Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Judd Apatow: "Never Stop Learning and Never Stop Growing"

Episode Date: April 16, 2025

What does it take to stay emotionally grounded in an industry built on ego? This week, we sit down with Judd Apatow—the legendary director, producer, and comedy mastermind behind some of the most influential films and TV shows of the past three decades. From "Freaks and Geeks" to "The 40-Year-Old Virgin," Judd has not only created cultural touchstones but has become known as one of Hollywood's greatest talent spotters and mentors.This conversation with Judd explores the inner workings of a master of craft—how empathy, vulnerability, relentless curiosity, and a deep respect for people have shaped his creative process, and how he stays grounded through it all. From Judd's early days obsessing over comedy as a form of connection, to his transformative experience with Steve Martin as a twelve-year-old fan, to leading with emotional intelligence on set, Judd reveals what it really takes to build greatness—not just in the work, but in the people around you.Whether you're a comedy fan, a creative leader, or someone interested in the human side of success, this conversation with Judd offers wisdom about craft, relationships, and finding meaning in service to others.I hope you enjoy this conversation with the incredible Judd Apatow._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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stay present and engaged with my thinking and writing. If you wanna slow down, if you wanna work smarter, I highly encourage you to check them out. Visit remarkable.com to learn more and grab your paper pro today. Would you rather work with someone mediocre who's really easy and kind and fun to deal with, or would you rather work with a genius who's a pain in the ass? I would rather work with a genius. What does it take to stay emotionally grounded in an industry that is built on ego? Welcome back, or welcome to the Finding Mastery Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Michael Gervais, by trade and training a high-performance psychologist.

Today's guest is the legendary writer, director, and producer Judd Apatow, whose work has helped launch some of the biggest names in comedy. Seth Rogen, Emma Stone, Amy Schumer, Jack Black. We explore the inner workings of a master of craft. I try to look at each project as if none of the other projects exist. Having succeeded the last time does not do anything for you this time. How empathy, vulnerability have shaped his creative process. Having people feel encouraged that I care about their ideas. So you work on the scene and you write the scene and you rehearse the scene,

but then you don't want to hold it so tight that something else can't happen. And that's the moment that you never could have thought of in the writing. I want to encourage you to tune into how Judd is really skilled at staying connected to his emotions, not being overrun by them. There's always like a dark, dark side to fighting for what you believe in and behaving in ways that you're not proud of. Sometimes in service to the work, sometimes in service to your ego and fear that it's going to get screwed up.

Let's jump right into this fantastic conversation. Judd Apatow. Comedians scare me. Because I don't know where you're going to go. Judd, this feels like a long time coming. Yes. I've watched your work from a distance for a long time and like, holy moly, I am sitting with Judd right now. Okay. And when we, we've known each other for a while, um, nice lunch, good, good conversations, good kind of like banter back and forth. And like, I'm fascinated by a couple of things in the business world. Um, and in the

sport world too, but in the business world, attracting talent, building talent, retaining talent is a really important competitive advantage. Not only is it good for the business, but it is right for humans to say, look, I think there's something here in our business that is a good fit for you. And we're going to pour in to help you be your very best. And in doing so, it's good for you. It's good for your teammates. It's good for the company. It's good for the service product, whatever. And I watch what you've done. You've had hit over hit after hit after hit. And there,

it's like the Midas touch. Like you, like what you've done is you found retained, developed talent in a very unique way that nobody else I know in your industry has even come close to doing. So I do want to hit on that. But just like you would imagine, I want to go back to when you were younger. Okay. And can you tell the story about when you were in your early teens and you came across one of your heroes yeah well i hope it doesn't bother steve martin just because he has to deal with people talking about

it but when i was a kid maybe it was 77 78 steve martin was on saturday night live and you know he was beyonce it's hard to even describe the level of fame and love people had for Steve Martin at that time. They have it now. Still, we're in this giant Steve Martin renaissance with his TV show. But back then, it really was white hot as a cultural phenomenon. We all were talking like him in school. And I was in California. my grandma lived in beverly hills and i knew where he lived it was this like solid cement block house didn't seem to have a

lot of windows from the street no gate and so whenever we went anywhere i was probably 12 this is 1980 i would say let's let's just drive past Steve Martin's house. So it literally didn't matter where we were going. Just let's take a path that forces us to go past his house. And then one day, I'm in the car with my grandma and my brother. There he is in the front of the house. I don't remember if he was washing a car or he was just doing something in front of his house. So I grabbed a piece of paper. Me and my brother jumped out. And I said, Mr. Martin, you know, can I have your autograph? And he said, no, I'm sorry.

I don't sign autographs at my house. And I said, well, will you sign it in the streets? Which I thought was a pretty good joke for 12. Yeah. And he's like, no no i really can't because then people will come all the time to my house a very reasonable reaction like if someone came to my house i would call the cops you know now i totally get like the nightmare of someone knowing where you live just as a security problem and i said please I live in New York. I won't tell anybody where you live.

I literally begged. And he's like, no, I'm so sorry. So I jumped back in the car. And I was like really like upset by it. And I got out a legal pad and I wrote him a letter. And I wrote, dear Steve, you're the funniest man in the world, but you treat your fans like garbage or something like that. And I said, I probably tried to explain what happened. And I said, you wouldn't live in that house if I didn't buy all your records and books and go to your movies. So if you don't send me an apology, I'm going to send your address to Homes of the Stars and you're going to have tour buses passing by 24 hours a day. You just got really dark at a 12-year-old. I'm threatening him.

And you don't remember exactly what the letter was. That's the only part of the letter I remember. So tonally, it must have been kind of funny also. It wasn't too dark looking back though you recognize that even even what you just said is like well how about in the street it was said in a funny way like you recognize that you were funny at 12 oh i so wanted to be funny at 12 i was already really into comedy and in the back of my head trying to figure out what I could do in comedy. Oh, look at that. So then I took the letter and I put it in his mailbox. No stamp.

How stalkery is that? Yeah, right. And then it was a long time later. It could have been as much as like four or five months. I got a book from him. He mailed it to me on Long Island I might have sent him my address on Long Island and I opened it up and it was his book Cruel Shoes which was these funny short stories that he wrote and he wrote in it to Judd I'm sorry I didn't realize I was speaking to the underlined Judd Apatow. And it's 1980.

So right now it's 45 years ago. And so how I look back at it is, one, I think it had a lot of impact because on some level I took from it that I made him laugh, that the letter made him laugh enough for him to send me the book that's right and then on another unconscious level just the the fact that he wrote the judd apatow must have done a number on me in what way because it's almost like your hero like your god saying you're okay and and so much of meeting a celebrity i was really into that as a kid. I was a real fanboy, was to touch that world. Can you penetrate that world?

Is there any way to get in it? And so when you first meet a few people, it's like, oh, these people are real. They're a human being. I'm a human being. They're doing something. Could I do the thing that they do? It's not like they're Bugs Bunny. It's just a guy in a house who's an actor writing

jokes and short stories and so you know i've you know gotten to know steve martin you know over the years a little bit and he's the nicest sweetest man and we did a funny photograph for vanity fair years ago where he is in a tour bus in front of my house harassing me. That is full circle. Great. When you were 12, this is now, I really appreciate how you're saying, look, this is kind of how I remember the letter. And, and I also appreciate that our memory is a tricky little thing.

Yeah. But I think the most important thing that I listened to here is that at 12, you had a little bit of a fire. Yeah. Oh, crazy. Right? And it was a fire to understand how your heroes worked, just to be close to them.

And it sounds like you wanted to be a comedian. It's hard to describe it as a little kid. Like, why are you attracted to something? That's right. Like comedy. Which is different than, say, being attracted to sports, right? So when you're little, people start playing sports sports and you instantly know where you fit in. So I was a year, I was basically younger than everyone.

