, like healthful and thoughtful about how it's put together. So I'd rather, I don don't know i'm sure that

most of your customers are probably a little bit like this that i want to pay a little bit extra for something that is proper and when i mean proper it's not like there's no gmos going through it or at least it seems that way to me yeah maybe i should ask you it's it's yeah there's not and it's it's for us it's about it it's about true transparency from end to end across our supply chain. So us knowing where everything comes from and trusting it and being able to tell you where everything comes from. And it just goes down to like, that's what makes food taste good. It started with a simple premise of the reason our food is different in different parts of the country and changes throughout the years because that's how food comes out of the ground. And so we want to, you know, we say something that's really great. It's follow mother nature's lead. So when it comes to like how we

source food and how we make food, we're trying to just not mess up what comes out of the ground. And our chef has like, has this funny banter with our head of supply chain. He's like, my job is really just not to mess up what you do. My job is really not hard when he does his job right. And for us, technology comes in on everything else. It's how do we use technology to then bring that to scale? How do we use it to improve the experience from a personalization perspective, add delivery, optimize the employee experience? That's where the technology comes in.

But when it comes to the food, I want it to be as analog as possible. Okay. Are you a tech company or are you a food service company? We are a brand. We are a mission driven brand. I think people like ask this a lot. Like, yes, we have half of our team is technology. We are focused on technology. Technology, I believe technology is an accelerator, right? First and foremost, we are a brand and sometimes I consider ourselves a content company. So yeah, analogy we use at Sweetgreen is, the food we create is our content, it's our IP. So think about, I use Disney a lot

because I think it's a magical company in creating the best content. And so our job at Sweetgreen is to create the best content, which is food as content, food that is delicious, really nourishing. It's well marketed. It has a great story. It's well packaged. But then there's also the platform, which is the technology. It's how you interact with that food. How do you order it and how do you use technology to then make that

experience better and more frictionless for you? So at our core, we're a food company and a mission driven brand. And technology is that accelerator that lets us really go fast and do this at scale. Where'd you learn what you are saying? Because my scant understanding or my applied understanding of business is that you're using all the frames, which is I felt some pain, figured out what that was about,

figured out a solution, figured out how to solve the solution in our unique way raise capital by going to friends and family and then figured out the right snaps between technology brand and business like content so like where did you learn this so you know first of all one thing i I liked when I when I talked, especially students, which I sometimes I speak at schools, I like to remind them that this is not an overnight success. Like it's been 12 years of every day thinking that we're on the verge of bankruptcy and on the verge of world domination, like kind of at the same time. So it's not, you know, I think on the outside, these, our stories, all so many others look really, really glamorous. And like, we figured it all out.

And we knew it all along. And the reality is, is we didn't. And people also asked me, like, did you have this vision from day one of how like food and technology was going to come together? Like, absolutely not. Like the iPhone wasn't't created when we started Sweetgreen. There was no iPhone. And so we had this vision of the mission was the same of creating this global iconic food brand. But the way in which it was going to come to life has evolved as the world has evolved. But the way I've, I think, learned it is knowing that I, you know, just this beginner's mindset, like surrounding myself with people in across industry, across many industries that are solving these problems and being just a student of business.

So I love studying history, the history on business and reading case studies and not just in my world, if actually love learning more about other industries and trying to pull out the parallels. So right now, you know, I use the streaming parallel a lot and the media parallel. But there's so many parallels across business, whether what happened in retail or what's happened in different cycles in business around change and how we can apply those lessons to us? I also, you know, as a young entrepreneur, I like to say the only reason we did Sweetgreen is because we were naive enough to think we could. We were almost like dumb enough to think that you could create a local supply chain at scale and do these certain things that the industry people would have said was like stupid and crazy. And it probably was. But almost that naivete of not knowing and so just trying and then surrounding ourselves with people uh that

were willing to try to figure that out with us i think is what what got us here but we like i said we still haven't figured it out we're still we're hacking away at this problem every single day. Yeah. I don't, I, I hear the way you just used hack and I don't feel like you guys are hacking it, but you're hacking away at it, which feels totally different to me. Yes. Yes. Like you're not hacking the food technology brand business, but you are hacking away at the, the weeds that are in front of you correct and and for us it's you know what we offer the offering we have which is delicious food that it's nourishing and healthy and affordable and convenient like the offering the product market fit is very much there unlike you know a lot of companies like

software company once that's their scale is pretty easy right it just you kind of ship product through the internet right people download it for us it's the hacking is a lot of like okay now how do you take that experience and bring that to everywhere in the country everywhere in the world in a way that is consistent and affordable and so it's so in a way that is consistent and affordable. And so in a way, it's less of a demand problem. People want what we have to offer. It's how do you then scale this experience? We call it intimacy. How do we actually continue to do these things that make us special and do that at the scale of something like McDonald's? We have 100 restaurants. McDonald's has over 30,000. How do we do this and do it truly at a global scale? That's the hacking, which requires a lot of thinking about our supply chain, how we operate our kitchens, how people

