Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Katie Zaferes, #1 Triathlete in The World

Episode Date: September 11, 2019

This week’s conversation is with 2016 Olympian Katie Zaferes, the #1 ranked triathlete in the world.Katie recently captured her first ITU World Triathlon Series title.The world title is years in the making for Katie, who finished fifth in the ITU World Triathlon Series in 2015, fourth in 2016, third in 2017 and second in 2018. A native of Hampstead, Maryland, Katie began her career as a cross country and track and field athlete in high school.Katie competed in track and field and cross country at Syracuse University, where she qualified for the NCAA Division 1 Championships in the 3,000 meter steeplechase.Upon graduation in 2012, she entered USA Triathlon’s Collegiate Recruitment Program, which became the start of her professional triathlon career.In recognition of Katie’s ascent, USA Triathlon named her its 2017 and 2018 "Women's Triathlete of the Year."Katie now has her sights set on qualifying for the 2020 Olympic Games.In this conversation we discuss how she’s approaching the upcoming Games differently than her first appearance in 2016 – getting the results she covets while still finding joy in what she’s doing._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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are on the path of mastery and the same issues they struggle with. So have I, and I bet so have you. And I think that we can find ourselves in every one of these conversations. These conversations are with extraordinary people, not just extraordinary doers. And with that in mind, we want to better understand what it is that they are searching for and to use these conversations as placeholders to reflect on what it is that we're searching for as well. And every conversation helps me to better understand really what it means to be human. And especially in modern times, what it really means to be me. And I hope the same is happening for you. The whole idea is to use this information to apply it as we both continue to commit

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That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash finding mastery. Now, this week's conversation is with 2016 Olympian Katie Zafaris, the number one ranked triathlete in the world. And mastery is a commitment of time and curiosity with a relentless commitment to hard work. And it's not about an outcome. And in 2015, Katie took fifth in the world championships, fourth in 2016, third in 17, and then came in second in 2018.

And so in recognition of Katie's ascent to eventually capturing the number one ranked spot, USA Triathlete named her in 2017 and 18 Women's Triathlete of the Year. So she's no joke to understanding what it takes. And Kitty now has her sights set on qualifying for the 2020 Olympic Games. And this conversation is about her approach in life and sport, how she thinks about world-class competitions

like world championships and the Olympic Games, and how she's committing to living at that intersection of joy and achieving on the world stage. And with that, let's jump right into this week's conversation with Katie Zafaris. What's up, Katie? Hello, not much. Happy to be home. Oh, where have you been um i think i wrote on my like entry thing for customs uh canada germany france japan and that oh uk and then now we're home in california for a little bit and over what type of span are we talking about?

Like you've been out there for three weeks, six weeks? So we were in, I left California like early May and went and the first stop was Japan. Jeez. Yeah. There is something obviously special that happens when you get to see and smell and hear and feel other cultures and their foods and their dialect and the sounds. And then there's, you know, it shifts perspective. And then it also, I think, reminds me at least of how special home is, wherever that is in the

planet, like wherever home is, there's something really special about that. So when you travel, what is it like for you? Because you're working, this isn't vacation mode. So you're working. What is travel like for you? Um, I mean, I love, I love the fact we travel so much and, uh, I'm very fortunate because my husband, um, he's, he comes along, he trains with me. He, he can work from anywhere slash. He also works with, um, ITU, which is the International Triathlon Union. So when I have a race, he's actually working at doing the live, live interviews and also photography. So we have a, it's nice to travel because like, they always say home is like where the heart is, and he's with me. So that makes it easier. And also just the nature of my sports with swim, bike, run,

getting to explore each place just via what I do is really, really nice. I don't see, I guess the main attractions, but I've almost enjoyed more seeing kind of like the country of the, like the countryside of things or things that people don't necessarily go to when they book their vacations. But then still like being home is just easy. It's just nice, like coming back. And when you hear like English and go to the grocery stores and I know what to get, I'm like, oh, like I just, there's one part of my brain that doesn't have to function quite as much anymore. And it's like, that's comfortable. You know, it's amazing how much resource it takes to figure out where the new light switch is and how it works. And the, just the small little things that you don't realize, like it really takes some

brain calories to figure that stuff out when you're on the road, which is great. You know, I'm not nervous or complaining, but there is a tax that takes place there. And so let's, let's do this really quickly though. I didn't think we're going to start here, but let's start with travel and how do you manage travel? And I want to think about this from a performance standpoint, psychological standpoint, recovery standpoint. What are some of the ways that you organize your inner life and outer world to do well as a competitor, maybe even create a competitive advantage if you're able to do so? Yeah, well, I've done it for a couple years now. And I think I've gotten better with being on the road for a majority of the time. So for instance, like last year, I think we left in February and didn't get back until

November. So, um, it was a long time on the road. And, um, like I said, it's nice. Cause I have like my husband with me, but also, um, I think just embracing the uncertainty of like our schedules and where we're going to be and, be and really figuring out what I want to bring with us and like luggage terms. And what's like, oh, I just traveled with that for like this many months and never used it or never put it on. But then other things I'll travel with people would be like, you don't really need that. But like, I actually enjoy having lots of pens or I can't think of like something off the top of my head that's just kind of like extra for other people. I spent time with a musician who, you know, is on a world tour and it's like a city, maybe a city two nights. Like L.A., you'll hit, you know, the Staples Center and then, you know, two nights in a row.

And so when she travels and so we're doing some work in her hotel setting and she's got, she brings blankets and pillows and because she's on the road for four months. And so she's got this really amazing little internal world that she brings with her to make home as best she can in the hotel rooms. And so it sounds like you do a little bit of that, but you're obviously packing a little bit leaner than probably what she is. Yeah, probably packing leaner. But yeah, like it's funny because I'll bring like pictures of like, like printed out photos and like cards that people have given me. And there's some things that I'll just travel with the entire time or like, um, like printed out photos and like cards that people have given me. And there's some things that I'll just travel with the entire time or like, and they they're smaller, so they don't like take up very much space. But if I, if it brings me joy and I use it, then I'll take out

something else and maybe have like one less pair of training clothes or something just so I can have a like little comfort, um, comfort thing, I guess. Okay. So you mentioned joy and comfort. Let's talk about those two a little bit. How important is joy in your life and how important is comfort? Because what you do is really uncomfortable, right? As a triathlete, getting up on the edges in three plus disciplines is really hard to do and sustain that. So can you teach a little bit about joy as a framework for you and comfort?