I didn't understand it at the time, but I was a December kid. After kindergarten, they tried to make me take kindergarten again because I was so young. And my parents fought it. And I never realized it until a long time later. I was just like a really small kid for a while. So when sports began, I think I lost confidence very early. Like, oh, this is not my thing.

Because by the time testosterone dropped. Yeah, they defined you already. You had not, and theirs had. So you're not the athlete. They are. Even in the first, second, third grade, you could just feel. And maybe that wasn't going to be my thing in a big way anyway. Oh, it was even earlier than testosterone.

But you could just feel it. And I didn't know the age thing at the time. I just thought, oh, we're playing baseball. No one's letting me play first base. I'm in right field. Got it. And then after a while, you kind of don't learn how to do it because you're never given the good position. Finding Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Solutions. In any high-performing environment

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well accepted. Think about for, this is just for boys, a third, a third, a third. In a class that the ages were talking about, the top third of the athletes, they get on pretty good because there's a tension around who can kick the ball the furthest, kickball, whatever. The middle third, they're okay. they're still getting picked third or fourth yeah the bottom third it's really hard for boys who are in the bottom third athletically so confidence takes a hit self-esteem takes a hit belonging takes a hit it's a it's a struggle now yeah and were you there

oh yeah and the thing was it was a daily humiliation because it would happen in gym class and at lunch and then if you were doing anything after school so there'd be these like terrifying at least two times a day yeah you were lined up and there was no thought like this system is destroying people that's right and and then you just had a reputation like as being good or bad and then you were so terrified when the ball came to you because it was about changing the reputation if i catch this ball maybe next time they'll give me okay so you're on something really important which is when you're good at something young let's call it sport right now and you go do that thing

it's not the task that is at risk it's the identity that it's at risk and that's why our entire ecosystem lights up as if as if our life was on the line absolutely right that's why we sweat we get tremors we our breathing changes our heart pounds it's as if our life was on the line but all we're doing is walking up five steps as adults now, walking up five steps onto a platform to, you know, comedy or whatever, like on a stage. But it's the most threatening thing to most humans, the most feared thing to most humans because of the way it feels inside. So let's go back though. So you started to shape a bit of your identity and then it sounds like you were using humor to address it. Or did I just insert something that you weren't doing?

I mean, it's hard to know exactly what were the main motivators for it. Certainly a real motivation was there's something about this system in the school that feels unfair that I want to mock you know that the idea of who's popular who's not popular you still you still want to mock that now in your i mean not really as much but like as a you know as the guy that you know worked on freaks and geeks obviously was very much in me and paul feig's minds even as adults that as adults that there was this thing that shaped us and it affected what did girls think of you as a kid if you're like the terrible sports person you know there was like a hit at your masculinity as a result of that and you looked for your thing like okay

well this is not my thing what is my thing and on some level I was just fascinated by the entertainers on television but also at some point the idea that people like george carlin were saying that a lot of these systems are unfair and so these social critics were interesting to me i never knew that there was a person who had a whole album where he talked about how fucked up school is yeah and he talked about religion and he just made fun of the teachers and yeah um did you have a chance to know him i didn't i interviewed him once for canadian tv i never i did a documentary about him i the only thing i couldn't find was when i interviewed him when i was like 22 years old. But there was so so that was, I think, a real

motivation in addition to just loving it. I love the Marx Brothers and people like that. But when I look back, some of them were making fun of, you know, powerful people, rich people, the handsome people, all Marx Brothers movies is these three lunatics running around, you know, destroying the guys in the tuxedos. And so that must have been a thing for me. And then at some point I realized, maybe it's good that no one likes comedy but me because it's mine. That's right.

And, like, comedy is very popular now, but in 1975, there was no other kid to even talk about it with. There was no kid to say, do you want to talk about Monty Python with me or Saturday Night Live? Like no one cared at all. And I liked it and I thought, I have an escape pod. Like when high school ends, I'm going to get to the place where this happens and I will be prepared for it. I love this because you, I'm, the reason I wanted to go early years for you is because I wanted to understand some of the foundational bits. And, um, one, I didn't say comedians scare me is I don't know where you're going to go

for most humans. Um, and I, they scare me because it can turn on a dime, and you know the line, I know lines, you know lines, and you know when you're gonna cross one. And it's just, there's so much power in humor. It can sarcasm the root of Sakaar to rip flesh off of, so sarcasm can go quickly deep, right. And cut. And I don't have that feeling when I'm around you that like, you're going to all of a sudden go, well, slide into a bit to protect yourself, to be funny on command. But you don't, you, I don't feel like you use that to protect yourself. I see you as being open and vulnerable. Do i have that wrong or i mean probably that's probably have it wrong or no probably correct i mean i i probably don't do a lot of like nervous joking that's that's probably that's probably not my thing uh you know there are people just so funny

but they're just rambling and talking and you know you could tell like they need you to laugh that's right or they're very uncomfortable. They need to constantly get a cue that you like them. Because when you make someone laugh, the moment they're laughing, at least in that moment, you know they don't have a problem with you. That's right. Everything's OK. Yeah.

And that has never been my thing. Maybe because I also wasn't funny in that way in conversation. I wasn't like firing off and looking at everything and attacking things. It just wasn't the thing that I was good at. My thing was much more introspective. I could be funny here and there, but not that like, there are comedians and they're some of the best in the world,

but when you sit with them, it's intense. Like Robin Williams, I would imagine. Yeah, if he's in that mode. Sometimes he would just be very quiet. Did you have a chance to know him as well? Not much. But the times I was around him, he was very quiet and thoughtful and very sweet. But there are a lot of people, they just like ripping everybody apart.

And it is incredible and funny and fun sometimes. Yeah, right. Yeah, right. That's their move is whoever comes in is going to take a hit. Yeah, right. And maybe my thing is much of a protection to not do it as doing it. So, okay, the reason I was asking this is you are able to do something that most people would dream of being able to do in any field, like work with the best, but you have not only worked with them, you've helped nurture them.

And I don't want to put you into this thing of like, yeah, I found, fill in the name, Kevin Hart, or like, I don't know the details there, but certainly they point to you as being pivotal in their career. And I want, can I listen to... I can't stop you. I like to think of it as like an early supporter because I don't think anyone really, you don't really discover people. You just believe in them at an early stage and other people do too.

And you look for ways to help them get opportunities or make the best of opportunities. And every once in a while, the thing that you worked on together becomes a launch pad, but there's always a lot of people supporting, uh, anybody who's trying to break in and you're taking advantage of the support. Someone else gave somebody. I see.

You know? Okay. So that goes back to the watering hole idea a bit like four or five people recognize and let me list a few seth rogan james franco emma stone amy schumer jack black elizabeth banks chris o'dowd bill harter ben stiller adam scott amy adams jason sigel kevin i mean it goes on and on of folks that you've, you are at an early watering hole with them. And I don't know if that's a comedy club or people just introduce comedians to each other.

Casting. And a lot of times the casting director is the one who found them and you just agree. Okay, so you would say you're more on the side of recognizing a spark and then figuring out how to nurture that spark for whatever amount of time. Is that fair? Yeah. And sometimes like you don't have any intention beyond the part that you're

casting and, but it happens that they crush it and then other people recognize that they're great. And so I see, you didn't mean to really make somebody's career. You meant to make a scene work. That's right. And so you thought, wow, that person is really, really strong. And they'll help when they play the waiter in the scene. And then out of the blue, they do something that the audience says, I love this person.