order, what's the consumer experience. how do we, it's all that, that's the hacking part. Intimacy at scale. Yeah. Intimacy at scale. It's something we've been, we've used as a mantra at Sweetgreen pretty much since the beginning. And we've loved the, like, it doesn't make sense, right? Intimacy and scale, those two words don't make sense. And I think that's kind of what we love about it. That's a lot of the things around sweet green, like the frame we've used around a lot of the things around sweet green and this idea of the

sweet life have been these two things that shouldn't go together. But when they do, there's something magical about it. And intimacy at scale is one of those things. It's like, some things shouldn't be done. Something that I talk to my team all the time about is if you look at food and food brands, there's pretty much no food brand that as they've gotten bigger, they've gotten better. Like every restaurant at some point, like that is today at scale,

was really good when it was small. But over time, they lost their way. But if you look at other types of companies, that's not necessarily true. There's a lot of other companies that as they've gotten bigger, the product and experience actually has improved. So what was it about those companies and what is it about food that makes that so hard to do and how can we start to redesign the system so we can make our experience and our food better as we get bigger not get worse and kind of be this death by a thousand cuts finding mastery is brought to you by momentous when it comes to high performance whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday, what you put in your body matters. And that's why I trust Momentus. From the moment I sat down with Jeff Byers, their co-founder and

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think that's the hardest part about business. That's the part that you'll never figure out, right? It's that leadership and the people and having the right people on, organizing them the right way, continuing to motivate them and prioritize. And so it's a lot of that, the people aspect and managing and leading people that I think is the hardest part about what we do. How old are you, Jonathan? I'm 34. 34. And are you managing people older than you? Yes. And how's that?

You know, I approach it from a place of learning, really, especially a lot you know my executive team today is you know people who are not just far older than me they're far in in their in their domains are true experts in their domains whether it's my head of data my cto my cfo my head of people like everyone on my team they're way i mean it's not just age but they you know, years of experience and wisdom. And so I approach it from like a student place and how can I learn from them? And my job isn't to's really, you know, how do I give ownership of certain domains to my team and create just create the sandbox where they can where they can go play and create. And so that's what I think about my, you know, as my job is, I don't, you know, really, in a perfect world, I have three jobs. It's not always a perfect world, but a perfect world in a perfect world, it'd be setting the vision and the strategy and communicating it to all my to all stakeholders, it would be building that recruiting built and building the team. And it would be making sure we have enough fuel or capital to make it

all happen. Of course, there's days where I got to put out fires and do, you know, I'm still, I'm still like a player coach. I'm still doing a lot myself, but in a perfect world, like that would be my job. Okay. So when you went from three to nine people, do you remember that part of your arc? Yeah. So, you know, it was, so I have two co-founders who I still, who are still my partners. And we, we lead the company together, Nicholas and Nathaniel. They're also my best friends. And so I'm very fortunate in having them.

I think a lot of the magic of Sweetgreen and the culture and the brand is, is kind of this fusion of the three of our personalities as well as our skill sets. And so for the first three or four years, it was just really the three of us. I mean, we had from like a corporate perspective, we had field teams like employees in our restaurants, but in terms of like a management team, it was just the three of us until we opened our fourth restaurant. And I remember that was the point where we said, OK, let's not just create a restaurant company, let's create a brand. And to do that, we need to invest ahead of the curve. We got it. We got to go hire people that know what they're doing.

And I remember we went and we brought on a group of people it was and some of them who are still with us uh one uh one one of the guys who joined us came straight out of georgetown his name is tim he joined us and he he drove uh he joined us to do special projects and the first special project was running uh driving our food truck we had like a frozen yogurt truck in dc and that was his job and today he's our uh he's our vice president of r&d and he's been in between from there now till then he's been leading development the next was like a head of operations um that we hired who had worked at you know a chain much bigger than ours we brought on like you know someone in accounting and finance and then we

brought on a marketing person and i remember all of all of a sudden it was like not just the three of us. It was, okay, now we got to figure out how to. That was the moment where we realized it was super important, not just about doing, but to setting frameworks for how we get work done. That was the moment where we always had these values kind of intrinsically in us. But our core values, we really had to write them down and explain what they meant so that anyone could make those decisions, whether we were there or not. That's when, you know, our leadership competencies and our core values and like the frameworks around decision making all had to be brought into place because it wasn't just us anymore. And the three of us were always

together sitting in a room. We almost thought the same. So it was how do we create frameworks to do that at scale? And again, that changes every two years as the business hits this different inflection point in scale and goes from a tribe to a village and a village to a city. All of those things break and you have to recreate them. And we're kind of going through one of those right now. We have about 250 people in our corporate headquarters today. We'll end the year with probably 350 people. And a year ago, we had