Yeah, so I would say, so I'm relatively new to triathlon. I did my first one with my dad in 2007 after like high school, but I just kind of did it with him and didn't think of triathlon as being a career of any sort. So then 2013 is when like I first went professional and that's, so it's been like a learning curve, I guess. And when I first started, it was really easy to just have joy and just take in all the experiences because it was so new, uh, that I didn't really think about it so much. And like everything was uncomfortable, but at that time it's kind of expected to be. And I think like a couple years in, when I was getting ready for the Rio Olympics,

I made triathlon more of like a job focus where I had these goals and these expectations for myself. But I kind of lost like the joy of like, for instance, traveling. Like I love to travel and that's one of the things I love most about where triathlon was taking me. But then going into the Olympics, I think it kind of stressed me out more. And I didn't find the joy as easily, or even with Tommy, with my husband, I didn't like, I was more like snappy towards him. And so after the Olympics, uh, I didn't have the result I wanted. I finished 18th and was really disappointed. Uh, I realized one of the things I needed to find was like the joy again. And that I had to find that balance of enjoying what I'm doing,

but also obviously working hard and like you said, being uncomfortable. But that's kind of what I've been able to find these past couple years since then. It's just like being able to enjoy every place I go, take it in and enjoy the process more. And yeah, just, I guess, make everything an experience that I'm going to remember even after my athletic career is over. Okay. All right.

So you've got, let's pull on that thread just a little bit because you're heading into Rio, the Olympic Games, and you're doing really well. It sounds like you think you underperformed at an 18. And one of the things that took place to me, but what I'm hearing is that you lost the joy. Okay. Now, was that because of the,

the way you were thinking about the games or was it because you were fatigued and burnout? You know, was it stress about the games? Was it a fatigue burnout thing? Or was it something else that was just kind of grubby and grindy that was askew during your training and lead up? I don't think it was burnout. I think it was a mix of like having the expectations for myself and trying to balance like lots of different emotions at one time, which weren't all negative emotions, but like not really knowing. There was the unknown of the Olympics. And in my head, I'm like, this is any other race.

Like it's, I'm doing the same thing. I'm swimming, biking and running, but, but still there was a, a difference to it. And I think what I didn't do a good job of is like, I, I kind of was like, telling myself like it's any other, like it's any other race, but I wasn't focused on like necessarily the process of that, but I was just kind of telling myself overall. So, um, it more felt like I was just repeating it to myself more than actually believing it and focusing on like, okay, I'm going to like have a, like get out fast on the swim. I'm going to do this on the bike and focusing on my strengths. So, um, I think just during that lead up, I was like, I was more concerned about things. I wasn't focused on my strengths, but I was focusing on my weaknesses and making them better, which is good. But I lost sight of like what I could do or like on a – even if I was the athlete I was on the Olympic – on our Olympic race day.

Can I add a thought to that? Yeah. Okay. So there's – There's – yeah. only understand, but maybe add something if I could, is that there's two basic ways to think about championships, whether it's Olympics or Super Bowl or World Games or whatever. And that is, it's like every other race. The rules don't change. The length of the course doesn't change. The weight of the ball doesn't change. You know, there's not an extra defender

if there's a, you know, a team sport on the other side. So it's all the same. And even the consequences, you know, the physical consequences are the same, meaning that there's not a sniper in row 14 if we make a mistake, right? Okay. So yeah, thank goodness. So intellectually, we can understand that. And so that's one way to think about the games.

Then the second way to think about the games is, it's the biggest media circus in the world. And you better be ready for being pulled in lots of directions. The hype is like no other hype. And let's prepare to meet the hype. So let's call that option two. And option one is like I said, it's the same as it always is. There just is more people there. Who cares? So it sounds like you had option one as what you wanted to do, what I was just talking about. But then something took place in the preparation for that that wasn't true. And if it's not true, it's going to get exposed.

And so to say it is way different than to go deep and actually plan and believe in it. And I love what you just said, because you're like, okay, intellectually, it's the same, and I'm going to treat it like the same. But then you didn't prepare accordingly, because I don't know, maybe you saw the Olympic rings, or maybe you had 14 new interviews on pregame day that or the day before the day that you weren't quite prepared for. So teach teach me what happened there. Well, I mean, I would say the Olympics is what I've learned like the most from like it was definitely a the biggest influential part of my career. Well, to this, to this point. And it's because

when I, when I was going into the Olympics and like after, like I made it seem like any other race. So, um, our, our race was like the second to last day of the Olympics. So the only thing that I think that was after our event was the marathon. So all leading up to my race day, I just was focused on the race, focused on preparing for it. And then, and then it was over. And when it was over, what I realized is that I didn't take in like the full experience of the Olympics. I didn't take in that, how awesome it was like that I was there and so once my race was done and my results were

finished like there that's that's what happened that's all I could do and then it was like well now the Olympics is over like I went I went to the closing ceremonies which was really a cool experience but in hindsight which is like the best site is I was like, oh, I wish I would have taken in more of the Olympic experience and had had more of it. OK, well, even if my results don't turn out well, I'll still have this great experience that shaped me. And I mean, it has shaped me and I'm really thankful for that but also there's things that if or when uh I make Tokyo 2020 um yeah you're like I've learned from you already um that I would that I would do differently based off of that, just so I know I can go away from this Olympics. And it's a balance because obviously I'm there to perform and get the most out of myself. But I

think for me to get the most out of myself, I need to appreciate where I'm at and all that comes with that. Do you think you can have both? And what I'm talking about is joy, the childlike experience of being in awe and wonder and flowing with it and being like, wow, look at that athlete. Oh my God, look at them. They are like, and you know, filling the story about how amazing this team or athlete is

and look at the rings and look at people being stoked like that childlike awe experience. At the same time, be the adult wise wisdom, you know, alpha competitor. So that the reason I ask you that, because that's a sophisticated approach and I've been fortunate enough to work across, uh, with folks across the last three games, uh, summer games and two winter. And there is one athlete in particular that sticks out that was flat out the best in the world. And it came at the cost of family. So then the third Olympic games was about this dual approach. I'm going to be in love with my family. I'm going to be in love with the people I'm around. I'm going to love the experience. And oh, yeah, guess what?