And then suddenly someone else gives them a job. Or maybe you give them another job. Because it worked. Because it worked. And, but, you know, they did 50 other things before that. It just, you happen to step in at a moment that became pivotal for them. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentus.

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and when you're writing a scene for pick a person maybe you can tell a story here about how this actually works. But when you're writing a scene, are you trying to help them fit in to the scene? Or are you shaping the scene in a way that allows them to partner well with the scene? It really depends. A good example is the 40-year-old virgin, because there were a lot of parts and a lot of people who did amazing work. So we're about to have the 20th anniversary of the 40-year-old Virgin. So he'd be 60 right now. Yeah, right.

And so I just thought, well, I've got to fill this thing with everyone that I think is a home run funny person. And so, okay, he needs three friends. And I had just worked with Paul rudd who had done a lot of things he had done clueless he we just did anchorman yeah together but i thought oh this would be a really funny type of part for paul and romney malco and paul had made this independent movie that jesse pretz directed called theateau. And it was a little scene, independent movie, a little gem, but they had incredible chemistry. So I thought, oh, I'll just use both of them.

So I'm taking advantage of their work and what was established by Jesse by plugging them into my movie because I saw the chemistry in another movie. And Seth, we had worked together on Freaks and Geeks and Undeclared. And I always thought, I mean, Seth to me was like finding a star like John Candy or something. Like he was going to be like a unique type of comedy star. So we were always looking for opportunities. He had already written Superbad with his partner, Evan Goldberg. We couldn't get it made,

so we were trying to figure out. We couldn't get Superbad made? For years, no one got it, or they thought it was too dirty. And so Seth was working in these parts and different things that we were doing, and always scoring and being great. So it seemed natural, like, okay,

those are the three friends but it just happened that you know their work their improvisations was just beyond i like so i was watching the movie i hadn't i haven't watched it in 20 years but i had to watch it because they're going to put it out again and they wanted to fix the sound in the picture and the thing i noticed was just how focused and hungry and riotous everybody was what's the word like riotously funny like they you can just see it in their eyes how much they care how passionate they are how much they want it and they're just firing on all cylinders so you you see you know jane lynch is the boss we didn't write it like that she came in she improvised during her audition and we wrote

down everything that she said and tried to add to it and she created this really bizarre historically funny character so you know that's how those things happened she had just been in best in show and but she was so great that people really paid attention to it. And that happened with Elizabeth Banks, too. She had, like, a couple of scenes. And we just met her in casting. But what she did was so great. And it wasn't great because of us. I mean, you know, we did a good job writing and directing and all that.

But they brought something really special to it. So that's why it's always weird to go, oh, I, you know, I found this person because really it's not that you, you're, you go, I need there to be a woman that Seth, uh, that Steve Carell hits on and have an insanely funny exchange. And then you meet 40 people and you go, oh, I think this is the best one. Okay. So I, part of you, I get the humility. I do get the humility. Okay. I guess it's like if you're looking for players on your basketball team, it's the same thing.

Yeah. Like somebody that would sit in your chair and say, yeah, I made Michael Jordan. Yeah, let's talk about that. It doesn't work that way. He was special, period. But the way I hear you thinking about this is, let's call it like a systems thinker, is that you understand the most important variables for something to work, and then you're looking for chemistry. If there was already chemistry between two, you could borrow that chemistry, slide it in. Great. I need four other pieces.

I need a setting. So there's a system to how you think, but then, which is great. This is awesome. Then, so that's kind of, let's call that outside in. There's a system that you're working from, but then you're looking for a spark. You're looking for that thing that you said in the eyes or whatever. Maybe talk a little bit about how you recognize that because if you've got, I don bit about how you recognize that. Because if you've got, I don't know, 25 people that could fit and you're honing in on the one, you seem to be really good at honing in on the one. We don't know if the one you said no to would have been better, but you've got a track record. Like you know how to make this thing fit. So what are you sensing

when somebody comes in and does an interview, an audition? It's a harder thing to pin down because it's really just taste and the type of people that you enjoy watching that make you laugh. Certainly you want someone that's inspired and creative that also looks open to your ideas because it is an exchange. Anytime you're working with an actor they could really disagree with what you're asking them to do and then some people say all right i'll try your thing and other people like will fight you to not do your thing right so it's you have to feel like

this collaboration is going to work and i i'm usually the person that says let's do it my way and do it your way i never think like let's fight it out i always think, let's do it my way and do it your way. I never think like, let's fight it out. I always think, let's do a few my way and then see how your thing works. And then we'll figure it out in editing and we'll see what happens. So, you know, having time and having people feel encouraged that I care about their ideas. I'm not like, I saw it this way in my head and we're doing it that way four times and we're moving on. So that goes back to like that earlier question that you are trying to look for the pairing as opposed to you've got the vision.

Actor two, you've got to fit into it this way. So change your style. Okay. It's the opposite of that. I'm trying to see something in the people that I can adjust the whole thing to. That's right. And I'm open to the fact that they have something really special to contribute to it and that that's going to be the magic.

It's not like, oh, you nailed this thing that was in my head. So you're looking for the relationship, an agile, curious, an agile mindset, a curious mindset in the interview process between you and the person. And if that shows up in that setting, you're like, and there's a spark, you're like, oh, this is, of course, there's a, there's it, the relationship between you and the other person, agility, like at a curiosity and there's like there's this um malleability to use your language that you go oh that and spark this is a winner well the craig robinson came in to play the doorman and knocked up and so you know it's a

simple scene of leslie and katherine heigl going to a club and someone not letting them in, which is this really painful experience for people, especially when you get a little older and you realize, like, I might be too old to go to the club, but they're not going to let me in because I'm not 25 years old. So in a lot of ways, it's meant to be, like, funny and harsh, but also heartbreaking at the same time. So the idea was we want a doorman who's going to be so mean,

but at the end, he kind of admits that he feels bad that he's got to do it and Craig came in and you know it's just one of those moments where you go oh my god this is so funny so exactly right he's riffing oh when we get to the set I can't imagine what he'll do when we have a couple of hours to play and it's just going to be so much better and then you wind up rewriting it based on what he was doing in the audition and coming up with extra ideas so on the day you have all these other thoughts and then he's going to have his own thoughts and then in editing you you craft something out of everything that happened but there's no accounting for taste it's just these are the people that i

got a kick out of that i thought would work in our world you're calling it taste and i i totally hear it i i have a more nebulous term it's like the chemistry between you and the person but where you're if i drill one more i think it's this agile curious adaptable flexible approach to creating something that mindset is i think the thing that sits underneath for you um but again here i am trying to take you know something that's round and find the science underneath of it in a more linear well i think you're right in that there's uh you know you're creating space like shanley used to say like you're creating space for the magic to happen. So you work on the scene and you write the scene and you rehearse the scene, but then you don't want to hold it so tight that something else can't happen. And that's the,

you know, the moment that you never could have thought of in the writing. You know, just, it might be where somebody pauses, they might just think of a better line. And they know that if in the moment when we're shooting, they just happen to think of a different line and they know that if in the moment when we're shooting they just happen to think of a different line i'm happy for them to try it where other people might say why didn't you do the line i wrote that i polished i i'm always like if you if you want to go another way let's go let's see what happens and there were directors like robert altman who worked that way where it was very loose so i thought what if you took some of that approach to these types of comedies or dramedies? Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth.

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That seems kind of reasonable. Yeah. Am I off or? Yeah, more, a lot more. How many more? On a set? Yeah, just on a set. Yeah, maybe 50, 60 people.

Okay. And then you've got four people and you're there and like, okay, in front of the camera, four people in front of the camera. And you've got four people and you're there and like, okay, in front of the camera, four people in front of the camera. And they've got this genius spark. And it didn't work. Yeah. How do you handle that?

