Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Katie Holloway: Fire in the Eyes

Episode Date: April 13, 2016

Fire in the eyes. What does that thought conjure up for you? Katie Holloway describes it as what she feels like when she's at her best. She outlines how she thinks and trains her mind to advance her abilities to become more resilient in the face of adversity. Katie is a competitor. In this episode: -Growing up with one leg in pain and externalizing her frustrations -Family involvement throughout childhood -Persevering through constant bullying -What strength means to her -Becoming comfortable in her own skin -Finding her purpose -Her burning desire to prove others wrong -The meaning behind “heart” -Inviting stress into her life to grow -What it’s like having one leg -The rewards of embracing who you are -Implementing imagery to improve one’s craft -Surrounding yourself with the right people -Dealing with her inner critic -The ideal competitive mindset -Her biggest fear on the court -Habits that have allowed her to be the best in the world_________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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that actually convert, try LinkedIn Sales Navigator for free for 60 days at linkedin.com slash deal. That's linkedin.com slash deal. For two full months for free, terms and conditions apply. Finding Mastery is brought to you by David Protein. I'm pretty intentional about what I eat and the majority of my nutrition comes from whole foods. And when I'm traveling or in between meals on a demanding day, certainly, I need something quick that will support the way that I feel and think and perform. And that's why

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slash findingmastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash findingmastery. And in this conversation, we get to learn from Katie Holloway. She's a two-time Paralympian and two-time silver medalist. Katie was born without a fibula in her right leg. And at the age of 20 months, she had her right foot and ankle amputated. Now we all have challenges. Every single person on the planet faces challenges. And this conversation, it's a wonderful opportunity to learn about the thinking and the habits that Katie employed to be able to adjust, to be resilient, and to find joy in life. She's also become the first and only woman to wear a prosthetic limb and play NCAA Division I basketball.

And she did that at Cal State Northridge. She played so well in high school that many of the coaches that were recruiting her actually didn't know she was wearing a prosthetic leg. So the hope behind this conversation is that you can soak in the ways that you can think about the way that she is thinking and designing her life to pursue. And there's a particular tone about Katie that is unique. And I hope through this conversation, you'll be able to really pull that thing out. All right. We'd like to try something different in this conversation. And there's been so many conversations and questions offline via emails and social media that I'd like to try to capture a way to respond. So if you have questions that are specific to Katie, go to the comments page on the findingmastery.net website.

And it's findingmastery.net forward slash Katie dash Holloway, H-O-L-L-O-W-A-Y. And then I'll try to use the app called AnswerCam to be able to respond with video to the questions that come up. And let's see if this is an effective way to go a little deeper in the conversation. Now, this episode is brought to you by my wife and son. And I just want to thank them. I mean, they've given me the gift to be able to explore my passions freely. And I want to thank them. I mean, they've given me the gift to be able to explore my passions freely. And I want to thank both of you for the support and I'm forever grateful. So thank you. And I just want to take a quick minute to wish everyone listening deep joy and, you know, the joy that comes when you find out how to live on the razor's edge more gracefully.

And I wish all of you absolute best. And to be able to, what that means to me is like to find the hope that you'll be able to find a life of meaning and value and love and passion and deep connection with others through awareness and the pursuit of wisdom. So with that in mind, let's jump right into this conversation with Katie. Katie, welcome. Hi, thanks for having me. All right. So here we are. We're in San Francisco. And I'm really looking forward to this conversation. Me too. You have no idea how much of a fan I've been. I've been listening to all the podcasts. So I'm excited. It's been fun for me as well. So thank you for that. And because um, cause I'm, I think what happens is that we have these conversations or I get to have these conversations

and they go out into the world and then I'm not really sure what happens from that point, but I've really appreciated the feedback and the stuff that's come back about, um, you know, pearls of wisdom or applied, uh, pieces of information that people are gathering. So it's, this has been fun. I hope this conversation that you and I are having or is equally as rewarding as listening to it. I think it will be. I think you'll also probably, I'll probably touch on some other podcasts that you've done before as some examples. So yeah, perfect. All right. So where did your path begin where you first became interested in becoming really good at something?

Gosh, I think, you know, I started sports at a young age. I started playing when I was about four years old. Why sports? I think it's my sister. My sister played sports. And my whole family is tall and very much into sports. So I think it was just my family lineage. How many sisters and brothers? just an athletic history that really led me to starting sports. But in terms of wanting to get good, I think it was mostly somewhat middle school and then definitely in high school when you really

start to specialize and wanting to play all year round. And so that was basketball and volleyball for me. Were you tall when you were young? Yes. I was taller than every kid in my class. What was that like for you? Horrible. You did not appreciate it. No, I hated it. Do you like it now? I love it now. Yeah. And I love that I'm special, you know, and it took me 30 years, 29 years to get into my own skin that way. Oh, it took you 29 years. I mean, okay. So I, I guess it would say, I would say 21. It took me till then to really get into start getting into comfortable skin with this tall okay there you go um in elementary school let's let's let's pull on this a little bit okay so you're 12 years old and you're taller

than all the boys yep yeah and you're taller than all the girls. Yep. Yeah. And you're taller than all the girls. And I have one leg. Oh yeah. I'm really tall and I only have one leg. Which one was more of a thought or consuming thought for you? Your leg or your height? My leg. It was. Yeah. And so the combination of the two, was that pretty noisy for you? Yeah, I would say the height made me feel uncomfortable on a regular basis. The leg made me uncomfortable in sports and in PE or whenever I had to be exposed as in wearing shorts or going swimming, especially in middle school. So let's go. Yeah. Let's stay with middle school. You were, were you competing against your peers? Yeah. Yeah. And so it was, there, there wasn't a special group that you were competing with. You know, it was like you and Susie from wherever across the street and you were competing with them on a regular basis.

Yeah. So I grew up in a small town, so there was no other kid with a disability like myself. Really? Yeah. And so, um, did you have a prosthetic that worked? I did, but it was, um, it was a challenge. So the prosthetic office was an hour South in Seattle, actually downtown Seattle. Um, so it was whenever I got adjustments or whenever something happened, when it broke or whatever, it would be a long trek down there and it would be a whole day out of school or more. And it would be my mom and I, or my dad and I taking the whole day. And so whenever something painful happened, forget it. It was either you suffer through the pain or you just keep going. And so, um, or you, or you have to go to the prosthetic

office and sit for an hour and be out of school and stop everyday life. So most of the time it was just be in pain. Really? So you learned how to manage or be in pain? Yes. I would say I wasn't good at it, but I learned how to do it. Okay. When you say you weren't good, what did you do when you're in pain? What was your response to it? Well, you can ask my mom and dad. They were probably the ones that suffered more than I did because, and my sister for that matter, because I was angry and upset and I was a challenge. I think I, I just was very negative and I just put that pain out into the world instead of, you know, hide it. Um, and as, as time went on, I think when I got older, I, I found ways to manage it a little bit better in terms of internally internalize it as opposed to like get angry at

my mom or dad. So that was your strategy as a young kid, which was to externalize it, right? Cause it was so unsettling inside that you would take that, um, take it out. Yeah. Whatever it was, it sounds like it's like a rage, but that's probably too big of a word, right? It was like a frustration or something along those lines and you just put it on other people and you're difficult to be around yeah was that was that on a regular basis or yeah i think so i mean in a sense that i was would your mom agree to that what we're talking about my whole family would but i only did it to my family that's the interesting part i think is i i did it to the people i loved the most because I knew they would forgive me. And so by unleashing on them, knowing –

Hold on. This is really important. I find the same pattern in my own life. the most and the people that are closest to me, it's like I too reveal or share parts of me or maybe I'm less disciplined around. And I don't mean disciplined in a structured, rigid way, but there's something really important what you're talking about. And tell me their response to you growing growing up how did they respond when you were challenging to them um well they got punished a lot okay so they put that they put boundaries

and they're like this is not okay yeah whatever this is yeah can you think of a particular time in your in your 12 13 14 year old ages where you're like, this story captures my young ages? Yeah. Well, I don't know if this is relevant to the punishing part or the angry part, but one moment that sticks out was in middle school when I didn't make a basketball team. And it was our select basketball team. And all the girls on my middle school team actually made the team. And my mom and I got back out of the tryout and sat in the car. And I opened up the sheet that said I didn't make it.