I'm bringing that alpha dog competitor into every training session, into every recovery mode, and into every performance. So what I'm asking is do you think you can do both? Because it's not available for everybody, right? They just can't do both. So do you think you can do both? No, I for sure think I can. Like, I think that's one of the ways I've been moving towards since Rio. And I think it's not, I wouldn't say it's like a linear thing.

I would say it's kind of going back and forth and ebbs and flows with different moods and days and trainings and races and things like that but I would say like my progression towards that is way more balanced than whether if I like solely focused on um joy versus versus performance like to me they both go hand in hand. I love it. And I perform better when I'm happy and when I feel good about the person I am. Because going into Rio, I think I was just way more stressed. And so I'd be grumpier towards Tommy or my coaches or teammates or things like that. Versus now, I just feel a lot more, um, I w I want to say controlled, but I'm not sure that's the right word. Um, but I can manage different emotions

more and be like, okay, well I was grumpy this day, but that doesn't mean I have to be grumpy every day or even all day. Yeah. Yeah. Findingy is brought to you by Momentous. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday, what you put in your body matters. And that's why I trust Momentous. From the moment I sat down with Jeff Byers, their co-founder and CEO, I could tell this was not your average supplement company. And I was immediately drawn to their

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It sounds like you've been practicing that dual path, which is joy and performance, you know, and so you've been practicing it. Yeah. And I, well, I just learned how meaningful it is to me because what I've realized is sport is sport. And I, I love what I get out of myself trying to be the best and I love how it's like shaped me as a person and made me hit head on like the emotional and mental side of things as well but I've also realized these experiences like I want to have takeaways that extend further than sport I want to look back on these times and not just have to have a good race, but be like, Oh, I went to, um, went to Montreal and my family was there. And my, um, my sister and brother-in-law brought my nephews and it was the first time they saw me race. And one of the, one of my favorite moments was my nephew. Who's

about to turn four, him saying like, as I, as I put him in the cab to say goodbye, saying, I gave you lots of kisses because, because you're my best friend. And like taking the time to be with family on races, because before I would be like, no, I can't see you. Like, like I didn't want to have those two worlds collide. And now it's like, okay, like managing energies, but like I bring more people into my experiences and my races and just this journey, I guess. Okay. What is the guiding thought for you in your life about being the best woman you can be? My guiding thought would be that I'm a work in progress and I'm evolving. And that means I'm just trying to, I don't think every day I'm not the best I can be. And I don't think, yeah, I think there's some days that are better than others, but I think I'm getting better with everything, like emotional, physical, mental, every side of things.

And I guess that's like my guiding principle is that I can be better. Okay. So now this is going to sound a little bit like a jerk, but let me be, let me just play a cynic for a minute if that's okay. Okay. Okay. Because you said something like that going to Rio, going into 2016 games, which is like, you know what?

The Olympics are really important. They're wonderful. I'm super excited about it. I'm treating it just like it's every other game, but you didn't believe it. It wasn't deep. Right. And so it was, it stayed up in the head and not necessarily kind of dropping down into a deeper part of you. So, so if I'm a cynic and I say, because actually this is true when you said it, I just, I like melt it. You know, I was like, oh my God, like, yeah, like that's it. That's a reminder to me, Katie, like the good stuff, like stay grounded, stay open, be hungry, be foolish, be a work in progress, be a beginner, you know, be, be, be all of those things. It's not about the doing, it's about the being first. And so, and then the

doing actually takes place later. And you know, like there's space to do the doing at the highest level. So, so if I'm the cynic and I say, okay, it sounds good, Katie, but is it real? How do you demonstrate? You don't have to prove anything to me, but like, how do you demonstrate to yourself that it's real? I think because it's always on my mind and it's something I'm always working towards. And when I don't do it, I realize it now. And like when I go into like, I would say the difference between my approach to Rio versus my approach now to like qualifying for Tokyo is that I have more, well, a, I have more experiences under my belt. So I've seen the different ways I deal with things and I've seen the successes and I've

seen the parts that I've changed. So when I go into things, I feel like, Oh, like I can draw on different races or different workouts that I didn't. Now my like bank account, I guess is just a lot bigger. And then also, I've seen kind of I've played on both sides of like figuring out like, oh, this is like, directed to like, taking in everything and enjoying everything. And this is performance. And then now I mesh them together where I'm like, okay, like I, I said, I set goals a lot. And so in my planner that I have, it has like today's focus for each day. And like, sometimes it'll be like time management or manage energy, which to me means like, okay, like if I see my family or see, or, um, like want to go explore something like how am I going to do that in the like constraints that I put for myself of like also be feet up in a hotel room to make sure that

I'm not like wasting energy like I guess I'm really intentional about where I spend those energies and how and like where my cutoff is. Okay. And that's the practice, right? So the intention is the beginning seed. And then you water that intention with practice, you know, throughout the day. And it sounds like you are, you've mentioned energy management a bunch. And for me, energy management comes in two forms. One is like the actual resource, the full body of resource that you have throughout the day. So it's a finite, limited resource that we replenish at night and we replenish in micro cycles throughout the day.

So that's the first way to think about it. And the second way is that in that side of that micro cycle replenishing of energy is like arousal regulation, right? So efficiency of thought and arousal regulation is how we do the micro cycles. And then the macro cycles are nutrition and sleep, right? And so when you talk about energy management, are you saying both? Or are you talking primarily about like the full body resource meaning the energy the macro approach i'm probably more talking about the micro you are yeah and probably more just on like different situations and scenarios of like um if i go to a course preview and

the amount of time that i'm like in the water to do like my swim warmup or whatever, it could, could be like 20 minutes. But if I like chit chat and end up being there like three hours, I'm like, Ooh, like that was a little bit too much to like too long, um, like prior to an event. And so like, I think that would go more with like the micro side of things. I actually hear that last piece being the macro, right? Because yeah, but then, but the inside, the micro would be when you arrive at the course and, and, and you're doing a walk through or swim through it, that you, if you're, if you get the little elevation, right? Like arousal elevation, you feel your heart thump a little bit like, okay, tomorrow or

two days from now, this is where I'm going to be. And having that awareness to take a couple of breaths to calm back down. And so that you can practice being calm. That's like a micro. Another micro is like, you recognize that you're saying to yourself, okay, nephew, was it nephew or niece? Nephew. Nephew.