And that's like part of it is that like you're creating a world where no one feels bad when that happens. The other three aren't like, I got to do my lines again. I barely got through that. I mean, there's certainly times where you hire someone that like their success rate is low. Like I was talking to a friend of mine who like I was saying to him, I go, you know, you know, your success rate was like two out of 10. But it was worth sitting through the eight to get to it because the two were incredible. You are really you have a generous.

There's a generous tolerance for mistake making. Yeah, because you have to. But in those days, we would have enough time. Because it's really time. You have the budget. A lot of your budget for a movie pays for days. So you could shoot a movie in 15 days. You could shoot a movie in 70 days.

That's how you budget it? You're like, oh, OK, that million dollars will get us x number yeah so yeah so if you don't have enough time then you're a little more tense when someone's riffing is not working because you're like we got two hours to shoot the scene but if you got four hours to shoot the scene then everyone can relax and explore. And so a lot of my job on the producing side is, can I set up this situation where we're all calm, feel supported, we're allowed to make mistakes, we're allowed to be wildly experimental, and no one is scared that they're going to get in trouble for wasting that time. If I could take that out of people's heads, like a lot of times with actors, they don't know how many takes they're going to get.

Right. Cause you might go, Oh, Clint Eastwood wants to do two and you're terrified. Cause you know, he's going to move on and go, okay, we got it.

And what if in your head, you're like, I didn't do it well yet. Right. I was left behind. Like he looked good. Yeah. Right.

So I'll say to the actors, is that how Clint Eastwood works? Oh yeah. He wants it like that immediacy. And where I'll say to the actors, I'm not going to move on until you tell me you think you got it. So all four, if there's a scene. Yeah.

All four look and be like, yeah, work for me. I'll just be like, are you guys ready? Can we move on? I think I have it. Do you think we have it? And someone might go, let me do one more. There was a thing I wanted to try. And then when you notice one of the other folks go,

that's in front of the camera goes, oh. There's not that much of that because I think everyone likes acting. I'm not one of those people who's doing like 35 takes where everyone's exhausted. We're probably in the world of like four to seven runs of things. So, yeah, we rarely have that, like I want to go home vibe. People are pretty happy that they're getting to do the thing they love to do.

How would you describe your leadership? I lead, how do you fill in the rest of that? My leadership is? I try to be very aware of what it's like for them. Would you call it empathy? Absolutely. I'm definitely thinking, are they uncomfortable? You know, what do they bring to the scene?

What do they bring to the scene that we can use? Yeah. But I also try to talk to people like months before we shoot. I try to rehearse months before we shoot. So when we get to the set, we've kind of had the talks already. We've done a table read, maybe the talks already. We've done a table read, maybe three table reads. We've done rehearsals. We've just sat down and said, do you like the scene? Do you think the scene's working? We've improvised in rehearsal. So when

we hit the set, we really know it. And no one has a secret anger about the scene. Because sometimes if you don't rehearse and you don't table read, you get to the day. And now you read the scene because sometimes if you don't rehearse and you don't table read you get to the day and now you're you read the scene out loud and an actor will just go i don't think this scene works and you're like uh-oh and then it's like wait so now i have to decide if i want to fight you and tell you like you should have told me that a month ago you have to say the words yeah like you're setting yourself up for confrontation. Where if you ask them, even if it's like two weeks before the shoot starts,

then you just say, do you have any notes you wanna tell me? Because when we get to the set, we gotta go. So now's your moment. So I try to anticipate, and some of this is, my wife Leslie has done a lot of movies, I've seen the way she's worked.

I've seen what helps her do her work. I've seen the mistakes people make when they run sets so that I understand what the actors need to do a good job because it's so vulnerable, and people are very dismissive of how hard acting is. It's really scary. You have to keep this kind of focus and energy for 10 12 14 hours everyone kind of thinks you're spoiled so they don't want to give you a break when the thing

you're doing is so difficult and and there's always a part of you that thinks i hope this isn't going to humiliate me in six months when it comes out yeah so it's it's loaded everyone has an ego everyone wants the movie to be good yeah and if it isn't good it actually is really embarrassing that's right so you have that energy too okay so you are relational yeah you are building a relationship based approach to filmmaking and in doing so it sounds like that is how you manage, quote unquote, the egos. Because there's some massive egos on that list. I don't know any of them. You have to be confident to even think you could be worthy of the world watching you be the lead of a movie. Well, hold on. Let's do two things. Confident and ego, just for fun. So when I say there's egos,

I'm setting that up as almost a chest thumping, like, don't you know who I am? Okay. So I'm not saying that aspirationally. I'm saying, but you added confidence, which is like, no, it's this private little conversation we have with ourselves to say yeah i think i can do this thing yeah right i don't know yeah but i think i can that looks hard that looks great that looks amazing like i think i can get this thing done arrogance is like i got it well and like for me personally i never had that ego that thought i should be the center of attention. You never personally had that. I didn't have enough of it to think, oh, I should be the lead of the movie.

I'm fascinating. I'm interesting. I should be a star. Whatever my insecurity was or my accurate look at my own level of charisma, I didn't have that swagger where I thought it's about me in that way. And it is a very specific thing to understand about yourself. Like, you know, I lived with Adam Sandler. He knew... You did live together for a while, right?

Like after college. Yeah. In a very healthy way. But he just knew he was good at this. And he knew that people would want to watch him and not in an egomaniacal way that was off-putting or weird or coming from some terrible wound to prove something he just had this sense that this is what he does the way a singer might just go i i'm good at this and i have something to say and people want to watch me and that's okay and it's not kind of screwed up and there are people who are who come at it from a kind of a broken scary ego place yeah also and some people are like that for a period and they grow out of it because it takes a lot to like go all right put me in the center i should be number one on the

call sheet yeah and those are special people, but sometimes they're interesting because they've been through some stuff or they're traumatized or they're super sensitive and they're avatars for all of our emotions, but they didn't get there easily. Stuff happened to them. I just even love the way that you're framing,

I don't know, narcissism. Yeah. Not narcissistic personality disorder, but the narcissistic characteristic of like, no, I should be the one that the lights are on. You know, you're like, look, they're really interesting. They're different in a lot of ways. And let's just embrace that. And thank them for it, because even if they misbehave, they're giving us something kind of incredible.

And it might be really hard for them, like their whole life struggle to be this person. I'm trying to think like a musical version of it. Say it's like Keith Richards. Like you're so happy the Stones exist and all this music exists, but he went through hell and he had drug problems and whatever he was going through as a person, he paid this price to give it to you. So you could say like, oh, I have this criticism of this or that,

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I'd love to do that too. Like, who does he think he is? You're going, wait, hold on. That's a complicated way to live. And he's providing me this incredible gift because I'm nodding my head. I'm getting goosebumps. I'm singing lyrics that I never would have had. And I'm talking and sharing that with people that I love doing it with. What a gift. And so therein lies your relational mindset, your relational approach, your empathy. And it sounds like you set that up as a foundation. Then you get to practice. And in the practice, there's still some of the relational forming stuff and your work coach carol who i

you know i spent a long a long time with uh head coach of the sales seahawks and now head coach of the raiders um he would he would always say practice makes us and so then you would go do the table reads and whatever and that's where you're working out like the nuances and the details and the final kind of stuff and then the lights come on it sounds like you're seven eighths of the way there does that seem right yeah well it's like i was watching something about dennis rodman recently on youtube and they were just talking about how they had to change all the rules for him because he just he couldn't do it in the traditional way and so someone had to not the rules in the nba but the rules of practice the rules of practice and and when he would show up versus when everyone else would

show up right and so there's the there's rules just for dennis that's right dennis can go to vegas in the middle of the of the i don't was at the playoffs and he's right and the coach has to explain to the team why I'm doing that. And that's very similar to the movie set. If there's somebody who is eccentric or has their own process. The green M&M story. So the coach has to somehow explain to the team why we're letting Dennis do this and get them to still follow the rules while he lets dennis not follow

the rules and that's where like the war can happen on the team so the incredible coaching feat is they all became okay enough with it and then it led to them winning but like someone was talking about you know they didn't really talk to him outside of like playing. Like they had no relationship with him whatsoever outside of the game. But they respected that after the game, he would get on a stationary bike and ride the bike for an hour. And they could see how much he cared, but his process was going to be different. And that's the same for an actor who's a pain in the ass. You have to decide, is it worth it?