And we just both sat there and cried and basically processed it. And it was so hurtful to me. But that moment went away. And my mom said, do you still want to play? And I said, yes. And she said, okay, we'll find another team then. And we did. So I guess that's not really related to what we were just talking about in terms of being angry But it was the way that we continually processed through my tough times in my life Okay. Yeah. So of all the stories that kind of came up from that question the story that you chose to remember or share was that Mom demonstrated resiliency. I was out going for it. I was trying to figure it out Things didn't always work and mom said listen, let's keep going if you for it. I was trying to figure it out. Things didn't always

work. And mom said, listen, let's keep going if you want it. So she listened to you. So that question is really important. Do you, do you want to continue? Do you want to keep doing this? You responded with a yes in this, in this story. And then she was clearing the path in front of you. It sounds like, right. Or giving you opportunities to keep going if that's what you wanted to do. Yeah. And I think my whole family did that in a way that they, they almost created this bubble around me that was this, this, um, attitude and this pathway to say, you know what, it does suck for you, but this is how we're gonna, this is how we're going to proceed. And, and and sacrificing things in my family to do that. Okay. They would sacrifice. Yes. I think my sister would. I think my dad would. I think my mom would. And then even our extended family would sacrifice just things that would probably, they weren't probably

big ways. They were just small ways that made it say, okay, let's just keep moving forward. And things like my sister, she had her own sports career and she was amazing at basketball and volleyball and softball. But when things got rough, we would have dinner together, we would do stuff together and we'd bring it back to the center, you know? And, um, I think my dad, he gave up his coaching jobs when we, when things got more in depth for sports for both my sister and I, he loved to coach football and, and track and field and doing all these things. And I think once we got to high school, he gave all that up to make it so that we could carry our sports careers forward because it just got too

hard, um, doing it, um, all at once for my mom. So I think it was just way subtle ways that they came around me that made it, you know, better. I think it sounds like your family, you have a lot of gratitude for them, like the work that they created. I do now. I didn't show it very well back then. Yeah. But it also sounds like you're like reflecting now your family is really focused on progression, like getting better and moving forward is the phrase that you use. Yeah. So do you, is that still part of you? I would imagine it is. Oh yeah, absolutely. Is that at your center? Yeah. I think this drive and this persistence to just be better, get better, pursue something more for myself. I think that's,

that's always been something I just, I have it in my heart and it's always like, and even just examples growing up, I look back and say, you know, why was I, why did I go forward? It's because there's no other choice. And that's just how it was. Like you can either fail and keep failing or you can move past it. But to me, the clear answer was you have to move past it because that's the only choice that'll make things better and happier, you know? And you say that like, it's so obvious, right? But it's a choice. Yeah. And, and the choice is, let me see if I can capture this. The choice is I can continue to

do what I'm doing. That's not working where I can shift something to move forward. And to do, if I do that shift, part of that shift is letting go of what was keeping me stuck. And is that what you're saying? Is that what I'm hearing? Or is there something else that I'm missing? Yeah, no, I think that's about right. I mean, I don't know how – I kind of know how I've gotten from 21 on, you know, and how my life shifted completely 180. But even just back growing up, I don't, they were really dark times. And even when I asked my family, let's, you know, remind me of a time that we really struggled or that was really hard or that there was a lot of bullying going on because there was a lot of bullying in my life. We all kind of pushed it aside and we've moved

past that. And so it's kind of hard to bring up some of those memories, but there's still some there that resonate with my family. But we've almost pushed that part of our lives aside because it was just so, just, you know, it wasn't great. You smile when you say this. Yeah. Because we've moved past it. Yeah. You know, and I, well, at least I have, I think my family, luckily I think my family loves me no matter what, but, um, I think they've, you know, I think they're so proud and so happy of where I've gotten to that, you know, we all just look back and go, you know. When you think of the pain that you've been through, and I think all of us have pain, right? And we all have places and parts of our life that are dark and we'd like not to reveal or talk about or remind ourselves of on a regular basis. And I think it's really important to be able to face the ghost is a phrase that I've come to appreciate.

When you face that thing that you're afraid of, that's when you need to stop or you don't have to keep running from it. When you talk about that time in your past, where the pain or whatever it was, where does that live in your body when you're just noticing and you think about, I don't know, something? Um, I don't know. I mean, can you say more? Okay. So, okay, let's go here. Think of a time that was really tough. Um, been quite a few times. Um, I'd say, you know, I'd say in terms of the younger years, a lot of it was the pain of coming home every single day and crying because I was different. Um, is there a particular, a particular kid or a particular day? Yeah, there was, there was some moments where I, I kind of rehashed this with my mom just recently about, um, playing softball and my girls,

the girls on my seventh and eighth grade team were, I had one or two friends that were close to me and my coach actually was very protective of me, but I had the worst time with my softball team. So bad that I don't remember the mean, mean moments, but I do remember this one time that came clear was, and my mom reminded me that we had to, every day we had to run to the softball field and back. And I was always the back of the pack, almost always the back of the pack because there was this major hill. And we had to run to the field every day. And one day I got to the field and – Could you run at the same clip as everyone else or because of your prosthetic were you a little slower?

Oh, I was a lot slower. Noticeably so. Noticeably so, but I could keep up if that makes any sense. So I was at the back of the pack, but I could keep up. And so one day- Sorry. Were you working harder than them? Yeah. You were working harder. I felt like I was. Yeah. And growing up, I had a just, technically, I had a prosthetic that worked well for athletics in terms of it wouldn't break as easy. Like it was made for like a 500 pound man. But it wasn't like these days where kids have these running blades that make it easier to run straight ahead.

It wasn't like that. I had like a regular leg, one leg because insurance would only cover that much. And so we're running and my mom gets it. We're actually playing a game that day. And my mom gets to the field. And our coach, my coach, like sees her as soon as she gets to the field, we're about to start a game pulls her aside and says, grab Katie, go to the bathroom and ask her what happened. And again, I sort of remember this day and I sort of don't, but what happened was she pulls me into the bathroom and it's like, what happened? What happened? Your coach just asked me to ask what happened. And I said, don't. I said, don't.

Don't ask me because I'm going to start crying and I don't want to start crying. And she said, okay. And she let me go. And I went and played the softball game. And then we came home that night. And I think what happened and I'm trying as best as I can recall was that do you remember the don't? Yeah. You remember that part in the back? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Cause that was my defense mechanism. Don't let them see me cry. Don't ever let them see me cry because then they'll win. That was my mental attitude. So, so that came from a place of, um, I want to be able to at all times demonstrate strength. Right. And you had this idea that crying was a demonstration of weakness yeah and that they would win do you still have that same model no no so what is strength now

um strength now is like a sense of almost a sense of confidence and this ability to show that you are capable and that you can recover and that you can be calm under fire. Um, and that you're comfortable with who you are. That's strength to me. Look at that. You're capable of meeting the demands of whatever the environment that you're in. You have a sense of confidence about yourself, which is like, hey, I'm going to go for it. I'm not sure how it's going to go, but I'm going to give it all. Yeah. Right? I think I can do that.

That's confidence. I'm nodding my head. It's not like I think I'm scared, but it's like, I think I got this. I think I can do this. Right? Yeah. And that's the fun part is when you're not exactly, at least for me, when you're not exactly sure if you're going to be able to do it, but you're still like, I want to go for that. Yeah. A sense of calmness and groundedness in that experience

for you. And then what was the last thing that you said? Calm under fire. Yeah. Right. Being able to be calm under fire and then recovering well. Yes. Recovering well. Yeah. Yeah. Really cool. That does sound strong. Yeah. Finding mastery is brought to you by Momentous. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday, what you put in your body matters.

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and use the code findingmastery20 at felixgray.com for 20% off. So if somebody says something mean or hurtful or emotionally upsetting to you now, right? Maybe it's a dear friend or whatever it might be. How do you respond to that? So to me, the strength in that is almost what is your response? Is your response to react and be angry? Is your response to be is to react and lash back out? Or is it the strength part, which is to take in whatever it is they're saying, find the pieces of awareness in yourself that are factual and that you need to actually reflect back on yourself and then be able to process it and respond appropriately, which to me. Appropriately to you or appropriately to the situation or appropriately for the other person's opinion of you. You see that framework? Yeah. Which way are you thinking about it now?

Appropriately for the person that you're talking to. Okay. I think. Yeah. So the trap in any one of those traps, if it's all about you, that's a trap because we're always engaged with other people and environments. If it's just about the context of the environment, there's a trap that maybe you are not totally you because you didn't get to say or feel or express the thing you wanted to. And the trap, if it's appropriate to the other person, is maybe the same thing. Maybe you don't get to express the way that you really would like to express because you want to make sure, I don't know, that you don't upset them in return or you don't give them satisfaction, which was your former model. I'm not saying that I do the third thing well. I'm saying that I try to do it.

Doesn't that make sense based on your first 21 years or first 15, 16 years that that was the thing that you didn't do, that you just shared that you didn't do well at that time. Probably you didn't know how, right? And then now you're saying, okay, it's really important for me not to lash and to respond overly aggressively. I would say I'm 50-50, but maybe somebody else would say different. But I feel like 50-50, I react emotionally and 50-50, I act appropriately to the person. What do you think that most people do when they're in an uncomfortable...

This is now for everyone that I know I'm thinking about and everyone maybe even listening. What do you think most people do when they are under an emotional attack and it might be by mistake someone didn't mean to trigger an emotional response in you that's upsetting or it's just they just don't have what it takes to be fluid in said environment what do you think most people, how most people respond? What was the first one? Okay. So they give an appropriate, like almost politically correct for the situation. The first one was that they respond based on authenticity to themselves. That first one.