Okay. Nephew. Yeah. Thanks. Thanks for that. But gosh, I got to go. And you go, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. This is totally micro. And you're like, wait a minute, hold on. Let me look at his eyes. Let me look at those cute little lips that he gave me a kiss on my cheek and like, okay, let me, let me get that. You know, that's like micro. And the macro is like, okay, listen, I go from 20-minute session where it's on. I don't need it to be three hours. So I'm going to go home or get there later, get there earlier, whatever, and manage that 20 minutes rather than the big block of time of three hours. Yeah. Got it.

Yeah. So it sounds like you're doing actually both. Yeah. Okay. That would make sense. Do you do breathing work or any type of awareness enhancing work like meditation, mindfulness, journaling? Sounds like you like just visualizing races as they come up. So once one event ends, I'll start visualizing the next one. But then if something's going on or if I'm feeling overwhelmed, then I try to take like minutes just to do like regular um like body relaxation mindfulness i guess like

i have a headspace account but i kind of go i would say i go in and out of uh my allegiance to well not my allegiance because i always believe in it but um, just my routine of doing it. I do it. Between meditation and imagery. Well, just like, I would say imagery I do more regularly than like just pure, like breathing meditation. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. And then do you practice the breathing stuff throughout the day or is it primarily reserved for you know when you're sitting on a pillow uh primarily either sitting on a pillow or during training i don't know if that's the same as what you're asking me but just like sometimes when i'm training just like getting like if i'm getting overwhelmed or at the like heightened part of, uh, what I'm able to do and,

um, like, like the hard stuff then to bring it back. And like, before I get overwhelmed and bring, bring back, breathe my, like breathe my way through it. Uh, I guess a specific example for that is for me, uh, on the bike is when when what has challenged me the most in triathlon and my comfort through like different skills and going fast down like downhills or cornering and things like that. bike to bring myself back to the moment relax my shoulders kind of like reset me from like being pretty fearful to like uh mainly like loosening my hands and stuff because like the more tense i get on the bike the more dangerous i become basically yes you do yes yeah so i that's where i do a lot of like, yeah. Like I'm really intentional or not, not to just keep using that word, but really aware of your body. And so then you're using your breathing to manage it. And then, you know, one of the other benefits of mindfulness, as I know you recognize, is that it helps you become aware of your thoughts that eventually do sometimes in short order and sometimes they take a little bit longer. They change your physiology.

So if you have one thought like, oh, this is a scary corner, it doesn't mean all of a sudden you're going to the death grip. You know, but if you go, oh, this is a scary corner. Oh, my God, I don sudden you're going to the death grip, you know, but if you go, oh, this is a scary corner. Oh my God, I don't know if I can do this. Oh my God, am I going too fast? Wow, this curb is really close and the people are out, you know, all of a sudden now it's like this train of thought that's led to a physiological change. And so, okay, Katie, I love this with you. Are you better at picking up cues from your body or cues from thought? Right? Because there is a little bit of an inner loop between the two.

Body changes thoughts and thoughts change body. And I'm more inclined to say that thoughts drive body and behavior. But there is an interlocking loop between the two. So where do you pick up the signal better, body or thought? On the bike, definitely the body. I think I just, I realized how gripped I am. But also, I would say that's a change. Like, I would say I was more thought-based, and now I'm more body, aware because now I feel like I can take my scary thoughts on the bike and I'm able

to work through that. So then I can go straight to like physical relax, like physically changing what I'm doing to prepare for like that corner or, um, like reset type thing. I don't know if that makes sense. Yeah, it does. It does to me. Okay. And then if we go way back to 2016 and, you know, it sounded like you were, you headed into the games with more stress to use your word. And so, right. What was the thought or thought pattern that was creating that stress because intellectually again you had the thought like it's just the end of the game it's just another games and I know how to do games it's just another event I know how to do event so what was that stress pattern the thought pattern well I think I wasn't focused on enough specific things going into Rio so it kind of like my thoughts were just kind of like sporadic and

like I don't remember being like super stressed but I don't remember being really like focused on something either and so one of the things with Rio is for our course, there was this really steep uphill and everybody talked about the uphill. And then when I got to the course for the bike, this is for the bike. And when I got to the course, we did the uphill and then there was the downhill that nobody talked about, but that's what scared me. And I think we had the Rio test event and I'm pretty sure it was at that that we were practicing it. And I just cried because I felt so scared of going down fast and doing a turn. And I think that coupled with like higher pressures of for both the Rio test event where

I was trying to qualify and for the Olympics where I was trying to have the best performance I could. And I got, my thoughts were all channeled into that one downhill, like of like, I mean, my race is like two hours and this downhill would be not, not, not a significant amount of time. Um, even though we did it eight times. It was still probably, what, maybe like two minutes in total of the race. But it consumed me. And or like that was a major part of it. I guess I was so fear-based, whereas now I still work hard to improve my weaknesses, but I have an underlying feeling of confidence always, no matter what situation I'm in, of my abilities to handle anything and to be adaptable and to figure things out, even if I have a weakness. Okay. Well, like I also have a lot of strengths. That's what's up. I mean that when you say that, I believe you. Right. And so some of the way my

antenna work is that I'm always listening to like, what sounds like it's ringing true and what sounds like it's a new thought and what sounds like it's a BS thought, you know, it's like, and so when you said that last piece, I really believed you're like, yeah, I've got some things I'm working on, but I've also been in really hard situations and I got lots of skills. And it sounds like going into those games that you were focused on the one section and didn't have a great plan, an overall plan, which is really powerful. Going in with a crisp plan, knowing that it's going to change, but having that plan is really important. If you could change one thought, replace it, work with it, say hello and goodbye to it, install a new one, whatever framework you

want to think about about thinking. But what would be, and this is easy with hindsight, but what would you have changed or what are you going to have going into the next games? I think just like, it's kind of a combination thought, but just that I'm ready, I'm prepared. And I'm, well, I guess this is a lot of thoughts. They always are. Those slippery little invisible things. Yeah. And yeah, I guess, I mean, I think it's just, I'm ready.