about 100, 125. And so we're at this massive growth cycle and a lot of the processes that we had put in place and the ways we did things have kind of broken down and we have to rebuild them. Did you take on capital or are you self-funding from the operation, the net from the operations? We have taken capital along the way. Quite a bit of capital, actually. The first five years, we raised money from angel investors. So it was angels and friends and family. And we did lots of very kind of small rounds, financing one restaurant at a time. The thing about restaurants is they're expensive. Our restaurants today are about a million dollars. And so we raised capital for the first five years, kind of piecemeal. But then in 2013, we took our first institutional capital. And it was the first time we were always

kind of scared of doing it just because we didn't know what that was going to mean from a control perspective, but like how that was going to change our culture. But it was the right, for us, it was the right thing to do because we realized we were making decisions for the short term. And if we had the right capital structure, we could really think bigger, build a team for the long term and truly invest in the brand. So in 2013, we raised our first institutional capital and it was Steve Case from Revolution in DC joined us then. And then since then, we've had a number of subsequent rounds. Most recently, we raised quite a large round last fall where we raised $200 million. So in total, we've raised over $300 million over the past 12 years. Okay. And what are some of the frameworks that you're using to get the most out of your

people? And I'm not talking about like squeezing them so they work harder or longer. I'm talking about that framework. This is what I'm interested in. Maybe you'll disagree, but like helping people flourish so that they know that the time that they're with you, that they're doing their most meaningful work, that they are really switched on and thriving and figuring it out and as much as they can, loving life. So what are some of the frameworks that you're using there to help amplify that tone. And, and listen, I just, I've made a big guess that that's what you're trying to do. And if you're not, if you're like, listen, dude, it's a, it's a business and like, it sounds good, but you got to show up and grind and we're going to pay

you really well. And we've got a, you know, some sort of equity pool or, or profit sharing that you're part of. And it bottom line is for us, bottom lines, like I, you know, I sort of equity pool or profit sharing that you're part of. And bottom line is for us, bottom lines, like, you know, maybe I'm making an inappropriate guess, but I just want to hear. Yeah, the first thing for us, and when you talk to us, the first thing that comes through is our mission. And that's what I think really exciting about what we're doing. We're so we're solving a massively huge and just a massive problem, right? It's 40% of the people in the U.S. eat fast food every single day. 40% of people in the U.S., U.S. adults are obese. You know, there's different studies that talk about the effects of food on health care.

You know, in a lot of ways, we think about ourselves as a health care company. And, you know, there's different numbers thrown out. But a lot of studies say that 90% of the healthcare issues we have, or the cost, the healthcare costs we have could be prevented with better eating 90%. And so that's kind of like the big frame of like, how do we solve this massive problem around food and food health and sustainability, which is the first like intrinsic motivator so we really look for people who believe in that who aren't just here you know who aren't mercenaries just for another job you know because of the cash and equity like we believe in paying

well because i think that's we want to take care of people but uh it's not i don't think that ever that's ever the main reason people come to us or at least the people who really thrive come for come for like a higher reason. From there, a lot of it has to do with growth, growth opportunities and learning. And so what's something we talk I talk a lot about and believe in is change and adaptation. Our business is changing so rapidly. And some of the things we're doing today, you could have never imagined even like two years ago working on. Today we have a machine learning team and we're building really cool things with data.

I could have never imagined even three years ago that being a part of our business and having a whole department dedicated to it. But, but the world has changed the world around us changed and we've had to adapt to that. And so people's jobs will, will have to continue to change. And so I look for people who are really adaptable people who can learn how to learn. How do you select them? What, what do you do to suss that out? So that, I'd love to ask you how you would do that. That's a good one, I know. I'll ask you because I don't think I've fully cracked that.

I think we have, you know, I just try to get it in an interview. I try to get it from looking at someone's experience and the why behind some of their decisions, as well as what they learned. You know, one of my favorite interview questions is going through and saying, what did you learn? Like, and trying to pull out, like, within each stage of someone's career, like, what did you learn?

How did you grow? What are some ways in which you do it? Yeah, no, no, no. I think that that's the right curious approach, right? And there's learning styles, like how people learn and there's, you know, the old VKA approach, visual kinesthetic auditory is not really the right way, but it's an interesting frame of how they learn. But what you're looking for is their aptitude for learning, their curiosity, their thirst to learn.

Exactly. I want someone who's, you know, an all around-around athlete. It's someone who can be an owner and not just a, okay, I hired you for operations or I hired you for marketing. connected to the mission and they're just just bright hard-working analytical curious and adaptable where it's like if they had to be thrown in and become like a gm of a region or go work in uh operations or go help incubate a new business unit uh could they do that though i mean what i would the frame i actually use for for what i put what i what i talked to my team about and what i think about is if we were going to go open overseas and i needed to see we needed a ceo of every like let's say we needed a ceo for every territory or globally would this person who may be a marketing person today and or an operations person today could this person be adaptable in a way where with time

we said hey we're opening Japan. You're, you're the one that we're, you're going to Japan and you're opening up sweet green in Japan. That's kind of like what I, the way I think about it in my head. Yeah, that's a cool frame. I think what you want to sort out, what you're trying to sort out is, are you more interested in what you know or what you don't know? And I want to find people that they're more interested. They're so hungry to know what they don't know that they think about it at night. They think about it in the morning. They have conversations at lunch about it. They're just trying to sort out. And then there's the other ones, the experts that are, you know, really clear that they want to just