You think most people do that? Yeah, actually. Oh, you do? See, I think most people don't do that. I think most people wish they would be authentic, but don't know how when they're under emotional duress. Right? Like, so say, say you said something to me that was, um, and there's other people around and it was like really embarrassing. I wish that I wouldn't just fire back. That's what I do most of the time. Yeah. Right. And I wish that I would spend more time saying, hey, you know, I just heard what you said. That hurt.

Yeah. Like that. That's a bummer. You know, like I feel a certain way about it. But the guard that I feel like so much of us, so many of us and me included have to publicly put on. Not that we want it. And I think this is the, one of the really important parts of growth is that that shiny armor that we had as junior high kids, that that shiny armor becomes, the need for armor becomes less and less and less until wisdom is found where we realize we don't

need armor. Right. Yeah. And then intellectually we can say that, right? We don't need armor. Like, okay. Yeah. And then as soon as we're under a fire, what do we do? I wish I had more armor. Where my brain was going was like the person on the airplane that's angry at the flight attendant for some reason and they just lash back out.

That's where I was going in my mind that people like just lash back out. Disrespectfully. Yeah. Because it's just their reaction as opposed to actually being able to hear a person and then process and then respond appropriately. Yeah. I'm glad you clarified that. That's cool. That's where my brain went.

What happened at age 21? You referenced like at 21 you became. Yeah. Well, I was actually 19. I became a part of the Paralympic team. And I realized there's a world out there of girls like myself, and that have that are amputees and that love who they are for how they were born and how they were or how they came to be an amputee and they embraced it. And I learned from them that it's, you can be positive and you can be an athlete and you can be all these things that I didn't think you could be in terms of confident and have this disability. And was it the fact that you were part of

something special, a part of a special community, or was it the fact that you were part of something special, a part of a special community, or was it the fact that you were part of like-minded people that were also that you felt at home with meaning they were hungry, they wanted to get better. They wanted to be part of something or maybe both. Yeah. I think it was just that I was around girls and women that were comfortable in their own skin. What's the difference between girls and women for you? Um, that's really, you want me to answer that? I think, I think girls are emotional and women are 10. Well, women are emotional too, but that's a hard question.

Do you ask Ben this question? Yeah. What's the difference between men and boys? Maturity. And that means, I don't know, like girls, we just haven't quite chilled out yet. Same with guys. There's a level of maturity in between. Okay. Looking at your lenses, are you a girl or a level of maturity in between. Okay. Looking at your lenses, are you a girl or a woman? I'm a woman now. And then when did that happen?

I think, I mean, that's still happening, I think. I feel like it's still happening. But I feel like it's happened over the last 10 years of my life, probably. And I'm not thinking like a tribal, aboriginal type of rite of passage, but I'm thinking about a series or one particular moment where you're like, this is the woman I've always wanted to be, and I just now have evidence that I can settle into this. I think there's been a few moments that have pushed me along that way, but I can't say that it's been just this year. Oh, now I'm a woman. I think it's more like, um, you know, the calendar won't do it for you. No. So like college, I was definitely a girl. Um, when I moved out to Oklahoma and pursued volleyball full time, um, and that point forward, there was life moments that I can kind of point out that really made me feel like,

okay, this is, this is more, there's more responsibility on you. And now, you know, and it's kind of been around these, um, kind of great things happening in my life. Like in 2008, when I graduated from college, I got this, um, courageous athlete award and, and I went through this ceremony in Orlando and it was like this, Oh, it's a lot bigger than me feeling. And I got to accept this award and I was like, this is what I, that's really cool. Yeah. It was just like this really great moment that I, I felt that there was something happening bigger than me. Yeah. What's the bigger? The bigger than me was what is my purpose in life and, and where is that heading? And for me, because I became a part of the Paralympic team, it was like this, um, it was this natural gravitation towards sports. So playing and being, continuing to be an athlete. But then when I got

that award, it was like, I was now fully participating in Paralympics. And it was like this thing that was very therapeutic to me. And I realized that this is something I want to pursue further. And so I have now I have another purpose in my life that's helping people to get the same out of what I just got out of Paralympics. I'm nodding my head because I think that that's, there's a really important arc and transition that you're picking up on that I've picked up on from a lot of people is that there's this first part of becoming that is marked by, um, not a greediness, but a self-absorption. Like I want to get better, you know, and it's about me and maybe it's at the

cost of other people, relationships. And, but there's about me and maybe it's at the cost of other people, relationships. And, but there's this, there's like the, the gaze and the spotlight is on the self. And then there's a part where it's, no, it's about the performance, right? It's not about me being the performer, but it's about the performance. And that's more of like the artist kind of piece in there. And then there's this another arc or transition that's become apparent, which is, you know, it's about taking that art and that understanding and sharing. And through that sharing, maybe, maybe, I mean, who are we to say, but maybe it impacts other people in a positive direction, but that's part of the hope, right? Is, okay, how can I, how can, what can I do and how can I help others? And not in a codependent way and not in a self-aggrandizing way, but the, like the global idea that like it's bigger. and I would have these meaningful long conversations over Christmas where he would basically tell me like, you need to be public speaker and you need to inspire all these people.

And I'm like, ah, I'm not there yet. You know, just like you said, it was this all about me and my performance and, and proving that I was an athlete first. Don't, don't worry about my disability. Like let's pay attention to how I am as an athlete. And it was all in that pursuit. So that was like a, that was like the single focus you had through basketball? For basketball. Was it proving to others or proving to yourself? It wasn't proving to your family. They already had your back.

It was proving to others. Proving to others. Yeah. And was it proving to the other girls on the 12-year-old girls? Was it proving to them even when you're 19? Yep. That was all the fire in my eyes was to prove people wrong because they kept telling me I couldn't do it or that I wouldn't do it. And it was like, Oh, okay, I'll, I'll prove you wrong. And so it was

that, that edge of getting to play division one and getting there, getting to that point. And, and then trying to make people ignore the fact that I had a disability to say, no, no, I'm, I'm a good as a standalone athlete. Don't let's not, let's leave the disability behind, but it was always that desire to prove people. So you said some, okay. So I'm curious if that's still there for you, if that's still the driving force for you or if it's something different, but I want to go back to this idea before you answer that. I want to go to, um, the fire in your eyes. Okay. That's a really sharp phrase. Yeah. And when you said it, you had, did you feel it? Did you feel it? Yeah. Like, yeah. Okay. So just, can you describe what

that feels like for you? Yeah. It's like a burning in my soul. Like it's like this feeling that it's so, I don't, I don't know how to explain it other than I just, I feel this pit in my stomach, this desire, like this fire in my heart, this passion to just kill the competition. I don't know. It's like this drive that I have in me that wants to succeed, whether it's in sports life, whatever, it's like this huge, just in motivation to just keep going at all costs. Fire in your, in your eyes or behind your eyes. What did you say? I can't remember. It starts with my heart though. It comes from my heart. Yeah. Yeah. And I think a lot of it, um, comes from this moment where I, um, I lost my grandfather. He took his own life and I actually was able to through that situation. I lost my heart.

And I, when I, and was during college basketball, it was a really tough time. And I had to, after going home for about a week to grieve his loss and go through that, um, I had to come back to basketball, which I hated, hated basketball. I hated everything in me. Just, just hated it. But I kept moving forward because I knew it was something I knew I had to do. Was this to prove to other people? Yeah. So you didn't love the joy of it. It was to prove other people that you can do. Probably. Oh, there you go. though, interestingly, I had the recognition probably six months later that it took heart to actually do what I was doing. Even though I thought I hated it, I had literally, my heart

broke when I lost my grandfather. So you had it. I had it. But it broke when I lost him. And so when I came back and started playing, I realized I needed it to keep running up and down the court to keep just having any motivation out there. It was I needed that piece of me to do it. And I recognized that was an important part of why or how I was doing what I was doing. And so I don't know how the pieces eventually put back together, but it was because I knew my grandfather would say, you know, if I quit or something and be like, you know, he'd be so disappointed. So it was all that drive, putting my heart back together. And then interestingly, life presented the Paralympics to me in 2006, right after I lost him. So it was like, I lost this big piece of me. And then I got this huge, huge, successful thing back in my life. Yeah. Okay. Really? Yeah. It makes sense to me, right? Is that you had all this stuff at a young age, the story that you've just shared, you had this stuff at a young age that was about,

you know what? I'm going to show these sons of bitches. Like you're not stopping me. Right. And I'm, I'm doing this with one leg or not. Like, I don't, you know, I'm going to show you that I got whatever it takes. Right. And that's that fire, maybe part of the heart. And there was an edge to you like a razor's edge. And I want to talk about razor's edge in a minute. And then, um, but you didn't have the joy and the love from basketball. Um, but you had lots of heart and fire and, and, and drive and motivation. And it was really about showing others. Yeah. Sounds like.

I don't want to be too simple, but it sounds like. And then you had this incredible pain. You lost love. Your heart broke. And then your grieving process through that, there was a realization that, whoa, maybe like I didn't love basketball, but I did have heart and heart felt good and fire felt good. Right. And then whatever circumstances shifted and took place, you found Paralympics. Yep.