Like, and in I'm ready, the one that's like the hello, goodbye is like you can't handle this. Okay. So let's stay with I'm ready. I'm ready for? Anything. I love it. You know what I say to myself? I'm ready for whatever.

And fill in the blank, explicitive. Is that the word explicit? Yeah. I'm ready for whatever you got. Right. And I'm talking to mother nature. I'm talking to other humans. I'm talking about scenarios.

I'm ready. And really what that is, is like, I'm ready to adjust. And that's, that's where we get found. That's where we figure out who we are. So why, why do we, why are we so afraid of it? Because it's fricking hard. It's so much easier when it's easy. Yeah. why are we so afraid of it because it's freaking hard it's so much easier when it's easy yeah well i think also i i felt like for real it was like a perfection thing maybe just like not that it had to be a perfect race but just like that i wanted to do the best i could and like

i didn't want to let myself down and now I go into races with like a lot more of an explorative mindset of like uh like I'm gonna try this and like it might work out it might not but I won't wonder what if or things like that and by having like kind of changing the frame of like what I think about going into races or what I think like the result will be if I have a bad race or something doesn't go well or something is that it's not as scary to me, which doesn't mean I don't want to do well, but like it's more fun. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day. And Cozy Earth has become a new part of that.

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is that your model has shifted from performance-based only, like a silo of performance, which is needing it to be, quote-unquote, kind of perfect, letting you down, maybe letting other people down, maybe letting a little ego down. Maybe there's some other stuff embedded in there. There is ego, yeah. Yeah, right? Like what people say and think. And then shifting it like, okay, listen, I took an 18th. What were you expected to take? some other stuff embedded in there. Yeah. Right. Like what people say and think, and then, and then shifting it, like, okay, listen, I took an 18th. What were you expected to take? Were you expected to podium? Well, that was my expectation. I mean, yeah, I'd, I'd podiumed in races leading

into that race. And I just won my first, uh, world triathlon series. So like the bit, our series of races at the like highest level before the Olympics, I just won my first one like two weeks before. So I thought, yeah, I was in, it felt like a peak mode, you know, really into that macro cycle, you know, peaking. So, okay. And then that, that constricted you, got a hold of it, and then you tightened up. I don't know if the corner was bad or not, but you just couldn't get free, it sounds like. And then, so you got this fun, free, joy, balanced approach to execution at a high level, and then also being smart about energy management and being able to have a good time as you go.

Okay. So all of that being said, it sounds really great. What happens, what happens if you take an 18th again? Well, I can tell you, well, okay. Not, not in the Olympics, but, um, my last race, I just, I just finished 35th, which was, I, my first part of my season was four wins and one second place for all the races leading up to this past weekend, which was disappointing to say the least. Background information. A girl crashed in front of me, so I went down behind her and then got up, fixed my chain on my bike and kept going and never could make it back into contention again. But it was really disappointing. And I had to work my way. I had to work my way through that. With like, at first, it just felt like the emotional part was all consuming. And when you

said ego, the reason that I like, or that, that pulled to me so much was because a lot of it was ego for me. A lot of it was, I finished 35th. Like, like that's like my, it's going to ruin like my rec, like my, all my, a lot higher finishes for the past like three years. Now there's this like blemish on the record. And then as I kept going through reflecting what and talking to like coaches and Tommy and things like that is that I realized, okay, like, yeah, that did happen. But then I got up on my bike, I rode up to like, the chase pack, which was not the front pack, but I rode up to a pack I then ran smart because there was a relay the next day and I ran strong and smart but I didn't there was like

pieces that when I look back at it as like oh this that number doesn't really reflect the takeaways that I can take out of that race. So the, yeah, that's a really cool thought that the outcome's not going to be the lens that you view the growth from. That's a, it's a pretty cool thought. I've never heard anyone say it that way. Well, I've lived, I just lived it. It's fresh. That's really good.

That's really good. Okay. Okay. So I'm getting like this really clear image of you, which is a bit more like the fastest dolphin in a pack, right? Like nimble, fun, loving all over the place, but not all over the place, but like can play and be free, but also is one of the fastest in the pack. The leader of the pack really can go faster, stronger, more nimble than other people. And it's having a great time. Like that, that's just kind of this image. And I

don't know where it came from, but it's just part of it. And then there's the other side, like sometimes it's good to be a shark now. Sometimes like, you know, like I got big teeth. Like if you're going to kind of swim with me, like be ready. I might strike at any point. And like, you know, like I got big teeth. Like if you're going to kind of swim with me, like be ready. I might strike at any point. And like, I don't know why I'm mixing these, these, these ocean animals for you. Cause we're in Santa Cruz right now. There we go. Perfect. Yeah. Okay. So like, do you have that other side, you know, and if not, there's no judgment on it, of course, but I just want to know if there's that other side, which is like hardened and steely and like a refusal, like that type of deep fortitude. I mean, I think I almost more identify with that part more because even though I want

to get joy out of what I'm doing, like I wouldn't say if you saw me at a race, you'd be like, oh, she's the one having the most fun right there like specifically before the race I almost like I do things that bring me joy but like outwardly I would say um I probably seem more like pretty focused and like radar, like radary, I guess. Um, which to me doesn't mean I'm not enjoying myself, but I'm not, I guess I'm not like prancing around or, um, and I'm having fun with other people. Yeah. You know what? I'm glad we talked about this cause it's a weird little metaphor about animals, but I'm glad we talked about it because I was getting a different vibe. So now I'm getting like the shark that has this really kind of fun, playful spirit. But like,