demonstrate everything that they know. And so that tends to get really clear when you have conversations with people, you know, hard questions. And when they say, God, you know, that's, that's really, that's challenging, you know, and the fact that you said that you bounced over to me, you're like, Okay, Mike, I'm not really sure how do you do it? So you're, you intuitively already have it, right? So it's finding that kind of thing that you do as well. Yeah, and that's, I think, what people – it's also much more exciting for people to work somewhere where they're solving a really big problem and where they get ownership. What do you mean by ownership? Like are you giving equity or are you talking ownership over their job?

Ownership over their job. So autonomy. over their job ownership over their job so we do give that yeah it's autonomy but it's it's you know we we we talk you know we talk about this idea of like single-threaded ownership how do you give someone the ability no matter where they are in the organization to have ownership over an initiative over a project and see it from end to end and that means working cross-functionally and pulling resources together. So it's like you're not working just throughout through your team, but you have this like virtual team of people that don't technically report to you. And it's a really tough thing to get across because you have to sometimes learn when to lead and when to follow.

And you're giving ownership over a project and you're like, okay, go, here's your, here's what, you know, we use OKRs, here's the OKR, here's, here's what you're trying to achieve. You tell me what resources you need. You tell me what team you need to do it and go. But you're getting, you're asking people that aren't technically reporting to you in your department and maybe at different levels to follow you. What's an OKR? An OKR is an objective and key result. It's a framework we use for strategic planning.

Objective and key results. So similar to a KPI, but more about the objective, more about the results. Yeah, so it'll say, you know, so an objective for us this year is meet customers wherever they are, right? Then underneath that objective will be a few key results, would be like X customers ordering delivery or X millions of dollars in delivery revenue. It's the thing, so it's like you got to hit the overall objective, which the objective could span a few years in terms of how we get there. And then the key results would be like milestones along the way.

And then if they hit those, is it a bonus structure or is it you get to keep your job? There is a bonus structure. Again, I think as a company is figuring out all of these processes, it's not that black and white. It's more, here's the opportunity. Here's what you're responsible for. Yes, if you hit your OKR, you're more likely to get your bonus. And if you miss it, it doesn't mean you're losing your job. But we're trying to move to a more performance-based culture

where people are really given the resources they need to run, but then it's more about the output, not just like, okay, I tried. A for effort, I tried really hard. Okay, so we've got a startup. How would you advise? We've got, I think, about seven, nine people. So how would you imagine

incentivizing from pay? Because like, I feel like I'm a total fish out of water that I'm doing it because I love it. I'm doing it because it's, I'm relentlessly obsessed with like how people flourish. And so it's primarily internally driven. And that's why I say fish out of water, but not everyone that is working with the team is as internally driven and that's why I say fish out of water but not everyone that is working with the team is as internally driven as I am so there's an external motivation for well there's an external need for all of us you know for money at least so how would you recommend at early days to incentivize pay that's a great question. So can I ask a few questions? Yeah, please.

So what, is this a real startup? Oh yeah, yeah, we're a couple of years in. Okay, so what's the mission of the startup? The mission is to help people live in the present moment more often. Love that. Are you getting people that are doing it, like you feel like people are joining because they believe in that mission or kind of living that life themselves? Yes.

Okay. Okay, great. I think that's, that's first and foremost, really important. Is it, do you have a, do you have the capital to pay them? Yeah, you can, you can pay,, we do. You can pay reasonable salaries. Well, yeah, for sure, reasonable salaries. And we're bootstrapped, completely bootstrapped. We are profitable and healthy. And by nowhere are we at the financial kind of targets of what we one day could imagine. But it's really the targets are how many people can we impact and create a healthy business, you know, so that we can play the long game. And is there you think there's a potential for, you know, an outsized upside from like an equity perspective?

What does that mean? You know, you look at like, could someone who gets equity, could it be worth 10 times that, 50 times that? Oh, yeah, yeah. Like we are, just as a business, the name of the company is called Compete2Create. We're running downhill really fast. We've been fortunate enough to work with enterprise companies that are buying licenses at scale. We've got an online eight week online course and they're buying licenses at scale. And so, yeah, it's really good.

So we have, we've got a real challenge of meeting the demand and at the same time, figuring out how to scale across multiple channels. Right. And so I'm trying to sort out like how, I'll tell you what my fear is. I was part of a program earlier or business earlier where we overpaid and overcompensated and people got just, their motivations got all twisted around and it was almost nearly impossible to manage. And so anyways, I'm trying not to rob flourishing from internal perspective.