And full circle, you're one of the best in the world at what you do. And you've got this ability to be able to have all of your life experiences bring you to now in this conversation, right? Like here you are. And what would you attribute maybe a guiding principle or word or phrase that has been really important for you in your life? I would just say heart. It is heart. It is heart. It's totally heart because- What does heart mean? Is that the fire in your eyes? Yeah.

Is that the same thing? But you said, no, it's not just in my eyes. That's almost like this instinctual thing that I feel from you as you're talking about. But the heart seems different. Yeah. Fire in my eyes is like you'll see pictures of it on the court. Volleyball. Trust me.

People have mentioned it multiple times. It's like this serious focus, right? So that's fire in my eyes. But the heart part comes is, is, is all of your accumulated experiences in your life that sucked and the resiliency to get past that and the persistence to get past that is, is all because of heart. Um, seeing a challenge a challenge and so many people see challenges in their life, but not, there's not, I mean, I think there's a lot of people actually that transcend them, but to really get past all of those challenges takes a lot of heart. And I think that's one of the most important things you can have. Because if you keep seeing

these challenges or big brick walls in your way, and you don't have the heart to get past it, even if people tell you it's impossible, you still have a heart. You still can get through it. And is heart drive? Is it hunger? Is it passion? Is that what heart is? Or is there something that I'm not picking up on? All of that.

It's all of that. It's drive, hunger, passion, persistence, resiliency. That's your whole heart. Love. Yeah. Okay. What do you love? I love my family.

I love to love people. I love people. I love interacting with people. I love engaging people. I love volleyball. I'm a huge volleyball fan now. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day. And Cozy Earth has become a new part of that.

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That's caldera lab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash finding mastery. Do you love volleyball or do you love the feelings that you get when you're playing volleyball? Is it the feeling, the expression, or is it the sport? I love everything about it. Sorry, cop out answer. But I really do. I love when I play it. And I love the people and the culture around it.

I love every aspect about it. Why don't you – why are you still – no, that's not a good question, I think. I want to know why you don't protect yourself because other people, when you were younger were, um, you felt pain bullied, um, by them and a healthy natural response would be to protect yourself. So you don't feel that again your heart gets you anywhere. It will get you safe. It will get you safe. Yeah, it will be safe.

But you have to be able to have an open heart to move forward with anything and allow yourself pain, which makes you learn, which makes you better. You have to allow yourself stress in order to create things that are better. Okay, stop, stop, stop. I know you got one more, but I want to hear the third one. I don't even know the third one. I'm just going. Oh, you're riffing. Yeah, okay. Because it's just so pain to pain to grow. Okay. You know that I love that. Yeah. Not in a masochistic way, but yes. Like if you can be open enough and truthful enough to feel the pain, that that pain is why we begin change and it could be dissatisfaction to radical pain, but it's embracing that pain. Maybe you call it suffering, right? But it's pain.

And then you added a nice layer to it, which is, and then inviting enough stress in your life for adaptation, for growth. And uncomfortableness, like being uncomfortable. People that know me are going, Mike, that's what you say all the time. So we're right on the same page with this. And so looking for uncomfortable experiences is how we grow. I'm sorry, how we grow. And so it's the combination of those two, doing it intelligently with proper recovery is this arc of progression. Right. And it's weird to me that when I was growing up, I was in a constant state of discomfort and I hated it. Was it pain or discomfort? Emotional, physical pain or discomfort? Pain came from hurt from others.

Discomfort came from discomfort in who I was as a person. Yeah. And being in my own skin, tall, one leg, you know, being different than everyone. And so of course I spent a lot of years in that place, but it's almost like now it's, it's almost like I seek it out. Seek what? Seek out discomfort or find ways to get better at knowing who I am so that I don't feel that anymore. And it's exhausting. Thereby the need to recover. But that's the arc of progression.

Most people are looking for comfort. Yeah. Most people that I get to have conversations with are not. They're looking for uncomfortableness to grow. Trust me. I am not good at change. I will say that right now. Change and me don't get along well.

Like even especially growing up when I have to get a new leg, all that stuff. It's like. You know, that sounds really strange to me. Of course it does. You don't know. You're not in this world yet. When you get in this world, you will be able to make jokes all the time. We talk about it with my other friends.

They're like, oh, we must be really close because now I can joke about how you don't have leg room on an airplane and only have one leg and stuff like that. What is it like to have one leg? Well, I'm pretty good at it. So I've known nothing different, but it's like, um, walking around without a shoe on if you, you know, it's, it's just, there's always something to manage. Um, it's not that hard. It could be a lot worse. Um, but in terms of, yeah, it's a daily management. What would you say to somebody that has two legs and two arms? Like, um, what, what is the analogous or the analogous? What is the comparison? You said it's like not having a shoe, but I think

like, I get that. Like, it's like, Oh, that's a little uncomfortable. It's a little distracting and, but you could get used to it. Like, no problem. That's exactly it. You figure it out, right? Yeah, I could figure out that. That's exactly it. And I think that it looks different than what you just described. Like I've got something maybe that somebody can't see, but it is annoying or debilitating to me.

Even though they can't see it, the world sees something for you. Let's say it's for me. I can't do math or I can't read or disabilities, right? Or a gastrointestinal condition. Or I don't know. I'm making stuff up right now that is it like that where, but everybody can see yours. Yeah. Yeah. It's just like you just said, it's exactly like that. You just figure it out. You just figure it out. It's, and it's not even

that debilitating. Um, there's worse days than others where you're just like, Oh, I'm tired of people's comments, stares, whatever. But most of the time you just figure it out and life moves on. And actually, and a lot of people will say this that I know in Paralympics especially is that I'm so grateful for my disability because I wouldn't be where I am today without it. Meaning I've traveled the world. I get to do these amazing, incredible things. Once I opened my life up to that, I got to be this amazing, special person that I'm like, it's just because I'm missing a leg. This is great. Well, it was always there. That was always there. And I think the eloquent,

who am I to say eloquent? But I think the – well, let's just say the comparison would be that as soon as somebody embraces who they are, all of who they are, and they're not hiding maybe as much or at all who they are, that that becomes transformational. Because it's such a way of living that people are desires of like can i be all of me in any environment and that is so attractive that is so uh intrinsically rewarding to and yeah intrinsically rewarding in and of itself to be you wherever you go that you're demonstrating that for i think for so many people as you're saying, listen, I hope so. Yeah. Listen, I'm going for it. And this is what it looks like. Now let's go back to college for, for hoops for a minute is that you were on the regular

team. Yes. Okay. That for me, that's fascinating. I can't even imagine it. Most people can't even get to a D one pro was a D one or was it? Yeah. D one program with two legs and you're ripping with one

on the team. How much play did you get a lot of play time or was it like you barely made the team, but you're on it and you had to work your ass off? Like what, what, what was that like? Um, so I, um, played all four years, my freshman year, I was on the all freshmen team, my sophomore year, my goal when I got to Northridge was to make all conference honors every year. And so I played on average about 20 minutes my freshman through my freshman and sophomore year, about 25 minutes my junior year. And then I was up to like 35 my senior year. So I averaged quite a bit of playing time. And like my freshman year, I made all freshman team. My sophomore and junior year, funny, I was the sixth woman of the year

of my conference twice, which to me is kind of funny because you're supposed to kind of be a starter by the next year after that. And I was just really good at coming off the bench when the pace of the game slowed down. That's the way I interpret it. And then my senior year, I made second team all conference. But so I felt like I made an impact. And I played. I was a banger in the post. And I loved it. I loved it. But interestingly, I hated it. Right? It's crazy. I said in the same conversation, I hated it, but I loved every minute of it. I loved it. But interestingly, I hated it. Right. So it's crazy. I said in the same conversation, I hated it, but I loved every minute of it. Okay. So now you got me confused. What do you mean that you, you hate you? What did you hate? And what did you like every, well, at least I loved competing college female athlete probably knows what I'm talking about, which is you absolutely hate it, but you, you're there because your heart is there and you love it. And it's like this arduous process, right? You step

into the gym every day to just get killed and annihilated and practice or you're, you're running and your sprints or your conditioning is just gonna like kill you every day. I mean, I called my mom all the time crying and my dad, like every day, just, I hate it. I hate it. I hate it. And they would say, come home, come home, come home. But I never did. Never did. And so it's just this process of like going through it. But then the moment, the moments you remember, the memories you remember aren't wins. They're not losses. They're like how you spent the time with your team and the sisterhood that you created with your team and the family that you love now that you've left. And I think the biggest takeaway that people don't get from college – I think that a lot of college athletes get to take away from is that it was the hardest thing you've ever had to do. And now you're the strongest you could be because of it. Got it. And so I think that's what I really took away. I, I got my four year degree. That's what I went out to do. Um, and I'm much, much

stronger because of it. Where do you find the most joy in your life? Um, now the most joy, we just listened to that. Um, um, I think the most joy, it's a lot of things. Like I find a lot of joy in spending time with like-minded volleyball people. Like two weekends ago, I spent at this coach's clinic and just being around people that love volleyball. And I also find a lot of joy in being home with my family and relaxing and just being who I was, you know, being around all my family. Um, what, what excites you the most? Where naturally do you get most switched on? Is it around like-minded people or is it something else? Yeah. I would say I get really excited to do, to be around, you know, people that are excited about volleyball or it may be excited about the things I'm doing. You know, they inspire

me. I'm going there to do a talk or a, uh, like a motivational speech. And actually they turn around and they're inspiring me to keep going because they're super fascinated with what I get to do. What is the central theme or story or idea when you go speak to corporate America or whomever you speak to? I'm still trying to figure that out. Are you refining that message? Yeah. My main message is yet to be determined. And I feel like I'm going to hone in on it soon. And I don't know when that is. I'd love to have it just pop in my mind and know what it is.