as soon as they get to the, I don't know, the feeding ground, like it's on. Yeah. Like I feel like, so what, with like the, my last race that I had where I was 35th, like what made me most upset at first, like at first with that, and I mean, still kind of now, but was that I, like when I crashed, I lost a lot of time. And what upset me is that I couldn't make up for that. Like, I wanted to be able to dominate and like, oh, like I crashed, like that's okay. Like I can ride a minute in like four laps, like up to the front group and then I can run for contention. But like, instead, I mean, I did make progress, but then like with running, I mean, with the run, like I like to finish as if I gave everything. And, um, I ran, I would say strong, but not hard because I knew I

was racing another event the next day, but that's like a really unfulfilling way to finish a race. But I think like when I look at all the different parts of it, I can see like, okay, like that was the right decision, but because of like the, I guess, shark mindset, like that didn't satisfy me. Like there's, there's no satisfaction in that. Yeah. Okay. All right. So let's, let's quickly go back, right? Let's pull way back into early life. Where'd you grow up? What was it like? What order, birth order, if you've got siblings, what was the economic system like? What are the lessons learned? Like, let's go back, bring me into early life. So I grew up in Hampstead, Maryland. I, my mom, my dad, and then I

have two sisters, one sister who's older than me by two years. And then my other sister is seven years younger. So not because I don't love her, but she didn't really impact my childhood so much just because of the age gap. And a lot of her growing up happened after I went to, um, college and such. So, but my family, like mom and dad, they say I was very hard headed and a difficult child. But I say it was always before I could do much damage because it was like before the ages of like 14, 13, 14. It was just I guess I I don't know. I can remember having arguments with my dad.

And like if he gave my sister like this look she would just kind of like be quiet and like listen but like it didn't affect me whatsoever and um what was that about that's cool i don't know i i mean yes i'm not sure why i was so, I don't know. I guess, I don't know if I'd use the word defiant, but I mean, um, just not easy. And all right. But if like, I want to pin you on this one a little bit, if I can, like, okay, what is that? Yeah. I'm well, I don't know because I was very, like, in school I would listen and be a good child. But then to my parents, like, I don't want to say I had a lack of respect only. I guess that's an ego thing. But, like, I wasn't intimidated and I was just me, I think. And I didn't, uh,

like, like they would sit me in a chair for timeout and I would scoot the chair, but I would listen, but I would scoot the chair to like wherever I wanted or like, um, my dad told me, my dad told me not to do something. And if I, I did do something, like he was going to put soap in my mouth and I just went and put the soap in my mouth. And then he got mad at me because of it possibly being toxic or whatever. Cause I guess it was a threat and not something he would have like actually done. But that was, those were like some of my actions. Okay. So it's, it's like definitely boundary pushing. Yeah. Right. Within the safety of your parents. Like, I don't know if they were, um, it doesn't sound like, it doesn't sound like they were hostile to you. It just sounds like you felt safe and yeah, that you could push up against the boundaries and you're trying that out. Are you still a boundary

pusher? No, what's funny is like, I am like, they've instilled fear in me of breaking rules. Like I hate breaking rules. It makes me so uncomfortable now. So I guess you still, you still have that buck the system thing inside of sport, which is like, I'm going to break some rules, not, not like legal rules or anything like that, but I'm going to take my mind and body as far as I can go. Yeah. But I don't think that's the, like, my problem is with like, like the rules rules. Like if I do something wrong in a race, like I would be, i'm like mortified yeah like i hear that yeah like i'm still really yeah or like i mean not something wrong but like

uh i can't think of an example but like yeah just any any rules like about like oh if you're not supposed to do that like i don't i don't to do that. So you're more of a rule follower than risk taker. Yes, definitely. And then is those, does that, do those risks do, does that hold true with financial risk? I would say so. Yeah, for sure. Actually, physical risk. Yes, but. Well, yeah, I think anyone would say yes for me, but like things I would see as risky probably aren't as risky to anyone looking at them, but like for the, what's coming to mind is like for me on the bike and like going faster and, um, try like trying to push my boundary more, which I don't think is high risk. It's just trying to be better. Um, but I do like, so for instance, if I do crash, when I've like pushed my boundaries of going like too fast or something,

I bounce that back very quickly. Okay. Um, social risk. Hmm. Depends what you're talking about. Like I like being, being wild in social settings, like breaking those rules. No, no. Okay. Um, um but I I'm like social acceptance of like I don't feel the need to hang out if I don't want to hang out with someone like I'll be like oh I have to go to bed at eight like I don't feel the need to be somewhere I don't want to be. Are you? Yeah. Okay. So you got good boundaries there. Are you more introverted or extroverted? I want to say introverted, uh, like, like being with people I, I enjoy, but it does take energy for me. Yeah. So you, you, you find more energy when you're thinking things over when you're with yourself or in a deep conversation with one person, as opposed to like more of a social setting is a bit more draining. Yeah. And I think that's also like mood dependent as well. Um, like, like I'll enjoy like going to

talks with like a group of people. Um, but there's like, I feel like I have like a Cinderella time where like I hit like a certain amount of time and I'm like, okay, I'm done. Yeah, got it. You know, my wife, she's got this phrase that she's been on lately. It's really funny. You guys sound like a similar temperament. And so she says, one sniff of a bad attitude and I'm out of there. She's like, I just don't have time for it.

It's just really funny. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. But it's okay. I could. We could go to for it. It's just really funny. Yeah. Yeah, okay. But it's okay. We could go to parties together. Yeah, you could relate to that. We don't have time for that. Okay.

Now you're talking about mood dependent, and it leads me to this thought, and it's an obvious bridge that is probably not completely appropriate, but what is, what is the menstruation? Um, what is that like for you as an elite athlete in, you know, endurance? So I know you're familiar with the female athlete triad. And so like, how does that play a factor? Well, for, for me particularly, I, one of the things I love coming from a running background to a triathlon is that I've always been a strong physique, bigger than most made me like, I felt like I fit in more and I feel like triathlons really cool because you can be a strong body type and feel great about how you're doing. Like, I feel like with running it sometimes it's like, Oh, you have to be smaller to run faster. Or like, like this, if you cut like one pound, that's like three seconds or I mean, I made that up, but like that, like that kind of idea. And what I like about triathlon is that you

can be like, I'm, I can be me and I'm really confident in that. Not saying like, still, there's like days I look like, wake up, I'm like, Oh, like I'm i'm not a like i'm not where i want to be or something and then i look at what and i think that's funny because like right now i'm ranked world number one and to not be confident in your like what my body has done is like katie come on like yeah yeah yeah it's complicated huh yeah like this is the body that has been doing all this. Yeah, this carriage works. Yeah, and it doesn't matter necessarily what it looks like if it produces what it needs to. So like for me, I'm like my menstruation is regular.