And then I'm also like, I want, I want people to win and feel great. And so and at the same time, not have the company be on a shoestring. Yeah. So, so my, my philosophy on pay is it changes at different scales and it changes. Sometimes you have to pay for play, right, in certain places where you can't attract the talent. And certain times people just want to come for the learning experience. And so it depends where you sit on that spectrum. I think great people want to come to learn, especially early in their career. And so if you're like

that place and you're known for that, you may be giving someone more value in their career. And so if you're like that place and you're known for that, you may be giving someone more value in their learning experience than the money. But in certain places where you just need an expert, let's say it's like you just need a technical expert to come in and they're not learning a whole lot. They're just coming and doing. You may need to pay for it. But in general, my overall philosophy is to pay above average from a cash compensation perspective.

And so people can live comfortably and not be kind of struggling in their life. Not enough where they're like putting so much money aside where they kind of lose their motivation, but enough money where, you know, they're good. And that's not like a worry of theirs they can they can feel like they're valued and enjoy their life um from an equity perspective i really think it depends on the individual individual and sometimes depends uh on that the level of that individual what we found is certain individuals um especially the people who are like these startup startup minded, have maybe been there before and seen it, are really motivated by equity.

I love it when sometimes people say, I'll take way less cash and more equity because I believe in the upside of this. And I think those people are awesome because they're in it with you. That's how, as a founder, that's pretty much how you get paid. And so finding those people and then structuring the equity in a way, whatever that vesting is that makes sense. I think there should be some sort of vesting schedule. Some sort of vesting schedule for that is the other piece of it. When it comes to bonus, this is a really interesting one because I go back and forth on it, like the traditional bonus versus, you know, I know some companies

are switching to no bonus at all. And I find it really, really interesting. They're getting rid of bonus entirely because a lot of it has to do with the psychology of a bonus. And so when you think about it, and we haven't done this yet, but it's something I'm really contemplating. When you think about it, let's say someone makes $100 a year and has the potential to make a 20% bonus. That person really thinks of themselves as making $100 a year. That's like what in their head when they're like evaluating the job when they're looking at it, or once they're in it. That's how they like when they're looking at it compared to other jobs, they kind of consider it. That's how they like look at

it. But the bonus, if they then don't get it, they're really, really upset if they don't get it. So it's almost like a negative thing when they miss a bonus that they actually don't value in the first place. So what if, if you had a high bar for performance, instead of just paying everyone 100 plus 20% potential, you paid everyone 115 or even 120 and had a high bar for performance where if people weren't performing, they weren't on the team anymore. And there's, you know, there's, I don't know, I don't remember the exact numbers, but someone was telling me that bonus, cash is viewed at like 100, it's cash comp is viewed as cash comp 100, like indexes at 100. Bonus is viewed at like, I think like 60 cents on the dollar in someone's mind. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down.

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If you're looking for high quality personal care products that elevate your routine without complicating it, I'd love for you to check them out. Head to calderalab.com slash finding mastery and use the code finding mastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash finding mastery. You bring up something interesting. Like that's a really important frame, which is they don't see themselves as making 120. They see it, make it a hundred that I could get 20 if everything went well or everything goes well. And it does screw with motivations. It just flat out does. And so I like the idea of maybe 110, 115, but that's, um, that's a stable approach. Okay. That being said is how do you fire? How do we fire? Um, okay. So something that never gets easier. Um, I remember the first time I did it, uh, and it was so, so painful, you know, it's like

breaking, breaking up a girlfriend kind of feeling really really difficult to do because you really you know at least the way we work you get really close to people and you get really really close and it's not they're just they're friends also it's not just like people that you work with I I think the best, the best way to fire is where it's definitely not a surprise where it's, and you're having, you're having constant conversations of feedback, setting expectations. And then it's pretty clear of like, are people meeting those expectations or not? So you really shouldn't in a way have to fire someone. It should pretty much like take care of itself. People will realize they're not hitting expectations and either decide to leave or you you may have to

have that conversation but it should not be it should not be a surprise you know something we believe in is is uh tough on standards easy on people so when people like have tough standards have high expectations agree up front of what those expectations are, give people the tools and the resources to achieve those things, and give people the benefit of the doubt, especially when, you know, when they're fully committed. But if time and time again, people are not, you know, able to hit those things, it's either that they're the wrong person for the role, or maybe they're, and they don't belong in the company, but sometimes they're just in the wrong seat. And that's the other thing.

Oftentimes, people are just sitting in the wrong place. Maybe you just need someone else to lead them, and maybe they're in a role that is above their head, and they just need some more time to learn. Something that people, I think think especially in this generation the millennials i can i feel like i can i can make fun of the millennial generation because i am one um they uh very obsessed with title um i feel like this like career progression and title progression is is a bit obsessive it It's like, all right, when am I, you know, how do I get to become a VP in like two years? And I think that something that I tell people is you don't want, you know,

the last thing you want is someone to you to get a job that you're not ready for. Because then you're kind of, there's nowhere for you to go. Well, once you're in a job, you're not going to like go back down once you've got that title. So it's really about being ready for the job and then getting it, not just being handed a title. I love it. Okay, so can you bring me back to a time when you were way over your skis, when you thought, what have I gotten myself into? And it could be in business or it could be in life. It could be relationship.