But I feel like I don't know. I don't know what that is yet. And I feel like I do a lot of speeches and I come up with some snappy themes and stuff. But my main message that hits to the core, I still don't know. I would imagine just riffing with you now that it would have to do something with resiliency, which is when you have internal or external setbacks, the skills that you've come to figure out to be true, that have allowed you to continue to move forward. And I think that if what, what, what do I really know about this? But that is what I think most people really want to know is, okay, so when

you've got skills, and I'm sorry, you've got a particular way that you live your life, then you've got whatever roadblocks or internal and external, how do you figure it out? And if you just did the index on that, you would know exactly the right response. And if I asked you that, how do you figure things out? What would you say? I don't, that's the, that's the funniest thing is like, I just, I'm resourceful. I figure it out because I pull on all the resources and all the people and all the things that I've known. Why don't you give up? Cause it's not, that's not, it's not a possibility. Why don't you give up because it's not that's not it's not a possibility why don't you blame other people oh i do do you blame other people when it doesn't work out for sure i blame other people

people will tell you i blame other people i do um but i blame other people and then i go figure out how to how to get around it you know yeah i kind of very, I'm a very cynical person. I'm by nature. Yeah. Are you a pessimist or optimist? I, I feel like I'm a pessimist. Which it means that the future doesn't work. Whatever's going to happen in the future.

It's probably not going to work out. No, I mean, I'm an optimist in spirit. Which is something good's about to take place. But my humor is a pessimist. Oh, so like sarcastic. yeah like big time do you know the the root word of sarcasm no it's a car um and it means to rip flesh off a bone so i do that in competition you're sorry that's what you do yeah so when you think i do my competition you think about competition do you compete against them or are you competing with them to figure out how good you are what is your model now yeah it's it's with them to figure out how how to be the best yeah um your best or

the best uh my best your best so your focus is on you being your best. Well, no, I would. So I play on a team. So it's like, how do we get to be our best, our best to be the best. Yeah. All right. Right. So the it's first indexing on us rising tide for us floats all boats. And if we can get that swell to rise fast and efficiently, then we'll be, we'll have the highest tide and where you're not caring about necessarily hoping that they have a low rising tide, you know, like it's like, no, no, no, let's focus on us being great. And then when that happens, let's go test it. I actually think it's the way I've arrived at that. Um, understanding is that I actually think that I've always been trained, especially in basketball, like we've got to compete and we're competing to win. And it's just, you know, it's an all out battle and it's not, and you're competing against each other. In volleyball, I've learned a completely

different competitive mindset, I think, which is that we have a competitor, but it's really about what we do on our side, as opposed to competing against. And that's not sports specific. That's philosophically opposing ideas about the art of competition. So it's likely influenced by the environment for both sports, but it's not sports specific. It's a philosophically driven approach. I feel like it's like in my world it's been sport specific like i've learned two versions because of the two extreme or the two extremes that i'm playing at yeah obviously you like the one you're in now more i i love it yeah i i fit in with what you're talking about as well let's compete to figure out how good we can become together yeah let's see's see, let's see how far we can take it. And that's like competing in ways

like let's compete when we're ahead. Let's compete when we're behind. Let's compete when we're what it doesn't matter what they're doing. Like let's keep, it's almost like for me, I lose track of the score. I know that situation specific is not great maybe, but I don't care what the score is. At some point they're going to blow the whistle and say the game's over. But what I'm going to know at the end of the game, when my head hits the pillow, is that I brought every ounce and fiber of who I am into that experience. And I want to do life that way. I want to do love that way. I want to do everything that I'm doing when my head hits the pillow at night that I know that I was prepared and ready to meet the demands of today? I would say that I am exactly the same way, but I'm still not comfortable with that yet.

With what? With knowing that the result was the way it was and I'm okay with that result and I've done everything I can. I'm still not yet to the growth part of the result was a silver medal and I'm okay with that. I'm not okay with that silver medal. I know I did the best I could, but I'm still not okay with the result. Does that make sense? I know I realize in myself that I'm still not to the place in my life where no matter what the result is, I'm proud and I'm happy and content with how it was, whatever the result was. Two sobers?

Yes. Yeah. I'm thinking about going into Rio for you. I wonder if you could play with that just a little bit. Oh yeah. Trust me. That's actually one of my goals is like, I want this year to work on, work on myself and my mindset to know that whatever I'm doing to practice to whatever growth wise in my life and outside of volleyball,

that that results in Rio. It like, it's not that it doesn't matter, but it it's that it holds no value to who I am. Yeah. So it, because the, the larger value or the larger attention that you're focusing your mind and heart on is having fire is, is being connected on a daily basis. And if you can do that, the outcomes they're, they're going to happen. You know, there's no guarantees in it, but when, when your head hits the pillow at night, I'm certain that it's so much more rewarding and stings less. It's not, I want everyone I know to win, but that can't happen. Yeah. And I think, I think this last couple of years has been really tough for me,

especially on the volleyball court in terms of I've had such a greater fear in, because I'm not training full time. I'm, I'm training when I can and around work. And so I've had this enormous fear behind the service line where I just freak out. Okay. Let's try. Can I try something with you at something? All right. So here as an accelerant, we know the science is pretty good around this physically doing something with great intensity. That's like, and so when your mind is deeply focused in the present moment and you're doing the thing and it's in a progressive learning mode where you're trying to get better at something and you're all in it, almost nauseatingly so, that's the gold standard for physically getting better at some sort of part of your craft. And if you're saying you can't do the physical part because of work and other things that you're doing, you're not as on the court as often, right? Okay.

So what if you replaced it with something that we know is pretty sound from a science perspective is imagery. And I mean, what if you could go on an experiment for the next X number of months where it was a relentless approach, not to try to substitute being on the court, but that ought to be a first focus, right? Get out there, do your work, be in the gym, do all of that stuff for your physical preparation, um, and do it with great intensity while you're in it. But then at the same time, if you can't have that, what if you did 20 minutes a day? What if you did 10 and it would, your heart rate would come up. So I was working with, not working, I was in a conversation with one of the greatest in the UFC and we're talking about imagery.

And I know the science, I know all the kind of stuff around it. And I said, what's it like for you? I said, first I asked, do you do it? And he says, oh yeah. I said, what it's like? And he says, I love hearing, what do you say? I love what it feels like to hear the cage door close behind me, to imagine 17,000 fans screaming, knowing that they want blood, mine or the other. And when I can get my mind to be so connected to that environment, which I love, I love all of this, My heart rate comes up. And then I interrupted him and said, what do you do when your heart rate comes up? He says one of two things. So that's like a pivot for him. Either I stay with it and keep the imagery rolling. So that because that's what it feels like for me when I'm

in in the arena. Or when the heart rate comes up, I get a rep at bringing my heart rate down. So I pull myself out of the ring, so to speak, in his mind, and just focus on bringing my arousal down, my heart rate down. So he's getting a rep at finding calm, or he's matching his heart rate as it will feel in the ring or in the cage. So what if you went on to just a relentless pursuit and maybe rewrote the script about what imagery can do for performance over the next X number of months. And then for all of us listening that don't get to go to Rio and compete on the world stage, what if we made a commitment to say, this is what I want to experience in my life the most? Pause. Maybe even push the stop button on the radio right now or

podcast and answer that question. This is how I want to live and experience the majority of time of my life. And then that becomes the focus of imagery. What do you think? I think that's great. I've never done it. Come on. No.

You're one of the best in the world. And as good as you are, imagine if you start using some of the science here. I'm totally bought in. I'll do it. Okay. So here's like the basic mechanics of it, right? Okay. Remember when you're in a sandbox as a kid and you had an imaginary something? Yeah.

From a dump truck to whatever it was. I don't know. The dump truck was my thing, I guess. But whatever that was or there's a friend there or something like you could conjure up that the image and the imagination really easily as a kid. So you go back to that same same type of experience where you're completely absorbed with all of your senses, creating the experience that is stimulating to you. And it could be very small little nuances of doing

something, or it could be the feeling of walking into the arena, or it could be game point, or it could be serving. And then relentlessly, uncommonly so, nauseatingly so, seeing how you want to feel and be and do that thing. Okay. Done. Done. Let's go. Yeah. I'm just, so can you keep us posted on it? I can like, uh, on social is just like, I don't know, something that you've learned or something you're doing. And you know, that would be really fun. I think for people to be able to track this part of your journey. Yeah. I think I, I'll need some help in terms of like a little bit of guidance here or there, but I think we can set that up for you, figure it out.