I would say like when you said about mood with it, like, yes, I get moody. And it's almost a relief once I get my period. And I'm like, oh, that's why. Like that makes more sense why Tommy was annoying me so much last week. Yeah. It's the pre-cycle, not necessarily the actual menstruation. Right. And I think the other part that, um, what, like I'd always get nervous about when competitions were based off of where I was in my menstrual cycle. And you know, that's a thought

that obviously men don't ever have an entertain, but it's a real deal in elite female sport, you know? And so from a lot of different functions, both from energy and mood and, you know, physiological symptoms of cramping and tension and whatever. Like, so like, like I love that we're able to talk about this and you're, you're the first person on this podcast that I felt like you're open enough to be able to explore it but it's a it is a really important issue for female athletes yeah and I mean I so I just started reading a book I'm not very far into it so I can't give you all my knowledge yet but um called But called Roar by Stacey Sims. Yeah, yeah.

Which, like, it's funny because for me, one of the reasons, like, I think I've done really well or, like, been able to challenge myself so much is because a lot of my training I do with Tommy, my husband. And I never see my being a female as a limiter to, like, what achieve. And I'll write, like, I'll try and be as strong as him on the bike. He's a lot faster than me in the swim and the run, but like, but I try to keep up with him. And, um, and then like reading the book, it's like about the differences. And so for me, it's like a balance of saying like, okay, like accepting that there are differences, but that I can still get the most out of myself and not see those differences as limitations. Yeah. So, and that, that statement holds true for all humans, which is some days are better than others, naturally based on the way that we wake up and the conditions that we're dealt with.

Because, you know, bodies are, they're not fragile, but they're finely tuned. And sometimes, you know, we wake up and we're just kind of out of tune. And so then the idea is let's make the most of this. Let's figure out how to maximize this. And maybe it's a little temporary thing, but maybe it's something I got to figure out all day long, right? Like maybe it's a, I don't know, funky little cramp in the low back or it's a stomach cramp or it's a headache or fill in the blanks, right? And so it feels like it holds true for both genders. And that insight sounds like to me, like it fits for me too. Yeah. Cause I mean, I think that's another thing that's changed probably since over the past years that I've been way better at is like, I don't have to feel good to perform well. And like my visualizations usually start with,

they start with the bike warmup and the swim warmup. And it goes something like this in my head. It's like, I'm going to do this bike warmup, but it's not going to feel good. I'm going to do the swim warmup and it's going to feel terrible. And then I continue on with the rest of the race where I do, where I have a great performance and cross the line first. But because I know from experience, those swim warmups and bike warmups don't often feel good. I prepare myself for it. And then I know I can still execute on everything else. And then let's drop into the imagery. I want to ask you some questions. Do you see it in color or is it more gray tones?

So I'm better at seeing in color if I've gone to that race and done that course I let I fill in a lot more holes I guess in my visualization so like I mean in our races there's just a lot of blue like there's blue tents there's like blue carpet there's so there tends to be a lot of blue in my visualizations. And then also, yeah, so I guess color. Color. And then can you smell it? No, I haven't mastered that quite yet. Can you hear it? Sometimes. I wouldn't say it's like the main thing. It's not the main one, one yeah uh tactiles like being able to feel like maybe even the that little irritation itch on the bottom of your feet or you know wetsuit underneath the armpit like can you can you get into that kind of stuff or slap in the water no but i'll like prepare for um like for our swims have contact. So I'm not sure I'd say I can feel

it, but I like in my visualization, I'm like, there's going to be contact and I'm comfortable with that. Like if this body hits me type thing. Okay. And then, so it's all five senses what I'm trying to get at. And I don't know which one I left off, but then can you, can you control the image, meaning slow it down, speed it up, make it like a movie that's stitched or is it more framed? And then the last part of it is are you in your body or watching? I will control it. And because like I think of – well, during my visualization, there's like sometimes where I'll like mess up the transition. And so I kind of like rewind and go and do it again. Yeah, that's what I do too.

And then what was the next question? Are you in your body or are you watching? And then can you kind of feel it from many different directions? Speed up, slow down, different angles. Yeah, I'm more in my body. And one of the things that I realized when I visualize is like I often don't have like specific people in my visualizations or like it'll seem like I'm alone on the bike or, um, running, but then at the same time, like my, my, uh, I guess narration with it, it has people. So it's kind of like a, a weird combination because there's people, but I'm not necessarily

seeing them, but I know they're there. And I like was, so I have a sports psychologist I work with and I was like talking to her about about that and she's like well as long as like you know because my reason my rationale for it is that I don't know who's going to be there with me so I don't want to have somebody that I like give a face to or like make there and then that be like a different person and throw me off like I'd rather be ready for whoever it is yeah it can be faceless bodiless and so you know it's just a shape and a form and so okay cool how long have you been investing in sports psych so before this was like another Rio change I guess um before Rio I would speak to a sports psychologist, but it would be like as need on an as needed basis.

AKA I would have like an, an issue and feel completely anxious and nervous and all of the, like all those negative emotions be like, I need to talk to someone. And so then I would seek out someone to speak to. Oh, the good old band-aid approach. Yeah. We're getting divorced. Let's go talk to a therapist. Oh, gosh.

It's a little late now. Yeah, right. Not that it's ever late. I should take that back. But I love your appreciation of that. Okay, cool. Yes. So now after Rio, I took the time. It was funny because it's like an interview

process. Like you want to speak to the right person. And I like, so I wrote an email to, uh, the like USA triathlon telling them like, these are my issues. This is what I feel like my weaknesses are like mentally. And, um, is there somebody that you think would be a good match for me in like the sports? Like, so, Karen Kogan out of the U.S. Olympic Committee. What's up, Karen? Good work. When you were going through like your sophistication of your imagery, I thought for sure you had done the work. Because most people, they can't describe it the way you're describing it or even fluidly answer those questions.