Like when we did the Larry Sanders show, you know, Gary was very neurotic and very frustrated because it was an exhausting job. And he always felt like people weren't looking out for him or coming through with what they were supposed to do, whether it was the writing or how the production was set up. And we would sit in the writer writers room and we would debate, is it worth it? And we would say... To work with Gary. To work with Gary. Is it... is it... would you rather work with someone mediocre who's really easy and kind and fun to deal with or would you rather work with a genius that's a pain

in the ass? And I was always like, I would rather work with a genius. But there weren't writers that said, I'd rather work with the easy person. What about a genius who's a pain in the ass that's a bit of a jerk? I think it's the same thing. I mean, there are those people where you just... And people are jerks. They're not jerks wall to wall. They're jerks in certain stressful moments where they don't handle it the way you wish that they would

where they snap on someone or they maybe they shame someone for doing something wrong because they're so scared that the work's going to be shitty that they lash out because they're which is always what it is it's always if this doesn't come out well it's going to humiliate me or hurt my career, and I'm just going to look bad. I'm very exposed. And that can lead to rage in the moment where you're like, I don't think this is going well. And so for some people, it's really hard to hide

that they've been activated, that they're triggered by, oh, my God, this scene sucks. No one's fixing it i'm exposed and i'm exposed so now i want to kill you well i'll find somebody to blame to express my my fear in that moment and you know a good coach can go all right what can we do to calm this moment down and fix it? How much time do we have? How, you know, I used to try to take Gary into a room alone because I always knew he could fix it.

Like if he had quiet and time, like we could deal with the staff for two hours and try to figure out what we think Gary wants. Or I can go, Gary, if you go in a room with me right now for 15 minutes, I bet you we could figure it out. And it would always be he would figure it out. And then I was like, you know, and when we go in that room for 15 minutes, you know what? It's kind of fun.

Like it's not a painful 15 minutes or hour. And so like, let's, so I just, I would try to be like the happy one, you know, getting him in the mood to fix it. Like, well, this is what we're here for. We're making a TV show. Let's figure it out so that he can lose that triggered reaction. Did the world know that about Gary Shandling?

Well, I think the world didn't really know. I mean, we did the documentary about Gary where we talked about a lot of this. But Gary was talking about a lot of it on the Larry Sanders show. It was about a neurotic talk show host melting down all the time. And Gary, like if Gary had a problem, he would then write it into the show.

If he misbehaved, he thought it was funny to show how his character would misbehave. Or he would observe the writers and maybe he would write the fake writers on the show based on the real writers behavior and that's how he healed himself was to be really hard on himself and turn it into art two two things that are coming forward um i think you're a coach leadership i doesn't the word leadership has this baggage about like centralized control and command and

i see the vision follow me i see you as like this extraordinary coach of dormant or this dormant potential that is right that we know it's there it's right on the surface how do you create the conditions around and inside a person to bring it forward and to have the space to be able to take the risks to make the magic, quote unquote, take place or experienced. Do you see yourself as a coach? Yeah, I mean, and I definitely thought about that. I remember there was one year on this TV show, Undeclared, I was reading a lot about John Wooden.

And he had one simple philosophy was, whoever the best person on the court is, give them the ball. And when you have a writing staff, some people are clearly better than other people. So if you hire eight people, a lot of times two or three people are writing the whole show. And most people know that in the room. Yeah.

And there's a sense of, oh, that person writes great drafts. Some people are funny in a room when you're punching up a script and you're all like throwing out lines that could beat lines in the script. And there's some people that can go in their office and bang out a script. And it comes out. It's like, wow. And, yeah, and you're like, oh, whatever. Like George Meyer on The Simpsons.

There were people like that. John Schwartzwald. They're legends. John Vitti for being able to just write the whole script. And I remember thinking that year, whoever's funniest, I'm gonna give them more scripts. I'm not gonna do this game of making everyone feel good and everyone in the show gets the same amount.

And there were people that were clearly doing better. I got to sit with John Wooden. And it was this small room of about, I think it was like six to eight folks. I felt like I was the only person in the room. But it was this really small, it was like three or four hours of him sharing philosophy and getting into it. It was amazing. One of the things, and I don't know if he said it in that room or, um, or if it was just something that I read that he had said, but the idea was, um, we want to treat each person equally different. And that goes back to the Rodman story, the Gary Shandling story, you know, like we're going to treat them. And then it's the,

your job to your point, to be able to shape that narrative. So everyone understands and doesn't scoff or minimize or antagonize the person like what the green M&Ms for you, who do you think you are? Or the murmur behind the scenes of like, Oh God, here we go again. Green, green M&Ms. I don't know where green M&Ms came from, but that idea. And then the second thing I think is really powerful is he said, which I'd love for you to react to john wooden said this something to this effect and it's that i wish my friends a championship i wish all of my friends a championship um and i wish the worst of my enemies or the best of my enemies some some sort of framing their back-to-back championships and so

that's not the exact quote but the spirit of it is that. When you hear that insight, where do you go? I try to look at each project as if none of the other projects exist. I knew you were going to say that. Yeah. Because that's great. The funny thing about making movies or TV or entertainment and in all respects is having succeeded the last time does not do anything for you this time. Show me what you've done lately. It doesn't apply. Like, it's a different concept.

It's different people. But there's air cover. Like, how many hits have you done? I'm not sure. But let's say 10. Come on. Well, I mean, it's also their projects that didn't make money that people like better than the ones that did make money and so okay but like for me i would say you know i'm

happy with everything that i've done to a certain respect right i like them all i think some are better than others there's nothing that i'm humiliated by you know that's what i how i judge it if i'm home and i'm going through the channels, if I see a movie, do I go, oh no, someone's watching that. Yeah. I don't really have those. I mean, there's some where I'm like, well, that's not the best time, but I feel like a noble effort was attempted on, on all of them. But the idea you know the stress for the next one i feel the same stress from today as i did day one that's cool okay and sometimes i think it's unhealthy you know the part of you that is like oh don't fuck it up don't fuck it up because i think a lot of that energy slows down your creativity oh it certainly would corrupt it yeah and it's really a tough

voice to make friends with that there's a you know i had a therapist once you know who said you know your fight or flight response basically wants you to just stay in bed all day and do nothing because then you're safe you're safe and you won't die and And so you're always pushing against this thought like, maybe I should just stop now. And if I start again, it could be painful and ugly. And then at some point you're like, nah, it's fun enough. And I'm interested enough to do it. But I do think about that at this stage.