But yeah, I think so. Cause I think the biggest thing is for me this year is getting rid of that fear and really stepping into the confidence again of my serving and especially just all the things that came has manifested in the last. Why not be on the court in Rio 1 million times before you get there? Why not? Everyone else is getting there for the first time. Yeah.

Why not be there? What? I don't know. 500,000, 10,000 times. Why not? Yeah. Just make up a carnival in my head.

Okay. If you were able to carry a message to somebody else who's on the pursuit of mastery, what, what would you want to ask of them, what would you want to ask of them? What would I want to ask of them? Okay. You know what? Let me ask another question first.

When you think of somebody who's on the path of mastery, who comes to mind? Literally, the answer that just came into my head was you. It's because we're looking at each other. Well, no, but that's really like because you're trying to find out what is mastery. You know, of course, my hero, Russell Wilson. Okay, so just conjure up. You could ask me a question. I'll answer anything you want. But like think about somebody who's on the path of mastery.

What would you want to know or ask them? Because I want to carry that forward. Yeah. Um, I would want to know, um, how, you know, what is it, what is the thing that, that is two things? One is what is it the thing that makes you, or that, that helps you learn more about your craft, right? So is it like going to conferences? Is it reading? Is it like the actual tangible thing? But then also, what is it that makes you get past the roadblocks? I'm more about, I think I'm more interested about the tangible things. Like, is it a mentor? Is it somebody that's like a, is it the, you know,

the things you can actually do that, that get you to the top level. I'll, I'll, I want to pass that on to, to somebody else that's coming up. And I also want to, um, let me just answer for me, you know, people, right. And people and experiences, it's those two things. So mentors being open for that, um, is really important seeking, seeking wisdom and others, which means that you have to look for it. And I think that we all have got genius and wisdom in there. How frequently we access it and live it is a different question, but looking for it. So that's what I'm looking for on a regular basis is the insight and wisdom that people have. And then the relationships that we have with people

like the mentors or not. Third question. Now that you say that, I'm interviewing you now. Then how do you continue those relationships with people that you know aren't always in your life? So I can think of one person, Coach Bill Courtney, who's, he wrote a book and it's, and he was on this Academy Award winning documentary. I had a chance to meet him. He's rad. He is. And he's some person that comes to mind that I have a relationship with. I feel I know I do, but I don't ever talk to him. I could email him freely. But how do you maintain those?

That person becomes a placeholder for a particular part of insider wisdom. Whether you know them or not, or whether you've read about them, or you've got an idea that you've conjured up, it becomes a placeholder for something that you are attracted to that they have seemed to understand. Yeah. They've seemed to understand. And I love it. Okay. Absolutely. And there's an exercise that I used to pay a lot of attention to. I haven't paid much attention to this lately, but at one time I did it. Who's on my roundtable?

Oh, interesting. Yeah. Who is that? What's your roundtable mean? Four, five, six people that it's the council. Is it the people you love? Is it the people that you respect? Or is it the people that mentor you? Is it like when I, when I want to get some counsel and wisdom and I can't call people necessarily, like who do I put there? Yeah.

Right. And who are those people? And some people I get there in my life every day. Yeah. I also feel like very lucky that I get to experience a lot of relationships with people over time. Like there's so many people I would love to be around on a daily basis and I just don't get enough time. And I'm like so excited

by them or I just love to be around them, but there's no way I can maintain these relationships. I feel awful because there's a lot of people that want to be around me, co-workers and people that want to spend time with me. I just can't maintain it all. And I wish I could. I think that's everybody. That's what I mean. I don't know how to keep these people in my life, but you know, and how to think about the placeholder. Drew Houston, um, from Dropbox, the founder of Dropbox asks a really good question. And he says, who are the five most important people in your life? Because we become the average. He says, we become the average of them intellectually, spiritually, financially. And that's one way to think about it. And then, so who are those closest relationships and choose wisely. And then the other that we're talking about is like the

round table. Like who do you put at that council to help guide you when you can reach out to them or it's just in your imagination? And then so let me ask you this question. Carly Lloyd, all time best right now, you know, woman of the year inside of soccer. She asked this question that she wanted to she was curious about. So, Carly, if you're listening, here we go. What percentage of the game is mental? And she's thinking particularly about the world stage.

My answer would be 90%. I would say 90% on the world stage. Because everyone physically and technically is. Yeah. Is very elite. Yeah. I'd say Carly's the 10%. She's like that, you know, where you're just insanely.

She's that 10% that is just all physical and just insane. She's not, yeah. But no, 90. I think her mental game is strong based on the conversation. Oh, for sure. I didn't mean that she wasn't strong. I meant that like she's that insane top percent that is mental and physical. Oh, got it.

Okay. But in terms of being on the world stage, competing on the world stage and what it takes, I would say 90% is mental, 10% is what you've physically gotten to. Because by that point of where you've gotten to, the gold medal match, the final game, you've already done what you can physically to get to that point. And it only takes that perseverance of the 10% of your body to actually get through the actual match. It's the mental that really is what makes you better win or lose. Cool. I think. Yeah. Okay. You hear, I hear a lot of different answers, but okay. Um, if you were to, this is now to try to capture some of the insight and wisdom that you've come to understand. If you were to look back and give your younger self, your 12-year-old self that we were talking about earlier, some sort of guidance. Be you.

There you go. Yeah. Be you and love you. Yeah. Be you and love you. Yeah. How? How do we be ourselves?

Um, we quiet the noise that's around us, which is the, even the around us or in us. So the thoughts that louder internal or external noise internal for sure. For sure. Yeah. Finding that signal. You would say if you can get connected more often to the signal, then you can be who you are more often. Yeah.

There you go. That's really cool. Yeah. Because it's your thoughts that are saying, did that person look at me weird? It's that it's those thoughts that are loud inside your head. And so it's those things that you need to quiet. And be aware of them. Yeah, and be aware.

Step one, be aware. Be aware, one, and two, then how do you react? Okay. And then what do you have your heart focused on next? A gold medal in Rio. Yeah. Can we add something to it? Sure.

Yeah, gold medal. The visualizations? No, well, maybe that'll get you there. Yeah. But what if there was a second part to it? So gold medals the outcome. Yes. What if you can also identify the process, right?

Like how you want to feel and engage from this day forward through post ceremony. Okay. Yeah. And I don't know the answer to that. I do. I want to have fun. I want to love and breathe in every experience from today on forward through the games. And I want to be, and I want that to be the process. I want that

to be the fun. I want that to be the gold medal that I win at the end. Let's go. Because then if you were saturated with fun and fun that comes from competition and right. The there's not fun, like ha ha all the time, but like the joy that comes with being able to bite down and be gritty. Okay. So I would say that that actually is something I want, but it's not that easy. I'm not good at that. Yeah, there you go. So it's meaningful. It's really good. Yeah. If you, if that was the saturation that you were looking to have as an experience, fear would be pushed right out of it for sure. Yeah. Which you said, I'm afraid that I'm not competing and, and that's might be, I'm not training enough and that might be a real deal.

Yeah. Like you can't replace being on the floor, you know, and in the gym. And, but one of the ways that we can maybe accelerate the learning is through some of the, um, the imagery. Okay. Um, let's think, is there, um, okay. Can you recall a time when you were, what it felt like when you were at your best? Um, I would say, well, I'm, I'm automatically going to basketball and volleyball. So in basketball, I would say it was probably like my junior year. I broke my hand and I came back. Go back to the moment. A particular moment when you were at your absolute best. I feel like we were playing UCLA at home, actually.

What were you wearing? My basketball jersey. What color? White. It was a home jersey. What color? White. Okay. It's a home jersey. What shoes? Some white and red Naggies.

What was the hardwood like? Forgiving? I don't know. Yeah. And I remember I had broke my hand, so I had this little gooey pad on my hand, and I had it all taped up. And it was like somebody let me out out of the gates and I just went for it. Like, it was like, I was a horse on a racetrack and I was just like running up and down the fastest I've ever been. And my coaches were like, what in the hell happened? Cause I hadn't

played a game for like, I don't know how many games I missed that season. I think I missed 10 games that season. And so it was like the first game back. And I just remember getting up and down the court and like making everything around the hoop and just like everything was flowing. I was like, give me the ball every time, you know? So I was in basketball. I'd say in volleyball. But that might be, we could stop there. That's a placeholder for all heart and fire, right? That's the experience that you go to when you're like, that's what it feels like when I'm fully resonating. That's cool. Yeah. So then the target I think becomes how can I create that feeling even when I don't have a broken hand and I'm not on that wooden floor and I'm not in that gym. Like how can you create that feeling today? Right. Yeah. Oh yeah. Okay. Um, what, there's a phrase that, that makes a lot of sense to me, which is, um, there's a standing civil war within me, the inner critic, if you will. And sometimes it's a really gnarly battle and sometimes it is something that is not so difficult but do you have an inner

critic do you have that experience as well always yeah what is what is the theme or noise that that that is most consistent in that critical voice i would say lately it's been a lot of emotional stress for like undue emotional stress around things I can't control. So it's like things I feel like I can change and I really can't. I need to let them go. So it's like this constant awareness around what needs to be fixed. Like something's not good enough. Yeah.