It could be sport. It could be anything. But I want to see if we could deconstruct how you work in that state of mind. Let's see. Way over my seas. Oh, so you consider yourself to be pretty confident in just about every part of life? No, definitely, definitely not. Okay. I mean, listen, let's use the past.

I think just like kind of right now, let's just say, the past few years uh i so about the three uh so for the first eight or nine years of the business uh the three myself and my two co-founders ran as co-ceos um we had a much simpler business as well as much more of a i'd say like a linear business we were just opening restaurants there was no today we're becoming a multi like an omni-channel business with delivery and outposts and pickup. And there's a lot more, it's just much more multidimensional in how the business works and the scale has gotten much bigger. But at first it was just open another restaurant, open another restaurant, open another restaurant. It was single product, single channel. And we ran as co-CEOs and it worked brilliantly for a while. But a couple of years ago, it was getting to the point

where we needed to divide and conquer. And it was time for us to kind of take each individual roles in the company. The three of us agreed together, but it forced a lot of changes for each of us right like we each went from kind of just being founders in a way like Kosios we were just like found essentially like three founders that all did everything but it was not clear who did what and who made what decisions to each of us having very clear roles I became CEO my partner Nicholas became chief concept officer running uh supply culinary and development. And Nathaniel, my other partner, became chief brand officer running all things creative, creative marketing and brand. And those were always kind of like our superpowers, but it was very ambiguous in how we divided that work. At the same time, we were making a big pivot as a business

from a retail business to a consumer-first business. And that's where we really started investing in technology. And so I was going through, I think, two big things where I got in over my skis. One was, okay, we knew the world had to change. You know, our business had to change. And my biggest fear was becoming blockbustered, which was just like opening a bunch of old retail boxes and the world changing and Netflix coming and us not meeting that customer where they are. At the same time as my job changing, which was I was essentially like a founder that we shared responsibility and we kind of had this executive team that helped us do a lot of the work to being like the accountable

CEO. And so I had to learn two things kind of at the same time while turning the ship. One was, okay, what does it mean to be a CEO? And how do I have to show up differently? And the second was, I had to learn a whole new part of the business, which was the technology side of the business. I've always been curious about technology from a business perspective, but I do not have a computer science degree. I'm not an engineer, not a data scientist, I'm not a product person. I didn't even know how you structure those organizations. And today we have over 100% technology organization between product, data and engineering. And so I had to really, so at the same time, we painted this picture, this vision of the company we wanted to build was this, you know, almost like this Netflix of food. It was going to be technology driven, a food platform. And that's

what I, you know, I think the world and our customers wanted that. And so I had to figure out my, over my skis was trying to figure out how to, how to build a technology org and lead a technology org while also learning how to be a first time CEO. Even though I'd been a co-CEO for eight years, about as of 18 months ago, it was like a first-time CEO. And instead of like growing, most CEOs I think get to grow with their company. Like all of a sudden I had 3,000 employees and I was CEO. So I'd say the past 18 months has been in way over my skis. I think the important thing is like okay so what did i do um i i when i got a coach um first thing i did is i went i went and realized like i don't know

how to do this and i went and i went and got an executive coach that i work with still today which has been awesome um and it's and it's helped me has helped me just so much and and being a mirror for me and helping provide frameworks and and helped me grow a whole lot and really just a lot of it's been around the self-reflection piece of like okay where am i and where do i need to grow um and the second piece is is back to surrounding myself uh surrounding myself with people on the especially on the technology side that have done this and talking to other ceos have done this and just really immersing myself in that world and reading about it and doing everything I can. And so I haven't figured it out yet, but I've thrown, I just kind of threw myself in the deep end on both of those things. And on both the CEO thing and on the technology side, I've just kind of thrown myself in and have failed a bunch.

But I consider myself pretty courageous. I don't really care when I fail. It doesn't hurt me. I just get back up and try it again. Was it like that for you as a kid as well? Yeah. Yeah. I've always been a bit of an adrenaline junkie.

Adrenaline junkie. And just like, I don't, I have this weird frame, especially now in work, where I just, sometimes when things are so serious and stressful, I almost try to like, take a step back out of myself and witness myself and almost realized that like, okay, what if this is what we do is I think serious and important, but sometimes we take it so seriously, especially when you're in it from a first person perspective. So what if you just kind of removed yourself out of your body and, and played it as if it was a video game. And that's kind of this frame sometimes when it's, when it's like really serious, you're in a board meeting. You're pitching investors. All these things. It's so real when you're in it. And it seems like the stakes are so high. But if you just remove yourself a little bit and remember that it's just kind of a game.

I kind of picture myself in the matrix. And it helps take the high stakes away so you can just jump headfirst into it. Yeah, I can find myself like there's times when I'm in it and I'm like, oh, my God, this feels awful. And that's when I tend to snap into what it feels like and then zoom out and I go, oh, look at that. And to be able to watch from a distance, almost like a, I don't know, a little corner camera angle, right? In a room. Yeah. It just creates a little bit of space. It's like, oh, there we go. Okay. Jesus, what are you doing, dude? Why is it when you do anything where the stakes are really high, right? Like think about like, you know, let's say you had to walk one foot in front of another or just one foot off the floor.