Why am I making the movie? Do I have anything to say? Am I doing it just to hold on to my position? Or am I passionate about this thing? And I think I don't really start things unless I feel like I'm as passionate about each project as I was all the others. I won't work just to work. And I won't work just because it feels like it would help me in some way. It really has to be like was all the others. I won't work just to work and I won't work just because it feels like it would help me in some way. It really has to be like, I love the idea. And sometimes I

love the idea and I know the world won't love it as much as me and I'll do it anyway. Yeah. There's a, go back, you introduced a word about the noble approach and I hear that in what you're describing. And I'd love to drill in to that space between, um, also you're really thoughtful, Judd. Like there's a lot of work you've done on yourself to bring up eloquently the parts of you that are hard to talk about. Like, well, I don't want to lose my position. You said it casually as a cool statement. That's a rich insight. So let's open that one up. I don't want to lose my position because you're, you're at the high table and there's, there's young, you know, whippersnappers that are coming up and maybe they're funnier. They're more tuned. They're da da da. They'll work harder. You know, I don't know.

I'm making up a narrative, but the point is like, I don't want to lose my position. Let's call that a not ideal thought, but it's a thought. And then how do you work with that thought to have something that is more productive for you or that serves you better? And I'm asking you to go right in between like when you are aware of the thought and how do you uniquely move with that thought? Not enough people will talk about this because I think it's so invisible that it's hard to put words to, but I feel like you've done so much work, you might just be able to do it.

Well, when I first started, I did a lot of things that I thought were good, but they didn't succeed. So Freaks and Geeks was canceled in the middle of the season. Ben Stiller Show was canceled in the middle of the season. Undec geeks was canceled in the middle of the season ben stiller show was canceled in the middle of the season undeclared was canceled in the middle of the season um you know the cable guy which was supposed to be this like giant juggernaut people like saw it as uh certainly an economic failure and a lot of people were thrown by

you know how weird it was at the time. It grew in reputation over the years. So I kept having these experiences where I loved the project, but it wasn't getting commercial success. It wasn't crossing over. And then when Freaks and Geeks got canceled, I was so devastated I had to have spinal surgery because I had a bad disc. Legitimately.

Yeah, I literally was so stressed that I popped a disc. I had a herniated disc. This is a real thing. But I was so proud of what Paul and Jake and I and everybody had done that in my head I played a trick on myself for a long time. And the trick was I'd always dreamed of doing something well. And I thought, and this was just for myself, I wouldn't say it to anyone.

I thought, I think Freaks and Geeks is almost perfect. And I did it once. And I don't mean to equate it, but this is just part of like the motivating yourself. I was like, that was like our Sergeant Pepper. Like it happened. Like we like the motivating yourself. I was like, that was like our Sergeant Pepper. Like it happened. Like we won the Super Bowl. Even though it was canceled,

even though, you know, at a lot of levels that there was like a disaster to it, I thought creatively. You knew. Yeah, I knew that at least once in my life, something came out exactly as I wanted and it was special. And it was everybody's work, not just my work, but we just, we did it.

And so I would think after that, every single thing I do in my career is extra. Like that, like it was all post-career from Freaks and Geeks. So I can experiment and I can take chances because the main mountain I wanted to climb, I had already climbed. And so now I could be daring and it didn't matter if it all failed the rest of my life. I had done it correctly once.

And that worked up until about two or three years ago. My mind didn't allow me that thought anymore for some reason, it just ran out. But it really did work for a long time because it gave me some level of confidence and the ability to let go of my terror of failure. Yeah. So you know what you're saying is that you had a foundational idea. You had a principle, which any human can make up these principles. And you had one that worked for you, which is like, I won the Super Bowl. I got the gold medal. So now I can play. And we can invent. So like Carl Jung, one of the founders in psychoanalysis and psychology said to some effect, like the

experience out there happens, but the way you frame the experience is actually material to you. So you and I are witnessing a car crash and you go, you say something like, oh, I'm going to run help like that. And I go, oh my God, I'm terrified. It's what you make of the experience that is the power that you hold. And if you don't invest in the meaning making process, I feel like most of us get caught by like, well, what is this? And like, how do I do? You actually get to choose, which sounds manipulative and what it's not. It's like, it comes from your first principles. So your first principle was like, first ambition first was like, I want to make a Superbowl. First principle was like, this feels like a Superbowl. Oh, now I get to play. You made

all that up. Yeah. Nobody gave that to you. So the way that you would work with quote unquote prickly, difficult thoughts is that you would anchor it into a first principle. Like, wait, hold on. Right? Like, this is my play phase. Yeah. And then it no longer worked for you. And then it stopped working.

Yeah, right. Okay, good. Well, it's also I feel like a different phase. And then maybe like COVID was, you know, a dividing line in some ways. I did The King of Staten Island with Pete Davidson, and I was really, really happy creatively with how we all worked together and the final product. What is it like to work with him?

With Pete? I mean, we had to be very sensitive to the subject matter because he lost his dad, Scott, who was a firefighter on 9-11 and it took me you know a long time knowing pete before even broaching the subject would you ever want to explore that creatively is there a story there and so me and pete and dave cyrus wrote something that we know it wasn't true it was a made-up story but based on his feelings and how he was relating to a lot of it and he was really brave and hilarious and you know he would just offer up all these moments and thoughts and never ever said you

can't do that or that cuts too close to the bone, or I'd be embarrassed if we did that. I mean, probably as courageous in the work as anybody. Yeah, very cool. I never dealt with, but I certainly was aware that making the whole movie was potentially a traumatizing event for Pete, because in some ways he's reliving aspects of it

in the acting. And maybe incredibly healing. Yeah, and hopefully it was that he got to put it out there and really think it through deeply for years how he felt about it how it led to how he related to people and his family and relationships so hopefully he got a lot of that and i'm proud of the fact that he loves the movie that you know we we did this thing that was you know frightening in a lot of that and I'm proud of the fact that he loves the movie that you know we we did this thing that was you know frightening in a lot of ways frightening for me because I didn't want to hurt Pete and I wanted it to be something that would you know both creatively be helpful but I was aware

that this could be a healing experience and I didn't want to be like we're using Pete to make a movie I wanted to write about the sacrifice of his dad and people like his dad who you know are willing to lose their lives to protect other people and you know the the spark of it was i realized one day but a major subject i had never written about was uh people who are giving because a lot of you, like coming of age movies, like you're just trying to get laid or you're trying to grow up or you're trying to get a girl. And it's all very about yourself. And I thought, what is the opposite of that? Oh, it's sacrifice. It's the, you know, the people, you know, the nurses during COVID. And so I was happy that,

you know, Pete was up for exploring it. But I remember I sat with my therapist right before the shoot started. And I said, I really don't want to hurt Pete in this production. And we're doing scenes where he'ser's put out a fire like there's some rough moments where he has to talk about things that are very very intimate and my therapist said to me you know here's the thing uh p-sad was a hero and a lot of times heroes don't survive and they leave behind wreckage and you can't solve that that's just what it is and he said but the world needs heroes we can't survive without these people so there's so there's no way to like make it okay for pete uh and i took that dialogue that he said i put it in the movie and and I had Steve Buscemi say it to Pete.

And that's what's the funny thing about creativity. It's like my therapist was the person who said the thing that kind of turns, you know, the movie, which is basically, yeah, your dad, that was terrible, and it just is terrible. But he's that guy. He's the guy that runs in the building.

And even though it seems unfair, and it hurts is terrible. But he's that guy. He's the guy that runs in the building. And even though it seems unfair and it hurts so much, the world can't survive without him. Thank you for sharing that. It's another dimension to understand how seriously you take the work and how committed you are to the relationships of the work. When you were reliving that just now, what was that like for you?

Oh, I could just cry. I mean you know a lot of reasons you know and being around the firefighters who were friends with pete's dad like meeting all of them and seeing how like it's like it happened a month ago yeah that's the thing i noticed in the making of the movie like it's you know it's it's uh 2001 and it's really fresh yeah and and all these people they lost a lot of friends you know like the people who were a part of it you know they'll say oh i lost like 50 friends uh and you know it's very current each time that we lose somebody um we're also grieving the losses that happened before. And so it's like this compounding.