And I have all this stress around it and I know I can't fix it. So that's, I don't know if that's something that's really an internal struggle. It's just, I know I'm now becoming more aware of it and I need to. As opposed to embracing what is now and working on getting better, which is your whole model of your life, which is that progression, right? Like, okay, this is what it is. Okay. How can I make this better as opposed to why is it, um, there's a brokenness. It's not going to be okay if I don't fix it. Yeah. Is that part of, well, yeah, I think it's more of like externalizing, like thinking that I can, I can fix problems that aren't mine. Oh, sorry. I missed that. Yeah. So it's like, it's like this more of this idea that I have, there's, I want to fix this and I want to fix that.

And I want to get enmeshed into things that I just should just leave alone. So I don't know if that's it. That's not really internally, but in, in terms of internal battle, I think it's well lately. I mean, the other part of it for me is the internal battle is always finding or getting the hamster wheel to stop there they go and so that that's the the next question i want to explore with you is what is the what are the steps and processes you do to switch on your ideal competitive mindset um it's it's actually bringing my attention, narrowing my attention to what's at stake in front of me.

Got it. So. Sorry. What's it feel like when you are at your best? No, no, no. No, I said with your mind, I mean, your mindset, like, what is that mindset like? Cause earlier you talked about like, let me out of the cage, right? Is it, I guess I can answer this, try to answer this myself. It sounds like it's not slanky and it's not like chill and like a slipperiness to how good you are, but it's like this fire, like you've talked about earlier, but there's an aggression, like there's an intensity in you when you're at your best. Yeah, there's a desire for more. There's a hunger for more.

There's a passion. There's something eating at me that I need to be – something needs to be fed. Okay. So let's go through a couple of questions here on a scale of 1 to 10. Okay. So 10 being high and 1 being low. Your ability to switch on to that mindset we're talking about. Nate?

Your ability to switch off post game post competition whatever post intense pitch you know zero being the yeah like no i can't switch off like my mind just oh like a two okay so you can do that yeah no no i'm saying i can't oh no that would be off oh yeah thank you yeah yeah so too i can't i can't switch off your ability to manage the internal noise as of the last three years it's been like a one not so good yeah this last probably six months i've been a little bit better i'm like at a four probably but yeah the last three years it's been a one and if you have the awareness of the inner dialogue if you could wink at that it's really cool just that would be awesome yeah just wink at it like i see you yeah you know i guess you know like i see what you're doing here and just wink at it like grin

and see if you can play with that just a little bit like wink and grin and just and then so that thought you're just saying goodbye to it and then come back to now whatever like whatever it is a smell a thing a do or whatever it is like come back to now. Whatever it is, a smell, a thing, a do, or whatever it is, come back to now. And sometimes now there's a step in between, which is another thought. But okay. Your ability to lock in and focus when it's dangerous. I think I'm a nine. When it's boring.

Oh, I'm like a zero. I'm a negative four on that one. When you feel pressure. When I feel pressure, I feel like I'm a seven. What brings you pressure? Myself. Keep going. It's all, it's all internal.

It's that hamster wheel that doesn't stop. I have that hamster wheel going probably 99% of my life. Saying what? Saying there's something more to do. There's something going on. You've got to do this. You've got to do that, which then leads to the, I've got to fix something and everything. And so I, I've, I've, I've got this, I've got to do this or I've got to do that.

Or I've, or I've got to help somebody. Every, everybody that comes to me, I've got to help them. And I just have this ego that needs to just shut up pretty clear all right your ability to lock in and focus when you're doing something that's emotional risky um ability to focus when it's emotionally risky yeah i'd say six six okay um Okay. Um, are you motivated? Your, your motivation by external rewards?

Oh, I'm yeah. I'm pretty motivated by external rewards. Like eight probably. Motivated by internal rewards. The way it feels to be. Probably six. Six.

Um, your fear of failure. Lately. It's been a lot more like, especially with volleyball and the fear of failure? Lately, it's been a lot more. Like especially with volleyball and the fear of serving. And it's been like at a 10. Is it more? That's pretty high.

Yeah. Well, it's specific to my serving. My teammates would tell you it's like a 12. It's bad. I'm self-sabotaging. It's that bad. But lately, I've been managing it. I've learned that it's like a 12th. It's bad. I'm self-sabotaging. It's that bad. But lately, I've been managing it. I've learned that it's a managed thing.

There's a couple-step process. Imagery would be really cool for that to inoculate yourself to become familiar with what it feels like for you to be just on point. And the second is to be really clear about the one, two, three steps before the serve to put you in that aggressive, intense fire in the eye feel. And who gives a fill in the blank, whether it's in the net or out, like you just, your whole focus is to let it rip. And then when you do that, you trust your whole kind of body of work. And then when you have that conjure up, then you just pick, you narrow your attention to just one spot. And it's like, I'm letting it rip to get to that thing. It goes in the net, fine, because you know what?

I'm really good at what I do. Next ones are going in. And so if you have one, two, three things that you do to conjure up that fire in your eye and then you hone all of your focus and attention on one spot that you want to get to, there you go. It's the negative self-talk what's that but you can't have negative self-talk if you are saturating it with that feeling and the and all of your attention driven to that one place that you want to go to right yeah so stop thinking about technique don't think about the angle of your arm or wrist or any of that stop stop all of that and drive conjure up that that feeling that you want to have when you're at your best and then

the laser focus of what you want to do with it it's relatively simple you just need right now it's like yeah yeah yeah you're it's not easy so then you have to have some sort of methodology to get it back on track right play with that will you will you on social keep me posted on this yeah yeah okay um uh what is your fear is it the fear of looking bad of consequences or loss the feel of coming up short it's like an embarrassment yeah so look looking looking a certain way is it letting others down or looking bad um i think it's more looking bad looking bad there you go but of course it's letting my team down yeah too your fear of success one to ten fear of success i didn't know that was a thing yeah it's all about your eyes i've never heard

of that we'll put a zero next to that okay yeah um uh one to ten love of music like how important is music to you oh like a 14 like it's a lot. Yeah. I love music. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm a big fan of all music and it, it just goes straight to my heart. And your heart's important. Yeah. Spirituality. 10. Practicing spirituality. I want to say it's a 10, but it's totally a six right now. Okay. I know it's important. So it's a 10 in importance but in terms of how i actually do it how well i do it it's like a six how could you get to a seven um by taking my minute or 20 minutes a day i was just getting quiet as we talked to about it yeah to do it how important is science? One to ten? I'd say an eight.

Breaking rules? Breaking rules? I do it a lot. Are you a rule breaker? Yes and no. In terms of lifestyle, probably not. I speed a lot, actually. I live in California. Everybody speeds. Rationalization. But when it comes to breaking rules, I'd say like I'm at a seven. Seven.

Yeah, I'm open to it. I'm okay with it. So you take risks. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Being self-critical, one to ten. I'm not good enough. This is not good enough. Probably an eight. One to 10. I'm not good enough. This is not good enough. Probably an eight, one to 10 on

relationships. I feel like I'm a 10 having great habits. Nine. What are one or two, three habits that you have on a regular basis that have allowed you to be one of the best in the world? Um, I think it's this, um, constant desire. I have the one is this constant desire to be healthy. So, and what that means to me is like eating healthy, um, exercising. Um, so that concept of, of habitually being on, so making great choices of movement and nutrition. Yeah. Yeah. And then recovery and having the habits of recovery that putting things into my schedule, because I know I'm not good at doing them just off the cuff or by my, by myself. So adding things to my schedule. So time management, I think is a habit that I have. That's like, I'm just narrow laser focused in. I don't know if that's a habit, but it's a skill of mine.

So having a schedule is really important. And maintaining that schedule to the T. Eating well, time management, and probably allowing myself to balance with my joys of life that are not involved at all with sports. Did you say you're planning spontaneity? Is that what you're saying? I guess. No, I'm talking more like hanging out with my friends at a dive bar, like that kind of stuff. Like spending time enjoying life. That's as equally important now than ever. One to 10 sleep. Oh, 12. How you doing on it? Not good. How many hours a night do you get? About, uh, on average six, six. Yeah. But like

my good day is seven. I just moved. So I'm where are you best at? What's that? Like how many hours are you best at? Let me say that better. Um, how many, when are you best at? What's that? Like how many hours are you best at? Let me say that better. How many hours? When are you best at? What number of hours over a week's time do you feel you're at best? At your best? I'm at my best when I've gotten like nine. Nine.

I think, yeah. Or eight or nine. Something like that. Yeah. So you got some fatigue going on. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. For sure.

I already know that. How important is caffeine? Oh, my gosh. That's's 12 phil's coffee have you ever had no oh my god plug for phil's man they're they're a bay area company and they single brew every cup it's so and i it's a treat really is when i get that but coffee is every day for me every day, um, are you more street savvy or more analytical street? Oh, easy question for you. Are you, do you prefer a slow paced environment or do you prefer a fast paced environment? Fast. Okay. And then we, we talked about, you know, rules versus risk. If so, you're a risk taker. I actually think I'm more rules. Well, you just said before you gave yourself a seven, but if you, if you had the first person – you had the chance to be the first person to go to Mars, OK?