You'd have no problem. You'd walk across the whole room. But all of a sudden, if you did that 1,000 feet in the air, you'd just freak out. Do you ever see any of those videos on Instagram where people are doing just that from like they're riding little scooters or skateboards on top of big buildings? Have you seen some of those things on Instagram? Yeah. I mean just watching that. And I know plenty of those folks.

But what they're doing isn't that crazy when you just think about like if you just did that on without the risk. And I love to surf and sometimes it's so interesting because like surf on small and small medium waves complete confidence will push into a wave as hard as i can like and everything works out really well all of a sudden the way you know waves get big and there's a reef underneath and all of a sudden the fear just makes it so that you actually surf worse because of like that lack of confidence. And so it's almost like if you just didn't know that the reef was underneath you and you surfed it the same way you would, if it was a beautiful sand bottom, would you surf better?

Yes. And surfing is what got me into this whole game as well, is that really that space between commitment, hesitation. And it was usually the perceived consequence that created the hesitation, not skill or lack of skill. It's the perceived consequence. And then that perceived consequence, whether it's in business or in relationship or surfing, whatever, is all a function of our framework.

And that is where investing in psychological framework and doing the self-discovery work pays like 10x, 20x, 30x. Because imagine how many waves that you could have had, should have had, would have had, if you would have invested in focusing your mind to be in the present, as opposed to thinking about what could. All those waves that have missed. And that's the center of that business that I was talking about is doing all of that work I love that. open heart and focused mind to be able to explore the potential that you've you that you know lies within you and the skill with the demands of the environment and when you get those things lined up right that's where all happens you know and you're just in that you get that in that flow state and you're not thinking about the risk anymore you're just you're just loving it it's

it's that enjoyment and it's not about someone watching you catch that wave. It's just, it feels so good being in it. Yeah. I love it. Where, where have you traveled to surf? Like where are some of your favorite spots? Uh, uh, hopefully going to go to Mexico this weekend if I can get, uh, get away. Um, I love to go to, I love to go to Mexico, love to go to costa rica which part of mexico um usually go down to like todos santos cabo costa costa azul area um but also baja um when it's when we want to drive um like costa rica you know the few times i've been i just love i spent a year living in australia where i really like fell in love with surfing and then just up and down the Australian coast which just was unbelievable I live in Venice Beach I surf here you know I surf here in California a lot whether it's you know Venice

is the best surf break in the world but it's steps away from my home so I get to you know get to surf you know a couple times a week or before work, which makes the day much, much better. I'm trying to work less because I realize I'm actually better when I work less. It's more about the higher quality decisions. For a long time, I was overworked, and I still kind of am. I was working probably 70 plus hours a week, and I'm trying to make it more like a really quality 50 hours a week and and create some more space in my day and some more some more space in my day and some more space in my mind because I think it's it's more about the quality of decision making and the quality

of thinking than just like the amount of working and surfing reminds me of that a lot. And surfing is like the one thing I do a lot to like try to balance myself, whether it's surfing and yoga and meditation. But surfing is the one thing that kind of like, wipes my stress all away. Like when I'm sitting out on my surfboard. It's like the one thing where even if I'm not even catching waves, I could just sit there. And it's just like my true, true happy place. And, uh, and I think a lot of the things you're talking about around performance and lessons in life and surfing is like, I feel those when I'm out there and I get a lot of these like weird insights just sitting out on a surfboard, like whether it's having a magical day or getting pummeled by some waves. Like it's like these like lessons from,

from the universe coming to you. Awesome and heavy and wonderful. It's so true. There's something about being in nature. That's really important. And, uh, you know,

and there's something about being in challenge, inviting challenge. It's really important. Those two frames are part of my everyday rhythm, you know, like looking for challenge and, and trying to get, uh, synced with nature in some kind of way, even when I'm sitting in the office all day, like, you know, there's still opportunities to figure it out. Okay. So let me get to a couple of quick hits with you. Do you do what you think is right or feel is right?

Oh, think is right or feel is right. More think is right. Are you more self-critical or self-positive? Self-positive. Do you make fast decisions or slow decisions? I'm pretty obsessed with that thinking fast and slow book. So I used to make really fast decisions. And now I really try to take a second and parse out which ones should be fast and which ones I need to sit on my surfboard and meditate on. And so I say, naturally, I'm a fast decision maker. But I think I've realized that, certain decisions are good to be fast

and there's no risk there. And certain decisions, I just, you gotta like go for a run and let it just, you know, let it simmer. And the answer just comes to you. Okay. More optimistic or pessimistic. Um, I'm like the biggest optimist. I'm like so high indexed on the optimism side.