It's like a shampoo effect. You wash your hair once and it kind of is lathered and you wash it again, it like really lathers. And so there's a little residue that kind of stays in the grief process for most people. In comedy, you lose people. It seems like there's a lot of mental health issues in comedy. Before I go any further, is that a fair statement? Yeah, I don't know if,

I don't know what the percentages are in insurance or other businesses, right? So it's always hard to tell. But certainly it's a business that draws, this is another thing my therapist said to me. It's a business that draws creative, sensitive people. So if you're really sensitive, like you really feel the world, then for a lot of people that leads to creativity.

And the people that are that sensitive tend to get pulled into the business and it is a business that is vicious and it's really hard so you have the most sensitive people in one of the most vicious businesses and that's why people wind up having a hard time or being depressed or being on drugs or you lose people because the dynamic is set up for big problems sometimes who have you lost that you're still working through the grief process um well certainly gary you know which isn't you know you know he he just got sick uh but that's a rough one you know because you know when you look back and you think about how someone really took care of you and mentored you and and you do you do the math of uh wow he gave me my first job on a show you know that was storytelling as i came from sketch oh he was the first person to ask me to direct he's the first person that asked me to

write for an award show he read all my scripts he watched all my cuts as a friend and it's just on and on and on and when he died i went through all my emails with him wow and i just was reading all the emails just so depressed just crying at my table and i would like ask him for things and every single time was yes and he wasn't a guy that did that for a lot of people i mean there were certainly other people that he was mentoring and he was really good to and he wasn't a guy that did that for a lot of people i mean there were certainly other people that he was mentoring and he was really good to but he wasn't someone who wanted to leave the house and go to things you know if you said hey do you want to come uh you know do this panel with me do you want to go to will you perform at this benefit for me every single time for years was a yes. What do you think it is about you that contributed to that yes making?

I think, I mean, I met him when I was really young. And, you know, he was dating Linda Doucette then. And they were so nice to me. I'd go to their house and watch TV and, you know, go to comedy shows with gary and help them out and and later i thought like it was almost like they were practicing being parents or something like i felt later on like why do they want me around yeah and i don't think consciously right it was like the two of them and this weird 21, 20-year-old man watching TV together, going out to eat.

And he spent a lot of time with me. Yeah, right. And, you know, we did some work together, but also just like hung out as friends a lot. And there certainly was something very parental or brotherly about it that I explored in the documentary, which was, you know, I'm not sure exactly what he was longing for, but we did speak the same language without just, you know, you know, without breaking it down. Like we just instantly were like from the same world. I mean, he's from Arizona.

I'm from Long Island, but I, and I, and I also probably because my mom was a real character and probably had some mental health stuff that no one ever knew how to define. I always had a lot of compassion for Gary. You did or he did? I did. Well, he did also. I see. You know, narcissistic moms who are erratic and, you know, both kind of smothering and kind of raging at times.

And so I think there was something that we were both we were wired similarly that's cool and so there's a safety in that yeah yeah we understood each other and i had a lot of compassion when he uh about his suffering or his neuroses i i guess on some level i thought of course he feels that way like wasn't mad at him about it ever because i just was like i kind of feel that way and i looked at him as someone that i could learn from not just like if he was teaching me about buddhism or comedy but also what not to do i paid attention to like his suffering and thought oh look look what he's doing look look how much energy he's putting into being upset about this. How do I not be upset by it?

But I remember he gave me a book when I first got to know him. And I didn't grow up religious at all, like nothing. Nothing was mentioned. It's not that we didn't go to temple. We didn't discuss that there was a temple. It was just nothing. And so he gave me this book called like A Feather on a Fan, some Buddhist book. And then he gave me this other book. And he's like, I just think you'd like this. And it was called Turning Problems into Happiness. And the premise of the book is

just a simple Buddhist idea that anytime something bad happens, you should be happy because it's giving you an opportunity to work on something. And so it's a gift. And that, as a young person, was a life changer. Completely changed my entire life. That's one thought. But I thought about it while watching Gary, like, oh, Gary's struggling with that. Yeah, that's why I gave it.

That's why I was reading it, why I gave it as a gift. We often give what we have or give what we wish we had. Yes. give it as a gift we often give what we have or give what we wish we had yes and i felt like he was trying to prove on some level that you could treat someone well you know and he did that with you yeah like like he wasn't happy with how he was treated like by his mom oh that just hit you didn't it yeah yeah yeah that that when i like, oh, it was almost like you can treat someone great. It's not impossible. I'm not crazy for thinking like my mom should have been better to me. It can't be.

Because I'm doing it to this person that's like, it's like a parental situation. And I'm like parenting him well. And I also don't think any of it's conscious. But you're really safe. Yeah, it's conscious but you're really safe um yeah in some really safe yeah no you're i'm not gonna like attack gary yeah yeah well no you're just really safe you care yeah um i was appreciative i knew it was special like in a way it was my dream right as like a little kid like so one of the best geniuses of comedy of all time for some reason is being kind and mentoring me i didn't take it for

granted for a second that this was like a miracle right how are you keeping the emotions right at the surface and not letting them right now run the whole show like you're with your emotions right now um am i not just bawling well yeah well yes and no i mean there's of course a um a really it's because you said you're just using mainly the audio so So I could ball on audio. No, but what I'm watching is skill. Okay, and the skill is being able to work with emotions, but not emotions run wild and over the experience. And there's times and place that we need to do that,

like for whatever, but you're with your emotion right now. And you're, I don't feel like you're saying, don't look at my emotions. Don't feel, you're like, no, they're here. So how are you that,

by the way, I'm just, I'll say it again. This is what skill is. Yeah. That, that you can work with something. Well,

um, that may be like the best question I've ever been asked that I, I haven't really thought about it completely, but I think you know I've gone to therapy for so long and then this past year I did ayahuasca and had like a really profound experience and I kind of thought I was stuck like and And the only reason why I did it was like, oh, I'd like to blow out my carburetor a little bit. I was reading my journals from the 90s,

and I'm like, it's the same as yesterday. Like what I'm complaining about, where I think I'm stuck. And so I was a little more open, had some friends who had done it with someone that they trusted. And I mean, it all sounds kind of like ridiculous, but it is very meaningful and impactful. It was at the end of this long ayahuasca journey, ceremony, which by the way, I don't tell anyone to do

because it's so crazy and who knows how it affects anybody else. So I'm not saying do it. But at the very very very end of it um and this will make it i tell this story on stage because it's funny uh but the the woman shaman is like it's time to purge which means you're going to throw up but it also means just like throw up like your trauma and your pain and the ways you're stuck. And so it's time to do that. And I didn't kind of like eat for the day or day and a half.

So I had like nothing in me. So I'm just like dry heaving. Then she says like, do you want me to purge for you? I'll purge for you. And she takes the bucket and like it's like a monty python sketch how much is coming out of her wow how much liquid is leaving her body and then in the middle of it i thought i should look her in the eye because she's doing this for me like she's she's purging up my pain or my troubles. And so like I try to like look her in the eye and like thank her for doing it.

And then it's kind of over and I'm like exhausted from it. And then like I see Jesus Christ on the cross. Now I'm Jewish. So that's not like in my lexicon of things that come up for me, right? And so I see Jesus on the cross. Now, I'm Jewish, so that's not in my lexicon of things that come up for me. And so I see Jesus on the cross, and in my head, I think, oh, that's what life is all about, sacrifice. It's about being there for other people, and she's there for me. And I think that's what the whole metaphor of it,

whether you think it's literal or not, it just means I did this for you, could you do this for someone else? Like it became really clear, like this is the essence of life. Yeah, amazing. Is that. Oh, so what a rich experience and the way that you just wove two parts together,

which is like you're really practiced at working with your emotions. I went to therapy for a long time as a statement. And then your craft also sits with emotions. And so you're sensitive to emotions. You know where the surface and where the cup is full, and it spills over. You know that. I have great regard for watching what you've just done.