And you had a 50% chance of coming back alive. Nope. Wouldn't do it. OK. The answer is done. Why wouldn't you go? I would say – so the reason I say I'm a risk taker is that I actually don't mind breaking rules. Like I'm OK with it as long as the end goal is accomplished.

Yeah. That's different than risk for you. Yeah. OK. Got it. OK. it as long as the goal end goal is accomplished yeah that's different than risk for you yeah okay got it okay but if it's like going on an airplane like that's a little jump plane or whatever nope no thank you i love my life i want to stay alive got it okay need for control oh 10 i don't know where the highest i always need control and then um so then, so then here's like a great scenario for you react on your

feet. Cause you're street savvy. You're in a fast paced environment, you know, you're breaking some rules, but the risk is not, is not difficult. And then you're in a position where you feel like you're leading or in control. Like that is an ideal kind of scenario for you. And then the other side of that switch would be, can you be functionally and maybe even optimal when it's a slow pace environment, you have to, you know, use analytics. You can't break

any rules and it's really risky, you know, like that's part of the evolution, right? I think for all of us is know our preferences and tendencies and then work on the other stuff as well. But at the world stage, it's for me, it's all about asset management. Know your strengths, blow those out the water, focus deeply on those, and then also be able to shore up that you're not an absolute disaster when kryptonite is around. Yeah, there's a lot of self-talk when this pace slows down where I'm like, okay, you can do this. Focus. Do you like being around people that are positive or critical? Like that's not good enough. Or like, come on, you got more. Positive. Yeah. And then do you coach other people that way?

Are you more positive? I think so. Do you coach yourself that way? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There you go. There you go.

And then do you make fast decisions or do you ruminate and think about things? It depends. There's Ashley's lawyer answer. It depends. It depends. It depends on the circumstances. It really does. Ultimately, is it a big life decision that I like to really look at all angles of the decision?

But most of the time, I would say I make a relatively fast decision because I tend to listen to my heart. It all comes down to? Oh, man, this has been the hardest question that you've asked. Um, it all comes down to how bad you want it. Cool. If you had the chance to do it over again, if I had the chance to do it over again, I wouldn't. Success is? Success is being, it's not being the best over time. It's like success is what you believe it to be. I don't know.

You cringed when you said it. I don't know. Yeah. I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, uh, you haven't kind of formulated what that means.

No, I just, were you successful as a two time Olympian best in the world, silver medalist? No. Oh my goodness. No, I'm not there yet. That's why I say i'm like success is more like an internal thing it's do you believe you're successful or not

cool is it your belief i don't know so if you just kind of respond to this word love is great. It's what we all hope for in life. And I think we all survive off of it. That's a cool phrase. I don't know. We survive off of love. My vision. These are so tough.

I wish I would have got to play. There's that self-talk again. I know. My vision is to help people in some way, shape, or form. I don't know. My vision is to make others believe in themselves. That's pretty cool. Yeah. Yeah.

So it is giving. There's a giving part of you that's evident. Yeah. I want to. Yeah. I am. I'm strong. You have such credibility.

Like when you say that and like when you said it, it was so obvious. Well, the rest of it or all the other answers have been questionable. That one I got. You know that. Yeah. That was rad. Because you have to earn that statement. You've earned it. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, you're welcome. What do you hope the next generation gets right? This was an interesting one. I was just listening to that yesterday. I hope the next generation gets work ethic right. I don't know if you've ever heard that but i think in one of these

answers but i feel like i hope they get the work ethic right because work ethic is what creates so much strength in people because again they're the by working you're you're getting challenged in and of itself that is rewarding and if you're just working. In and of itself, that is rewarding. And if you're just working for some aim or thing later, it can be as soon as you get that thing, it's like, well, why work again? Yeah, I was thinking of the funny answers. Like, I hope they get right the fact that we could all have like the Jetsons cars and that kind of thing. That would be awesome. Or how to install a new leg on thing. That would be awesome. Or how to install a new leg on somebody. That would be great too. But in reality, it's like, yeah, I really hope they just

get the work ethic right. What are some of the like really cool advances in medicine for prosthetics that are coming around the corner that we can pay attention to? Uh, I wouldn't know. I actually am one of the functional. I believe in function. So to me, actually, the advances would probably be that there's more widespread running legs for kids these days and for people getting growing up. How expensive are they? They're like $15,000, the base level. The carbon fiber together with the actual socket design that's customized, it's at least $15,000. And so the widespread access to having a more designed leg for what you want to do athletically,

I only had one leg for anything for the first 20 years of my life. And now I go to Scott Sablich Prosthetics and they provide me with a leg for each thing that I need. There you go. prosthetics and they provide me with a leg for each thing that I need. Every day I have my pretty leg that I can wear heels, which I don't need. And I have, you know, um, an athletic leg, which is, um, for basketball and I still play. And then, um, I have running leg. For, if you could think back to, um, or no, no, no, let's do it this way. What, what guidance would you give anyone that's listening that has a daughter that ha that's tall or short or doesn't look like other people? What would you is different in some kind of way, right? And, and she and her parents and family or others noticed that difference. What, what guidance would you give them?

I would say two things. First one is just love on them. Love on them and make them feel beautiful and make them believe they're beautiful. Because I think that's the number one thing that, I mean, my parents did that for me, you know, but girls are so mean. I think all kids are mean these days. So we, we are so harsh girls to girls. We're so harsh on each other that embrace and love each other for how beautiful we each are in, in everything that we do. But then the other is, um, I think my parents didn't allow me to be sad or mad for long about what was happening to me and didn't allow me to lash back out. So somehow along the way, I learned that it wasn't effective to fight back. It wasn't effective to get mad at that person, it was better to just in not internalize it, but just hear and know that that person is a mean person or whatever they're doing is because of insecurities

or whatever. And just to be with that and, and not like, you know, like kids getting fights these days or parents go fight battles for their kids. Don't do that. Don't let's, you know, they are who they are and we're going to keep moving on. Put your head that. Don't let's, you know, they are who they are and we're going to keep moving on. Put your head down and focus on what's ahead of you and being successful. And so I think loving them, making them feel beautiful, and then teaching your child not to be angry or physical or any of the really negative things around bullying or I don't know. What a joy this conversation has been for me. So what a gift that you give others by the way that you can articulate what you've come to understand.

Thanks. Yeah. I've loved this conversation. I have too. I told you I was curious beforehand because I was just like, I don't know what's about to come out. And I hope it's all good. It have too. I, I told you I was curious beforehand because I was just like, I don't know what's about to come out and I hope it's, I hope it's all good. It helps me. And then I can go back and reflect, you know, about what, you know, what I do is I listen to these, like you and I are in this conversation. I'm going to listen to it like three or four times. It's really, really three or four times. Yeah. So it's not for editing, but then like there's,

so I listened to it once afterwards when it's about to go out. And then when I'm like a geek, as soon as it comes out, I listened to it again. Yeah. And yeah, so that's at least three times. Okay. Yeah. Last question, actually two. How do you define or characterize or articulate mastery? I believe mastery is a persistence of success or persistence to seek

the knowledge of something you love the most over time. Yeah. Yeah. The persistence to seek the knowledge of something you love. Yeah. Over time as it changes because something whatever it is you're seeking to master out is is always going to change and so being able to learn all the angles of it and want and having that desire to seek all the all of it the good the bad the ugly where can people find out more about what you're doing? So my social media, I keep up with relatively well, KS Holloway, H-O-L-L-O-W-A-Y. It's at Twitter, Instagram. You can find me on Facebook. Say it again, KS? Yep. K-S, S as in Sam Holloway, H-O-L-L-O-W-A-Y. I keep up with all my Facebook and Twitter and Instagram. I'm going to really enjoy following your path to real.

Cool. Yeah. I'm excited too. Yeah, that's really cool. Okay. So those of you who have found this to be valuable, go find on social everything that she's up to and then make sure that you keep us posted on, on tracking, you know, what the things that you're doing as well. And, and yeah, I'm really looking

forward to it. How much I'm struggling with the vision, the imagery. Let's not post that yet. Like maybe it's going to be great. Okay. And then, um, for folks listening, uh, thank you. And thank you for, um, being part of this journey and this curiosity. And go to iTunes if you haven't already done so and find us there. Subscribe. It's great. And at some point, we're going to need to put in some sort of way to monetize this. And so that right now, it's just a bleeding experience of paying an engineer and paying some design and all of that, which is just totally great because it's a wonderful experience for me. So those of you listening, go to iTunes, help build some of this so we can keep it around so it's not a continual bleed at some point. And then if you write a review, it's a help. And that's a little tricky to do on iTunes. And that just helps with keeping it current on iTunes.

And then you can also go to findingmastery.net. You can hit me on Twitter at Michael Gervais. And then also Facebook is Finding Mastery. Okay, so thank you. Thank you. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no-cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're

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