Did you come from a family that supported that or did you build that? I came from a family that supported that. Okay. Do you fall on the more anxious side or depressed side? I find myself to be very positive, so hopefully neither. But if it was one of the two, more anxious than depressed. Uh-huh, yeah. And then where does pressure come from?

I think it's this internally driven thing of just continuing to push. It's like this internal growth, this internal engine of growth that I think the pressure comes from that, just from the inside. It all comes down to? It all comes down to love. Success is? is peace of mind love is and success it's peace of mind but also making an impact okay and then how do you define love love man if i could define love i I'd be in a different job. Define love. It's a true connectedness.

It's just like a true connectedness that goes both ways, that flows both ways. a good answer that's really cool yeah good job okay so um thank you and i've got only got a couple more questions here like mechanically like how do you define or articulate or think about the concept of mastery the concept of mastery um let's see uh i think for me it's it's about it's it's back this idea of evolution right so it's it's mastery really is is short-lived it's it's how mastery is like this self-master how could you keep how can you do it again and again those are are the masteries that I respect so much are people who did it in one world, did it in another, did it again.

That recreation is something that I really, really love, that reinvention and creation. And then the second part of mastery that I think, the way I define is so so many people master like one sphere of their life whether it's like their work life but then are super unhappy and haven't mastered their love life their personal life their family life and of course this is like I mean this is the ultimate mastery you know I had a professor in college who talked about this idea of the house of equilibrium and it was like all the rooms in your house and it's your career your love your spirituality your

family and uh i think mastery is is how do you find i hate the word balance but i love this word like this idea of integration how do you find this like life work, love integration where it all flows together? How are you doing there? Like if you were to pull zoom back and give yourself a score, um, I'd say seven ish, seven ish. That's cool's cool um i think it's it's hard the job is really demanding and can be really like i hate the word stressful but it can be very very stressed it's just a lot to handle

and so i'm i'm self-adjusting to it you know figuring out ways whether it's the surfing surfing meditation like what are the ways in which to to thrive in doing this um take care of myself something i really gone real conscious of is how do i the more i take care of myself i can then be there for other people and sometimes i like a natural overextender so i will try to be there for everyone and then when i do i overextend and for me like naturally my back will fall out because my body's telling me to stop and then i can't be there for anyone and so i'm really kind of learned to take care of myself first and then i can and then my capacity grows and i can be there for everyone else awesome what's your

meditation practice looking like it's been uh it's been really strong actually i've uh i committed i've been meditating for years but it was never like consistent consistent and so at the end of last year i told myself every day this year i will not miss a day no matter what like no matter what what like i will do it every single day and so so far in 2019 uh been meditating every day i try to do it twice a day 20 minutes in the morning and then 20 minutes in the afternoon and i do i just do like a tm practice this work really cool yeah are you a meditator oh 20 years yeah wow 20 years and also t, not TM. What do you, what do you do? More, more single pointed with a mix of contemplative, you know, so I'll start with a single point and

then some days I'll stay with that. Some days I'll explore. Awesome. Awesome. Yeah. It's so powerful. And I mean, sometimes I can't, don't know how to live without it. Yeah. Well, most people say, I don't know how to fit it in. I'm like, how can you not? Yeah. Yeah. And there's the, there's the, that's what it was for me.

Sometimes it was like, oh, I could use 20 more minutes of email, but it's like, no, just 20 minutes stop. And then the time expands. It's amazing. All right. Really cool. Stoked to meet you. I can amazing. All right. Really cool. Stoked to meet you. I can really sense why Sweetgreen is thriving. And so I know it's a complicated algorithm

and of people and processes. And, you know, I totally get the business frames that you're working to solve, but it sure seems like you got a heartbeat that is animated and infectious and, you know, thoughtful. So congrats on what you've done. Thank you. So, so good. So good to meet you and chat with you. This has been awesome. And I'm such a huge fan of what you're,

such a huge fan of the, you know, the philosophy you're putting out into the world. So keep doing it. Oh, cool, man. All right, good. Well, hopefully we can find some surf at doing it. Oh, cool, man. All right, good. Well, uh, hopefully we can find some surf at some point. Yeah, for sure. Give me one, give me one book that you think people would benefit from reading. That's been important to you. Uh, I love, I love reading. Um, and I get so much inspiration. I,

the book I read recently, just recently, that really helped change the way i thought a lot was uh you've all know hariri's new book 21 lessons yeah yeah uh which can be extreme for some people but i found it to be super fascinating super extreme i love it i mean he's like brilliant so really and speaking about meditation i, what I love about him is his clarity, like his clarity of thought. And he talks about at the end, he's a huge meditator. It takes like three months a year sitting in silence. And I think like the way he's able to convey these really complex things in such clear language and clear thought is just amazing.

Yeah. Anytime you can boil down the whole history and future of humanity yeah in less than 10 000 pages yeah so okay brilliant thank you and um kick ass awesome okay all right take you so much for diving into another episode of finding mastery with us our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no-cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're listening. Also, if you haven't already, please consider dropping us a review on Apple or Spotify. We are incredibly grateful for the support and feedback. If you're looking for

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