And then for you to tie it into this ayahuasca experience to say, look, I think it's really about being in service and understanding suffering and taking it and the sacrifice for other people as well. I felt it myself. I've allowed emotions to be part of that experience. And then I'm not afraid and I want to be a beacon for other people in that way. Very cool, Judd. Very cool. And then it's, you know, so when you bring up the other things on some level in terms

of just feeling your emotions, part of the ayahuasca experience for me was, can you let go? Can you stop trying to control everything and make everything right or judge yourself or worry about what other people are thinking? You know, like your book about like always worrying about where am I, what are people making of me? Like, can I like drop all that? And in the moment of service

or in the moment of like caring about other people, you naturally aren't doing that. And you can still- That's why it's a best practice in psychology. Yeah. For any type of struggle that someone is having, one of the best practices according to science is to be in service of another person. And the work is better if you think, I'm trying to make something to touch somebody or give

them a laugh or a good experience as opposed to like, oh, this helps my career. That's right. Yeah. And obviously you always do have a part of that and you have, you know, you have concern for how it's going and you have a business mind, but if you can kind of have a good solid piece, that's like,

I hope someone sees this and it helps them in some way. And even in the dumbest way, like a lot of, a lot of times during COVID, I would hear from people watching some ridiculous movie we made and and you think oh that's why we made it because there's someone in their house and they haven't been able to leave in three months and like we've got them through the night as they watch a stupid movie that we made 15 years ago and you then you're really proud of it like Like, oh, it wasn't just that.

Like you put something out in the universe that, you know, was meaningful to people. And, you know, there were people say that, oh, I watched that movie 20 times during COVID. And you can't even believe, but they did. You know, like that was their comfort thing. You know, I've had those things where like you'll watch the same thing or listen to the same album over and over again.

How do you, how has your idea of mastery changed over your career arc? I think probably when I was young, I was very hungry to do a good job and to learn. I was always very aware, like, you don't know anything. Be in learning mode. And I had that written on my desk. I wrote on my desk, you suck and always be learning. I just wanted to remind myself that there was a long way to go.

I like the second phrase. But even just like comedically, I also wrote down, in order to have good ideas, you have to have a lot of ideas. Yeah, I get that too. And so to always be in a place of I could be better at this. As soon as I think I'm good at this, I'm in trouble. That there's a way to do it better. And as I've gotten older, I think the tricky part is you wind up having made a lot of things that are from your life experience.

You kind of run out of life experience, and you run out of stories, things that have happened to you. And when things happen to you, you're so excited that you can turn it into something. And then you have to go a little deeper to find the things that you want to say. And you also have to accept that maybe I told a lot of my best stories and that's fine as an artist you know we're comfortable that you know there's the beatles and there's all the

work that they all did after the beatles and you know there is a certain lifespan of your creative life and so i've had to let go of like boom, and like things coming out like every year and you're all over everything to something that's a little more like Bob Dylan where like he puts some stuff out here and there and every once in a while he encorks something great. You don't see it coming at all. Like, hey, did you hear Bob Dylan

actually put out a good new record? And to take that pressure of pace and level out of it, you know, to just go, it's okay. You could look at it like, not like your best work is behind you, but that like the moment is behind you. You know, like there's Led Zeppelin. And then, you know, Robert Plant makes a great album with Alison Krauss. And for some people, it's better than the Led Zeppelin. And then, you know, Robert Plant makes a great album with Alison Krauss. And for some people, it's better than the Led Zeppelin stuff. But like the expectation of the giantness of it,

you don't want in it at all. You just want pure expression at a certain point. Mastery of craft, mastery of self. I'm far more interested in mastery of self through craft. So the laboratory is the mastery of craft, but to really understand mastery of self. And I'm watching you and I'm like, yep, like you're confirming the way that I,

the model that I'm fascinated by. So you are not just cranking out hits over the last, is it 20 years? I don't know the years. And then saying, boy, I can't wait to get the next one. Notch on the belt, mastery of craft, period. But that's never going to be satisfying. It feels like an empty meal. So you have done what I hope that my life is about, mastery of self through craft. And so thank you, Judd, for this sobering honesty in how you shaped your life and how you think and how you relate to your craft, more importantly, how you relate to your craft. More importantly, how you

relate to yourself and others. That is the magic here for me. And I would love, I'm not an actor, but if I were, I would love to work with you. I bet you create the space for people to bring their very best forward. And I hope that in my life with my loved ones and the folks I work with that they say that to me, but I think I'm afraid what they'll say is you actually, Mike, yeah, it's great, but sometimes you're a little too, you got a little too much kind of edge about it. And I don't know how to let go of that because it's worked so well like the standards you know and like holding a the idea of what i see in my head man you are far more advanced to me well i haven't mentioned all my shitty stuff where i'm terrible part two screaming at people losing my mind that'll be a

that'll be are you making a joke or is that serious no i mean there's oh you're making me feel better about myself there's always like a dark dark side to fighting fighting for what you believe in and and at times behaving in ways that you're not proud of sometimes in service to the work sometimes in service to your ego and fear that it's going to get screwed up yeah and you know i had an enormous amount of experiences where like i pushed it too far fought too much or was disrespectful to people to protect the work yeah and i've had pure ego meltdowns where like i could wake up in the middle of the night and go i can't believe i yelled to that person like that yeah uh so there's there's plenty of that where I learned the lessons and they still, it still happens, but I'm aware of it. Judd, thank you. What's, what is,

you got a scrapbook you're working on. Like when do we get to see that? It's coming out in November. Maybe they'll start selling it at the end of the summer. It's called comedy nerd and it's just pictures from my career, memorabilia, ephemera. It's my hoarding, but I put it all in a book and I wrote essays about all the different projects and different things that have happened.

And most of the money, all the money goes to charity, but most of the money goes to fire aid for people who have been affected by the fires in LA. Beautiful. Of course you're doing that. You've also got some shows. You're on the road a bit. Where can folks find you or where can we find out where you're going to be i'm usually at largo once a month and i do a benefit at largo once a month uh and there's always like weird surprise guests

yeah it's it's cool what do you call it friends with just it's just jud and friends yeah i do it about once a month and it's an excuse for me to just beg people I admire to do a show with me. So we've had like every, you know, we did one with Michael McDonald this year from the Doobie Brothers. Like, like all my heroes, I have an excuse to beg them to, to come. That's what's up. Judd, thank you. Thank you. Emma, how great was that? Like no joke, maybe one of my favorites of all time.

When you say all time, I start thinking like GOAT, like greatest of all time? It had it all. It was funny. It was emotional, inspirational. I loved it. Okay, Emma, who do we have next? Okay, we're back to the Modern Leadership Series. And this time it's Ellen Shook. Okay. So in this conversation, I got to sit down with Ellen Shook, Accenture's former chief leadership and human resources officer, to explore what it means to lead with empathy, courage, and connection. This is our third installment of our Modern Leadership series. And in this conversation, we talked about the power of purpose, why human potential is unlocked through belonging, and how creating

human-first workplaces drives innovation. Ellen's wisdom on leadership and transformation, it's invaluable. Be sure to tune in for this one. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no-cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're listening. Also, if you haven't already, please consider dropping us a review on Apple or Spotify. We are incredibly grateful for the support and feedback.

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