So I was like, oh, she's done work. Yeah, I've done – well, this is kind of a sidetrack, I guess. But it's funny because when I was in college and running, I was always thinking like, oh, if someone needs to work on their mind, like that means they're weak. That means their mind's not strong enough. And wow, has my like, whole viewpoint, like, switch so completely where I just think now it's like, I mean, I do the physical work, of course, but I put a lot of time into just the mental aspects. And yeah, just knowing how how incorrect I was before. I love that. I say there's only three things you can train as humans. You can train our craft, our body and our mind. Why would we leave any of

those up to chance? I don't understand. It's only because we've got this really weird model that, you know what? The fittest athletes in the world don't need to actually exercise. What? Nobody says that, right? Oh, the most mentally tough athletes don't need to actually exercise what nobody said nobody says that right oh the most mentally tough athletes don't need to do mental work nobody says that oh yeah they do that's it's weird you know that all of a sudden it changes yeah so and it's amazing how you can train it like i don't think i i didn't really know any i didn't know much before but like um one of the biggest things that has shaped shaped my like idea of like the mind is like I felt like you do it and you're like you've got it like you have like you've figured it out like you just work on your mind for a little bit and that changes everything and it's

like good to go and now I realize how much it's it's a work in progress like always and it's like good to go and now I realize how much it's it's a work in progress like always and it's not like if I visualize like that's all I need to do or if I like segment a race like that's it like Dina Dina Castor do you know who that is I don't she's a runner who wrote a book called let your mind run and one of the main like quotes that stuck out to me is that like mind mind strategies are something that you like rotate through like you don't just have one that works like one might be like last for two seconds in a race and then you go to the next one like and like you're you're implementing different strategies it's not like one. Like, and like you're, you're implementing different strategies. It's not like one, one fits all. Yeah. It's spot on because the, the oversimplified way to think about the mind

is it's the software that's driving the hardware and the hardware is the brain and the body. And who programmed your software? That's a scary thought, isn't it? Right. I know mine, you know, is patchy and buggy and unfortunately I programmed it and so did my knucklehead friends in high school. And so did, you know, like all the mistakes that my loving parents made, like that was programming in it too, you know, so like it's got holes. So I'm going to go work and it's a lifelong pursuit to, you know, to get that thing engineered in, you know, the most optimized way. Why not? Yeah. And so, yeah, I got to keep working too. Like it's, it's not like you go in and tune up once and Oh, good. The engine runs smoothly now. It's not. Yeah. Once a year,

once a year. Right. Yeah. You know, Katie, I gotta tell you, I want to honor our time, but I've really appreciated the spirit that you bring to this conversation. You feel really open and not all bound up and you got to all try to manage what people think of you. There's a freedom that you have that is noticeable and I really appreciate it. So I just want to say thank you for like, you know, reminding me and everyone listening, like that, that is so important and you're actually backing it up your philosophy. Like I'm going to, I'm looking for joy. Yeah, it's awesome. Okay. So last two quick hits, right? One is how do you think about mastery? Well, I think mastery is unattainable, but I think trying to attain it is everything, if that makes any sense whatsoever. And then when you think about why it's not attainable,

what is it that you're thinking about? Like, how are you thinking about it? I'm just thinking about it in the sense that like, if it were attainable, then it would stop, you would master it and the journey would be done. Whereas I think it's not attainable, then it would stop. You would master it and the journey would be done. Whereas I think it's not attainable, but that's what I'm trying to get to still and get better. And maybe like, but I wouldn't say that I mastered anything. I, yes. Coming from the number one female triathlete in the world yes yeah how about it okay so katie i can't wait to follow what you do i'd love to be um part of your journey from just even logging it with you from time to time you know if you could be open to coming back and and talking about whatever's happening and so we you know 2020 is coming back and, and talking about whatever's happening. And so,

you know, 2020 is coming around the corner and there's no guarantees as you know, of anything. And so I would love to follow you on this path. And I mean that from the most sincere and as well as the most like engaging, entertaining way as well. So if you're open to that, that, that to me would be a lot of fun. Yeah. My pleasure. Yeah. Very cool. Okay. And then, so the last quick hit are like, where can people find you? You know, can you give a little nod to some of your sponsors that have been part of your ecosystem supporting you so that, you know, we can, we can help there as well. Yeah. So mainly I'm on Instagram and you can follow me at K Zephyrus6, which Zephyrus, you can probably find on the website. Z-A-F-E-R-E-S.

Yes. KZephyrus, and this is Instagram, right? KZephyrus6. Six. Or on Instagram. Yes, sorry. Really messing this one up. Yeah, no, no, we got it.

We're tracking it. And I'll put all this in the show notes so that people can see it and link it that way. Yes. Sorry. Really messing this one up. Yeah, no, no, we got it. We're tracking and I'll put all this in the show notes and so that people can see it and link it that way. And then yeah. Sponsors. What do you got? Yeah. I have awesome sponsors, awesome community. And, um, first of all, USA triathlon, but then also Roka sports three, six, one for running shoes and specialize for my bikes and New York athletic club, F2C polar. Just awesome. Yeah. That's what's up.

Okay. People to be part of. I'll grab all of those links too. So people can, um, you know, they can vibe and check that out and support you that way as well by supporting those products. So I just want to say thank you again. I love your openness. You're the work you've done, the clarity I love your openness, your, the work you've

done, the clarity you have, uh, obviously the motor that you've put in, you know, the engine is world-class, but the way that you've organized your mind is beautiful. So I want to say thank you and flat out, I want to be, you know, I want to track what you're doing and, um, you know, wishing you and Tom the best. Yeah. Thank you so much. Yeah. It was awesome being on here. Cause like I said, my coach coach told me that finding mastery podcast would be a good one for me to listen to when I started my brain brain journey. Good. Okay.

I want to meet your coach too. It sounds fun. Yeah. He's awesome. Awesome. Okay. We'll make sure that happens. Okay.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. All the best and looking forward to next. Cool. Thank you. Okay. Take care. Bye. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're listening.

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